In The News

[SiL]

It's not really an argument tho', it's just her saying "Nah games are just junk " in response to everything you say to rile you up. And you keep taking the bait.

[Cal427eb]

Yeah, but I just can't help myself.

[DoomRulz]

Yes, and she willfully refuses to educate herself on the subject, so why bother with the argument? You're not going to get anywhere.

I kind of like arguing.

[Cvalda]

Mario Bros alone is a cultural juggernaut. The theme alone is as recognizable as many classic film scores. Same with Zelda, and many others.

That's a brand and a franchise. It's kitsch, and product. It's iconic, but the actual games themselves aren't revered. It's like Hello Kitty -- people recognize it, sure, but it's not something taken seriously.

I'd argue that Shadow of the Colossus is high art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=who4_BF3Cck#ws

This game ... and many MANY others transcend the limits of books, graphic novels, and motion pictures in interesting, unexpected ways to create an experience.

I'm familiar with it. Pretty Ko Otani score. Storyline is just regurgitated fantasy stuff and is nothing new. An "experience" is beside the point. Theme park rides are "experiences", too. That's not the criteria for art.

No, I don't think you understood. I'm not talking about some shit like Call of Duty 1 and Call of Duty 2. I'm talking about how the medium itself is always improving. From Pong, to Space Invaders, to Mario, to Metal Gear Solid, and to the Last of Us. They are constantly improving in the way of being able to tell a coherent story that has actual depth to it and they are getting even better at communicating that story to us. It was literally impossible to do anything like that in the past because of the limits technology put on us. Painting, movies, and theater went through the same shit. From cave paintings to the Mona Lisa. From short sped up train robberies to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Simple stories of Greek legend to the famous Shakespeare.

Cave paintings are still preserved and studied. Greek legends are still the basis of lots of modern stories and are still widely known and important. Those old train robbery film reels are likewise preserved and studied.

Meanwhile, Pong is just a punchline and Pac Man is just more kitsch.

Yes, and she willfully refuses to educate herself on the subject, so why bother with the argument? You're not going to get anywhere.

And yet not a single argument you or Cal has put forward has any actual weight behind it. Probably because there isn't actually much education to be had with video games ◦°˚\(*❛‿❛)/˚°◦

[Cal427eb]

Cave paintings are still preserved and studied. Greek legends are still the basis of lots of modern stories and are still widely known and important. Those old train robbery film reels are likewise preserved and studied.

So are older games. What's your point?

[DoomRulz]

And yet not a single argument you or Cal has put forward has any actual weight behind it. Probably because there isn't actually much education to be had with video games ◦°˚\(*❛‿❛)/˚°◦

You can start here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_in_education
http://www.indiatvnews.com/business/india/video-games-could-streamline-education-research-14521.html
http://sheu.org.uk/sites/sheu.org.uk/files/imagepicker/1/eh203mg.pdf

[SiL]

And yet not a single argument you or Cal has put forward has any actual weight behind it.

Last time we had this discussion I disproved your argument with an example of a game that was everything you said games weren't. You dismissed it on the grounds that it was just one game (despite you never specifying there was some quantity requirement) and that it didn't do anything a film couldn't (which is laughably irrelevant).

[Cvalda]

Cave paintings are still preserved and studied. Greek legends are still the basis of lots of modern stories and are still widely known and important. Those old train robbery film reels are likewise preserved and studied.

So are older games. What's your point?

By who, exactly? Anyone important?

I'd love to read your dissertation on the archetypal symbolism of Pac Man IV or Pong or Super Mario Bros IV: Legarto's Castle (with expansion pack) and "other" classic games, and their relevance to the human experience, and why they continue resonate with scores of people throughout the world.

Last time we had this discussion I disproved your argument with an example of a game that was everything you said games weren't. You dismissed it on the grounds that it was just one game (despite you never specifying there was some quantity requirement) and that it didn't do anything a film couldn't (which is laughably irrelevant).

You come up with one game -- and only one -- out of the scores and scores of titles released over the last forty years, that marginally fits some criteria, and you call that a blanket disproval? 'Kay.

[SiL]

You come up with one game -- and only one -- out of the scores and scores of titles released over the last forty years, that marginally fits some criteria, and you call that a blanket disproval? 'Kay.

I came up with one that I played, and I'm not a gamer. Your argument was that none had done it. I only needed one to prove you wrong.

[Cal427eb]

Cave paintings are still preserved and studied. Greek legends are still the basis of lots of modern stories and are still widely known and important. Those old train robbery film reels are likewise preserved and studied.

So are older games. What's your point?

By who, exactly? Anyone important?

People that are making games. Who the f**k do you consider important? Why does it matter who studies them? Jesus, could you be more pretentious? I'd love for you to explain to me some of the finer parts of game design like level design, importance of choice of the player, sound design and art design.

[SiL]

You're a masochist.

[Cal427eb]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[DoomRulz]

I think most gamers are.

[Cvalda]

You come up with one game -- and only one -- out of the scores and scores of titles released over the last forty years, that marginally fits some criteria, and you call that a blanket disproval? 'Kay.

I came up with one that I played, and I'm not a gamer. Your argument was that none had done it. I only needed one to prove you wrong.

All you proved was that one video game could so something a film could -- i.e. troll a player in the same way Funny Games trolls its viewers and engages them on a level other than simple entertainment. That's not proving that video games are a complex or interesting art form -- you just found one exception to the rule.

And, at bottom, video games are still just games, even that one. They are no different than chess or checkers, Go Fish or Shoots n' Ladders. They just have fancier packaging and presentation. None of those are art, and neither are video games. If you think video games are, you have to think the game of Monopoly is art, because it's essentially the exact same thing.

People that are making games. Who the f**k do you consider important? Why does it matter who studies them? Jesus, could you be more pretentious? I'd love for you to explain to me some of the finer parts of game design like level design, importance of choice of the player, sound design and art design.

It's all about mechanics then, isn't it? Like building and designing a car! It has nothing to do with storytelling or creating an "experience" -- it's just refining technology, like making a new model iPod. Disposable product. Again proving my point.

[Cal427eb]

It's all about mechanics then, isn't it? Like building and designing a car! It has nothing to do with storytelling or creating an "experience" -- it's just refining technology, like making a new model iPod. Disposable product. Again proving my point.

That's not what I said at all... I'm not talking about hardware. I'm talking actually designing the game. That act in of itself is an art. Why the f**k do you keep talking about disposable products? That's what most movies are as well.