Playing AvP2 Again - Thoughts & Comments

Started by Corporal Hicks, Aug 09, 2010, 11:58:54 AM

Author
Playing AvP2 Again - Thoughts & Comments (Read 3,369 times)

Le Celticant

Problem with the 'stealth' system of AVP2 is that the AI benefit of poor script.
It's basically the following:
-Patrol / Dialogue / Stand Still
Then comes the f**cked up part when you do an attack all AI sync to:
-'trigger player' which means they are focused on you, no matter their visibility, they aim at you, even through walls and only the difficulty makes the difference of their proper aim.

While in the other hand, you have AVP3's AI which doesn't focus to the player after an attack if you hide and they continue their patrol like nothing happened.

Game needs balance.
AVP3 graphics with AVP2 storyline & environment with AJL Mod R3.0 would be the ultimate AVP game.
But since SEGA doesn't want to release a SDK I don't see this happening  :-[

Kimarhi

Yeah, they can also see you in the dark pretty easy.  But you can still sneak about undetected if your cautious enough.

MadassAlex

MadassAlex

#17
Insofar as things we can't change go, AvP2010's system is the lesser evil. Flawed stealth > no stealth.

And yeah, I've noticed that the Alien campaign often has a stealth option, but it's a very scripted form of stealth. What I appreciated about many elements of the Alien gameplay of AvP2010, especially towards the end, is that it started putting you in compromising you situations that you had to reason your way out of. Good timing didn't hurt, either.


Kimarhi

I still buzzsawed through about every Alien campaign.  The problem with being a biomechanical monster that can tear limbs from people with ease is that its not condusive to wanting to play as a stealth based creature.

My main gripe with the SP in AvP2010 would probably be that the humans had to many hp and while you launched into a long finishing move the other live rines would finish you off.

That said, buzzsawing is still possible in AvP3, you just have to spread the rines out.

When the AvP games force you to play as Solid Snake, or force you to play as Rambo, I'll probably no longer be interested in the franchise.  The option to be able to do both is important.

They are 8' tall creatures with acid blood and retractable killing weapons completely covering their body after all.

MadassAlex

MadassAlex

#19
AvP2010 might've been a tad too limiting in one direction, but I again find it the lesser of two evils. Keeping the AvP2010 system and tweaking the enemy marines to have less health and to block less often would fix the situation just fine.

Remember as well that the marines have weapons completely capable of tearing an Alien apart. While the Alien's strength and resilience shouldn't be understated (and for the most part, AvP2010 is a clear winner when it comes to depicting this), the level of danger that pulse rifles and smartguns represent shouldn't be understated.

The general idea is to close the distance with guile, cleverness and stealth before opening up in a torrent of furious stabbings. AvP2 essentially used the pounce as a workaround, whereas AvP'99 and AvP2010 dealt with that issue with much more character.

As an aside:

I see the ideal AI having six levels of awareness.


  • Sleeping or unconscious, essentially unable to perceive the player character for whatever reason.
  • Regular, everyday, pedestrian awareness. Represents how mindful you or I are of our environment and surroundings when doing something mundane.
  • Patrol. The level of awareness one is when looking for things out of the ordinary, but not looking for any one thing in particular. This would be the default awareness level of enemy AI.
  • Aware. When an enemy combatant is aware that something is wrong, but can't line up a target. Begins to alert allies at this stage.
  • Seek and Destroy. An awareness rating for when an enemy combatant cannot see you but is aware of both your nature and general presence.
  • Open Fire. For when you are in direct line of sight.

Kimarhi

I don't disagree about the rines having enough firepower to disintegrate Aliens completely.  We have bullets that can pass trough tanks fired from regular assault weapons now.  In the future, the firepower will be even more stunning.

Despite the aliens natural defenses, its going to have problems.

That said, the Alien should have a clear physical advantage on every human opponent it encounters unless a future FPS adds technologically modified cyborgesque humans.  The blocking aspect should be ENTIRELY absent from the game against either the pred or aliens and their sole means of defense should be from their technological advantages alone.

AvP4 also needs to include a system were transitioning from multiple opponents is much easier than AvP.  AvP is clearly meant to be a single opponent game with its lack of exploding weapons, its lack of strong repeating weapons, and its focus attack mode, as well as its drawn out finishes and grapples.

The headbite should return as a freefire weapon and not a random finisher for unsuspecting victims as well, simply because its faster.


AvP3's major problems are its combat system as well as its total lack of horror in the SP.

MadassAlex

I agree with your fundamental point, but I don't think the single-target nature of the combat system is the issue. In fact, I think it'd be great if Rebellion didn't shoot themselves in the foot by making the Predators so initially overpowered in multiplayer and so rare and powerful in singleplayer.

The Alien campaign had a severe deficiency of Predator battles. And when they did show up, they failed to take advantage of the combat system, since the Predators were so powerful and always had an ace up the sleeve. It would've been better if the Alien experienced Predators as high-health enemies that were effective in hand-to-hand but otherwise just as vulnerable as anyone else.

When it comes to the headbite, I don't know how I feel. I'm not displeased that it was worked into the kill animations, but I am displeased that the Alien lost a powerful melee attack that went a long way to balancing the game in the Alien's favour for skilled players. If the combat system is going to work, I can't see the headbite making a return as it'd be too powerful, not to mention the regen and stealth kills making it functionally redundant. I'd rather see the Alien given a more powerful edge in hand-to-hand combat, such as faster heavy attacks or light attacks that damage through blocks (or both!).

Kimarhi

My problem with the lack of headbite on live opponents was it simply took to long with the other kill animations.  It used to take just a couple of seconds to headbite a fool then move on.  Now you have deaths that almost take double digit amounts of seconds and can get you killed if their are multiple enemies around.

Its not just the Alien that AvP2010 forces you to think single combat, but every other species as well.

The only multi kill weapons in the game are the predators mines, and if your highly skilled at aiming for multiple people heads the disc blade, and the marines grenades.

It takes away from some of the fast pace intensity of the other games when all the enemy types have high hp than normal and you ave to "deplete" that hp before moving on to another opponent.

MadassAlex

I suppose it depends on what you ultimately value.

Personally, I prefer the slower pace. It rings truer to the franchises. I agree that it can be overly limiting, but I don't see the inherent issue in setting the game up in such a way that small-scale combat is favoured.

Kimarhi

Kimarhi

#24
Because part of what made Aliens famous is the overall intensity of multiple aliens coming to get you, and you having to put them down before they get there.

Forcing the issue on more singular combat takes away from the swarm aspect.  Some Alien purist don't like Cameron's nod to the franchise.  I however am a series purist, and think the swarm aspect should continually be part of the AvP action.  It is to limiting to just be stalked by the Alien or the Pred.  Large scale battles in the first two AvP's were appreciated.  Also, the combat system is limiting against human based enemies and weapons.  It sucked having no powerful weapons to take on the androids in the SP, making an enviroment that would take 5 minutes to advance a twenty minute ammo gathering trial of boredom as you continually scrounged about for ammo to take out all the bulletsponging synths. 

Likewise if your a marine facing multiple marines in mixed species tdm, your screwed because of the lack of splash/multiple hit damage you can inflict on multiple enemies.

AvP and AvP2 included this.  When AvP2010 had you fighting multiple aliens/synths it felt awkward and forced. 

I don't know, for 3-6 people multiplay, AvP2010 is fine.  Any bigger than that, it just feels like an awkward mess.

I rank AvP2010 as the weakest in the AvP franchise so far, even though I wonder if the combat system would bother me as much if it had a better story, more interactivity, and more varied enviroments.


MadassAlex

The thing is that the Alien movies feature combat with more than one Alien exactly twice, both times being in Aliens. In both those cases, it wasn't one marine gunning down a bunch of Aliens, it was a team of marines holding out. It suggested that Aliens respond to force in kind, not that they used swarm tactics as a general thing. 

The combat system doesn't limit long-range battles in any way, perhaps apart from enemy health and that's not exactly part of the system. Even Predators go down very quickly in MP, allowing you to switch targets. I even watched my younger brother take on three Aliens at once as a marine and win. It's definitely possible.

Personally, I believe the constant desire of media creators in this franchise to increase the scale only ever harms it. The AvP comics and films are good enough evidence of this. A focus on smaller-scale confrontations between more evenly-matched enemies that results in confrontations sometimes taking a while to resolve is entirely in character for each individual franchise and something that should be supported.

As for the weapon set, I think it reflects the reduction of scale. Some weapons never really needed to exist, such as the grenade launcher or rocket launcher (both of which are made redundant by the pulse rifle in any case). The minigun was a fun addition, but combining it with the smartgun was pretty much the right move, since there's small point in having two powerful, rapid-firing heavy weapons in the game.

It seems that we value different things, though. I prefer the horror element to be a part of the base gameplay and for the decisions in the game design to reflect that.

chupacabras acheronsis

Quote from: MadassAlex on Aug 11, 2010, 08:50:30 PM

  • Sleeping or unconscious, essentially unable to perceive the player character for whatever reason.
  • Regular, everyday, pedestrian awareness. Represents how mindful you or I are of our environment and surroundings when doing something mundane.
  • Patrol. The level of awareness one is when looking for things out of the ordinary, but not looking for any one thing in particular. This would be the default awareness level of enemy AI.
  • Aware. When an enemy combatant is aware that something is wrong, but can't line up a target. Begins to alert allies at this stage.
  • Seek and Destroy. An awareness rating for when an enemy combatant cannot see you but is aware of both your nature and general presence.
  • Open Fire. For when you are in direct line of sight.

thats exactly what you are taught on self-defence courses, but its classified in colours: white, yellow, orange, red, purple and black.

MadassAlex

Hooray.  :D

Corporal Hicks

I'm an avid fan of AvP2010. As a Marine, I love nothing more than those Survivor matches with a few other friends taking on the Aliens. The combat system is so much more involving and intense. Even in multiplayer, it's not that hard to take on multiple Aliens. Well, it can be hard but not impossible and only makes it that much more tense for me. There was one instance where I took on 4 Aliens alone as a marine. Took 3 out before the last one had flanked me and ended me. Quite rightfully as I wasn't watching my back once I'd done.

While I do love Aliens and I like the various comics and etcs based around the swarm idea, I don't feel it to be a regular occurance or something I'd like to see done regularly. It's this aspect that reduces them to fodder in many of the released media. I much prefer the Alien or Alien3 portrayal.

Hence why I love playing the Alien in the game so much.

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy AvP2 - Hence why I've started this thread which has gone wildly off topic - I just like AvP2010 better. I feel like I'm playing something based more closely on the franchise.

Anywho, I feel it maybe time to get back onto the topic of AvP2.

MadassAlex

AvP2 has the best plot, characters and setting the AvP franchise has ever seen, even at almost 10 years old. Respect knuckles.

AvPGalaxy: About | Contact | Cookie Policy | Manage Cookie Settings | Privacy Policy | Legal Info
Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Patreon RSS Feed
Contact: General Queries | Submit News