*Spoilers* David and the Engineers

[The Alien Predator]

Maybe, if these Engineers are smaller than the ones in Prometheus, it makes the case that life in general is doomed to regress at some point. That could also give credence to the idea that the ancient Space Jockey ( ancient until retconned ) is the same species as the Engineers in Prometheus and Covenant, but way taller because way older, from a time when Engineers as a species had not yet started to regress.

Perhaps that's why they started creating life, in the same way that humans are turning to A.I. at a time when their civilisation seems to be in danger. Noticing their species was starting to get smaller, they began experimenting with the black goo to figure out how to create and "grow" new species derived from them. The same way we are currently trying to perfect A.I. that may replace us.

As for Engineers being all killed, I doubt it. Since they've been travelling across space for at least thousands of years, and since we know they can terraform, it makes sense that they'd have colonised some other planets or moons.

You just gave me a thought.

Have you heard of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_dwarfism There was a hominid species called Homo floresiensis that got smaller due to living on an island.

What if the Engineers on some planets went through planetary dwarfism? We're really diverse, and if they are us, then they're no doubt very diverse too and range in heights depending on where they're from.

[whiterabbit]

Humans, engineers, the grey skinned humanoids being bomb are all humans. Simple environmental and technological conditions change the way we appear. I like to think that the engineers were seeding themselves.

However David's proclamation "The gods have rejected mankind as cruel, weak and full of greed," Fassbender says in the trailer. "They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. So they are leaving the earth forever."...  "But their power is an illusion. They don't deserve to start again, and I'm not going to let them."

It appears that he says this while bombing the humans on paradise... meaning, did they too come from earth, did the engineers come from earth. Plus like every other person on this board, why not just bomb Earth?

Also, "the gods". Apparently Gods in Alien has just been confirmed.

[Dangerous Days]

Spaihts's David has been reborn from the ashes of Lindelof's more nuanced character. We our just one dastardly master plan reveal, while quoting a line from Milton's Paradise lost, from having a full blown Bond villain on our hands.

Not to come off too pop phycologist, but David's effectively a psychopath. He's developing human emotions, but he doesn't have any empathy to underpin them. It's like giving Hannibal Lecter a bioweapon to play with; he's going to be more interested in it's effects than the consequences of those effects.

I don't believe David's decision to bomb Paradise is out of revenge; it's just a scientific experiment to see the black goo's effects on a planetary scale. If a few thousand Engineers have to die along the way, then so be it. Eggs and omelettes.

Talking of psychopaths and God complex, reminds me of Hannibal Lecter's line in Manhunter:

'If one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is.'

This is David's metamorphosis from subservient android to deity. The black goo now gives him the power to create and destroy on a planetary scale, ergo, in his mind, he's now a God and humans and Engineers are imperfect by comparison.

As for the alien, I agree with what a couple of other posters have mentioned on here over the last few weeks. That David is trying to create creatures in his own idealized image of himself. A being unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality; a Perfect organism to live along side him in his planned utopia; washing away the imperfections of the Engineers and humanity in the process of their creation. In some respects it's a cool idea, just have to see how well it's executed in the film, because if done poorly, it runs the real risk of coming off all Machiavellian.



Thinking about it some more, I feel SpeedyMaxx is right and despite what some who saw the footage at CinemaCon are claiming, I now think it is the Engineers being bombed by David and not another intermediate race of humanoids. The size of them as David walks between their corpses in the plaza, the shot in the red band trailer of one of them being dissected, looks like Engineers to me. Plus, as Hick's reminded us, they were referred to as Deadgineers on set.

Still have strong doubts though, that Paradise is the Engineers home world. One city, no other nations, no government or military; doesn't seem much like a home world to me. So I still feel there's a possibility Engineers will be reintroduced in the next film, or certainly in time to become the Space Jockey on LV-426, if RS goes down that route and shows it happening rather than implying it through other events.

[The Alien Predator]

Spaihts's David has been reborn from the ashes of Lindelof's more nuanced character. We our just one dastardly master plan reveal, while quoting a line from Milton's Paradise lost, from having a full blown Bond villain on our hands.

Not to come off too pop phycologist, but David's effectively a psychopath. He's developing human emotions, but he doesn't have any empathy to underpin them. It's like giving Hannibal Lecter a bioweapon to play with; he's going to be more interested in it's effects than the consequences of those effects.

I don't believe David's decision to bomb Paradise is out of revenge; it's just a scientific experiment to see the black goo's effects on a planetary scale. If a few thousand Engineers have to die along the way, then so be it. Eggs and omelettes.

Talking of psychopaths and God complex, reminds me of Hannibal Lecter's line in Manhunter:

'If one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is.'

This is David's metamorphosis from subservient android to deity. The black goo now gives him the power to create and destroy on a planetary scale, ergo, in his mind, he's now a God and humans and Engineers are imperfect by comparison.

As for the alien, I agree with what a couple of other posters have mentioned on here over the last few weeks. That David is trying to create creatures in his own idealized image of himself. A being unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality; a Perfect organism to live along side him in his planned utopia; washing away the imperfections of the Engineers and humanity in the process of their creation. In some respects it's a cool idea, just have to see how well it's executed in the film, because if done poorly, it runs the real risk of coming off all Machiavellian.



Thinking about it some more, I feel SpeedyMaxx is right and despite what some who saw the footage at CinemaCon are claiming, I now think it is the Engineers being bombed by David and not another intermediate race of humanoids. The size of them as David walks between their corpses in the plaza, the shot in the red band trailer of one of them being dissected, looks like Engineers to me. Plus, as Hick's reminded us, they were referred to as Deadgineers on set.

Still have strong doubts though, that Paradise is the Engineers home world. One city, no other nations, no government or military; doesn't seem much like a home world to me. So I still feel there's a possibility Engineers will be reintroduced in the next film, or certainly in time to become the Space Jockey on LV-426, if RS goes down that route and shows it happening rather than implying it through other events.

Perhaps this is how David feels, powerful...

[Alien Runner]

Spaihts's David has been reborn from the ashes of Lindelof's more nuanced character. We our just one dastardly master plan reveal, while quoting a line from Milton's Paradise lost, from having a full blown Bond villain on our hands.

Not to come off too pop phycologist, but David's effectively a psychopath. He's developing human emotions, but he doesn't have any empathy to underpin them. It's like giving Hannibal Lecter a bioweapon to play with; he's going to be more interested in it's effects than the consequences of those effects.

I don't believe David's decision to bomb Paradise is out of revenge; it's just a scientific experiment to see the black goo's effects on a planetary scale. If a few thousand Engineers have to die along the way, then so be it. Eggs and omelettes.

Talking of psychopaths and God complex, reminds me of Hannibal Lecter's line in Manhunter:

'If one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is.'

This is David's metamorphosis from subservient android to deity. The black goo now gives him the power to create and destroy on a planetary scale, ergo, in his mind, he's now a God and humans and Engineers are imperfect by comparison.

As for the alien, I agree with what a couple of other posters have mentioned on here over the last few weeks. That David is trying to create creatures in his own idealized image of himself. A being unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality; a Perfect organism to live along side him in his planned utopia; washing away the imperfections of the Engineers and humanity in the process of their creation. In some respects it's a cool idea, just have to see how well it's executed in the film, because if done poorly, it runs the real risk of coming off all Machiavellian.



Thinking about it some more, I feel SpeedyMaxx is right and despite what some who saw the footage at CinemaCon are claiming, I now think it is the Engineers being bombed by David and not another intermediate race of humanoids. The size of them as David walks between their corpses in the plaza, the shot in the red band trailer of one of them being dissected, looks like Engineers to me. Plus, as Hick's reminded us, they were referred to as Deadgineers on set.

Still have strong doubts though, that Paradise is the Engineers home world. One city, no other nations, no government or military; doesn't seem much like a home world to me. So I still feel there's a possibility Engineers will be reintroduced in the next film, or certainly in time to become the Space Jockey on LV-426, if RS goes down that route and shows it happening rather than implying it through other events.

I don't get how Aliens are the "perfect" organism. HUmans > Aliens. Aliens are no different from other animals on planet Earth. Probably an oversized bug with primate intelligence. David ain't that smart if he thinks its the "perfect organism". And talking about gods, he still refers to Engineers as gods so he doesn't see them as weak.

[whiterabbit]

Perhaps by "perfect organism" Ash meant it's non-reliance on technology. Structural perfection. Then it's lack of conscience, moralities or delusions of grandeur. Ash did have a conscience, it's what impaired his attempt to kill Ripley. It wasn't a malfunction, he was following orders that were contradictory to his primary "science officer" programing. Of course there is the rapid growth, altering it's basic biological make-up to combat adverse conditions, etc. The beast is built to survive.

[The Alien Predator]

Alien Runner. I agree on the humans > Aliens.

I've always seen us as deadlier, sure, we suffer plenty of casualties but in the end we are victorious.

I doubt even the Engineers could wipe us out by the time of Aliens, especially 200 years later by Alien: Resurrection as we'll be too widespread. They can bomb Earth all they want (assuming they can get past the defences), we'll always be somewhere like cockroaches, just ready to appear again.

We reproduce fast and we don't need hosts, just space and food. I think we're more invasive and deadly. Aliens are easily avoided, just stay out of the worlds you know they inhabit and you'll be fine, but humans? They'll come to you...

[whiterabbit]

Yea but you don't see the aliens screwing each other over for a goddamn percentage. Hence, superior.

[The Alien Predator]

That's what makes us deadlier!

Not only do we screw each other figuratively for a percentage, but literally too which increases our parasitic numbers!

Maybe that's why the Engineers sought to wipe us out? One of them had a prophesy - "they're gonna screw each other over a goddamned percentage," and an extermination order was signed but never carried out because

Spoiler

the Engineers screwed each other over a goddamn percentage...

Like Father...

Like Son...

[close]

[Alien Runner]

Perhaps by "perfect organism" Ash meant it's non-reliance on technology. Structural perfection. Then it's lack of conscience, moralities or delusions of grandeur. Ash did have a conscience, it's what impaired his attempt to kill Ripley. It wasn't a malfunction, he was following orders that were contradictory to his primary "science officer" programing. Of course there is the rapid growth, altering it's basic biological make-up to combat adverse conditions, etc. The beast is built to survive.

You're romanticizing the alien. Its just a bug with primate intelligence. You know what else is non-reliant on technology? worms. tigers. spiders. I can go on and on. And on that "survival" part, we have something called adaptation/evolution/mutation. We're built so survive as well just like every other beast on this planet. Think of why some insects, amphibians, snakes, etc. have camouflage. They didn't have them before. Or how wolves turned into dogs.

What makes the Alien the "perfect" organism? I don't get it. Perhaps, ants and bees are close to perfect organisms but because they're too small to make an impact on our environment that we don't consider them as such whereas the Aliens are big enough to be considered "perfect". I guess you could say Aliens are perfect because they're like Commies. The Alien system is like a Communist utopia. But compared to Humans and Predators, Aliens are the weakest species. I remembered the comic series Alien vs Predator vs Terminator. The Aliens became pets for Skynet. Overtime, the "perfect" organism will be at the bottom of the food chain whereas the humans, predators, and the robots will be at the top.

That's what makes us deadlier!

Not only do we screw each other figuratively for a percentage, but literally too which increases our parasitic numbers!

Maybe that's why the Engineers sought to wipe us out? One of them had a prophesy - "they're gonna screw each other over a goddamned percentage," and an extermination order was signed but never carried out because

Spoiler

the Engineers screwed each other over a goddamn percentage...

Like Father...

Like Son...

[close]

Who is deadlier? Predator or human?

There is only 1 thing I could think about which makes the Alien the "perfect" organism. It would explain why the xenomorph was crucified on the mural. All other explanations fall short because we end up going to circles since Earth has many organisms with similar characteristics.

Xenomorphs terraform planets. They make planets livable for other lifeforms. Deacon in Fire and Stone ended up turning into a Mountain. Perhaps, the xenomorph on the mural in Prometheus was actually an ancient Deacon who transformed into a temple for Engineers to worship. This makes the xenomorphs unique to all other organisms because they create environments for us to live in. Ants and Bees can create Hives but it serves their OWN purpose. Xenomorphs create environments for all. Perhaps, the Engineers knew that so they would always send a xenomorph to terraform planets before they populate it.

[The Alien Predator]

That's what makes us deadlier!

Not only do we screw each other figuratively for a percentage, but literally too which increases our parasitic numbers!

Maybe that's why the Engineers sought to wipe us out? One of them had a prophesy - "they're gonna screw each other over a goddamned percentage," and an extermination order was signed but never carried out because

Spoiler

the Engineers screwed each other over a goddamn percentage...

Like Father...

Like Son...

[close]

Who is deadlier? Predator or human?

There is only 1 thing I could think about which makes the Alien the "perfect" organism. It would explain why the xenomorph was crucified on the mural. All other explanations fall short because we end up going to circles since Earth has many organisms with similar characteristics.

Xenomorphs terraform planets. They make planets livable for other lifeforms. Deacon in Fire and Stone ended up turning into a Mountain. Perhaps, the xenomorph on the mural in Prometheus was actually an ancient Deacon who transformed into a temple for Engineers to worship. This makes the xenomorphs unique to all other organisms because they create environments for us to live in. Ants and Bees can create Hives but it serves their OWN purpose. Xenomorphs create environments for all. Perhaps, the Engineers knew that so they would always send a xenomorph to terraform planets before they populate it.

I never thought of it that way, some fans and even some novels made mention of a civilisation using Aliens to wipe out life and then they move in to take the planet for themselves.

But I never considered the idea that the Alien itself is simply used to grow into a structure. The Engineers are masters at bio-engineering and we've long speculated that their ships are grown instead of built, so your idea of Alien-like organisms growing into buildings makes a lot of sense now.

As for who is more deadlier between humans and Predators.

I'd say at the moment, they're deadlier due to having better technology, their space ships rip ours apart in space as we saw in the intro of the AvP 2010 game when the Colonial Marine ship just broke in two from three shots by a Predator Mothership.

So their advantage comes from having more time which makes them ahead. But they do acknowledge us as being equally deadly and this is why they go through so much length to keep their technology out of our hands, it's even in the dialogue in game - "we must keep our technology out of human hands."

They wouldn't be as scared if a Predator ship crashed in an Alien hive compared to if one crashed in San Francisco right now. 

The Rage War novels actually show how deadly humans become in the far future, becoming almost ahead of your average Predator hunter technologically and it's until the later books that we see they're still ahead lol. Another advantage we have is that we're more numerous than them but sometimes numbers aren't everything as they still have civilisation busting wrist bombs.

My friend actually brings up a good point about Predator deadliness, how many humans does one kill before we bring it down? Quite a lot. 

I remember some of the stories kind of point out that we're lucky the Predators would rather hunt us than conquer or destroy. Truthfully I'd be way more scared for our species from the Predators rather than the Aliens. Like you said, they're just intelligent bugs. Two scientists in Rage War compare them to dolphins, who are very intelligent, but nothing on the level of us or Predators.

[Necronomicon II]

"why not just bomb earth?" Because he's been busy experimenting, and clearly he has more sinister plans for the denizens of earth. One thing at a time, Gawd!

[XenoBishop]

Can I just add my two-cents,

I just watched a reaction video from GeekTyrant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKSICi_spRo - they are usually reliable. They were quite clear that the footage shows a NEW type of species being destroyed by the black-goo bombs. As some people stated from the set-leak that the dead bodies didn't look large enough to be Engineers, according to this video, its because they aren't.

"They aren't engineers, they aren't humans, another species out in the cosmos" "yeah, with like raised skin and stuff"

They are apparently another (less advanced, Roman empire-like) race, like humans in which the Engineers created.


So, ya.

[Infected]

Can I just add my two-cents,

I just watched a reaction video from GeekTyrant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKSICi_spRo - they are usually reliable. They were quite clear that the footage shows a NEW type of species being destroyed by the black-goo bombs. As some people stated from the set-leak that the dead bodies didn't look large enough to be Engineers, according to this video, its because they aren't.

They are apparently another (less advanced, Roman empire-like) race, like humans in which the Engineers created.


So, ya.

Then i would like to say, not true/false.
Maybe their judgement was cloudy or they didnt see the very well (i also have that with movies sometimes that i miss things the first time)
But look at this screenshot and look at cloaked David walking through the "Pompei" mess, you see giant engineers on their knees and they are still larger then David, so i stay to my fact that those are the same engineers, just as tall as the first we saw in Prometheus.
Stating that, its possible those are engineer kids, and David just bombed a "school"

[XenoBishop]

At this point please forgive me for siding with someone who has seen the footage and even mentioned the skin complexion of this new race, as opposed to someone who paused a dark trailer.

In my opinion also, that "kneeling Engineer" is too skinny to be such, you can't see its face to see if it has that distinguised facial features. These guys didnt claim that the species wasn't a bipedal human/engineer-like race. They claimed it to be a different one though. I would like to think they'd rather keep their reputation than make things up.

That being said, you and I haven't seen the footage, so we're the least qualified. That paused trailer still isn't enough for me. Feels like Prometheus all over again when people saw things that weren't there.