The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread

[The Old One]

Indeed Vertigo.

And regardless, I just wanted a good conclusion. A excellently written, or at least competent one.

[Local Trouble]

It's called Game of Thrones for a reason.  The white walkers were really just a plot device for facilitating and complicating the ever-shifting alliances in the game, not the culmination of the game itself.

[The Old One]

The thematic point is the Throne doesn't really matter. It's about life versus death.

The scouring of the Shire and Aragorn's leadership is a point, it's important but it's never the main threat. GoT/ A Song of Ice and Fire is explicit about this similar idea but instead fully exploring the aftermath.

But either way around can work, it's just for the version we got- neither worked because they rushed through both.

[kwisatz]

It's called Game of Thrones for a reason.  The white walkers were really just a plot device for facilitating and complicating the ever-shifting alliances in the game, not the culmination of the game itself.

Ja, this - presumably whispered the content of my previous post subconsciously into my small mind anyway.

Please don't sue, fine sir.

The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that's become the template. I'm not sure that it's a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

[Local Trouble]

It's called the weirding way.  You'll learn all about that when you read or see Dune though...

[kwisatz]

It's called the weirding way.  You'll learn all about that when you read or see Dune though...

You mean these little devices?

Spoiler

[close]

That's old hat!

[Biomechanoid]

Spoiler

I don't know. I see the Night King far more a dangerous villain than any Targaryen, Lannister, or Baratheon. Those leaders/tyrants wanted to rule over the population of Westeros. The Night King wanted to annihilate the entire population.

I see your point that makes him similar to Sauron, but that doesn't change the fact that once the Night King was destroyed the population was no longer in danger. Sure one of them human leaders that might go wacko and wipe out a few thousand here and there (like psycho Dany), but none of them had grand designs to wipe out the entire population.

But I suppose that's why the less dangerous human tyrants are the grand finale star villains. If the Night King got top billing, then it's too close to Tolkien's tale. However, considering what we got, a LOTR copy wouldn't have been so bad anyway.

[close]

[Local Trouble]

As I recall, what kwisatz quoted was from an interview with GRRM himself back in 2014.

EDIT: Yep...

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

[kwisatz]

Spoiler

I don't know. I see the Night King far more a dangerous villain than any Targaryen, Lannister, or Baratheon. Those leaders/tyrants wanted to rule over the population of Westeros. The Night King wanted to annihilate the entire population.

I see your point that makes him similar to Sauron, but that doesn't change the fact that once the Night King was destroyed the population was no longer in danger. Sure one of them human leaders that might go wacko and wipe out a few thousand here and there (like psycho Dany), but none of them had grand designs to wipe out the entire population.

But I suppose that's why the less dangerous human tyrants are the grand finale star villains. If the Night King got top billing, then it's too close to Tolkien's tale. However, considering what we got, a LOTR copy wouldn't have been so bad anyway.

[close]

Annihilation seems to be the ultimate threat to an individual or a society, but is it really?

Personally i think i'd prefer simply dying over living in a 1984 type of society for example.

Cause i consider both being brainwashed-tortured all day and living opportunistic and muzzled in a society commiting horrendous crimes at minute intervals as the worst forms of existence i can imagine.

Therefore I'm more interested in fictional stuff that approaches the latter, i guess.

LotR is a great read though, don't get me wrong.

[Biomechanoid]

As I recall, what kwisatz quoted was from an interview with GRRM himself back in 2014.

EDIT: Yep...

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

"The Red Wedding, upon broadcast, became the most infamously shocking scene in TV history. It angered a lot of the people who watched it. It did so in the books too. In 2000, when the book came out, I got tons of letters from people: "I'm so angry with you – I'm never going to read your work again. I threw the book into the fire, then a week later I had to know what happens, so I went out and bought another copy." Some people were so horrified that they said they will not read any more of my work. I understand that."

Well......that sounds familiar. 

Sounds a lot like all the angry folk on the internets who popped a vein in their temple how the final season was unfolding and declaring they are through with D&D......but watched the final episode anyway. 

[The1PerfectOrganism]

A false equivalence.
The show is over/the ending, the RW is part of the larger story. I didn't remember hearing anyone claiming the RW was anything other than written fantasticly though.
That's the big difference, sad or happy.

[Biomechanoid]

Annihilation seems to be the ultimate threat to an individual or a society, but is it really?

Personally i think i'd prefer simply dying over living in a 1984 type of society for example.

Cause i consider both being brainwashed-tortured all day and living opportunistic and muzzled in a society commiting horrendous crimes at minute intervals as the worst forms of existence i can imagine.

Therefore I'm more interested in fictional stuff that approaches the latter, i guess.

LotR is a great read though, don't get me wrong.

I understand your point, but I find it questionable Martin's explanation on how his universe is written in that his historical fiction is more realistic than LOTR. So if we were allowed to watch King Aragorn collect taxes or hunt down the remaining Orc then LOTR's historical fiction would have been more realistic? . . . . Allrighty then.

Even more telling is this quote from his interview....."About the time of the third book I started getting calls from people in Hollywood. That interest accelerated when the Lord of the Rings movies started coming out, and suddenly studios wanted to do their own Lord of the Rings."

So.....if a studio wants a LOTR clone, who do they call? Martin, Martin, he's our man.

Is GOT truly more realistic than LOTR? It's certainly more graphic....but I'm not seeing a gap so wide Smaug could easily fly through it, between GOT and LOTR regarding realistic historical fiction.

A false equivalence.
The show is over/the ending, the RW is part of the larger story. I didn't remember hearing anyone claiming the RW was anything other than written excellently though.
That's the big difference, sad or happy.

Possibly, your prerogative to call it a false equivalence but there's no denying the hatred Martin received appears to be more demonstrative when his literary fans are resorting to book burning, according to Martin himself.

Sure there was a flood of youtubes by basement bloggers along with thousands of fans lighting up comments sections that greeted season 8, but I don't recall anyone claiming they smashed their disc collection of GOT.  That said, we are at least on common ground in that D&D delivered poor writing.

[The Old One]

Spoiler

Well, I know I for one have no intention of owning GoT on home media anymore, and that's because of the ending.
It's rewatchability is kneecapped for myself.

[close]

Regardless, I think if you're discussing the book at this point and GRRM's literary world, I'll point you to
the A Song Of Ice and Fire thread.

[Biomechanoid]

Spoiler

Well, I know I for one have no intention of owning GoT on home media anymore, and that's because of the ending.
It's rewatchability is kneecapped for myself.

[close]

Understood, but the difference between "you not intending to buy it" and purchasing the disc collection then destroy it out of anger, are far apart. Which I was pointing out that literary fans' anger for Martin appears to be more demonstrative if they are resorting to book burning. ....or maybe thousands of GOT tv show fans have claimed they destroyed their GOT discs, but I haven't seen those claims anywhere.

[kwisatz]

Is GOT truly more realistic than LOTR? It's certainly more graphic....but I'm not seeing a gap so wide Smaug could easily fly through it, between GOT and LOTR regarding realistic historical fiction.

The impression i get from the TV series is hat Martins books are more realistic for example in how they depict human characters.

In LotR the moral compass for most of the characters is more or less fixed and predictable and can only vary tremendously under the influence of a magical device like the one ring.

Seems to me in GoT characters can fundamentally realign their entire personality due to incisive experiences or over time in a more gradual way (except for Disney Daenerys of course, who was supposed to become the Aragorn of Westeros from the getgo – it is known).

This just one example but for me a crucial one to make the whole thing appear more realistic...