AVPR- LIGHTING

[TurokSwe]

You agree that the AvP films show that Aliens on earth doesn't necessarily lead to the global apocalypse warned about in the original films, thus undermining Ripley's concerns.

That's the entire argument and always has been. You are the only one struggling with this.

I think you guys are sort of talking past each other.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that Ripley is claiming that an Alien getting to Earth is a doomsday scenario. That's true, she literally says it (and Call says it too in Resurrection).

If I'm understanding him correctly, I think turokswe is saying that Ripley was mistaken. That isn't to say that Aliens are "easily contained" (committing suicide by nuke is pretty extreme), but it also doesn't mean that an Alien threat is absolutely unstoppable - if that were true, every Alien movie would end with everyone dead and the Alien(s) doing whatever they want.

THAT SAID, the first AvP movie "works" because it takes place in an isolated environment just as the Alien movies do (on spaceships, or in isolated colonies), and you could make the case that the other Predators on the cloaked Predator ship were a contingency plan to contain any Alien stragglers if Scar's nuke didn't kill them all. Predators, with their experience, resilience, and technology, are an Alien-stopping variable Ripley wouldn't consider.
Just like how in 'Alien' the Alien is an unstoppable killing machine, but in 'Aliens' you can put one down with basic firearms like a pistol or a shotgun. Shooting the Alien wasn't an option in the first movie, but that doesn't mean the Alien is literally invincible.

The scenario in AvPR is a bit of a harder sell because it presupposes that not a single Alien bails on Gunnison at any point in the movie and that they all hung out in nuke range. Yeah sure you can argue in favor of them doing it, but Aliens are clever and unpredictable and don't all follow in a single direction. A small town isn't an inherently isolated environment like antarctica, or a spaceship.

Do the AvP movies undermine the "spirit" of the Alien movies by full-on putting the Aliens on Earth at all? I think that's a different argument and I guess it depends on one's level of tolerance. Like, I've seen people dislike 'Aliens' because they felt that being able to kill an Alien at all, let alone with something as basic and conventional as firearms, undermined the "spirit" of 'Alien' even if the Aliens were still an overwhelming threat.

Thank you! I think you're beginning to see what's going on between us here. Although I would like to correct you and say that, no, I'm not arguing that Ripley was "mistaken", but I'm merely arguing that (1) she's not specifically concerned with a doomsday scenario as much as she's concerned with Xenomorphs coming into contact with humans in general and causing havoc to any extent, and that especially on her homeworld where the fear of a global infestation would of course be the extreme, and (2) she doesn't even know 100% that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will inevitably lead to a global infestation, because it might or it might not happen depending on the circumstances, and her battles against them would prove that they can be relatively easily defeated and by only a few individuals and even such that are either armed or unarmed. AVP doesn't undermine this concern at all, but it promotes the same concern and to a greater extent by giving us an actual picture of what an infestation on Earth could be like, and what might happen if they were allowed to proliferate far enough.

I've been clear from the start the AvP saying she's wrong undermines the threat that the series poses in the original films, and that is all.

Turokswe keeps going off on strange, irrelevant tangents to try to say I'm wrong while simultaneously agreeing with me.

But AVP doesn't say "she's wrong", it says she's right, and you have yet to properly explain how it supposedly "undermines" that very same threat that is presented in both the first four films and AVP and AVPR. I don't know what you mean by "going off on strange irrelevant tangents" and feel free to elaborate. To say that I'm supposedly "agreeing with you" isn't entirely honest or else we wouldn't have this conversation.

TurokSwe speaks the truth. I proudly stand with him.

Thank you! I'm glad to see people are beginning to come to their senses.

[SiL]

I've explained it several times and you keep ignoring it for strawmen and goal shifting. I can't help you if you're going to insist on being disingenuous.

The underlying threat is if they get to earth, everything is doomed.

The AvP films clearly show this is not the case.

I don't understand how much simpler it needs to be for you to understand but you are literally the only person struggling with this concept.

[TurokSwe]

Feel free to elaborate or this can just be disregarded as yet another of your regular misrepresentations of the other person.

I don't think it's a misrepresentation to say that you've written thousands of words on your website calling effectively others - who have worked in the franchise in an official capacity - liars.

You - and correct me if I am wrong - have not, so your knowledge about such things is low and while you believe it is high.  Ergo - Dunning-Kruger.  Elaborate enough?

I don't know about elaborate but it's certainly much clearer that you're just out here being personally offended by some random individual being naturally skeptical of very questionable assertions and reasoning and providing support for such confident skepticism. My advice to you would be to not take it personally, because it's not meant to, and I'm also pretty sure this is not the kind of discussion you would like to have.

[SM]

Not with someone such as yourself currently sitting atop Mt Stupid, nor capable of arguing in good faith.

[TurokSwe]

He's saying that the premise of the Alien movies is that they cannot be contained and letting even one of them get to earth would be a doomsday scenario.

Which I always found a bit unplausible

Thank you! It is an implausible premise which isn't actually presented in the films, but they establish that anything up to a global infestation could potentially occur given the right circumstances. I think Sil has taken an odd turn in interpreting the first four films by implying that a Xenomorph reaching Earth automatically and inevitably must lead to a global infestation.

[SiL]

It's not shown in the films because the point of the films is to stop that from happening

Showing it happen without the dire consequences predicted undermines that effort.

This is really not difficult.

[TurokSwe]

I've explained it several times and you keep ignoring it for strawmen and goal shifting. I can't help you if you're going to insist on being disingenuous.

The underlying threat is if they get to earth, everything is doomed.

The AvP films clearly show this is not the case.

I don't understand how much simpler it needs to be for you to understand but you are literally the only person struggling with this concept.

All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed" and the AVP films are perfectly consistent with this and perfectly consistent with how combatting Xenomorph infestations in the past four films was carried out. This is what you're not getting and I've been trying to get this point through to you multiple times by now but it seems to just keep going over your head. The only thing I need to struggle with here is trying to get this point into your head, but it seems an almost impossible task.

Not with someone such as yourself currently sitting atop Mt Stupid, nor capable of arguing in good faith.

I guess that settles that then. Probably shouldn't be wasting your time here then without contributing anything.

It's not shown in the films because the point of the films is to stop that from happening

Showing it happen without the dire consequences predicted undermines that effort.

This is really not difficult.

But the problem is again that the necessary consequences you're arguing are not actually necessary consequences in the first four films. In other words, as stated before, the films do NOT predict that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will inevitably lead to a global infestation, they predict that a Xenomorph reaching Earth could lead to anything up to a global infestation, which would merely be a worst case scenario for our homeworld. AVP definitively does show that Xenomorphs reaching the surface of the Earth leads to dire consequences and continues on that same path as the first four films and combats the same threat and addresses the same concerns, and any worst case scenario could naturally only occur if the circumstances allowed for it.

[SiL]

All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed"

I keep repeating the same thing because you keep trying to side-track it to some completely separate argument that exists only in your own head.

Ripley doesn't say "You can maybe kiss all this bullshit goodbye if we don't contain it fast enough". The warning is quite blunt. The Alien must be prevented from reaching Earth or it's lights out.

This is you being disingenuous. You're ignoring what the films say and substituting your own version, then holding me to that. I really don't care what you think the films say, or what you interpret them to mean. That's not the discussion here.

[TurokSwe]

All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed"

I keep repeating the same thing because you keep trying to side-track it to some completely separate argument that exists only in your own head.

Ripley doesn't say "You can maybe kiss all this bullshit goodbye if we don't contain it fast enough". The warning is quite blunt. The Alien must be prevented from reaching Earth or it's lights out.

This is you being disingenuous. You're ignoring what the films say and substituting your own version, then holding me to that. I really don't care what you think the films say, or what you interpret them to mean. That's not the discussion here.

Again, you go on using the same pointless tactic and refusing to explain what you mean by me supposedly going off on a "completely different track". The reality is I'm not on a separate track here, but somehow this is going over your head. Ripley is voicing a very emotional human concern that the Xenomorphs could cause terrible things to happen to her fellow human beings, she's not exclusively concerned with "Xenomorphs reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably cause a global infestation", and this is an incredibly strange and unreasonable position for you to take.

Which part of what has been said in the films am I supposedly "ignoring"? Seriously, none of what you're saying here makes any sense. You're the one being disingenuous here. You seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.

[SiL]

You seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.

I hate to tell you this, but you're in the minority interpreting Ripley's warning -- and the through line of the series as a whole -- as "we might lose, like, a city". It's been the common understanding of the danger of the Alien getting to Earth the entire franchise. Even when Earth is a hell-hole in Resurrection, Ripley and Call still decide it's better to wipe them out than let them loose. Doesn't speak volumes to them thinking some small scale infection is a likely scenario.

[TurokSwe]

You seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.

I hate to tell you this, but you're in the minority interpreting Ripley's warning -- and the through line of the series as a whole -- as "we might lose, like, a city". It's been the common understanding of the danger of the Alien getting to Earth the entire franchise. Even when Earth is a hell-hole in Resurrection, Ripley and Call still decide it's better to wipe them out than let them loose. Doesn't speak volumes to them thinking some small scale infection is a likely scenario.

I really don't think I'm in the minority on this one, sorry. Yes, the danger of the Xenomorphs getting to Earth has indeed been the common understanding here, and I haven't said anything different. You're the one insisting that Xenomorphs reaching Earth for some odd reason MUST inevitably lead to a global infestation and that they couldn't possibly be eradicated before they reach that point, and this is again an extremely strange and unreasonable position to take.

Again, the concern in the films is a very general concern that Xenomorphs reaching Earth could lead to anything up to a global infestation. Even if you fear specifically and exclusively a global infestation, that doesn't mean it will happen, and the films and other works have continually demonstrated that a global infestation is not the necessary result of a Xenomorph infestation, but it depends entirely on the circumstances and whether they are successfully taken out before that point, and a global infestation would only be the worst case scenario for our homeworld. Do you see what I'm saying?

[SiL]

You're the only person in this thread struggling with the concept being discussed.

There was an incredibly popular comic series released about the concept after Aliens came out.

It has always been widely understood that if Aliens reached a populated planet, such as Earth, it would be catastrophic. Not "woops, lost a city" bad, but there goes humanity bad.

So yes, you are 100% in the minority here.

You've already agreed AvP establishes it's not as bad as feared, and yet you keep trying to act like that actually somehow means you're right. You do you.

[TurokSwe]

You're the only person in this thread struggling with the concept being discussed.

There was an incredibly popular comic series released about the concept after Aliens came out.

It has always been widely understood that if Aliens reached a populated planet, such as Earth, it would be catastrophic. Not "woops, lost a city" bad, but there goes humanity bad.

So yes, you are 100% in the minority here.

You've already agreed AvP establishes it's not as bad as feared, and yet you keep trying to act like that actually somehow means you're right. You do you.

I'm not struggling with anything other than YOU and trying to explain things to you, but, as pointed out before, it keeps going over your head and you keep going on with the same ridiculous reasoning and acting as if I never addressed your argument. I'm well aware of Aliens: Earth War, but it's irrelevant, because I'm not arguing against the fact that Xenomorphs reaching Earth COULD lead to a global infestation, but I'm trying to point out the flaw in your argument that the films are communicating that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically, inevitably, and exclusively lead to a global infestation. This is an implausible position and it's not what the films are communicating.

You could stop Xenomorphs if they reach Earth, just like you could stop Xenomorphs in general regardless where you are, just like has been demonstrated in the first four films, and your argument would only be valid if it wasn't true that Xenomorphs could be stopped, especially before an infestation reaches global extent. I have not agreed to what you're childishly insisting that I've supposedly agreed upon, but I have always argued that the fear in the films is that Xenomorphs could cause havoc to any extent up to a global infestation, and AVP is being perfectly consistent with the previous films, they're just not being consistent with what you personally interpret the films as communicating.

All that being said, you have yet to explain how the first four films supposedly argues that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will definitively, inevitably, and exclusively lead to a global disaster, which is what your entire argument of "AVP undermines the first four films" really hinges on here, and if that first premise is false (which it arguably is) then your entire argument crumbles. This unreasonable idea of yours is arguably not present in the actual films.

[BlueMarsalis79]

I remember Aliens explicitly saying, if ONE of those things gets down here then that will be all.
I remember Alien³ explicitly saying, if the Company acquires the Alien Queen it will wipe out the entire universe.

AVP undermines both tenfold by saying the Predators have let multiple infestations go crazy, on Earth in the past, f**k me man. It's that simple.

[[cancerblack]]

Guess who deleted her post (what a twist), but picked the winning team before doing so?

I remember Aliens explicitly saying, if ONE of those things gets down here then that will be all.
I remember Alien³ explicitly saying, if the Company acquires the Alien Queen it will wipe out the entire universe.

AVP undermines both tenfold by saying the Predators have let multiple infestations go crazy, on Earth in the past, f**k me man. It's that simple.