https://twitter.com/Stingray_travel/status/1745970146173178176
-------------------------
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/noah-hawley-prometheus-alien-prequel-fx-1235787276/amp/
Quote"Ridley and I have talked about this — and many, many elements of the show," Hawley says. "For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. The idea that, on some level, it was a bioweapon created half an hour ago, that's just inherently less useful to me. And in terms of the mythology, what's scary about this monster, is that when you look at those first two movies, you have this retro-futuristic technology. You have giant computer monitors, these weird keyboards ... You have to make a choice. Am I doing that? Because in the prequels, Ridley made the technology thousands of years more advanced than the technology of Alien, which is supposed to take place in those movies' future. There's something about that that doesn't really compute for me. I prefer the retro-futurism of the first two films. And so that's the choice I've made — there's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
https://www.kcrw.com/culture/shows/the-business/fargo-season-5-amazon-layoffs
full interview here.
Noah is NOT a fan of the way Covenant explained the origin of the Aliens.
he straight up says he prefers that the "alien is a creature that has existed for millions of years".
so yeah looks like the new movie and show are just retconning Covenant.
(unsurprising - with Ridley failing to make Alien Destiny due to the illogical way that they were trying to tie covenant to the original movie AND with David being insane - not even able to tell that his favourite poem is a diss on megalomaniacs like himself and not even being able to know who actuallly wrote it. David was always unreliable).
Hicks may never get to see David suit up as the space jockey and crash the derelict on LV-426. :'(
Thank God for that.
i LIKE david creating the aliens.
but whatever. sure. Just gonna let Hawley cook, see what he brings to the table.
I like it in the context of Covenant, and in conversation with the other Alien films, as a hypothetical it is interesting but as a definite, it is very limiting.
Just when I thought I couldn't lose any more interest I
actually gain some.
I thought you were the biggest proponent of David the Creator.
Hmm my interest has piqued.
Personally, I think he should just excise the prequels completely. They can just stay in their own continuity and have little to no bearings on the original films.
But then again.. this is a TV series..
This is fantastic news! Cassette-futurism *and* course-correcting on Xenomorph origin? I'll be honest, I've went from being highly apprehensive about this show to being really interested! I love Prometheus and. Covenant, don't get me wrong, but I'm very happy with this. Let's see how it turns out. 😃
Much like Star Wars, if I see a creative shit on the prequels I assume they're the most boring kind of nerd. I'm still keen, but anyone media illiterate enough to think David created the Alien, I would much prefer they didn't touch the prequels anyway.
Ridley 100% meant for David to be the one that CREATED the alien in covenant.
anyway -
https://twitter.com/THR/status/1746236467494703142
if people check the quotes and replies. lots of people are hating this. lol
Quote from: skhellter on Jan 14, 2024, 01:24:00 AMif people check the quotes and replies. lots of people are hating this. lol
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oKIPzLXQYb2Bn5PLG/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Jan 14, 2024, 01:13:38 AMMuch like Star Wars, if I see a creative shit on the prequels I assume they're the most boring kind of nerd.
I'm definitely the most boring kind of nerd. I've been using the prequels as my personal toilet for going on 25 years now.
Pandering.
Palps looks chubby.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:31:37 AMPandering.
It's about time the Panderstone worked to our favor.
I must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 01:41:18 AMI must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
It can be both intentional
and stupid. Both things can be true.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:44:11 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 01:41:18 AMI must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
It can be both intentional and stupid. Both things can be true.
Just as how this sounds intentional
and lazy.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:53:55 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:44:11 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 01:41:18 AMI must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
It can be both intentional and stupid. Both things can be true.
Just as how this sounds intentional and lazy.
Indeed. I'm still not convinced it won't be shite. I'm fully expecting it to trample the lore in other ways that will make me hate it.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:54:55 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:53:55 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:44:11 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 01:41:18 AMI must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
It can be both intentional and stupid. Both things can be true.
Just as how this sounds intentional and lazy.
Indeed. I still not convinced it won't be shite.
I really don't know why but I have zero interest in this and Romulus.
I'll still watch them though. Hopefully they'll be good.
You have truly achieved Kolinahr.
Also apprehensive about the TV series. Again, prefer no Alien encounters before the Nostromo crew at this point.
Noah Hawley this year has topped one of the most affecting and creative anthologies in the last ten; with a direct unshy tackling of the subalternization of women in the latest entry, whilst not obscuring the full fidelity even in their abusers and the character of good men, this guy does not do lazy. f**king period.
I like what I'm reading here!
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 14, 2024, 02:18:32 AMNoah Hawley this year has topped one of the most affecting and creative anthologies in the last ten; with a direct unshy tackling of the subalternization of women in the latest entry, whilst not obscuring the full fidelity even in their abusers and the character of good men, this guy does not do lazy. f**king period.
Sure sounds lazy right now. Hope I'm wrong.
It's not, he did the same thing with the X-Men, he sidestepped and reinterpreted, and it only really benefitted Legion.
There's nothing lazy about what Hawley is doing.
It seems like he's putting a lot of effort into making something that, until this post, hasn't sounded the least bit like Alien but with the name slapped on.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:58:28 AMI really don't know why but I have zero interest in this and Romulus.
I'll still watch them though. Hopefully they'll be good.
Probably same reason as me mate. Gettin' too old for this shit *wailing sax*
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 02:49:58 AMThere's nothing lazy about what Hawley is doing.
It seems like he's putting a lot of effort into making something that, until this post, hasn't sounded the least bit like Alien but with the name slapped on.
I don't see how retconning Covenant, a film that copped criticism from fans for David creating the Alien, isn't lazy. It's a very simple way to get a lot of people on board if you ignore the thing they don't like.
But as I said, I genuinely hope I'm wrong.
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Jan 14, 2024, 02:51:49 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:58:28 AMI really don't know why but I have zero interest in this and Romulus.
I'll still watch them though. Hopefully they'll be good.
Probably same reason as me mate. Gettin' too old for this shit *wailing sax*
Possibly lol. 😄
My biggest surprise is that Ridley Scott is producing an 'alternative timeline' story that ignores his prequels.
If Scott, the man himself, sees value in Hawley's story then that, to me, is a powerful endorsement.
TC
Yeah I thought that was odd, but only so far as Ridley changes his mind a lot so not that odd. If he thinks it's an interesting story, then continuity be buggered.
Covenant already felt like a "oops, changed my mind" sequel given how Shaw just dies off screen.
I think that might have been the studio rather that Riddles.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 02:56:22 AMI don't see how retconning Covenant, a film that copped criticism from fans for David creating the Alien, isn't lazy.
That'll depend entirely on how it's done. Retconning something deeply unpopular is not lazy in itself.
Hell, I'd be surprised if Scott himself didn't end up doing it if he did his third film, the same way he ended up putting the Alien in when he wanted to move even further from it.
If they just ignore it, I guess that's lazy. If they explain it, no.
Quite.
Hence my use of 'sounds lazy'. I have no idea if it actually is yet.
I'll take it. It "could" be lazy. Or, it could be a course correction that even Scott may have realized. We don't know.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 03:42:04 AMQuite.
Hence my use of 'sounds lazy'. I have no idea if it actually is yet.
Didn't you hear about Wendy and Tootles?
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 03:42:04 AMQuite.
Hence my use of 'sounds lazy'. I have no idea if it actually is yet.
I think the word we're
really looking for is cowardly.
I love Covenant. I love David as the creator in the context of this film.
I'm also very excited to see what Hawley has up his sleeve in a different direction here.
'Retcon' may be an assumption too far. Hawley said that the prequel's idea of the alien's evolution is "not useful" to him. It could be that all he's doing is ignoring it.
Much as Tony Gilroy had no interest in space wizards in Andor. He didn't retcon all those magical force powers like interstellar telepathy, astral travel, psychic projection etc. He simply ignored them.
TC
Jedi had no reason to be in Andor.
Ignoring when Aliens were invented to the point of changing it could potentially be rather different.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 04:24:42 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 03:42:04 AMQuite.
Hence my use of 'sounds lazy'. I have no idea if it actually is yet.
I think the word we're really looking for is cowardly.
Yeah that works. I'd be more interested if he played the hand he was dealt.
Which he may yet do to be fair.
Quote from: TC on Jan 14, 2024, 05:17:56 AM'Retcon' may be an assumption too far. Hawley said that the prequel's idea of the alien's evolution is "not useful" to him. It could be that all he's doing is ignoring it.
Much as Tony Gilroy had no interest in space wizards in Andor. He didn't retcon all those magical force powers like interstellar telepathy, astral travel, psychic projection etc. He simply ignored them.
TC
Andor not featuring Jedi doesn't mean that Jedi aren't out there. Hawley's show featuring Aliens before
Covenant, which explicitly states that David created them, is a retcon by nature of explicitly going against what was established in the previous film.
It's fine,
Covenant already retconned
Alien's intent that the Alien is ancient organism. This series is built on retcons of so many things from one movie to the next, really. The egg on the Sulaco, Ripley's blood sample, David creating the Alien, etc. It's all pretty much par for the course with this franchise at the rate – but that doesn't make it any less of a retcon in this instance.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 14, 2024, 05:23:57 AMQuote from: TC on Jan 14, 2024, 05:17:56 AM'Retcon' may be an assumption too far. Hawley said that the prequel's idea of the alien's evolution is "not useful" to him. It could be that all he's doing is ignoring it.
Much as Tony Gilroy had no interest in space wizards in Andor. He didn't retcon all those magical force powers like interstellar telepathy, astral travel, psychic projection etc. He simply ignored them.
TC
Andor not featuring Jedi doesn't mean that Jedi aren't out there. Hawley's show featuring Aliens before Covenant, which explicitly states that David created them, is a retcon by nature of explicitly going against what was established in the previous film.
You're right. I forgot about the date jump.
TC
if the movie ends up contadicting covenant would we have a canonical impasse?
by contradiction i mean
alien existed prior to david
tech dowmturn cannot easily be axplained away
this is an "if it(mentioned contradictions) transpires" question.
curious
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:17:43 AMif the movie ends up contadicting covenant would we have a canonical impasse?
If it shows aliens existing prior to Covenant without explaining it, that just means David didn't create them. He only thought he did, and their true origins would remain a mystery.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 06:22:03 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:17:43 AMif the movie ends up contadicting covenant would we have a canonical impasse?
If it shows aliens existing prior to Covenant without explaining it, that just means David didn't create them. He only thought he did, and their true origins would remain a mystery.
was covenant depicting david as the sole creator of the alien(1979 big chap)? i ask because i dont know what the general consensus answer to that question is.
are you happy if that(david not being the original creator of the alien we see in the movie alien 1979) turns out to be the case local in this series of noah?
sorry for probing your mind. i dont want to put you on the spot. these are not simple questions to answer.......
lol
(https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/mind-meld-valeris.jpg)
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:26:32 AMwas covenant depicting david as the sole creator of the alien(1979 big chap)? i ask because i dont know what the general consensus answer to that question is.
SM and SiL say yes.
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:26:32 AMare you happy if that(david not being the original creator of the alien we see in the movie alien 1979) turns out to be the case local?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExa2VxeG5pbXpjY3N0cXJlNWhheGdkcjY0ZzEzYWN6bDJ2YjJvcWVuaSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/INnuQ1Z7VaHrRTEkyk/giphy.gif)
ty very much appreciated.
local
Without knowing anything of the story or setting - the tech issue could easily be handled by having the characters on an older ship/ station/ whatever. Prometheus and Covenant were brand new so had all the mod-cons. No bugger is going to remember that one dude in the background who had a handheld hologram unit.
QuoteSM and SiL say yes.
Ridley and the film say yes.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 06:36:32 AMQuoteSM and SiL say yes.
Ridley and the film say yes.
Which you ratified. That's when it became true.
just curious about things that might point to canonical contradictions. not the end of the world. but interesting non the less.
I wonder if ralfy will still consider this a reboot.
Yes Hawley.........NUKE THE SCOTT PREQUELS! NO MERCY! 8)
As much as I despise Prometheus, hopefully Hawley creates something worthwhile and it isn't just more brown eye licking fanboyism of the first two movies. It would be nice to have something that stands on its own two legs without continually referencing LV426, Hadleys Hope, that particular jockeyship, quotes from the first two movies, characters from the first two movies, and new characters who are related to characters from the first two movies.
If Hawley does this successfully then maybe he can also convince DIBNEY to bring back not big doofus blue bald guys as the jockeys.
Quote"For me, and for a lot of people
LMAO, a crowd argument. I never have a good opinion on this dude but now he sounds like an unmature redditor.
But I respect (because I share) an idea about "vision of the story". I believe there should not be a general canon or a continuity for Alien Universe*. It's better when every movie or several movies with one plotline or TV series have their own vision which works only for them. Creativity freedom for the win.
* Like with Godzilla or 007 franchises.
Hey, hey.. it's okay for it to be lazy.. at this point, i'd rather it be lazy... than awful.
I don't think it's lazy tho.
Work smart, not hard, and the smartest thing to do would be to just drop the prequels rather than inventing this convoluted workaround that redirects the original intent of those prequels.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 06:22:03 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:17:43 AMif the movie ends up contadicting covenant would we have a canonical impasse?
If it shows aliens existing prior to Covenant without explaining it, that just means David didn't create them. He only thought he did, and their true origins would remain a mystery.
It's that simple really.
In my head I prefer to think that David stole/recreated a formula for creating the Xeno, in the same way The Engineers stole their tech from the Jockey.
The Franchise just seems to be getting messier and messier. It's fun to some extent and I genuinely like the creative talent involved in these projects but the time line, continuity is really starting to lack cohesion and a smooth seamless trajectory. I think for that I'll just stick to the first 3 films and let everyone else have their own fun and creative interpretation of this popular franchise.
It's like a kid playing with Lego without the instructions. Just go wild I guess. Anything to bring in a new audience.
I still think Prometheus had a good amount of potential for it to be it's own singular universe, to some extent.
I desliked Covenant for so many reasons.
Character wise I found them all a load of nothing.
The only character I seemed to actually like died in the first 20 minutes.
I think those complications would still be around, particularly with the Space Jockey. They would just have to give some exposition on screen on why the Engineers aren't the Space Jockey, and if that happens, I would prefer a show don't tell approach because I think that's more impactful.
But I'd rather remove the Engineers in their entirety.
If they show the Engineers worshipping the Space Jockeys, I would totally be fine with that.
Quote from: T Dog on Jan 14, 2024, 09:19:25 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 06:22:03 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 06:17:43 AMif the movie ends up contadicting covenant would we have a canonical impasse?
If it shows aliens existing prior to Covenant without explaining it, that just means David didn't create them. He only thought he did, and their true origins would remain a mystery.
It's that simple really.
In my head I prefer to think that David stole/recreated a formula for creating the Xeno, in the same way The Engineers stole their tech from the Jockey.
that be wonderful. if only...it .....would happen.
Then all we'd have left is the BLACK GOO.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 09:50:32 AMThen all we'd have left is the BLACK GOO.
The goo was extracted from Xeno DNA and formulated by a mysterious long dead Alien, it's older than they are.
Quote from: T Dog on Jan 14, 2024, 10:04:46 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 09:50:32 AMThen all we'd have left is the BLACK GOO.
The goo was extracted from Xeno DNA and formulated by a mysterious long dead Alien, it's older than they are.
It still lacks any sort of impact and consistency. I'm also pretty sure authors in general don't really know what to do with it, so they just do whatever. Exception being Alex White.
Different story if it was actually derived from the Aliens tho.
This is a series that is creatively stuck in the past.
We've had two prequel films, one film that's stuck between two classics and now a TV show ,that's coming our way next year, that's going to be yet another prequel.
Surely there's interesting stories to be told after A:R ?
They don't need to be straight up sequels either.
Just on the basic premise of Alien Romulus (scavenger kids in space) alone sounds like it could have brought the series into the future, especially if you're going to go down the route regarding the after effects of The Auriga crash, a ship that had its own myths and rumours from the outside and now it has emphatically crashed itself into a bleak, dystopian earth. From outside there's alot questions there about why this came to be.
Maybe the kids in Romulus stumbled upon the famous xeno once again when traversing through space, when all speculation of the beast died out and just became mere myths or rumours.
Creatively I think you have more breathing space (boom,boom) to go from there than to make a film that's wedged between two others, personally speaking.
Chronologically this is a weird franchise. People just want to go further and further back.
*sigh* prometheus scripts explains what the goo really is.
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 10:59:00 AM*sigh* prometheus scripts explains what the goo really is.
Is that at all set up on screen?
Many of the script versions of the Pathogen are contradictory to each other and importantly what ended up on film.
Confirmed this show is before Covenant? Or before Alien79?
And those of you who are in favor think that he said he was going to change the Alien cycle and reinvent a lot. If you don't mind breaking the canon and it's easy to solve chronologically after Covenant, imagine EVERYTHING you'll do without fear of the fans.
He WILL do what he wants even if you don't like David as a creator. It's one thing not to talk about it and another to break canon.
Characters not talking about David8 is normal. Nobody knows what happened or created the Alien. Only David know.
The characters in the series can investigate in their context without knowing anything about David. An independent plot in the same universe without contradicting but reinventing.
BUT
Setting the series before Covenant and inserting a canonical Alien is ridiculous and childish.
It can be set after Covenant without a problem for the series.
I like that it reinvents and is a risky series but not just because it breaks the canon as something personal without need.
The Alien was created by David and perhaps the engineers before that. David's Alien evolves to survive with the Alien Queen.
There is no justification for setting it before Covenant and for the ALIEN of '79to come out. There are proto-Aliens or a thousand ways to make a Pre Alien.
And I repeat, if you want to include the classic Alien, NOTHING in your plot prevents you from setting it after Covenant.
Classic alien after Covenant.
NOTHING obliges BEFORE in its plot/series.
It's childish and troll just because, because Noah can.
It is confirmed to be set before Covenant.
H
Quote from: RIP77 on Jan 14, 2024, 11:56:24 AMConfirmed this show is before Covenant? Or before Alien79?
And those of you who are in favor think that he said he was going to change the Alien cycle and reinvent a lot. If you don't mind breaking the canon and it's easy to solve chronologically after Covenant, imagine EVERYTHING you'll do without fear of the fans.
He WILL do what he wants even if you don't like David as a creator. It's one thing not to talk about it and another to break canon.
Not talking about David8 is normal. Nobody knows what happened or created the Alien. only David.
The characters in the series can investigate in their context without knowing anything about David. An independent plot in the same universe without contradicting but reinventing.
BUT
Setting the series before Covenant and inserting a canonical Alien is ridiculous and childish.
It can be set after Covenant without a problem for the series.
I like that it reinvents and is a risky series but not just because it breaks the canon as something personal without need.
The Alien was created by David and perhaps the engineers before that. David's Alien evolves to survive with the Alien Queen.
There is no justification for setting it before Covenant and for the ALIEN of '79to come out. There are proto-Aliens or a thousand ways to make a Pre Alien.
And I repeat, if you want to include the classic Alien, NOTHING in your plot prevents you from setting it after Covenant.
Classic alien after Covenant.
NOTHING obliges BEFORE in its plot/series.
It's childish and troll just because, because Noah can.
Hmm hmm. Okay?
Sorry my english.
I Studied a few years when is not obligated in my country. Now ( since a lot of years ago) is obligated since little boy but in 1970 not. I understand english but write like a robot. Ex-presidents my country not know english for example. IS not excuse is reality for people old in my country. People young know english very good of course, more prepared.
I understand read to me is complicated, sorry. BUT i am A.I
Return comment Alien:
Classic alien ONLY after Covenant.
NOTHING obligate BEFORE in his plot/series.
It's troll because, because Noah can.
His show after Covenant is equal show.
Before Covenant is equal show but break canon.
Is troll.
I Like Noah and change Alien, renovated Alien in his style. Is godd for me BUT is easy , easy NOT break canon. ONLY chronologic AFTER Covenant. EASY.
HIS plot equal BEFORE AND AFTER.
NOAH IS little boy, and Troll.
Alien Classic only after Covenant. IS easy.
Nothing Characters knows David after Covenant. Nothing knows who created Alien. Only publico ( we ) not characters.
Can change origins Alien en HIS CONTEXT BUT after Covenant becose characters not know David8 and information of Covenant.
Reinvent Alien ok but not break only like troll.
(https://media.tenor.com/aWpgPrKw7VkAAAAe/shrek-snap.png)
I think the gist that I'm getting here is that you don't want the classic Alien before Covenant? Or you don't want the Aliens before Covenant as they are now?
He upset.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 14, 2024, 12:00:14 PMIt is confirmed to be set before Covenant.
Eehhhh we'll see.
President FX said before Alien or Covenant?
Ambigued his comment and generic of president FX ¿not?.
Is important after or before for canon.
Noah is good, i like his style for show Alien and reinvent .. ok. I accept.
But MY limite is break canon Covenant like a fanatice troll.
After Covenant is better and easy to Noah. No complicated in his plot.
My opinion.
You Hate Covenant and David like Creator is good , is you opinion but SHOWRUNNER is not fanatic twitter and not ought break canon like fanatic boy of internet. NOAH is profesional.
Nothing justificed introduce his show before Covenant and introduce Alien classic. IS VERY VERY easy introduce Show tv Alien cronologic after Covenant.
They mentioned it being before Alien while it was still being written. It's possible that changed.
QuoteThe series will be a prequel to the original "Alien," taking place before Ripley ever graced the screen. The FX executive said that Hawley's show will take place on Earth at the end of the 21st century, roughly 70 years from now. No characters from the original movies will be involved.
https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/alien-fx-series-will-be-like-first-two-movies-1234747809/
This quote puts the series in the 2090s.
Prometheus is set in 2093.
Alien: Covenant is 2104.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 14, 2024, 01:28:53 PMQuoteThe series will be a prequel to the original "Alien," taking place before Ripley ever graced the screen. The FX executive said that Hawley's show will take place on Earth at the end of the 21st century, roughly 70 years from now. No characters from the original movies will be involved.
https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/alien-fx-series-will-be-like-first-two-movies-1234747809/
This quote puts the series in the 2090s. Prometheus is set in 2093. Alien: Covenant is 2104.
Wow. If that were true the show would technically be a prequel, and a retcon since the Alien would be existing before David's actions. :o
Good thing Noah is embracing the retro aesthetic though, plus the humanity in the Alien universe.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 14, 2024, 01:38:50 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 14, 2024, 01:28:53 PMQuoteThe series will be a prequel to the original "Alien," taking place before Ripley ever graced the screen. The FX executive said that Hawley's show will take place on Earth at the end of the 21st century, roughly 70 years from now. No characters from the original movies will be involved.
https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/alien-fx-series-will-be-like-first-two-movies-1234747809/
This quote puts the series in the 2090s. Prometheus is set in 2093. Alien: Covenant is 2104.
Wow. If that were true the show would technically be a prequel, and a retcon since the Alien would be existing before David's actions. :o
Good thing Noah is embracing the retro aesthetic though, plus the humanity in the Alien universe.
Looks like the whole 'David only created *his* Xenomorph, not the species' debate in the other thread is looking kinda promising right around now. 😉 The alien is ancient according to Noah, in-turn endorsed by producer Ridley Scott. Keen to see whether they fully retcon the events of Prometheus and Covenant, or simply ignore it so we can make of it what we will. At this point I'd be happy with either option. I love those two movies, but they do feel rather 'Marvel comic' material in comparison to the original trilogy. They fit nice with the EU (and games like Fireteam Elite require them), but then ultimate meta-canon for me has always simply been Alien, Aliens and Alien 3, and anything else is just bonus.
At this point I see the franchise very much like Toho's Gojira/Godzilla, or the 'Halloween' franchise ; multiple different eras of canon, that (mostly) always still use the original movie/s as a starting point.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:37:40 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 10:59:00 AM*sigh* prometheus scripts explains what the goo really is.
Is that at all set up on screen?
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=2624586;topic=66984
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:37:40 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jan 14, 2024, 10:59:00 AM*sigh* prometheus scripts explains what the goo really is.
Is that at all set up on screen?
no it isn t. but it(the spaiht s script) does explain that what we see the engineer drink breaks any organism down to a pathogen. hence the black goo was actually what i believe to be a xenomorph creature that ingested whatever the engineer drank and the resulting pathogen it formed(which was designed to write itself into other creature s dna) is what was inside the ampules. it could have been many types of creatures. the original intention for the stuff the engineer drank was to seed itself and aid in upgrading the dna of those living on the planet.
but no it is not clear from the events presented onscreen that this was what was happening. only the spaiht s script really points to this.
i like to refer to this as trc. theatrical release canon. it really points at original intentions.
my point is that the vagueness around the pathogen is intended. and will truly never make sense.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PMhttps://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/noah-hawley-prometheus-alien-prequel-fx-1235787276/amp/
Quote"Ridley and I have talked about this — and many, many elements of the show," Hawley says. "For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. The idea that, on some level, it was a bioweapon created half an hour ago, that's just inherently less useful to me. And in terms of the mythology, what's scary about this monster, is that when you look at those first two movies, you have this retro-futuristic technology. You have giant computer monitors, these weird keyboards ... You have to make a choice. Am I doing that? Because in the prequels, Ridley made the technology thousands of years more advanced than the technology of Alien, which is supposed to take place in those movies' future. There's something about that that doesn't really compute for me. I prefer the retro-futurism of the first two films. And so that's the choice I've made — there's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
Great news. My optimism meter just went up a few notches after reading that.
Quote from: Noah HawleyRidley made the technology thousands of years more advanced than the technology of Alien,
Dude, it's like 30 years more advanced. Could easily co-exist in the same universe and time.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 14, 2024, 02:02:17 PMAt this point I see the franchise very much like Toho's Gojira/Godzilla, or the 'Halloween' franchise ; multiple different eras of canon, that (mostly) always still use the original movie/s as a starting point.
Maybe this is the bigger picture that Ridley Scott sees for the future of the franchise (and with Scott Free producing them all, LOL). That is, numerous alt-timeline stories (basically like we already have with Alien and AvP), that have little or nothing to do with each other in terms of continuity.
So there's one timeline universe consisting of the OG films and the prequels plus possibly
Romulus; and then there's a second timeline universe in Hawley's series; and AvP is yet a third. And let's not mention the alternate ending to
The Predator with Newt/Ripley 'the Predator Killers' which also could have become a thing as a fourth timeline.
Hmmmm... with that last one, it sounds more like the studio (20th Century or Disney) rather than Scott Free, pushing for a multiplicity of canonical timelines. The more the merrier when it comes to IP exploitation, i guess.
TC
Good. Ignore the 'prequels'.
Quote from: RIP77 on Jan 14, 2024, 11:56:24 AMConfirmed this show is before Covenant? Or before Alien79?
And those of you who are in favor think that he said he was going to change the Alien cycle and reinvent a lot. If you don't mind breaking the canon and it's easy to solve chronologically after Covenant, imagine EVERYTHING you'll do without fear of the fans.
He WILL do what he wants even if you don't like David as a creator. It's one thing not to talk about it and another to break canon.
Characters not talking about David8 is normal. Nobody knows what happened or created the Alien. Only David know.
The characters in the series can investigate in their context without knowing anything about David. An independent plot in the same universe without contradicting but reinventing.
BUT
Setting the series before Covenant and inserting a canonical Alien is ridiculous and childish.
It can be set after Covenant without a problem for the series.
I like that it reinvents and is a risky series but not just because it breaks the canon as something personal without need.
The Alien was created by David and perhaps the engineers before that. David's Alien evolves to survive with the Alien Queen.
There is no justification for setting it before Covenant and for the ALIEN of '79to come out. There are proto-Aliens or a thousand ways to make a Pre Alien.
And I repeat, if you want to include the classic Alien, NOTHING in your plot prevents you from setting it after Covenant.
Classic alien after Covenant.
NOTHING obliges BEFORE in its plot/series.
It's childish and troll just because, because Noah can.
That's literally what Prometheus and Covenant did.
I hate the decision, but I honestly believe Ridley Scott tried to come up with something fresh and put a spin on things. Maybe the dreaded "subversion for the sake of subversion" beast reared it's head. It was a good faith effort that in just the context of Covenant was cool, but in the context of the series, it landed with a thud.
Another creator realizing that it is of a lower quality to have the Alien be a recent creation versus the mysterious, old origin and course correcting isn't automatically childish or trollish. It's not like Prometheus doesn't give it a little ammo that David isn't the originator. Of course Ridley and Covenant say different, but there is ample room to paint it as David rediscovering the recipe and being manic in his claims. That would actually fit nicely with what was shown.
Regardless of canon changes, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for cosmic horror, suspense, corporate intrigue, some action and some not quite Alien 3 nihilism.
a funny thought -
maybe the new productions are keeping the post alien 3 timeframe open due to Weaver, in the hopes that she might reconsider.
Quote from: skhellter on Jan 14, 2024, 05:20:25 PMa funny thought -
maybe the new productions are keeping the post alien 3 timeframe open due to Weaver, in the hopes that she might reconsider.
Leave
Britney Ripley Alone!
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jan 14, 2024, 03:08:09 PMQuote from: Noah HawleyRidley made the technology thousands of years more advanced than the technology of Alien,
Dude, it's like 30 years more advanced. Could easily co-exist in the same universe and time.
Yes.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kqkIDH2l_Uo/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://revistacomercioexterior.com/img/revistas/1555091821037.jpg)
There is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 06:37:19 PMThere is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
waspsnest.gif
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:34:05 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:31:37 AMPandering.
It's about time the Panderstone worked to our favor.
Ha! As long as no alternate "you know who" comes about. :laugh:
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:53:55 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:44:11 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 01:41:18 AMI must be a boring, media illiterate nerd as well for thinking that it was very obvious for Scott's intention to have David be the creator of the Aliens.
It can be both intentional and stupid. Both things can be true.
Just as how this sounds intentional and lazy.
You don't want the Alien's origins retconned?
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 01:58:28 AMI really don't know why but I have zero interest in this and Romulus.
I'll still watch them though. Hopefully they'll be good.
You are probably feeling burnt out/disillusioned from what has happened to the franchise. Feel that way too sometimes.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 06:37:19 PMThere is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
There is.
"you engineered these things David?"
"Here is what I wanted to show you, MY successes"
"I have found perfection here, I created it. Perfect organism."
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 06:37:19 PMThere is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
(https://www.scified.com/media/concept006.jpg)
Exactly. It had to exist prior to Covenant. There was a mural with a xenomorph (or something very closely resembling one) in Prometheus.
Mural is Alien or Diacon?. Is different, is proto-Alien.
https://www.americatv.com.pe/cinescape/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/124996.jpg
The question is David create Alien or recreate Alien after Enginers?.
Scott reivent mitology Alien but not breack universe/canon.
All movies are in universe Alien but series Noah change this.
Prequels different universe becose is imposible explained other origin Alien and compatible with origin David/Covenant.
Alien clasic before Covenant is break canon, not reinvent like Scott with prequels.
Show Alien noah is reboot 100% or prequels are other universe...
Scott not break universe but Noah can... This is troll ( i LIKE NOAH and reinvent Alien.. ok i accept new origin but my limited is break universe , Scott new origin yes but not break universe ) becose is easy his show after Covenant with new origin. This hipotetic new origin is theory characters in his context where dont know David and events of Covenant.
Noah can new origin but ambigue after Covenent never before. Before is complicated for fans, for he, for universe Alien... IS break continued line. Is make other universe.
It is a deacon-like creature, not a Xenomorph. All this has been explained before in other threads.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 06:43:40 PMQuote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 06:37:19 PMThere is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
There is.
"you engineered these things David?"
"Here is what I wanted to show you, MY successes"
"I have found perfection here, I created it. Perfect organism."
Yes, my bad but we don't know if David is responsible for the formula. It might have been him creating it from the scratch or taken it from Engineers. It's ambiguous.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 06:51:16 PMIt is a deacon-like creature, not a Xenomorph. All this has been explained before in other threads.
The resemblance is unquestionable. It cannot be coincidence.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 06:43:40 PM"I have found perfection here, I created it. Perfect organism."
There is some illogicality in David's explanation. First he says that he has found it and then that he created it. It's a matter of interpretation not hard evidence that he actually did it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with or like David creating the Alien but in that movie, that was the intent.
Sure he didn't create the black goo but using that as "he didn't create the alien" , well that is sort like trying to salvage something out of the mess, which I do not blame you for. I think I kind of looked for anything to discredit David as well.
Unfortunately the intent of the movie and director is that the Alien as we know it was created by David.
I hate it. It means Aliens only existed for like 20 odd years by the time of the first movie. And by being created by an android, that we created. It means by proxy we created the Aliens too. Though I can appreciete the self-destructive cycle there, it still crapped on the Alien lore imo
Fortunately it does look like its going be ignored and the origin is going be back to being ambiguous and ancient. ;D
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 07:12:28 PMUnfortunately the intent of the movie and director is that the Alien as we know it was created by David.
The intent yes, but at the end it still remains ambiguous if he did or didn't create Alien. Also, this ambiguity could be easily fix in Covenant sequel which very likely isn't going to happen :)
While I do want the origins rebooted which I think is going to happen if indeed Hawley going to ignore the prequels, I did want Ridley to finish his trilogy. If only because I hate cliff hangers :laugh:
Quote from: irn on Jan 14, 2024, 06:47:07 PMQuote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 06:37:19 PMThere is literally no single evidence in covenant that David created xeno. It's just Scott saying that in the interview and we know that Scott sometimes talks too much. Interviews are not part of any canon. Movies are.
https://www.scified.com/media/concept006.jpg
Exactly. It had to exist prior to Covenant. There was a mural with a xenomorph (or something very closely resembling one) in Prometheus.
The very ancient Pathogen creates forms that are similar to the Alien, as depicted there.
The intent of
Covenant (as of 2017, until retconned in the future) is that the specific Alien that we all know was created by David using that Pathogen and its properties as the raw material.
David didn't create biomechanical xeno.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 08:17:03 PMDavid didn't create biomechanical xeno.
Indeed... my head-canon for the biomechanical exoskeleton of the big chap in 'Alien' is that the derelict crew (beyond the Jockey) were eggmorphed, and like their chestburster counterparts, ovomorphs also take on traits of the host, in this case, either a jockey, or if you'd like to include Prometheus, then the Engineers are bio-augmented (the one awoken from cryo in 'Prometheus' is actually naked, the 'suit' is part of his body) therefore it can be assimilated as a trait by the ovomorph/hugger. That is why the creature that burst from Kane is biomechanical, the creatures in 'Aliens' and 'Alien 3' less so due to being laid by a queen (and thus more human DNA in the mix/genetic dilution).
The creature David creates is fleshy as his ovomorphs were made using Shaw, and birthed from a human host. No jockey/engineer in the mix = no biomechanical traits (my personal take).
Head-canons don't matter regarding the real lore. The rule is simple: if it didn't happen in the movie then it doesn't exists. David didn't make biomechanical xeno hence he's not its creator.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 09:12:29 PMHead-canons don't matter regarding the real lore. The rule is simple: if it didn't happen in the movie then it doesn't exists. David didn't make biomechanical xeno hence he's not its creator.
lol, I was agreeing with you 🤣 Biomechanical aliens were a result of eggmorphing thousands of years prior to David's creation, therefore he didn't make them.
The biomech traits were meant to come in later as the alien in covenant is essentially the first draft. David had yet to tweak them further but since there is no sequel, we don't know how the Alien came to be as they appear in the first film.
The RPG weren't fond of the concept either since they make it a point to consider the Alien that David created as a seperate type called a Praetomorph.
"Praetomorph" f**king lol
That what the RPG says. ;D
At this point "morph" has become the Alienverse's equivalent of "smurf".
Let's also turn this forum into morph village:
Spoiler
Corporalmorph
Spoiler
Local morph
Spoiler
SMorph
It seems that Noah Hawley wants to ignore the events in Prometheus and Covenant. That's fine, I guess. Ignoring is not the same as retconning though. I highly doubt Ridley Scott would executive produce a show that retcons his last 2 alien movies out of the franchise continuity.
Not to be confused with the Protomorph, i.e. the Trilobite and the Deacon, which were created by the Fulfremmen; the Fulfremmen, in turn, were created by the Engineers in an attempt to recreate the Xenomorph.
I don't believe that David created the Xenomorph, but he did succeed where the Engineers failed in making a somewhat effective rendition of it. Maybe it's because he's an AI, like the pathogen itself?
Plus, what else did he create? And how did he become a messianic figure among synthetics?
Quote from: kwisatz on Jan 14, 2024, 09:35:59 PMAt this point "morph" has become the Alienverse's equivalent of "smurf".
Let's also turn this forum into morph village:
Spoiler
Corporalmorph
Spoiler
Local morph
Spoiler
SMorph
That seems to be true, Xenomorph means strange-shape (I think) so that was adequate to describe the Alien creatures. Neomorph is I think a fair title since I think it means mutant gene (Neomorphs were indeed mutations) but the morph part does seem to be used a lot. Necromorph from that one book. Beluga-morph as well. Ultramorph.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 14, 2024, 09:38:49 PMIt seems that Noah Hawley wants to ignore the events in Prometheus and Covenant. That's fine, I guess. Ignoring is not the same as retconning though. I highly doubt Ridley Scott would executive produce a show that retcons his last 2 alien movies out of the franchise continuity.
It would be harder to believe if it wasn't obvious that Ridley Scott never gave a shit about franchise continuity to begin with.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 09:21:09 PM"Praetomorph" f**king lol
Is that what they're calling the praetorian now?
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 14, 2024, 09:39:53 PMNot to be confused with the Protomorph, i.e. the Trilobite and the Deacon, which were created by the Fulfremmen; the Fulfremmen, in turn, were created by the Engineers in an attempt to recreate the Xenomorph.
I don't believe that David created the Xenomorph, but he did succeed where the Engineers failed in making a somewhat effective rendition of it. Maybe it's because he's an AI, like the pathogen itself?
Plus, what else did he create? And how did he become a messianic figure among synthetics?
The intent is that he did though. We can nitpick the differences in appearances, murals or what older sources told us until the cows come home but the movie and Ridley wanted it to be that David was responsible for the species, even if the one in the movie is a flawed prototype. I think the commentary mentions it too. The credits call it a Xenomorph as well I think.
EDIT
From the credits.
Xenomorph & Neomorph Goran D. Kleut
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 09:44:03 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 14, 2024, 09:38:49 PMIt seems that Noah Hawley wants to ignore the events in Prometheus and Covenant. That's fine, I guess. Ignoring is not the same as retconning though. I highly doubt Ridley Scott would executive produce a show that retcons his last 2 alien movies out of the franchise continuity.
It would be harder to believe if it wasn't obvious that Ridley Scott never gave a shit about franchise continuity to begin with.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 09:44:03 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 14, 2024, 09:38:49 PMIt seems that Noah Hawley wants to ignore the events in Prometheus and Covenant. That's fine, I guess. Ignoring is not the same as retconning though. I highly doubt Ridley Scott would executive produce a show that retcons his last 2 alien movies out of the franchise continuity.
It would be harder to believe if it wasn't obvious that Ridley Scott never gave a shit about franchise continuity to begin with.
The first movie was balanced out by other creative input like Dan o' Bannon. In Covenant, Scott had free reign.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 09:46:13 PMThe credits call it a Xenomorph as well I think.
The Praetomorph is a type of Xenomorph, so technically that's accurate.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 14, 2024, 09:50:16 PMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 09:46:13 PMThe credits call it a Xenomorph as well I think.
As does Alien: The Blueprints, which refers to it as "the first-born Xenomorph". Clearly incorrect now, of course.
That book also says the Narcissus has three cryotubes.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 14, 2024, 09:50:16 PMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 09:46:13 PMThe credits call it a Xenomorph as well I think.
As does Alien: The Blueprints, which refers to it as "the first-born Xenomorph". Clearly incorrect now, of course.
I wonder how the movie is going to go about retconning/ignoring the prequels though. I am very curious about that now. ;D
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 09:51:06 PMThat book also says the Narcissus has three cryotubes.
Yes, so it's incorrect in some respects.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 14, 2024, 07:30:21 PMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 14, 2024, 07:12:28 PMUnfortunately the intent of the movie and director is that the Alien as we know it was created by David.
The intent yes, but at the end it still remains ambiguous if he did or didn't create Alien. Also, this ambiguity could be easily fix in Covenant sequel which very likely isn't going to happen :)
I don't think it's that ambiguous. Based on the context of Covenant and to an extent, Prometheus, it's pretty obvious the David was meant to be the creator of the Aliens. The mural is, imo, too ambiguous so you could interpret that however which way you like, ie, some people see the deacon, some people see the xenomorph, others see the Alien Queen or Queen Mother, etc... Who cares?
I'm actually really thankful that we never got a sequel to Covenant because since David being the creator was the original intent, it probably would've been set in stone in that would be sequel.
Covenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMpeople who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
That's the in thing now. "Delulu is the solulu."
Or so my niece tells me.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
For his next trick Hawley will retcon Engineers back into space elephants.
QuoteIs that what they're calling the praetorian now?
No, it's what they call the Smasher. Or is it Chrysalis - no that's a record label. Must be Razor Claws.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 10:51:15 PMHawley will retcon Engineers back into space elephants.
I want elephant man!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 10:56:35 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 10:51:15 PMHawley will retcon Engineers back into space elephants.
I want elephant man!
He's an animal.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6d/6c/9a/6d6c9a1d5e9fdd38d4a0983f250c6485.jpg)
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 10:51:15 PMFor his next trick Hawley will retcon Engineers back into space elephants.
Can he please? f**k the Engineers.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 10:51:15 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
For his next trick Hawley will retcon Engineers back into space elephants.
I want my Giger Space Elephants!
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FkpgndnQ7RM/UP6R2P8a56I/AAAAAAAAF44/ULJTYx_BQB8/s1600/aliens+-+apocalypse+-86.jpg)
Saxamamorph.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2024, 11:29:54 PMhttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FkpgndnQ7RM/UP6R2P8a56I/AAAAAAAAF44/ULJTYx_BQB8/s1600/aliens+-+apocalypse+-86.jpg
Saxamamorph.
I'll take it.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
Also, why do people keep saying that the
Prometheus mural is an Alien. His head looks like a deacon's miter...wait!
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 14, 2024, 11:36:12 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
Also, why do people keep saying that the Prometheus mural is an Alien. His head looks like a deacon's miter...wait!
Eh. Depends on how you look at it. I can definitely fit the Alien Queen in there just from the patterns that could form the head crest. I don't think that was intentional tho.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:49:23 PMEh. Depends on how you look at it. I can definitely fit the Alien Queen in there just from the patterns that could form the head crest. I don't think that was intentional tho.
It definitely was intentional, but likely not intended to be literal.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jan 14, 2024, 11:51:54 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:49:23 PMEh. Depends on how you look at it. I can definitely fit the Alien Queen in there just from the patterns that could form the head crest. I don't think that was intentional tho.
It definitely was intentional, but likely not intended to be literal.
Is it really tho? Because I can definitely see the obvious deacon or the Alien or whatever precursor species is on that mural but I only formed the head crest in my head because I was super bored one day.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:49:23 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 14, 2024, 11:36:12 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
It leaves enough space for something to say it's wrong later, yes. It is not, however, vague about what it's trying to say.
Also, why do people keep saying that the Prometheus mural is an Alien. His head looks like a deacon's miter...wait!
Eh. Depends on how you look at it. I can definitely fit the Alien Queen in there just from the patterns that could form the head crest. I don't think that was intentional tho.
I don't know of any Alien whose head ends in a small, pointy end. The mural represents a Neomorph / Deacon.
(https://i.ibb.co/2SSQH6H/4567fcc0c1877088570f9d4396072b29.jpg)
The retcon seems very possible now, but there is no ambiguity in the prequels. According to Ridley David made the Aliens, not his take on the Space Jockey. And He had the plan to get to the bioechanical Alien in the third prequel, which is most likely never going to happen.
Oh dammit.. now I'm seeing the Queen's head crest. Thanks >:(
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:55:02 PMIs it really tho? Because I can definitely see the obvious deacon or the Alien or whatever precursor species is on that mural but I only formed the head crest in my head because I was super bored one day.
I'm fairly certain someone talked about it at the time. But either way, it's a fairly obvious visual wink, without being part of the central figure.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jan 15, 2024, 12:00:42 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:55:02 PMIs it really tho? Because I can definitely see the obvious deacon or the Alien or whatever precursor species is on that mural but I only formed the head crest in my head because I was super bored one day.
I'm fairly certain someone talked about it at the time. But either way, it's a fairly obvious visual wink, without being part of the central figure.
It's that highlighted dome.
Pointless wishful thinking, based on pareidolia. And people keep saying "but look at this in Prometheus, the Alien is ancient, I knew it!"
But why? Who cares if Ridley wanted the Alien to be a modern creation of a synthetic human in the future? The retcon is imminent. 8)
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:59:44 PMOh dammit.. now I'm seeing the Queen's head crest. Thanks >:(
Queen had four arms though, so still not a Xenomorph. :laugh:
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 15, 2024, 12:12:17 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:59:44 PMOh dammit.. now I'm seeing the Queen's head crest. Thanks >:(
Queen had four arms though, so still not a Xenomorph. :laugh:
Neomorph Queen?
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 12:19:31 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 15, 2024, 12:12:17 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 14, 2024, 11:59:44 PMOh dammit.. now I'm seeing the Queen's head crest. Thanks >:(
Queen had four arms though, so still not a Xenomorph. :laugh:
Neomorph Queen?
If I remember reading correctly, the Neomorph didn't have any stages like that. They eventually died and their body produced more spores or something.
That being said, it could easily just be any creature derived from the black goo since they make similar creatures with similar life-cycles.
Interesting... some many people here openly interpreting what they see in the mural (and seeing different things), interpreting what they make of David's less than set-in-stone claims, and interpreting the true origin of the Xenomorph (and whether it WAS really a Xenomorph or something close), in a movie that is definitely and positively so cast-iron that it isn't open to interpretation. 😂 Like I said in the other thread, leave enough holes, and it can still be ambiguous. Directors intention, and what he would/might have done in a movie sequel that will never be made doesn't matter; it's all down to what we get on-screen in the final version. And calling it a Xenomorph in the credits to differentiate it from a neomorph (as opposed to simply saying 'Alien') I still feel is more for the audience's benefit. Nobody had heard of a neomorph until this movie...credit someone with neomorph and someone with protomorph or whatever name you could come up with, and everyone would be scratching their heads as to which creature was being referred to. The latter was clearly closer to Xenomorph than the former. And again, credits don't matter, nobody in the movie itself refers to it as a Xenomorph.
Of course Ridley wanted to make David the creator of the Alien, of course that was his intention. That's not being disputed. Thankfully he sucks at story telling, so the finished product, whilst suggestive, (and beyond a bold claim from an android with a god-complex) still has enough leeway that it can be interpreted multiple ways... such as how Alan Dean Foster interpreted it when adding dialogue in his novelisation. Such as how fans here all interpret it differently from one another.
'Directors intention' makes no difference if it isn't cemented in the final product. In the same way, Ridley's intended life cycle of the Xenomorph didn't matter for the sequel. That wasn't a retcon, as it didn't appear in the original release of the movie, no matter what Riddles intended, so the origin of the eggs were still open to interpretation.
Ridley Scott does not suck at story telling. Lmao
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 15, 2024, 12:48:36 AMInteresting... some many people here openly interpreting what they see in the mural (and seeing different things), interpreting what they make of David's less than set-in-stone claims, and interpreting the true origin of the Xenomorph (and whether it WAS really a Xenomorph or something close), in a movie that is definitely and positively so cast-iron that it isn't open to interpretation.
It's called "cope" these days.
QuoteDirectors intention, and what he would/might have done in a movie sequel that will never be made doesn't matter; it's all down to what we get on-screen in the final version.
What we see is a walkthrough of the process used to create the Alien from scratch, with multiple references to the android creating the Alien. Intention aside, that's what's in the movie. They could not have made it any clearer -- at least, not in a way that people couldn't still shift the goalposts.
QuoteAnd again, credits don't matter, nobody in the movie itself refers to it as a Xenomorph.
You keep bringing this up and it's the strangest argument to make.
They've
never been referred to as xenomorphs in the movies -- even in
Aliens,
the only film that uses the word, just used it to describe
an alien species, not
the Alien.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 01:00:10 AMThey've never been referred to as xenomorphs in the movies -- even in Aliens, the only film that uses the word, just used it to describe an alien species, not the Alien.
Wait.. didn't Ripley use the term in Alien 3 and 85 is like "How do you spell it?"
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 01:10:29 AMWait.. didn't Ripley use the term in Alien 3 and 85 is like "How do you spell it?"
Oh shoot you're right!
So the only movie with an Alien in it is
Alien3.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 01:10:29 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 01:00:10 AMThey've never been referred to as xenomorphs in the movies -- even in Aliens, the only film that uses the word, just used it to describe an alien species, not the Alien.
Wait.. didn't Ripley use the term in Alien 3 and 85 is like "How do you spell it?"
Yup... Aliens and Alien 3 both refer to it as a Xenomorph.
Aaron: "wait, what do you call it?"
Ripley: "a Xenomorph."
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 15, 2024, 01:16:55 AMYup... Aliens and Alien 3 both refer to it as a Xenomorph.
Aaron: "wait, what do you call it?"
Ripley: "a Xenomorph."
Gorman says "
a xenomorph may be involved." He isn't referring specifically to the Alien.
Only the SE of
Alien3 has that exchange, so there's only one alternate cut of one film where the Alien itself is explicitly referred to as a xenomorph. What about the other movies? Is it not an Alien in
Alien because it's not called one?
It's the dumbest argument.
I'm in the boat that it's merely a generic term used to label aliens in general, which is obvious in Aliens. Of course, I always watch the SE of Alien 3 which is why I remembered it so clearly.
Also, the use of the term in Alien 3 is just Ripley reusing the terminology that was used to her in the previous film to set off alarms in the heads of whoever at WY is on the other end of that computer. It isn't a literal species name, but in the moment it is the most efficient shorthand to get the point across as to what they are dealing with on Fiorina-161.
Always thought xenomorph meant any alien life form they can't communicate with.
Also I'd say David is lying in Covenant.
It was just Gorman using a needlessly complicated word for an alien or unknown thing. Ripley's use in Alien3 is the only time it's applied specifically to the Alien alien.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 15, 2024, 01:16:55 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 01:10:29 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 01:00:10 AMThey've never been referred to as xenomorphs in the movies -- even in Aliens, the only film that uses the word, just used it to describe an alien species, not the Alien.
Wait.. didn't Ripley use the term in Alien 3 and 85 is like "How do you spell it?"
Yup... Aliens and Alien 3 both refer to it as a Xenomorph.
Aaron: "wait, what do you call it?"
Ripley: "a Xenomorph."
And the scene in Alien 3 was cut.
The script for Covenant calls it a xenomorph. For what it's worth.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 01:15:25 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 01:10:29 AMWait.. didn't Ripley use the term in Alien 3 and 85 is like "How do you spell it?"
Oh shoot you're right!
So the only movie with an Alien in it is Alien3.
You're missing the point completely.
Ok, let's try this another way;
If I said "whether 10mm explosive tip careless light armour piercing rounds are effective at neutralising a Xenomorph is open to interpretation." I'd be completely and utterly wrong. We clearly see the effect of that ammunition being used on the creatures and having an explosive effect. That cannot be interpreted any other way.
Now if I said "whether flamethrowers/fire/extreme heat is effective at neutralising a Xenomorph is open to interpretation" that's a different story; we see Ripley ignite the engines of the Narcissus and blow one out into space. We DONT see any external damage whatsoever, just a creature being pushed away from the shuttle, even if the intention was that it was killed. In 'Aliens' Apone torches a chestburster with a flamethrower. The director clearly intended it to be fried/killed. But what we *see* is the creature screaming uncomfortably and still moving before camera cuts away and marines are distracted by shit hitting the fan... we don't see it actually die. Ripley flamethrowers the eggs..they are on fire but the only destroyed eggs we see comes from pulse rifle fire and throwing a strip of grenades. In fact, in all the alien movies, we've never seen an Alien torched by fire and dying once. Now I'm sure people could no doubt pull scripts and whatever else to say Apone killed the chestburster, Ripley destroyed the big chap with the narcissus engines etc, and that was what was intended. But we don't see it, and thus far, there's nothing to prevent it being interpreted that way.
That's the kind of difference I'm talking about with David creating the Xenomorph.
As I said in the previous thread, all we see in the movie is the step-by-step process of how he got to the final creature, HIS perfect organism, using the pathogen. A creature that has enough differences to question whether it is the same thing, or a VERY close recreation. The mural shows face-hugging creatures, and shows an ovomorph, even though the weapon itself doesn't create those things. Regardless how you interpret those pictures, they show something the weapon doesn't do, therefore, entirely possibly it's where the weapon is *from*) It's externally different from what we see in 'Alien' without any biomechanical aesthetics, the chestburster is translucent, with limbs (we have never seen one not be snake-like when birthed from a human host before) the gestation period differs from what was seen in Alien and Alien 3, in 'Alien' there is a hole in the Jockey that has clearly been there a VERY long time. There's enough doubt can be cast that it can be interpreted differently (as I just have- and probably a thousand other ways).
If we had gotten the third movie and seen David had continued experimenting on the Covenant and finally produced a big chap, that'd be more difficult. If we'd seen him find another ancient Juggernaut, fill it with ovomorphs created from the Covenant colonists, and a facehugger leaping onto an Engineer as it sits in the pilot chair, the helmet closing over it , and the ship hurtling towards LV-426, then sure, there'd be no room for interpretation... hell, if we'd just had a single line in Covenant that couldn't possible be taken any other way (pulling out of my ass; "Even your gods in all their technological wisdom couldn't possibly have imagined perfection of the likes I've created here. I have surpassed them in every way. Their creations were flawed. The universe has never seen an organism like this.." or some shit to that effect) just something definitive; I'd be like "yeah, ok, I don't like it, but it's really not open to interpretation."
Let's suppose for a second, I find a bioweapon, a pathogen that causes mutation in a science lab fridge. Unbeknownst to me, it originates from a particularly deadly (and entirely fictional) crab species that has 10 spikes on its carapace, 6 red spots and fur on its back legs. Now I'm messing with this highly volatile pathogen, playing genetic experimentation for years, and start producing crustacean-like creatures... I have a lab full of them showing my step by step of how I get to my ultimate design.
I use different arthropods to unlock genes, fill in the gaps etc, until eventually I get to a creature that is a crab with 8 spikes, 5 red spots, but no fur on the back legs. I rejoice at my magnificent creation, and how perfect it is, oblivious that, all but two spikes, a red spot and some missing bag leg fur, I've pretty much just recreated something that was already a thing; the dna in the pathogen was just that dominating. There's a few anatomical differences, but it's still really recognisable by anyone who has seen the original source that it's a crab.
Now apply that same line of thought to Covenant. Is there any reason, whatsoever, a Xenomorph can't have existed prior to the thing David made, taking into account all we know from other movies, or anything in the movie which explicitly says so? No. Just that an android creates what he thinks is perfection. We know all androids see the Xenomorph as perfection, based on Ash and Bishops response to it. They are machines, and that's their idea of a perfect organism. Of all the things the black goo could possibly create via genetic experimentation, does it not stand to reason David would be guiding it to what he considers perfection.. which just so happens to emulate something already out there, he'll, perhaps even itself a creation of the black goo from a like mind logical thinker like an Engineer/Jockey, using black goo sourced from the 'not-a-Xenomorph-but-similar' in the mural? If the Xenomorph truly is "perfection", then that's surely where evolution in the universe is headed, in the same way in real life on Earth, evolution keeps turning things into crabs (and they all aesthetically end up looking/ behaving the same despite originating from completely different sources)
Oh my GOD
Nothing about there being other Aliens elsewhere in existence is in Covenant. Nothing about David making an Alien instead of the Alien is in the movie.
Covenant says that David has made a new species and that new species is the Alien. That's all it says.
Saying it's suggestive or vague or ambiguous is wrong. The film is clear in what it is saying.
People choosing to interpret it differently is not a failure of the movie.
QuoteAs I said in the previous thread, all we see in the movie is the step-by-step process of how he got to the final creature, HIS perfect organism, using the pathogen. A creature that has enough differences to question whether it is the same thing, or a VERY close recreation.
The creatures in Aliens have lots of differences. Ditto Alien 3. Way more prominent ones, like the head and backtubes. Should they now be Cambomorphs and Finchomorphs?
QuoteThe mural shows face-hugging creatures, and shows an ovomorph, even though the weapon itself doesn't create those things.
The 'weapon' (I'm assuming the black goo) created a facehugging creature in Shaw and created those spore pods in Covenant.
QuoteIt's externally different from what we see in 'Alien' without any biomechanical aesthetics, the chestburster is translucent, with limbs (we have never seen one not be snake-like when birthed from a human host before)
No two chestbursters are the same.
Quotethe gestation period differs from what was seen in Alien and Alien 3,
It seems faster, but we don't know the gestation time in Covenant. We don't know the exact gestation time in Alien either and it varies in Resurrection. In Alien 3 the gestation time seems about on par with Alien, but growth time is way slower.
Quotein 'Alien' there is a hole in the Jockey that has clearly been there a VERY long time.
That's an assumption.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 15, 2024, 12:58:52 AMRidley Scott does not suck at story telling. Lmao
He does sometimes. Lol. He can be superb and crappy.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 03:11:25 AMNothing about there being other Aliens elsewhere in existence is in Covenant. Nothing about David making an Alien instead of the Alien is in the movie.
Covenant says that David has made a new species and that new species is the Alien. That's all it says.
Saying it's suggestive or vague or ambiguous is wrong. The film is clear in what it is saying.
People choosing to interpret it differently is not a failure of the movie.
I'm not sure if I'm just not getting it across correctly, or whether folk of opposing opinions are simply choosing not to understand, but to make it perfectly clear: I never said it's vague or ambiguous, and as I said prior, we all KNOW it's Ridley's Intention that David created the Xeno. I'm not debating that. Hell, im not even saying he *didnt* (not that I care for the idea at all).
I'm disputing seeing folk tell multiple forum members that what we see in the movie *cant* be interpreted any other way. It really isn't as ironclad as people are making it out. (That was what I was trying (and obviously failed) to convey with the pulse rifle vs flamethrower analogy; something that in no way shape or form could be interpreted any other way vs something that, due to enough contradicting factors (or lack of evidence) actually CAN be logically interpreted otherwise with what we're given (and have provided examples of such an interpretation).
The fact multiple people *did* interpret it differently, and happened upon the *same* reasoning, not only on these forums, but across the alien fandom on social media, including an acclaimed sci-fi writer who is responsible for 4 novelisations in the franchise who saw it the same way and saw enough wiggle room as to input an additional line of dialogue to make his thoughts clear, is clearly evidence that yes, it can.
Does that have any bearing on the movie as it stands? Nope. Does it leave it wide open for a really simple and easy method for both to work without a full retcon /de-canonisation of the movie? Sure.
Do *I* personally feel David created the species? Nope. Do I know the director wanted to tell me he did? Sure. Is there enough in the pre-established movies to contradict what we saw in covenant? Definitely. Can I interpret what we were given in the movie in a way that BOTH can work? ABSOLUTELY. Is there anything in the movie that would 100% contradict that or make it impossible? Nope. In fact I suspect at least one of the upcoming entries will go that route; Ridley is far too proud to produce something that considers and relegates ones of his entires in the same way he considered AvP.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 15, 2024, 03:38:24 AMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 15, 2024, 12:58:52 AMRidley Scott does not suck at story telling. Lmao
He does sometimes. Lol. He can be superb and crappy.
You only got an "Lmao" rather than "f**king period" when you got scolded. You got off lightly. ;D
QuoteThe fact multiple people *did* interpret it differently, and happened upon the *same* reasoning, not only on these forums, but across the alien fandom on social media, including an acclaimed sci-fi writer who is responsible for 4 novelisations in the franchise who saw it the same way and saw enough wiggle room as to input an additional line of dialogue to make his thoughts clear, is clearly evidence that yes, it can.
He didn't interpret it differently - he changed it.
This is also the guy who had his characters wondering "what a West Virginia is" and had to have the concept of a state explained - on a starship with US in its prefix. Just as an aside.
To be fair, I often wonder what West Virginia is too.
Well, in the interest of not derailing the thread from TV series discussion further, I shall, respectfully, agree to disagree ;D I really feel there's still genuine wiggle room in what we got to see it multiple ways (beyond copium) but I respect that I'm in the minority in that belief. 😅 Let's see what the future brings and how they tackle the issue. Despite it all, I still think I'd be quite sad to see Prometheus and Covenant get the AvP treatment - I love them as movies, even if they don't measure up to the original trilogy, and they deserve not to be completely erased from the canon; I'd sooner see a retroactive explanation.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 15, 2024, 04:02:21 AMWell, in the interest of not derailing the thread from TV series discussion further, I shall, respectfully, agree to disagree ;D I really feel there's still genuine wiggle room in what we got to see it multiple ways (beyond copium) but I respect that I'm in the minority in that belief. 😅 Let's see what the future brings and how they tackle the issue. Despite it all, I still think I'd be quite sad to see Prometheus and Covenant get the AvP treatment - I love them as movies, even if they don't measure up to the original trilogy, and they deserve not to be completely erased from the canon; I'd sooner see a retroactive explanation.
The film clearly saying what it says but there being some space to directly or by omission retcon it left in the meta of the thing isn't something that needed this many pages for everyone to dance around imo.
Yeah that was pretty much always the point. There is room to redo it all but that doesn't mean Covenant wasn't clear in what it was saying.
What if Ridley Scott contacted me and said he is making the 3rd prequel and wants me to tell him exactly how the story should go. And then 2 years go by and I get exactly what I dictated to him. Would I be a happy camper?
Umm... I think so? Or would I?
I mean, I'd be happy that the franchise would be course corrected to my preferences, but at the same time my appraisal of Scott as an artist and storyteller would drop to an all time low.
So what is it that I want? I want Scott to do as I say but I don't want to have to tell him what that is?
Does any of this sound rational?
TC
It will never not amuse me that SiL will fight to the death to defend something he clearly hates.
Bros, I'm past Scott's involvement in the franchise. I hope all this, "well we talked to him, and he agrees that it is totally fine with the changes we made here," is bs because all they are really using him for is to put his name on the title card to draw more viewers and THAT'S IT. He doesn't know what he wants with the franchise. When he does, he changes it through out the filmmaking process. It's fine if there is only ONE movie, but there isn't. I hate his constant meddling, his inability to stick with ANYTHING concerning the franchise, and how people think he's fostered some kind of masterpiece works within the franchise that isn't called Alien. One of them IS the best movie, but one is mediocre, and the other is a steaming pile of dogshit fanfiction.
Let him make his historical biopics, but keep him the f**k away from the Alien franchise. PLEASE. He's not nor has he ever been George Lucas who owned Star Wars until he sold out to Dibney. He's just a director who was responsible for one of the three good films in the franchise. People overrate his say on anything involved in the franchise when the only care the man gives it is whatever five second thought pops into his head at any one moment in time he's thinking about it/has been asked about it.
If Hawley takes NOTHING from Scott at this point I'd be fine. His constant involvement is one of the things that has killed my love for the series. Its just another constant referencing that goes on like them wanting to always have ripley, hadley's hope, lv-426, extended main and side character family introductions, repeating of old quotes rehash bullshit. "Well guys, we don't know where to go from here...........lets shake Scott's magic eight ball head and see what completely random and inane plot he can come with involving the series. Fans dig that shit."
MOVE ON. f**k HIM HAWLEY, YOU DO YOU.
INB4 producers be like, "Well we really liked Hawley's ideas, but about midway through production, SIR Ridley Scott came up with a completely different take on the subject matter, and we just loved it so much that we went a brand new and brave direction."
Enter incoherent burnt doodoo ass series.
Quote from: TC on Jan 15, 2024, 05:50:26 AMWhat if Ridley Scott contacted me and said he is making the 3rd prequel and wants me to tell him exactly how the story should go. And then 2 years go by and I get exactly what I dictated to him. Would I be a happy camper?
Umm... I think so? Or would I?
I mean, I'd be happy that the franchise would be course corrected to my preferences, but at the same time my appraisal of Scott as an artist and storyteller would drop to an all time low.
So how did your appraisal go when he added Aliens to
Covenant? He was quite clear he wanted to take Prometheus sequels away from the first movie and the Alien, and then made it quite clear he added the Alien because he thought people wanted it back.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 06:24:33 AMIt will never not amuse me that SiL will fight to the death to defend something he clearly hates.
Alien is dear to me but media literacy is dearer. Not everything exists for my convenience and enjoyment and, sure, I'll
gripe about it but I'm not going to argue it's something it's not just to comfort myself.
As happy as I am with the direction that Hawley is taking.. the overall series sounds like fanboi schlock, so my fingers are crossed that Alvarez's film will be much better.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 15, 2024, 06:55:07 AMAs happy as I am with the direction that Hawley is taking.. the overall series sounds like fanboi schlock, so my fingers are crossed that Alvarez's film will be much better.
Indeed. I get to be happy that the prequels are being shit on, but I also get to bask in the pessimism about Boy Kavalier and Tootles. It's a win-win.
Sigh With Alien, I don't think there should've been prequels. Like, if they wanted to explore Alien or Space Jockey origins, should've been done in a sequel format so it wouldn't mess with the timeframe, etc.
Ironically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
They were still pretty much shit and appealed mainly to the lowest denomination of soda-drinkers, but they didn't leave me feeling like the franchise was any worse off than the state AR left it in.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
They were still pretty much shit and appealed mainly to the lowest denomination of soda-drinkers, but they didn't leave me feeling like the franchise was any worse off than the state AR left it in.
Indeed. Those films don't leave me frustrated.
My fever dream is simply Aliens vs Predator vs Terminator vs Robocop vs TMNT. Can we have that instead!?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:01:39 AMIndeed. I get to be happy that the prequels are being shit on, but I also get to bask in the pessimism about Boy Kavalier and Tootles. It's a win-win.
f**king tootles.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
You will be cast out for such heresy!
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 15, 2024, 09:10:11 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
You will be cast out for such heresy!
The real heresy is fundamentally changing our individual views on the Space Jockeys. Bring me my space elephant.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
They were still pretty much shit and appealed mainly to the lowest denomination of soda-drinkers, but they didn't leave me feeling like the franchise was any worse off than the state AR left it in.
I feel the same actually, well not with AVPR lol.
But the first movie didn't leave such a bad taste as Alien Covenent or Prometheus did. Funny because the latters are better made movies. I can't really explain it but AVP (super fast life-cycle aside) didn't mess with lore nearly as much as the prequels did. And correct me if I am wrong but character stupidity was fairly minimum too. I think only one character wandered off.
In another irony however. Scott seemed to have took some stuff from AVP into his prequels. Such as the fast life-cycle that he actually made worse.
A facehugger is only on a guy for a few seconds, didn't even have its ovipositor in his mouth either (because you can hear him shout "get it off me") and it still impregnated him. :laugh:
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 15, 2024, 09:10:11 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
You will be cast out for such heresy!
Despite my agreement just now, you're right. Let us arrest him and throw him in the blasphemy jail and then the apology jail....and for good measure, give him an enema. ;D
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 15, 2024, 10:36:52 AMIn another irony however. Scott seemed to have took some stuff from AVP into his prequels. Such as the fast life-cycle that he actually made worse.
A facehugger is only on a guy for a few seconds, didn't even have its ovipositor in his mouth either (because you can hear him shout "get it off me") and it still impregnated him. :laugh:
I think that's because David improved upon the original facehugger. Same with the adult Praetomorph being stronger and more resistant to fire than a typical Xeno.
At the cost of intelligence if I remember reading the bio correctly. They were purely animalistic and would attack any living thing that crossed their path, other Aliens too.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 15, 2024, 10:45:06 AMAt the cost of intelligence if I remember reading the bio correctly. They were purely animalistic and would attack any living thing that crossed their path, other Aliens too.
That's the tradeoff.
I remember during the early 80's reading a science fiction movie magazine (Starlog maybe) an interview with Giger or someone involved with the story, they said the Jockeys came from a world where technology is grown... If they need a ship, they grow one, a house, a computer, ect... and that's why the Jockey looked like he was a part of the ship, because he was. The entire ship was a living entity at once and the jockey grew with it and only served that one function, to pilot it. That's why the ship looked like it had bones. I always liked that concept.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 07:17:08 AMIronically, I had fewer issues with the AvP flicks as prequels than I did with Ridley's.
[Dislike]
Prometheus was average, ,comics AvP, AvP Duel good movie AvP, AvP R and Alien Covenant was weak.
Disney Fox Aliens, Yautja / Predators, Mala'kaks / Space Jockeys, Marines, Weyland Yutani ... after Disney Marvel M-she-U ;D
I'm ok with them making the alien really old but if they try to completely retcon the prequels or act like they never happened then this will automatically be shit for me lol. I don't want to see movies or shows completely retconning another one. Hence a reason why I'm completely happy Alien 5 never happened because that felt like a slap to the face to fans
Quote from: Mr. J on Jan 15, 2024, 12:53:01 PMPrometheus was average, ,comics AvP, AvP Duel good movie AvP, AvP R and Alien Covenant was weak.
Disney Fox Aliens, Yautja / Predators, Mala'kaks / Space Jockeys, Marines, Weyland Yutani ... after Disney Marvel M-she-U ;D
...what.
Quote from: MaineXeno on Jan 15, 2024, 04:29:23 PMI'm ok with them making the alien really old but if they try to completely retcon the prequels or act like they never happened then this will automatically be shit for me lol. I don't want to see movies or shows completely retconning another one. Hence a reason why I'm completely happy Alien 5 never happened because that felt like a slap to the face to fans
Ridley did this to AVP though. Alien 3 did it the comic continuation of Aliens.
The prequels themselves are a retcon.
Quote from: MaineXeno on Jan 15, 2024, 04:29:23 PMI'm ok with them making the alien really old but if they try to completely retcon the prequels or act like they never happened then this will automatically be shit for me lol. I don't want to see movies or shows completely retconning another one. Hence a reason why I'm completely happy Alien 5 never happened because that felt like a slap to the face to fans
I'm with you. The show already looks doubtful but if it will erase the prequels it will be cesspool rated garbage.
As I said before: the best decision is acting like Godzilla/007 franchises with individual stories/arcs. But this should be established officially, not retroactively.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 15, 2024, 04:45:30 PMQuote from: MaineXeno on Jan 15, 2024, 04:29:23 PMI'm ok with them making the alien really old but if they try to completely retcon the prequels or act like they never happened then this will automatically be shit for me lol. I don't want to see movies or shows completely retconning another one. Hence a reason why I'm completely happy Alien 5 never happened because that felt like a slap to the face to fans
Ridley did this to AVP though. Alien 3 did it the comic continuation of Aliens.
The prequels themselves are a retcon.
That's not even on the same level. Avp was not and should not have ever been canon to either the predator or alien franchise. Alien 3 did not ruin continuity because the comics were not canon either. Even as I kid I always understood that the comics and stuff were not 100% official with the movies. They are just fun stories set in the universe. And yes Prometheus and covenant did mess with stuff but they are easy things to change without completely retconning either movie
My point was that continuity has in the past been retconned, both canon and non-canon. Some of which have changed canon status. For example, the shadow and rage trilogy, along with the fire and stone series were canon, but that got reset and retconned/contradicted.
AVP's canonicity has been mixed depending on whether its fans or filmakers. When it came to Prometheus, someone on the crew mentioned AVP's continuity to Ridley Scott, ergo it was considered canon by some folks in the industry. In said "pointing out" of AVP continuity, Scott went out of his way to contradict. I think it was stated that he gave a pointed look or something at the person who brought it up.
"Alien vs. Predator vs. Prometheus: The prequel film was of course tethered to the original Scott film, but what about the relationship between it and AVP? Lindelof explained: "[Ridley] wanted to use Weyland as a conduit in the story, and was not at all interested when I said, 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien vs. Predator movies.' He just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle, and end of all Alien vs. Predator references in our story process." Peter Weyland indeed usurped Charles Bishop Weyland and removed him, and by extension AVP, from the continuity.
Lindelof on Ridley and the Alien series: "He hasn't seen the Alien vs. Predator films. He likes Cameron's sequel but he admits to feeling a little conflicted that he was passed over in terms of directing the sequel. He's a huge Fincher fan and feels sorry that David was so hamstrung in terms of what he could and could not do in terms of Alien 3, and while he acknowledges that it's a beautiful looking film I think he wishes that Fincher would have been allowed to do what Fincher does on that film. I have a feeling that if Alien 3 had been Fincher's third film instead of his first then it would have been up there in the pantheon of great sci-fi. We didn't talk about Resurrection."
Noah said that Legion was in the X-MEN cinema universe and then he changed and said that Legion was a reboot.
The same could happen now. He thinks that maybe the prequels would be left out of canon or not but Scott will leave his series out of canon if he angers him.
In the end the series will be a reboot like Legion or chronologically they will say in a few months that it comes after Covenant becose have Alien clasic.
Scott will never let his prequels be out of canon.
Noah will reinvent Alien, his series will be controversial. He can't boast of saving the canon since fans hate his approach to Alien BEFORE watching the series and may hate his decisions like Scott's with Prometheus/Covenant.
I like Noah and want reinvent but in this universe with all movies under. Noah f**k prequels and canon?. Ok his show Reboot 100% . Not Covenant out universe with Scott like productor.
First episode post-credits scene, Hawley gives Ridley Scott a swirlie in a toilet and then shouts, "David didn't create SHIT," before walking away in disgust. He locks eyes with the camera and says, "Canon."
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 15, 2024, 06:50:47 PMFirst episode post-credits scene, Hawley gives Ridley Scott a swirlie in a toilet and then shouts, "David didn't create SHIT," before walking away in disgust. He locks eyes with the camera and says, "Canon."
You've actually seen it, haven't you?
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 15, 2024, 07:13:16 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 15, 2024, 06:50:47 PMFirst episode post-credits scene, Hawley gives Ridley Scott a swirlie in a toilet and then shouts, "David didn't create SHIT," before walking away in disgust. He locks eyes with the camera and says, "Canon."
You've actually seen it, haven't you?
It's glorious.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 15, 2024, 07:19:09 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 15, 2024, 07:13:16 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 15, 2024, 06:50:47 PMFirst episode post-credits scene, Hawley gives Ridley Scott a swirlie in a toilet and then shouts, "David didn't create SHIT," before walking away in disgust. He locks eyes with the camera and says, "Canon."
You've actually seen it, haven't you?
It's glorious.
"puts gun to his head" Talk! :laugh:
So it just occurred to me that with this statement in this post that both the new film and this tv series are riffing on the ourschool is new school appoach that Alien Isolation played off of. Esthetically I hope it works out in the end for both projects because no other film had done this.
I'm with SM thinking this is a maybe pandering cause it's been garnering some bad vibes cause of the leaked info.
On the one hand, I like his thoughts here. Aliens are ancient, they evolved naturally eons ago, retro grounded tech as much as possible. But on the other hand, it's so annoying to keep going back and forth with the intentions. Ridley retconned a lot of old media with his prequels. Than the expanded media tried to soft retcon it a little saying that at least David didn't make them, embracing the fan theory that he just recreated them from the Engineers, but maybe there is an older more cosmic horror type Alien from which the Engineers created their own. All implied. Now Noah goes and says that he likes them super old and natural, getting us back to where we started!
It's kinda funny, kinda exhausting. Noah has some ideas that a lot of the fans here like, but then why does he insist on making it a (timewise, not story related) prequel to even the prequels? Why on Earth? Why consciousness uploading so early on in the timeline when nothing even close has been seen as far as A:R?
I mean, if it's really, really well done, we'll embrace the new lore. But some of the stuff is baffling and unnecessary so I think that there'll need to be a lot of heavy lifting to compensate for things that sound bad on paper.
Honestly, really wasn't expecting him to say this. Really don't know what we'll get. I'm not expecting much, but getting a show and movie so close together, in 2 years both, will be quite the experience.
I don't think the tech has to be retro/cassette-future though, Alien and Aliens technology appearance was due to the era in which the films were made.
While the modern use of retrotech worked in Alien Isolation (a game that focused on the feel and aesthetics of the first film) The only areas you get to explore are old such as the ship you arrive in (which is the same class as the Nostromo) and the station. So it may have a in-unverse justification. Not sure how it would work in the series.
My own head-canon here is that either retro-tech became a fad at some point in the alien timeline or it was simply recycled technology that was cheaper to use on big rig ships. Perhaps more safer, reliable and power conservative than say holograms and things with big LED lights.
QuoteWhy consciousness uploading so early on in the timeline when nothing even close has been seen as far as A:R?
I haven't read anything about consciousness uploading, but it doesn't seem terribly different from recording dreams, which can be played back like they did for Prometheus.
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jan 15, 2024, 09:32:47 PMI'm with SM thinking this is a maybe pandering cause it's been garnering some bad vibes cause of the leaked info.
If it's pandering then I am very much in favor of it, bring on those retcons. Ridley's ideas were stupid, walk that shit back like you're Michael Jackson doing the moonwalk.
There's nothing wrong with walking bad ideas back. It isn't somehow "brave" to stick to shitty ideas and double-down and not course-correct.
Scott already backtracked reintroducing the Alien.
And if...
Noah says that because Scott wanted to include Alien Covenant origins in the series and he told him no, that he would ignore them.
Hoah doesn't want to break canon, he doesn't want to leave out Covenant.
I'm only talking to scott as a fan and it's been misinterpreted out of context.
The context is that he spoke with Scott about the origin and we don't know if Scott wanted to introduce Covenant origin and that is why he says publicly that he ignores them. But not that the prequels were from the canon but from their plot.
It makes more sense. Noah would never say that the prequels are out of canon after talking to Scott. It's not realistic.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 10:24:17 PMScott already backtracked reintroducing the Alien.
What do you mean?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 15, 2024, 03:56:48 AMTo be fair, I often wonder what West Virginia is too.
I feel attacked. I'm reporting you to the Mothman.
Briefly skimmed this thread because I was curious to see what everyone was saying in regards to the conflicting continuity and lore between the Prometheus and Covenant films, and this upcoming TV series.
Honestly?
There could be two different continuities. You have the Cinematic continuity, and you have the Series continuity. None of the two being the "Prime" canon as it's up to fans which ones they want to choose.
There's been MANY TV series which spawned off as movies, and even have the movies as the base to their canon. Highlander the Series is one that comes off the top of my head, which accounts the original Highlander as it's primary inspiration for it's continuity but largely discounts Highlander II (for good reason), doesn't seem to connect with Highlander III, but is connected with Endgame...
And then you have the cinematic Highlander continuity which pretty much goes Highlander and then Highlander III. Highlander II is ignored completely, be it theatrical cut or Renegade cut.
Why can't the same happen here for ALIEN?
Canon be damned.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 16, 2024, 03:04:25 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 15, 2024, 10:24:17 PMScott already backtracked reintroducing the Alien.
What do you mean?
He didn't want the prequels to have Aliens in it. He was saying he wanted to go away from the original films and just explore the engineers, that the derelict was already on LV-426, stuff like that.
Putting an Alien in the sequel was done because he was told people complained about there not being Aliens in the previous movie.
So I can absolutely see him backtracking David if he thought it was deeply unpopular.
People be complaining about retconning and I'm sitting here thinking, well that's a pretty normal thing for just about every other franchise out there.
I like this.
It also doesn't necessarily retcon Covenant if you just approach that films story with the assumption that David is an unreliable narrator.
The tech part, well, the prequels retconned that first. This is just a visual choice, and I think the show will largely benefit from it. There can be all sorts of canonical reasons for the inconsistency, but I don't think it's something to get hung up on with this franchise's historical lack of consistency.
Quote from: carnotaurus1350 on Jan 16, 2024, 07:35:02 AMI like this.
It also doesn't necessarily retcon Covenant if you just approach that films story with the assumption that David is an unreliable narrator.
The tech part, well, the prequels retconned that first. This is just a visual choice, and I think the show will largely benefit from it. There can be all sorts of canonical reasons for the inconsistency, but I don't think it's something to get hung up on with this franchise's historical lack of consistency.
Just for clarification's sake.. what historical lack of consistency?
Quote from: carnotaurus1350 on Jan 16, 2024, 07:35:02 AMI like this.
It also doesn't necessarily retcon Covenant if you just approach that films story with the assumption that David is an unreliable narrator.
The tech part, well, the prequels retconned that first. This is just a visual choice, and I think the show will largely benefit from it. There can be all sorts of canonical reasons for the inconsistency, but I don't think it's something to get hung up on with this franchise's historical lack of consistency.
In case anyone is wondering, the RPG states that technology went backwards as time went on; holographics and other such technology were considered too expensive and difficult to maintain on the Frontier. Even atmospheric processing technology was downgraded to be more financially viable; the processor seen in
Aliens is a far cry from the original Weyland model.
There's a reason that the Weyland era is known as the golden era of colonization.
Quote from: TC on Jan 14, 2024, 02:58:37 AMMy biggest surprise is that Ridley Scott is producing an 'alternative timeline' story that ignores his prequels.
If Scott, the man himself, sees value in Hawley's story then that, to me, is a powerful endorsement.
TC
Ridley's a business man, has been for a while. Continuity in story telling be damned.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 16, 2024, 10:05:01 AMRidley's a business man, has been for a while. Continuity in story telling be damned.
He'd just tell us to get lives, anyway.
Not the worst advice for people this involved in the minutiae of what is and isn't corporately branded as official.
The technology looks more advanced in the prequels because they were made over 30 years after the original movie. Alien was not retrofuturism. In 1979 it was plain futurism.
Hawley (and apparently Alvarez) going back to Alien style tech is an artistic choice. Nothing more. There is no more need to try to explain the discrepancy than trying to explain why the Sulaco cryotubes were different in Alien 3.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 16, 2024, 03:57:30 AMPeople be complaining about retconning and I'm sitting here thinking, well that's a pretty normal thing for just about every other franchise out there.
True enough, it does happen a lot, and we are not the owners so we don't get a say really. But we are consumers and we are entitled to be able to enjoy what we consume.
For me, there was nothing to enjoy seeing the lore and continuity be crapped on by the prequels.
To me, ignoring or retconning the prequels isn't so much retconning but course correcting. ;D
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jan 16, 2024, 11:46:10 AMThe technology looks more advanced in the prequels because they were made over 30 years after the original movie. Alien was not retrofuturism. In 1979 it was plain futurism.
Hawley (and apparently Alvarez) going back to Alien style tech is an artistic choice. Nothing more. There is no more need to try to explain the discrepancy than trying to explain why the Sulaco cryotubes were different in Alien 3.
For me, the cryotube (and general Sulaco) discrepancy in A3 can be read as the result of a different visual style, like a continuing comic book series being drawn by different artists.
It is a little bit grating, though, considering that the Narcissus was copied so perfectly for
Aliens.
Plus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 16, 2024, 11:50:54 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 16, 2024, 03:57:30 AMPeople be complaining about retconning and I'm sitting here thinking, well that's a pretty normal thing for just about every other franchise out there.
True enough, it does happen a lot, and we are not the owners so we don't get a say really. But we are consumers and we are entitled to be able to enjoy what we consume.
For me, there was nothing to enjoy seeing the lore and continuity be crapped on by the prequels.
To me, ignoring or retconning the prequels isn't so much retconning but course correcting. ;D
Story choices definitely affect everyone that watches, reads or hears it. It's cool if someone likes the David creator story. I don't in relation to the series. Now if we didn't have the other films and Prometheus and Covenant was where it started, I think it's actually really good. I just have 35ish years of understanding the Alien to be something older and mysterious.
Retconning isn't the worst thing, but it's also not the best. It has to be done right and for good reason. It's like subversion in a film. Why are you subverting, and is it built off of good writing. Anyone can throw a hook out of nowhere. How does that hook land?
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 16, 2024, 11:50:54 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 16, 2024, 03:57:30 AMPeople be complaining about retconning and I'm sitting here thinking, well that's a pretty normal thing for just about every other franchise out there.
True enough, it does happen a lot, and we are not the owners so we don't get a say really. But we are consumers and we are entitled to be able to enjoy what we consume.
For me, there was nothing to enjoy seeing the lore and continuity be crapped on by the prequels.
To me, ignoring or retconning the prequels isn't so much retconning but course correcting. ;D
So here's how I typically view retcons and changes. In general, I'm fine with small changes, small retcons. I'm willing to bet that a lot of fans and I are able to tolerate small changes to stuff. All that's fine. In the prequels, in very much the same way when they added a lost simaril in Rings of Power, or in Star Wars, where it's a bit more nuanced but still noticeable for me where they retcon a lot of the original trilogy and stuff, introducing the Engineers and intending David to be the creator of the Aliens, those were pretty big changes imo.
As fans in general, we can tolerate small changes but when it comes to these big retcons, I find that it can be very disruptive.
Like what if they added a new side to the Force in a random episode of the Mandalorian next to the Light and Dark Sides?
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 16, 2024, 12:00:12 PMQuote from: Kane's other son on Jan 16, 2024, 11:46:10 AMThe technology looks more advanced in the prequels because they were made over 30 years after the original movie. Alien was not retrofuturism. In 1979 it was plain futurism.
Hawley (and apparently Alvarez) going back to Alien style tech is an artistic choice. Nothing more. There is no more need to try to explain the discrepancy than trying to explain why the Sulaco cryotubes were different in Alien 3.
For me, the cryotube (and general Sulaco) discrepancy in A3 can be read as the result of a different visual style, like a continuing comic book series being drawn by different artists.
It is a little bit grating, though, considering that the Narcissus was copied so perfectly for Aliens.
Plus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
But they absolutely did, the fascism brought rot, the golden age of the Republic truly dead by the time that Luke Skywalker becomes a young man.
even with the retcon - David is still a great character.
and i guess the 3rd prequel - if done now - would be about David realizing that he's been doing ripoffs, realizing the original alien is far older and kind of losing his mind even more about it.
That character is all ego. This would be a gigantic blow to him.
I'd like to see it in a proper film.
I want to see David get ripped in half by an ancient version of his own "creation" as he realizes he never created anything.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 16, 2024, 03:30:00 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 16, 2024, 12:00:12 PMQuote from: Kane's other son on Jan 16, 2024, 11:46:10 AMThe technology looks more advanced in the prequels because they were made over 30 years after the original movie. Alien was not retrofuturism. In 1979 it was plain futurism.
Hawley (and apparently Alvarez) going back to Alien style tech is an artistic choice. Nothing more. There is no more need to try to explain the discrepancy than trying to explain why the Sulaco cryotubes were different in Alien 3.
For me, the cryotube (and general Sulaco) discrepancy in A3 can be read as the result of a different visual style, like a continuing comic book series being drawn by different artists.
It is a little bit grating, though, considering that the Narcissus was copied so perfectly for Aliens.
Plus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
But they absolutely did, the fascism brought rot, the golden age of the Republic truly dead by the time that Luke Skywalker becomes a young man.
*inserts Brett "Right."
They rebels were also depicted as having cobbled together whatever resources they could, including aging fighters and vessels. Another reason to explain why they didn't look as shiny as the Grand Army of the Republic. It retroactively fits the design of the Empire in the new trilogy. The Republic was bright and full of hope on the outside. The Empire is drab, and lacking anything but power and procedure. It's actually a great contrast, retroactively.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 16, 2024, 03:30:00 PMBut they absolutely did, the fascism brought rot, the golden age of the Republic truly dead by the time that Luke Skywalker becomes a young man.
It's not stated as elegantly as it is in
Alien. Plus, later SW comics and games showed prequel-era technology showing up in the time of the Rebellion - Cato Neimoidia in The Force Unleashed II, for example. The technology deficit in
Alien seems to be more standardized.
Quote from: skhellter on Jan 16, 2024, 04:41:51 PMeven with the retcon - David is still a great character.
and i guess the 3rd prequel - if done now - would be about David realizing that he's been doing ripoffs, realizing the original alien is far older and kind of losing his mind even more about it.
That character is all ego. This would be a gigantic blow to him.
I'd like to see it in a proper film.
This is exactly what I'd hope for.
Quote from: skhellter on Jan 16, 2024, 04:41:51 PMeven with the retcon - David is still a great character.
and i guess the 3rd prequel - if done now - would be about David realizing that he's been doing ripoffs, realizing the original alien is far older and kind of losing his mind even more about it.
That character is all ego. This would be a gigantic blow to him.
I'd like to see it in a proper film.
Could definitely be an interesting/topical spin right now, too, in the current era of AI-generated "art" directly plagiarizing from pre-existing works.
QuotePlus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
There was no need to explain technology "going backwards" in Alien. Particularly when ships got faster, hypersleep was simpler and automated lifeboats became a thing.
What explanation did Star Wars need?
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 08:34:22 PMQuotePlus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
There was no need to explain technology "going backwards" in Alien. Particularly when ships got faster, hypersleep was simpler and automated lifeboats became a thing.
Building Better Worlds outright tells us that technological standards were much more advanced during the classical Weyland era, i.e. the late 21st-early 22nd century, than they were in 2179. A typical Weyland atmosphere processor could clean up an atmosphere in under a decade, compared to the contemporary W-Y models that took decades to do a substandard job.
The latter point is even necessary for the plot of
Aliens, along with the fact that the latter-day processors would break down if anyone sneezed near one.
I would love to see/hear that discussion between Noah and Ridley regarding Prometheus/Covenant. Hopefully they will make some press tour together.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 16, 2024, 09:12:48 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 08:34:22 PMQuotePlus, I do like the RPG's explanation for the differing technological standards. I don't recall Star Wars getting the same rationale.
There was no need to explain technology "going backwards" in Alien. Particularly when ships got faster, hypersleep was simpler and automated lifeboats became a thing.
Building Better Worlds outright tells us that technological standards were much more advanced during the classical Weyland era, i.e. the late 21st-early 22nd century, than they were in 2179. A typical Weyland atmosphere processor could clean up an atmosphere in under a decade, compared to the contemporary W-Y models that took decades to do a substandard job.
But that's unnecessary. The source material didn't show different standards of terraforming, so some difference in quality needed explaining.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PM"For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. e's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
Is xeno, according to
Alien (1979) the product of millions of years of evolution? It always had been an assumption.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 16, 2024, 09:12:48 PMA typical Weyland atmosphere processor could clean up an atmosphere in under a decade, compared to the contemporary W-Y models that took decades to do a substandard job.
Based on what?
Reasons.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:23:25 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PM"For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. e's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
Is xeno, according to Alien (1979) the product of millions of years of evolution? It always had been an assumption.
It was not described as such in the first film.
O'Bannon intended that. He also intended Aliens live for centuries and become all wise and scholarly after they overcome their adolescent bloodlust. Ridley went the other way and intended it to live for 24 hours with an overwhelming need to reproduce.
However, Hawley is actually referring to the 'perfect life form' (sic) which is how Ash described it. So "perfect" it can't reproduce on its own.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:22:16 PMBut that's unnecessary. The source material didn't show different standards of terraforming, so some difference in quality needed explaining.
Actually, there is if you look carefully. In
Covenant, Origae-6 is an Earth-like planet that has been scouted because it's Earth-like, with a minimum of actual terraforming being required. Of course, when Planet 4 is discovered, the crew of the titular ship decides to take a look at it because it's even more potentially welcoming.
This is because the original Weyland processors were considered too expensive for widespread colonization of inhospitable worlds. As W-Y later revisited old Weyland concepts, they decided to produce cut-rate, lower-tech versions, thereby leading to the technology seen in
Alien onward.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
Tell that to
@Corporal Hicks who thinks it's "deliberately ambiguous" :)
11:10
That sounds like what the young people call "cope".
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 16, 2024, 09:29:23 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:22:16 PMBut that's unnecessary. The source material didn't show different standards of terraforming, so some difference in quality needed explaining.
Actually, there is if you look carefully. In Covenant, Origae-6 is an Earth-like planet that has been scouted because it's Earth-like, with a minimum of actual terraforming being required. Of course, when Planet 4 is discovered, the crew of the titular ship decides to take a look at it because it's even more potentially welcoming.
This is because the original Weyland processors were considered too expensive for widespread colonization of inhospitable worlds. As W-Y later revisited old Weyland concepts, they decided to produce cut-rate, lower-tech versions, thereby leading to the technology seen in Alien onward.
Where did any of that rate a mention? Certainly wasn't in the film.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 16, 2024, 09:24:40 PMBased on what?
Building Better Worlds.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:32:28 PMWhere did any of that rate a mention? Certainly wasn't in the film.
The RPG book.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:29:13 PMReasons.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:23:25 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PM"For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. e's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
Is xeno, according to Alien (1979) the product of millions of years of evolution? It always had been an assumption.
It was not described as such in the first film.
Exactly. So
technically speaking derelict could have crashed in the recent past. It didn't have to be there for thousands of years or even longer.
This is correct. People get hung up on a spaceship pilot saying something looks fossilised and taking it as gospel.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:29:13 PMIt was not described as such in the first film.
O'Bannon intended that. He also intended Aliens live for centuries and become all wise and scholarly after they overcome their adolescent bloodlust. Ridley went the other way and intended it to live for 24 hours with an overwhelming need to reproduce.
The RPG characterizes the Praetomorph as having an overwhelming need to kill. Sure, it has the ability to capture prey and eggmorph them, but its most prominent trait is feral rage.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:37:26 PMThis is correct. People get hung up on a spaceship pilot saying something looks fossilised and taking it as gospel.
It comes down to so-called cosmic horror stigma which Alien's got. For better or worse.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:30:47 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
Tell that to @Corporal Hicks who thinks it's "deliberately ambiguous" :)
11:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl5LV_degt4
Ok
@Corporal Hicks you're deluding yourself.
Funnily enough, the Covenant novelization is completely unambiguous in stating that the Xenomorph was created by the Engineers; it's described as "the pinnacle of Engineer bioweapon design".
Because Alan Dean Foster changed it; not because it was from the movie.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 10:04:03 PMBecause Alan Dean Foster changed it; not because it was from the movie.
Not saying it was. I was just pointing it out.
What source canonized/decanonized Colonial Marines? I"m fuzzy on the details, but f**k it. If David made the Alien, then Hicks can live and we can all pray to avenge Turk. haha.
Randy canonised it.
Everyone else just ignored it.
ACM was ignored when The Weyland-Yutani Report was being written (not long after it came out).
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:35:59 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:29:13 PMReasons.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:23:25 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PM"For me, and for a lot of people, this 'perfect life form' — as it was described in the first film — is the product of millions of years of evolution that created this creature that may have existed for a million years out there in space. e's no holograms. The convenience of that beautiful Apple store technology is not available to me."
Is xeno, according to Alien (1979) the product of millions of years of evolution? It always had been an assumption.
It was not described as such in the first film.
Exactly. So technically speaking derelict could have crashed in the recent past. It didn't have to be there for thousands of years or even longer.
It was the intent of the film that the Derelict be ancient. Dallas doesn't need to be an archaeologist to convey that intent.
Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2024, 09:37:26 PMThis is correct. People get hung up on a spaceship pilot saying something looks fossilised and taking it as gospel.
Saying the Derelict is not ancient is a retcon, full stop. No need to go into revisionist history and say "ohhhh Dallas never knew what he was talking about, it was never meant to be ancient." Within the text of the film 'Alien', the Derelict is ancient - that's the point of the Jockey looking old and Dallas spelling it out by saying "it looks fossilized" in dialogue - it's writing shorthand to convey to the audience what conclusion they should be drawing.
Prometheus and Covenant retconned 'Alien', and they themselves can be retconned again.
It may have been the intent back then but the newer films changed that.
As for the fossilized comment Dallas makes, he is incorrect because I think something can only be fossilized is if its beneath the earth. Its more like dessicated or something. Which doesn't actually take that long to happen.
But then he is just a blue collar captain of an old rig of a ship. A giant alien corpse is out of his expertise and he was just making a laymen's observation.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 12:36:31 AMIt may have been the intent back then but the newer films changed that.
As for the fossilized comment Dallas makes, he is incorrect because I think something can only be fossilized is if its beneath the earth. Its more like dessicated or something. Which doesn't actually take that long to happen.
But then he is just a blue collar captain of an old rig of a ship. A giant alien corpse is out of his expertise and he was just making a laymen's observation.
Later stories cannot change the intent of an earlier story; that intent is set in stone when it comes out.
Later stories can recontextualize what the earlier story shows us (that's what a retcon is), but that does not change its original intent. The intent of 'Alien' absolutely was that the Derelict and its contents were ancient, and Dallas uses narrative shorthand to convey that even if the precise words he's using aren't scientifically accurate. He's using a term the audience will understand to convey "this is old". Just because he didn't use the precisely correct scientific terminology doesn't mean the intent wasn't "the audience is meant to conclude this is old". Up until Alien Covenant came out, no one thought the Derelict might not be ancient.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 17, 2024, 01:28:21 AMLater stories cannot change the intent of an earlier story; that intent is set in stone when it comes out.
Later stories can recontextualize what the earlier story shows us (that's what a retcon is), but that does not change its original intent. The intent of 'Alien' absolutely was that the Derelict and its contents were ancient, and Dallas uses narrative shorthand to convey that even if the precise words he's using aren't scientifically accurate. He's using a term the audience will understand to convey "this is old". Just because he didn't use the precisely correct scientific terminology doesn't mean the intent wasn't "the audience is meant to conclude this is old". Up until Alien Covenant came out, no one thought the Derelict might not be ancient.
Intentions can change, and what ever it was before does not matter to current intent.
Scott changed his intent and for good or bad, newer stories do overwrite old ones (unless otherwise stated or a sequel-reboot is made such as Dark fate not counting T3, TS, TG as ever happened) that is why is it called
retroactive continuity and not futureactive continuity.
It does not matter what the intent was in the original because scott changed his mind and made intent clear in the prequels. The intentions behind the first movie no longer exist in the current franchise. If you have any respect for the director's intent as you seem to bring up his old intention, then you need to acknowledge what his intent was for Coventnent. It sucked for sure but the director made it clear.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:42:47 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 17, 2024, 01:28:21 AMLater stories cannot change the intent of an earlier story; that intent is set in stone when it comes out.
Later stories can recontextualize what the earlier story shows us (that's what a retcon is), but that does not change its original intent. The intent of 'Alien' absolutely was that the Derelict and its contents were ancient, and Dallas uses narrative shorthand to convey that even if the precise words he's using aren't scientifically accurate. He's using a term the audience will understand to convey "this is old". Just because he didn't use the precisely correct scientific terminology doesn't mean the intent wasn't "the audience is meant to conclude this is old". Up until Alien Covenant came out, no one thought the Derelict might not be ancient.
Intentions can change, and what ever it was before does not matter to current intent.
Scott changed his intent and for good or bad, newer stories do overwrite old ones (unless otherwise stated or a sequel-reboot is made such as Dark fate not counting T3, TS, TG as ever happened) that is why is it called retroactive continuity and not futureactive continuity.
It does not matter what the intent was in the original because scott changed his mind and made intent clear in the prequels. The intentions behind the first movie no longer exist in the current franchise. If you have any respect for the director's intent as you seem to bring up his old intention, then you need to acknowledge what his intent was for Coventnent. It sucked for sure but the director made it clear.
The intent for 'Alien' and the intent for 'Covenant' are two different things that exist at different points in time, and I don't think one has to override the other. That's the point. Covenant produced a retcon, but pretending that the Derelict was never meant to be old is bizarre revisionist history.
@XenomrphNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:59:25 AMNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
I want ancient elephant man! >:(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 17, 2024, 02:06:52 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:59:25 AMNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
I want ancient elephant man! >:(
Everyone knows it was originally supposed to be old. The key word is "supposed to be". Alright three key words.
The film doesn't definitively state this though, which allowed Ridley to change it. If Ash had stabbed one of them dating devices they have in Prometheus and said 'This dude has been dead for thousands of years. And he has elephant DNA' then David creating the Aliens would be an obvious contradiction.
Nothing like that happened though.
Quote from: SM on Jan 17, 2024, 02:12:22 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 17, 2024, 02:06:52 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:59:25 AMNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
I want ancient elephant man! >:(
Everyone knows it was originally supposed to be old. The key word is "supposed to be". Alright three key words.
The film doesn't definitively state this though, which allowed Ridley to change it. If Ash had stabbed one of them dating devices they have in Prometheus and said 'This dude has been dead for thousands of years. And he has elephant DNA' then David creating the Aliens would be an obvious contradiction.
Nothing like that happened though.
Doesn't change the fact that I want ancient elephant man. Pander to me.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 17, 2024, 02:13:20 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 17, 2024, 02:12:22 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 17, 2024, 02:06:52 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:59:25 AMNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
I want ancient elephant man! >:(
Everyone knows it was originally supposed to be old. The key word is "supposed to be". Alright three key words.
The film doesn't definitively state this though, which allowed Ridley to change it. If Ash had stabbed one of them dating devices they have in Prometheus and said 'This dude has been dead for thousands of years. And he has elephant DNA' then David creating the Aliens would be an obvious contradiction.
Nothing like that happened though.
Doesn't change the fact that I want ancient elephant man. Pander to me.
"Gives Local the Panderstone of doom"
Quote from: SM on Jan 17, 2024, 02:12:22 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 17, 2024, 02:06:52 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:59:25 AMNo one is pretending that the derelict and the alien wasn't meant to be old, people are just saying that now its not old, a fact that not many folk like because the original intent was far better.
I want ancient elephant man! >:(
Everyone knows it was originally supposed to be old. The key word is "supposed to be". Alright three key words.
The film doesn't definitively state this though, which allowed Ridley to change it. If Ash had stabbed one of them dating devices they have in Prometheus and said 'This dude has been dead for thousands of years. And he has elephant DNA' then David creating the Aliens would be an obvious contradiction.
Nothing like that happened though.
The first film ultimately conveys that it's old, ancient, hence the dialogue from Dallas. Even if people think he's incorrect, the point is driven across to convey that assessment that the derelict is ancient for some great world building and the prequels retcon that immediately.
To say that the derelict crashed recently is, in a word, uninteresting.
Then I hope it gets changed and helps you deal with the trauma.
Quote from: SM on Jan 17, 2024, 02:37:27 AMThen I hope it gets changed and helps you deal with the trauma.
Hey, if the prequels get retconned.. it'll be like these retcons never happened.
I think Noah makes some solid points, all things considered. The "futurized" (for lack of a better term) look of Prometheus and Covenant clash pretty bad with the retro-future look from the first two movies, and making the aliens a much more recent creation is just plain silly.
I seem to recall the novelization of Covenant had it that David's version was essentially a cheap knockoff of the original.
Quote from: KranfordTButcher on Jan 17, 2024, 03:07:09 AMI seem to recall the novelization of Covenant had it that David's version was essentially a cheap knockoff of the original.
This is correct, but apparently it was a unilateral decision by ADF (which his editor and the studio were evidently okay with).
Quote from: KranfordTButcher on Jan 17, 2024, 03:07:09 AMVeering back on topic. I think Noah makes some solid points, all things considered. The "futurized" (for lack of a better term) look of Prometheus and Covenant clash pretty bad with the retro-future look from the first two movies, and making the aliens a much more recent creation is just plain silly.
I seem to recall the novelization of Covenant had it that David's version was essentially a cheap knockoff of the original.
There's easy ways to make the tech differences fit.
Literally just show them existing in the same film in their different uses. It doesn't really need to be explained.
Yep. And if it really needs explaining to get something across to the audience, there a bunch of simple ways it could be done.
I can't for a second imagine they will.
I like the idea's proposed personally, clean sheet sounds like a much better path to go down. I guess the problem is always the same with these franchises - the timeline, rather than the content.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:42:47 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 17, 2024, 01:28:21 AMLater stories cannot change the intent of an earlier story; that intent is set in stone when it comes out.
Later stories can recontextualize what the earlier story shows us (that's what a retcon is), but that does not change its original intent. The intent of 'Alien' absolutely was that the Derelict and its contents were ancient, and Dallas uses narrative shorthand to convey that even if the precise words he's using aren't scientifically accurate. He's using a term the audience will understand to convey "this is old". Just because he didn't use the precisely correct scientific terminology doesn't mean the intent wasn't "the audience is meant to conclude this is old". Up until Alien Covenant came out, no one thought the Derelict might not be ancient.
Intentions can change, and what ever it was before does not matter to current intent.
Scott changed his intent and for good or bad, newer stories do overwrite old ones (unless otherwise stated or a sequel-reboot is made such as Dark fate not counting T3, TS, TG as ever happened) that is why is it called retroactive continuity and not futureactive continuity.
It does not matter what the intent was in the original because scott changed his mind and made intent clear in the prequels. The intentions behind the first movie no longer exist in the current franchise. If you have any respect for the director's intent as you seem to bring up his old intention, then you need to acknowledge what his intent was for Coventnent. It sucked for sure but the director made it clear.
Wouldn't it be O'Bannon's original intent tho, since he was the one who wrote it? I wouldn't say it was solely on Ridley Scott since that movie was essentially the perfect storm of creatives whereas Covenant and even Prometheus were not.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 16, 2024, 09:30:47 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 14, 2024, 10:42:18 PMCovenant isn't ambiguous at all and people who keep telling themselves that are deluding themselves.
Tell that to @Corporal Hicks who thinks it's "deliberately ambiguous" :)
11:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl5LV_degt4
Did I say deliberately ambiguous? I must have been drunk because I'm firm in the belief that the film is very clear in its intent, but there's enough leeway in there for them to easily work their way out of that story direction as per my other video.
Hicks knows what's up.
Canon is what's on screen. Not marketing material, novelizations or RPG source books.
Ridley wanted the alien to be the result of David playing God but what's on screen leaves enough leeway for David to be the creator of a just a new strain of the creature.
Similarly, there are enough differences between the space jockey and the Engineers to make a scenario in which they are two different species possible.
Until a new movie or show gives us definitive answers, everything is narratively fair game.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 17, 2024, 09:09:31 AMDid I say deliberately ambiguous?
That's what I've heard unless I was drunk :)
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 17, 2024, 07:00:38 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 01:42:47 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 17, 2024, 01:28:21 AMLater stories cannot change the intent of an earlier story; that intent is set in stone when it comes out.
Later stories can recontextualize what the earlier story shows us (that's what a retcon is), but that does not change its original intent. The intent of 'Alien' absolutely was that the Derelict and its contents were ancient, and Dallas uses narrative shorthand to convey that even if the precise words he's using aren't scientifically accurate. He's using a term the audience will understand to convey "this is old". Just because he didn't use the precisely correct scientific terminology doesn't mean the intent wasn't "the audience is meant to conclude this is old". Up until Alien Covenant came out, no one thought the Derelict might not be ancient.
Intentions can change, and what ever it was before does not matter to current intent.
Scott changed his intent and for good or bad, newer stories do overwrite old ones (unless otherwise stated or a sequel-reboot is made such as Dark fate not counting T3, TS, TG as ever happened) that is why is it called retroactive continuity and not futureactive continuity.
It does not matter what the intent was in the original because scott changed his mind and made intent clear in the prequels. The intentions behind the first movie no longer exist in the current franchise. If you have any respect for the director's intent as you seem to bring up his old intention, then you need to acknowledge what his intent was for Coventnent. It sucked for sure but the director made it clear.
Wouldn't it be O'Bannon's original intent tho, since he was the one who wrote it? I wouldn't say it was solely on Ridley Scott since that movie was essentially the perfect storm of creatives whereas Covenant and even Prometheus were not.
That is why Prometheus and Covenent deviated a lot, because there was no storm of creatives, no one to balance out Scott.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jan 17, 2024, 09:31:43 AMCanon is what's on screen. Not marketing material, novelizations or RPG source books.
Ridley wanted the alien to be the result of David playing God but what's on screen leaves enough leeway for David to be the creator of a just a new strain of the creature.
Similarly, there are enough differences between the space jockey and the Engineers to make a scenario in which they are two different species possible.
Until a new movie or show gives us definitive answers, everything is narratively fair game.
No, Canon is what they say is canon. Which can take multiple mediums. If nothing is usually said on a medium then that is when it is fair to go by heirarchy, such Movies being top tier.
You may try and ignore the intent all you want, it was still the intent of the man who made the movie. The movie shows it and I am pretty sure so did the director's commentary (I only listened once so I can't too sure) and then there is his interviews. There is nothing to interprete.
I do understand people being in denial, it is not a good addition to the lore but grasping at straws does not change what the director himself has made clear.
To be fair there's a case to be made that authorial intent doesn't matter, "death of the author" etc.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jan 17, 2024, 09:31:43 AMCanon is what's on screen. Not marketing material
Canon is a type of marketing.
The only thing that really matters when I'm watching a movie is that movie. I'm not hung up on David when I see the Space Jockey in Alien, and I'm not thinking about the ancient Derelict when I watch Covenant.
It's all "canon," but also, they're different films with different intentions and I find both to be uniquely interesting.
In the future, when I watch Covenant, I'll still likely approach it from the "David as creator" mindset because that is clearly the intent of the film, even if I end up loving Hawley's show and the different direction that the Alien's origin (or lack thereof) is spun in that series.
Between Noah Hawley and the writers of Aliens Dark Descent, I'm glad that Alien writers outright dislike Ridley's path for the alien series.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.memes.com%2Fmeme%2F499848&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0e35d12ee587ba24ca05520e459ad25aca070bab0c14e2752baffc845dd0e3ec&ipo=images)
I'll never understand why shrinking the Alien mythos instead of leaving it dark and mysterious as the void of space is a good thing. Just because it's the creator's intent doesn't mean it's always going to be a good idea.
If anything for a compromise though, I do accept the concept of David making his own xenomorph strain rather than being the sole creator. It's not new to the Alien series when you think about, EX: The King Alien, and it adds a new theme of the Alien mythos of messing around with things we don't understand and being irreparably irresponsible with said things. I can see future stories of WY and other organizations messing around with the Black Goo and having terrible results from it, creating all sorts of terrible monstrosities and things that should not be. Like how apparently in the Ridley Scott's director's commentary, the Praetomorph is able to regenerate from would-be fatal injuries like being crushed and dismembered, making it virtually indestructible. As if they are already not deadly enough but now they gotta regenerate?! It's like the Hunter from Dead Space, it's not a thing you can just shoot at you just gotta run away now and that like in Dead Space, adds more terror elements into the mythos for people to play with in future stories.
Plus the retro-futurism style is such a iconic look, its a huge part of the Alien identity that the smooth and sterile futuristic style especially robbed of the series' uniqueness. Whenever it's WH40K, Dead Space, Star Trek, Star Wars, ect, each futuristic artstyle sets it's unique identify to their world that people can quickly identify and remember with such ease. Numbing down Alien's style to a more generic tone robs it of it's roots and thus makes it indistinguishable from other sci-fi series, which should always be a big no no. Aliens is a trend setter, not a follower. There is a reason why many current sci-fi series takes inspiration from Aliens. I'm not saying it's not allowed to adopt new ideas into it's DNA but outright removing the elements that made it a trend setter in the first place is also not the way to go. I'm really glad he wishes to preserve that iconic art that should have never been torn from in the first place.
Expected there'd be division in the fanbase, since the Dats of Alien3, Resurrection, AvP, AVPR, Prometheus and Covenant fans picked n choose which they regarded, the Alien Tv show might perhaps not directly address aspect of the Prequels but I doubt they'll erase anything. Wonder what other forays into the world of Alien awaits, after Alien Romulus in August could we expect another feature two three years later set Post Alien3, or a Legacy sequel cashing on nostalgia, or is it likely to be more inter-quel set in between projects. We'll wait and see why the future hold
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 17, 2024, 08:02:45 PMPlus the retro-futurism style is such a iconic look, its a huge part of the Alien identity that the smooth and sterile futuristic style especially robbed of the series' uniqueness.
What retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
@The Cruentus I hard it was supposedly to apply a used dirty secondhand used future scrap metal aesthetic that work on Star Wars 1977. Could be mistaken if it was a director influence for the look of the tech.
Of course there probably was an intent in making things look dirty and used, but that its not same as being retro, it wasn't retro-futurism back then, it was just futurism based on what they had available to make it look futuristic.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 17, 2024, 08:02:45 PMBetween Noah Hawley and the writers of Aliens Dark Descent, I'm glad that Alien writers outright dislike Ridley's path for the alien series.
What did Dark Descent do? If it's a spoiler, throw it in spoiler tags I guess.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 12:59:10 AMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 17, 2024, 08:02:45 PMBetween Noah Hawley and the writers of Aliens Dark Descent, I'm glad that Alien writers outright dislike Ridley's path for the alien series.
What did Dark Descent do? If it's a spoiler, throw it in spoiler tags I guess.
Spoiler
The final level shows us a very ancient Engineer city but the beings there look like the original Engineers via Alien 1979, hinting that the albino Engineers are not the OGs after all.
(https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/064/745/532/large/sergey-kritskiy-01-01-den.jpg?1688647996)
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 01:15:08 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Alien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
That all being said, as a prequel, holograms and other such tech would stick out like a sore thumb when comparing to Alien. And I agree that it should not look sterile either. The environment and scenery needs to be memorable have character in its own right.
So they would have to explain it in my opinion.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMThe Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExajlxN2M4YWNyNDUxeXM5Y3BobnA0ZGZ2azlzMjlneDJpZWpyYTdraiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9cw/F50tAO4swD9uDqaFqF/source.gif)
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 01:15:08 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Alien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
Well I mean, looking at the aesthetics from the in-universe timeline, the "blue-collar" environments didn't change much from 2122 to 2179.
That isn't to say there isn't room for evolution or for alternate depictions provided there's contextual explanations for them, but the first two movies are setting a bit of a benchmark.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 01:15:08 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 12:59:10 AMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 17, 2024, 08:02:45 PMBetween Noah Hawley and the writers of Aliens Dark Descent, I'm glad that Alien writers outright dislike Ridley's path for the alien series.
What did Dark Descent do? If it's a spoiler, throw it in spoiler tags I guess.
Spoiler
The final level shows us a very ancient Engineer city but the beings there look like the original Engineers via Alien 1979, hinting that the albino Engineers are not the OGs after all.
(https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/064/745/532/large/sergey-kritskiy-01-01-den.jpg?1688647996)
Okay that's rad as hell.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 01:36:55 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 01:15:08 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Alien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
Well I mean, looking at the aesthetics from the in-universe timeline, the "blue-collar" environments didn't change much from 2122 to 2179.
That isn't to say there isn't room for evolution or for alternate depictions provided there's contextual explanations for them, but the first two movies are setting a bit of a benchmark.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 01:15:08 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:16:52 PMWhat retro-futurism though? Outside of the intentional style of Alien Isolation, the tech of Alien and Aliens was simply due to being the product of when it was made. It was not intended to be retro back in 79 and the 80s, it was just what they had to work with.
Yeah, like every single decade of their own iconic art style. Each decade had their own artstyle/idea of how the future will look. Doesn't mean they should just lose it's unique artistic appeal to a more sterile one.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 12:59:10 AMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 17, 2024, 08:02:45 PMBetween Noah Hawley and the writers of Aliens Dark Descent, I'm glad that Alien writers outright dislike Ridley's path for the alien series.
What did Dark Descent do? If it's a spoiler, throw it in spoiler tags I guess.
Spoiler
The final level shows us a very ancient Engineer city but the beings there look like the original Engineers via Alien 1979, hinting that the albino Engineers are not the OGs after all.
(https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/064/745/532/large/sergey-kritskiy-01-01-den.jpg?1688647996)
Okay that's rad as hell.
True there was more or less a consistent theme for 57 years but all we really see are suits that still resemble present day and they are still using screens. There is no reason to believe technology was frozen though as we get told about atmoshere processors, 500 surveyed worlds. etc
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMAlien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
That all being said, as a prequel, holograms and other such tech would stick out like a sore thumb when comparing to Alien. And I agree that it should not look sterile either. The environment and scenery needs to be memorable have character in its own right.
So they would have to explain it in my opinion.
Style and tech advancement are two different things though? You can have tech that is 300 years ahead but has that techo-futurism look. I seen rifles that have that 18th century look but can shoot modern day gunpowder and rounds much stronger than back in those days.
Tech can be updated but just draped in that 80s flair. Not using floppy disks anymore so it makes sense that will be gone. Holograms can be integrated, like look at Blade Runner that still captures its essence but still modernized to a degree. I seen the tech in Avatar that can easily fit in the Colonial Marine arsenal with just a bit more art tweaking to fully integrate into the Aliens world, and makes sense too because look at the director.
Hell look at Steampunk. The tech of that genre is centuries advanced than anything in that time period historically has but the look still fits in that time period. We got nothing today that compares like in the Bioshock series, all the stuff they got makes us outdated and this is in the late 19th century!
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/03/25/arts/bioshock/bioshock-jumbo.jpg)
It's all just artistic vision, bringing back the 80s but in some updated capacity and I hope Noah can capture that essence again.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 01:36:55 AMOkay that's rad as hell.
Haven't played the game yet? It's actually pretty good and I was against the RTS format at first. Wasn't a big fan of that type of gameplay but it turned me around to giving it a 9/10.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 04:36:41 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMAlien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
That all being said, as a prequel, holograms and other such tech would stick out like a sore thumb when comparing to Alien. And I agree that it should not look sterile either. The environment and scenery needs to be memorable have character in its own right.
So they would have to explain it in my opinion.
Style and tech advancement are two different things though? You can have tech that is 300 years ahead but has that techo-futurism look. I seen rifles that have that 18th century look but can shoot modern day gunpowder and rounds much stronger than back in those days.
Tech can be updated but just draped in that 80s flair. Not using floppy disks anymore so it makes sense that will be gone. Holograms can be integrated, like look at Blade Runner that still captures its essence but still modernized to a degree. I seen the tech in Avatar that can easily fit in the Colonial Marine arsenal with just a bit more art tweaking to fully integrate into the Aliens world, and makes sense too because look at the director.
Hell look at Steampunk. The tech of that genre is centuries advanced than anything in that time period historically has but the look still fits in that time period. We got nothing today that compares like in the Bioshock series, all the stuff they got makes us outdated and this is in the late 19th century!
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/03/25/arts/bioshock/bioshock-jumbo.jpg
It's all just artistic vision, bringing back the 80s but in some updated capacity and I hope Noah can capture that essence again.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 01:36:55 AMOkay that's rad as hell.
Haven't played the game yet? It's actually pretty good and I was against the RTS format at first. Wasn't a big fan of that type of gameplay but it turned me around to giving it a 9/10.
I'm in the middle of playing it, I just started encountering
Spoiler
the cultists in the shipping container maze
Quote from: Bojo on Jan 14, 2024, 09:24:00 AMThe Franchise just seems to be getting messier and messier. It's fun to some extent and I genuinely like the creative talent involved in these projects but the time line, continuity is really starting to lack cohesion and a smooth seamless trajectory. I think for that I'll just stick to the first 3 films and let everyone else have their own fun and creative interpretation of this popular franchise.
It's like a kid playing with Lego without the instructions. Just go wild I guess. Anything to bring in a new audience.
I still think Prometheus had a good amount of potential for it to be it's own singular universe, to some extent.
I desliked Covenant for so many reasons.
Character wise I found them all a load of nothing.
The only character I seemed to actually like died in the first 20 minutes.
Fuuuuuuck continuity. Shared universes and "canon" will be the death of this franchise and the whole medium. Truly who gives a shit. We don't need to see the life story of every single character and answer every unanswered question. Imagine all the incredible shit we could have gotten on screen for the last 40+ years if the producers didn't have such a hard-on for Sigourney Weaver, or if Ridley could check his ego at the door and leave these movies the f**k alone.
At least the Star Wars films had decades to grow and do new shit before they imploded into a shitfest of glup shittos and desert planets. With Alien? They couldn't even last four movies. I'll consider myself lucky if I don't have to see the derelict, space jockeys, David or Ripley again. The movies should have followed Dark Horse after 86 - get messy. Show us crazy shit. Make up a new company that's not WY. Give a robot some crazy swords. Put Aliens on Earth. Make em fight cavemen for all I care. I'd much rather watch something ass that tries something new than another movie from Scott or anyone else that's too scared to leave the shadow of a nearly 50-year-old movie.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:44:42 AMTrue there was more or less a consistent theme for 57 years but all we really see are suits that still resemble present day and they are still using screens. There is no reason to believe technology was frozen though as we get told about atmoshere processors, 500 surveyed worlds. etc
Just over 300 surveyed worlds, actually.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 17, 2024, 08:24:37 PMfuturism based on what they had available to make it look futuristic.
Totally agree.
Retro futurism has always been full of contradictions in itself. And that's the beauty of it. On one hand it's
futuristic vision and on the other
available tools people were using to make it look futuristic (product of its time).
In
Blade Runner (1982) we've got flying cars (spinners), replicants, off-world colonies (which requires advanced space ships) but there is no Internet, mobile phones, and even flat screens and so on.
In
Alien (1979) and it's sequels we've got androids, hypersleep chambers and the most important faster-than-light (if I'm not mistaken) space ships. But no Internet and mobile phones? Who would have thought about stuff like that at the time of making them? William Gibson did it in
Neuromancer (1984) though ;D
Why would the crew of the Nostromo have internet or mobile phones even if they existed? They're in interstellar space and the ship has an intercom.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 18, 2024, 12:31:16 PMWhy would the crew of the Nostromo have internet or mobile phones even if they existed? They're in interstellar space and the ship has an intercom.
Plus Weyland-Yutani's deep space communications network was still under development as of 2179, let alone 2122.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 18, 2024, 09:34:51 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:44:42 AMTrue there was more or less a consistent theme for 57 years but all we really see are suits that still resemble present day and they are still using screens. There is no reason to believe technology was frozen though as we get told about atmoshere processors, 500 surveyed worlds. etc
Just over 300 surveyed worlds, actually.
Ah that's right. Still a lot when you factor in the possible distance between those worlds.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 18, 2024, 04:36:41 AMQuote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:26:50 AMAlien creatures and space travel aside, the franchise is supposed to be set in a believable universe, so technology would evolve in that unniverse just like it does in the real world.
The Alien franchise not set in a fallout-esque alternate timeline where aesthetics is frozen to the 70s.
That all being said, as a prequel, holograms and other such tech would stick out like a sore thumb when comparing to Alien. And I agree that it should not look sterile either. The environment and scenery needs to be memorable have character in its own right.
So they would have to explain it in my opinion.
Style and tech advancement are two different things though? You can have tech that is 300 years ahead but has that techo-futurism look. I seen rifles that have that 18th century look but can shoot modern day gunpowder and rounds much stronger than back in those days.
Tech can be updated but just draped in that 80s flair. Not using floppy disks anymore so it makes sense that will be gone. Holograms can be integrated, like look at Blade Runner that still captures its essence but still modernized to a degree. I seen the tech in Avatar that can easily fit in the Colonial Marine arsenal with just a bit more art tweaking to fully integrate into the Aliens world, and makes sense too because look at the director.
Hell look at Steampunk. The tech of that genre is centuries advanced than anything in that time period historically has but the look still fits in that time period. We got nothing today that compares like in the Bioshock series, all the stuff they got makes us outdated and this is in the late 19th century!
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/03/25/arts/bioshock/bioshock-jumbo.jpg
It's all just artistic vision, bringing back the 80s but in some updated capacity and I hope Noah can capture that essence again.
That doesn't matter when Alien and Aliens never intended it to look retro, its the future to them, simple as. To use the same aethetics now, would be retro-futurism such as the case in Alien: Isolation. But back then it was just trying to look genuinely futuristic.
To make myself clear, I am not saying its a bad thing but it was never the intent when those films were made.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 18, 2024, 12:31:16 PMWhy would the crew of the Nostromo have internet or mobile phones even if they existed? They're in interstellar space and the ship has an intercom.
But they didn't exist. That's the whole point. Also, I'm not angry about it as I explained it's the beauty of retro futurism.
Characters in
The Expanse use mobile phones and network on daily basis.
I've been digesting the latest comments from Hawley a few days now.
Although I was very pro the prequels general direction, I believed it would sort out the loose ends in a third film but at this stage I accept a wider expansion or redirected origin story.
But I think the credibility of the franchise is again at a crossroads in how they handle this and the continuity with the main films and prequels, particularly as this is to be set on Earth and during the prequel time era.
I think one idea to resolve the retrofuturism contradictions with the prequel tech is to have some sort of cataclysmic event; like a massive solar flare incident or a shortage of certain elements that forces humanity to downgrade its technology could fly as a reason for this in my opinion.
What I would hate & would cheapen the value and relevance of what has already occurred in the franchise's established film canon is anything that contradicts, ignores or tries to reset everything with some hokey alternative timeline or time travel-That would be the nail in the coffin for me.
Although I would have liked to see a third prequel I could live without it, if I felt there was some continuation or effect of that story moving on, ie) In Fede's film that the source of the outbreak is a ghost ship Covenant that doesnt have to tell its story of how it got there but that the path for the franchise's future was clear by having this aspect resolved or referenced properly(Not via some throw away line)in some way.
Otherwise to me, the whole thing is going to be messier and my investment in the lore and story will diminish if things are further contradicted, lessened or not taken into consideration.
But I have faith in the tv series not doing that and dividing the fan base.. for the time being.
While there have been some damage in believability and flaws in the last two films, there was at least a grasp of gravitas restored to the Alien story after the AVP detour.
It would be a shame to trash the many good elements that have evolved out of the prequels & ignore/change just for the sake of a reset.
I think funnily enough that would kill it...the whole thing at the moment with its general lore and continuity is mostly intact still but that they need and I think they know to tread carefully or it's going to get really silly and cheap again as a result in my opinion.
Yeah. I think a major concern right now (for me, at least) is that Romulus is gonna diverge from the more cerebral direction of the prequels.
I'm ok with a change up in approach.
It's down to how both the two new Alien projects behave in terms of the franchise's film canon & lore, respecting largely what came before.
This is still mostly intact at this moment
Im more worried about the tv series doing this than the film as it has more time & scope.
Im guessing but my hunch is Fede's film is going to be great and gory but more a homage that will sit nicely and perhaps as a device to tick box prequel resolution & Alien Isolation fandom, or probably with some link or jeopardy with the drifting Narcissius wouldn't surprise me
Nothing cerebral about the prequels in my opinion, they were quite pretentious infact.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 18, 2024, 02:15:27 PMYeah. I think a major concern right now (for me, at least) is that Romulus is gonna diverge from the more cerebral direction of the prequels.
I'd say that's almost a certainty; Álvarez's MO through this point has basically positioned him as an edgier, almost grindhouse/splatter sort of horror director. Something a bit more schlocky and nasty than these movies can be (though
Alien 3 and
Covenant are pretty damn meanspirited), but also with a lot of heart and craft and respect for what's come before.
His
Evil Dead marries that with some very mean spirited humor to come up with a worthy successor to the tone/flavor of the original
The Evil Dead (which he was much more interested in harkening back to than he was
Evil Dead 2 or
Army of Darkness), and I'd imagine something similar here that's really setting out to extrapolate the tone of Scott and Cameron's first couple movies (which
Romulus is sandwiched between in the timeline), albeit with a bit of his own nastier edge in the mix.
We seem to have some confirmation that the prequels will be acknowledged in some limited capacity here, though I'd expect that to be a minor detail. My hope is still that the source of the Aliens in the film can be traced back to David seeding worlds/ships with his creations (even if the show ultimately reveals that the capital-A Alien form predates him and his antics on Planet 4 in
Covenant); could be that the salvage team finds the Covenant itself, long since abandoned by David but filled with samples of his work, but it could also just as easily be that the planet or ship or wherever it is that the eggs and their byproducts are found in this film could be just one of many locales that David visited and seeded after leaving the Covenant behind.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 18, 2024, 02:22:47 PMNo I'm ok with a change up in approach.
It's down to how both the two new Alien projects behave in terms of the franchise's film canon & lore, respecting largely what came before.
This is still mostly intact at this moment
I don't think the "canon & lore" is really the major concern here, at least for me. I just want to see something unique and interesting (and well made, of course) from both projects. Let Álvarez and Hawley both put their own stamps on what they're doing without the risk of things becoming too samey like the rut that so many other perpetually ongoing franchises have fallen down in the last few years.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 02:29:14 PMNothing cerebral about the prequels in my opinion, they were quite pretentious infact.
Nah. Well,
Prometheus to some extent is, mostly as a result of its script and overall execution being way too messy to really support/elevate its loftier ideas and concepts. But I'd argue that
Covenant irons most of that out in a much more palatable, and much better executed, overall experience.
Yah
I'm ok with expansion of lore and fresh approach just not something that upends or diminished the enterprise of a previous film
That is unfortunately what the prequels did. Ignoring/erasing them is not retconning in my personal opinion but course correcting. :laugh:
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 02:29:14 PMNothing cerebral about the prequels in my opinion, they were quite pretentious infact.
Totally agree.
Edit: Actually I found Prometheus to more pretentious than Covenant, not that Covenant helped matters either by not answering those questions raised in Prometheus.
I disagree that the prequels messed up lore & continuity
I can not be bothered arguing the toss about Fossilised Space Jockeys, deacons in murals etc so please don't start but to me there were no plot holes created, sure stuff opened up but without a definitive prequel conclusion are to me simply left unfinished
But the prequels had license in my opinion to do this regardless as they were serving a purpose to tell an origin and or a backstory
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 18, 2024, 04:01:02 PMI disagree that the prequels messed up lore & continuity
I can not be bothered arguing the toss about Fossilised Space Jockeys, deacons in murals etc so please don't start but to me there were no plot holes created, sure stuff opened up but without a definitive prequel conclusion are to me simply left unfinished
But the prequels had license in my opinion to do this regardless as they were serving a purpose to tell an origin and or a backstory
That is fine, does't change that they did mess up the lore and continuity though.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 01:09:33 PMThat doesn't matter when Alien and Aliens never intended it to look retro, its the future to them, simple as. To use the same aethetics now, would be retro-futurism such as the case in Alien: Isolation. But back then it was just trying to look genuinely futuristic.
To make myself clear, I am not saying its a bad thing but it was never the intent when those films were made.
I got ya!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2024, 04:57:12 AMI'm in the middle of playing it, I just started encountering Spoiler
the cultists in the shipping container maze
OOooooFFFFFFFFF nerve wreaking as hell. Too easily cornered in that section if you don't check the sections behind you when maneuvering around that area. I always place mines behind me as an early warning system, plus one less enemy to work with.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 18, 2024, 02:30:35 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 18, 2024, 02:15:27 PMYeah. I think a major concern right now (for me, at least) is that Romulus is gonna diverge from the more cerebral direction of the prequels.
I'd say that's almost a certainty; Álvarez's MO through this point has basically positioned him as an edgier, almost grindhouse/splatter sort of horror director. Something a bit more schlocky and nasty than these movies can be (though Alien 3 and Covenant are pretty damn meanspirited), but also with a lot of heart and craft and respect for what's come before.
His Evil Dead marries that with some very mean spirited humor to come up with a worthy successor to the tone/flavor of the original The Evil Dead (which he was much more interested in harkening back to than he was Evil Dead 2 or Army of Darkness), and I'd imagine something similar here that's really setting out to extrapolate the tone of Scott and Cameron's first couple movies (which Romulus is sandwiched between in the timeline), albeit with a bit of his own nastier edge in the mix.
We seem to have some confirmation that the prequels will be acknowledged in some limited capacity here, though I'd expect that to be a minor detail. My hope is still that the source of the Aliens in the film can be traced back to David seeding worlds/ships with his creations (even if the show ultimately reveals that the capital-A Alien form predates him and his antics on Planet 4 in Covenant); could be that the salvage team finds the Covenant itself, long since abandoned by David but filled with samples of his work, but it could also just as easily be that the planet or ship or wherever it is that the eggs and their byproducts are found in this film could be just one of many locales that David visited and seeded after leaving the Covenant behind.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 18, 2024, 02:22:47 PMNo I'm ok with a change up in approach.
It's down to how both the two new Alien projects behave in terms of the franchise's film canon & lore, respecting largely what came before.
This is still mostly intact at this moment
I don't think the "canon & lore" is really the major concern here, at least for me. I just want to see something unique and interesting (and well made, of course) from both projects. Let Álvarez and Hawley both put their own stamps on what they're doing without the risk of things becoming too samey like the rut that so many other perpetually ongoing franchises have fallen down in the last few years.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 18, 2024, 02:29:14 PMNothing cerebral about the prequels in my opinion, they were quite pretentious infact.
Nah. Well, Prometheus to some extent is, mostly as a result of its script and overall execution being way too messy to really support/elevate its loftier ideas and concepts. But I'd argue that Covenant irons most of that out in a much more palatable, and much better executed, overall experience.
Killing the protagonist of the prior setup off-screen before the movie setting and changing the entire direction from "Where do we come from (plus might get eaten by aliens)" to "Look at what a wrathful creature (David) we have created, and he is going to create (recreate!) our doom." is where the cerebral part for the sequel took a double-jaw to the brain. I even like Covenant more than Prometheus and everything but the first 3. It's just such a knee-jerk change in direction and obviously some contempt for the fan base ("I'll give them f**king aliens" or whatever the quote was) over salted the film a little bit during production. In a vacuum, I really like Covenant. As part of a bigger story, it suffers from a similar swerve in direction that made Episode VII feel disjointed from Episode VIII, and Episode IX feel like a hallucinogenic hodgepodge of Return of the Jedi and Episode VII. Follow the questions presented previously and it lands better IMO.
It was better executed overall than Prometheus. Both are absolutely beautiful.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 18, 2024, 12:31:16 PMWhy would the crew of the Nostromo have internet or mobile phones even if they existed? They're in interstellar space and the ship has an intercom.
'Hey Ripley are you busy?'
'Nah. Just watching one of my daughters TikToks.'
I'm a fan of Alex White's interpretation of Aliens retro-futuristic look: It's an aesthetic choice, but has no bearing on how advanced the computers actually are underneath or what kind of programming they're actually using.
The trap of modern tablets and phones is that...unlike a computer, you can't simply take them apart and replace parts like you can with a bulky desktop computer. You basically have to be a new one if it craps out.
Again, all this is assuming they actually use circuits or digital programming at all. We never actually see what's beneath the bulky screens or the actual hardware running it, just the acid green text readouts on the surface UI that seem to resemble late 70s/80s readouts.
They should get the people who did the set design and costumes for Maniac:
Still sad that we're getting Romulus and not the next instalment of the prequels. I'm sure (at least I hope) Romulus will be good but it's feeling like they're just gonna "retcon" Ridley's adaptation, it had/has so much potential and it would have been great picking up after David was vibing to Das Rheingold: Entry of the Gods into Valhalla and see what happens once the ship returns to earth 🌎
Quote from: VodouSpartan on Jan 22, 2024, 12:45:56 PMStill sad that we're getting Romulus and not the next instalment of the prequels. I'm sure (at least I hope) Romulus will be good but it's feeling like they're just gonna "retcon" Ridley's adaptation, it had/has so much potential and it would have been great picking up after David was vibing to Das Rheingold: Entry of the Gods into Valhalla and see what happens once the ship returns to earth 🌎
I believe we will get a sequel to covenant eventually. If Romulus does well it will show that there is still interest in the series and the studio will be more inclined to make more movies.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 22, 2024, 02:34:06 PMQuote from: VodouSpartan on Jan 22, 2024, 12:45:56 PMStill sad that we're getting Romulus and not the next instalment of the prequels. I'm sure (at least I hope) Romulus will be good but it's feeling like they're just gonna "retcon" Ridley's adaptation, it had/has so much potential and it would have been great picking up after David was vibing to Das Rheingold: Entry of the Gods into Valhalla and see what happens once the ship returns to earth 🌎
I believe we will get a sequel to covenant eventually. If Romulus does well it will show that there is still interest in the series and the studio will be more inclined to make more movies.
I always read your name as mamerom.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 22, 2024, 02:34:06 PMI believe we will get a sequel to covenant eventually.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3og0IAcP4QC1H7p31K/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 22, 2024, 07:29:09 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 22, 2024, 02:34:06 PMI believe we will get a sequel to covenant eventually.
https://media4.giphy.com/media/3og0IAcP4QC1H7p31K/giphy.gif
Where is Kylo? :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: VodouSpartan on Jan 22, 2024, 12:45:56 PMStill sad that we're getting Romulus and not the next instalment of the prequels. I'm sure (at least I hope) Romulus will be good but it's feeling like they're just gonna "retcon" Ridley's adaptation, it had/has so much potential and it would have been great picking up after David was vibing to Das Rheingold: Entry of the Gods into Valhalla and see what happens once the ship returns to earth 🌎
Many fans have hoped that David ends up getting smoked by an alien after finding out he isn't the true creator.
I think it's more fitting that he just rides the Covenant into infinity, being absolutely meaningless to the universe, as is fitting for the darkness and nihilism of the series. He just slowly fades away. Let his facehuggers be little genetic failures and nothing really interesting happens except that whatever comes from them ends up frying the life support and power system of the Covenant, leaving David to slowly run out of power with no one to listen to his ramblings.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 22, 2024, 07:58:09 PMQuote from: VodouSpartan on Jan 22, 2024, 12:45:56 PMStill sad that we're getting Romulus and not the next instalment of the prequels. I'm sure (at least I hope) Romulus will be good but it's feeling like they're just gonna "retcon" Ridley's adaptation, it had/has so much potential and it would have been great picking up after David was vibing to Das Rheingold: Entry of the Gods into Valhalla and see what happens once the ship returns to earth 🌎
Many fans have hoped that David ends up getting smoked by an alien after finding out he isn't the true creator.
I think it's more fitting that he just rides the Covenant into infinity, being absolutely meaningless to the universe, as is fitting for the darkness and nihilism of the series. He just slowly fades away. Let his facehuggers be little genetic failures and nothing really interesting happens except that whatever comes from them ends up frying the life support and power system of the Covenant, leaving David to slowly run out of power with no one to listen to his ramblings.
I'm not sure it feels like that would be kind of repetitive, just leaving him to wander space aimlessly and him becoming a shell of his former self seems like a more done up version of what was done between Prometheus and Covenant (cinematically). Despite David not being the creator of the Xenomorphs (which a final instalment could actually make it so he is) I still think his story still deserves a farewell in the form of that last movie. I do agree however that David should be offed, despite my liking towards his character, maybe his own creation destroying him would be a good ending to the character arc of David. Idk it just feels like there is so much more of the story to tell and the possibilities are seemingly endless with what they can do with it.
I'm just a hater. lol.
In a vacuum, I'm with you. I WANT to see what happens. I just don't like the David Creator angle in the least. I think it was unnecessary and lower quality than a mysterious, ancient creature. If the prequels were somehow not prequels, it's a heck of a start to a series (if filled with other issues) that would be introducing a cool A.I. gone rogue story and a nasty new creature, but, it's not.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 22, 2024, 08:57:22 PMI'm just a hater. lol.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l0IyhwEfKdNoUZ1ni/giphy.gif)
Quote from: razeak on Jan 22, 2024, 08:57:22 PMI'm just a hater. lol.
In a vacuum, I'm with you. I WANT to see what happens. I just don't like the David Creator angle in the least. I think it was unnecessary and lower quality than a mysterious, ancient creature. If the prequels were somehow not prequels, it's a heck of a start to a series (if filled with other issues) that would be introducing a cool A.I. gone rogue story and a nasty new creature, but, it's not.
I understand why some people don't like the idea that David created the Alien. I loved it, because I love David as a character, but I get it. However, I disagree that it made their origins less mysterious. See, we still have no idea where the Xeno-Virus/black goo came from, and
that is the true origin of the Alien.
Hear me out. It was shown in Prometheus, Covenant, and parts of their scripts that the Engineers used the black-goo to break down an organism into its base genetic components so it can then be used to seed worlds with that DNA (I.E The opening of Prometheus).
By that logic, that means there was a creature whose DNA was used to make the Xeno-Virus in the first place. Imagine how dangerous that thing must have been. It was so deadly that the Engineers would use ampules full of its DNA as weapons on worlds they wanted to destroy.
So, to me, the Alien's origins are still mysterious, ancient and largely unknown. We still have no idea where the Engineers found the original DNA source for their Xeno-Virus. All David really did was refine the byproducts of the Xeno-Virus into a more deadly organism. Like breeding a Rottweiler out of generic dog stock.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 22, 2024, 10:59:54 PMSee, we still have no idea where the Xeno-Virus/black goo came from, and that is the true origin of the Alien.
I don't care where the goo came from. It's goo. There's nothing interesting about that.
Covenant rocks.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 22, 2024, 08:57:22 PMI'm just a hater. lol.
In a vacuum, I'm with you. I WANT to see what happens. I just don't like the David Creator angle in the least. I think it was unnecessary and lower quality than a mysterious, ancient creature. If the prequels were somehow not prequels, it's a heck of a start to a series (if filled with other issues) that would be introducing a cool A.I. gone rogue story and a nasty new creature, but, it's not.
I wish Alien Covenant if nothing else was set post Alien Resurrection.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 22, 2024, 11:17:47 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 22, 2024, 10:59:54 PMSee, we still have no idea where the Xeno-Virus/black goo came from, and that is the true origin of the Alien.
I don't care where the goo came from. It's goo. There's nothing interesting about that.
I could get behind it if the black goo was reverse engineered from our beloved Ginger Alien eons ago.
Black goo is essentially royal jelly from the comics. Fans hated it then, but somehow behind it when Scott is the "source" of the idea. It's just an excuse for a magic do-everything plot point that you can get away without having to get into the meat and potatos exposition of explaining things. Which I suppose is good for those that don't like explanations as to why it does what it does in one movie to one person, and does what it does to another person in another movie and does what it does to the people and animals and aliens in the EU.
The mutation idea itself goes way back to Gibson's Alien 3 drafts.
Strangely enough I think my teenage brain might've dug it more because it is a magic plot device that does what it wants to. You could've had more variety. Now though it plays out EXACTLY like the DH comics version of royal jelly that everybody hated the idea of from when I was actually a teen.
With Local Trouble.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jan 23, 2024, 03:12:34 AMBlack goo is essentially royal jelly from the comics. Fans hated it then, but somehow behind it when Scott is the "source" of the idea. It's just an excuse for a magic do-everything plot point that you can get away without having to get into the meat and potatos exposition of explaining things. Which I suppose is good for those that don't like explanations as to why it does what it does in one movie to one person, and does what it does to another person in another movie and does what it does to the people and animals and aliens in the EU.
That's because there are different strains; the pathogen can be re-coded and altered, and there are distinct variants like the 26 Draconis Strain.
That doesn't make it any less lame.
The lazy writers black goo of convenience could possibly be made interesting with some creativity but finding a way to retcon the Engineers into making sense needs a miracle.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:37:30 AMThat doesn't make it any less lame.
How is it lame? It's one of the most compelling developments in the
Alien saga.
Well I don't think it works well with the tone established in the earlier movies. The first three movies were more believeable for example. The prequels added things that seemed scientifically impossible such as the black goo that can do anything. Its a Macguffin basically.
While the old movies did have the odd thing that required a suspension of disbelief, the prequels just seemed to want to be grand and over the top. And the black goo is something that doesn't seem plausible in my opinion.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 23, 2024, 12:29:13 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:37:30 AMThat doesn't make it any less lame.
How is it lame? It's one of the most compelling developments in the Alien saga.
There's nothing compelling about it. It's plot goo that does whatever a writer wants it to do. It's lame.
I think the main problem is that the pathogen hasn't been the subject of in-depth analysis lately; I think the last source to engage with it on an intellectual level was Into Charybdis.
I'm with Sil on it....mostly.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 23, 2024, 12:46:58 PMWell I don't think it works well with the tone established in the earlier movies. The first three movies were more believeable for example. The prequels added things that seemed scientifically impossible such as the black goo that can do anything. Its a Macguffin basically.
While the old movies did have the odd thing that required a suspension of disbelief, the prequels just seemed to want to be grand and over the top. And the black goo is something that doesn't seem plausible in my opinion.
Mystery box👀
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 12:47:33 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 23, 2024, 12:29:13 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:37:30 AMThat doesn't make it any less lame.
How is it lame? It's one of the most compelling developments in the Alien saga.
There's nothing compelling about it. It's plot goo that does whatever a writer wants it to do. It's lame.
The
films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts. This kind of biotechnology can either be used to create (what the Engineers did to shape humanity in their own image), or to destroy (what David did to the Engineer home world in Covenant).
Its only when you get into things like those Fire and Stone comics, where the author's just made up stuff, that the Black Goo just does random shit.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 22, 2024, 11:51:15 PMQuote from: razeak on Jan 22, 2024, 08:57:22 PMI'm just a hater. lol.
In a vacuum, I'm with you. I WANT to see what happens. I just don't like the David Creator angle in the least. I think it was unnecessary and lower quality than a mysterious, ancient creature. If the prequels were somehow not prequels, it's a heck of a start to a series (if filled with other issues) that would be introducing a cool A.I. gone rogue story and a nasty new creature, but, it's not.
I wish Alien Covenant if nothing else was set post Alien Resurrection.
Ooo that actually sounds kind of interesting, like the Aliens have been rendered extinct and David brought them back post Resurrection. I would like the film a lot more if that were the case.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 12:47:33 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 23, 2024, 12:29:13 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:37:30 AMThat doesn't make it any less lame.
How is it lame? It's one of the most compelling developments in the Alien saga.
There's nothing compelling about it. It's plot goo that does whatever a writer wants it to do. It's lame.
The films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts. This kind of biotechnology can either be used to create (what the Engineers did to shape humanity in their own image), or to destroy (what David did to the Engineer home world in Covenant).
Its only when you get into things like those Fire and Stone comics, where the author's just made up stuff, that the Black Goo just does random shit.
No. Just no. The pathogen is a terrible, inconsistent plot device that just does whatever the writers wanted it to do in Prometheus.
At least in Covenant, they tried going a specific direction with it, but in the end, its existence still cheapens the Aliens.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 07:27:58 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
All of that is consistent. The Engineer drank the Goo which then broke him down and spread his DNA everywhere, inserting its genes into whatever was around. That should be self-explanatory.
Ok, so then what about Fifield? He was exposed to the ampules that contained Goo
that had already been used on an Alien-like creature. The Black goo did its thing and Fifield was infected with Alien genes, mutating him. The same thing happened to Holoway, but at a much slower rate (he only drank 1 drop), and so his cells (including sperm) were mutated with Alien DNA. That is why Shaw had a mutant growing inside her.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 09:47:13 PMAll of that is consistent. The Engineer drank the Goo which then broke him down and spread his DNA everywhere, inserting its genes into whatever was around. That should be self-explanatory.
Ok, so then what about Fifield? He was exposed to the ampules that contained Goo that had already been used on an Alien-like creature.
Except that's not at all in the movie. There is zero explanation given in the film that what infects the crew later is any different to what the Engineer uses at the beginning.
The film made it up as it went along.
It's also weird that this hyper advanced race used a live Engineer to plant life on what is presumably Earth in this ritualistic way rather than using a recently deceased body; still plenty of DNA to use from that.
Also the opening doesn't show the dna combining with existing life, but rather creating new life from the Engineer's constituent parts.
It's all a mess.
No.. no. There is indeed an explanation for all those inconsistencies...
The Black Goo is magic.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 23, 2024, 10:00:55 PMIt's also weird that this hyper advanced race used a live Engineer to plant life on what is presumably Earth in this ritualistic way rather than using a recently deceased body; still plenty of DNA to use from that.
maybe this week it needed live dna? Dead DNA is next month.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 23, 2024, 11:58:56 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 23, 2024, 10:00:55 PMIt's also weird that this hyper advanced race used a live Engineer to plant life on what is presumably Earth in this ritualistic way rather than using a recently deceased body; still plenty of DNA to use from that.
maybe this week it needed live dna? Dead DNA is next month.
Hey, DNA can live for a loooooooong time.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:51:13 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 09:47:13 PMAll of that is consistent. The Engineer drank the Goo which then broke him down and spread his DNA everywhere, inserting its genes into whatever was around. That should be self-explanatory.
Ok, so then what about Fifield? He was exposed to the ampules that contained Goo that had already been used on an Alien-like creature.
Except that's not at all in the movie. There is zero explanation given in the film that what infects the crew later is any different to what the Engineer uses at the beginning.
The film made it up as it went along.
On the one hand, I agree that there was no exposition to walk the audience through this. I largely blame Lindelof for that as he can't help himself but make things as vague as possible no matter what project he is working on.
That being said, you can still piece together how the black goo works with what is shown on screen. The room where the Ampules were found shows a shrine to an Alien/Deacon looking creature. Take that, combine it with the opening scene which showed how the goo breaks down living things and then redistributes their DNA, and you can work out how the Pathogen works and what is happening to Fifield, the Hammerpedes, and Holoway.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 10:12:07 PMAlso the opening doesn't show the dna combining with existing life, but rather creating new life from the Engineer's constituent parts.
It's all a mess.
Listen to 3:52
https://youtu.be/UrL_Kmjo4UM?t=236
The liquid in the beginning must be a different one, it looks different and functions different, especially in contrast to Alien Covenant.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 12:46:38 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:51:13 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 09:47:13 PMAll of that is consistent. The Engineer drank the Goo which then broke him down and spread his DNA everywhere, inserting its genes into whatever was around. That should be self-explanatory.
Ok, so then what about Fifield? He was exposed to the ampules that contained Goo that had already been used on an Alien-like creature.
Except that's not at all in the movie. There is zero explanation given in the film that what infects the crew later is any different to what the Engineer uses at the beginning.
The film made it up as it went along.
On the one hand, I agree that there was no exposition to walk the audience through this. I largely blame Lindelof for that as he can't help himself but make things as vague as possible no matter what project he is working on.
That being said, you can still piece together how the black goo works with what is shown on screen. The room where the Ampules were found shows a shrine to an Alien/Deacon looking creature. Take that, combine it with the opening scene which showed how the goo breaks down living things and then redistributes their DNA, and you can work out how the Pathogen works and what is happening to Fifield, the Hammerpedes, and Holoway.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 10:12:07 PMAlso the opening doesn't show the dna combining with existing life, but rather creating new life from the Engineer's constituent parts.
It's all a mess.
Listen to 3:52
https://youtu.be/UrL_Kmjo4UM?t=236
Eh.. I don't agree. I don't need exposition for what is supposed to be shown on screen. Unfortunately, what is shown on screen does not add up at all in Prometheus. You could ultimately try and piece the black goo togetherand what not, but with how much is going on with it on film would ultimately end up being messy fansplainations.
Since the goo (Plantarwarts plumpityplumps) is the big star of the series now, maybe we should have a crossover with the black oil from The X-Files and the mood slime from Ghostbusters.
Let's see if it can make a toaster dance.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 12:46:38 AMThat being said, you can still piece together how the black goo works with what is shown on screen. The room where the Ampules were found shows a shrine to an Alien/Deacon looking creature. Take that, combine it with the opening scene which showed how the goo breaks down living things and then redistributes their DNA, and you can work out how the Pathogen works and what is happening to Fifield, the Hammerpedes, and Holoway.
So, again, there's nothing in the film itself that says that the ampules are some later-stage version of the pathogen, just a supposition based on a mural.
The film itself makes no distinction between what we see at the beginning, and what we see the rest of the film. It certainly offers no explanation that this is Goo V.2. If the goo breaks down an organism to combine it with another, where does Goo V.2 even come from? The goo has done its job, destroying one thing to make another. Where is it explained that this process then creates Goo V.2 with new properties?
SiL is correct. There is no consistency to what the goo does, until David gives a bit of detail in Covenant and even then it's a bit vague and not the same as Prometheus.
I like the idea of genetic accelerant, but that's a post hoc explanation.
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 02:05:30 AMSiL is correct. There is no consistency to what the goo does, until David gives a bit of detail in Covenant and even then it's a bit vague and not the same as Prometheus.
I like the idea of genetic accelerant, but that's a post hoc explanation.
You should make a new video about it.
Speaking of which, your last one is closing in on 12k views now. :o
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 09:51:13 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 09:47:13 PMAll of that is consistent. The Engineer drank the Goo which then broke him down and spread his DNA everywhere, inserting its genes into whatever was around. That should be self-explanatory.
Ok, so then what about Fifield? He was exposed to the ampules that contained Goo that had already been used on an Alien-like creature.
Except that's not at all in the movie. There is zero explanation given in the film that what infects the crew later is any different to what the Engineer uses at the beginning.
The film made it up as it went along.
Agreed. Why is it any different from drinking the goo to turn into DNA dust to spread life on a barren world than to poke it and somehow mutate into a more dangerous aggressive lifeform?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 24, 2024, 02:11:22 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 02:05:30 AMSiL is correct. There is no consistency to what the goo does, until David gives a bit of detail in Covenant and even then it's a bit vague and not the same as Prometheus.
I like the idea of genetic accelerant, but that's a post hoc explanation.
You should make a new video about it.
Speaking of which, your last one is closing in on 12k views now. :o
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 24, 2024, 02:11:22 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 02:05:30 AMSiL is correct. There is no consistency to what the goo does, until David gives a bit of detail in Covenant and even then it's a bit vague and not the same as Prometheus.
I like the idea of genetic accelerant, but that's a post hoc explanation.
You should make a new video about it.
Speaking of which, your last one is closing in on 12k views now. :o
That'd mean I'd probably need to dive into RPG "lore"...
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 02:54:54 AMThat'd mean I'd probably need to dive into RPG "lore"...
Wouldn't that canonize it?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 01:49:34 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 12:46:38 AMThat being said, you can still piece together how the black goo works with what is shown on screen. The room where the Ampules were found shows a shrine to an Alien/Deacon looking creature. Take that, combine it with the opening scene which showed how the goo breaks down living things and then redistributes their DNA, and you can work out how the Pathogen works and what is happening to Fifield, the Hammerpedes, and Holoway.
So, again, there's nothing in the film itself that says that the ampules are some later-stage version of the pathogen, just a supposition based on a mural.
Nothing overt, but the clues are there.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 01:49:34 AMThe film itself makes no distinction between what we see at the beginning, and what we see the rest of the film. It certainly offers no explanation that this is Goo V.2. If the goo breaks down an organism to combine it with another, where does Goo V.2 even come from? The goo has done its job, destroying one thing to make another. Where is it explained that this process then creates Goo V.2 with new properties?
There is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film.
Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.
Stage 1: Expose the goo to an organism.
Stage 2: That organism is broken down into component DNA.
Stage 3: The DNA is dispersed and infects other lifeforms.
The ampules we see in the mural room are full of goo at the 2nd stage. The alien/deacon creature has already been broken down, stored in the ampules, and is ready to be released. Unfortunately for the Engineers there was a outbreak on LV-223 and they all died.
Again, absolutely nothing in the film suggests or supports that this is what is happening. This is all post hoc explanation.
The Engineer drank a small cup of goo and broke into bits. Holloway and Fifield ingested differing amounts, and transformed into angry mutants, and didn't break into bits. The worms on LV-223 swam in it and turned into angry mutants and didn't break into bits.
And the engineer at the beginning turns into dust, not goo.
This is all very confusing.
Always thought it looked like some kind of lifeform the way it moves and swarms and the Engineer disintegrates. Not unlike the stuff that gets Ledward and Hallet, but also not the same.
Maybe there is a vid in this after all.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 03:24:43 AMAgain, absolutely nothing in the film suggests or supports that this is what is happening. This is all post hoc explanation.
There is no exposition scene, sure. But to say there is nothing in the film that supports this? Come on. Every example I am giving is taken from the movie.
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 03:30:50 AMThe Engineer drank a small cup of goo and broke into bits. Holloway and Fifield ingested differing amounts, and transformed into angry mutants, and didn't break into bits. The worms on LV-223 swam in it and turned into angry mutants and didn't break into bits.
Correct.
Engineer drinks stage 1 goo = breaks into bits.
Holloway and Fifield are exposed to stage 2 goo
that has been created using an alien/deacon creature and are infected with its DNA. Same for the worms.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 03:31:54 AMAnd the engineer at the beginning turns into dust, not goo.
The dust is part of the dispersal process. Its shown again in Covenant when David bombs the Engineer home world. In the opening scene of Prometheus you can see the black goo spreading and coursing through the Engineer's veins. You even get a look at it in the inside of his arm as his veins collapse
how can it be same thing if stage 1 is different for the 2 examples you gave?
the resultimg creatures would not be the same?
the ampules had different stage 1 hosts?
despite the deacon on the wall fifield turned into something not representing a deacon?
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 24, 2024, 04:00:54 AMhow can it be same thing if stage 1 is different for the 2 examples you gave?
the resultimg creatures would not be the same?
the ampules had different stage 1 hosts?
despite the deacon on the wall fifield turned into something not representing a deacon?
Yes, the ampules had a different stage 1 host. The black goo in the opening of Prometheus was used on an Engineer, and the goo in the mural room had been used on an alien/deacon.
So, for example, if Fifield and Holoway had been exposed to a stage 2 ampule made from a predator they probably would have mutated with dreadlocks, mandibles, or green blood.
You've just made all that up though.
It's interesting, but has no basis in the film.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 24, 2024, 01:34:47 AMSince the goo (Plantarwarts plumpityplumps) is the big star of the series now, maybe we should have a crossover with the black oil from The X-Files and the mood slime from Ghostbusters.
Let's see if it can make a toaster dance.
The best crossover would be with the black goo from 'Species II' 😁👍
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 04:29:14 AMYou've just made all that up though.
It's interesting, but has no basis in the film.
???
None of what I am saying is made up. Every example I am giving is taken from the movie.
???
see nothing in the movie that supports your reasoning.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 04:38:33 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 04:29:14 AMYou've just made all that up though.
It's interesting, but has no basis in the film.
???
None of what I am saying is made up. Every example I am giving is taken from the movie.
Where does the film state that the ampules are second stage and from different sources?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 05:04:25 AMWhere does the film state that the ampules are second stage and from different sources?
Again, there is no overt exposition scene, but the clues
are there. The film shows what happens when an organism is infected by the goo. It shows how the goo breaks down and then transfers DNA. This is not my wild theory, its shown in the movie.
So, when you have characters enter a room full of Alien/Deacon imagery, then get exposed to goo which mutates them into Alien/Deacon hybrids, its easy to make the connection that the goo in those ampules had been created using an Alien/Deacon precursor. Deductive reasoning.
It's a theory you've applied that only works if you include things that you've made made up.
We don't see anything turn into Alien/Deacon hybrids. Fifield turns into a lumpy, gooey mess. The worms turn into cobras.
The only way they look like hybrids is if we start from the position they're hybrids and work backwards.
It's an interesting theory, but it's not in the film at all.
I can kind of see Fifield in the same ball park with his big head, but as SiL said the worms didn't turn into Aliens/ Deacon things. Shaw got knocked up with the super-size facehuggery thing, but not something with a pointy head like Ledward or Hallet. And the infected Engineer head just exploded. The other dead Engineers didn't turn into Alien-like things.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 05:21:30 AMWe don't see anything turn into Alien/Deacon hybrids. Fifield turns into a lumpy, gooey mess. The worms turn into cobras.
The only way they look like hybrids is if we start from the position they're hybrids and work backwards.
It's an interesting theory, but it's not in the film at all.
By hybrid, I mean they were infected with Alien/Deacon DNA. The worms got acid blood, and I mean, just
look at what Holloway's mutated sperm resulted in.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 05:43:10 AMBy hybrid, I mean they were infected with Alien/Deacon DNA. The worms got acid blood, and I mean, just look at what Holloway's mutated sperm resulted in.
Fifield got what -- melty? What part of Alien/Deacon DNA is that? The Engineer head they find exploded.
And why did Holloway get mutant sperm and last so long before he got melty? If it was Alien DNA, why wouldn't Holloway function as the face-hugger, and Shaw give birth to something resembling a chest-burster?
We can only reasonably conclude they're Alien/Deacon hybrids if we start from the idea they're Alien/Deacon hybrids. The film is not at all clear or consistent on the matter.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 05:52:48 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 05:43:10 AMBy hybrid, I mean they were infected with Alien/Deacon DNA. The worms got acid blood, and I mean, just look at what Holloway's mutated sperm resulted in.
Fifield got what -- melty? What part of Alien/Deacon DNA is that? The Engineer head they find exploded.
And why did Holloway get mutant sperm and last so long before he got melty? If it was Alien DNA, why wouldn't Holloway function as the face-hugger, and Shaw give birth to something resembling a chest-burster?
We can only reasonably conclude they're Alien/Deacon hybrids if we start from the idea they're Alien/Deacon hybrids. The film is not at all clear or consistent on the matter.
Fifield's face was melty because acid blood burned through his helmet onto his face. I assume the Engineer's severed head exploded because it was 2000 years old, infected with dangerous mutagen, and thus unstable.
Holloway lasted so long because he got a much smaller dose.
Fifield didn't have acid blood.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 06:11:05 AMFifield's face was melty because acid blood burned through his helmet onto his face.
We see the same look start to develop on the Engineer's head before it explodes.
Just reading this thread is making me like Prometheus a lot less... All thanks to the black goo.
don t blame ya. just that the potential was awesome. still is.
what a waste
Also:
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:48:41 AMThe dust is part of the dispersal process.
Where does Prometheus show the dust reconstitutes into goo if it doesn't find a suitable host?
To recap:
The film shows goo + host = goo dust = dna in a river connecting with cells
Then, goo + people = crazy mutants.
The film doesn't establish goo + host = dust, dust + host = crazy mutant
Nor dust - host = goo V2.
If the urns released dust/spores in Prometheus like they do in Covenant we'd have a clear distinction between what happens to the Engineer and what happens to the crew of the Prometheus. Instead we just get goo that does whatever wherever.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 10:58:09 AMAlso:
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:48:41 AMThe dust is part of the dispersal process.
Where does Prometheus show the dust reconstitutes into goo if it doesn't find a suitable host?
Huh.. interesting. For all we know, that's a dead planet they're on.
Yeah I didn't realise the dna was moving with string until listening to the commentary. The visuals just look like the dna is rapidly developing into cells.
Well.......the goo apparently has more variety than I realized. Without thinking too hard I had 3 examples in mind. Now there are more.
Maybe the goo is just unstable and gives different effects. Maybe randomness is built in. I don't know.
The goo and all the DNA madness and Engineers are just so out of tone compared to the first three Alien films. It's like someone did a crossover fan story between Alien and some random low-rate sci-fi TV show.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 24, 2024, 11:42:38 AMWell.......the goo apparently has more variety than I realized. Without thinking too hard I had 3 examples in mind. Now there are more.
Maybe the goo is just unstable and gives different effects. Maybe randomness is built in. I don't know.
David states in
Advent that the pathogen is wildly chaotic, leading to his attempt to sequence it.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 24, 2024, 11:42:38 AMWell.......the goo apparently has more variety than I realized. Without thinking too hard I had 3 examples in mind. Now there are more.
Maybe the goo is just unstable and gives different effects. Maybe randomness is built in. I don't know.
But as Janek stated, he assumed that LV-223 was a military installation, so with that in mind, the black goo would probably have to be engineered for specific tasks, because I think with something with that much variety would be uncontrollable, which is indeed the case in the film.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 10:58:09 AMAlso:
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:48:41 AMThe dust is part of the dispersal process.
Where does Prometheus show the dust reconstitutes into goo if it doesn't find a suitable host?
To recap:
The film shows goo + host = goo dust = dna in a river connecting with cells
Then, goo + people = crazy mutants.
The film doesn't establish goo + host = dust, dust + host = crazy mutant
Nor dust - host = goo V2.
If the urns released dust/spores in Prometheus like they do in Covenant we'd have a clear distinction between what happens to the Engineer and what happens to the crew of the Prometheus. Instead we just get goo that does whatever wherever.
This was precisely why I hated the black goo as shown in Prometheus. I hated the absolute lack of coherency in what it was doing. The later explorations in the EU with it being programable has gone a long way to me not minding it so much, but as shown in Prometheus...it was just a mess.
With that in mind, this hyper advanced society had thousands if not millions of years to fix up the black goo to fit their needs, so that's also a hard thing for me to buy.
David says it takes on many forms.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 11:29:39 AMYeah I didn't realise the dna was moving with string until listening to the commentary. The visuals just look like the dna is rapidly developing into cells.
Moving with string?
Well, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling in holes here.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:21:44 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling holes here.
I mean the place was full of dangerous pathogens so it might've been a "never go there" situation. It's not like they needed anything from there.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:23:09 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:21:44 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling holes here.
I mean the place was full of dangerous pathogens so it might've been a "never go there" situation. It's not like they needed anything from there.
Like a signal got out, somehow.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:27:15 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:23:09 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:21:44 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling holes here.
I mean the place was full of dangerous pathogens so it might've been a "never go there" situation. It's not like they needed anything from there.
Like a signal got out, somehow.
Or when they lost contact they knew not to investigate.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:32:24 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:27:15 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:23:09 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:21:44 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling holes here.
I mean the place was full of dangerous pathogens so it might've been a "never go there" situation. It's not like they needed anything from there.
Like a signal got out, somehow.
Or when they lost contact they knew not to investigate.
Mm yea, like that's a clause in their contracts and so on.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
He didn't kill them all. Engineers crop up in several RPG missions and Inferno's Fall; plus, a presumably large population escaped known space via the Lychgate to escape the Fulfremmen.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 24, 2024, 01:39:31 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
He didn't kill them all. Engineers crop up in several RPG missions and Inferno's Fall; plus, a presumably large population escaped known space via the Lychgate to escape the Fulfremmen.
What's a Fulfremmen?
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 01:53:01 PMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 24, 2024, 01:39:31 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
He didn't kill them all. Engineers crop up in several RPG missions and Inferno's Fall; plus, a presumably large population escaped known space via the Lychgate to escape the Fulfremmen.
What's a Fulfremmen?
A humanoid species created by the Engineers in a failed attempt to recreate the Xenomorph. Also known as the Perfected.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 24, 2024, 01:39:31 PMHe didn't kill them all. Engineers crop up in several RPG missions and Inferno's Fall; plus, a presumably large population escaped known space via the Lychgate to escape the Fulfremmen.
That's getting a bit too Star Trek-ish for something in the Alien series.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:32:24 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:27:15 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:23:09 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:21:44 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
Right, I get that, but thousands of years have passed since everything went to sh*t on 223. And quarantines only last for so long. So they probably should've investigated at that point and possibly would've salvaged what was left. I'm filling holes here.
I mean the place was full of dangerous pathogens so it might've been a "never go there" situation. It's not like they needed anything from there.
Like a signal got out, somehow.
Or when they lost contact they knew not to investigate.
but did they send a signal? Lol
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 12:18:03 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 24, 2024, 12:09:10 PMWell, now I have a question.. did the Engineers never truly investigate what happened on 223 after all that, aside from seemingly abandoning their plans to destroy humanity?
We'll never know because David murder them in the sequel before we get any resolution to any of the questions in Prometheus.
I could be wrong but I remember either watching or reading something that said those people down on the planet weren't the engineers, just another of their creations that looks similar to them. I guess that's why they looked so dissimilar to the one shown in the beginning of Prometheus? Really not sure
That's one of the many fan theories revolving around the prequels. As far as the production was concerned, they're Engineers and David wiped out their homeworld.
Personally, I don't mind the idea that they aren't actually Engineers. I don't think they look too dissimilar to their depiction in Prometheus, but I just find the city aesthetic disappointing so them being another culture the Engineers created works for me.
in promethues one of images shown to the crew by shaw and Holloway was dated to be well after the events that killed the engineers on lv 223. meaning that an engineer ship visited earth with engineers well after the events recorded in the tunnel with hologram of the running engineers.
hence
on screen we have proof that a group of engineers existed well after those events with interstellar travel ability. why they didn t destroy earth is a mystery.
I like the spin that the planet at the beginning of Prometheus isn't Earth but Planet 4 from Covenant.
The Engineers in Prometheus are military with their souped up physiques and or perhaps are a form of hybrid Engineer microdosed with black goo 😄
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 06:27:46 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 06:11:05 AMFifield's face was melty because acid blood burned through his helmet onto his face.
We see the same look start to develop on the Engineer's head before it explodes.
That is just the severed Engineer head's peeling skin because it's desiccated. Put them up side-by-side and they are quite different.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 06:27:46 AMThe film doesn't establish goo + host = dust, dust + host = crazy mutant
It does though. Prometheus shows goo + host = dust. Following that logic then the dust is the result of when goo breaks down a host, yes? Ok. Covenant shows David release the ampules, they detonate mid atmosphere, the goo disperses into dust, and the Engineers are infected. Some die outright due to uncontrollable mutations, and others become mutants like Fifield, Holloway, and the worms did. That is where the Neomorphs, and all the Alien mutant things in David's lab come from. They are like 2nd or 3rd generation byproducts of the black goo infecting the Engineer home world.
Listen to 2:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6dF99kuzgU
Planet 4 was supposed to be the Engineer homeworld and it consisted of one city with a few thousand inhabitants?
That's some Star Trek shit right there.
Yeah it is nonsense. Just like most of the character and Alien behaviour in the prequels. They exist to facilitate each idea Ridley Scott finds interesting at any given time, not as an organic consequence of the story, they do not inform each other but instead exist apart.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 07:44:41 PMIt does though. Prometheus shows goo + host = dust. Following that logic then the dust is the result of when goo breaks down a host, yes? Ok. Covenant shows ...
There's the rub - this conversation is about
Prometheus not being consistent. You can't bring
Covenant into it.
Prometheus doesn't establish what happens when the dust interacts with anything living, and doesn't establish a link between the dust and the supposed Goo V2.
For that matter, Covenant also doesn't link dust and Goo V2.
All this incohesion laid before me and yet people out here still try to convince me that Ridley Scott is a good storyteller :laugh:
Yeah, nah, it's stuff like this why the prequels are always going to be a stain on overall Alien series, there is just too entanglement to work around. Everything is unclear and contradicts each other, and I fear about any future involvement with him making things even more incomprehensible.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 07:44:41 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 06:27:46 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 06:11:05 AMFifield's face was melty because acid blood burned through his helmet onto his face.
We see the same look start to develop on the Engineer's head before it explodes.
That is just the severed Engineer head's peeling skin because it's desiccated. Put them up side-by-side and they are quite different.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 06:27:46 AMThe film doesn't establish goo + host = dust, dust + host = crazy mutant
It does though. Prometheus shows goo + host = dust. Following that logic then the dust is the result of when goo breaks down a host, yes? Ok. Covenant shows David release the ampules, they detonate mid atmosphere, the goo disperses into dust, and the Engineers are infected. Some die outright due to uncontrollable mutations, and others become mutants like Fifield, Holloway, and the worms did. That is where the Neomorphs, and all the Alien mutant things in David's lab come from. They are like 2nd or 3rd generation byproducts of the black goo infecting the Engineer home world.
I'm sorry but this is all just guesswork. It's just pattern recognition on what you might think it is and making it so because you want it to be, there is no real core evidence to this as the art on the wall can also mean something else entirely. After all it's an alien race we talking about here, what they mean through thier art is a completely different meaning to them than it is to us, we have no basis on knowing how Engineer's thought process works. I can easily say that its a room full of failed black goo that turns things violent instead of creating life, failed prototypes. Maybe the goo works proper with Engineer DNA but hostile towards anything else? Or maybe the sacrificial Engineer went through DNA modification to make the goo usable for the life growing process?
It can be anything but also nothing at the same time. Hence why I'm always on the side of making proper canon make sense, otherwise it's all just white noise....and keeping Ridley away from all from this.
From Building Better Worlds:
"Different strains of the Engineers' black pathogen were developed to create variations on genetic acceleration. Stored at different planetary facilities, many were used to bioengineer entire worlds and species. Others were weaponized, transforming the Engineers and their genetic offshoots into abominations, anathemas, neomorphic, protomorphic, and xenomorphic mutations, as well as other abhorrent creatures - including the Engineers' worst enemy - the Perfected".
Completely unhelpful in a conversation about what the movie Prometheus shows.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 09:44:35 PMCompletely unhelpful in a conversation about what the movie Prometheus shows.
Well, obviously we see a variant of the pathogen designed to create life at the beginning of
Prometheus. The variant that crops up later is clearly more destructive.
Same with the strain that David unleashes in
Covenant.
None of which is actually explained or suggested by the movie itself.
Yea, even though the substance in the beginning looks different somehow, there's nothing in the film to suggest that it isn't the black goo. And if it wasn't, then it should've been a more substantial plot device.
All that requires it to be improved upon's to show The Pathogen doing the same stuff again but different circumstances in a new story, repetition's necessary to provide consistently.
Plot goo is still lame even if it is compartmentalised.
Everyone knows I have my fair share of complaints about the prequel movies, but playing devils advocate here;
I really don't think there's really *that* big of an inconsistency between Prometheus and Covenant when it comes to the Pathogen.
First thing first; there's a lot of assumption here that what the Engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus is the same substance as what is in the urns on LV-233. We see a black substance. A bottle of turps looks like a bottle of water without labels. So removing that as a potential outlier for a moment, what do we actually see the goo from the vases do? Only one of two things;
It rewrites the physiology of an organic life form and either 1: kills them, or 2; triggers mutation. That was pretty consistent across both movies.
It appears variables affect the outcome. In humans;
When consumed in a minute amount, infection spreads slowly.
When literally bathed/face-planted in it, mutation is more obvious.
Of course, the weapon wasn't designed to be consumed, in covenant, we see the effects it causes on a population in huge quantities when detonated airborne as intended; it appears inhalation causes a volatile response, with bodies literally mutating and turning themselves inside-out (possibly a result of oxidisation?).
In animals, we know it creates hybrid forms, usually with xeno-esque head shapes (I know someone mentioned the hammerpedes don't have this, but it's that a fair analysis? Worms have no distinguishable head at all, whereas a closed hammerpede head is clearly distinctly a head- I'd say it's pretty much doing the same thing as we saw it do the creatures in David's lab).
The trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
But I think most importantly, the whole point of the movie was the analogy of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods... playing with something we don't understand. It's not *supposed* to make sense, because it's beyond our understanding; even now, as an audience we are making anthropomorphic assumptions (myself included) to what we think it does/doesn't do, or should do, trying to make it fit with our understanding. It's alien in the truest sense of the word.
That being said, I still believe it only does two things, as David states in Covenant, and as we see across two movies. There are so many external variables involved I don't think it's fair to say it's inconsistent. 😅
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMI really don't think there's really *that* big of an inconsistency between Prometheus and Covenant when it comes to the Pathogen.
It's not that it's inconsistent between movies; it's that it's not consistent within
Prometheus.
QuoteFirst thing first; there's a lot of assumption here that what the Engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus is the same substance as what is in the urns on LV-233. We see a black substance. A bottle of turps looks like a bottle of water without labels.
If you're introducing a black liquid with particular properties at the start of your movie, and we see a black liquid later in the movie that's clearly associated with the first black liquid but with different properties, you kind of want to explain the difference at some point if they're meant to be different things. Prometheus does not.
As someone who loves the prequels - the goo/ pathogen rarely does the same thing twice.
Engineer - Dissolved to seed a planet with life.
Engineer head - exploded.
Holloway - got real sick. Blood vessels turning black. Possibly mutating.
Fifield - very cross. Probably mutating. Into what we don't know. Maybe his bulbous head will blow up like the Engineer.
Shaw - bore the trilobite not otherwise affected.
Then in Covenant, the Engineers are either burned or bear Neomorphy things.
The pathogen creates the puffball things or mutates local fungus and from them Ledward and Hallet bear Neomorphs.
It also wipes out local fauna - probably similar to how it took out the Engineers.
From a story point of view, the Alien is simple to follow. You don't want a hugger to get on your face - we know what will happen if it does. If you try to shoot or cut an Alien, it will bleed acid. If someone has been impregnated there's a ticking clock.
Post-hoc explanations to explain inconsistencies with the goo doesn't mean they suddenly aren't inconsistencies anymore. It's clear they had no grand plan and set of rules for the stuff.
And that's why plot goo is lame.
It needed some limitations.
It needed its own franchise.
But you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.
To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.
Now ponder on that for a moment; I can do all these wonderful things in a controlled lab setting, but it's a miracle the chemical works the same way at all in a real-world environment where you can't possibly control the dilution; it could be delivered in a huge body of water in the open ocean, or a small confined tide pool no bigger than the animal itself with daily fluctuating pH, and yet this one chemical is capable of so many different outcomes.
Think of how many variables affected the outcomes of the pathogen; sure, an engineer head exploded; do we know how he was infected? They were running from something; being infected by a pathogen created organism could result in very different outcomes than ingestion or inhalation; consider that the airborn pathogen triggers volatile mutation, whilst pathogen infected botanical fauna, such as the fungus, releases spores which result in a neomorph; raw pathogen doesn't do that.
So yes, we see lots of different things in the two movies, but there are lots of factors to consider.
To expect consistency, we would have to see the exact same thing happen twice under the same conditions, and we haven't seen that in Prometheus or Covenant.
All we know for certain is that the pathogen triggers mutation/hybrid forms or results in death, something shown in both movies and explained by David in Covenant.
For all my many hang ups and nit-picks with those movies, I have to be honest, the pathogen wasn't one of them. I was ok with how it was presented, especially with the whole 'stealing fire from the gods' metaphor. It seemed fitting. 😅
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 12:30:37 AMIt needed its own franchise.
Now THAT I 100% agree with you on! I'd have rather had all of the prequel stuff kept out of the Alien franchise; Ridley should have gotten that out of his system in a 'Raised by Wolves' movie trilogy.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:02:56 AMBut you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.
You're ignoring that this is a film we're talking about. Information needs to be established and communicated through the story. If the pathogen has different properties under different circumstances, this needs to be shown.
Prometheus simply does not do a good job -- or any job -- of giving a reason for the goo to be doing what it does in the story. There's no consistency, or logic behind the inconsistencies, because, quite frankly, they didn't bother. It does whatever will create the most dramatic set piece to push the story along.
We can all sit here and think about why it may or may not be like this. I actually like
@marrerom 's explanation. But it's not in the movie. It requires dots being connected that are plausible, but at no point ever brought up or supported by the movie itself.
This is the discussion. Marrerom said
Prometheus is consistent, we're showing it isn't. Whether it bothers anyone or not or whether it can be handwaved or not isn't the question, it's that the film itself presents it as liquid plot development.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:02:56 AMBut you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.
To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.
Now ponder on that for a moment; I can do all these wonderful things in a controlled lab setting, but it's a miracle the chemical works the same way at all in a real-world environment where you can't possibly control the dilution; it could be delivered in a huge body of water in the open ocean, or a small confined tide pool no bigger than the animal itself with daily fluctuating pH, and yet this one chemical is capable of so many different outcomes.
Think of how many variables affected the outcomes of the pathogen; sure, an engineer head exploded; do we know how he was infected? They were running from something; being infected by a pathogen created organism could result in very different outcomes than ingestion or inhalation; consider that the airborn pathogen triggers volatile mutation, whilst pathogen infected botanical fauna, such as the fungus, releases spores which result in a neomorph; raw pathogen doesn't do that.
So yes, we see lots of different things in the two movies, but there are lots of factors to consider.
To expect consistency, we would have to see the exact same thing happen twice under the same conditions, and we haven't seen that in Prometheus or Covenant.
All we know for certain is that the pathogen triggers mutation/hybrid forms or results in death, something shown in both movies and explained by David in Covenant.
For all my many hang ups and nit-picks with those movies, I have to be honest, the pathogen wasn't one of them. I was ok with how it was presented, especially with the whole 'stealing fire from the gods' metaphor. It seemed fitting. 😅
I don't have issues with the pathogen either. There are ways to explain it.
The point is - the film, objectively, doesn't.
I just want to say, I don't disagree that Prometheus needed more exposition to clearly define the Goo's properties. I just disagree that there is
no evidence in the films as to how the Goo works or what it does.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 07:44:41 PMIt does though. Prometheus shows goo + host = dust. Following that logic then the dust is the result of when goo breaks down a host, yes? Ok. Covenant shows ...
There's the rub - this conversation is about Prometheus not being consistent. You can't bring Covenant into it.
Fair.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMPrometheus doesn't establish what happens when the dust interacts with anything living
It does, (DNA merging with cells).
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMand doesn't establish a link between the dust and the supposed Goo V2.
Just to be clear, I assume you are talking about the ampules in the mural room leaking goo but not dispersing into dust. Yes? If so, then what the movie shows is that the ampules didn't release their payload as intended. Instead, they leaked out dormant Goo V2 because they were 2000 years old and the sudden change in the atmosphere triggered the ampules to fail.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMFor that matter, Covenant also doesn't link dust and Goo V2.
Sure it does. It shows a ship from LV-223 (where Goo V2 ampules were being mass produced), full of ampules which are then rained down on the Engineers. The Ampules detonate mid air and release Goo V2 which disperses into dust.
(BTW, I am saying dust for lack of a better word. The airborne particles sound and move more like a swarm of insects to be honest).
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 06:12:05 AMIt does, (DNA merging with cells).
We don't see what that results in.
QuoteJust to be clear, I assume you are talking about the ampules in the mural room leaking goo but not dispersing into dust. Yes? If so, then what the movie shows is that the ampules didn't release their payload as intended. Instead, they leaked out dormant Goo V2 because they were 2000 years old and the sudden change in the atmosphere triggered the ampules to fail.
You've yet to explain how we go from dust flying around to goo in ampules. When the goo in the opening interacts with a host it breaks it down and flies around.
Where is it established this free floating dust can or does get collected as goo in ampules for further distribution?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 07:40:30 AMYou've yet to explain how we go from dust flying around to goo in ampules. When the goo in the opening interacts with a host it breaks it down and flies around.
Where is it established this free floating dust can or does get collected as goo in ampules for further distribution?
The pathogen starts out as liquid. We see David mixing it in
Advent. When correctly deployed in an atmosphere, it atomizes. We see that when the Engineer sacrifices himself at the start of
Prometheus, and when David unleashes the pathogen on Planet 4.
Hi! Once again, we're only talking about Prometheus' portrayal. Advent is irrelevant.
Prometheus never once established the dust will return to a liquid form if unsuccessful in finding a host.
It also doesn't show the goo re-atomise when exposed to atmosphere in the structure or on the ship. In fact, Prometheus only shows atomisation in contact with a host, not atmosphere, and only once.
And it certainly never establishes that the 2000 year timeline interfered with a process it never actually establishes.
All of these explanations come from external sources or inferring information the film does not at all provide.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 09:30:16 AMHi! Once again, we're only talking about Prometheus' portrayal. Advent is irrelevant.
Prometheus never once established the dust will return to a liquid form if unsuccessful in finding a host.
It also doesn't show the goo re-atomise when exposed to atmosphere in the structure or on the ship. In fact, Prometheus only shows atomisation in contact with a host, not atmosphere, and only once.
And it certainly never establishes that the 2000 year timeline interfered with a process it never actually establishes.
All of these explanations come from external sources or inferring information the film does not at all provide.
And hi to you!
Prometheus only introduces the
concept of the pathogen; further explanation comes later, the most thorough of which is featured in
Advent. And yes,
Advent is entirely canon.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 09:36:00 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 09:30:16 AMHi! Once again, we're only talking about Prometheus' portrayal. Advent is irrelevant.
Prometheus never once established the dust will return to a liquid form if unsuccessful in finding a host.
It also doesn't show the goo re-atomise when exposed to atmosphere in the structure or on the ship. In fact, Prometheus only shows atomisation in contact with a host, not atmosphere, and only once.
And it certainly never establishes that the 2000 year timeline interfered with a process it never actually establishes.
All of these explanations come from external sources or inferring information the film does not at all provide.
And hi to you! Prometheus only introduces the concept of the pathogen; further explanation comes later, the most thorough of which is featured in Advent. And yes, Advent is entirely canon.
I would argue that it's only canon.. until it's not, like Hicks has stated. And that's all EU, where its canonicity is questionable anyway in the larger context.
So.. to make it short, like I do with Star Wars, if it not's on screen, it's not canon to me, the EU can go f**k itself. And I love a lot of that stuff.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 09:50:34 AMSo.. to make it short, like I do with Star Wars, if it not's on screen, it's not canon to me, the EU can go f**k itself. And I love a lot of that stuff.
But
Advent is on screen; it's one of the
Covenant short films (and is Level 1 canon, along with the films and
Isolation).
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 09:36:00 AMAnd hi to you! Prometheus only introduces the concept of the pathogen; further explanation comes later, the most thorough of which is featured in Advent. And yes, Advent is entirely canon.
Once again, this particular conversation is about whether
Prometheus is internally self consistent. RPG, Advent, Covenant, etc continue to be precisely as irrelevant as the last time I told you this.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 09:52:54 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 09:50:34 AMSo.. to make it short, like I do with Star Wars, if it not's on screen, it's not canon to me, the EU can go f**k itself. And I love a lot of that stuff.
But Advent is on screen; it's one of the Covenant short films (and is Level 1 canon, along with the films and Isolation).
But not in the film itself. And weren't we told to not hold those shorts as gospel?
This thread would strongly suggest we don't hold anything as gospel.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 09:55:17 AMBut not in the film itself. And weren't we told to not hold those shorts as gospel?
Only
She Won't Go Quietly and the Audi lunar rover video, both of which contradict the film. The rest (
The Crossing,
The Last Supper,
Phobos,
Advent) are fully canonical.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 09:59:13 AMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 09:55:17 AMBut not in the film itself. And weren't we told to not hold those shorts as gospel?
Only She Won't Go Quietly and the Audi lunar rover video, both of which contradict the film. The rest (The Crossing, The Last Supper, Phobos, Advent) are fully canonical.
But are those shorts within the context of Prometheus?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 09:53:05 AMOnce again, this particular conversation is about whether Prometheus is internally self consistent. RPG, Advent, Covenant, etc continue to be precisely as irrelevant as the last time I told you this.
Well, of course
Prometheus isn't self-consistent by itself - but that's because further explanation is yet to be given.
Roger Ebert said it himself:
Prometheus has more questions than answers.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 10:03:15 AMWell, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent
Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.
Questions that will never be answered. And hence the issue of the prequels.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 10:06:17 AMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 10:03:15 AMWell, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent
Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.
Not really. The original comment made was that goo's portrayal in the filmS (plural) was pretty consistent; I believe you replied to that persons comment replying "there was no consistency in Prometheus" thus yourself making it about a singular movie 😂 I personally agree with the original comment; it's consistent between the two movies. It either mutates or kills the infected. The outcome of those is dependent on circumstances.
Edit; here it is;
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 07:27:58 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
You know, if I have a bottle of milk, and drink it, it's milk. If I apply motion to the bottle and shake it a while, it's butter. If I mix it with something else, it can be pastry. If I drink it and then have intercourse with someone, it's no longer going to provide the same results and nourishment as if that person had ingested fresh milk. Why anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen. Covenant shows (and explains) what it does... and that corresponds to what we saw it do in the first movie; mutate or kill.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMCovenant shows (and explains) what it does...
...which is then expanded upon in
Advent, including an in-depth explanation of its nature.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 02:10:27 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMCovenant shows (and explains) what it does...
...which is then expanded upon in Advent, including an in-depth explanation of its nature.
Oh, 100% agree, it's absolutely valid tie-in media to the movie just as 'The Crossing' is, though I purposely omitted that to be devils advocate for the benefit of the 'only theatrical movies can be considered' crowd. 😊
The fact that you need a tie-in or some other 3rd party source to actually explain its nature in the film Prometheus just makes it fundamentally worse for me.
Before Covenant's release, using Prometheus on its own as a reference, I saw the pathogen as an attempt by the Engineers to reverse-engineer/control/weaponize the Alien (which itself was ancient), given how aligned many of its properties are to what we know from the Alien itself: the Trilobite's mode of reproduction, the Hammerpede's acid blood, the overall shape of the Deacon/mural, etc. And obviously even in this more distilled form, the Engineers couldn't really control anything, as the pathogen and its many forms/evolutions ultimately led to the downfall of their installation on LV-223.
After Covenant's release, my mindset there flipflopped. In the context of this film, the pathogen itself is root source, the ancient, eldritch entity with those raw traits and forms that we typically associate with the Alien baked into it, and it was David's specific shaping of those forms that yielded the particular capital-A Alien form that we all know and love. As with Dr. Frankenstein creating his Creature using the bodies of dead human beings, the raw material existed before Victor's work, but he [Victor/David] is the creator of the new life made using those materials.
It seems that Hawley's show is going to flipflop things yet again, back a bit closer to where they were in Prometheus, with the Alien now established as pre-dating the pathogen, and it now seeming likely, in the context of the show's take on things, that David had inadvertently used the materials at his disposal to re-create the ancient form that the pathogen was derived from in the first place so many years ago.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 10:06:17 AMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 10:03:15 AMWell, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent
Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.
Not really. The original comment made was that goo's portrayal in the filmS (plural) was pretty consistent; I believe you replied to that persons comment replying "there was no consistency in Prometheus" thus yourself making it about a singular movie 😂 I personally agree with the original comment; it's consistent between the two movies. It either mutates or kills the infected. The outcome of those is dependent on circumstances.
Edit; here it is;
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 07:27:58 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
You know, if I have a bottle of milk, and drink it, it's milk. If I apply motion to the bottle and shake it a while, it's butter. If I mix it with something else, it can be pastry. If I drink it and then have intercourse with someone, it's no longer going to provide the same results and nourishment as if that person had ingested fresh milk. Why anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen. Covenant shows (and explains) what it does... and that corresponds to what we saw it do in the first movie; mutate or kill.
So you're also saying that the black goo and the film still lack consistency? Because that's all I'm getting from reading this.
so both lack viscocity?
lol
(https://bbs.oppo.com/upload/image/front/thread/20220812/652793093/1131526466631892993/1131526466631892993.gif)
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 03:01:32 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 10:06:17 AMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 10:03:15 AMWell, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent
Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.
Not really. The original comment made was that goo's portrayal in the filmS (plural) was pretty consistent; I believe you replied to that persons comment replying "there was no consistency in Prometheus" thus yourself making it about a singular movie 😂 I personally agree with the original comment; it's consistent between the two movies. It either mutates or kills the infected. The outcome of those is dependent on circumstances.
Edit; here it is;
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 07:27:58 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
You know, if I have a bottle of milk, and drink it, it's milk. If I apply motion to the bottle and shake it a while, it's butter. If I mix it with something else, it can be pastry. If I drink it and then have intercourse with someone, it's no longer going to provide the same results and nourishment as if that person had ingested fresh milk. Why anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen. Covenant shows (and explains) what it does... and that corresponds to what we saw it do in the first movie; mutate or kill.
So you're also saying that the black goo and the film still lack consistency? Because that's all I'm getting from reading this.
Nope, I'm saying the black goo does the same two things in both Prometheus and Covenant. It consistently kills or causes mutation/hybridisation in both movies. The rate/end result of those two things may differ depending on circumstances/external factors. Trying to argue that a life-form grown inside someone who had intercourse with someone subjected to the pathogen is an inconsistency because someone consuming raw pathogen generates a different result is like comparing apples and oranges.
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 02:43:55 PMThe fact that you need a tie-in or some other 3rd party source to actually explain its nature in the film Prometheus just makes it fundamentally worse for me.
Except you don't need a tie-in or 3rd party source, which is why I purposely omitted using the movie shorts in my original example. Prometheus and Covenant are consistent with one another. And in Covenant , David literally explains what it does; which correlates to what we saw in Prometheus. I'm not saying I like it (if I had my way, only Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 would be canon lol) - but as others are so fond of saying here; "that's what the movies show us".
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 07:40:30 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 06:12:05 AMIt does, (DNA merging with cells).
We don't see what that results in.
It results in us.
Humanity. 15 min or so after the opening scene (which shows Engineer DNA merging with cells) Holloway and Shaw walk the audience through their thesis: That humanity was made by the Engineers. We are made in their image and literally have their DNA in us.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 07:40:30 AMYou've yet to explain how we go from dust flying around to goo in ampules. When the goo in the opening interacts with a host it breaks it down and flies around.
The Engineers
engineered a way to store Goo V2 in ampules, to be used as weapons. The
how is ultimately not important. The result is shown on screen (The juggernaut's cargo hold).
I imagine the process probably looked like this: Infect Alien/Deacon thing with Goo -> Goo breaks down host -> Engineers intervene prior to full dispersal and store the stage 2 goo in ampules.
Building Better Worlds actually states that the Naiad/Trilobite (big tentacled facehugger-type thing in Prometheus) is usually spawned by Ovomorph-like pods dubbed "Womb-bats" as part of the Living Proto-Hive.
The way Shaw is infected by Holloway in Prometheus is an alternate method of creating it; this latter form is known as the "Zygote" or "eye-worm".
So the pathogen, ah, finds a way.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 05:23:45 PMInfect Alien/Deacon thing with Goo
Not 100% buying that this would work or do anything.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMWhy anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen.
Why anyone expects something that disintegrates one guy to explode another but turn a third into a zombie but give a fourth mutant sperm is beyond me.
There's zero explanation in
Prometheus why it has such wildly different effects.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 05:23:45 PMIt results in us. Humanity.
So not horrifying mutants.
Kind of proving my point there.
QuoteI imagine the process probably looked like this: Infect Alien/Deacon thing with Goo -> Goo breaks down host -> Engineers intervene prior to full dispersal and store the stage 2 goo in ampules.
Your entire explanation hinges on this concept, and not a word of it is in the movie.
I also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMSo not horrifying mutants.
Kind of proving my point there.
Building Better Worlds explains that some strains of the pathogen create. Others destroy.
Yes, this is from an EU source but it is entirely consistent with what we see in
Prometheus.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 25, 2024, 06:58:58 PMI also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.
Don't even have to go as far as the novels to provide an example of that:
Prometheus has a Hammerpede swimming around in a river of goo without further mutating.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 07:03:54 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMSo not horrifying mutants.
Kind of proving my point there.
Building Better Worlds explains that some strains of the pathogen create. Others destroy.
Yes, this is from an EU source but it is entirely consistent with what we see in Prometheus.
Prometheus doesn't establish different strains. It could have, the way the early drafts of the script explained different types of facehuggers, but it didn't.
Prometheus can only be made sensible by outside sources.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMWhy anyone expects something that disintegrates one guy to explode another but turn a third into a zombie but give a fourth mutant sperm is beyond me.
All under completely different circumstances/ conditions. Why does taking 2 paracetamol aid a headache, but 20 paracetamol potentially cause death?
QuoteThere's zero explanation in Prometheus why it has such wildly different effects.
I think this is the problem I'm reading in a lot of different conversations lately; when did it become a requirement for cinema to need to be so literal and spell everything out as opposed to having the audience use their heads? I'm guessing the writers most likely didn't feel that level of hand-holding was required. 😅 In a movie which is a metaphor for stealing fire from the gods (not even shying from it in using Prometheus as the movies title *and* the ships name), addressing an alien substance beyond human knowledge and comprehension, opting to show us visually what it is capable of in a variety of different situations and conditions (which basically amounts to two things when you actually break it down) ...I mean, beyond David literally opening one of the urns and pulling out a piece of paper fortune-cookie style written in engineer with large subtitles in bold lettering across the screen "it kills or it mutates/hybridises" what more was required? 😅 we can see what it does. Covenant goes the extra step in having David explain it to the Covenant crew (which corresponds to what we saw in Prometheus).
I mean, if we apply the same level of expectation to the original trilogy as you are describing, then why don't the xenomorphs look the same in 'Aliens' as they do in 'Alien'? Why do ovomorphs from the same ship produce different looking creatures? Applying your same rules of going by only what's in the movie, and not using our heads to make a reasonable logical deduction; there's no explanation, no line of dialogue, it's just an inconsistency. But nobody trips over it as we can make a logical assumption; in this case, time from reaching maturity being the off-screen variable. Same applies in Prometheus; they show us what the pathogen does; in each of those different outcomes you describe, no two situations were the same. If we'd seen the engineer drink from the cup at the beginning of the movie and disintegrate, and then saw another do the same and explode, I'd see your point. But we don't, so we can comfortably deduce what the variables are.
'Prometheus sucks at providing a consistent portrayal of a major concept it introduced.'
'Yeah but RPG.'
'That's not the argument being made. The film does a bad job with this'
'Yeah but RPG.'
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 08:00:05 PMI mean, if we apply the same level of expectation to the original trilogy as you are describing, then why don't the xenomorphs look the same in 'Aliens' as they do in 'Alien'? Why do ovomorphs from the same ship produce different looking creatures?
This is a terrible example. Their appearance isn't relevant to the plot. It makes no difference whether it looks like Big Chap or the Warriors. You could swap the designs between the first two films and not a thing changes.
When it
was actually relevant, in Alien 3, they acknowledge it. Ripley remarks the Alien is different, confirming to the audience that the new appearance isn't just cosmetic.
Prometheus introduced something significant, has it do wildly inconsistent things, and never once tried to reconcile them. It doesn't need to be spelled out in excruciating detail.
Also a drop of goo will not act a painkiller but will also kill you.
Quote from: SM on Jan 25, 2024, 08:22:17 PMAlso a drop of goo will not act a painkiller but will also kill you.
The analogy was the same substance doing different things with different variables applied, in this case, quantity.
So eventually Charlie would've got better?
After a bit of a lie down?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMWhy anyone expects something that disintegrates one guy to explode another but turn a third into a zombie but give a fourth mutant sperm is beyond me.
The method of transmission varied, that's why.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 08:37:50 PMThe method of transmission varied, that's why.
Ingesting it had two different results, topical application had two different results, and exploding heads is a wild card.
the black goo is simple.
Any writer should roll a D20 with a set table of 20 different results whenever anyone gets infected AND they should abide by the results.
;D
20 for super sperm
19 for neomorph infection (either back or mouthburster)
18 for mutation into neomorph
17 hammerpedes explode out of your eyeballs
16 you shit out a deacon...
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 08:48:29 PMIngesting it had two different results,
We aren't even sure that what the engineer drank is the *exact* same substance as in the vases, but for sake of your argument, let's say it is;
Then we are talking a small cup full vs a droplet diluted in an alcoholic beverage. We see one rapidly break down DNA, we see the other potentially breaking it down at a much slower rate prior to being flamethrowered so we don't see the end result.
Quotetopical application had two different results,
It mutated Fifiled, it Mutated the worms.
Quoteand exploding heads is a wild card.
A 2000+ year old, non-living head that was having its nerves artificially stimulated.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 09:16:57 PMWe aren't even sure that what the engineer drank is the *exact* same substance as in the vases,
Yes almost like the film makes no attempt to explain, which is exactly the point.
QuoteWe see one rapidly break down DNA, we see the other potentially breaking it down at a much slower rate prior to being flamethrowered so we don't see the end result.
Destroying DNA would result in sperm dying, not turning into mutant sperm. We also see something in Holloway's eye.
QuoteIt mutated Fifiled, it Mutated the worms.
One turned into a completely different organism and the other turned into a zombie.
QuoteA 2000+ year old, non-living head that was having its nerves artificially stimulated.
So if you simulate your nerves while infected you explode?
The eye worm was mutated sperm. Probably.
Gross if true.
Absolutely true. It's in the RPG so it must be. It's called a spermworm. Probably.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 04:53:17 PMQuote from: xShadowFoxX on Jan 25, 2024, 03:01:32 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:41:45 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 10:06:17 AMQuote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 10:03:15 AMWell, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent
Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.
Not really. The original comment made was that goo's portrayal in the filmS (plural) was pretty consistent; I believe you replied to that persons comment replying "there was no consistency in Prometheus" thus yourself making it about a singular movie 😂 I personally agree with the original comment; it's consistent between the two movies. It either mutates or kills the infected. The outcome of those is dependent on circumstances.
Edit; here it is;
Quote from: SiL on Jan 23, 2024, 07:27:58 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 23, 2024, 05:58:35 PMThe films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.
Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.
It just makes set pieces.
You know, if I have a bottle of milk, and drink it, it's milk. If I apply motion to the bottle and shake it a while, it's butter. If I mix it with something else, it can be pastry. If I drink it and then have intercourse with someone, it's no longer going to provide the same results and nourishment as if that person had ingested fresh milk. Why anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen. Covenant shows (and explains) what it does... and that corresponds to what we saw it do in the first movie; mutate or kill.
So you're also saying that the black goo and the film still lack consistency? Because that's all I'm getting from reading this.
Nope, I'm saying the black goo does the same two things in both Prometheus and Covenant. It consistently kills or causes mutation/hybridisation in both movies. The rate/end result of those two things may differ depending on circumstances/external factors. Trying to argue that a life-form grown inside someone who had intercourse with someone subjected to the pathogen is an inconsistency because someone consuming raw pathogen generates a different result is like comparing apples and oranges.
You're just telling me that the goo constantly contradicts itself on screen. If I recall correctly, nobody gets killed by the black goo in Prometheus save for the engineer in the beginning, who happens to dissolve like a drink mix to supposedly create life, anybody else is killed by more external factors. Covenant tho, that at least takes a somewhat simpler route (which is still lame).
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHVhbWVvZjNlOTVrY2R0ZDZ3amV2cG1mZWh6MXJnbWY0OTYxbno4MiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/yvUfx4piu4YwjfmOVH/source.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 05, 2014, 01:50:00 AMAm I the only one who suspects that Janosz Poha in Ghostbusters II was based on H.R. Giger? I wonder if Sigourney had a hand in that. :D
Exhibit A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejSIv8RaW2c)
Exhibit B (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8sc3uJWSM)
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 05:23:45 PMIt results in us. Humanity.
So not horrifying mutants.
Kind of proving my point there.
Define horrifying mutants. Fifield and Holloway level of mutated? The generations that follow the initial exposure to the goo look much more "natural" for lack of a better word (Deacon and Neomorphs). Current humanity is many millions of generations removed from the first contact with the Engineer seeding and so we look fine. If the dust from the Engineer infected something like a turtle or a bug, then that would look pretty horrifying as it mutated. Later generations would look better as the genetic structure stabilized.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 06:55:18 PMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 05:23:45 PMI imagine the process probably looked like this: Infect Alien/Deacon thing with Goo -> Goo breaks down host -> Engineers intervene prior to full dispersal and store the stage 2 goo in ampules.
Your entire explanation hinges on this concept, and not a word of it is in the movie.
I know. I do not disagree with you on this. What I am pointing out is that the film
does show how the goo breaks living things down and then combines their genetics with other living things. So, when we see people getting infected by goo and start mutating with Alien/Deacon DNA (acid blood, Xeno-sperm, elongated head), then its not a stretch to play the tape
backwards and conclude that the goo in these ampules had been created by breaking down
something that looked like an Alien/Deacon.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 25, 2024, 07:18:30 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 25, 2024, 06:58:58 PMI also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.
Don't even have to go as far as the novels to provide an example of that: Prometheus has a Hammerpede swimming around in a river of goo without further mutating.
Correct. The movie shows that once mutated an organism won't get further mutated.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 25, 2024, 11:47:06 PMThe generations that follow the initial exposure to the goo look much more "natural" for lack of a better word (Deacon and Neomorphs).
But then the Hammerpede looks pretty natural right off the bat.
Quotethen its not a stretch to play the tape backwards and conclude that the goo in these ampules had been created by breaking down something that looked like an Alien/Deacon.
You
can draw this conclusion, yes.
You can also draw many others, because the film doesn't provide any real evidence one way or another.
Is it goo v2? Is it just a matter of dosage and transmission method? Are we actually looking at two entirely different substances? Did every jar have something different in it?
The film makes no effort to say. It just moves from one set pieces to the next, powered by Liquid Plot
TM.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 25, 2024, 05:37:09 PMBuilding Better Worlds actually states that the Naiad/Trilobite (big tentacled facehugger-type thing in Prometheus) is usually spawned by Ovomorph-like pods dubbed "Womb-bats" as part of the Living Proto-Hive.
The way Shaw is infected by Holloway in Prometheus is an alternate method of creating it; this latter form is known as the "Zygote" or "eye-worm".
So the pathogen, ah, finds a way.
It's the same thing mostly, the Womb bats are impregnated humans turned into weird pod things. So Shaw without an added transformation.
I like the RPG a lot, but trying to make those very very specific creatures into generic ones that can spawn from a lot of circumstances feels wrong to me. Partly cause besides the Neomorph, I don't like the other Pathogen creatures, but also because it kinda doesn't make sense to me. But it's there now...
Also hate that the RPG confirmed that there are different strains of the Pathogen. It opens the Pandora's box even more for no need of consistency across the Pathogen effects. I hope the future movies/shows don't use the Pathogen ever again, permanently, but if they do, that they never go the rout that there are different versions that can do whatever.
Quote from: SM on Jan 25, 2024, 10:24:33 PMAbsolutely true. It's in the RPG so it must be. It's called a spermworm. Probably.
Do you have something against the RPG? It's far from perfect but it's trying at least. Trying to tie as many things together as possible. It already influenced a few books and games. I know it won't probably ever influence the future movies and series and that it will probably be contradicted by either the upcoming show or movie, but it's trying something as of now.
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2024, 06:23:25 AMFifield didn't have acid blood.
I don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown. But in your reply SM, marrerom there meant that Fifield got acid on his helmet and was burnt through. That wasn't his blood, that was from the Hammerped attack, that's what he meant.
But why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?
Why was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?
the person who wrote most of the initial episodes for lost(tv series) also wrote the shooting script for prometheus. it s supposed to not make sense or have answers. scott didn't bring lindelof in. that was fox s decision.
QuoteDo you have something against the RPG? It's far from perfect but it's trying at least. Trying to tie as many things together as possible. It already influenced a few books and games. I know it won't probably ever influence the future movies and series and that it will probably be contradicted by either the upcoming show or movie, but it's trying something as of now.
I do have something against the RPG but I'm not getting into that drama here. I think it got the tone right, some of the story lines are pretty cool, the artwork is absolutely brilliant, and I have the utmost respect for Tomas Harenstam. However it suffers from a severe lack of quality control in terms of lore and blithely cramming as much old EU stuff in as possible.
QuoteI don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown. But in your reply SM, marrerom there meant that Fifield got acid on his helmet and was burnt through. That wasn't his blood, that was from the Hammerped attack, that's what he meant.
I was referencing this post. Perhaps I misconstrued.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 05:43:10 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 05:21:30 AMWe don't see anything turn into Alien/Deacon hybrids. Fifield turns into a lumpy, gooey mess. The worms turn into cobras.
The only way they look like hybrids is if we start from the position they're hybrids and work backwards.
It's an interesting theory, but it's not in the film at all.
By hybrid, I mean they were infected with Alien/Deacon DNA. The worms got acid blood, and I mean, just look at what Holloway's mutated sperm resulted in.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 12:13:18 AMBut why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?
Not every infected organism gets the same exact traits or has the same results. The Neomorphs didn't have acid blood either.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 12:13:18 AMWhy was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?
The Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was
much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full.
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jan 26, 2024, 12:08:05 AMI don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown.
I
am saying that both liquids are the same.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 26, 2024, 01:14:15 AMThe Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full.
No, you just said it was successive generations -- why is it decaying zombies for one but fully formed for the other?
QuoteI am saying that both liquids are the same.
You've been arguing that what we see in the structure is what comes
out of the Engineer at the beginning, not what goes
in -- goo that has interacted with a host organism and then returned to goo, not pure goo.
If they're both the same thing then none of what you've argued has made sense, as the Engineer should have the same mutation reaction as the others, not break into pieces.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 01:43:47 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 26, 2024, 01:14:15 AMThe Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full.
No, you just said it was successive generations -- why is it decaying zombies for one but fully formed for the other?
Fifield and Holloway are not "decaying zombies". They are infected and undergoing mutation. They both are killed
before that process is completed.
You can look at the alternate Mutant Fifield design in Prometheus to get an idea of what a he would have looked like as a more "finished product". You can also look at the sketches David made of Engineers going through the same process, with one even developing an inner jaw.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 01:43:47 AMYou've been arguing that what we see in the structure is what comes out of the Engineer at the beginning, not what goes in -- goo that has interacted with a host organism and then returned to goo, not pure goo.
If they're both the same thing then none of what you've argued has made sense, as the Engineer should have the same mutation reaction as the others, not break into pieces.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:21:23 AMThere is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film. Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.
I look forward to what the new movie brings, and seeing what Hawley ends up doing with his tv show too. But if I don't like them, I certainly won't let either of them detract from the way I view the original movie, that's for sure. I just won't bother re-watching them if I'm not keen on how things pan out, simple as that.
No matter what Ridley or anyone else involved in this franchise comes up with retrospectively, my own ALIEN 'mythos' will always retain the mysteries that were in place when I first watched the original movie - where alien eggs of unknown origin were discovered along with the skeletal remains of a larger alien of equally otherworldly, mysterious origin. A self-contained cinematic classic, which left those particular questions unanswered, and was the more unsettling for it.
ALIEN (Theatrical cut), ALIENS (Special Edition) and ALIEN 3 (15MaF's fan edit of it, at least) make up my own preferred 'canon' where Ripley's journey is concerned when it comes to a re-watch, while I completely ignore ALIEN RESURRECTION and the AVP storylines altogether nowadays as merely being 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' kind of scenarios.
And I consider PROMETHEUS and ALIEN COVENANT as yet another couple of 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' storylines too, due to my disliking Ridley choosing to turn the skeletal remains of the 'space jockey' alien into a 'spacesuit' contraption for a humanoid 'Engineer' instead....and having a human-created android create the alien using 'black, magic goo'. Neither of which I agree with. At all.
While I really dislike how ALIEN COVENANT turned out, there's enough elements I happen to like about PROMETHEUS itself to give it an 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' re-watch in future - there's a couple of decent fan edits of it available which improve things for me, although I'd want to re-edit things in a specific way for myself to delay the introduction of the Engineers to keep their appearance a mystery until later in the movie, and expand on Shaw's fate to give the movie a more complete, self-contained outcome overall.
So after the initial 20th Century Fox title and fanfare, my ideal opening would begin with younger Weyland's TED talk, and as the sound of his audience fades, I'd continue directly to the Prometheus ship travelling silently across the vastness of space as we are eventually introduced to David and the rest of the crew soon after. I'd make other individual trims to improve some of the dodgier moments along the way, and I'd also include certain deleted scenes too.
As far as the ending goes, I'd want to have Shaw and David fly off for the Engineer's home planet with her warning voice-over as usual, as we then see the birth of the Deacon before it roars in close-up as we fade to silence....except this would then be followed by a re-edited version of the 'Crossing' footage as we then see the Juggernaut travelling in space and hear David's voice-over describe their progress, as we then see Shaw re-attach his head, then set course in the control room, then put Shaw in hypersleep, then stalk the ship as he says "And then I was alone again....I learned of their ways and awaited our arrival...." Then I'd cut to the entire sequence in COVENANT showing the ship arriving and David dropping the 'goo bombs' on the writhing population as we end on him saying "Look on my works ye mighty....and despair...." At this point, I'd then conclude things with a shorted re-edit of the 'Advent' footage showing what happened to Shaw - so some interference static would crackle, as we then hear a female voice say "Weyland Yutani protocol sequence initiated....commence transmission", as David contacts the company with his description of Shaw's horrific fate and what he's been experimenting on for a long time....and I'd end things on the footage of something slowly moving inside an open egg as we hear David say "It took years....but I finally found my wolf....", before cutting to blackness as we then hear him announce "....My creatures shall be let loose....to rule this galaxy!", as the transmission static breaks up and the Weyland-Yutani Corp logo briefly appears with the words 'End Transmission', as we then briefly see a close-up of David's eye, before the static interference cuts off to silence.
So yeah, I could go with simply imagining that this unstable David has 'somehow' been capable of contacting 'the Company' at the end of PROMETHEUS instead - not to 'offer an olive branch' to them, but rather declaring that this is the way that things are going to be now! ;D
By 'extending' the end of PROMETHEUS in the way I've described above, the 'Crossing' footage/dialogue allows a way for me to actually SEE Shaw re-connecting David's head back to his body, before piloting the Juggernaut together. And by adding the complete 'goo bombing' scene from ALIEN COVENANT, I also get to see what the Juggernaut is capable of, as well as what the Engineer's 'Paradise' home world looks like, without watching the sequel. And most of all, I still get to see Shaw's storyline wrapped up - she died 'offscreen' in ALIEN COVENANT anyway, and the 'Advent' footage/dialogue gives things an even sharper edge to her fate....as well giving a little more insight into what the 'black goo' is.
For those that readily embrace Ridley's prequel ideas, then you at least have the mystery of the 'black goo's actual origin to ponder I guess. That, and the headscratching question of why the stuff seems to produce such inconsistent results throughout both movies! I'll just look on it as being a totally unstable and unpredictable substance from moment to moment - so the effects of it's use will always end up varying wildly, no matter the amount involved.
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 26, 2024, 06:50:23 AMFifield and Holloway are not "decaying zombies". They are infected and undergoing mutation. They both are killed before that process is completed.
We have no idea if Fifield will mutate any further.
QuoteYou can look at the alternate Mutant Fifield design in Prometheus to get an idea of what a he would have looked like as a more "finished product". You can also look at the sketches David made of Engineers going through the same process, with one even developing an inner jaw.
Not in the movie!
QuoteQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:21:23 AMThere is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film. Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.
Bolded the part where you're explaining it's not exactly the same thing. It's a
processed version, which now apparently has new properties. You said the Engineer took pure goo and what we see later is processed goo.
Sometimes you just need to go processed. Organic can be so expensive.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMThe trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
One of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.
Quote from: SM on Jan 25, 2024, 12:20:11 AMIt needed some limitations.
It would have helped so much had there been actual rules and definitions of what it did. :'(
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 12:30:37 AMIt needed its own franchise.
I've always been happy with the black goo being a part of the franchise in it (sometimes) creating Alien-like creatures. It felt like a good fit to me there. Someone mentioned earlier - Kimmy?? - that it's just a cinematic royal jelly which is something I've said before as well. So it was something I was already used to in that regard.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 25, 2024, 06:58:58 PMI also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.
This bugged me so much about the depiction of the Neomorphs in Fireteam Elite. >:(
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:02:56 AMBut you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.
To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.
I know the point of the conversation has been whether or not the movie actually gave the audience a consistant black goo (it didn't) but I do enjoy the post-release EU attempting to reconcile it, or fan theories doing the same and I really enjoyed what you said in this entire post Acid_Reign.
I see a lot of seemingly silly or unrealistic things in films that I have seen actually happen in reality (in the corporate/I.T world) and I love those really unusual elements that people might not expect to have basis in reality. So I really enjoyed and appreciated your examples here!
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 07:27:25 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 26, 2024, 06:50:23 AMFifield and Holloway are not "decaying zombies". They are infected and undergoing mutation. They both are killed before that process is completed.
We have no idea if Fifield will mutate any further.
Sure, I guess. The movie doesn't
definitively say either way. Its sequel and Advent do give more info though.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 07:27:25 AMQuoteYou can look at the alternate Mutant Fifield design in Prometheus to get an idea of what he would have looked like as a more "finished product". You can also look at the sketches David made of Engineers going through the same process, with one even developing an inner jaw.
Not in the movie!
I know! :laugh: Prometheus leaves the audience with many loose threads.
We agree on that. But its sequel does address some of them.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 07:27:25 AMQuote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 03:21:23 AMThere is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film. Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.
Bolded the part where you're explaining it's not exactly the same thing. It's a processed version, which now apparently has new properties. You said the Engineer took pure goo and what we see later is processed goo.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood what
Still Collating... meant.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 12:13:18 AMBut why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?
Why was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?
Cause Plot Goo. I do agree it's ridiculosly inconsistent even in the least inconsistent depiction of the Pathogen. Like Hicks said, if it was just a movie version of the Royal Jelly, I'd be okay with that. The problem is that that isn't the case. The prequels barely fit into that idea and Alex White nudged it more in that direction which was a breath of fresh air. But the comics, novels and games said "to hell with that"...
Rules and clear effects. Consistency. As an example, anime use crazy plot devices/powers all the time and the best ones demonstrate clear rules, effects and consistency.
I don't get how writers get excited by the idea of "my plot goo can do anything I want" (using the age old bland excuse of "a mystery is always more fun than explaining things") instead of "lets create an interesting story mechanic".
Damon Lindelof did a superb job on
Watchmen &
The Leftovers.
However, during his time in
PROMETHEUS, he was probably working in
'mystery box' mode. 👽👉👈
(https://i.ibb.co/drBfRvr/Picsart-24-01-27-00-02-58-723.jpg)
Btw, the worm in
Commander Shepard Holloway's eye was a mutated sperm?
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/S0eqb.gif)
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jan 27, 2024, 12:45:24 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2024, 12:13:18 AMBut why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?
Why was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?
Cause Plot Goo. I do agree it's ridiculosly inconsistent even in the least inconsistent depiction of the Pathogen. Like Hicks said, if it was just a movie version of the Royal Jelly, I'd be okay with that. The problem is that that isn't the case. The prequels barely fit into that idea and Alex White nudged it more in that direction which was a breath of fresh air. But the comics, novels and games said "to hell with that"...
Rules and clear effects. Consistency. As an example, anime use crazy plot devices/powers all the time and the best ones demonstrate clear rules, effects and consistency.
I don't get how writers get excited by the idea of "my plot goo can do anything I want" (using the age old bland excuse of "a mystery is always more fun than explaining things") instead of "lets create an interesting story mechanic".
And that's the sad thing, the black goo could have been a interesting story mechanic to be shown on screen instead of expanded universe to explain on the side. Prometheus had good ingredients but the chief was not cooking at all in this one.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 26, 2024, 09:06:35 AMOne of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.
I must confess, initially I was the same as you on this one, but I was more forgiving once seeing 'Covenant' as we did get some correlation; it appeared (to me) to demonstrate that when the pathogen adapts to an organisms reproductive system, hybridises and creates new forms; in Humans (delivered via sperm) in fungus (delivered via spores)- both organisms method of reproduction, the end result of each being not too dissimilar overall (deacon or neomorph). This is another reason I like to think the mural shows a source creature, and no matter what you do with it, it is so dominant that you will always eventually get a xeno-esque creature down the line from it one way or another (a lot like the Xenomorph; we've seen human hosts morphed into ovomorphs, and a queen lay ovomorphs, but it always gets there in the end, and the end result is always similar no matter how it gets there, or which host organism is used (human vs dog/ox for example still produces a xeno-form).
QuoteI know the point of the conversation has been whether or not the movie actually gave the audience a consistant black goo (it didn't) but I do enjoy the post-release EU attempting to reconcile it, or fan theories doing the same and I really enjoyed what you said in this entire post Acid_Reign.
I see a lot of seemingly silly or unrealistic things in films that I have seen actually happen in reality (in the corporate/I.T world) and I love those really unusual elements that people might not expect to have basis in reality. So I really enjoyed and appreciated your examples here!
Thank you, I'm glad to hear that! 😊 Truth be told, I try not to use many lab examples here on fear of coming across pretentious (or boring the hell out of people 🤣) But in truth (and going a little off topic a moment), we've *just* published a peer-reviewed paper on a topic not too dissimilar, highlighting anthropomorphic assumptions and complexities with bioassays in aquatic chemosensory research (it's in the latest edition of 'Frontiers in Ecology and Evolution') and part of the reasoning for that was there has been a lot of controversy in the science community lately with (long story short) two different teams basically accusing the others of falsifying results and that each others work cannot be reproduced (It got a bit nasty with lots of teams and universities taking sides and supporting one or the other). Our findings have been that actually, neither were wrong; there are just so many damn variables to consider, that in reality, it's almost *impossible* to reproduce another's work exactly in different lab settings.
Myself, I've had a similar experience; my research identified a sex-specific chemical we could use to trap an invasive crustacean. We tested it in the lab - it worked a dream. We tested it in the field - it worked a dream. The university put up the money and we secured an international patent, our partners in the US who are crying out for a solution have been waiting eagerly as we go into the product development stage...everything was great. I went to Portugal last year and decided to use it as an opportunity to grab more data. Same setup, same species, same conditions. It didn't work. They were terrified of it. Fearing the chemical hadn't survived the flight, I spent last year testing in the uk again, confirming everything was fine (worked perfect)... and planned another Portugal trip last September where I spent a month there testing. Once again, it didn't work, and the animals were burying/hiding from it.
I've checked every damn variable imaginable; pH, temperature, salinity, average crab size, ratio of males to females, diet, etc etc.. but for whatever reason, the same species in Portugal, does not respond the same way as the same species in the UK does to the cue. 😅 And on the surface, this makes no damn sense! Why the same chemical under the same conditions produces two totally different results - Especially when we know it's a sex cue, and both green crabs in the uk, and green crabs in Portugal will mate. Unfortunately, we can't say "this doesn't make sense" - that's what it does, we see that's what it does, so now we have to address the how/why and make logical sense of it (frustrating doesn't cover it, especially when I'm now in PhD write-up year and
now have the equivalent of a whole other PhD worth of testing to do to figure this out - argh!) 🤣
Going back to the pathogen in Prometheus/ Covenant, I confess, I do have the bad habit of approaching the fiction as if it's reality 😂 (which standing back and looking at the bigger picture must be annoying/frustrating to others) my starting point is usually "the movie shows this, so that's what it does.. so how does it do this?" And work backwards from there... perhaps I give the writers too much credit, but I always like to think there was some logic to their thinking when they put pen to paper, even if it's not explained. Of course, we all know this isn't always the case (egg on the Sulaco anyone? 🤣) but even in that situation- the movie shows an egg in the sulaco, so that is "fact" - my take is we now need to look at the available evidence and work out the most logical reasoning behind the "how" it got there; even if in the real-world was simply studio demands.
I only consider something a retcon if you have to actively change something. If it can be explained by simply interpreting what is provided on screen, or there's a suitable gap in the knowledge that leaves an opening for suggestion, I'm usually ok with that. 😊 And I think that's why I don't mind the diversity of the goo.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 26, 2024, 09:06:35 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMThe trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
One of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.
When you factor in Ridley's comments about the Engineers not being able to reproduce themselves anymore and experimenting with pro-creation, and the fact the Engineers and humans have identical DNA - it's not terribly specific.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 27, 2024, 04:20:51 PMThank you, I'm glad to hear that! 😊 Truth be told, I try not to use many lab examples here on fear of coming across pretentious (or boring the hell out of people 🤣) But in truth (and going a little off topic a moment), we've *just* published a peer-reviewed paper on a topic not too dissimilar, highlighting anthropomorphic assumptions and complexities with bioassays in aquatic chemosensory research (it's in the latest edition of 'Frontiers in Ecology and Evolution') and part of the reasoning for that was there has been a lot of controversy in the science community lately with (long story short) two different teams basically accusing the others of falsifying results and that each others work cannot be reproduced (It got a bit nasty with lots of teams and universities taking sides and supporting one or the other). Our findings have been that actually, neither were wrong; there are just so many damn variables to consider, that in reality, it's almost *impossible* to reproduce another's work exactly in different lab settings.
Myself, I've had a similar experience; my research identified a sex-specific chemical we could use to trap an invasive crustacean. We tested it in the lab - it worked a dream. We tested it in the field - it worked a dream. The university put up the money and we secured an international patent, our partners in the US who are crying out for a solution have been waiting eagerly as we go into the product development stage...everything was great. I went to Portugal last year and decided to use it as an opportunity to grab more data. Same setup, same species, same conditions. It didn't work. They were terrified of it. Fearing the chemical hadn't survived the flight, I spent last year testing in the uk again, confirming everything was fine (worked perfect)... and planned another Portugal trip last September where I spent a month there testing. Once again, it didn't work, and the animals were burying/hiding from it.
I've checked every damn variable imaginable; pH, temperature, salinity, average crab size, ratio of males to females, diet, etc etc.. but for whatever reason, the same species in Portugal, does not respond the same way as the same species in the UK does to the cue. 😅 And on the surface, this makes no damn sense! Why the same chemical under the same conditions produces two totally different results - Especially when we know it's a sex cue, and both green crabs in the uk, and green crabs in Portugal will mate. Unfortunately, we can't say "this doesn't make sense" - that's what it does, we see that's what it does, so now we have to address the how/why and make logical sense of it (frustrating doesn't cover it, especially when I'm now in PhD write-up year and
now have the equivalent of a whole other PhD worth of testing to do to figure this out - argh!) 🤣
I like a post that lets me pretend I'm a little bit smarter for having read it. ;D
I had an idea that the black goo may be a type of molecular AI, like a T-1000 but on a microscopic scale. So unlike real evolutionary forces that have no end-goal in mind, the goo has a specific agenda that may take several generations to achieve. The agenda will change depending on current circumstances. The goo would draw upon a database of past organisms it has encountered and formulate its strategy based on that, a bit like the shape-shifting alien in The Thing. This would account for the variability in its behaviour.
TC
Quote from: TC on Jan 28, 2024, 02:00:07 PMI had an idea that the black goo may be a type of molecular AI, like a T-1000 but on a microscopic scale. So unlike real evolutionary forces that have no end-goal in mind, the goo has a specific agenda that may take several generations to achieve. The agenda will change depending on current circumstances. The goo would draw upon a database of past organisms it has encountered and formulate its strategy based on that, a bit like the shape-shifting alien in The Thing. This would account for the variability in its behaviour.
TC
That is stated outright by David in
Advent.
Oh, that's too bad. I was going to file it away as potential for an original story.
Quote from: SM on Jan 27, 2024, 10:46:49 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 26, 2024, 09:06:35 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMThe trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
One of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.
When you factor in Ridley's comments about the Engineers not being able to reproduce themselves anymore and experimenting with pro-creation, and the fact the Engineers and humans have identical DNA - it's not terribly specific.
Fair point on the DNA similarities, but it was still a bit specific. A person infected with a minute amount of accelerant has to have sex with a sterile person. Maybe Shaw's sterility didn't factor into it, but as presented in the film - it's quite specific.
I do love the Jockey's being obsessed with reproduction, though. I remember that being one part of Original Sin I did genuinely enjoy.
Quote from: TC on Jan 28, 2024, 02:16:46 PMOh, that's too bad. I was going to file it away as potential for an original story.
;D👍
Spoiler
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCzhy.gif)
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMThe trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
No, the Trilobite was already a stage in the Protomorph life cycle millennia before the
Prometheus mission.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 28, 2024, 08:55:09 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMThe trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.
No, the Trilobite was already a stage in the Protomorph life cycle millennia before the Prometheus mission.
Kinda... the mural shows a face-hugging parasite with a resemblance to a trilobite, but its head-sized.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 28, 2024, 09:18:13 PMKinda... the mural shows a face-hugging parasite with a resemblance to a trilobite, but its head-sized.
According to
Heart of Darkness and
Building Better Worlds, the Trilobite was one of the Protomorphs created by the Fulfremmen and the Living Proto-Hive, and its size is consistent with the big one in
Prometheus. Maybe the version in the mural is the Naiad, which is the juvenile form.
The movies don't care.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 28, 2024, 02:12:21 PMQuote from: TC on Jan 28, 2024, 02:00:07 PMI had an idea that the black goo may be a type of molecular AI, like a T-1000 but on a microscopic scale. So unlike real evolutionary forces that have no end-goal in mind, the goo has a specific agenda that may take several generations to achieve. The agenda will change depending on current circumstances. The goo would draw upon a database of past organisms it has encountered and formulate its strategy based on that, a bit like the shape-shifting alien in The Thing. This would account for the variability in its behaviour.
TC
That is stated outright by David in Advent.
When does he state outright that it's like the Thing?
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Jan 28, 2024, 09:33:22 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 28, 2024, 09:18:13 PMKinda... the mural shows a face-hugging parasite with a resemblance to a trilobite, but its head-sized.
According to Heart of Darkness and Building Better Worlds, the Trilobite was one of the Protomorphs created by the Fulfremmen and the Living Proto-Hive, and its size is consistent with the big one in Prometheus. Maybe the version in the mural is the Naiad, which is the juvenile form.
Whilst I agree that's very interesting take (I really need to find the time to sit down and read the RPG, it's been sitting on my shelf an eternity!) and whilst I also hold my hands up and admit I'm probably the first to be guilty of reaching for the CMTM when fact checking something (habit I guess), I gotta agree with SiL on this one; the EU has very little baring (close to zero to be fair) on the movies. That doesn't make it any less fun to contemplate (I prefer Alan Dean Foster's novelisation of Covenant over the movie for example, though whilst I have brought it up to suggest others (in this case, the writer) have a shared interpretation/preference of how the Xenomorph was created, I couldn't/wouldn't use it as an actual argument as "this is what happened" as EU is simply licensed fanfiction that occasionally references/is referenced by other EU media. As this is the alien movies section, we cannot take anything the RPG offers as fact, just a cool "what if". 😊 The titan books series on the other hand, and the current video games, most likely do take the RPG into account, so that fits nice in their continuity. But for this discussion we have to go by what we do or don't see on screen (for better or worse).
Uh-oh
I'm catching up on this stuff on external sources which I love... But I'm also like.. who cares?
Quote from: SM on Jan 28, 2024, 10:42:51 PMWhen does he state outright that it's like the Thing?
He states that the pathogen is an AI.
He says it's a form of radical AI. That's not the same as saying it's outright like the Thing with some database of previous organisms it's encountered.
Quite the contrary- it "generates a unique reaction to every genome it encounters".
AI controlled genomes
BETTER: AI generated genomes.
Quote from: SM on Jan 29, 2024, 09:35:16 AMHe says it's a form of radical AI. That's not the same as saying it's outright like the Thing with some database of previous organisms it's encountered.
Quite the contrary- it "generates a unique reaction to every genome it encounters".
To be honest, I was really just focusing on the AI aspect of the discussion.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 27, 2024, 04:20:51 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 26, 2024, 09:06:35 AMOne of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.
I must confess, initially I was the same as you on this one, but I was more forgiving once seeing 'Covenant' as we did get some correlation; it appeared (to me) to demonstrate that when the pathogen adapts to an organisms reproductive system, hybridises and creates new forms; in Humans (delivered via sperm) in fungus (delivered via spores)- both organisms method of reproduction, the end result of each being not too dissimilar overall (deacon or neomorph). This is another reason I like to think the mural shows a source creature, and no matter what you do with it, it is so dominant that you will always eventually get a xeno-esque creature down the line from it one way or another (a lot like the Xenomorph; we've seen human hosts morphed into ovomorphs, and a queen lay ovomorphs, but it always gets there in the end, and the end result is always similar no matter how it gets there, or which host organism is used (human vs dog/ox for example still produces a xeno-form).
QuoteI know the point of the conversation has been whether or not the movie actually gave the audience a consistant black goo (it didn't) but I do enjoy the post-release EU attempting to reconcile it, or fan theories doing the same and I really enjoyed what you said in this entire post Acid_Reign.
I see a lot of seemingly silly or unrealistic things in films that I have seen actually happen in reality (in the corporate/I.T world) and I love those really unusual elements that people might not expect to have basis in reality. So I really enjoyed and appreciated your examples here!
Thank you, I'm glad to hear that! 😊 Truth be told, I try not to use many lab examples here on fear of coming across pretentious (or boring the hell out of people 🤣) But in truth (and going a little off topic a moment), we've *just* published a peer-reviewed paper on a topic not too dissimilar, highlighting anthropomorphic assumptions and complexities with bioassays in aquatic chemosensory research (it's in the latest edition of 'Frontiers in Ecology and Evolution') and part of the reasoning for that was there has been a lot of controversy in the science community lately with (long story short) two different teams basically accusing the others of falsifying results and that each others work cannot be reproduced (It got a bit nasty with lots of teams and universities taking sides and supporting one or the other). Our findings have been that actually, neither were wrong; there are just so many damn variables to consider, that in reality, it's almost *impossible* to reproduce another's work exactly in different lab settings.
Myself, I've had a similar experience; my research identified a sex-specific chemical we could use to trap an invasive crustacean. We tested it in the lab - it worked a dream. We tested it in the field - it worked a dream. The university put up the money and we secured an international patent, our partners in the US who are crying out for a solution have been waiting eagerly as we go into the product development stage...everything was great. I went to Portugal last year and decided to use it as an opportunity to grab more data. Same setup, same species, same conditions. It didn't work. They were terrified of it. Fearing the chemical hadn't survived the flight, I spent last year testing in the uk again, confirming everything was fine (worked perfect)... and planned another Portugal trip last September where I spent a month there testing. Once again, it didn't work, and the animals were burying/hiding from it.
I've checked every damn variable imaginable; pH, temperature, salinity, average crab size, ratio of males to females, diet, etc etc.. but for whatever reason, the same species in Portugal, does not respond the same way as the same species in the UK does to the cue. 😅 And on the surface, this makes no damn sense! Why the same chemical under the same conditions produces two totally different results - Especially when we know it's a sex cue, and both green crabs in the uk, and green crabs in Portugal will mate. Unfortunately, we can't say "this doesn't make sense" - that's what it does, we see that's what it does, so now we have to address the how/why and make logical sense of it (frustrating doesn't cover it, especially when I'm now in PhD write-up year and
now have the equivalent of a whole other PhD worth of testing to do to figure this out - argh!) 🤣
Going back to the pathogen in Prometheus/ Covenant, I confess, I do have the bad habit of approaching the fiction as if it's reality 😂 (which standing back and looking at the bigger picture must be annoying/frustrating to others) my starting point is usually "the movie shows this, so that's what it does.. so how does it do this?" And work backwards from there... perhaps I give the writers too much credit, but I always like to think there was some logic to their thinking when they put pen to paper, even if it's not explained. Of course, we all know this isn't always the case (egg on the Sulaco anyone? 🤣) but even in that situation- the movie shows an egg in the sulaco, so that is "fact" - my take is we now need to look at the available evidence and work out the most logical reasoning behind the "how" it got there; even if in the real-world was simply studio demands.
I only consider something a retcon if you have to actively change something. If it can be explained by simply interpreting what is provided on screen, or there's a suitable gap in the knowledge that leaves an opening for suggestion, I'm usually ok with that. 😊 And I think that's why I don't mind the diversity of the goo.
Thanks for the info. I have a little unfulfilled scientist in me, so I love hearing this. And this is exactly why I hate when someone says we shouldn't explore the Alien's biology, cause it would take away the mystery and make it less scary. When you can get exactly situations like you described which could be a great basis for a story. You try to learn and probe and understand. For every new bit of info, you get 2 new questions/mysteries. There's the true horror. You try and you try, you get pieces here and there, but you never can truly understand and predict the creatures.
But I guess writers just don't care enough about biology to go that rout often. That's why Scott Sigler's short was so brilliant and why Alex White's novels really struck a chord with me. They actually did some research and made the creature more compelling, made me want to know more.
Good worldbuilding is hard to come by. I mean, Ridley didn't care that his Engineers looked different in Covenant, made them look like poor Romans, and have one single relatively small city?! That's Paradise?! One Pathogen bombardment really got the whole planet sterilized? With no hints of how or why... The definition of anti-worldbuilding.
Is there going to be an elephant man or not?👀👉👈
(https://i.ibb.co/8zQ9sb5/360-F-286518064-B2-RHTi5-GNO19-Tyl5e-Mdk7z3543o-Li9-Fj.jpg)
No. If he's ignoring the prequels they won't muddy things with an SJ now that the average punter associates that with Prometheus, it'd just confuse people.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 02, 2024, 07:56:47 PMIs there going to be an elephant man or not?👀👉👈
https://i.ibb.co/8zQ9sb5/360-F-286518064-B2-RHTi5-GNO19-Tyl5e-Mdk7z3543o-Li9-Fj.jpg
I want as little explanation as possible. Find an egg in the crashed ship, and get cooking.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 02, 2024, 07:56:47 PMIs there going to be an elephant man or not?
Can you make a davidjockey AI image? 👀
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Feb 06, 2024, 07:06:18 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 02, 2024, 07:56:47 PMIs there going to be an elephant man or not?
Can you make a davidjockey AI image? 👀
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCRGc.gif)
I Duno...At lest not made be me, I foubd it on google🤓🙏
🙈🙈🙈🌌☮🤘
╱|、
(˚ˎ 。7
|、˜〵
じしˍ,)ノ
I want Thimothy Olyphant vs David Elephant >:(
I'll try both ^
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2024, 01:27:01 AMQuote from: skhellter on Jan 14, 2024, 01:24:00 AMif people check the quotes and replies. lots of people are hating this. lol
https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oKIPzLXQYb2Bn5PLG/giphy.gif
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Jan 14, 2024, 01:13:38 AMMuch like Star Wars, if I see a creative shit on the prequels I assume they're the most boring kind of nerd.
I'm definitely the most boring kind of nerd. I've been using the prequels as my personal toilet for going on 25 years now.
....
brainfarts~(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCRJd.gif)
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Feb 06, 2024, 07:06:18 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 02, 2024, 07:56:47 PMIs there going to be an elephant man or not?
Can you make a davidjockey AI image? 👀
(https://i.ibb.co/p1qqRwJ/Screenshot-20240208-220615-Gallery.jpg)
Thank you Mr.Jones :laugh:
#canon
I've never minded the idea of him in one of the Engineer suits, or using their technology. I like the visual tbf.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:49:29 AMI've never minded the idea of him in one of the Engineer suits, or using their technology. I like the visual tbf.
But how about him and one of those suits fuzing together, via some (potentially black goo-enabled) Engineer-hybridization process that leaves David as something of a
biomecchanical being? One maybe... grafted to a chair, at that?
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 09, 2024, 11:52:14 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:49:29 AMI've never minded the idea of him in one of the Engineer suits, or using their technology. I like the visual tbf.
But how about him and one of those suits fuzing together, via some (potentially black goo-enabled) Engineer-hybridization process that leaves David as something of a biomecchanical being? One maybe... grafted to a chair, at that?
No! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 09, 2024, 11:52:14 AMBut how about him and one of those suits fuzing together, via some (potentially black goo-enabled) Engineer-hybridization process that leaves David as something of a biomecchanical being? One maybe... grafted to a chair, at that?
The 26 Draconis strain of the pathogen actually can affect synthetics and turn them into biomechanoids, so there would be precedent for that.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 09, 2024, 11:52:14 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:49:29 AMI've never minded the idea of him in one of the Engineer suits, or using their technology. I like the visual tbf.
But how about him and one of those suits fuzing together, via some (potentially black goo-enabled) Engineer-hybridization process that leaves David as something of a biomecchanical being? One maybe... grafted to a chair, at that?
No! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
I wouldn't mind the idea as a what if-kinda comic/graphic novel.🤓
It's called Fire and Stone.
I want Giger dark and gritty porn, instead of the Kenner-like Comic relief from Fire & Stone :'(👉👈
(https://i.ibb.co/hfLt02H/oo275xquh7f91-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BcVbPDM/pmfs3p2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cQZ9QLy/i-want-the-5a0c9e.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3S2Nsc9/images-72.jpg)
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCf9g.gif)
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCfmz.gif)
Something like David finding another type of Juggernaut older than the Engineer civilization. The ship is a black monolith from Odyssey 2001 with very advanced artificial intelligence. Once David sits in the chair, the ship engineers David and transforms him into a biomechanical avatar of the ship, which takes control of David's synthetic consciousness. The biomechanoid ship, David, the Space Jockey (David fused with the ship, becoming its pilot...and in a way a manifestation of the ship itself :D ).
(https://i.ibb.co/mDCpM2H/Picsart-24-02-09-18-42-37-184.jpg)
(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/SCf9f.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 09, 2024, 08:14:37 PMI want Giger dark and gritty porn
And I want elephant man. But we don't all get what we want, do we? >:(
Yep :'(👍
f**king Fire and Stone...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMNo! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Absolutely. David should have absolutely nothing to do with the downed ship on LV-426. I like to think the Jockey is a more ancient ancestor of the Engineer, or even their creator.
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Feb 10, 2024, 02:35:48 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMNo! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Absolutely. David should have absolutely nothing to do with the downed ship on LV-426. I like to think the Jockey is a more ancient ancestor of the Engineer, or even their creator.
Face it, it's David in that chair. You know it's true. So do I. There is no elephant man.
Jokes about David as the Space Jockey aside (though I'm sure if we did get "Awakening," that would have been the end result), I do think the most interesting way to reconcile the Engineers and the Space Jockey would be to keep them all as one race, and have the Engineers' pathogen-based biomechanical self-augmentation cover a wide range of spectrums. They're a race that is all about genetic modification and the creation/breakdown/recreation of life and the melding of biological and inorganic matter; the end results of their experiments don't have to be (and shouldn't be) totally uniform. The Space Jockey is/can be one radical extreme end result of that process.
Nah. From now on The Pathogen only creates Neomorphs, and only androids can manipulate it because of their immunity, and the Pilots, Titans, Ossians, Space Jockey whatever, actually created the Engineers.
(A question asked by Prometheus itself.)
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Feb 10, 2024, 02:55:42 AMNah. From now on The Pathogen only creates Neomorphs
With or without acid blood? 'Cos the Neomorphs in
Covenant don't have it, and the Neomorphs in
Inferno's Fall do.
Someone wasn't paying attention- or is this another "strain"?
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Feb 10, 2024, 02:35:48 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMNo! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Absolutely. David should have absolutely nothing to do with the downed ship on LV-426. I like to think the Jockey is a more ancient ancestor of the Engineer, or even their creator.
I think if davidjockey becomes a widely touted fan theory, it could actually pre-empt Ridley from doing this (assuming he ever gets to make a third prequel).
He'll seek out some other unexpected twist, rather than playing into something expected.
Quote from: SM on Feb 10, 2024, 09:17:31 AMSomeone wasn't paying attention- or is this another "strain"?
IT'S ANOTHER STRAIN!
Not paying attention it is.
Right you are.
Apparently the pathogen dumped on Shānmén was reverse-engineered by Deep Void from a recipe found on an Engineer ship.
"I don't think he gives a shit"
He sounds like a wise man for now.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Feb 10, 2024, 09:31:56 AMQuote from: Some Old Dude on Feb 10, 2024, 02:35:48 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMNo! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Absolutely. David should have absolutely nothing to do with the downed ship on LV-426. I like to think the Jockey is a more ancient ancestor of the Engineer, or even their creator.
I think if davidjockey becomes a widely touted fan theory, it could actually pre-empt Ridley from doing this (assuming he ever gets to make a third prequel).
He'll seek out some other unexpected twist, rather than playing into something expected.
Ridley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMThere were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David.
Whoa.... :o
The idea has been on the boards for years, but this makes it official!
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMRidley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/4aace2a332ffc431614f8bba423956ab/bce0fd36c84dd9e7-42/s540x810/39ee57b9574b206eeedcc7de7cd2e17966883054.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 14, 2024, 06:19:10 PMQuote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMThere were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David.
Whoa.... :o
The idea has been on the boards for years, but this makes it official!
IIRC I think this was talked about somewhere else recently as well. I want to say it was in the podcast with the guys involved with the AVP anime, where they revealed that Ridley's third prequel was to be titled "Alien: Destiny."
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMQuote from: The Eighth Passenger on Feb 10, 2024, 09:31:56 AMQuote from: Some Old Dude on Feb 10, 2024, 02:35:48 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 09, 2024, 11:53:40 AMNo! Bad NA! He can be in the suit. He can be in a chair. But he cannot be in THE chair. It's not allowed.
Absolutely. David should have absolutely nothing to do with the downed ship on LV-426. I like to think the Jockey is a more ancient ancestor of the Engineer, or even their creator.
I think if davidjockey becomes a widely touted fan theory, it could actually pre-empt Ridley from doing this (assuming he ever gets to make a third prequel).
He'll seek out some other unexpected twist, rather than playing into something expected.
Ridley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
@Corporal Hicks ☝️🤣
That's not to say if it went further into production that things would have changed. But the initial story layouts had David connecting to the derelict. Some folks could have told Ridley to back off on that idea if it had more time to marinate. But they cut down the 3rd entry and Blomkamp's production in pretty close time frame. Not exactly the same day or month or anything, but the Alien movie projects before the buyout all kind of shut down around a close window of time.
It was mostly Fox who shut it all down after the lack of performance of Prometheus and Covenant, but we already know all about that.
And for that, I must thank Fox from the bottom of my heart ;D
If we never get to see Ridley's wild ride seen through to its end properly on screen, then I would love nothing more than to have that "Destiny" script/treatment leak.
I'd like something graphic based on the unmade prequel.
(https://i.ibb.co/F7CTb89/3002528.jpg)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 14, 2024, 09:45:06 PMI'd like something graphic based on the unmade prequel.
https://i.ibb.co/F7CTb89/3002528.jpg
If they can get a good artist on it, I'd settle for something like that.
Thank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
I hope it won't be the case with this show. I am genuinely curious about it.
Quote from: razeak on Feb 15, 2024, 02:16:59 PMThank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
People will be saying the same about Blomkamp project whenever we can get that info out there.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 15, 2024, 06:13:14 PMQuote from: razeak on Feb 15, 2024, 02:16:59 PMThank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
People will be saying the same about Blomkamp project whenever we can get that info out there.
The alien suit thing Ripley had on set off my alarm bells. I would love to know what else was going on with the direction of that project. I'm not totally against a retcon, or totally for one, but after distancing myself from it for a few years, the concept art was a mixed bag.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 15, 2024, 06:13:14 PMQuote from: razeak on Feb 15, 2024, 02:16:59 PMThank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
People will be saying the same about Blomkamp project whenever we can get that info out there.
I'm already saying that, so I can't wait to hear those details.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMRidley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
I've been arguing for years that there's no way Ridley could do something so stupid...
Maybe we really did dodge a bullet, but I still want closure of some kind on David and the Covenant crew.
They said they were always going to tie the Prometheus arc to Alien at some point.
Quote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 05:41:36 AMThey said they were always going to tie the Prometheus arc to Alien at some point.
Scott also said he wanted to move away from it.
Yeah for it to be parallel with Alien, I think said during Furious Gods or the commentary track.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 16, 2024, 05:52:25 AMQuote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 05:41:36 AMThey said they were always going to tie the Prometheus arc to Alien at some point.
Scott also said he wanted to move away from it.
Initially, but as far as I know it would always end up linking to Alien in the end (by about film four I think he said at one point).
Just watched the first episode of Fargo's season 5. Hawley's writing and direction was a nice personal reminder of why I think the Alien series is in very good hands.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Feb 16, 2024, 07:46:01 AMYeah for it to be parallel with Alien, I think said during Furious Gods or the commentary track.
That was the thing that Lindelof wanted to do with the prequels and it's why he changed the planet in Prometheus. To have it just be its own story, parallel to Ripley's, never tying directly to Alien or LV426.
Ridley changed his mind.
Quote from: skhellter on Feb 16, 2024, 05:28:42 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Feb 16, 2024, 07:46:01 AMYeah for it to be parallel with Alien, I think said during Furious Gods or the commentary track.
That was the thing that Lindelof wanted to do with the prequels and it's why he changed the planet in Prometheus. To have it just be its own story, parallel to Ripley's, never tying directly to Alien or LV426.
Ridley changed his mind.
Just yesterday I was reading and remembering a thread of 2011 when Ridley said that they were taking a new route with Prometheus and it hasn't anything to do with Alien. Man, everyone was losing his mind that day 😅 it's funny reading it now
Quote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 09:03:50 AMQuote from: SiL on Feb 16, 2024, 05:52:25 AMQuote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 05:41:36 AMThey said they were always going to tie the Prometheus arc to Alien at some point.
Scott also said he wanted to move away from it.
Initially, but as far as I know it would always end up linking to Alien in the end (by about film four I think he said at one point).
But would the Jockey Morph have bursted out of David? Is he compatible?
Dunno. They never got that far in revealing the narrative.
Quote from: Nukiemorph on Feb 16, 2024, 05:13:01 AMQuote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 15, 2024, 06:13:14 PMQuote from: razeak on Feb 15, 2024, 02:16:59 PMThank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
People will be saying the same about Blomkamp project whenever we can get that info out there.
I'm already saying that, so I can't wait to hear those details.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMRidley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
I've been arguing for years that there's no way Ridley could do something so stupid...
Maybe we really did dodge a bullet, but I still want closure of some kind on David and the Covenant crew.
The irony. Alien turned male rape fear on its head to f**k men's psychology. Convenant turned Alien on its head to f**k Alien. Lol.
I've said it before, in a vacuum, I like Covenant. I just don't want it to water Alien down IMO. I'll pass on closure if we can not further molest Alien.
Quote from: razeak on Feb 18, 2024, 02:03:47 AMI've said it before, in a vacuum, I like Covenant.
I enjoy all the films and a lot of the EU like that. The Trilogy is my only "canon".
Quote from: skhellter on Feb 16, 2024, 05:28:42 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Feb 16, 2024, 07:46:01 AMYeah for it to be parallel with Alien, I think said during Furious Gods or the commentary track.
That was the thing that Lindelof wanted to do with the prequels and it's why he changed the planet in Prometheus. To have it just be its own story, parallel to Ripley's, never tying directly to Alien or LV426.
Imagine a
Prometheus sequel happening literally at the same time as
Alien, with everything and retro technology...only focused on "the new monsters" and Engineers.
Before anyone says "I want Aliens in my Aliens movies"... ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/HFGzhSB/5273232155c89.jpg)
Ridley was also touting the "same universe, different trajectory" bit around the time of Prometheus' release, until that suddenly shifted gears towards a full fledged Alien prequel during the prep of "Alien: Paradise Lost."
And the rest, as they say, is history. History that has landed its eternal place as the text in @𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯's signature, at that.
It's not just aliens we wanted. We wanted beautiful Ridley Scott cinematography (check), a good score (check), good writing (yikes), good acting (check) smart characters (double yikes), no main characters dying off before the opening credits (triple yikes) and probably some mystery to the creature (was mostly intact in Prometheus, not Covenant). Undercooked stories and dumb characters weigh the two movies down in the worst way. David is legitimately great IMO, I must admit. If he sucked, I wouldn't be torn.
I wonder if at the time although it was an Alien prequel in all but name that Ridley & or the production team deliberately promoted Prometheus as not being so, just in order to alleviate the pressure & scrutiny of public expectation of being framed as a direct prequel to the OT
Failed at that sure but the vagaries had a purpose
Quote from: Wweyland on Feb 17, 2024, 12:40:22 PMQuote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 09:03:50 AMQuote from: SiL on Feb 16, 2024, 05:52:25 AMQuote from: SM on Feb 16, 2024, 05:41:36 AMThey said they were always going to tie the Prometheus arc to Alien at some point.
Scott also said he wanted to move away from it.
Initially, but as far as I know it would always end up linking to Alien in the end (by about film four I think he said at one point).
But would the Jockey Morph have bursted out of David? Is he compatible?
I'm sure this came up when we spoke to Seanan McGuire about her wanting to do this in Echo but being told no, but not because it didn't work. I need to relisten to that podcast.
Viola (or Jill) was originally partly organic. I dug out my notes to Steve T and said it could be a tough sell to have cybernetic Aliens, but if Seanan could pull off Viola being partly organic, it might work. The problem was the precedent set by Ash, Bishop, David etc. being 100% artificial. I suspect Seanan may have just assumed all Alien robots were partly organic.
I mentioned Elden, but ultimately they went with Viola being all artificial.
I like my Synths being completely non organic. For the completely organic ones, you have BR. Half-half makes no sense to me unless it's Westworld.
Completely non organic robots that seem human is the point to me. What does it say about us and our minds/souls if you can make a robot mind that's the same as ours? There was potential in exploring that in the Prequels with David. More in Prometheus than in Covenant, still squandered in both. A movie with David in a room being tested on how indistinguishable form a human he is I would gladly watch (though I know that's a niche and Westworld already did some interesting things with it).
Were there any more leaks that came out? I haven't been in this website for a long time.
Not that much more as of right now. For the next movie on the other hand, there are plenty.
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Mar 16, 2024, 11:43:02 PMWere there any more leaks that came out? I haven't been in this website for a long time.
Nope, the biggest bit of news is still Tootles.
Quote from: razeak on Feb 18, 2024, 02:03:47 AMQuote from: Nukiemorph on Feb 16, 2024, 05:13:01 AMQuote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 15, 2024, 06:13:14 PMQuote from: razeak on Feb 15, 2024, 02:16:59 PMThank you Fox for slamming the door shut, at least temporarily, on desecrating the first film. It was abused enough.
People will be saying the same about Blomkamp project whenever we can get that info out there.
I'm already saying that, so I can't wait to hear those details.
Quote from: Mike's Monsters on Feb 14, 2024, 06:13:43 PMRidley was definitely heading towards David being in the Jockey suit we see in ALIEN. There were drafts of his 3rd film put together, and my understanding from the folks in the know is he was planning on tying the derelict from ALIEN to David. Like it or not, they were trying to connect it all.
I've been arguing for years that there's no way Ridley could do something so stupid...
Maybe we really did dodge a bullet, but I still want closure of some kind on David and the Covenant crew.
The irony. Alien turned male rape fear on its head to f**k men's psychology. Convenant turned Alien on its head to f**k Alien. Lol.
I've said it before, in a vacuum, I like Covenant. I just don't want it to water Alien down IMO. I'll pass on closure if we can not further molest Alien.
The worst thing Covenant did was have the Alien in it. The fist two acts are great because they had two really cool new alien threats to explore that hinted just enough about the origins and biology of the xenomorph without giving anything specific away. But nah, they both got dragged out back and put down like sick dogs so we could get 20 minutes of nostalgia. Even the CG Xeno looks confused. Dude just kinda wanders around a ship bumping into shit before getting sent off into space.
Apparently Hawley doesn't seem to take the prequels as a big influence. I'm cautiously optimistic about all of this, although I'm equally confused about the whole project.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on Feb 10, 2024, 09:12:11 AMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Feb 10, 2024, 02:55:42 AMNah. From now on The Pathogen only creates Neomorphs
With or without acid blood? 'Cos the Neomorphs in Covenant don't have it, and the Neomorphs in Inferno's Fall do.
P. S. the first creatures seemed like classical Neos (the first scene with them is great), but the rest didn't just have acid blood, they had hard red shells, exoskeletons.... And nowhere in the novel is it shown that this is a "special" strain (the thought of having different strains is so stupid to me). If you create the classical XX121 Xeno variants with the Pathogen just like that, what's the point of huggers and the Queen? So that'll always be a huge no no for me. Unless Deep Void is "milking" about 3 billion facehuggers and storing it in jars, I can't buy such a story. I'm headcannoning that it's just Neos and their variants, just was retold poorly in some bar...
That novel had potential, then it fell away from a cliff top, in Fireteam Elite you can rationalise them working with incomplete data as far as Pathogen's affecting Aliens goes.
Not so with Inferno's Fall being so inconsistent.
I'm of two minds. I like the idea the Alien is a creature that has existed for millions of years. But even then an origin would still exist for them. It's just a matter if people want to see that and have the mystery completely intact.
I like what is said here, makes sense. Stick with what gave it atmosphere and ambience of the originals.
Quote from: Huntsman on Apr 20, 2024, 11:13:27 PMI'm of two minds. I like the idea the Alien is a creature that has existed for millions of years. But even then an origin would still exist for them. It's just a matter if people want to see that and have the mystery completely intact.
There's a chance that they could do something like - the black goo comes from the Alien, not the other way around. They would kinda close that loop nicely, where you get David making Aliens from Black goo, but also the Alien is still an Ancient creature.
Everyone's a winner !
But where all those jars in Prometheus would come from ? Alien mash ?
Jesus! I'm dying to know more about this project :'( give me anything. .a pic or something ::)🙏
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 25, 2024, 08:44:26 AMBut where all those jars in Prometheus would come from ? Alien mash ?
Yeah I mean why not, the Alien in the mural is already there.
That's not an Alien.
Not the 79 Alien, at least.
It's not any Alien. It's at best a Deacon.
Well, yes. "Alien" being a colloquial term. It's something with a pointy head, more closely related to the Deacon or Neomorph, rather than the XX121 variant.
If this is so close to
PROMETHEUS chronologically speaking, it makes me a little sad that Mr. Noah Hawley decided to ignore the prequels!?
🥀:'(
👉👈
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Sa2me.gif)
Ignoring the prequels is the path to elephant man.
oh!? 👏:o
....that would be beyond nice😍👉👈
I don't know that Scott would be on board with producing if story elements and timelines actually clashed with what's already been established by the prequels and sequels. Or maybe I'll eat my words when we finally get a concrete feel for what this project is. :-X
I just had a thought that maybe the prequels aren't helpful to Hawley because he's privy to Ridley's intent for the final prequel story.
I've always felt that David is creating what he thinks is a masterpiece - "perfection", only to not understand that what he's actually doing is recreating perfection. The same sentiment has been echoed many a time from other fans. Even Covenant's novelization, based on an earlier script implies this. David wants ONE thing: To create. His whole personality, behavior, everything motivating him is based off of his desire to do so.
"When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony, David."
When Walter corrects him in Covenant, David doesn't even acknowledge that he misspoke giving credit to Byron for writing Ozymandias when it was actually Shelley who created it.
David's symphony is the "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla". Playing it on the piano is the first thing he does when he's born and it's the same song he plays at the end of Covenant after his victory. He thinks himself a God. But his symphony is off.
I still think that at the time of Prometheus, the Derelict has already been crashed on LV-426 for 2000 years, keeping that part of the story intact and allowing the prequels to be the "parallel" stories everyone involved in making them has been saying since the inception of Prometheus.
The Engineers found the Aliens hundreds of thousands of years ago out in the galaxy somewhere and have since been using the their eggs to obtain the black goo/mutagen for the continuation of their own technologies and enhancements. The Derelict was headed to the science outposts on LV-223 to drop off its cargo of eggs so the Engineer scientists there could continue their work of harvesting the mutagen. Something went wrong and it made an emergency crash landing on the nearby LV-426.
Think about it. How do you destroy David? Sure, you can rip his head off and render him immobile. But his mind and everything he believes still remains. The more important question is "How do you defeat David?" You prove to him that he can't create. You take away the very thing he's spent so much of his time believing he's capable of. The thing that makes him think of himself as a God. He'd go haywire and overload just from the very thought of it.
Boom, established lore from the original quadrilogy is intact and Hawley gets to have his way with the HULU series.
I too have said I prefer to imagine David recreated / reverse engineered xenos from the pathogen...
But judging by Ridley's desires to put David in the Jockey chair, I'm going to take a wild guess that instead of rolling with the simplest option, it'd be something outlandish where the movie was going to end with him being defeated in the (soon to be) derelict on his way to Earth, by someone flying their ship into his sacrificing themselves (cause just like 3 lots of blowing a xeno out of an airlock, we'd have to have a repeat of Prometheus, right?) 🤣the derelict spiralling out of control into a natural space phenomena like a black hole.. as the g-forces kick in almost pulling the ship apart, David looks down as his chest starts convulsing, he smiles as a biomechanical burster pops... "The trick, Will Potter, is not minding that it hurts..." He lays back triumphant and the helmet closes around him. Final shot is the derelict spinning into temporal distortion ripping off the final shot of 'Event Horizon'... we're all supposed to be mind-blown that the Alien is both created by David recently, *and* Ancient by the time Alien happens, knowing it ends up crashing in LV-426 thousands of years in the past without showing it...
That's the kind of shit take I envision we'd have received. 🤣
Quote from: GrimmVision on May 03, 2024, 10:27:20 PMThe more important question is "How do you defeat David?" You prove to him that he can't create. You take away the very thing he's spent so much of his time believing he's capable of. The thing that makes him think of himself as a God. He'd go haywire and overload just from the very thought of it.
I think Ridley has already validated this idea.
At SXSW, while promoting Covenant, Ridley discussed AI and said:
QuoteCan you have a computer write a book? Or Write a screenplay? Or write a poem? It's always going to be very derivative and only based on what has been done in trillions of ways before.
https://movieweb.com/alien-covenant-director-cast-interview-scott-waterston-mcbride/ (https://movieweb.com/alien-covenant-director-cast-interview-scott-waterston-mcbride/)
Granted, I don't think he's talking about the Alien movies here and he's discussing Chat GPT-type stuff. But still, he's saying right here that AI would be incapable of true, honest creation.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on May 06, 2024, 06:29:17 PMI too have said I prefer to imagine David recreated / reverse engineered xenos from the pathogen...
But judging by Ridley's desires to put David in the Jockey chair, I'm going to take a wild guess that instead of rolling with the simplest option, it'd be something outlandish where the movie was going to end with him being defeated in the (soon to be) derelict on his way to Earth, by someone flying their ship into his sacrificing themselves (cause just like 3 lots of blowing a xeno out of an airlock, we'd have to have a repeat of Prometheus, right?) 🤣the derelict spiralling out of control into a natural space phenomena like a black hole.. as the g-forces kick in almost pulling the ship apart, David looks down as his chest starts convulsing, he smiles as a biomechanical burster pops... "The trick, Will Potter, is not minding that it hurts..." He lays back triumphant and the helmet closes around him. Final shot is the derelict spinning into temporal distortion ripping off the final shot of 'Event Horizon'... we're all supposed to be mind-blown that the Alien is both created by David recently, *and* Ancient by the time Alien happens, knowing it ends up crashing in LV-426 thousands of years in the past without showing it...
That's the kind of shit take I envision we'd have received. 🤣
See, I believe what you just described
is the simplest option for the last prequel. It's been theorized for seven years to the point that we all actually believe it's what Ridley is planning to do: That he has such a love for David that he's willing to put him into the infamous chair. Even though, to my knowledge, he's never alluded to doing so whatsoever. I just cannot see that happening. No one wants it. And I do think Scott's smarter than that.
He subverted expectations with
Prometheus. We expected something leading directly into
Alien. He did it again with
Covenant. We expected a story about Shaw and David. We expect he'll put David into the chair and make him the creator of the original Alien with the crew of the Covenant being the Derelict's eggs. We've had too long to think about this. And given that a final movie, even if it were green-lit today, would still be at least 3 or 4 years out, I'm positive he'll do something else from what we all expect.
Quote from: Nukiemorph on May 06, 2024, 07:48:35 PMQuote from: GrimmVision on May 03, 2024, 10:27:20 PMThe more important question is "How do you defeat David?" You prove to him that he can't create. You take away the very thing he's spent so much of his time believing he's capable of. The thing that makes him think of himself as a God. He'd go haywire and overload just from the very thought of it.
I think Ridley has already validated this idea.
At SXSW, while promoting Covenant, Ridley discussed AI and said:
QuoteCan you have a computer write a book? Or Write a screenplay? Or write a poem? It's always going to be very derivative and only based on what has been done in trillions of ways before.
https://movieweb.com/alien-covenant-director-cast-interview-scott-waterston-mcbride/ (https://movieweb.com/alien-covenant-director-cast-interview-scott-waterston-mcbride/)
Granted, I don't think he's talking about the Alien movies here and he's discussing Chat GPT-type stuff. But still, he's saying right here that AI would be incapable of true, honest creation.
^ YES! I agree. Scott's left us little interview clues here and there for years that all this is leading to him saying AI cannot authentically create, and that what AI
does create is simply derivative. There's absolutely no point to Scott's comments in that interview if that's not what he's attempting to say in David's relation to the Alien.
Scott
shows it in
Covenant. David states he created perfection with the Praetomorph. That derivative, non-biomechanical Alien immediately fails and even gets distracted and attacks a non-lifeform, the cargo lifter's giant clawed crane, instead of just going straight for Daniels. The Queen in
Aliens knew that it needed to get to the
operator of the Power Loader, and not bother with the Power Loader itself. David's Alien was terrifying and animalistic, albeit imperfect.
Also, given that LV-223 and LV-426 both orbit Calpamos, it's wildly messy storytelling to have David backtrack all the way to that planetary system for the third movie just for him to then crash land on LV-426.
Prometheus and
Covenant both opened with flashbacks and I can already envision the third prequel opening with a flashback 2000 years ago of a lone Engineer checking his stockpile of Alien eggs, putting them into stasis for the journey to LV-223. Something goes wrong or he makes a mistake and gets a little too close and he's ultimately facehugged. He wakes up and gets himself into the chair and as the Derelict enters Calpamos' orbit, he's chestbursted and the Derelict falls to LV-426's surface. Cut to crazy David on the Covenant still headed to Origae-6 thinking he's God ;D
Alien hasn't broken on-screen continuity for 45 years. Not to the point where it makes other mainline entries null. For Hawley to come out of no where with the first ever
Alien series and decide to break the universe's established lore is crazy to me. Hawley didn't say he'd step on anyone's toes. He just said the prequels aren't useful to his project. That's why I believe Hawley knows what Ridley is up to, especially since Scott's producing.
Might I suggest my own piece I did on all this a couple years back
@Nukiemorph @GrimmVision https://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/alien-covenant/alien-creation-controversy/
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 08, 2024, 08:20:53 AMMight I suggest my own piece I did on all this a couple years back @Nukiemorph @GrimmVision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YypOJvThyqk
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/alien-covenant/alien-creation-controversy/
Great video Corporal; your end thoughts definitely mirror mine.
Thank you! Certainly a touchy subject, but not one we can't avoid!
I'm going with the RPG on this one - David created a variant of the Xenomorph, and NOT the genuine article.
Plus, Building Better Worlds outright states that the Engineers made the true Xeno - in one mission, a number of escaped Xenos were formerly exhibited in the Gallery of the Ages on planet Aljanna along with a proto-human, an Arcturian, and several Fulfremmen mutations.
God I miss the days when you don't needed someone to have made the Xeno...
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on May 08, 2024, 07:02:53 PMGod I miss the days when you don't needed someone to have made the Xeno...
Yup! I used to have fun imagining what kind of environment such a creature would evolve in... I always pictured a small planetoid on an large elliptical orbit like Senda in our solar system; Dark, cold, lifeless for centuries, until its orbit brings it close to its sun, and suddenly everything awakens from hibernation, and the world flourishes for a few decades; prey species fall host to ovomorphs, hives are established in deeper areas close to the natural warmth of molten magmar, and everything is done to prepare the next batch of eggs for the next cycle... as the planetoid drifts away from the sun again/becomes darker and colder, prey species hibernate, and the eggs lay dormant for centuries until the next full orbit. (That's how I pictured it as a kid) 😅
And they were discovered by elephant man?
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 09, 2024, 12:35:04 AMAnd they were discovered by elephant man?
The good 'ol days. 😂
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on May 09, 2024, 12:31:24 AMmagmar
The Pokémon?
(https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/img/pokedex/full//126.png)
Is that a ballsack on his forehead ?
I was always partial to them being bioengineered weapons...but by the Jockeys. Don't get me wrong, I do genuinely enjoy a lot of the thematic elements around David doing it...but I never minded the idea the Jockeys did it.
Quote from: Slutty Badger on May 09, 2024, 08:07:04 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on May 09, 2024, 12:31:24 AMmagmar
The Pokémon?
https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/img/pokedex/full//126.png
LOL... How else do you think the xeno gets its new head shape in Romulus? It uses Magmar as a host! 😂
Quote from: Slutty Badger on May 09, 2024, 08:07:04 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on May 09, 2024, 12:31:24 AMmagmar
The Pokémon?
https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/img/pokedex/full//126.png
I noticed that R immediately too but went to this version:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ugg9SsM2L.jpg)
Won me a lot of ghettomon matches haha
Prepare for trouble and make it double!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/skppRyDy2Ng/maxresdefault.jpg)
"To infect all worlds with desolation!"
"By revealing to the universe the perfect creation!"
"To denounce humanity's delusions of love"
"And let pathogen rain from the skies above!"
"David!" *strikes pose*
"Ash!" *pets hugger*
"Putting humanity in their place..."
".. We're Team Xeno.."
"HUGGIN' YOUR FACE!"
*both strike mega-pose as an M-class star freighter's engines detonate forming a giant letter 'X' on a backdrop of stars*
*chestburster drops between them, hisses and poses*
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on May 09, 2024, 10:04:41 AMPrepare for trouble and make it double!
Last time we saw him, David was BLASTING OFF AGAIN!