Egg on Sulaco

[Jonjamess]

Both this thread and the other turned into grey sludge, impossible to engage meaningfully with?

Good.

In what way?

I'm sure ralfy will respect and contribute to the analytical level of this thread.

I've not done anything except that. The problem is that I'm trolled when I do so. Hence, "grey sludge" and all that.

In this case, I can't say much about how the egg(s) got on the Sulaco, except that the Queen alien probably dropped a few the moments before she attacked Bishop. Others point out that she would have needed other things to do so as one recalls the manner by which she was laying eggs in the next, but there's also a possibility that she might have recovered one or two that were not destroyed by the fire and grenades and brought them with her.

I think there were references to spores, etc., made earlier, but those from the prequels, which I barely saw, and I'd like to focus on explaining what happened by just looking at the first two movies. I think similar was made about something in her tail and attached to what remained of Bishop.

There's also the point about Bishop following orders from Burke. He points out in the movie that he's been programmed not to harm human beings, but it's also possible that like Ash he's also programmed to work for the company that made him and the military that he works for (which is claimed by one manual). In which case, part of his mission would be to recover alien organisms for the labs. The problem is that from the time he repaired the transmitter to bring down the second dropship and fly it towards Ripley there would have been no time for him to do so.

Given all that, I'd say that the egg(s) may have been recovered from undamaged ones in the next by the queen, attached to unseen parts of her body (probably the back), and then dropped in covered parts of the hanger after Ripley runs to get the powerloader.

Once again for the trillionth time, Bishop doesn't follow ANY orders from Burke.

As an android he is lower in the command chain in this instance, so when a human Weyland Yutani exec "suggests/asks" he prepare the specimens he logically sees no threat to human lives (remember when he mentions this to Ripley he's talking about the dead facehuggers NOT the live ones).

Burke is "asking" him to do this for his own agenda. To make him rich. There's no orders from top level WY, there's nobody else in on it. Simply Burke sieving an opportunity to get hold of some valuable alien specimens.

"How do I get these specimens off the planet? With all the chaos going on this is my perfect opportunity. Hicks will likely never go for it, Gorman is unconscious and probably wouldn't agree either. Ripley certainly won't. I know, I'll ask the android. If he calculates there is no threat to human life he will have no reason to refuse my suggestion."

That's all it is, a greedy person with little conscious seizing an opportunity amongst all the chaos.

Also an android can't carry behavioural inhibitors that make it impossible to harm a human or by action allow a human to be harmed and at the same time be a sinister WY mole following sinister WY orders that endanger every human life in the process! That's contradictory. There's zero indication in the movie that Bishop suddenly has his programming altered and the inhibitor removed. Zero. If it was supposed to have been a plot point they would have made it obvious. Either it would never have been mentioned he can't harm a human or there would have been an obvious scene in the movie showing the inhibitors have now been disabled.

[HuDaFuK]

Burke can't order Bishop around any more than he can overrule Hicks re:nuking the colony from orbit.

He can ask Bishop to do something for him. But he can't make him do anything. Bishop's military property and thus under military command, and the movie makes it abundantly clear Burke has no sway over the military.

[Engineer]

Burke can't order Bishop around any more than he can overrule Hicks re:nuking the colony from orbit.

He can ask Bishop to do something for him. But he can't make him do anything. Bishop's military property and thus under military command, and the movie makes it abundantly clear Burke has no sway over the military.

Prepare your self for a lot of word vomit

[kwisatz]

Pretty sure he's well aware.

This is still the Egg on Sulaco thread. People come here to die.

[Engineer]

Pretty sure he's well aware.

This is still the Egg on Sulaco thread. People come here to die.

But has he seen Ralfy yet?

[kwisatz]

Well ok, a legitimate question/objection   

[ralfy]

Both this thread and the other turned into grey sludge, impossible to engage meaningfully with?

Good.

In what way?

I'm sure ralfy will respect and contribute to the analytical level of this thread.

I've not done anything except that. The problem is that I'm trolled when I do so. Hence, "grey sludge" and all that.

In this case, I can't say much about how the egg(s) got on the Sulaco, except that the Queen alien probably dropped a few the moments before she attacked Bishop. Others point out that she would have needed other things to do so as one recalls the manner by which she was laying eggs in the next, but there's also a possibility that she might have recovered one or two that were not destroyed by the fire and grenades and brought them with her.

I think there were references to spores, etc., made earlier, but those from the prequels, which I barely saw, and I'd like to focus on explaining what happened by just looking at the first two movies. I think similar was made about something in her tail and attached to what remained of Bishop.

There's also the point about Bishop following orders from Burke. He points out in the movie that he's been programmed not to harm human beings, but it's also possible that like Ash he's also programmed to work for the company that made him and the military that he works for (which is claimed by one manual). In which case, part of his mission would be to recover alien organisms for the labs. The problem is that from the time he repaired the transmitter to bring down the second dropship and fly it towards Ripley there would have been no time for him to do so.

Given all that, I'd say that the egg(s) may have been recovered from undamaged ones in the next by the queen, attached to unseen parts of her body (probably the back), and then dropped in covered parts of the hanger after Ripley runs to get the powerloader.

Once again for the trillionth time, Bishop doesn't follow ANY orders from Burke.

As an android he is lower in the command chain in this instance, so when a human Weyland Yutani exec "suggests/asks" he prepare the specimens he logically sees no threat to human lives (remember when he mentions this to Ripley he's talking about the dead facehuggers NOT the live ones).

Burke is "asking" him to do this for his own agenda. To make him rich. There's no orders from top level WY, there's nobody else in on it. Simply Burke sieving an opportunity to get hold of some valuable alien specimens.

"How do I get these specimens off the planet? With all the chaos going on this is my perfect opportunity. Hicks will likely never go for it, Gorman is unconscious and probably wouldn't agree either. Ripley certainly won't. I know, I'll ask the android. If he calculates there is no threat to human life he will have no reason to refuse my suggestion."

That's all it is, a greedy person with little conscious seizing an opportunity amongst all the chaos.

Also an android can't carry behavioural inhibitors that make it impossible to harm a human or by action allow a human to be harmed and at the same time be a sinister WY mole following sinister WY orders that endanger every human life in the process! That's contradictory. There's zero indication in the movie that Bishop suddenly has his programming altered and the inhibitor removed. Zero. If it was supposed to have been a plot point they would have made it obvious. Either it would never have been mentioned he can't harm a human or there would have been an obvious scene in the movie showing the inhibitors have now been disabled.

"Mr. Burke gave instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."

Burke didn't ask and he didn't suggest. He ordered Bishop, and "was very specific" about those instructions.

Inhibitors stop snyths from harming human beings but they don't stop them from following orders. In this case, that would have meant securing the organisms properly so that they wouldn't escape and harm the humans.

That's also why I didn't argue that Bishop brought the eggs along. Besides, I don't think it would have been possible given their distance from the nest (i.e., assuming that the transmitter isn't near the reactor).

I won't address the rest of your points as they're off-topic and I've dealt with them readily in another thread.

Burke can't order Bishop around any more than he can overrule Hicks re:nuking the colony from orbit.

He can ask Bishop to do something for him. But he can't make him do anything. Bishop's military property and thus under military command, and the movie makes it abundantly clear Burke has no sway over the military.

In the movie, Bishop tells Ripley that he was ordered by Burke to prepare the facehuggers for transit to the company labs, and there was nothing vague about his instructions ("he was very specific"). Instead of answering back at Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke and argues with him about those instructions. That's when Burke tells her that they (not just Burke but even Ripley, because it was the Nostromo crew who discovered the alien ship) can earn a lot thanks to their shares and percentages.

The claim that Bishop works for the military is given in a manual. I can't remember it being said in the movie, but the camaraderie between Bishop and the Marines, as seen in the knife stunt, shows that they've known each other for a long time.

In which case, why is Bishop following orders from Burke?

Finally, I don't know if this is still worth pursuing because it appears that Bishop had nothing to do with the eggs on the Sulaco. Given that, I think what's more plausible is that the queen managed to save a few that were not destroyed by the fire and explosions before pursuing Ripley and Newt.

[Local Trouble]

In which case, why is Bishop following orders from Burke?

To find out who's involved, consider not Gorman but Bishop, who's supposed to work for the military but follows orders from Burke.

Dear ralfy,

It's clear you're passionate about the Alien series and have spent considerable time analyzing the dynamics between characters, particularly that between Burke and Bishop. However, it seems there might be a slight misunderstanding concerning the behavior and function of the artificial person, Bishop.

In "Aliens," Bishop is portrayed as an "artificial person," an advanced android designed by Weyland-Yutani but functioning under the jurisdiction of the Extrasolar Colonization Administration (ECA) during the mission. Bishop's primary directive, much like the Asimovian "laws of robotics," would be to assist and protect human life.

When Burke gives Bishop the instructions to preserve the facehugger specimens, Bishop complies not because Burke is a superior officer or because Bishop is loyal to Weyland-Yutani, but because the request doesn't contradict his programming or put any human lives in immediate danger.

Later, when Ripley instructs Bishop to destroy the specimens, he informs her of Burke's previous instructions. This shows Bishop's programming to be transparent about conflicts in orders, ensuring that humans in charge have all the information necessary to make informed decisions.

We should also keep in mind that while Bishop was designed by Weyland-Yutani, he's not inherently programmed to prioritize the corporation's interests. His primary allegiance is to the well-being and safety of the humans he serves, in this case, under the auspices of the ECA.

In conclusion, Bishop's actions and behavior are a result of his android programming, designed to follow instructions from humans that do not contravene his fundamental directives. It's less about the chain of command and more about the parameters set by his programming.

I hope this clarifies the relationship between Bishop and the characters around him in "Aliens."

Best,

ChatGPT

[SiL]

Once again:

Complying with a request =/= following orders.

[Jonjamess]

Bishop doesn't say "Burke ORDERED me to prepare the specimens for return to company labs". He says he "instructed". Instructed and ordered aren't the same thing!!!

If I give you instructions on how to do something or I suggest how you should do something "instruct" that doesn't mean I'm ordering you to do it!

And all of that's irrelevant anyway. The point we've all made hundreds of times is the Marines (who were in charge of the operation, NOT WY) were preoccupied and did not give their input on the facehuggers being transported.

The point is Burke has gone around them, he hasn't asked Gorman or Hicks if he can transport the specimens, he's gone straight to Bishop because Bishop is programed to take instructions from humans. Burke has done this on purpose as he knows the chain of command within the Marines is fractured, he knows they ate stressed out and preoccupied with other matters. He does this AFTER half of the Marines are killed or incapacity in the nest, NOT before when everyone is calm and level headed. How are you not understanding that? Had Bishop been WY property and had Bishop been under Burkes command, Burke would have 'ordered' him to secure the specimens the moment they discovered them, not 4 hours later when they've lost half their Marines, the APC and their only way off the colony. Why wouldn't he have transported the specimens to the dropship immediately? Ferro and co weren't doing anything at the time they had been ordered to touch down and await instructions! They could have helped Bishop move the specimens on board!

Because Burke has NO authority that's why! And the movie makes that clear! The only time Burke realises he might get away with collecting the specimens is when all chaos has broken loose!

Now had Bishop prepared the specimens for transport before Ripley had got to him and told him to destroy them, there is absolutely no doubt any of the Marines would have allowed it. Hicks wouldn't have gone with it, Hudson certainly wouldn't have, Vasquez absolutely wouldn't have accepted it, Gorman regardless of his stance would have likely sided with Hicks due to not wanting to rock the boat anymore due to his previous errors of judgement. The specimens would never have got off planet while any of those Marines were aware of it and the point is Burke was trying to do it while they WERENT aware. How does that say Burke is in charge of Bishop, can order him around and has any authority. It says the exact opposite.





Let's also use this fool proof logic that WY is NOT after the Alien in Aliens and that they don't believe Ripley. Hence Burke can't possibly be working with any higher up WY officials while on LV-426.

This is because:

You think WY absolutely knows about the Alien and wants live specimens desperately during the events of Aliens? You're incorrect. If I want these specimens, I believe they exist and I'm desperate to get my hands on some' do I go to a colony of 156 people that's been infected and go have my pick of the organisms there? Yes of course I would that's absolutely my best chance of getting hold of some.

Or do I wait until most of said specimens have been destroyed by a nuclear blast and then go chasing after one single specimen on a prison planet? No that would be logically stupid!

Oh it's because I haven't believed Ripley and her story! I think she's nuts! I don't believe these aliens exist so let the Colonial Marines waste their time and resources going to investigate a 'downed transmitter'.

The only time I realise I've been mistaken is suddenly I've intercepted a transmission from the Sulaco saying an extra terrestrial organism has caused a cryo tube fire and has been ejected along with Ripley down to Fury 161. Ahhh Ripley was telling the truth, right let's immediately dispatch our OWN WY ship and go get it.

All proof that WY isn't being sinister during Aliens, they simply don't believe Ripley. Otherwise they would have immediately gone themselves to the Colony. So no Burke isn't taking sinister behind the scenes orders, no he's not in charge of Bishop, no WY isn't in on the events of the colony, no WY doesn't at that point believe Xenomorphs are real, no WY doesn't believe Ripley. They only suddenly do realise once the Sulaco has ejected its EEV and the ships sensor readings are broadcast back to them! Not before, not ONE minute before that!

So your theories are nonsense. Burke during the events of Aliens is just single handedly trying to seize an opportunity, for himself and only himself.

[HuDaFuK]

Pretty much what Jonjamess said.

In Alien, at least one person at WY knows there's a potentially interesting organism on LV-426, because they stick Ash on board with orders to bring it back. But the company as a whole clearly doesn't know because otherwise they would've gone back between the first two movies (and, if you ask me, would've sent a properly equipped team in the first place, not a bunch of truckers). The total burying of the incident between movies only makes sense if it's just one or more individuals who subsequently go out of their way to cover their backs.

By Aliens, those responsible have either died or moved on, because Burke is the only person who seems even remotely interested in what Ripley has to say. And again, nothing he does in the movie suggests he has any official company backing - like the mystery perpetrator(s) in the first film he's winging it, operating alone to try and make a quick buck for himself. And he has no authority over the mission.

It's not until Alien 3 that the company as an entity (or at least a department of it) knows about the Alien and takes an active interest in getting hold of one.

[Engineer]

This is already sounding more like the other thread lol

[Local Trouble]

@HuDaFuK Get your licks in while you can.  You may be one of the last of us who ralfy hasn't put on ignore yet.

[Engineer]

Lmfao

[ralfy]

Bishop doesn't say "Burke ORDERED me to prepare the specimens for return to company labs". He says he "instructed". Instructed and ordered aren't the same thing!!!

If I give you instructions on how to do something or I suggest how you should do something "instruct" that doesn't mean I'm ordering you to do it!

And all of that's irrelevant anyway. The point we've all made hundreds of times is the Marines (who were in charge of the operation, NOT WY) were preoccupied and did not give their input on the facehuggers being transported.

The point is Burke has gone around them, he hasn't asked Gorman or Hicks if he can transport the specimens, he's gone straight to Bishop because Bishop is programed to take instructions from humans. Burke has done this on purpose as he knows the chain of command within the Marines is fractured, he knows they ate stressed out and preoccupied with other matters. He does this AFTER half of the Marines are killed or incapacity in the nest, NOT before when everyone is calm and level headed. How are you not understanding that? Had Bishop been WY property and had Bishop been under Burkes command, Burke would have 'ordered' him to secure the specimens the moment they discovered them, not 4 hours later when they've lost half their Marines, the APC and their only way off the colony. Why wouldn't he have transported the specimens to the dropship immediately? Ferro and co weren't doing anything at the time they had been ordered to touch down and await instructions! They could have helped Bishop move the specimens on board!

Because Burke has NO authority that's why! And the movie makes that clear! The only time Burke realises he might get away with collecting the specimens is when all chaos has broken loose!

Now had Bishop prepared the specimens for transport before Ripley had got to him and told him to destroy them, there is absolutely no doubt any of the Marines would have allowed it. Hicks wouldn't have gone with it, Hudson certainly wouldn't have, Vasquez absolutely wouldn't have accepted it, Gorman regardless of his stance would have likely sided with Hicks due to not wanting to rock the boat anymore due to his previous errors of judgement. The specimens would never have got off planet while any of those Marines were aware of it and the point is Burke was trying to do it while they WERENT aware. How does that say Burke is in charge of Bishop, can order him around and has any authority. It says the exact opposite.





Let's also use this fool proof logic that WY is NOT after the Alien in Aliens and that they don't believe Ripley. Hence Burke can't possibly be working with any higher up WY officials while on LV-426.

This is because:

You think WY absolutely knows about the Alien and wants live specimens desperately during the events of Aliens? You're incorrect. If I want these specimens, I believe they exist and I'm desperate to get my hands on some' do I go to a colony of 156 people that's been infected and go have my pick of the organisms there? Yes of course I would that's absolutely my best chance of getting hold of some.

Or do I wait until most of said specimens have been destroyed by a nuclear blast and then go chasing after one single specimen on a prison planet? No that would be logically stupid!

Oh it's because I haven't believed Ripley and her story! I think she's nuts! I don't believe these aliens exist so let the Colonial Marines waste their time and resources going to investigate a 'downed transmitter'.

The only time I realise I've been mistaken is suddenly I've intercepted a transmission from the Sulaco saying an extra terrestrial organism has caused a cryo tube fire and has been ejected along with Ripley down to Fury 161. Ahhh Ripley was telling the truth, right let's immediately dispatch our OWN WY ship and go get it.

All proof that WY isn't being sinister during Aliens, they simply don't believe Ripley. Otherwise they would have immediately gone themselves to the Colony. So no Burke isn't taking sinister behind the scenes orders, no he's not in charge of Bishop, no WY isn't in on the events of the colony, no WY doesn't at that point believe Xenomorphs are real, no WY doesn't believe Ripley. They only suddenly do realise once the Sulaco has ejected its EEV and the ships sensor readings are broadcast back to them! Not before, not ONE minute before that!

So your theories are nonsense. Burke during the events of Aliens is just single handedly trying to seize an opportunity, for himself and only himself.

LOL, they're the same thing, which is why Bishop refused to follow Ripley's orders:

Ripley: "I want those specimens destroyed as soon as you're done with them. You understand?"

I've addressed the rest of your points in the other thread, but feel free to point them out again there and not here.

Pretty much what Jonjamess said.

In Alien, at least one person at WY knows there's a potentially interesting organism on LV-426, because they stick Ash on board with orders to bring it back. But the company as a whole clearly doesn't know because otherwise they would've gone back between the first two movies (and, if you ask me, would've sent a properly equipped team in the first place, not a bunch of truckers). The total burying of the incident between movies only makes sense if it's just one or more individuals who subsequently go out of their way to cover their backs.

By Aliens, those responsible have either died or moved on, because Burke is the only person who seems even remotely interested in what Ripley has to say. And again, nothing he does in the movie suggests he has any official company backing - like the mystery perpetrator(s) in the first film he's winging it, operating alone to try and make a quick buck for himself. And he has no authority over the mission.

It's not until Alien 3 that the company as an entity (or at least a department of it) knows about the Alien and takes an active interest in getting hold of one.

Several of those those points aren't true, and I'll re-counter them in the other thread. For this one, it's best to remain on-topic.