Predator experience issue.

[(Bad Blood)]

You put an awful lot of weight on physical capabilities when it's routinely the point of both franchises that it's our human intellect, quick-thinking and ingenuity that saves us.

I put weight on physical abilities because when something with 10x the strength of a human and can run 40 miles per hour. I don't care how clever you are, you will not survive if this were reality. Put a rabid armored Siberian tiger at the other side of a hallway and someone with a gun and wits on the other side. I guarantee it will not end in the humans favor.

Humans are not that clever on average in stressful situations, trust me on this. I served with many people in the army and they make routinely stupid decisions under stress, most common reaction is curl into a ball. So put these same humans into a situation where an alien is say 50-60 meters apart and that beast will close the distance before the human can rationally react and make their escape. Sure you could argue the humans we see in the film are exceptional humans under such stress, even so, the human mind is barely equipped to deal with stressful things we actually understand. Now put something in the equation that we have never seen nor understand such as an alien and you have yourself a paper human crumbling from the stress and fear.

[SiL]

I put weight on physical abilities because when something with 10x the strength of a human and can run 40 miles per hour, I don't care how clever you are, you will not survive if this were reality.

Aliens can't run 40 miles an hour. The fastest Alien we've seen was repeatedly outrun by humans.

They're also not bullet-proof or explosion proof. Armour-piercing explosive-tipped rounds and grenades make relatively short work of them.

We see panicky people in the movies. They die. The non-panicky people also mostly die, but the survivors are generally the ones who keep their wits about them.

The Alien's physical strength doesn't mean anything when it's at the other end of a hallway with no cover and you've got an explosive tipped armour-piercing machine gun. That's why they stopped trying to rush the marines and snuck in.

[Xenomrph]

Aliens can't run 40 miles an hour.

I see someone never played AvP Classic.

[(Bad Blood)]

I put weight on physical abilities because when something with 10x the strength of a human and can run 40 miles per hour, I don't care how clever you are, you will not survive if this were reality.

Aliens can't run 40 miles an hour. The fastest Alien we've seen was repeatedly outrun by humans.

They're also not bullet-proof or explosion proof. Armour-piercing explosive-tipped rounds and grenades make relatively short work of them.

We see panicky people in the movies. They die. The non-panicky people also mostly die, but the survivors are generally the ones who keep their wits about them.

The Alien's physical strength doesn't mean anything when it's at the other end of a hallway with no cover and you've got an explosive tipped armour-piercing machine gun. That's why they stopped trying to rush the marines and snuck in.

Well according to the lore it states they can run 40-50 miles an hour and keep up with predators who the lore also state can run 40 miles per hour. However true the movies show differently due to the constraints of film technology of the time. From what I've read standard non military grade ballistic rounds do not seem to do much damage to them. Which is why they used explosive tipped rounds.
  I will admit at least if the human was a one in a million mentally tough individual and also had explosive tipped rounds and grenades then sure, but that isn't going to be the standard situation. Most situations are rarely ever in favorable conditions. Especially for people on a cargo ship with no weapons with no prior survival training or a prison with no weapons etc. Let us also not forget Xenomorph intelligence is quite high despite being only alive a few weeks. Able to ambush, use cover and concealment, strategize and cut the power of a building which requires some understanding of human technology. So basically a nearly as clever as a human Armored Siberian tiger with a bladed tail and acid for blood.

[Local Trouble]

Aliens can't run 40 miles an hour.

I see someone never played AvP Classic.

Besides me?

[SiL]

I see someone never played AvP Classic.

Oh the joy of almost flying through those levels with absolutely no way to properly orient yourself. I miss that game.

However true the movies show differently due to the constraints of film technology of the time.

If they wanted the things to fly around at 40mph they could've. Especially the runner, which was not constrained by being a man in a suit. And that's the one they explicitly show being outrun.

Repeatedly.

From what I've read standard non military grade ballistic rounds do not seem to do much damage to them. Which is why they used explosive tipped rounds.

We saw some pistol rounds bouncing off at range, but also pistol rounds blowing their heads open up close. Regardless, the movies show the heavy duty military guns being used so I don't see why there's an issue with Aliens being killed by them.

I will admit at least if the human was a one in a million mentally tough individual and also had explosive tipped rounds and grenades then sure, but that isn't going to be the standard situation.

I'm sorry, do all soldiers just go into a fetal position at the sign of a threat ... ?

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to get at here. You're saying the Aliens shouldn't be losing, but then keep giving examples that aren't what we see in the actual movies. You're acting like humans keep winning wrestling matches against Aliens when they typically die -- quickly -- or are trained with specialist equipment (and still die).

Alien? Brett, Dallas, Parker, Lambert -- all toast, none of them harm the Alien at all. It just butchers them. Brett and Lambert do exactly what you say they should -- freeze. Ripley lucks out that she has the "Blow Alien out the door" button handy or she would also have been toast.

Aliens? All civilians dead bar one who could hide, trained soldiers all dead bar one who gets incapacitated, thermonuclear explosion deals with the other Aliens.

Alien3? Panicky unarmed prisoners who all die and need several tons of lead to annoy the thing.

Alien Resurrection? Amoral pirates who run into all of four Aliens and still mostly die in the process.

I'm not getting where the films show humans overpowering Aliens or doing particularly well against them even when they do have technology on their side, and a whole lot of exploding ships, power plants, etc. just to barely survive.

[(Bad Blood)]

If they wanted the things to fly around at 40mph they could've. Especially the runner, which was not constrained by being a man in a suit. And that's the one they explicitly show being outrun.

Repeatedly.

From what I've read standard non military grade ballistic rounds do not seem to do much damage to them. Which is why they used explosive tipped rounds.

We saw some pistol rounds bouncing off at range, but also pistol rounds blowing their heads open up close. Regardless, the movies show the heavy duty military guns being used so I don't see why there's an issue with Aliens being killed by them.

I will admit at least if the human was a one in a million mentally tough individual and also had explosive tipped rounds and grenades then sure, but that isn't going to be the standard situation.

I'm sorry, do all soldiers just go into a fetal position at the sign of a threat ... ?

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to get at here. You're saying the Aliens shouldn't be losing, but then keep giving examples that aren't what we see in the actual movies. You're acting like humans keep winning wrestling matches against Aliens when they typically die -- quickly -- or are trained with specialist equipment (and still die).

Alien? Brett, Dallas, Parker, Lambert -- all toast, none of them harm the Alien at all. It just butchers them. Brett and Lambert do exactly what you say they should -- freeze. Ripley lucks out that she has the "Blow Alien out the door" button handy or she would also have been toast.

Aliens? All civilians dead bar one who could hide, trained soldiers all dead bar one who gets incapacitated, thermonuclear explosion deals with the other Aliens.

Alien3? Panicky unarmed prisoners who all die and need several tons of lead to annoy the thing.

Alien Resurrection? Amoral pirates who run into all of four Aliens and still mostly die in the process.

I'm not getting where the films show humans overpowering Aliens or doing particularly well against them even when they do have technology on their side, and a whole lot of exploding ships, power plants, etc. just to barely survive.

Well my friend, they I think still had to have a man running behind the actors with a camera? So it would be difficult to portray the alien running 40MPH even if they wanted to but could be mistaken. No not all soldiers or we would never win battles but a good number of them yes, in firefights regularly its difficult to keep everyone operating rationally and coordinated. So out of 2 squads we had just 5 individuals other than myself still operational and returning fire and the others in a state of panic. I'm just stating that the average person is likely to be panicking and not operating in such a situation.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes, despite all of these people being eliminated by the alien it's still unbelievably unrealistic for someone even with a sound mind and tactical skill level to be able to finish the fight against an Alien in those situations. While it indeed took everything they had and down to the last man/woman and a risky plan they still managed, but in a real world situation it would not work out that way at all against that thing. That's all I'm saying. Granted this is science fiction and not reality so my point is rather well.. pointless lol.

[SiL]

Well they still had to have a man running behind the actors with a camera so it will still be incredibly difficult to portray the alien running 40MPH even if they wanted to.

The runner was a rod-puppet they composited onto the image; they could make it move however fast they wanted it to.

So out of 2 squads we had just 5 individuals other than myself still operational and returning fire and the others in a state of panic.

There were two squads in Aliens and only three made it out of the hive alive - two level headed and one who was literally dragged out.

I'm just stating that the average person is likely to be panicking and not operating in such a situation.

And this is precisely what the movies show so I really do not understand what you're getting at.

[(Bad Blood)]

Well they still had to have a man running behind the actors with a camera so it will still be incredibly difficult to portray the alien running 40MPH even if they wanted to.

The runner was a rod-puppet they composited onto the image; they could make it move however fast they wanted it to.

So out of 2 squads we had just 5 individuals other than myself still operational and returning fire and the others in a state of panic.

There were two squads in Aliens and only three made it out of the hive alive - two level headed and one who was literally dragged out.

I'm just stating that the average person is likely to be panicking and not operating in such a situation.

And this is precisely what the movies show so I really do not understand what you're getting at.

Ah that's what it was, well you are certainly right then.

Oh I see, I have not watched it in a while but that makes more realistic sense.

true, that they do, my point was that the main characters would not be able to accomplish defeating the aliens in those situations and it would end just like it did for the others in the film in the end realistically. However the argument could be made in their favor by saying it was pure chance. It's just my opinion though, Im not trying to convince you of anything, I just personally believe those films would end very differently if it were a real world situation that's all.

[Mr.Turok]

You put an awful lot of weight on physical capabilities when it's routinely the point of both franchises that it's our human intellect, quick-thinking and ingenuity that saves us.

I put weight on physical abilities because when something with 10x the strength of a human and can run 40 miles per hour. I don't care how clever you are, you will not survive if this were reality. Put a rabid armored Siberian tiger at the other side of a hallway and someone with a gun and wits on the other side. I guarantee it will not end in the humans favor.

Humans are not that clever on average in stressful situations, trust me on this. I served with many people in the army and they make routinely stupid decisions under stress, most common reaction is curl into a ball. So put these same humans into a situation where an alien is say 50-60 meters apart and that beast will close the distance before the human can rationally react and make their escape. Sure you could argue the humans we see in the film are exceptional humans under such stress, even so, the human mind is barely equipped to deal with stressful things we actually understand. Now put something in the equation that we have never seen nor understand such as an alien and you have yourself a paper human crumbling from the stress and fear.

Again, the films are the events where we see humans gaining the upper hand, where during the +800 years of Predator-Human encounters, Preds take heads most of the time. Just that it's not impossible for us to stand over their dead bodies either. You're not wrong, but you aren't 100% right either.

Also don't count out the human spirit either. We had many wars where the other force had superior numbers, tech, tactics, ect, but sometimes the underdog gets a huge victory. It's not that different, we learn and adapt quickly. It's why we are the biggest blokes on the block here on Earth. Even in our own mythologies of the past we killed more powerful beings than the Predator like dragons and otherworldly beings through some kind of trick, wit, and sometimes a magic weapon/tool/item or so EX: Naru using the flower to hide her heat signature and the Predator's boltgun targeting system against itself. As Dan said, it's just David vs Goliath just a Danelle vs Space Goliath this time about.

[(Bad Blood)]

You put an awful lot of weight on physical capabilities when it's routinely the point of both franchises that it's our human intellect, quick-thinking and ingenuity that saves us.

I put weight on physical abilities because when something with 10x the strength of a human and can run 40 miles per hour. I don't care how clever you are, you will not survive if this were reality. Put a rabid armored Siberian tiger at the other side of a hallway and someone with a gun and wits on the other side. I guarantee it will not end in the humans favor.

Humans are not that clever on average in stressful situations, trust me on this. I served with many people in the army and they make routinely stupid decisions under stress, most common reaction is curl into a ball. So put these same humans into a situation where an alien is say 50-60 meters apart and that beast will close the distance before the human can rationally react and make their escape. Sure you could argue the humans we see in the film are exceptional humans under such stress, even so, the human mind is barely equipped to deal with stressful things we actually understand. Now put something in the equation that we have never seen nor understand such as an alien and you have yourself a paper human crumbling from the stress and fear.

Again, the films are the events where we see humans gaining the upper hand, where during the +800 years of Predator-Human encounters, Preds take heads most of the time. Just that it's not impossible for us to stand over their dead bodies either. You're not wrong, but you aren't 100% right either.

Also don't count out the human spirit either. We had many wars where the other force had superior numbers, tech, tactics, ect, but sometimes the underdog gets a huge victory. It's not that different, we learn and adapt quickly. It's why we are the biggest blokes on the block here on Earth. Even in our own mythologies of the past we killed more powerful beings than the Predator like dragons and otherworldly beings through some kind of trick, wit, and sometimes a magic weapon/tool/item or so EX: Naru using the flower to hide her heat signature and the Predator's boltgun targeting system against itself. As Dan said, it's just David vs Goliath just a Danelle vs Space Goliath this time about.

Very well said my friend. Perhaps sometimes I can be a bit too cynical.

[razeak]

Don't they kill like 99% of the humans they face? That outlier is just that, an outlier.

I do hate when writers have humans beat them with martial arts. The sword fight in Predators has a good reason. No amount of boxing, wrestling, jiujitsu or kung fu should make a human last any more than a few seconds. It's stupid. Dutch with a full rotation backfist to the mouth just might have twisted a mandible, nothing more. The predator liked the fight in him more than any other reaction.  Yanking people into trees the way they do, they are basically gorilla strong at a minimum. Skills absolutely make a difference in real life, but even a 185lbs badass can get smashed by a 225 lbs less skilled fighter. Weight and height make up a lot of ground. It's why we have such tight weight classes in most combat sports. Just 5 lbs of extra lean body mass over an opponent makes a noticeable strength difference in many people. I competed in absolute divisions (no weight class) and it's INSANE how much different it can be. Now have a humanoid that is 200 or 300 % stronger instead of 2% that makes a difference in human interaction. It's not happening without a weapon or a trap like Dutch utilized (and only had an opportunity to use because the Predator had already beat him to a pulp and was screwing around).

The best way to view human victories in these stories is that it's literally the one in a million victory. Everybody else is meat.

Well...except for Ripley lol. At least it's believable to me though because of the weapons and a string of soldiers basically sacrificing themselves in the face of the horde. The grenade likely gave them JUST enough time to only face 1 alien in that elevator hallway. If  Vasquez gets shredded and Gorman goes on, they all get killed in that sublevel.

To follow up on weight, there is a reason that a fighter is willing to cut weight and dehydrate so much to fight at a lower class. If his opponent is closer to the weight limit naturally, the guy cutting further likely has more lean mass, and most of the weight cut is water. They weigh in at say 185, then show up to the fight at 205-210 lbs. in some cases after using a good rehydration protocol.

On the flip side, the big cuts can fatigue them if too much or not done properly. Also, if they don't rehydrate properly and are a little dehydrated, they have less fluid in their skull to absorb shock, and are more likely to be knocked out, and more likely to get hit in the first place due to delayed reaction etc. It's why they spend so much money on specialist to guide them through the process.

[Corporal Hicks]

What are you talking about? They win all the time... Up until that one human at the end.

Very true, I just wish there was a single film where they just walk away at the end.

Honestly, I want a recurring Predator character.

That right there is what I would love to see happen in any media outside the comics.

I honestly believe the only way you get this is a form of longer storytelling. A limited TV series. It works best in my mind where you have OWLF tracking a particular Predator over a longer period of time.

[SiL]

Monarch but for OWLF

[Corporal Hicks]

Exactly. And since watching Monarch, I think it would genuinely work. Just have to rework the human drama.