Can we just forget about the Predator Hierarchy?

[PredBabe]

Ah I did not know this, that is interesting.

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/concept/storyboard02.jpg

And there it is, thanks for posting that and the Bad Blood clips!

[Wysps]

An arm, and a piece of a gauntlet, a spear tip(And he has no excuse on that one!), his friggn' bio-mask.

The hunt in Predator 2 seemed to hold more meaning than a bunch of hick aliens getting their thrill on just another hunt. The fact that none of the others stepped in makes me think that it was some sort of coming of age ritual that City Hunter failed to complete (on many levels as has been pointed out)... which reverts back to the idea that there is some sort of hierarchy amongst them when they go on these glorified hunting trips.

I do find it interesting that originally, CH was to get his head taken off by Greyback. As in, executed for screwing up so bad.

Ah I did not know this, that is interesting.

I think the thread's title threw me off for the message being sent. Just to be clear, I don't agree with AVP's interpretation of hierarchy, but the general concept that they do have it in their society I think is only a given. I don't think blooding is so out of the realm of possibilities for some tribes/groups to practice but the way that it was presented in AVP does make it sound like all do it and it does cheapen the experience of the hunters in the actual Predator movies.

I think it would be fair to also say that "respect" they can have for their opponents and "honor" is more how they rever individuals of their own species based on their skills, stories and accomplishments.

Respect and honor are related too, at least imo – they can definitely live in the same space and in the end, it could just boil down to semantics depending on how you apply the idea.  I guess for some people, they'd argue that in order to be capable of respect, you must possess a sense of honor to begin with - but that's more along the philosophical side of things which isn't my bag    So anyway, because of this, it's reasonable to believe that Predators place some level of importance on honor, even though we haven't been outright shown it in the movies.   

I like to think of my Predators as less virtuous but I can see where the honor point of view comes from. 

Spoiler

An example could be with Broken Tusk when he tried to save Dr. (got to pull out my AVP omnibus now watch out) Revna when he was strapped to that gurney in the lab.

[close]

[OpenMaw]

Ah, but that was down to the rules of the hunt.

Predators were there to fight and train against a contained group of aliens. Not to go around slaughtering humans. Killing Revna would have not only gone against their hunting rules, but also gone against the rules to this particular hunt. Those younger Predators were real assholes in that comic. Poor doggo.

[happypred]

Nothing wrong with a rough ranking system...why would the predators, an intelligent combat-oriented species, not have one? Surely hunters of different skill level/depth of experience will order themselves into a rough hierarchy?

[OpenMaw]

Oh there's nothing wrong with them having a hierarchy. The problem is when it becomes a focal point.

The Klingons got trashed pretty badly because of the emphasis on them being "warriors" and having "honor." Every Klingon story started being about honor, and warriors heart, and to be a warrior is to be klingon, and protecting the honor of the house is a warriors duty. Some of the dialogue they gave to the Klingon characters was so circular and vacant that it just ruined all the bite they used to have as characters.

It got in the way of later Klingon characters from developing individual personalities. They were all harping about this same mudane, dull, plodding, GNDN stuff.


What's great about the first film is that everything we learn about the Predator's behavior is basically observational. "He came in to get the body... He's killing us one at a time." "..Like a hunter."  "No! Leave it. He didn't kill you cause you were unarmed... No sport."

These theories end up being proven. There's some kind of a code there, but it's not locked down.

[PredBabe]

An arm, and a piece of a gauntlet, a spear tip(And he has no excuse on that one!), his friggn' bio-mask.

The hunt in Predator 2 seemed to hold more meaning than a bunch of hick aliens getting their thrill on just another hunt. The fact that none of the others stepped in makes me think that it was some sort of coming of age ritual that City Hunter failed to complete (on many levels as has been pointed out)... which reverts back to the idea that there is some sort of hierarchy amongst them when they go on these glorified hunting trips.

I do find it interesting that originally, CH was to get his head taken off by Greyback. As in, executed for screwing up so bad.

Ah I did not know this, that is interesting.

I think the thread's title threw me off for the message being sent. Just to be clear, I don't agree with AVP's interpretation of hierarchy, but the general concept that they do have it in their society I think is only a given. I don't think blooding is so out of the realm of possibilities for some tribes/groups to practice but the way that it was presented in AVP does make it sound like all do it and it does cheapen the experience of the hunters in the actual Predator movies.

I think it would be fair to also say that "respect" they can have for their opponents and "honor" is more how they rever individuals of their own species based on their skills, stories and accomplishments.

Respect and honor are related too, at least imo – they can definitely live in the same space and in the end, it could just boil down to semantics depending on how you apply the idea.  I guess for some people, they'd argue that in order to be capable of respect, you must possess a sense of honor to begin with - but that's more along the philosophical side of things which isn't my bag    So anyway, because of this, it's reasonable to believe that Predators place some level of importance on honor, even though we haven't been outright shown it in the movies.   

I like to think of my Predators as less virtuous but I can see where the honor point of view comes from. 

Spoiler

An example could be with Broken Tusk when he tried to save Dr. (got to pull out my AVP omnibus now watch out) Revna when he was strapped to that gurney in the lab.

[close]

Yeah there is definitely that blurred line between the two terms. "If it quacks like a duck"...

Haha, I love the less virtuous Predators but there's no doubt I have a guilty pleasure for the cheesy, honorable/friendly ones. You'll see me smiling from ear to ear when I watch or read about them. 

Ah, but that was down to the rules of the hunt.

Predators were there to fight and train against a contained group of aliens. Not to go around slaughtering humans. Killing Revna would have not only gone against their hunting rules, but also gone against the rules to this particular hunt. Those younger Predators were real assholes in that comic. Poor doggo.

Not sure how different the comic is but the book is all about the honor system. He also respected Dr. Revna for saving him... and yeah the younger Predators were assholes.

So we can assume that there are rules or codes for their hunts and when those rules are broken there is some form of repercussion. The disgraced hunter is deemed... dishonorable? Hypothetically, had they gone with the idea of Elder beheading CH at the end of P2, you could argue that it is implied that CH was dishonorable to Greyback. Of curse we didn't get that ending and I kind of suspect this was because they wanted Harrigan to overcome the beast and the ending was left vague enough for interpretations.


Greyback still looks unimpressed at the end, almost like "pick his ass up, we're leaving in 5".

[OpenMaw]

The novel is basically just the expanded version of events. The comic, to it's credit, is actually framed and paced very much like a film. It almost feels like colorized storyboards at times.

Revna goes out to Iwa Gorge (or was it Bereki Canyon? I can't remember which was which.) and finds the Predator hunting party has landed. Before he can really react he ends up driving his hover craft into Broken Tusk and destroying their landing craft.

It's literally handled in about two pages worth of panels. One of the other Predators picks up a roasted human skull and crushes it in his hand. The rest of the hunting party are shown in a big wide shot all cheering and roaring. It's pretty clear what's being implied. The Predators are now free from the shackles of their supervisor, and are out for revenge and glory.



Their first stop is to butcher outliers from the colony. They kill a whole family including their dog, and the only reason the kid doesn't get ganked is because he steals a hover car and get's away.

Meanwhile some of the other humans go after Revna, find the desolation left behind, and the barely living Broken Tusk.

When Broken Tusk protects the doc, he deflects his initial= attack on her, and then what we see is he takes note of the bag of skulls the younger Predator is carrying around, and proceeds to kick the shit out of him.




There are some good bits added into Prey, but I much prefer the simpler visual, film-like, implications of the original comic.


The prequel comic has Scott and Tom on the Lector talking about humanity, evolution, survival, etc, while Predators prepare and head down for a separate hunt on another planet. There's some interesting, albeit on-the-nose conversation there.

[Wysps]

Respect and honor are related too, at least imo – they can definitely live in the same space and in the end, it could just boil down to semantics depending on how you apply the idea.  I guess for some people, they'd argue that in order to be capable of respect, you must possess a sense of honor to begin with - but that's more along the philosophical side of things which isn't my bag    So anyway, because of this, it's reasonable to believe that Predators place some level of importance on honor, even though we haven't been outright shown it in the movies.   

I like to think of my Predators as less virtuous but I can see where the honor point of view comes from. 

Spoiler

An example could be with Broken Tusk when he tried to save Dr. (got to pull out my AVP omnibus now watch out) Revna when he was strapped to that gurney in the lab.

[close]

Yeah there is definitely that blurred line between the two terms. "If it quacks like a duck"...

Haha, I love the less virtuous Predators but there's no doubt I have a guilty pleasure for the cheesy, honorable/friendly ones. You'll see me smiling from ear to ear when I watch or read about them. 

Ah, but that was down to the rules of the hunt.

Predators were there to fight and train against a contained group of aliens. Not to go around slaughtering humans. Killing Revna would have not only gone against their hunting rules, but also gone against the rules to this particular hunt. Those younger Predators were real assholes in that comic. Poor doggo.

So we can assume that there are rules or codes for their hunts and when those rules are broken there is some form of repercussion. The disgraced hunter is deemed... dishonorable? Hypothetically, had they gone with the idea of Elder beheading CH at the end of P2, you could argue that it is implied that CH was dishonorable to Greyback. Of curse we didn't get that ending and I kind of suspect this was because they wanted Harrigan to overcome the beast and the ending was left vague enough for interpretations. 

Oh, there's definitely a place for cheesy, honorable Predators - I'm with you there, gf  Like I said, I think it's justifiable to think that in order to respect a code of conduct, you need a sense of honor in order to, well, honor that code.  Or respect, or pride.  It's semantics, honestly.  One person can view it as honor, another as pride in the ways of the hunt.  They kind of mean the same thing in this instance, but one establishes a virtue while the other doesn't.  I read through some more AVP and saw "honor" pop up a couple more times in different places...but again, it's AVP and I know people have different opinions on where that fits in.

Oh there's nothing wrong with them having a hierarchy. The problem is when it becomes a focal point.

The Klingons got trashed pretty badly because of the emphasis on them being "warriors" and having "honor." Every Klingon story started being about honor, and warriors heart, and to be a warrior is to be klingon, and protecting the honor of the house is a warriors duty. Some of the dialogue they gave to the Klingon characters was so circular and vacant that it just ruined all the bite they used to have as characters.

It got in the way of later Klingon characters from developing individual personalities. They were all harping about this same mudane, dull, plodding, GNDN stuff.

What's great about the first film is that everything we learn about the Predator's behavior is basically observational. "He came in to get the body... He's killing us one at a time." "..Like a hunter."  "No! Leave it. He didn't kill you cause you were unarmed... No sport."

These theories end up being proven. There's some kind of a code there, but it's not locked down.

I like how the most recent trilogy of novels handled the Predators.  Even when we witnessed them communicating with each other, there always remained an air of mystery.  The author hammered away countless times about "us not being able to understand them" and "they're so different (psychologically)" etc.  I liked that.  That's part of the appeal for me, that they are so different - they're allowed to be badass and otherly, yet roughly relatable without being exactly like us (social heirarchy and all). 

[Berend]

I like the ' clan ', ' Young/Old ' , ' honor no honor ' concepts on a interpretation level. But not as true established facts that every sequel or spin off must abide by..  canon if you will.

With the Predator, along with nearly  every other movie monsters I like knowing as less as possible. I like to preserve that 'mythical' quality about them. After all it's no fun to have the protagonist of sequel 17 say " WHAT THE F IS THAT AND WHAT DOES IT WANT FROM US' If we audience already know.
Less is nearly always more in horror entertainment. Which is why with nearly every horror movie fanbase there is always a certain consensus of 'movies should have stopped somewhere here', be that somewhere in the middle ( or with the even more extremists out there ) right after the original.

I think its totally legit for people to think the original Pred had an honor code. He only went after those who could defend themselves ( man and woman alike ) and gave Dutch a chance for a hand-to-hand combat.

however one could easily interpretate it the other way going off with Dutch's speculation that it was simply 'no sport' no fun, just boring and a waste of ammo and beneath his skill yadada..

Off course each sequel stamps things more firmly whenever an element gets repeated and stays more consisted.
With Predator you actually have the advantage because its never the same killer. Not the same person or character, call it what you will. Just the same species. Sure on a conceptional basis they are, but you can easily get away with Pred 2 being much more bloodthirsty, more reliant on his tech, more reckless and yet at the end more cowardly than the first Pred. Because hey' it could have easily been his brother, distant nephew, his secretarry from work or asshole uncle.. maybe totally unrelated.


So yeah I'm fine with the people liking the ranking system or disliking the disliking similarities.

Along with many other franchises over the years I've been able to say " for me it stopped at movie 2
Sure I'll watch any future movies as long as I feel it will give me 2 hours of entertainment and I'm happy to pay for it.
Didn't really like Predators that much and I could take or leave the AVP movies. They all have redeeming qualities for sure and I'll get to watch The Predator at some point in my life. But for what I've heard and seen in the trailers my feelings are surprisingly meh. Especially since I was quite anticipating it when it was first announced. But you wouldn't have to drag me in kicking and screaming either. Maybe I'll watch it with a friend if both of us feel like it, and if not.. Eh..

I have a different feeling to the Star Wars franchise at the moment. The last movie was so insulting I will not go see ep.9
It stopped at movie 6 and it stays at there as far as this mind is considered, and that is ultimately the most important. No matter what any director, writer or producer says on any interview.

Its a win-win situation for me. I get to keep the autonamy of the stuff that I like by keeping them in nice little bubbles of their best quality while rooting out as much as the flaws as possible. while also keeping the cash in my pocket and spend them on the stuff that I DO like.

And sometimes on rare occasions a sequel can totally surprise you with something that makes you go " hey, never considered that but yeah, I can see that working "
Prometheus did that for with the black goo and funnily enough Covenant undid that for me with 'David created them all" ~Ridley Scott

I'll always try to stay open minded for new ideas but when it sucks and I can say 'nope, sure it happened for the director and his vision but never happened for me'

[PredBabe]

Respect and honor are related too, at least imo – they can definitely live in the same space and in the end, it could just boil down to semantics depending on how you apply the idea.  I guess for some people, they'd argue that in order to be capable of respect, you must possess a sense of honor to begin with - but that's more along the philosophical side of things which isn't my bag    So anyway, because of this, it's reasonable to believe that Predators place some level of importance on honor, even though we haven't been outright shown it in the movies.   

I like to think of my Predators as less virtuous but I can see where the honor point of view comes from. 

Spoiler

An example could be with Broken Tusk when he tried to save Dr. (got to pull out my AVP omnibus now watch out) Revna when he was strapped to that gurney in the lab.

[close]

Yeah there is definitely that blurred line between the two terms. "If it quacks like a duck"...

Haha, I love the less virtuous Predators but there's no doubt I have a guilty pleasure for the cheesy, honorable/friendly ones. You'll see me smiling from ear to ear when I watch or read about them. 

Ah, but that was down to the rules of the hunt.

Predators were there to fight and train against a contained group of aliens. Not to go around slaughtering humans. Killing Revna would have not only gone against their hunting rules, but also gone against the rules to this particular hunt. Those younger Predators were real assholes in that comic. Poor doggo.

So we can assume that there are rules or codes for their hunts and when those rules are broken there is some form of repercussion. The disgraced hunter is deemed... dishonorable? Hypothetically, had they gone with the idea of Elder beheading CH at the end of P2, you could argue that it is implied that CH was dishonorable to Greyback. Of curse we didn't get that ending and I kind of suspect this was because they wanted Harrigan to overcome the beast and the ending was left vague enough for interpretations. 

Oh, there's definitely a place for cheesy, honorable Predators - I'm with you there, gf  Like I said, I think it's justifiable to think that in order to respect a code of conduct, you need a sense of honor in order to, well, honor that code.  Or respect, or pride.  It's semantics, honestly.  One person can view it as honor, another as pride in the ways of the hunt.  They kind of mean the same thing in this instance, but one establishes a virtue while the other doesn't.  I read through some more AVP and saw "honor" pop up a couple more times in different places...but again, it's AVP and I know people have different opinions on where that fits in.

I think that's a perfect summation of the honor concept. 



It sounds as though The Predator will at least individualize the Predators featured, so that to me is exciting. I'm hoping we see more of their reactions that give them personality which was something that was lacking in Predators. In general I've come to the conclusion that life is too short to not have a sequel of my favorite movie monster. I'm looking forward to seeing a creative interpretation play out and if I don't like it, well, it won't ruin my own headcanon.

[BigDaddyJohn]

I think the Captured can indeed have some cool individualization, and if the script roughly translates through the film despite some changes, he will definitely be a badass.

[OpenMaw]

Well, up until he

Spoiler

get's ganked.

[close]

[BigDaddyJohn]

Well, up until he

Spoiler

get's ganked.

[close]

Spoiler

Indeed  but i hope they grant him a more badass way to go too, there is room for it i think

[close]

[DaddyYautja]

Making them teenagers that hunt us for ceremony is what makes it scaaaaaary.

[The Cruentus]

Personally I am on the fence about it, on one hand, I think having respect (which would come with a tad bit of honor) is what seperates them from the indiscriminate killing machines that is the Xenomorphs, it gives them some character, on the other hand, I don't want them humanized. While it was pretty horrible that those predator went after the family and even killed the dog, it make sense for another species not to regard another with any emotion, especially a species that it regularly hunts. Its not evil either, to them its completely normal which is natural, I mean actual hunters on earth don't give much thought about their kills, no matter what it is, yet they all friendly with their fellow huntsman and brag about their trophies.
Same goes for food, I never think about cows, chickens or anything else I eat, its just food to me, so a stronger predatory species will likely feel nothing for us unless we get its attention. Kind of like how we hold respect for dangerous animals that could poison us.