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Author Topic: Is The Beast Cooked? (And Alien and Predator Under...  (Read 4075 times)

Dabaus
Nov 22, 2017, 03:12:55 AM
Reply #30 on: Nov 22, 2017, 03:12:55 AM
Q
We've had 2 movies in the prequel franchise so far which adds up to about 4 hours. Within 4 hours of screen time we've yet to learn:
 -how the engineers made humans
-why the engineers made humans
-why the engineers wanted to destroy humans
- what is the black goo, where did it come from?
-is the black a natural element or something the engineers made?
-why did David destroy the engineers in the first place?
-why the f**k did dead engineers in Prometheus die from a chest burster if David allegedly ( I refuse to accept this) created the alien?
-how did the eggs get on the derilect ship?

Do you see what I mean, scott has had 4 f**king hours of screen time to answer the two most basic questions of the Alien franchise, where did they come from and why. We're no closer to that unless you're willing to accept the asinine explanation that David created them in a lab, which I don't, nor will accept. Scott had one f**king job, it was easy.
      It could have been fun and thought provoking. Instead it's this convulted mess that needs a third movie to f**king explain the first two and even then we may not get all the answers or the ones we do will so retcon all preconceived lore it may damn near kill an already battered ip.


Scorpio
Nov 22, 2017, 03:22:14 AM
Reply #31 on: Nov 22, 2017, 03:22:14 AM
Q
Quote
-how the engineers made humans

Beginning of Prometheus it showed that.

Quote
-why the engineers made humans

Theme of creation runs through these movies.

Quote
-why the engineers wanted to destroy humans

"Sometimes to create, you must first destroy"

Quote
- what is the black goo, where did it come from?

It's advanced A.I./nanotechnology. 

Quote
-is the black a natural element or something the engineers made?

The Engineers made it.  Or found it.

Quote
-why did David destroy the engineers in the first place?

He learned their ways.

Quote
-why the f**k did dead engineers in Prometheus die from a chest burster if David allegedly ( I refuse to accept this) created the alien?

They weren't chestbursted, it was the black goo.

Quote
-how did the eggs get on the derilect ship?

We find out in the next one.


Dabaus
Nov 22, 2017, 03:37:32 AM
Reply #32 on: Nov 22, 2017, 03:37:32 AM
Q
Where in any of the films is it explained that the black goo is nanotechnology? HOW did David learn their ways if he killed them? Why would peaceful engineers, presumably, on their home planet have records of this toxic goo, that was on a top secret moon installation as an experiment to begin with??? David bombed a city with black Goo not the whole planet so why would the engineers, on this huge planet all be gathered into one city???

In Prometheus when fiefield and biology bro are looking at the pile of dead engineers one of the explicitly states "it looks like something came out of him." Are you really going to tell me the implication was the black goo made that happen? It was clearly implying a chest burster came out of it. So again, David retcons even Ridleys most precious movie. None of the lore in these films are canon as far as I'm concerned.

« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2017, 03:39:10 AM by Dabaus »

SM
Nov 22, 2017, 03:40:49 AM
Reply #33 on: Nov 22, 2017, 03:40:49 AM
Q
Quote
-how the engineers made humans

It's in the first 5 minutes of Prometheus.

Quote
- what is the black goo, where did it come from?

A highly mutable pathogen.  Where it came from isn't a question that needs answering, but presumably it was created by the Engineers.

Quote
-is the black a natural element or something the engineers made?

See above.

Quote
-why did David destroy the engineers in the first place?

To display his superiority.

Quote
-why the f**k did dead engineers in Prometheus die from a chest burster if David allegedly ( I refuse to accept this) created the alien?

We don't know exactly what the Engineers died of on LV-223.

Quote
We're no closer to that unless you're willing to accept the asinine explanation that David created them in a lab, which I don't, nor will accept.

Whether you accept it not doesn't change the fact that a question was answered.


skhellter
Nov 22, 2017, 03:51:07 AM
Reply #34 on: Nov 22, 2017, 03:51:07 AM
Q
:D
Pretty sure the Deacon was a "chestburster" of sorts.
Accelerant gives rise to lots of nasty critters.
Pretty much an infinite variety.
Some of them killed the engineers in LV223
and some even chestbursted out of them.

Out of all the things in Prometheus... this is the easiest one to explain.
The film gives you all the hints.  ::)

And as to why engineers created humans?
Prometheus also gives you that answer.. with David's question:
"why was i created?" "Because we could."

Why did the engineers hated humans?
The film also gives you that answer...
with the Weyland and Vickers relationship
being that of a parent who hates his child,
It's a neat paralell that invites the audience to explore a big piece
of the lore by questioning human relationships.
And then Weyland is killed by his own creator.. while the daughter he hates watches from afar.
A hateful parent killing a child who hates its own child.

I dont think Prometheus is a good film but
it was trying to do some interesting things with its themes. It's a very pretty mess.

« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2017, 04:20:11 AM by skhellter »

Still Collating...
Nov 22, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Reply #35 on: Nov 22, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Q
Yeah, all those questions are easy to answer, more or less with some minor speculation. I agree that the greatest thing about the prequels are the new opportunities and ideas we have for exploration in the universe. The ending of Covenant was great IMO, not only tonally, but for future exploration of xenomorphs on different planets.
The most dominant theme in these prequels is can be summed up by David himself: Doesn't everyone want there parents dead?
Even though I would've liked to see more of David's lab and his experiments, my only disappointment with him being the creator of the alien is that it's not an ancient creature anymore and it throws out all the novels and comics that reference to the alien as that. It makes the extended universe so much smaller now. We have new opportunities and greater themes, but at the moment with these two prequels, none of those ideas are getting explored enough IMO.

I think we still have great potential where we are now, I just believe someone needs to take care of the franchise so it doesn't get more logically convoluted.

But you know, all could be fixed with time travel...  :laugh: (kidding, I hope they stay far away from that!)


Dabaus
Nov 22, 2017, 04:07:54 PM
Reply #36 on: Nov 22, 2017, 04:07:54 PM
Q
@ still:

Like ridgetop said during the podcast, the current direction makes the alien universe smaller, not larger. I agree with him 1000 percent. I don't see how David creating the alien, which retcons all previous movies before it including Prometheus, opens the univer up in anyway. If anything it diminishes the alien. Killing most of the engineers doesn't open anything up either, it slams doors shut, not opens.
     Instead of being an ancient weapon made by a higher intellect for an unknown reason it's now a science project from a robot that only got to where he was through extraordinary, random circumstances. It's almost as if the alien was an accident instead of an ancient creation.
I just fundamentally disagree that the universe is now larger with the current direction.



Huggs
Nov 22, 2017, 05:59:45 PM
Reply #38 on: Nov 22, 2017, 05:59:45 PM
Q
"It's almost as if the alien was an accident instead of an ancient creation."


In the bluray extras, david said that he was sending Wey-yu the data, and basically it was their choice to pursue this avenue (of creating the aliens) or not. Which is why I believe that now is the time to move away from david and the Prometheus storyline. These films have gotten far too philosophical for their own good, and Ridley is just flying by the seat of his britches here. I don't really believe anyone including Ridley had any idea where this was going after Prometheus, regardless of what he/they have said and continue to say about future plans.


Covenant felt like a half-thought and a do-over, and it left even more questions unanswered. Like it was buying time for somebody else to come up with an actual workable script or idea. I think it's all become a jumbled mess and he's losing whatever interest was there. Having someone who doesn't have any enthusiasm for or faith in the creature be the director of the movies is a poor decision. Aliens and (in my opinion) Alien 3 prove that Ridley isn't the only person capable of directing a good alien film. He isn't the only reason why the modern trilogy is doing poorly, but he's not the only reason the original was so good either. It's time to pass the torch. Wey yu has the data, and david moved out. We've got a clean slate now to Segway back into the original framework.


Scorpio
Nov 22, 2017, 06:20:40 PM
Reply #39 on: Nov 22, 2017, 06:20:40 PM
Q
Like ridgetop said during the podcast, the current direction makes the alien universe smaller, not larger.

How is that?  Before the prequels we knew absolutely nothing about the alien except that the eggs were found in the cargo hold of a derelict ship.  It was just a repeat of the same old formulaic plot in a new setting.

Now we have all this background info that makes the universe bigger, not smaller.  It was small before because the alien was just a monster that showed up and killed people.

The fact that David created one version of the alien (which might have existed before) does not make the universe smaller.  It adds to it, makes it more interesting.


Dabaus
Nov 22, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
Reply #40 on: Nov 22, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
Q
Last thing I'm going to post on this particular subject: Angry joe does a fantastic breakdown of why alien covenant not only ruins the xenomorph but also degrades the entire franchise.



SM
Nov 22, 2017, 07:43:57 PM
Reply #41 on: Nov 22, 2017, 07:43:57 PM
Q
Quote
which retcons all previous movies before it including Prometheus

How?

Quote
  Instead of being an ancient weapon made by a higher intellect for an unknown reason it's now a science project from a robot that only got to where he was through extraordinary, random circumstances. It's almost as if the alien was an accident instead of an ancient creation.

David created it via years of experimentation - didn't seem accidental.

So now it's a more recent weapon made by a higher intellect for known reasons.

They're not obliged to follow through on the way you thought things should happen.
Of course you're not obliged to like what they ultimately did.


skhellter
Nov 22, 2017, 08:18:01 PM
Reply #42 on: Nov 22, 2017, 08:18:01 PM
Q
Angry joe does a fantastic bre



Angry Joe is some bottom of the barrel plebeian shit.
That video is some of the cringiest weakest most "manchild"ish shit i've ever seen.
He must have cried into his pillow after recording it.

Quote
which retcons all previous movies before it including Prometheus

How?

Via hyperbole and heavy doses of salt.

« Last Edit: Nov 24, 2017, 05:35:23 PM by skhellter »

Dabaus
Nov 22, 2017, 08:27:59 PM
Reply #43 on: Nov 22, 2017, 08:27:59 PM
Q
Genuinely surprised by the amount of alien covenant apologists.

Retcons:
Prometheus- Fiefield and biology bro find pile of dead engineers. Biology bro explicitly states it looks like something came out of him. The implication is a chest burster came out of him.

Alien: Eggs on the derilect ship with a space jockey that also had a chest burster come out of it. If the 2000 crew members on the covenant ship are somehow turned into the eggs on the derilect ship and David is the space jockey, I'm out man.

Aliens- resurrection: see above.

We can argue all day how we feel the franchise is going but based off the tepid response covenant had at the box office, the divisive nature of the film, and the retconning of certain story elements, a large portion of alien fans aren't happy with it either. So much so fox had to re-evaluate the franchise and hopes Ridley will "find" the right direction for the next movie.


Jonesy1974
Nov 22, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
Reply #44 on: Nov 22, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
Q
So people who like Covenant are now apologists. Good grief   ::)


 

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