Predalien: in principle or in practice?

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

If you ask me: The PredAlien/Chet was a mutant, the Predator equivalent of the Newborn - genetic experimentation. The Preds have bred Aliens for thousands of years, and they managed to subsequently tame the Xenomorph strain they got their hands on; the Aliens in AvP were more vicious, smarter and more dangerous than the ones in AVP:R (except for Chet, but she came from the old pyramid breed) since the ones back in the days weren't as corrupted and domesticated as the ones the preds breed in this at day and age. This might also explain why Chet looked more like a mutant/hybrid than an Alien - the early genetic modification of Aliens reacted differently on Predator hosts since there is a big chance that the Predator 'scientists' used Predator DNA in order to 'solve' (more like corrupt) the genetic puzzle of the Alien(just like the humans on Auriga needed the implementation of human DNA in order to figure out the gifts of Ellen Ripley), whereas PredAliens bred from REAL Aliens (i.e. not BS Aliens) would look more Alien and lack dreads, and probably lacking the mandibles as well. Because I refuse to believe that Predator genes are more dominant than the ones of the Alien. I mean, hasn't the AVP franchise already weakened the Alien as much as it is? Now the Predators are superior to Aliens even on a molecular level (screw that!). When will the degradation and the humiliation process of the Alien stop? Mr. Perry, BS & Co have done their best to reduce the Alien into a brittle and totally harmless simple cockroach organism with the qualities of the most moronic and vegetated zombies imaginable. This has to stop!

So, yes, Chet was/is a freak/abomination/mutant/anomaly, at least until we get to see another PredAlien that looks basically the same and that originates from an Alien brood that hasn't been bred/gathered by modern Predators. Until then - to hell with Chet and her yellow pecks and floppy dreadlocks!

Also... Aliens originating from humans didn't have noses and ears; Aliens from dogs didn't have snouts, protruded canine-like jaws and floppy ears, and nor did the oxen-borne have horns... so there is absolutely no reason for the PredAlien to have dreads, no matter whether they're sensory organs or just hair.

The PredAlien SHOULD just have been a taller and slightly bulkier Alien (warrior/drone) with a slightly broader and flatter head compared to an Alien birthed from a human host ...But since all three franchises have turned into a cheap product cramming Hollywood video/computer game industry, vulgar, generic, staple and unsubtle designs seem to be a must, which pisses me off!

I Will NEVER accept any of the AVP shit we're delivered as a part of the Alien canon, and I doubt that any future Alien directors will do that either (thank god for that!). The AVP and Predator franchises can nod and hint to the Alien franchise as much as they want, but as long as the Alien franchise doesn't respond to those blatant hints/nods, well, the universe of the Alien franchise will still be safe (i.e. separated from the AVP/P one)... and Dark Horse and FOX can try to squeeze the AVP/P franchise and the EU into the bleeding orifices of the Alien franchise and canon the best they want - it won't matter. Alien is Alien.

Also: In the end the Alien franchise only suffers from being a part of the AVP/P franchise (simply because nothing in the Alien movies make any god damn sense IF the EU and the AVP/P are a part of it... and it doesn't matter how much you try to shoehorn it) whereas the AVP/P franchise only benefits from trying to be a part of the Alien franchise. The Alien franchise enriches AVP/P and makes it grow and prosper whereas the AVP/P franchise cheapens, depletes and drains the Alien franchise. It's kind of ironic that off the screen the Alien franchise is the host and the AVP/P franchise is the parasite (Predator 2 was the egg, AvP was the facehugger and AvP:R was the chestburster). You gotta love show-business, right?

[Xenomrph]

I, uh, I don't know where to begin.

I guess the short version of what would be my rambling, point-by-point response boils down to "everyone is entitled to their own option", I suppose.

[DoomRulz]

What if it isn't DNA?

DNA is deoxyribonucleic acid. That's what DNA stands for. Predators might have a genetic code of some kind that isn't based around "DNA", and as such would interact with Aliens differently.

Yet how an Alien ultimately emerges is based on host DNA, isn't it?

[Xenomrph]

Well, maybe. We understand terrestrial DNA just fine. How Aliens (fictional creatures, mind you) take host genetic material is something else entirely. Saying "host DNA" can be somewhat misleading. Host "genetic material" is possibly more accurate, since we don't know exactly how the Alien does it, or if Predators have "DNA", being non-terrestrial creatures.

Like I've said earlier in the thread, we just don't have enough information for saying things like "this is how it SHOULD be".

[DoomRulz]

So we go with what we have. And I still maintain based on how the Dog Alien was designed w/o whiskers or fur, a Predalien shouldn't have dreads.

[Xenomrph]

But like I said earlier, that makes a bunch of wacky assumptions we can't prove. Why shouldn't it have dreads? Predators and dogs aren't even from the same planet, let alone the same species. Unless you can prove that Predator genetic material somehow doesn't influence Aliens and that Predator dreadlocks aren't somehow special, why doesn't it make sense to claim that PredAliens shouldn't have those traits. And like I've said before, the mere fact that it has those traits (and consistently has them, if you look at expanded universe materials) shows that apparently Predator dreadlocks are somehow different or special, seeing as how PredAliens have them.

...unless you're just talking about the PredAlien from a design standpoint, in which case, well, uh, you have a point I suppose. Then it's just sort of people's opinions. Some people like the dreads, other people don't. It seems that enough "official" artists like the dreads since all the PredAliens we've seen in "official" artwork/movies/games have all had dreads.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

But like I said earlier, that makes a bunch of wacky assumptions we can't prove. Why shouldn't it have dreads? Predators and dogs aren't even from the same planet, let alone the same species. Unless you can prove that Predator genetic material somehow doesn't influence Aliens and that Predator dreadlocks aren't somehow special, why doesn't it make sense to claim that PredAliens shouldn't have those traits. And like I've said before, the mere fact that it has those traits (and consistently has them, if you look at expanded universe materials) shows that apparently Predator dreadlocks are somehow different or special, seeing as how PredAliens have them.

Because the PredAlien from AvP:R was a 'mutant' (you can read about this idea in my rambling-rant-post above). I can't prove that it is a mutant just like you can't prove that it isn't since you and I have fundamentally different points of view on this. I say that it is a mutant because it had dreads and yellow flesh, which it shouldn't have since the Dog-Alien didn't have whiskers and a snout just like the human borne didn't have a nose or ears. That the Predator 'DNA' is more dominant than the Alien one is just pish-posh to me, simply because it defies the nature of the Alien. I know that the AVP franchise has done its best to portray the Aliens as completely useless generic bug Aliens whose only purpose is to be cannon fodder, however, to allow that the Predator DNA overpowers the Alien one would be the final blow ("total pawnage!"), totally castrating the Alien, which is something that I can't, shan't and won't petition for or accept.

...unless you're just talking about the PredAlien from a design standpoint, in which case, well, uh, you have a point I suppose. Then it's just sort of people's opinions. Some people like the dreads, other people don't. It seems that enough "official" artists like the dreads since all the PredAliens we've seen in "official" artwork/movies/games have all had dreads.

Well, these artists are generic entertainment industry artists who draw demographically designed creatures that has to look cool/rad/neat/awesome. Their work/pieces/designs are coooool but oh so anonymous. This monster (Ms. Chet) could might as well have inhabited the world of Resident Evil as well as Lord of the Rings as the AVP universe.

It is as if they never have heard about this guy H.R Giger.

[Xenomrph]

I say that it is a mutant because it had dreads and yellow flesh, which it shouldn't have since the Dog-Alien didn't have whiskers and a snout just like the human borne didn't have a nose or ears.

You know that that's circular reasoning, right?
Your argument goes that it's a mutant because it has dreads and yellow flesh, and it has dreads and yellow flesh because it's a mutant. That's completely circular. The argument assumes its own truth in order to prove itself.

Not to mention we already addressed that making a comparison between Predator biology and dog biology is pretty silly.

That the Predator 'DNA' is more dominant that the Alien one is just pish-posh to me, simply because it defies the nature of the Alien.

I think you're going to have to expand on that.
It's also an opinion and totally subjective and not a fact, but it's still worth expanding on anyway.

I know that the AVP franchise has done its best to portray the Aliens as completely useless cannon fodder and generic bug Aliens

That's really debatable. There's all kinds of sources where Aliens completely kick Predator ass, including the first AvP movie where 1 Alien takes down 2 Predators in 10 minutes flat. Not to mention the Aliens in the second AvP movie completely destroyed a town of 5,000 people in, like, under a day.
Aside from this, Steve Perry has personally given his reasons (with specific citations from the films) to back up his reasoning for portraying the Aliens the way he did in his AvP book. Of course not everyone agrees with those reasons (hell, even I don't entirely agree with him), but the difference is he's writing the books. Of course that doesn't mean you have to like the books, either.

Well, these artists are generic entertainment industry artists who draw demographically designed creatures that has to look cool/rad/neat/awesome.

One could make the same statement about the designs for the Aliens in the other movies, too. They were artists paid to create something that was in-line with the director's vision. You might not like those designs (I know plenty of people who don't like the designs from 'Aliens', for example) but that's just your opinion.

This monster (Ms. Chet) could might as well have inhabited the world of Resident Evil as well as Lord of the Rings as the AVP universe.

I'm gonna disagree with that. I've let about a dozen co-workers borrow my copy of AvP:R on DVD and half of them hadn't seen an Alien or Predator movie in years, but the moment they saw the cover to the DVD they said "Oh hey, a Predator-Alien hybrid, cool" and knew exactly what it was supposed to be before they even watched the movie.

It is as if they never have heard about this guy H.R Giger.

It seems silly to act like Giger is the be-all end-all of Alien designs. Yes his artwork is amazing, but other people have worked on the films and added their own personal artistic touch to it, and I feel that counts for something. Sure there's things about specific designs I don't like as much, but there's stuff about some of those other designs that I think work better than Giger's original stuff, too - it's a matter of personal opinion.
Giger didn't design anything for 'Aliens'... but he loves the Alien Queen design and wishes he'd thought of something like that. Giger was initially hired to work on 'Alien3' but ultimately all his designs were rejected. In fact, his designs were more animal-like than the Alien design that was ultimately used.

[Foundationman2]

There is nothing scientific about it. Remember that the movies we are debating/commenting on are SCIENCE FICTION. If the creator wants the predalien to have dreads and mandibles and say that its because the Predator gene is dominant over the alien, then let it be so. How much do we actually know about Predator/Alien DNA? Not much, but we do know that the alien's DNA gets re-organized to fit the surroundings of the animal/human it was birthed from. If the dog survives in this atmosphere, then it will make a suitable host so that the drone can survive in that same atmosphere.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

You know that that's circular reasoning, right?
Your argument goes that it's a mutant because it has dreads and yellow flesh, and it has dreads and yellow flesh because it's a mutant. That's completely circular. The argument assumes its own truth in order to prove itself.

Not to mention we already addressed that making a comparison between Predator biology and dog biology is pretty silly.

Because that it had dreads and yellow flesh and looked very much like a Predator is the reason why I believe that Chet was a mutant simply because the Alien DNA and the DNA reflex is always dominant no matter the host (meaning that it doesn't matter from which planet the host comes from, the end result is always the same since the Alien is the "prefect organism"  ), simply because it is Alien/Xenomorph first and foremost... So, since the PredAlien looks too much like a Predator, that means that something here is wrong (out of the ordinary), inclining that Chet, most likely, was a mutant, an anomaly or just the bi-product of some Predator-induced genetic modification.

It's also an opinion and totally subjective and not a fact, but it's still worth expanding on anyway.

Of course it's subjective, just like your pro-PredAlien arguments are subjective. We both argue the way we do because our views on the Alien as a creature, movies and franchise are very different. I want 'realism'; I say less is more; quality before quantity; subtleness and artistic touch... whereas the impression I get from you (and correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am)) is: To hell with 'realism' - we want fun, fun, fun!; more is more is more is...; quantity before quality; in-your-face designs and loads of coolness!

That's really debatable. There's all kinds of sources where Aliens completely kick Predator ass, including the first AvP movie where 1 Alien takes down 2 Predators in 10 minutes flat. Not to mention the Aliens in the second AvP movie completely destroyed a town of 5,000 people in, like, under a day.

Ok. I agree with you on that the Aliens in AvP were pretty mean. But don't come here and try to tell me that the Aliens in AvP:R were tough and smart and utterly dangerous! The only one that posed a threat was Chet (who, according to me, was the mutant bi-product from the old Pyramid Prey Breed - a flaw from the early days of genetic modification/corruption of the Alien).

When it comes to the comics and the games it's apparent for everyone to see that the Aliens are the weakest of all three species, especially when compared to Predators. I haven't read one comic where the Aliens are at par with the Predators.

One could make the same statement about the designs for the Aliens in the other movies, too. They were artists paid to create something that was in-line with the director's vision. You might not like those designs (I know plenty of people who don't like the designs from 'Aliens', for example) but that's just your opinion.

I'm not very fond of the Cameron drones/warriors as well, but at least they tried to make them look like something that could have inhabited the bizarre motifs painted by Mr. Giger.

I'm gonna disagree with that. I've let about a dozen co-workers borrow my copy of AvP:R on DVD and half of them hadn't seen an Alien or Predator movie in years, but the moment they saw the cover to the DVD they said "Oh hey, a Predator-Alien hybrid, cool" and knew exactly what it was supposed to be before they even watched the movie.

Which kind of proves my point - the PredAlien design is blatant, superficial and vulgar, but most of all cheap since it's basically based on the idea that people are stupid, so let's make the design as obvious as possible - take a Predator and make it resemble to an Alien (or was it the other way around? - does it matter?).

I'm absolutely sure that people would've grasped that the sole 10 feet bulky Alien warrior/drone, with a SLIGHTLY flatter and broader head, in the movie in fact was the PredAlien.

It seems silly to act like Giger is the be-all end-all of Alien designs. Yes his artwork is amazing, but other people have worked on the films and added their own personal artistic touch to it, and I feel that counts for something. Sure there's things about specific designs I don't like as much, but there's stuff about some of those other designs that I think work better than Giger's original stuff, too - it's a matter of personal opinion.
Giger didn't design anything for 'Aliens'... but he loves the Alien Queen design and wishes he'd thought of something like that. Giger was initially hired to work on 'Alien3' but ultimately all his designs were rejected. In fact, his designs were more animal-like than the Alien design that was ultimately used.

I love the design of the Queen as well, simply because it looks very Gigeresque and weird. There is/was nothing generic about it. The designers of the Queen did a great job and really tried to create something unique within the boundaries of what Giger indirectly dictated.

And I don't think that the Giger Alien 3 Alien looked that animal-like. But it definitely looked more elegant, predatory, cunning and feminine compared to Kane's son that was more graceful, stalker-like, lurking and masculine in its appearance and demeanor. Even so, I do think that the final design isn't that far off from the one that Giger came up with. They used his design and toned it down and made the creature look more like Kane's son, but brown instead of metallic gray.

[Xenomrph]

Because that it had dreads and yellow flesh and looked very much like a Predator is the reason why I believe that Chet was a mutant simply because the Alien DNA and the DNA reflex is always dominant no matter the host (meaning that it doesn't matter from which planet the host comes from, the end result is always the same since the Alien is the "prefect organism"  Roll Eyes), simply because it is Alien/Xenomorph first and foremost... So, since the PredAlien looks too much like a Predator, that means that something here is wrong (out of the ordinary), inclining that Chet, most likely, was a mutant, an anomaly or just the bi-product of some Predator-induced genetic modification.

See that makes a lot more sense and isn't nearly as circular as the first claim you made.

whereas the impression I get from you (and correct me if I'm wrong) is: To hell with 'realism' - we want fun, fun, fun!; more is more is more is...; quantity before quality; in-your-face designs and loads of coolness!

Sort of. It isn't so much what I "want" as what I'm "willing to accept". I'm willing to accept the PredAlien designs as we've seen them, be it in AvPR, the video games, the comic books (well, one comic book - a lone PredAlien only shows up in 'AvP: Duel' and that's the only PredAlien you ever see in the comics), whatever. I happen to like the designs I've seen, even if they all vary somewhat, but they've got some common elements that don't bother me in the slightest.

But don't come here and try to tell me that the Aliens in AvP:R were tough and smart and utterly dangerous! The only one that posed a threat was Chet (who, according to me, was the mutant bi-product from the old Pyramid Prey Breed - a flaw from the early days of genetic modification/corruption of the Alien).

Sure the way it was executed wasn't as good as it could have been, but the point the movie was trying to convey was that the Predator was an Alien-infestation-clean-up specialist and an Alien-killing badass. Having him get his ass handed to him by an Alien would defeat the point. So they sort of counter that by having the Predator stomp a lot of Aliens (although they get some good licks in, ambush him a few times, and break some of his equipment) but in turn the Aliens completely decimate the town and murder everyone they come into contact with without any opposition.

When it comes to the comics and the games it's apparent for everyone to see that the Aliens are the weakest of all three species, especially when compared to Predators. I haven't read one comic where the Aliens are at par with the Predators.

I wouldn't call them the "weakest", they're just at a disadvantage in some regards, since they don't use technology. Steve Perry talked about that topic at length in his Q&A thread.
As for comics where Aliens kick Predator butt, it does happen about half the time. There really aren't that many AvP comics to begin with, when you get right down to it, and Predators get killed by Aliens in:
- AvP: Duel
- AvP: Booty
- AvP: The Web (if I remember correctly)
- AvP: Eternal
- AvP: Chained to Life and Death (contained within the 'AvP: Annual' one-shot)
- AvP: Blood Time (contained within one of the issues of the "Dark Horse Comics" serial series)

That's pretty much half the AvP comics right there. Beyond that there's Xenogenesis, Thrill of the Hunt/Civilized Beasts, Prey, Deadliest of the Species, and War.

I'm absolutely sure that people would've grasped that the sole 10 feet bulky Alien warrior/drone, with a SLIGHTLY flatter and broader head, in the movie in fact was the PredAlien.

If you didn't show it pop out of a Predator, probably not. It'd just seem like a different-looking Alien without any real reason why.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

Sort of. It isn't so much what I "want" as what I'm "willing to accept". I'm willing to accept the PredAlien designs as we've seen them, be it in AvPR, the video games, the comic books (well, one comic book - a lone PredAlien only shows up in 'AvP: Duel' and that's the only PredAlien you ever see in the comics), whatever. I happen to like the designs I've seen, even if they all vary somewhat, but they've got some common elements that don't bother me in the slightest.

Ok. Well, good for you. Wish I could be like that too, but I just love the Alien movies and the original creature WAY TOO MUCH to let it all go to waste like that.

Sure the way it was executed wasn't as good as it could have been, but the point the movie was trying to convey was that the Predator was an Alien-infestation-clean-up specialist and an Alien-killing badass. Having him get his ass handed to him by an Alien would defeat the point. So they sort of counter that by having the Predator stomp a lot of Aliens (although they get some good licks in, ambush him a few times, and break some of his equipment) but in turn the Aliens completely decimate the town and murder everyone they come into contact with without any opposition.

Yeah, you're right. The Aliens in AvP:R 'were' bad-ass technically, or at least they were manuscript-wise, but the BS weren't able to make it look that way in the finished movie. They, as we all already know, screwed up on an epic scale.

I wouldn't call them the "weakest", they're just at a disadvantage in some regards, since they don't use technology. Steve Perry talked about that topic at length in his Q&A thread.
As for comics where Aliens kick Predator butt, it does happen about half the time. There really aren't that many AvP comics to begin with, when you get right down to it, and Predators get killed by Aliens in:
- AvP: Duel
- AvP: Booty
- AvP: The Web (if I remember correctly)
- AvP: Eternal
- AvP: Chained to Life and Death (contained within the 'AvP: Annual' one-shot)
- AvP: Blood Time (contained within one of the issues of the "Dark Horse Comics" serial series)

That's pretty much half the AvP comics right there. Beyond that there's Xenogenesis, Thrill of the Hunt/Civilized Beasts, Prey, Deadliest of the Species, and War.

Wow! That's a lot of comics. I've read Eternal (that's the one that takes place in Japan, right?), and you're right: humans, Aliens and Predator are equals in this one. I think I've read Duel, but I can't remember that the Aliens and the Predators were equals in that one. Prey, Deadliest of Species and Xenogenesis ARE in no way portraying the Aliens as dangerous creatures - they might insinuate that they're dangerous but we never see any proof of that in the actual comics.

But I guess my biggest gripe with the AvP franchise comes from the Machiko chronicles and everything related to that, plus the Deadliest of Species and AvP:R of course.

If you didn't show it pop out of a Predator, probably not. It'd just seem like a different-looking Alien without any real reason why.

Does it/that even matter? I mean, no one in Alien 3 knew that the Dragon was the result of a dog host - no one there, including Ripley, would've said: "Look at the Dog-Alien Hybrid!" ...simply because it had no blatant attributes that screamed "Dog-Hybrid! Dog-Hybrid!" all over so that even a five-year old would be able to understand it without putting any effort into it. The Dragon's design was subtle, artistic and elegant whereas Chet's design was just garish, unimaginative and cheap - nothing left for your imagination to ponder about.

[Xenomrph]

Ok. Well, good for you. Wish I could be like that too, but I just love the Alien movies and the original creature WAY TOO MUCH to let it all go to waste like that.

Believe me, it's not because I don't love the movies. If I didn't love them, I probably wouldn't have gone out of my way to see them as many times as I have or support them financially by buying all the myriad tie-in merchandise and crap that I've got.

Yeah, you're right. The Aliens in AvP:R 'were' bad-ass technically, or at least they were manuscript-wise, but the BS weren't able to make it look that way in the finished movie. They, as we all already know, screwed up on an epic scale.

Believe me, no disagreement there.

Prey, Deadliest of Species and Xenogenesis ARE in no way portraying the Aliens as dangerous creatures - they might insinuate that they're dangerous but we never see any proof of that in the actual comics.

Again, no disagreement there (although to be fair, the #0 issue of AvP: Prey actually does show some Predators getting killed by Aliens when their hunt first starts). I was just listing those others to show that there aren't that many AvP comics to begin with.

no one there, including Ripley, would've said: "Look at the Dog-Alien Hybrid!" ...simply because it had no blatant attributes that screamed "Dog-Hybrid! Dog-Hybrid!" all over so that even a five-year old would be able to understand it without putting any effort into it.

However, Ripley DOES make a comment that the Alien in 'Alien3' looks and moves differently from other Aliens she'd seen, although she obviously doesn't know why.