How has Alien: Covenant affected your personal canon?

Started by marrerom, Aug 03, 2017, 02:14:11 PM

Author
How has Alien: Covenant affected your personal canon? (Read 9,155 times)

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#90
The creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.




SiL

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 01:42:26 AMWell, the movie doesn't say it *is* a Xenomorph either
Of course it does. It has the full Alien life-cycle, bleeds acid, two mouths -- it's an Alien.

QuoteNeither 'Alien' nor 'Aliens' showed a Xenomorph hatching from a human host fully formed, translucent or with all limbs.
Aliens gave it arms while Alien had nubs and Alien 3 shows two bursters with distinct heads and limbs.

QuoteThe derelict in 'Alien' was ancient.
That doesn't mean it crashed long ago.

Covenant is very clear when it has David walk through the process of unleashing the goo, finding insects, and then manipulating them until he ends up with the Alien. That is the story the film tells us. Everything else is fanon.

426Buddy

426Buddy

#92
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 01:38:36 AMWhat part of the film lore is a mess?

I mean taking everything into account, including AvP...

Sped up lifecycle aliens on present day earth, eggs on the Sulaco, cloning Ripley to get aliens 200 yrs later, Ripley Hybrid Clone lady, Space Jockey is really a bald guy who created humans, US government knowing about the Alien and nuking a town to stop them. The whole process leading to the neomorph. Juvinile predalien queen pukes piles of embryos into a hosts belly. Just the idea of Weyland hitching a ride to meet the Space Jockey and getting dead by B*tch slap with the head of his own android.

Now an android is actually the creator of the Alien not too long before the original film. I just feel like if I take a step back its just a big mess.

ralfy

Can't deal with reason, so starts engaging in personal insults. Give it a rest.

The point I raised is that Cameron was caught in a similar situation: in the first movie, they were thinking of things like spores and all that, and he argued that since such content was cut in the movie then he didn't use it in the second movie. That's basically it.

Eventually, Ridley brought back that aspect of the alien in the prequels, which means different life cycles and organisms are now part of the franchise. So it's no longer about just the egg, facehugger, and alien (including the queens, warriors or drones, and hybrids).

The implication, as I pointed out in another thread, is that you can have a "personal canon" if you like, but it's meaningless because something canonical is widely considered. In contrast, anything personal is stuck with you and your imaginary audience.

With that, what's canonical is what the IP holders allow. That means the ff.

There are different types of infestation, gestation, growth, and organisms.

New content can now be brought in to deal with what should be seen as discrepancies in the original films, and additional new content can be used to explain discrepancies that other new content created.

The franchise can move or expand in different directions. For example, they can come up with spinoffs like the new movie or add even more factors contributing to conflict (like AI and technology in general, similar to cloning, mutation, etc., in the fourth movie) which might take place for the TV show. From there, they can probably make TV or video versions of some of the games, comics, and novels, and even remake the first four movies. Or maybe even come up with "alternative universe" stories, like what happened to Burke, or adapting Gibson's unused script for the third movie (besides the audio drama).

The catch is that the novelty of the alien gets worn out fast, i.e., there's not much that one can say about it beyond what the four movies expressed, expect for something like a major war between the creatures and man. That's why the prequels were inevitable, with new content, like various authorized media and even the upcoming movie and TV show, used to fill in some content, e.g., the origins of the company, what happened to the colony, what happened to Amanda, and so on.




Acid_Reign161

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.

https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg

There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;




Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.

https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg

There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;

https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg


Yes, I remember it. This is when Shaw points out that "murals are changing." But it's so easter-egg like😅

SM

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 07, 2024, 02:17:35 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 01:38:36 AMWhat part of the film lore is a mess?

I mean taking everything into account, including AvP...

Sped up lifecycle aliens on present day earth, eggs on the Sulaco, cloning Ripley to get aliens 200 yrs later, Ripley Hybrid Clone lady, Space Jockey is really a bald guy who created humans, US government knowing about the Alien and nuking a town to stop them. The whole process leading to the neomorph. Juvinile predalien queen pukes piles of embryos into a hosts belly. Just the idea of Weyland hitching a ride to meet the Space Jockey and getting dead by B*tch slap with the head of his own android.

Now an android is actually the creator of the Alien not too long before the original film. I just feel like if I take a step back its just a big mess.

Well yeah if you include AvP it's a mess.

Which is why it's best not to.

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 02:31:17 AM
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.

https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg

There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;

https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg


Yes, I remember it. This is when Shaw points out that "murals are changing." But it's so easter-egg like😅

And very ALIEN-egg like 😉

SM

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.

https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg

There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;

https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg


There's also things that jump on people's faces that spawn things with long heads and gnashy teeth.

No one ever claimed David created the Aliens from scratch.

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#99
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 02:34:07 AM
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.

https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg

There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;

https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg


There's also things that jump on people's faces that spawn things with long heads and gnashy teeth.

No one ever claimed David created the Aliens from scratch.

Which is exactly my original point; he can be the creator of HIS Xenomorph (if we're calling it that) and the OG Xeno can still exist prior to him doing so.

In Jurassic Park, InGen creates a Velociraptor using blood from a fossilised Mosquito, and frog DNA. Everyone accepts that InGen scientists/Dr Wu as the creator. Everyone, including the script, calls the animal a Velociraptor (It's not). And 'true' Velociraptors still existed prior in the movies universe. 

Same principle. David creates the "Xenomorph" seen in Covenant, nobody is disputing that. I'm saying that the species was around a long time prior.  We see the progression of *his* creation in his lab. It's reverse Engineering of the black goo, itself a weaponised bi-product sourced from a Xenomorph, in conjunction with native fauna (just like the Frog DNA in JP) to create a close a match as possible).

Now is this the directors intention? Absolutely not; he's going for the whole 'the android did it'.  But is there any reason it can't be interpreted this way given the info on screen between two movies? No, it can totally work. Therefore, I stand by my original statement that the movie, as it currently stands, is open to interpretation. I'm not saying any of what I just said is right or what's it's meant to be, simply that there are enough holes to allow it. Which negates claims that's it's not open to interpretation as baseless. It would have to be air-tight for that to be the case. There are too many "what-ifs" still open. All it definitively shows is that David uses the pathogen to create something that is very very close to (what we as the audience know to be) a Xenomorph.

SiL

That is how it could be retconned, yes.

But none of this is in the movie, and the whole "black goo is derived from Aliens" is pulled entirely out of thin air.

Covenant says David made the Alien.

Something later might correct that to "an Alien", but until it does, it's disingenuous to argue that Covenant is suggesting anything other than what it clearly lays out.

That's the point.

Local Trouble

Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 04:33:12 AMCovenant says David made the Alien.

You admire its purity?

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 04:33:12 AMThat is how it could be retconned, yes.

But none of this is in the movie, and the whole "black goo is derived from Aliens" is pulled entirely out of thin air.

Covenant says David made the Alien.

Something later might correct that to "an Alien", but until it does, it's disingenuous to argue that Covenant is suggesting anything other than what it clearly lays out.

That's the point.

Fair.

As for the black goo being derived from a xeno, I was coming from the angle that the weaponised black goo in the urns are placed next to a mural depicting face-hugging parasites, a xeno-esque centrepiece, and an ovomorph. Since the weapon does not result in these things, it's entirely possible it's derived from them. Sure, we see black goo create a deacon.. by infecting a human male, that has sex with a female, that female growing a trilobite, which then grows to giant size (not in the image and clearly not intended method of reproduction; that was random chance) we also see it create hammerpedes... there aren't anything like that on the mural.. the pathogen can create all kinds of wonderful chaotic things, so why show only the central creature and face-sized parasites when the weapon does not make these or result in these? Logical deduction; it comes from these.

Still, you can't really believably make the derelict work in 'Alien' if David creates the Xenomorph. Even if you roll with the whole "the ship can still be ancient, but can have crashed recently" and hypothesise that the ovomorphs were a recent addition... you can't account for the hole in the chest of the creature that has clearly been dead a lot longer than 10 years or less or the acid burn right next to it which perfectly emulates what we saw on the Nostromo and is strongly implied to be from a Xenomorph. If a Xenomorph got the space jockey, the species existed prior to David "creating it" either way.

SiL

We have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.

Xenomrph

Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 05:00:26 AMWe have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
If we're playing the authorial intent card with Alien Covenant, we know the Jockey is meant to be real old in 'Alien'.

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