So, before 'Alien', did Weyland Yutani know of the creature?

Started by Nachtfalke, May 19, 2009, 01:57:30 AM

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So, before 'Alien', did Weyland Yutani know of the creature? (Read 12,644 times)

Kimarhi

Kimarhi

#30
Things to consider: If a tugship in itself was capable of partially decyphering an alien language, then surely the WY super computers could do much better.  

Ripley tells us, "It looks like a warning."

Remember, in the Alien universe information is sent instantaneously (or much faster than should be allowed) through the Network.  As soon as the probe sent the information back, WY would start translating the message.  And by the time the Nostromo crew was involved, they would already know what the message meant.

Hence if the message said, "stay the hell away, there are bitey things here that will kill you," then WY would want to see just how dangerous these bitey things are.  

The derelict is made by a totally unrelated alien species to the xenomorph.  Unless the transmission went into detail what the aliens looked like, they couldn't have know it would be THE ALIEN.  Just an alien.  Its a warning.  Not a nature documentary giving the physicals of the alien creature.  (I forget how long it repeats itself, but I seem to remember it being a short cycle, given human language, you dont get very descriptive in thirty second messages).

Its also assumption that Ash is a specialized android.  For all we know WY could've hacked him to suit the Nostromo mission.  He could've been just a standard android doing standard jobs before WY reprogrammed him.  It would explain him going completely batshit at the end of the film.  WY might've used him simply because a reprogrammed droid is still better than a human with a conscious who might betray their intentions, or get eaten before the speciman was secured.

Also, all we know about the end of AvP2, if you count the pos as canon, is the fact that the government knew about the Alien and the preds, and that Yutani knew about the preds.

We don't know Lex's story, or even if she made it back alive.  Don't know Weyland corporations involvement in it.  All we do know is Yutani got predator tech.

I also think since the Nostromo is WY property, and Thedus is probably in the network, WY just rerouted it from a distance by "hacking" it.

Its also funny that for the longest time I didn't understand that Special Order 937 happened at the BEGGINING of the film.  I thought it was a communication from WY after Ash had been going back and forth with the company and that Ash had finally convinced the company it was worth picking up.

Always thought the Nostromo being rerouted was happening at that moment.  That soon it'd land at a company base somewhere.

It wasn't until I found gamegossip I learned otherwise.

Remember, WY set up the colony thirty seven years after the original film.  The colony was there for twenty before the events of aliens.  That doesn't seem very hurried to me.

Burke was looking on his own imo.  If he wasn't, I imagine the company involvement in Acheron would be much higher.  When people with money want something, they usually get it.

As SM said, once WY had a full appreciation for the xeno, they went balls to the wall to try and obtain it.  

Expendable doesn't mean the crew HAS to die.  Just that their lives are secondary to the companies whims.

Nachtfalke

Ok. Whoa, now its getting too convoluted. No thanks to myself I must admit.
The original query was:

1. It could have been a standard protocol of Weyland Yutani that is activated if an Extra Terrestrial signal is intercepted.
2. Weyland Yutani are familiar with this signal and that is why the protocol exists.

Reasons for why its one or the other are endlessly debateable, until a film explains it.
So, whatever the events leading to it, I will go for option two.

SM

QuoteIf a tugship in itself was capable of partially decyphering an alien language, then surely the WY super computers could do much better. 

Absosmurfly

QuoteRemember, in the Alien universe information is sent instantaneously (or much faster than should be allowed) through the Network.

Not really.  The Nostromo couldn't hail Earth from the Z2R system and there was a two week turnaround for transmissions from Hadley to Gateway.  It was shown to be quicker in Alien3, though in all likelihood they were talking to the much closer rescue ship.

Quote(I forget how long it repeats itself, but I seem to remember it being a short cycle, given human language, you dont get very descriptive in thirty second messages).

Yeah, and since it's acoustical, it's unlikely to carry video data.

Quote(I forget how long it repeats itself, but I seem to remember it being a short cycle, given human language, you dont get very descriptive in thirty second messages).

Yup.  He programmed for science and since they need an ET specimen he's ideal to get close to it and protect it.  He's seems more specialised for science than espionage.

QuoteBurke was looking on his own imo.

He was and says so in the film.

Quote1. It could have been a standard protocol of Weyland Yutani that is activated if an Extra Terrestrial signal is intercepted.

Standard protocol, which Kane starts to explain before Parker gets stroppy and Ash is allowed to speak, is that they are obligated to investigate any transmission indicating intelligent origin.  That's standard for every WY starship crew, and failure to do so means you don't get paid.

Quote2. Weyland Yutani are familiar with this signal and that is why the protocol exists.

There is no protocol specific to the transmission - only Special Order 937.  Special meaning it's not standard procedure.  Which is made clear in the film.

Kimarhi

I didn't know about the two week turnaround, but its still much faster than normal.  Light takes 36 years to come from Zeta Reticuli.  Two weeks is blazing in comparison.

Still even if there is any delay, closer things being beamed makes more sense.

SM

SM

#34
QuoteI didn't know about the two week turnaround, but its still much faster than normal. 

Quite.

Simpson and Lydecker talk about how "it takes two weeks to get an answer out here" in the SE.

There may be a correlation between transmission and ship speeds with the Sulaco taking 3 weeks to cover what the Nostromo took 10 months (or would've taken).  So transmission hard/software may have been a lot slower in 2122 (possibly explaining how Ripley's final sign off took the better part of 60 years to reach Fiorina?)

walterf

walterf

#35
Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 04:03:44 AM

It's a massive leap to say this "organism" automatically equates "an 8 foot slavering black extraterrestrial that gestates inside a dude and was once briefly glimpsed on Earth 120 years earlier".

It's not that massive of a leap if you think about it. You're focusing on the wording they used, "organism" or "lifeform" but that is just terminology they used in the transmission. If WY happens to know what this being is or if they think they know what the being is, they're not going to type out  a description of it, they're still simply gonna call it an organism in the transmission.

Another thing to take into account is Ash's description of the creature after he was decapitated. He was admiring it, stating about how perfect the creature was, how it was the perfect organism with no conscious. You're telling me he had no breifing or information on the creature prior to Kane's incident? I doubt he would be able to admire the creature so much and speak of it being perfect with no conscious simply from the actions that took place upon the ship. He seemed to have been informed about the creature, perhaps had even researched information about it, it's origins, etc. From poking around the facehugger and knowing some people aboard the ship died, I doubt he'd be able to gain this knowledge and appreciation for the creature. Hell, I don't even think he witnessed it fully grown or killing anyone on the ship. He had to know a fair amount of background information on the creature ahead of time, which makes it logical that WY knew or "thought they knew" this transmission had to do with this specific creature.

All I'm trying to say is that this isn't really concrete and that we can come close to figuring out the exact situation, but we don't really know. I'm also not saying that WY DEFINITELY knew it was a Xenomorph on the planet, but its very possible they were betting on it being one or were hoping/thinking it was one. I think Ash already had information on it as well, if he had just been programmed to know about it from the past or was given information to know specifically for this task.

I know you said it's a stretch that by "organism" they meant a slobbering creature that they had a still of from almost a hundred years ago, but we also don't know if WY had gained more info on the creature or if they had encountered the Alien inbetween the events of AVPR and Alien. Nowhere is it stated that absolutely nothing happened involving WY and the Aliens between AVPR and Alien. I would actually go on a limb to say that is unlikely. Im sure somehow in all of those years WY had either encountered the Xeno or at least had done research and found out some information on the creature.

Kimarhi

He studied the alien directly the most out of anybody aside from Bishop and the Scientist in Resurrection (and you could argue Ripley, but I doubt she had her scientist count on).  He directly studied the facehugger.  Observed the cb.  And had the reports of all the other crewmembers as the killings took place.

Doesn't have to have seen the big alien to make that speech at the end.

@SM.  I did remember them saying that.  It just didnt stick.  Probably because I watch the Aliens TC 90% of the time.


walterf

Quote from: Kimarhi on May 21, 2009, 05:26:53 AM
He studied the alien directly the most out of anybody aside from Bishop and the Scientist in Resurrection (and you could argue Ripley, but I doubt she had her scientist count on).  He directly studied the facehugger.  Observed the cb.  And had the reports of all the other crewmembers as the killings took place.

Doesn't have to have seen the big alien to make that speech at the end.

@SM.  I did remember them saying that.  It just didnt stick.  Probably because I watch the Aliens TC 90% of the time.



I'm not denying that Ash studied the creature more than anyone on the ship, but that still doesn't give a whole lot of information. He studied the facehugger and saw a glimpse of the alien popping out of the chest of Kane. And he knew this Alien had killed some members of the ship. That's hardly enough to make him feel it was the perfect creature, the perfect organism and that it had no conscious. For all he knew it could have killed the crew members to eat or who knows what? He knew it killed some crew members, is that enough to say it was the perfect organism, void of a conscious? Those are pretty definitive statements for studying a dead facehugger, seeing an alien pop out of a chest and knowing it killed some crew members.

SM

QuoteYou're focusing on the wording they used, "organism" or "lifeform" but that is just terminology they used in the transmission. If WY happens to know what this being is or if they think they know what the being is, they're not going to type out  a description of it, they're still simply gonna call it an organism in the transmission.

How does this support what you're saying.  Like SiL said, "organism" and "lifeform" are very vague.

As for Ash's knowledge - what knowledge?  Not withstanding the deleted scene where Ash very likely saw the creature at the main airlock, he knows as much as everyone else.  It was small, grew fast and quick and killed everything it came into contact with.  The "without conscience, remorse or delusions of morality" is a scientific opinion based on what he knows.  He hasn't psychoanalysed it.  Plus he was wrong with the "you can't [kill it]" and his final grin clearly shows he was f**king with their heads as well.

EDIT - What Kimba said.

Kimarhi

Yep.  He was most likely still trying to protect it.  If he can convince the rest of the crew not to even bother attempting to kill it, then he can have the nostromo intercepted by the corporation after they abandon, or attempt to abandon ship.

walterf

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 05:36:10 AM
How does this support what you're saying.  Like SiL said, "organism" and "lifeform" are very vague.

As for Ash's knowledge - what knowledge?  Not withstanding the deleted scene where Ash very likely saw the creature at the main airlock, he knows as much as everyone else.  It was small, grew fast and quick and killed everything it came into contact with.  The "without conscience, remorse or delusions of morality" is a scientific opinion based on what he knows.  He hasn't psychoanalysed it.  Plus he was wrong with the "you can't [kill it]" and his final grin clearly shows he was f**king with their heads as well.

EDIT - What Kimba said.

What I'm saying is that even though vague terms like "organism" were used in the transmission does not mean that WY didn't know what was on the planet and/or an idea of what they thought or hoped was on the planet. Yes, the transmission had vague terms but just because vague terms were used didn't mean that all WY or Ash knew was that there was an "organism."

And I still feel like Ash had some extra knowledge of the creature. To me, it's implied that Ash and WY had knowledge or expectations past what is presented at facevalue in the film. Nothing is said for sure which is why this debate is even possible, but subtle ways Ash acted seemed, to me, to always lean that he knew a little more.

SM

He may well have.  The novelisation gives us a hint he may have attempted to communicate with it.  But he only really has a brief opportunity when Ripley interrogates Mother.  The rest of the time he'd be with another member of the crew (excluding the deleted airlock scene).

QuoteWhat I'm saying is that even though vague terms like "organism" were used in the transmission does not mean that WY didn't know what was on the planet and/or an idea of what they thought or hoped was on the planet.

Doesn't mean they DID know either.  And on the weight of all the other evidence, it would indicate they didn't know.

Nachtfalke

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 04:47:28 AM

There is no protocol specific to the transmission - only Special Order 937.  Special meaning it's not standard procedure.  Which is made clear in the film.

Ok, so Special Order 937 is possibly relevant to the Alien and cuts in once it is substantiated that the target organism is identified. The protocol istelf, however, is generic. Thats what I am taking from your post and I agree that is the case after the AVP/AVPR incidents, so I'm sorted there.

Even though WY have known about the Aliens and Predators prior to 'Alien' they never knew that the Nostromo incident involved the Alien at all due to the restrictions of space communications (as we know there are in Alien/s). Ash certainly wasn't around to tell them.
WY only knew of the Nostromo's planned course and timetable. Out of reach of Earth, there is no way (even if Ash or Mother sent a message) that WY would know what had occured until 'Aliens' when they debrief Ripley and check the pod's databanks.

Now, I always thought Burke, like Ash, was acting under company orders, Special Order 937, as part of some whole big plan with the colony. The reality was, "Mr. Burke, opportunity knocks..."!
Its a simpler plot than I thought.
This discussion has changed my perception and I'm sure after my next viewing I will think, "Oh yeh! Its obvious..."  :D

SiL

Taking AvPR's clip of the Alien into account, all the Company would know is that the Alien has a mouth full of sharp teeth.

Scraps of Aliens left in Antarctica would leave everyone scratching their head something chronic.

Unless the Jockey signal gave a full-blown description of what the Alien looked like, there's no way in hell, even including the two movies, the Company would know that the creature on the ship on LV-426 was what they'd encountered in 2004.


Vulhala

Quote from: walterf on May 21, 2009, 03:31:53 AM
It's not that they just call it an organism, but the importance in the transmission. All other objectives secondary, make sure to secure lifeform and the crew is expendable.

Its not just telling them to "go check out this lifeform, see what it is."

Its telling them to put everything on hold and that the crew is expendable and the lifeform being brought back is crucial.

This is a gray area no matter what anyone says because who knows what WY's ethics are or if they have any. But to me, if all they know is that "some type of organism" is there they wouldn't be so direct in their message and say the crew is expendable. To me, this message seems to imply some known importance is involved with the organism. to make the crew expendable and put everything else secondary seems to be urgent.

you're saying that this message is just standard? Whenever a ship gets a transmission that an organism is on a planet the crew is automatically expendable? I know its standard procedure or supposedly standard procedure to investigate all transmissions, but does that mean that whenever a reroute that involves an organism takes place that the crew is expendable and its crucial to get the organism?



In all probabilty yes it is that important. We see no evidence in Alien the humans have ever encoutered an extraterrestrial, regardless of what AvP & AvP:R say. How do we even know that the special order is something just WY implemented? Maybe the government made that order in the event we made first contact and WY, like any other space-faring companies at the time, HAD to obey it? Because to me and a great many others, the idea of something as world shattering as finding evidence that we are not alone in the universe WOULD be that important.

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