Prometheus or Alien Covenant?

Started by Frosty Venom, Oct 04, 2018, 05:57:26 PM

Which do you like better?

Prometheus
70 (50%)
Alien Covenant
70 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 139

Author
Prometheus or Alien Covenant? (Read 34,280 times)

Necronomicon II

"It's intriguing the degree to which David endeavors to communicate with Walter through such allusions to human literary products, e.g., to M. R. James ["Oh, Whistle, and I'll Come to You, My Lad"], to Carl Sandburg ["Fog"], to Shelley ["Ozymandias"], etc.)."

Shakespeare, as well, romanticism abounds -


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovjeUp_AhCs

https://www.sparknotes.com/nofear/shakespeare/hamlet/page_180/

There's a lot to chew on, if you're receptive enough. To each their own, though.

Jarac

Jarac

#166
Covenant. I liked the characters a lot more, I felt the story was more cohesive, I liked the greater ties to the Alien franchise, etc. Prometheus was more ambitious, but it was so disappointing for me. Prometheus said it would answer questions and it did... with more questions.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#167
"There is...nothing."  ;D

But here's some juiciness -

https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/alien-covenant-disturbing-sexuality/

:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*


Fifield may have loved rocks (without examining a single one bar the pyramid  :D), but I LOVE COCKS.  ;D :-*

The Old One

The Old One

#168

I just hope third time's the charm;D

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#169
I can go all night bebe  ;D




"No one understands the lonely perfection of my memes, er, dreams."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/brightlightsfilm.com/god-dead-shadow-long-ridley-scott-alien-covenant-horror/amp/

https://filmfreedonia.com/2017/05/21/alien-covenant-2017/amp/

"Alien: Covenant is a highly perverse hymn to creativity as a natural law and urge (ding ding ding ding ding ding!), manifesting in whatever form it will. Scott's professional drive to keep working, so often the source of critical suspicion of his output, is constituted by him as the essence of his being.
Scott does more than make a horror film here; he makes a film about the horror genre, its history, its place in the psyche, analysing the way the death-dream constantly underlies all fantasies of ego and eros. Scott reaches out for a hundred and one reference points, some of the already plain in the Alien series lexicon.
The deserted Engineer city recalls the Cyclopean confines of the lost cities in Lovecraft tales like At the Mountains of Madness, the Elder Gods all left gorgonized by David's perfidy.


At one point Scott recreates Arnold Böcklin's painting "Isle of the Dead," an image that obsessed H. R. Giger, the crucial designer behind so much of the Alien mythos, as much as it did Val Lewton, whose cavernously eerie psychological parables redefined horror cinema in the 1940s; Scott no doubt has both in mind.

David's "love" for Elizabeth, which has taken the form of relentlessly exploiting her body to lend genetic material to his creations, is both reminiscent of a particularly tactile serial killer worthy of Thomas Harris and of the obsessive, invasive eroticisation of the loved one's cadaver found in Poe, whilst the whole meditates as intensely and morbidly on its landscape of Poe's poetry. The design of the failed prototype xenomorphs and David's rooms hung with sketches reminiscent of medieval alchemic ephemera both pay tribute to Guillermo Del Toro's films and also poke Del Toro's oeuvre back for its own debt to Scott and Giger.

A head floating in water comes out of Neil Jordan's self-conscious unpacking of fairy tales, https://filmfreedonia.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/the-company-of-wolves-1984/ (1984). The touch of Captain Branson's death struck me as a possible tip of the hat to Dark Star (1974), in which the captain had died in similar circumstances, and which was of course made by Alien co-writer Dan O'Bannon.

Late in the film Scott stages a shower sequence that sees Upworth and Ricks having a hot and steamy moment under the spigot only to be surprised by a xenomorph. At first glance this sequence revels in a trashier brand of horror associated with 1970s and '80s slasher films, but Scott also adds self-reference – the xenomorph's tail curling in demonic-penile fashion around their legs calls back to the similarly queasy shot in Alien when Lambert was attacked by the monster, whilst also nodding back to Hitchcock and Psycho (1960). It's staged meanwhile with all the pointillist precision of Scott's most fetishistic visual rhapsodies – spraying water like diamonds playing over soft flesh, fogged glass, grey knobbly alien skin, and the inevitable rupture of red, red blood.

Which points to another quality of Alien: Covenant – its deeply nasty, enthusiastic commitment to being a horror film, an anarchic theatre of cruelty and bloodlust barely evinced in any other film of such a large budget, especially in this age of gelded adolescent fantasies. If it's still not the deep, dank leap into a barely liminal space like the original, it is perfectly confident in itself and bleakly poetic in unexpected ways."



As for the significance of Wagner's Das Rheingold -

"I would place emphasis on "Valhalla," Hall of the Fallen (in combat, honorably). In this context, David is entering the deck that has the frozen travelers (pilgrims, if you will).

In Valhalla, we get the imagery of Odin and the many worthy dead chosen by his Valkyries for training and fighting in the realm of the Aesir to prepare for Ragnarok.

While Odin himself was a semi-subversive God who sometimes intentionally brought about human conflict to increase his own ranks, David presumably takes this position to use these many worthy souls to concoct and perfect his conception of the human/xenomorph hybrid for waging his own Ragnarok on human/engineerkind.

If you contrast it to the title of "Covenant," which in my mind is very much tied to the ideas of Puritan/Pilgrim immigration from England to the New World and that whole fantasy/mythos. Obviously its all horribly subverted as these cryosleep pilgrims, who are essentially dead and waiting to be reborn, have an entirely new reward for the initial covenant/contract they had taken or made in embarking on this journey.

Whether you also take Covenant in its religious sense is up to you. Life being a journey and the idea of promises to god or congregations are everywhere and everywhen.

I think the fabric of the Valhalla references is stronger when considering the mythos of the titan Prometheus and Hesiod's Theogeny. Prom steals fire for mankind and all that jazz, he gets punished for it. Down the road, Hercules sets him free.

Meanwhile, Theogeny is one example of the succession of hierarchies; Ouranus to Cronos and the titans to Zeus and the Olympian gods. Throughout Classical Greek literature and mythology(from which ideas are carried over into Roman mythology), there is always an idea of the gods, especially Zeus, trying to prevent their fated decline or overthrow.

You can compare that to the engineers trying to destroy their own creations, only to be destroyed by their other creations intended for the destruction of the first.
...

The reference (to Ozymandias), I thought, was supposed to inspire the sense of that poem: a memento mori. That is to say, everybody dies eventually (special ironic emphasis is placed on people with power or aspirations to grandeur). David says it while looking out over the ruins of the engineer's temple-city-thing. In this regard and while considering the whole "We're better than humans, let's kill/surpass them," the sense of Greek God lineage/succession and the transience of life/power are all emphasized. David pokes a hole in the assumed timelessness of human hegemony when in truth, the death of engineers (human progenitors), should be a reminder that a similar fate is in store for them. We might even apply this to David himself in assuming his invulnerability with respect to the xenomorphs."

As important as the idea of David's godlike view of himself, is the revelation of his imperfection. Just as he mistakenly attributes Ozymandias to Byron instead of Shelley, so in his last line he requests "Richard Wagner, Das Rheingold, Act II; 'The Entry of the Gods into Walhalla'." Rheingold is one single act. I haven't seen this pointed out anywhere, but the writers certainly knew it (note, writer John Logan is an accomplished playwright). It's the final irony of David's monstrous hubris, as he goes off to freeze his regurgitated face-hugger embryos."


Still Collating...

These articles you keep finding are very nice and quiet a fun read. I don't agree with all the statements I've read in them, but most are thought provoking and it does help me appreciate the movie more.

Wow, never noticed the Act II mistake! That's big, it's certainly not a mistake on the writers part, because the piece that plays isn't even from the 2nd scene as to be easily confused, but from the 4th, final scene. And not having acts segment the story was a big deal for Wagner, so I'm too guessing it's intentional. Very cool, it does put David in a different light at the end. Hinting at just how faulty he is getting.

Necronomicon II

 8) 8) 8)
My pleasure.
Yeah one needn't agree with it all, but we need more substantive film discourse, and less cinema sins et al.  :D ;D

Still Collating...

Agreed there!  :laugh:

Yeah, these two prequels are not perfect but at least the deeper themes give it more layers that move people to make such passionate analyses. And I love seeing that, finding out that there is more to a movie than meets the eye.That's how my appreciation for Alien 3 grew over time. We can have fun movies and we can have even the rare phenomena of a movie that's actually logical without characters making the worst decisions, but just as well I like when a movie has a deeper theme, a poetic undertone which is the biggest thing that saves the prequels for me.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#173
I vote that the majority of the cast in the next one be a small team of androids because WY figured that they would get the job done (plus it'll be different). ;D

PsyKore

PsyKore

#174
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 02, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
As important as the idea of David's godlike view of himself, is the revelation of his imperfection. Just as he mistakenly attributes Ozymandias to Byron instead of Shelley, so in his last line he requests "Richard Wagner, Das Rheingold, Act II; 'The Entry of the Gods into Walhalla'." Rheingold is one single act. I haven't seen this pointed out anywhere, but the writers certainly knew it (note, writer John Logan is an accomplished playwright). It's the final irony of David's monstrous hubris, as he goes off to freeze his regurgitated face-hugger embryos."

Yeah, this was a nice touch. I think this was counted as a "goof" by imdb. :laugh:

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#175
 :D Christ...


It retroactively makes David's 36 hours line (not in the script btw, Fass ad libbed) in Prometheus foreshadowing for his loopy programming as well. You're welcome.  ;D

Still Collating...

Ooooo that's a nice one!  :o

As for having an all android cast, I'd love to see that in a movie. The problem is that it then begs the question of why don't WY send an all android team out more often in the later movies? Don't know if it would work as a prequel, but as of happening after A3, why not? To regulate the concern of why the original trilogy doesn't have teams of androids, it can easily be explained that it is due to cost, laws or (if we go the prequel rout) that the last time that happened it went so catastrophically bad that WY will never try and do it again.

Necronomicon II

I'd put it down to "older models" being screwy and cultish in regard to crushing on David ha. That could be the story, android cult doing weird sex stuff to engineers, WY humans get thrown into the mix at some point, writes itself.   8)

The Old One

The Old One

#178
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 04, 2019, 01:55:02 PM
Writes itself.   8)

That's not always a good thing, while I think some of your ideas are very creative and in the context of Covenant I enjoy David as the creator- I'm not too keen on the idea that he's responsible for everything the crew of the Nostromo finds on LV-426, or HR Giger-ish structures on another world; that's way way too much. 

First Blood

I think both are kinda shite honestly. But if I were to choose, it would be Covenant. Better characters, and it captures the look and feel of the original film.

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