AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[Xenomrph]

I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^

Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them.

And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.

There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.

Three articles. Noted. ;-)

The thing is that I'm not restricted to any particular topic, but I'm interested in everything, and I seek to avoid unnecessary division and confusion, and since this fanbase has been so frustratingly obsessed about what is "canon" and what is "non-canon" that it's becoming toxic I also wish to clarify how things really are and that we need not fight over something as ridiculous as what is "canon" and "non-canon", but we could all easily get along and just explore this rich fictional universe together without deciding to disregard some works and cause division and fights. Further noting that I believe there are many fans out there who may want or need to hear what I have to say on these matters, which may bring to their attention information which they have not yet considered, which in turn may result in the fanbase moving forward towards a better and more unified future and atmosphere. I am myself after all the end product of all those fans whom sought to divide the fandom and the canon rather than unify it all.

I'm not sure that that changes anything I said - I find it more pleasant to let people enjoy what they want and ignore what they don't. If you consider all of the movies to be canon then more power to you - arguing your case about why you think that way can be interesting and could get people to see things in a different light or possibly even come over to your line of thinking, but the problem is when people push the envelope and see their line of thinking as absolutely "right" or "wrong". That's when you get nasty canon fights where people entrench themselves and declare "facts" about what is or isn't "true" in a fictional universe, and everyone comes away from the experience embittered and frustrated.  It's about learning to recognize where that "agree to disagree" line is, rather than being a zealot who thinks they know The One Truth and are god's gift to the fandom to illuminate the way to true enlightenment or something.

But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.

Worth pointing out that point B. doesn't matter.

[The Old One]

Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.

Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.

[TurokSwe]

But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.

Such works are of course not part of the main cinematic canon so it is not a direct issue, yet noting that merely not liking any particular work does not equate to said work being non-canonical (nor does it justify pushing this unto others), but there is nothing wrong with personally ignoring it, as long as you acknowledge that it's not explicitly rejected as officially canonical by refusing to push your decision to ignore said works unto other people (especially if you can't justify your stance).

[The Old One]

And here we reach an impasse because no one was trying to convince you that anything that is Canon, isn't.

[TurokSwe]

I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^

Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them.

And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.

There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.

Three articles. Noted. ;-)

The thing is that I'm not restricted to any particular topic, but I'm interested in everything, and I seek to avoid unnecessary division and confusion, and since this fanbase has been so frustratingly obsessed about what is "canon" and what is "non-canon" that it's becoming toxic I also wish to clarify how things really are and that we need not fight over something as ridiculous as what is "canon" and "non-canon", but we could all easily get along and just explore this rich fictional universe together without deciding to disregard some works and cause division and fights. Further noting that I believe there are many fans out there who may want or need to hear what I have to say on these matters, which may bring to their attention information which they have not yet considered, which in turn may result in the fanbase moving forward towards a better and more unified future and atmosphere. I am myself after all the end product of all those fans whom sought to divide the fandom and the canon rather than unify it all.

I'm not sure that that changes anything I said - I find it more pleasant to let people enjoy what they want and ignore what they don't. If you consider all of the movies to be canon then more power to you - arguing your case about why you think that way can be interesting and could get people to see things in a different light or possibly even come over to your line of thinking, but the problem is when people push the envelope and see their line of thinking as absolutely "right" or "wrong". That's when you get nasty canon fights where people entrench themselves and declare "facts" about what is or isn't "true" in a fictional universe, and everyone comes away from the experience embittered and frustrated.  It's about learning to recognize where that "agree to disagree" line is, rather than being a zealot who thinks they know The One Truth and are god's gift to the fandom to illuminate the way to true enlightenment or something.

But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.

Worth pointing out that point B. doesn't matter.

I see your reasoning. However, I am still confident that I stand on a well-reasoned and well-evidenced foundation (as presented in my OP) which I'm sure many people will agree with, even if reluctantly and silently. Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.

And here we reach an impasse because no one was trying to convince you that anything that is Canon, isn't.

I'm pretty darn sure some people were (yourself included, I must remind you). ^^

[The Old One]

No we weren't because AVP's not considered canon by Fox, we have confirmation from someone who works with them. That's the facts, whether you like it or not.

[SiL]

Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.

Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.

When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.

[Xenomrph]

Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.

Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.

Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.

FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.

But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.

Such works are of course not part of the main cinematic canon so it is not a direct issue, yet noting that merely not liking any particular work does not equate to said work being non-canonical (nor does it justify pushing this unto others), but there is nothing wrong with personally ignoring it, as long as you acknowledge that it's not explicitly rejected as officially canonical by refusing to push your decision to ignore said works unto other people (especially if you can't justify your stance).

If you're going by FOX's stance, there aren't canon "tiers". According to them, everything released after 2014's novel 'Alien: Out of the Shadows' is canon, full stop. There has been no indication from FOX that anything outranks anything else, or that one thing can de-canonize another thing.

It's worth pointing out that "canon" and "continuity" are not synonyms, by the way.

I see your reasoning. However, I am still confident that I stand on a well-reasoned and well-evidenced foundation (as presented in my OP) which I'm sure many people will agree with, even if reluctantly and silently. Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.

Like, that's cool and everything, and it's great that you're acknowledging other people's opinions (there are a lot of people who never reach that stage), but like I said the important part is recognizing when to agree to disagree. You might feel you've got an iron-clad argument for why you think all the movies are/should be "canon", but you will inevitably come across people who say "yeah, nope" for reasons as simple as "I didn't like the movie", and you aren't going to change their minds and they're free to enjoy Aliens and Predators in whatever way makes them happiest.

And for the record, I'm one of those weirdos who considers everything canon, top to bottom. I think there's a place for everything, finding creative ways around apparent contradictions are fun, and I've got a fluid enough approach to continuity that I can enjoy most anything without it disrupting the overarching narrative in my head. The AvP universe is a big place with a lot of cool stuff in it.

Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.

Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.

When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.

Wisdom.

[TurokSwe]

No we weren't because AVP's not considered canon by Fox, we have confirmation from someone who works with them. That's the facts, whether you like it or not.

And now we're back to the same issue once more. You will still need to properly address the case in my OP (which to my understanding would be the actual facts), and I already clarified in my discussion with SM why his case didn't hold water.

[The Old One]

Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.

Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.

Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.

FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.

Gotta disagree with this, sometimes the rules get updated- that's all it amounts to.
And I didn't say anyone had to abide by or take into consideration the media that is considered canon by Fox, only that they're engendered to.

[SiL]

(which to my understanding would be the actual facts)

You insist Fox thinks they're all canon to each other.

Someone who works with Fox informs you they do not, in fact, consider them all canon to each other.

For someone talking logic, you're being very irrational in how you deal with this information in order to preserve your beliefs and expectations.

[TurokSwe]

Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.

Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.

When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.

My opening statement is obviously an overview of the arguments I would go on to make in the rest of my OP.

[SiL]

Yes, and it's fundamentally incorrect. Fox do not consider them all canon to each other.

[TurokSwe]

(which to my understanding would be the actual facts)

You insist Fox thinks they're all canon to each other.

Someone who works with Fox informs you they do not, in fact, consider them all canon to each other.

For someone talking logic, you're being very irrational in how you deal with this information in order to preserve your beliefs and expectations.

And as I already stated, my original OP makes a strong enough case that they actually do consider all twelve films canonical, and I already discussed with SM and found that his case didn't actually hold any water. Please, properly address my arguments before you decide to call me "irrational".

Yes, and it's fundamentally incorrect. Fox do not consider them all canon to each other.

You're merely making a claim. You need to provide evidence.

[The Old One]

SM, is the evidence.