So I watched the original Space Jockey Scene last night...

[RoaryUK]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

Let's get something straight here, I NEVER once said Egg Morphing isn't canon, of course it is, I said in my opinion it wasn't happening to Dallas and THAT'S ALL. I even offer proof in an earlier statement as to why this might happen. As far as I'm concerned the Queen and Egg Morphing are as much a part of the aliens life cycle as the unexplained Queen that appears inside Ripley in Alien3. As for your arguement on the Aliens supposed 24 hour life cycle where the creature would simply die, I'm well aware this was Scott's original intention but there is no evidence to support it would happen, the sequels clearly suggest otherwise and THAT'S the part where I don't agree and therefore to me it isn't canon, ok!     

Have to chip in at this point: this thread has got me wondering - how do we know Egg Morphing is canon? Was Cameron aware of the deleted scene and, even if he was, presumably he felt free to ignore it (this being the era before the "Director's Cut"). And I'm afraid I don't see how Cameron's life-cycle does fit with it; to me "canon" is the original movies, not deleted scenes that are put back in later.

One other question: I'm sure this has been done to death elsewhere but why IS the Alien so weird and sleepy at the end? Is that because it's supposed to be dying? (would make sense if the 24-hr lifecycle was Scott's original intention, not something I'd heard before). If it's not that, why? Always found that a bit weird.

On a slightly separate point - I do disagree about the scene affecting the pacing. I think it does affect it, badly; Alien is a slow movie but the final half hour is pretty non-stop intense. Something about the scene just doesn't quite work and Ridley IMO made the right decision. It's an interesting scene of course, but I think the movie is better without it; but each to their own!

I also take canon as what happens in the original movie, but you'll find some people take whatever was on film as canon, and so it becomes ones disgression. I believe Cameron was aware of the cocoon scene but chose to avoid it because it didn't fit with his story, the Queen was much more convenient and I doubt anyone would disagree it didn't work. But many have suggested egg morphing could also still work, because the first alien was alone, some have even theorised it might have become a Queen itself at some point, so maybe the creature was going through changes and not dying, (which makes no sense in the context of the saga anyway) so the possibilities are endless really... that's what makes it so alien. As for the subject of the cocoon scene being reinserted into the directors cut, well, it certainly is a distraction I won't argue that, but let's not forget in the directors cut the scene is in the wrong place anyway, it was supposed to happen before Ripley set the Nostromo for self-destruct not after. Yes it does affect pacing, and clearly Ridley Scott left it in there to prove his point.  But if it's important and can at all be explained then it should be there, the coocon sequence shouldn't just be dismissed because of Camerons ideas, especially when there's so many other things the makers of thesemovies didn't even bother to explain but left in there. 

[red_otter]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

Let's get something straight here, I NEVER once said Egg Morphing isn't canon, of course it is, I said in my opinion it wasn't happening to Dallas and THAT'S ALL. I even offer proof in an earlier statement as to why this might happen. As far as I'm concerned the Queen and Egg Morphing are as much a part of the aliens life cycle as the unexplained Queen that appears inside Ripley in Alien3. As for your arguement on the Aliens supposed 24 hour life cycle where the creature would simply die, I'm well aware this was Scott's original intention but there is no evidence to support it would happen, the sequels clearly suggest otherwise and THAT'S the part where I don't agree and therefore to me it isn't canon, ok!     

Have to chip in at this point: this thread has got me wondering - how do we know Egg Morphing is canon? Was Cameron aware of the deleted scene and, even if he was, presumably he felt free to ignore it (this being the era before the "Director's Cut"). And I'm afraid I don't see how Cameron's life-cycle does fit with it; to me "canon" is the original movies, not deleted scenes that are put back in later.

One other question: I'm sure this has been done to death elsewhere but why IS the Alien so weird and sleepy at the end? Is that because it's supposed to be dying? (would make sense if the 24-hr lifecycle was Scott's original intention, not something I'd heard before). If it's not that, why? Always found that a bit weird.

On a slightly separate point - I do disagree about the scene affecting the pacing. I think it does affect it, badly; Alien is a slow movie but the final half hour is pretty non-stop intense. Something about the scene just doesn't quite work and Ridley IMO made the right decision. It's an interesting scene of course, but I think the movie is better without it; but each to their own!

I also take canon as what happens in the original movie, but you'll find some people take whatever was on film as canon, and so it becomes ones disgression. I believe Cameron was aware of the cocoon scene but chose to avoid it because it didn't fit with his story, the Queen was much more convenient and I doubt anyone would disagree it didn't work. But many have suggested egg morphing could also still work, because the first alien was alone, some have even theorised it might have become a Queen itself at some point, so maybe the creature was going through changes not dying, the possibilities are endless really... that's what makes it so alien. As for the subject of the cocoon scene, well, it certainly is a distraction I won't argue that, but let's not forget in the directors cut the scene is in the wrong place anyway, it was supposed to happen before Ripley set the Nostromo for self-destruct not after. Yes it does affect pacing, and clearly Ridley Scott left it in there to prove his point.  But if it's important and can at all be explained then it should be there, the coocon sequence shouldn't just be dismissed because of Camerons ideas, especially when there's so many other things the makers of thesemovies didn't even bother to explain but left in there.

Fair enough - I hadn't realised it was supposed to be in a different place in the movie, that might alter things. Ridley can be very confusing with his comments. Hasn't he even said elsewhere he didn't really like the director's cut or want to do it, and only really did it because the studio asked him to?! All that said, I hadn't seen the original scene until this thread and I do prefer that to the DC version so who knows...

I agree the weird behaviour at the end makes the creature all the more alien. I've always loved the way it behaves in that final sequence, especially that very strange close up of its hands.

[EGM1966]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

Let's get something straight here, I NEVER once said Egg Morphing isn't canon, of course it is, I said in my opinion it wasn't happening to Dallas and THAT'S ALL. I even offer proof in an earlier statement as to why this might happen. As far as I'm concerned the Queen and Egg Morphing are as much a part of the aliens life cycle as the unexplained Queen that appears inside Ripley in Alien3. As for your arguement on the Aliens supposed 24 hour life cycle where the creature would simply die, I'm well aware this was Scott's original intention but there is no evidence to support it would happen, the sequels clearly suggest otherwise and THAT'S the part where I don't agree and therefore to me it isn't canon, ok!     

Have to chip in at this point: this thread has got me wondering - how do we know Egg Morphing is canon? Was Cameron aware of the deleted scene and, even if he was, presumably he felt free to ignore it (this being the era before the "Director's Cut"). And I'm afraid I don't see how Cameron's life-cycle does fit with it; to me "canon" is the original movies, not deleted scenes that are put back in later.

One other question: I'm sure this has been done to death elsewhere but why IS the Alien so weird and sleepy at the end? Is that because it's supposed to be dying? (would make sense if the 24-hr lifecycle was Scott's original intention, not something I'd heard before). If it's not that, why? Always found that a bit weird.

On a slightly separate point - I do disagree about the scene affecting the pacing. I think it does affect it, badly; Alien is a slow movie but the final half hour is pretty non-stop intense. Something about the scene just doesn't quite work and Ridley IMO made the right decision. It's an interesting scene of course, but I think the movie is better without it; but each to their own!

I also take canon as what happens in the original movie, but you'll find some people take whatever was on film as canon, and so it becomes ones disgression. I believe Cameron was aware of the cocoon scene but chose to avoid it because it didn't fit with his story, the Queen was much more convenient and I doubt anyone would disagree it didn't work. But many have suggested egg morphing could also still work, because the first alien was alone, some have even theorised it might have become a Queen itself at some point, so maybe the creature was going through changes not dying, the possibilities are endless really... that's what makes it so alien. As for the subject of the cocoon scene being reinserted into the directors cut, well, it certainly is a distraction I won't argue that, but let's not forget in the directors cut the scene is in the wrong place anyway, it was supposed to happen before Ripley set the Nostromo for self-destruct not after. Yes it does affect pacing, and clearly Ridley Scott left it in there to prove his point.  But if it's important and can at all be explained then it should be there, the coocon sequence shouldn't just be dismissed because of Camerons ideas, especially when there's so many other things the makers of thesemovies didn't even bother to explain but left in there.

I'm pretty sure Cameron stated in an interview post release that he was glad Scott had cut the scene as it gave him the opening to add a new alien form - the queen - and use it to show something new and to drive the climax of his film.

At that time the cocoon scene was very well known as a famous "lost scene" and I believe did feature in the novelization so Cameron - even without the quote - would have known of the scenes existence.

TBH in terms of Prometheus I think Scott - much like Cameron wit Aliens - will decide what he wants to treat as cannon and what he doesn't.  So if he doesn't want the queen then he'll simply ditch that and retcon his own preferred lifecycle.

I'm also pretty sure Scott has noted although he loved the Queen concept he preferred the alien to be more, well alien, and that he still preferred the closed loop lifecycle originally planned for Alien.  I know post release of Alien Scott stated in his mind the creature had a very short, butterfly like lifecycle where it grew furiously fast, found prey and concooned them, then died.  I'm believe he stated this was why, in his mind, the creature was so sluggish at the end of Alien until Ripley sprayed it with hot gas, and why it seemed to be covered in even more slime than ever.

So I guess unless Scott has either been pressured by the studio to include at least Cameron's stuff (which seems unlikely to me) or feels he owes some respect (which is more likely but I still think not enough to sway him) he will make his own fresh decisions based at most on what was in Alien with perhaps no more than a passing nod - if that - to any of the other films, even including Aliens.

[HenryEllis]

TBH in terms of Prometheus I think Scott - much like Cameron wit Aliens - will decide what he wants to treat as cannon and what he doesn't.  So if he doesn't want the queen then he'll simply ditch that and retcon his own preferred lifecycle.

This makes me laugh.  They would be fools to exclude Aliens from the canon (and they wont).  I guarantee you the majority of the fans that ritually and habitually spend money on anything "Alien" related are fans of Aliens first and Alien second.  Aliens was a huge commercial success spawning much of the extended universe including a line of toys for younger kids.  On top of that it catered to a younger audience by giving young kids someone to relate to within the story (Newt) who are nowadays the people that grew into die-hard adult fans of the series (I am one such kid).

[fiveways]

TBH in terms of Prometheus I think Scott - much like Cameron wit Aliens - will decide what he wants to treat as cannon and what he doesn't.  So if he doesn't want the queen then he'll simply ditch that and retcon his own preferred lifecycle.

This makes me laugh.  They would be fools to exclude Aliens from the canon (and they wont).  I guarantee you the majority of the fans that ritually and habitually spend money on anything "Alien" related are fans of Aliens first and Alien second.  Aliens was a huge commercial success spawning much of the extended universe including a line of toys for younger kids.  On top of that it catered to a younger audience by giving young kids someone to relate to within the story (Newt) who are nowadays the people that grew into die-hard adult fans of the series (I am one such kid).

The line of toys came years later though.  I was a teen by the time they hit.  I believe early 90's.

And it is canon, as much as some of us wish it wasn't [i'm in that group].  Ridley quite liked Aliens.

[HenryEllis]

1

[OpenMaw]

On top of that it catered to a younger audience by giving young kids someone to relate to within the story (Newt) who are nowadays the people that grew into die-hard adult fans of the series (I am one such kid).

Where did this "George Lucas" creative brain malfunction come from? I mean no offense, but seriously. Who did kids want to be, from say... Star Wars? Or Indiana Jones? Oh riiight... Having a kid around does not automatically equal kids will be more plugged into a story.

Heck, watching Jurassic Park as a kid, I was more vested in John Hammond, Dr. Malcolm, and Dr. Grant than I was the kids. I wished the Rex had eaten them to be perfectly honest. I didn't relate to them at all.)

( I refer to it as the "George Lucas" brain malfunction because he seemed to feel his SW prequel movies needed kids for a child audience... Never mind ANH, ESB, and ROTJ didn't need kids.)

Also, while it's true that Cameron's film was a much more general wide-stroke success... Alien is absolutely a classic, and Scott is man enough to be able to say, artistically "I have this vision, and i'm going to do it my way, and I don't give a damn about "canon" or whatever these internet people are talking about."

...And I hope he does. I hope Prometheus takes canon, bends it over a chair and has it's way with it. Canon can be a great thing, but it also seems to become the crux of just about every long running series for fans. Let it go I saw. Especially after 20 years. Especially after we know this film is going to go in a very different direction, possibly leading to it's own series of films as Scott has hinted he'd like to do another one now. 

[HenryEllis]

1

[EGM1966]

TBH in terms of Prometheus I think Scott - much like Cameron wit Aliens - will decide what he wants to treat as cannon and what he doesn't.  So if he doesn't want the queen then he'll simply ditch that and retcon his own preferred lifecycle.

This makes me laugh.  They would be fools to exclude Aliens from the canon (and they wont).  I guarantee you the majority of the fans that ritually and habitually spend money on anything "Alien" related are fans of Aliens first and Alien second.  Aliens was a huge commercial success spawning much of the extended universe including a line of toys for younger kids.  On top of that it catered to a younger audience by giving young kids someone to relate to within the story (Newt) who are nowadays the people that grew into die-hard adult fans of the series (I am one such kid).

From everything I've ever read from the lips of Ridley, I seriously doubt that matters to him.  As I said the studio might try and influence but every design and look aspect of Prometheus so far, from guns to ships to costumes to sets, is clearly based on the Alien template (both what made the film and what didn't) and nothing else.  Scott I'm sure is serious when he says no aliens as we know them becuase that's played out - so I doubt he's going to stick to having a Queen or anything from Aliens just because fans like to buy plastic figures of the Queen.

I believe you're totally right about the fans and the extended Universe but I honestly think you're dead wrong if you think Scott is going to factor any of that into his film beyond the odd cute reference.

[HenryEllis]

Arrogance is the downfall of any successful director and Ridley Scott is far from infallible.  If he thinks he can denounce things the fans of an idea hold as being precious and valuable then he will loose the very thing that has made it possible for him to make another Alien related movie in the first place and thats the fans, and their financial support.  If the movie's shit, people won't go e.g. Robin Hood.

[Eagle-Fire]

did you watch it on bluray or reg dvd?

[HenryEllis]

IFC actually (on tv) they're showing Alien and Alien 3 to get people hyped up and ready for Prometheus, but I own the DVD also.

[Eagle-Fire]

IFC actually (on tv) they're showing Alien and Alien 3 to get people hyped up and ready for Prometheus, but I own the DVD also.

dude the 1st 2 on bluray are f**king amazing they increased my enjoyment all the way up to 11

[HenryEllis]

1

[Eva]

dude the 1st 2 on bluray are f**king amazing they increased my enjoyment all the way up to 11

Agreed!