So I watched the original Space Jockey Scene last night...

[SM]

I get why people want to try and make this fit into the canon with "Aliens" but it doesn't have to.

Because it's really easy to make both lifecycles fit together.

Only problem comes up when trying to reconcile Ripley having no idea what the hive in Aliens is and where eggs come from.

[Deuterium]

Dallas is really, really messed up. I get why people want to try and make this fit into the canon with "Aliens" but it doesn't have to. This is an entirely different line, and it stands on it's own as a great untraveled road of horrors.

I concur.

Question.  After Dallas requests to Ripley..."kill me", Ripley replies "What can I do?".  Dallas' final moan is much louder.  He is either saying "Ripley" (in order to empasize his demand)...or he may be saying "Quickly".

What are you folks hearing?  Either case...it is sufficiently horrifying.

[RoaryUK]

Same reason it killed Brett.

The real question is why it left them.  Maybe it knew Ripley was coming with a flamethrower so it did a runner.

survival it makes perfect sense the alien infects one host to breed from the other

Not if there's no more hosts and it follows the Riddles intention of only having a 24 hour lifespan.

Make more sense to morph all of them into eggs, which will be free to infect the boarding party when the Nostromo gets home.  They can then spread.

But if ithe alien killed Brett your arguement makes no sense because, according to you, Dallas was also being morphed yet he was still ALIVE when Ripley discovers him, so Brett can't have been dead (technically) at any point!! 

I don't think Brett was dead anyway, but Parker and Lambert were killed and I doubt it was over any worries over Ripley.  Also, it could be argued if the alien didn't know how many humans it was dealing with, why explicably kill everything in sight leaving dead bodies behind after creating just 2 eggs, when it could have easily captured and cocconed a lot more!

As for Riddles' intention the alien has a 24 hour lifespan, whatever he intended has become a moot point now, since Cameron pretty much invented the creatures lifecycle in the first 30 mins of Aliens, but for me the notion such a creature could only live a short time never held up anyway, even less so after what Ash had to say about it, who clearly knew quite a lot.

[SM]

But if ithe alien killed Brett your arguement makes no sense because, according to you, Dallas was also being morphed yet he was still ALIVE when Ripley discovers him, so Brett can't have been dead (technically) at any point!! 

Sure it makes sense.  What does the host being alive or dead have to do anything?  Other than being particularly unpleasant for the host.

I don't think Brett was dead anyway,

He had the front of his brain violently torn out.  He would've been dead with seconds.  Identical to Parker.

why explicably kill everything in sight leaving dead bodies behind after creating just 2 eggs, when it could have easily captured and cocconed a lot more!

It could've come back for Parker and Lambert after it dealt with Ripley.

even less so after what Ash had to say about it, who clearly knew quite a lot.

I don't think he knew much more than anyone else.  He was just able to process it better.

What are you folks hearing?

Riiiiiipleeeyyyy.

[OpenMaw]

What are you folks hearing?

I think it's, a very struggled, "RIIIP-LEY."

I get why people want to try and make this fit into the canon with "Aliens" but it doesn't have to.

Because it's really easy to make both lifecycles fit together.

Only problem comes up when trying to reconcile Ripley having no idea what the hive in Aliens is and where eggs come from.

I really can't agree that it's easy, SM. For the very reason you just mentioned. You can't just ignore those two things and say "oh it fits easily." Simply because Cameron flat ignored it, and Ripley just didn't know. Belive me, i'd love to have it fit in there, but it cant unless you ignore Ripley's reaction in Aliens.

[SM]

I meant the two life cycles can fit easily.  Ripley witnessing one, then forgetting about it when it could've been really handy to know, not so much.

[RoaryUK]

But if ithe alien killed Brett your arguement makes no sense because, according to you, Dallas was also being morphed yet he was still ALIVE when Ripley discovers him, so Brett can't have been dead (technically) at any point!! 

Sure it makes sense.  What does the host being alive or dead have to do anything?  Other than being particularly unpleasant for the host.

It has a lot to do with it if we're to believe the alien is a parasite, and if itsn't then why not just kill everything and get on with it....yet it doesn't! 

I don't think Brett was dead anyway,

He had the front of his brain violently torn out.  He would've been dead with seconds.  Identical to Parker.

Brett's brain is punctured not torn out, big difference considering one can be brain dead, yet still technically a living being for anything up to a few hours after a serious brain injury. At the end of the day we simply don't know he was dead, I agree his death looks identical to Parker, but for the alien to do what it does still requires a living host, something else that's also confirmed on the Quadrilogy, which is what my assumptions were always based on....until Alien3 special edition came along and screwed things up.

why explicably kill everything in sight leaving dead bodies behind after creating just 2 eggs, when it could have easily captured and cocconed a lot more!

It could've come back for Parker and Lambert after it dealt with Ripley.

True.... that's just something I don't buy.

even less so after what Ash had to say about it, who clearly knew quite a lot.

I don't think he knew much more than anyone else.  He was just able to process it better.

I think Ash knew a lot more than he was telling, the same as the company who sent him.... but hey, that's just my opinion.

What are you folks hearing?

Riiiiiipleeeyyyy.

....all I'm hearing is "kill me!"   

I think that Scott's decision to edit out the egg transformation of Dallas and Brett was a good one. Obviously, he or someone else could tell ift didn't fit the story right. I tend to believe the eggs were being transported in the derelict as weapons. This makes more sense when you consider the containment field and the warning message.

To be honest, I've always believed Scott really reinserted the cocoon sequence just to please certain people, like the fans who knew about it anyway, most had even seen it, so he goes and puts it back in there so everyone's happy watching whatever version of the film they want.  BUT, just to prove his point it didn't work, not only does he put it in the wrong place, but he also removes the dialogie that would add to the impact. I'm sure some will disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, ALIEN is such a slow paced film anyway the cocoon sequence never really did it any harm to begin with.

[SM]

It has a lot to do with it if we're to believe the alien is a parasite, and it if itsn't then why not just kill everything and get on with it....yet it doesn't! 

Why would the Alien care though?  It's not like Dallas was a threat.  Plus as O'Bannon points out, it's only two hours old and has spent it's entire life in the bowels of a ship and air ducts.  It's "ignorant".  Why didn't it just kill Lambert and "get on with it".  Took it's time with her.  Took even longer with Dallas.

Brett's brain is punctured not torn out

Yeah, a large chunk of the brain is ripped out.

At the end of the day we simply don't know he was dead

Shock, blood loss.  He's dead.  Let him go. 

until Alien3 special edition came along and screwed things up.

Not if you consider that the Ox was alive when the hugger attacked it.

[Cvalda]

until Alien3 special edition came along and screwed things up.

Not if you consider that the Ox was alive when the hugger attacked it.

Did SM just defend the AC in some capacity?

Spoiler

[close]

[RoaryUK]

And then what?  Like I said, he births another Alien, and that's dead 24 hours later.  If Parker got egged for Lambert to host, another Alien that's dead 24 hours later.  And Ripley survives anyway simply be avoiding it for 24 hours.

WHY are you basing your theory on something that isn't even canon, Ridley by his own admission tossed out that theory before he was asked to make a sequel anyway??   

[SM]

It was all part of the same idea at the time.  It went into the shuttle and crawled behind the console ostensibly to die.

Either way, I'm not "basing [my] theory on something that isn't even canon" - I'm basing it on what we see in the Directors Cut - the 24 hour lifespan thing is ancillary.  If you don't consider that canon, then I guess we're kinda done.

[RoaryUK]

It was all part of the same idea at the time.  It went into the shuttle and crawled behind the console ostensibly to die.

Either way, I'm not "basing [my] theory on something that isn't even canon" - I'm basing it on what we see in the Directors Cut - the 24 hour lifespan thing is ancillary.  If you don't consider that canon, then I guess we're kinda done.

Like you say it was all part of an idea at the time, but the script went through many changes, the alien dying was just one of many ideas left to the imagination. At the end there's absolutely nothing in the movie (or the script) suggesting this was the final outcome, further more subesquent films have gone on to explain otherwise, so why should I accept it is cannon in the first place!!

[SM]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

[RoaryUK]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

Let's get something straight here, I NEVER once said Egg Morphing isn't canon, of course it is, I said in my opinion it wasn't happening to Dallas and THAT'S ALL. I even offer proof in an earlier statement as to why this might happen. As far as I'm concerned the Queen and Egg Morphing are as much a part of the aliens life cycle as the unexplained Queen that appears inside Ripley in Alien3. As for your arguement on the Aliens supposed 24 hour life cycle where the creature would simply die, I'm well aware this was Scott's original intention but there is no evidence to support it would happen, the sequels clearly suggest otherwise and THAT'S the part where I don't agree and therefore to me it isn't canon, ok!     

[red_otter]

Not asking you to.

I meant 'if you don't conisder egg morphing canon'.

Let's get something straight here, I NEVER once said Egg Morphing isn't canon, of course it is, I said in my opinion it wasn't happening to Dallas and THAT'S ALL. I even offer proof in an earlier statement as to why this might happen. As far as I'm concerned the Queen and Egg Morphing are as much a part of the aliens life cycle as the unexplained Queen that appears inside Ripley in Alien3. As for your arguement on the Aliens supposed 24 hour life cycle where the creature would simply die, I'm well aware this was Scott's original intention but there is no evidence to support it would happen, the sequels clearly suggest otherwise and THAT'S the part where I don't agree and therefore to me it isn't canon, ok!     

Have to chip in at this point: this thread has got me wondering - how do we know Egg Morphing is canon? Was Cameron aware of the deleted scene and, even if he was, presumably he felt free to ignore it (this being the era before the "Director's Cut"). And I'm afraid I don't see how Cameron's life-cycle does fit with it; to me "canon" is the original movies, not deleted scenes that are put back in later.

One other question: I'm sure this has been done to death elsewhere but why IS the Alien so weird and sleepy at the end? Is that because it's supposed to be dying? (would make sense if the 24-hr lifecycle was Scott's original intention, not something I'd heard before). If it's not that, why? Always found that a bit weird.

On a slightly separate point - I do disagree about the scene affecting the pacing. I think it does affect it, badly; Alien is a slow movie but the final half hour is pretty non-stop intense. Something about the scene just doesn't quite work and Ridley IMO made the right decision. It's an interesting scene of course, but I think the movie is better without it; but each to their own!