So many off-screen kills in Predator 2... Why ?

Started by BigDaddyJohn, Jan 15, 2018, 09:50:01 PM

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So many off-screen kills in Predator 2... Why ? (Read 2,047 times)

BigDaddyJohn

I always wondered why there was so many off-screen kills in P2 (the whole colombian crew, gold tooth in the apartment, king willie, danny, jerry lambert...) since we know who and what the predator is... I'd get that if it wasn't a sequel, and since the movie has a faster pace than the first one, a more "hysterical/nervous" tone, it's even more weird to me..

Don't get me wrong though, i love P2 and the scenes i mentioned above, but i just wanted to know if anyone asked himself this question as i did, and what is your opinion about it...

JokersWarPig

I kind of figured that was supposed to add to the mystery that was surrounding Harrigan. All he saw was the after math of each killing and so did we. For the most part anyways.
For all of the deaths he did see first hand we did get to see.

ralfy

I suppose it's because the film is set in a heavily populated and crime-ridden city.

BigDaddyJohn

Yeah i guess that make sense, and there was so many group killings too.

Scorpio

The first Predator had a few off screen kills as well.

BigDaddyJohn

Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 16, 2018, 01:10:06 PM
The first Predator had a few off screen kills as well.

True, Hopper's team and Billy. Can we consider Hawkins death off-screen though ? I'm not saying you're consider it to be one, but i think we can ask ourselves the question... I mean it was so fast and almost immediately cut it could be considered partly off-screen...

Scorpio

Hawkins death, yes.  A cheap thing where you just see a blood spatter.  It's good how they leave some kills to the imagination, though.  What they showed with the aftermath of Hawkins death is better.

JungleHunter87

I know the film was cut down a few times to make it an R-rated feature. Before the cuts, it was NC-17, due to the graphic scenes of violence. That's partly why, I guess. you don't see as many on screen deaths? SM, SiL, or HuDaFuK would know more about that though.

BigDaddyJohn

Quote from: JungleHunter87 on Jan 17, 2018, 04:10:49 AM
I know the film was cut down a few times to make it an R-rated feature. Before the cuts, it was NC-17, due to the graphic scenes of violence. That's partly why, I guess. you don't see as many on screen deaths? SM, SiL, or HuDaFuK would know more about that though.

Yeah i know, would love to see that !

D88M

maybe they did not have so much budget to show a proper carnage? i have no idea, i never thought aabout it i just guessed it was the structure of the movie as to put us in Harrigan POV

OpenMaw

Predator is one of the master class in building up the suspense. You get one after math that we have no first-hand witness to (Hoppers team). Then you get the voyeuristic POV shots. Billy getting spooked by something he can't see. Then, BAM,  Hawkin's death. It's mostly left to the imagination because it is the first time one of our heroes is coming up against the Predator. You build UP the suspense, not down. A splash of blood for Anna, a violent scream, and a spectre dragging Hawkins' body off into the jungle. That's all you want or need for the first kill.

Now, for Predator 2. The general idea is that, yes, you're supposed to be getting the information from Harrigan's POV. All he's seeing are massacres-in-the-aftermath. The problem is the film wants to try and go both ways, having the slaughters happen on screen, but not showing too much. Most of the slaughter doesn't really serve a purpose beyond pure indulgence in the carnage. The other big problem is that 90% of the kills are neither main or supporting characters.


The prevailing wisdom is, it's a sequel. So we need to be bigger and have more. More Predator gadgets, more guns, more violence, explosions, gore, and a bigger body count. On the other side of that is the writers going... Okay, it's set in the city, our best "soldier" analogue here is going to be street cops, SWAT teams, and FBI agents.... We'll make it like a COP film, like a murder mystery! Yeah!

Those two things meet, and the result is something that ends up deluding both sides of the equation. You're not getting pay offs in totality, and you're not really giving the main character any kind of working mystery. We already know what's going on before Harrigan even shows his face. Part of the problem is the way the narrative is framed in the film.

I've always wanted to try, as an editing exercise, trying to remove all of the Predator stuff in the opening battle. Cutting it more like a conventional Die Hard-style action sequence where we simply watch Mike taking out the bad guys, then they see some kind of an explosion, go up to investigate the slaughter, and the first time we even get a nod that the Predator is actually around is when Mike sees it cloaked on the roof.

I think the strongest section of the film is in the wake of the subway slaughter when Mike is basically chasing the Predator from the subway to the slaughter-house to the Predator ship, because the plot, character, and audience are now all in sync with each other.




D88M

you make good analysis

JungleHunter87

QuoteI think the strongest section of the film is in the wake of the subway slaughter when Mike is basically chasing the Predator from the subway to the slaughter-house to the Predator ship, because the plot, character, and audience are now all in sync with each other.

How much do you think it effected the film focusing more on the police force as opposed to Keyes and following his team?  Do you think there would have been more of a mystery by taking what we learned in the first film with OWLF and going from there? As opposed too wiping the slate clean and taking a similar journey we already had in the first film. Up until the point you mention?

BigDaddyJohn

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 18, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
Predator is one of the master class in building up the suspense. You get one after math that we have no first-hand witness to (Hoppers team). Then you get the voyeuristic POV shots. Billy getting spooked by something he can't see. Then, BAM,  Hawkin's death. It's mostly left to the imagination because it is the first time one of our heroes is coming up against the Predator. You build UP the suspense, not down. A splash of blood for Anna, a violent scream, and a spectre dragging Hawkins' body off into the jungle. That's all you want or need for the first kill.

Now, for Predator 2. The general idea is that, yes, you're supposed to be getting the information from Harrigan's POV. All he's seeing are massacres-in-the-aftermath. The problem is the film wants to try and go both ways, having the slaughters happen on screen, but not showing too much. Most of the slaughter doesn't really serve a purpose beyond pure indulgence in the carnage. The other big problem is that 90% of the kills are neither main or supporting characters.


The prevailing wisdom is, it's a sequel. So we need to be bigger and have more. More Predator gadgets, more guns, more violence, explosions, gore, and a bigger body count. On the other side of that is the writers going... Okay, it's set in the city, our best "soldier" analogue here is going to be street cops, SWAT teams, and FBI agents.... We'll make it like a COP film, like a murder mystery! Yeah!

Those two things meet, and the result is something that ends up deluding both sides of the equation. You're not getting pay offs in totality, and you're not really giving the main character any kind of working mystery. We already know what's going on before Harrigan even shows his face. Part of the problem is the way the narrative is framed in the film.

I've always wanted to try, as an editing exercise, trying to remove all of the Predator stuff in the opening battle. Cutting it more like a conventional Die Hard-style action sequence where we simply watch Mike taking out the bad guys, then they see some kind of an explosion, go up to investigate the slaughter, and the first time we even get a nod that the Predator is actually around is when Mike sees it cloaked on the roof.

I think the strongest section of the film is in the wake of the subway slaughter when Mike is basically chasing the Predator from the subway to the slaughter-house to the Predator ship, because the plot, character, and audience are now all in sync with each other.

It's actually really great ! I imagined the opening scene as you described it, and it would have been really interesting !

Huggs

Huggs

#14
If I had to guess, I'd say it was to build suspense and add mystery. I think with certain types of creature-based films, off-screen kills are a good thing. When you have large monster movies like Godzilla or Pacific Rim, the big attraction is seeing these titanic monsters duke it out. Not to mention, they're so enormous that it would be hard not to notice giant monsters fighting in the middle of a city.

With movies that revolve around Predators and Aliens, there's room for mystery there. Seeing a quick shot of the Predator in the distance as it drops bill paxtons mutilated body and bolts out of sight is (I think) far more frightening than seeing the predator do his thing up close as Glover moves into the shot. And sometimes, what you hear is worse than anything you could see. The predator shriek and blood drops when Danny is killed on the roof is flat-out scary. This coupled with the description of death by the M.E. (much akin to the examination dialogue from Jaws) really give you a sense of the severity of what was done, without having to see it.

It all really comes down to personal preference. Some people wanna see the carnage. Some think hearing a scream and finding a blood trail leading up into a vent as more scary.

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