AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[Voodoo Magic]

Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.

SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.

We already established licensing has nothing to do with canon and everything has its separate license.

Here's the Alien film canon all, past and present:

"AVP" was indeed canon (and subsequently AVP-R), and designed as a prequel to "Alien".  Per Paul Anderson:

• "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies. In no way does it contradict or go against anything in the Alien franchise. We've been very careful about that. It's set present day and on earth, so it's like 150 years before Sigourney Weaver's out in space. It really makes sense. When you see this movie and then those movies, well I understand why she was completely ignorant of the existence of Aliens, but the Weyland-Yutani people did have an awareness of them. In that respect, there is a mythology to it (and there is a lot of mythology in the movie), but it is more related to Earth history rather than the history of Aliens and Predators. I'm not trying to explain away their genesis or anything like that. The idea is very much inspired by something Ron Cobb did for the very first Alien movie. I don't know if any of you have the original Alien book (which was done ages ago), but it had some original artwork from Alien for the pyramid that was never built ... Ron Cobb did some really cool designs, which were hieroglyphics showing the eggs &#Array; and that was very much an inspiration for this movie. It was a strand of Alien mythology that existed already but that never made it in Ridley Scott's movie."

But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley retconned AVP out.  As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:

• "When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process."

[SM]

which is a very long way of saying "Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films."

[Voodoo Magic]

which is a very long way of saying "Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films."

Yep. Just backing up with details. 

[TurokSwe]

If fox considers them non-canon then there is nothing you can say that matters, if you personally take them as canon then fair enough but to state it as fact when the people who hold the rights say otherwise is just not going to fly. SM has worked with fox, if he says fox doesn't consider them canon to each then that is that. Also there was a twitter feed a month or so back from someone working for them stating the same.

Both Ridley's comments and Covenant itself should make it obvious that the avp movies are no longer canon, at least to the Alien franchise.

I just explained in my initial comment quite clearly that Fox evidently do consider all twelve films canonical as well as how Alien: Covenant doesn't take any stance on the matter at all, and as far as Ridley Scott's comments are concerned, they really are of no value in the grand scheme of things, especially now that The Predator has further contradicted his suggestions. If you personally prefer to exclude some entries from the canon then go right ahead, but former considerations in mind, you cannot possibly state with a clear conscience that Fox has excluded any entries from the official canon. Noting that, as I keep saying to anyone who repeats the claim, if there is any representative of Fox who has disclosed contrary information, then please do cite it, or have the claim be rendered worthless nonsense.

Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.

SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.

Who is "SM"? Please provide sources!

[SM]

That'd be me.

[TurokSwe]

Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.

SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.

We already established licensing has nothing to do with canon and everything has its separate license.

Here's the Alien film canon all, past and present:

"AVP" was indeed canon (and subsequently AVP-R), and designed as a prequel to "Alien".  Per Paul Anderson:

• "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies. In no way does it contradict or go against anything in the Alien franchise. We've been very careful about that. It's set present day and on earth, so it's like 150 years before Sigourney Weaver's out in space. It really makes sense. When you see this movie and then those movies, well I understand why she was completely ignorant of the existence of Aliens, but the Weyland-Yutani people did have an awareness of them. In that respect, there is a mythology to it (and there is a lot of mythology in the movie), but it is more related to Earth history rather than the history of Aliens and Predators. I'm not trying to explain away their genesis or anything like that. The idea is very much inspired by something Ron Cobb did for the very first Alien movie. I don't know if any of you have the original Alien book (which was done ages ago), but it had some original artwork from Alien for the pyramid that was never built ... Ron Cobb did some really cool designs, which were hieroglyphics showing the eggs &#Array; and that was very much an inspiration for this movie. It was a strand of Alien mythology that existed already but that never made it in Ridley Scott's movie."

But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley retconned AVP out.  As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:

• "When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process."

First, I'm glad we can agree that AVP at the very least "was" considered canonical. Second, the comment by Lindelof clearly wasn't intended to be read as AVP supposedly being "retconned" (which would itself be contradicted by such titles as Fire and Stone, Life and Death, The Weyland-Yutani Report, AVP: Evolution, and The Predator), but rather as the simple disregard of the events taking place in AVP, just as Predators disregarded these events but still existed within the same universe. Besides, with the case I made in my initial comment it seems clear that all twelve films remain canonical.

That'd be me.

Pleasure to meet you! So, would you care to fill us in here?

[The Old One]

Who says?

When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?

The people I work with at Fox says.

AvP is it's own separate unconnected license.

[TurokSwe]

Who says?

When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?

The people I work with at Fox says.

AvP is it's own separate unconnected license.

That's a licensing issue, not a canonical issue.

[SM]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

[426Buddy]

Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"

He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.

In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.

[SM]

Word.

[TurokSwe]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"

He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.

In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.

The reason I engage in these discussions is because I'm confident that I have a strong enough case for my stance in considering all twelve films (and any potential future films) canonical to each other and I have yet to hear a proper refutation of any of it (and referencing past discussions which I'm not aware of, and which may indeed not be appropriate or adequate, will do little to change anything). Admittedly we will all hold on to the option which we personally prefer, but I would dare say the evidence is much more in favor of the shared universe remaining intact.

[The Kurgan]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

[yhe1]

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

[The Old One]

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.