So, before 'Alien', did Weyland Yutani know of the creature?

Started by Nachtfalke, May 19, 2009, 01:57:30 AM

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So, before 'Alien', did Weyland Yutani know of the creature? (Read 12,647 times)

walterf

walterf

#15
I'm not cherry picking, I'm not even picking one side, really. I looked at two different scenarious in my reply. One is that they knew it was something very important, if not exactly what it was and the other scenario is that they did standard protocol according to the transmission.

And it is still very possible that even if they knew EXACTLY what it was, that they still decided to let the space truckers handle it. It depends on the knowledge they had. If WY had knowledge of the Alien lifecycle they may have just assumed everyone in the ship would get facehugged and that later WY would intercept the ship somehow, knowing the crew had been killed turned to Aliens.

or if they didn't know how long the lifecycle would take, but knew of what facehuggers did they could have just hoped one or several crew members were facehugged and then WY could just take the facehugged crew members once the ship landed at its destination.

There isn't one definitive way to look at this because we are never given 100% concrete information that it happened one way or another.

You can then go in the complete opposite direction and say that WY just knew it was something dangerous and potentially valuable, but nothing more. Therefore they sent the transmission to obtain whatever it is and to hell with the crew since they're just unimportant.

I also don't see what Ash being put on the ship 3 days earlier and the re-directed message prove about knowledge or lack of knowledge. Once WY found out a bit of what had happened they could have sent a new message to Ash, it's not like only what Ash knew when he boarded the ship and the original directive are the last updates they could have possibly recieved.

SM

QuoteThere isn't one definitive way to look at this because we are never given 100% concrete information that it happened one way or another.

Only if one chooses to ignore the information presented in the first three films.

QuoteOne is that they knew it was something very important, if not exactly what it was and the other scenario is that they did standard protocol according to the transmission.

Case in point.  The Company really did the former (well not quite; they suspected - not "knew" - it was something valuable and therefore important; for all they knew whoever made the transmission and whatever they were warning again was long dead), while making the crew think they were doing the latter.  It's not one or the other - it's both.

walterf

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 02:31:41 AM
Only if one chooses to ignore the information presented in the first three films.

Case in point.  The Company really did the former (well not quite; they suspected - not "knew" - it was something valuable and therefore important; for all they knew whoever made the transmission and whatever they were warning again was long dead), while making the crew think they were doing the latter.  It's not one or the other - it's both.

That seems plausible to me, again, I'm not arguing that. They figured it may be potentially valuable, so send the truckers to check it out, tell them its standard protocol and if it happens to be valuable and/or dangerous and kills them all ... well, they're just truckers anyway.

it may be a small detail to fixate on, but I am not a huge Alien expert by any means, but the transmission that tells ash to obtain the lifeform and that the crew is expendable .. how did that happen? Was that in the original message telling the ship to reroute or did those specific instructions not happen until after the facehugger was already in the ship and Ash possibly communicated with WY, letting them know a lifeform was actually aboard the ship.

SM

SPECIAL ORDER 937:
NOSTROMO REROUTED TO NEW COORDINATES.
INVESTIGATE LIFE FORM.GATHER SPECIMEN.
PRIORITY ONE. INSURE RETURN OF ORGANISM FOR ANALYSIS.
ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS SECONDARY.
CREW EXPENDABLE

SO937 was science officer eyes only, so Ash read it and obeyed just after he replaced the previous science officer.

Interesting to wonder exactly how he re-routed the Nostromo and managed to hide it from Lambert.  Must've programmed his freezer to open just after they left Thedus, did the switcheroo, then went back to bed.

SiL

It says "Nostromo rerouted", though, not "Reroute Nostromo". The Company sent them in the direction and just told Ash what to do when they got there.

Nachtfalke

Nachtfalke

#20
Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 12:52:45 AM
It doesn't explain however why they risked something that was supposedly so important to dumbass tug jockies.

They didn't, they had Ash acting on their behalf. He was supposed to be the recovery man with the rest of the crew being expendable. They snuck synthetics on board every WY vessel in case of this type of event I would imagine.
They knew the Alien was out there, and even the Predator, so what better way to keep the corporation tentacles on the pulse than have spies on those vessels.


As I have said ad nauseum - we've seen what the Company did when they realised the Alien's potential in Alien3.  They had half a century to do the exact same thing; but didn't.  If the Nostromo SO failed - which it did, they're not going to just let it go.  They lost an entire colony in Ailens which is going to raise more questions than one tug and 6 crew, and were subsequently all over the Alien like a rash.

Well, now that is a question. Why wait 57 years until 'Aliens'?
Those concerned with capturing an Alien knew they needed to aquire the Alien outside of regular channels and knowing how it reproduced, they saw their chance in placing a terraforming colony on what was basically a worthless moon.
It was a plan that was given the time to gestate, pardon the pun.


Ok, so in the movie timeline:

1987: Predator
The government becomes aware of the Predator for the first time.
Neither Weyland or Yutani are involved at this point.

1997: Predator 2
In the ten years following the debriefing of Dutch Schaeffer, the Predator has become a holy grail for the US government and special teams track Predator activity. This is the first time following the events of 'Predator' that (official) contact with a Predator has been made.
Weyland and Yutani have no known involvement.

2004: Alien vs. Predator
Weyland Industries picks up a heat bloom in Antarctica and a team, with the founder of Weyland leading them, invesitgates to find a pyramid under the ice that reveals the true extent of Predator interaction with the human race.
Aside from images of the heat bloom and all information from satellite and ancient world expert sources, no other information is available to the Weyland Corporation other than the more than likely debriefing of Lex.
This is Weyland Industries' first evidence of the Alien in theoretical terms with no photographic evidence.

2007: Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem
A Predator ship crashes in Colorado and a lone Predator investigates, finding a Predalien Queen as the cause.
The Government starts to converge resources on the area, even before the Sherriff's call for help.
Acting on intel from the Antarctica Event, it is decided to nuke the area to avoid widespread outbreak.
An image of an Alien and a Predator plasma weapon are recovered and at least the weapon is given to Yutani.
How involved Weyland or even Yutani were in these events are unclear, but at some point the two merged and their resources pooled.

2122: Alien
WY space vessels are all secretly manned with synthetic spies. A protocol regarding the recovery of ET life is made part of the WY structure and all synthetics are programmed to act on this protocol and recover ETs at any cost for WY.
It is unclear as to wether any previous efforts to track down the aliens were fruitless or if no efforts were undertaken at all between the events of 'AVPR' and 'ALIEN'.
The planting of synthetic spies seems to be a desperate last ditch effort to find a trace of the aliens in deep space.

2178: Aliens (56 Years Later)
After realising that Earth Authorities would never allow an organism like the alien to pass through to Earth, WY exploit the new trend in Terraforming Colonies to set one up on a seemingly worthless and insigificant moon in the hopes someone will stumble across the Derelect and be smuggled to Earth in stasis.
It simply takes the workers/colonists longer to find the Derelect than they had hoped. Once it is confirmed that LV426 is infected, their plan snaps into action - Burke is sent to fulfil the role Ash had in 'Alien' taking Marines for protection and the only known survivor of an Alien encounter as advisor.
It all goes awry and aside from video footage of the Marines that may or may not have made it to WY, there is nothing except ruins of the colony left to investigate once the reactor in the colony goes critical and explodes.
It is also unclear as to why the synthetic, Bishop, does not act on the protocol himself. This may be due to the fact that WY had no need for the protocol to be programmed into the synthetics as it knew where to now source the Alien.

2178: Alien 3
The vessel Sulaco experiences a fire and the ship ejects an escape pod. The pod crashes on Fiorina 'Fury' 161, a penal and refinery colony. Ripley is the lone survivor.
She consults Bishop and is told that a face hugger was aboard the pod. A dog is infected by the face hugger and an Alien, varying from previous physiology (evidence that a host leaves a genetic imprint), is birthed.
WY despatch a ship to rescue Ripley, but the motive is to capture the Alien and the gestating one inside Ripley for use in a bio weapons project.
WY arrive and the company's head, the human Bishop Weyland on which the synthetic was modelled, tries to convince Ripley to accompany them, she declines and kills herself.

2378: Alien Resurrection
Cloning is possible and in the 200 years since A3, no headway has been made in finding more Aliens, or any Predators for that matter.
Ripley is cloned on the military vessell Auriga from a blood sample and the Alien embryo is removed, which is a queen.
The Aliens are bred by the United Systems Military, who have seemingly either bought out or merged with WY.
Through events instigated partially by a faction of mercenaries, the Aliens run riot and the merging of genetic tissue of the Alien Queen and Ripley yields a Queen that can give birth to live young, as humans do.
The hybrid is killed and Ripley approaches the Earth in a seperate ship with the remaining survivors as the Auriga impacts on Earth's surface.
No further intel is available as to where the mythology stands.

walterf

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2009, 02:50:24 AM
SPECIAL ORDER 937:
NOSTROMO REROUTED TO NEW COORDINATES.
INVESTIGATE LIFE FORM.GATHER SPECIMEN.
PRIORITY ONE. INSURE RETURN OF ORGANISM FOR ANALYSIS.
ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS SECONDARY.
CREW EXPENDABLE

SO937 was science officer eyes only, so Ash read it and obeyed just after he replaced the previous science officer.

Interesting to wonder exactly how he re-routed the Nostromo and managed to hide it from Lambert.  Must've programmed his freezer to open just after they left Thedus, did the switcheroo, then went back to bed.

This is where I find problems just saying WY only "thought" there may be something valuable there.

its specifically stated that it is an organism, which leads me to think WY had to know a little more about what this organism was or they atleast made an educated guess and figured chances are it is this particular organism. Which also leads to how much info the original transmission to WY gave. Was it just a warning that something had happened or did the warning to WY give details about the creature.

To me, signs point towards WY either knowing exactly what the organism was or at least knowing enough about it to have a good idea of its potential.

SiL

QuoteAfter realising that Earth Authorities would never allow an organism like the alien to pass through to Earth, WY exploit the new trend in Terraforming Colonies to set one up on a seemingly worthless and insigificant moon in the hopes someone will stumble across the Derelect and be smuggled to Earth in stasis.
It simply takes the workers/colonists longer to find the Derelect than they had hoped. Once it is confirmed that LV426 is infected, their plan snaps into action - Burke is sent to fulfil the role Ash had in 'Alien' taking Marines for protection and the only known survivor of an Alien encounter as advisor.
Except the colonists don't stumble upon it, Burke tells them to go take a look when Ripley gets back, and then goes to secure his find. He makes it quite clear he's working outside the Company and acting in self interest.

Quoteits specifically stated that it is an organism,
Something made that signal, and it clearly wasn't human. For all we know the special order referred to the jockey, not the Alien. Which actually makes more sense.

SM

Quote[It says "Nostromo rerouted", though, not "Reroute Nostromo". The Company sent them in the direction and just told Ash what to do when they got there.

Good point.  And seems to make things all the more complex in how they actually went about it.  Lambert would've programmed the ship to fly back to Earth - but then what?  Someone put a program on the ship that made it change course after the crew was asleep?

QuoteHe was supposed to be the recovery man

He didn't do a very good job.  Plus he's one (artificial) man.  If the Alien is as important as they make out in Alien3 - you (attempt to) send a properly equipped team.  Ipso facto etcetera.

QuoteIt was a plan that was given the time to gestate, pardon the pun.

A Company that will willingly send a crew to it's death would wait over 20 years for a payoff?  WOFTAM.

Quote2178: Aliens (56 Years Later)
After realising that Earth Authorities would never allow an organism like the alien to pass through to Earth, WY exploit the new trend in Terraforming Colonies to set one up on a seemingly worthless and insigificant moon in the hopes someone will stumble across the Derelect and be taken to Earth for 'treatment'.

Hadley's Hope was established in the 50s.

Nachtfalke

Quote from: SiL on May 21, 2009, 03:01:30 AM
Except the colonists don't stumble upon it, Burke tells them to go take a look when Ripley gets back, and then goes to secure his find. He makes it quite clear he's working outside the Company and acting in self interest.


See, I have to disagree there. WY knew where the Derelect was as a result of ALIEN, Burke relayed the information as to its exact location after Ripley told the inquest.
WY, until Ripley's intel as to where the Derelect actually was, just hoped the colonists would find it.
My only question is why WY didn't canvas the moon first and do the same thing way earlier.
The notion that WY had no idea about the Derelect's planetary location until 'Aliens' is invalid IMO. I always took Burke's revelation as meaning its his big break. His find.

walterf

To state my final take on the original question in this thread, WY or The Company really had to know of the Alien's existence before the movie Alien. There are photos and accounts from AVPR and a survivor who saw the Aliens from AVP. In addition to that, it logically makes sense that an investigation had taken place of the temple after AVP, which would likely lead to findings of eggs and or Alien parts, etc.

I also think SM's idea of WY not knowing it was an Alien in the original film is somewhat possible, but just not probable. The directness of the message for Ash sounds very specific if they only thought that "maybe" something valuable could possibly be on the planet. I think they either knew exactly what it was nad if they didn't likely were really betting on the fact it was what they thought.

The only way my above paragraph could be incorrect is if had somehow been standard procedure that anytime a transmission was picked up that the transmission was automatically put to main importance and that crew life was completely expendable.

SiL

What "directness" in the message?

Investigate life-form. Collect sample of organism. These are incredibly vague terms - They literally describe anything that is alive or was once living. It applies as much to the space jockey as to the Alien as to worms or to bacteria. The only way they could have been more vague would be to say "Go here and look at stuff".

walterf

walterf

#27
Quote from: SiL on May 21, 2009, 03:24:13 AM
What "directness" in the message?

Investigate life-form. Collect sample of organism. These are incredibly vague terms - They literally describe anything that is alive or was once living. It applies as much to the space jockey as to the Alien as to worms or to bacteria. The only way they could have been more vague would be to say "Go here and look at stuff".

It's not that they just call it an organism, but the importance in the transmission. All other objectives secondary, make sure to secure lifeform and the crew is expendable.

Its not just telling them to "go check out this lifeform, see what it is."

Its telling them to put everything on hold and that the crew is expendable and the lifeform being brought back is crucial.

This is a gray area no matter what anyone says because who knows what WY's ethics are or if they have any. But to me, if all they know is that "some type of organism" is there they wouldn't be so direct in their message and say the crew is expendable. To me, this message seems to imply some known importance is involved with the organism. to make the crew expendable and put everything else secondary seems to be urgent.

you're saying that this message is just standard? Whenever a ship gets a transmission that an organism is on a planet the crew is automatically expendable? I know its standard procedure or supposedly standard procedure to investigate all transmissions, but does that mean that whenever a reroute that involves an organism takes place that the crew is expendable and its crucial to get the organism?


Nachtfalke

Quote from: walterf on May 21, 2009, 03:16:48 AM
To state my final take on the original question in this thread, WY or The Company really had to know of the Alien's existence before the movie Alien. There are photos and accounts from AVPR and a survivor who saw the Aliens from AVP. In addition to that, it logically makes sense that an investigation had taken place of the temple after AVP, which would likely lead to findings of eggs and or Alien parts, etc.


In a nutshell, I share that view. They simply, "Had to know...". Thats is undeniable.
The circumstances will always be debatable.

SM

QuoteWY, until Ripley's intel as to where the Derelect actually was, just hoped the colonists would find it.

Based on what?  What Company spends millions, if not billions for over 2 decades setting up a colony just to secure something they could've done in a day, half a century earlier?

QuoteThey simply, "Had to know...". Thats is undeniable.

It's completely deniable, because you've yet to show anything concrete to support it.

Quoteyou're saying that this message is just standard? Whenever a ship gets a transmission that an organism is on a planet the crew is automatically expendable?

No, he's not saying that at all.  And the fact WY issued a SPECIAL order to Ash means it wasn't the least bit standard.  Who's going to sign on to a crew where SOP is to die at the Company's whim?

QuoteIts telling them to put everything on hold and that the crew is expendable and the lifeform being brought back is crucial.

It's important - not crucial - to the BWD because they were warned to stay away from it.  You aren't warned to stay away from something benign.

It's a massive leap to say this "organism" automatically equates "an 8 foot slavering black extraterrestrial that gestates inside a dude and was once briefly glimpsed on Earth 120 years earlier".

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