Just wanted to give everyone a heads up about the Alien3 legacy cut, a new trailer was released on YouTube and I have to say some of the puppet work looks better now.
https://youtu.be/Nj_fQLbsB94?si=ZTq8t6NrpehBsql8
How are they managing to put this out in 4K?? Are there original film reels floating around out there? It seems to be the Assembly Cut given they show Clemens finding Ripley :o
*EDIT* Ah, 'tis upscaled to 4K. Not native. Still, the rod puppet effects do look better!
https://www.reddit.com/r/LV426/s/88MQrN0BZV :-X
Just looks like the special edition with dog instead of the ox. Not seeing much change with the effects apart from the shot with Dillon, Ripley and Morse. It is a well cut trailer though.
Quote from: SM on Apr 26, 2024, 10:55:02 PMIt is a well cut trailer though.
It shows so much though. I feel like I've already seen the movie.
Needs more Bishops Countdown to make it seem more exciting than it actually is.
Looks absolutely f**king gooorgeous.
Disappointing "Alien Day" but cosmicly worthwhile, if it is the price to pay for this project.
Holy f**k.
I was not aware of this. Just watched the trailer and I'm almost speechless. Not been the best week if I'm honest but this has certainly lifted my spirits.
That shot of the Patna approaching fury...f**king hell mate. 😍
So I'm guessing this is the assembly cut, but with the dog, perfect.
This seem to be the perfect version for me, very nice.
Perfect version to most I reckon, the eventual official version will have a lot to live up to. Embedded trailer:
Quote from: SM on Apr 26, 2024, 10:55:02 PMNot seeing much change with the effects apart from the shot with Dillon, Ripley and Morse.
Yeah, out of all rod puppet bots they showed that was the only one where I went "OK, this actually looks better"
Look for the green hue and matte lines, the majority are gone.
It still doesn't quite blend in with the rest of the footage
Yeah.
When is that available? Wish it was official.
Wow! Alien³ look breathtakingly beautiful!
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 27, 2024, 09:48:58 AMPerfect version to most I reckon, the eventual official version will have a lot to live up to. Embedded trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj_fQLbsB94
it looks great.
Not so keen on a lot of the decisions regarding this cut.
https://www.a34k.net/narrative-choices1
Cutting the facehugger in the opening? cutting Dillon describing himself as a rapist and murderer of women?
Pass.
I can't wait to see the egg in 4k.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 27, 2024, 07:57:43 PMI can't wait to see the egg in 4k.
Does it serve to reach consensus? :o
QuoteThis narrative choice may be a controversial one, but it was a decision I made early on in the project, and I still haven't been able to talk myself out of it.
It's something of an understatement to say there aren't many likeable characters to latch onto in Alien ³. We're not dealing with a crew of relatable space truckers towing cargo, or a rag-tag team of colonial marines. Ripley's peers this time are " thieves, rapists, murders, child molesters. All scum".
The characters we can attach ourselves to are limited to Ripley, Clemens, Dillon, and later Morse and Aaron. Among the supporting characters, the most engaging of them is probably Dillon. While second chances and hope for redemption are good things, and fantastic narrative devices, when Dillon tells Ripley "I'm a murderer and rapist of women", it just obliterates any ability I have to cheer for him in any real way.
He's not a good man, he's has a dark past and has done some terrible things, or he wouldn't be here. But in cutting out that one line, those seven little words, we never really know for sure. In doing so, it just opens me up more to accepting his redemption arc when he sacrifices himself at the end.
The scene really does flow quite perfectly without it, and it's edited seamlessly. Had I not mentioned it here you probably wouldn't even have noticed the cut. Dillon tells Ripley "You don't wanna know me, lady". She is taken aback and asks, "Really?... I guess I must make you nervous." Why wouldn't she? It's a prison colony full of men who haven't seen a woman in years. Many of them are here for raping or murdering women, some of them both. She wonders... what brought Dillon here?
Rousing speeches are great, protecting Ripley is great, but having raped and murdered not even one "woman", but multiple "women", just completely writes Dillon off for me. I can't get past it, and I always really, really want to like Dillon and root for him. The knowing he has something truly awful to make amends for, but never knowing the specifics, just makes him more interesting, engaging, and potentially even sympathetic as a character.
This person should not be touching
Alien3 and I've lost all interest in seeing this.
The current trend of bowdlerization is bad enough when the studios are doing it. Now it's the f**king fans too?
QuoteThis narrative choice may be a controversial one, but it was a decision I made early on in the project, and I still haven't been able to talk myself out of it.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdzhueG5tMXNhaTdoeXQ5ajdkbWppdGoxODN6cGlvbWQyZGpnNTNxYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dNdWn0CLrpad6vuYEJ/giphy.gif)
Damn, what a pity.
I can understand cutting
Spoiler
"child molesters"
for pretty obvious reasons. But honestly do not believe in "fan cuts" in terms of changing the material (purely for accessibility reasons) of the film itself.
Of all of Alien 3's problems, failing to commit to the premise of the convicts being scum who deserve to be where they are isn't one of them.
It's one of the few things that's genuinely interesting about the movie, so I'd leave "child molesters" right where it is.
Next thing you know, they'll all be retconned as good guys who were falsely accused and railroaded through a corrupt justice system by Weyland-Yutani for reasons.
Quote from: skhellter on Apr 27, 2024, 07:07:01 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 27, 2024, 09:48:58 AMPerfect version to most I reckon, the eventual official version will have a lot to live up to. Embedded trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj_fQLbsB94
it looks great.
Not so keen on a lot of the decisions regarding this cut.
https://www.a34k.net/narrative-choices1
Cutting the facehugger in the opening? cutting Dillon describing himself as a rapist and murderer of women?
Pass.
'I can accept his redemptive arc if he wasn't that bad in the first place, and if he doesn't have to work with the literal personification of the temptation he warns others about.'
Looked at some of the other "Narrative Choices" and someone should take this guys copy of Sony Vegas off him.
Quote from: SM on Mar 14, 2018, 05:58:16 AMNo, I'm not into fan-edits, so I'll give it a miss.
Yikes!🤮 these changes!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 27, 2024, 10:24:10 PMQuote from: SM on Mar 14, 2018, 05:58:16 AMNo, I'm not into fan-edits, so I'll give it a miss.
Based on the trailer I was almost tempted to give this one a look.
What definition of 'Legacy' is he using here?
He replied to a comment of mine commending him on the effort, after reading about the changes I wrote this:
"Well let me say this then, I think you are making a mistake by cutting aspects of characters out that makes them unpleasant people. Dillon must have a specific heinous thing to his name, otherwise the character not only loses his texture, but also the redemption becomes nullified if he gets redeemed for vagueries.
I do not believe you should make any controversial changes, especially if it is fundamentally antithetical to what the creators had created.
I can understand cutting the Egg and Facehugger from the opening as an example, because they were studio mandated in the opening, not a creative decision...
Or even swapping Ox for Dog, or including the Chestburster, as many have expressed interest in a version of the Assembly Cut with each.
But I am not being hyperbolic when I say editing the characters down to be more comfortable makes this whole effort moot."
I always perceived Dillon as being his own harshest judge. Kinda like this:
Let's pretend the TC actually sacrifices character development; why cut more?
Because it upsets him! >:(
Apparently 'Show us a little leadership' means 'We're completely fine painting the walls with highly flammable goop in the dark', and Dillon should immediately defer to Ripley for everything because who needs drama and conflict eh?
He probably could've sourced Aaron's audio about vent shaft 17 from the workprint too.
"I can only get behind his redemption if I don't know what he did wrong in the first place" and "I like the nihilistic tone and oppressive atmosphere" just don't gel.
It's not that it's controversial. It just demonstrates a lack of emotional maturity by trying to make uncomfortable things more palatable.
Quote from: SM on Apr 27, 2024, 10:44:09 PMApparently 'Show us a little leadership' means 'We're completely fine painting the walls with highly flammable goop in the dark', and Dillon should immediately defer to Ripley for everything because who needs drama and conflict eh?
Yeah I never had a problem with that line. He says show us leadership, not "we're your slaves".
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that being 4k alone won't entice me into seeing this hatchet job.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 27, 2024, 10:48:37 PM"I can only get behind his redemption if I don't know what he did wrong in the first place" and "I like the nihilistic tone and oppressive atmosphere" just don't gel.
It's not that it's controversial. It just demonstrates a lack of emotional maturity by trying to make uncomfortable things more palatable.
Quote from: SM on Apr 27, 2024, 10:44:09 PMApparently 'Show us a little leadership' means 'We're completely fine painting the walls with highly flammable goop in the dark', and Dillon should immediately defer to Ripley for everything because who needs drama and conflict eh?
Yeah I never had a problem with that line. He says show us leadership, not "we're your slaves".
The actual problem with that sequence is the repetition. One version of the script had Aaron explain about the nuclear waste dump, while Dillon was present and it's a bit tighter.
What are these baby mode changes... hype went from 100 to 0 real quick. What a waste of time.
Wiping away a criminal record just because you like a dude is the most smooth brained baby's first movie shit. I don't think an alright chill dude would willingly banish himself to a cold rock at the edge of space.... It's literally the whole point of the character that you like him IN SPITE of what he was. THATS THE POWER OF MOVIES AND GOOD STORYTELLING
Someone should write a strongly-worded letter to the guy making this thing.
I have linked him this thread, so if anyone wants to put their perspective into words eloquently do it now.
Remember a human being has spent three years on this bloody thing.
To put it constructively, the fact humanity is saved by the worst of humanity is an important aspect of the story, thematically and narratively. Dillon embodies that. Sanitising it robs the film of depth and Dillon of character.
Dillon pretty clearly demonstrated in the movie that he was not only no longer a rapist, he actually saved her from being gang raped by men that he considered his brothers.
After that he demonstrated that he was no longer a murderer when he couldn't bring himself to kill her, despite his earlier assurance that he was up to it. Hell, he wouldn't even let her die in the mold.
In short, if you take away his "murderer and rapist of women" line, you grossly undermine the impact of what he does later in the film.
Plus Ripley's come back of "I guess I must make you nervous" is a f**king great line.
Even Junior's little smirk and nod is gold.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 29, 2024, 05:02:30 AMDillon pretty clearly demonstrated in the movie that he was not only no longer a rapist, he actually saved her from being gang raped by men that he considered his brothers.
Also stops himself short of killing the rapists.
Dillon is the embodiment of the film's thematic argument. He has absolutely rejected nihilism and the destructive/ self destructive potential of nihilism. He will literally beat the nihilism out of you if he sees you abandoning your moral principle. He will not let you check out early and let other people deal with shit. He will not let you die on your arse doing nothing.
And all of this is made stronger by the fact he has clearly embraced nihilism in the past, and learned to overcome and reject it.
Also, importantly, you don't have to like him. You don't have to forgive him or think he's redeemed. It's entirely ok to feel uncomfortable watching someone you fine repugnant do the right thing.
Yeah, Darth Vader didn't suddenly atone for murdering children just because he saved Luke in ROTJ.
Tellingly they both die in their last acts of seeming absolution. The only price high enough to pay to redeem themselves is their lives in exchange for countless others - and even that might not be quite enough.
I wonder if that guy will even bother to read any of this. We're casting pearls here and it may all be for nothing. 🐷
I mean I'm sure calling him swine will really motivate him after we've been asked to be constructive?
I'm withholding judgment, but I'm not optimistic.
I have a strong feeling that this 4k edit is way too far along and his opinions are way too entrenched for anything we say here to make a bit of difference.
I'll happily retract my words if I'm wrong.
Come on folk, tone down the personally directed responses. It's unnecessary.
It's a labour of love - like fan fic, fan art, cosplay etc. The fact everyone here disagrees shouldn't shift his decisions. Me least of all since I think all fan edits are bad.
I already called it a hatchet job. Not much else I can say now that I haven't said already.
The guy who's making it is welcome to prove that asshole on AvPG (me) wrong by reversing those stupid changes, but I won't hold my breath.
It's just a shame that this is the only 4k version of Alien 3 on the horizon and, as it stands now, it's a shameless act of artistic vandalism.
I'm hopeful that seeing how the line resonates with audiences, and the perspectives given here, might get him to rethink his decision. Especially since people who are otherwise keen to see his work would sooner not watch it for the sake of something he considers simple to remove.
Man, as someone familiar with the ins and outs of the Alien fan edit, I gotta admit these narrative changes are disappointing.
Alien 3, apart from maybe Covenant, is the only Alien movie that actively does not care if you like it. It's divisive, it's mean, and it's ruthless in how much it wants to get that across to viewers. And I think that's a large part of what makes it a great film. Over the years it's become second to the original for me.
While I can understand why you'd want to make Dillon someone to root for - the point is that you can't, or rather, shouldn't. His acts of redemption throughout the film don't make him a good person - just a better person than he once was. And if you can leave this plane of existence a better person than you were before you were pitted against the scariest, most gruesome creature in the galaxy, well that just shows you how hopeful Alien 3 also is! To echo what's been said, the worst of the worst saved the galaxy in Alien 3, with Ripley being their guiding light of redemption.
I do hope that the editor rethinks the narrative decisions, because the color corrected effects in the 4k package would've made this the definitive edition for me.
Let Dillon be Dillon, not just a generic movie good guy please.
Quote from: GrimmVision on Apr 29, 2024, 10:58:04 AMMan, as someone familiar with the ins and outs of the Alien fan edit, I gotta admit these narrative changes are disappointing.
Alien 3, apart from maybe Covenant, is the only Alien movie that actively does not care if you like it. It's divisive, it's mean, and it's ruthless in how much it wants to get that across to viewers. And I think that's a large part of what makes it a great film. Over the years it's become second to the original for me.
While I can understand why you'd want to make Dillon someone to root for - the point is that you can't, or rather, shouldn't. His acts of redemption throughout the film don't make him a good person - just a better person than he once was. And if you can leave this plane of existence a better person than you were before you were pitted against the scariest, most gruesome creature in the galaxy, well that just shows you how hopeful Alien 3 also is! To echo what's been said, the worst of the worst saved the galaxy in Alien 3, with Ripley being their guiding light of redemption.
I do hope that the editor rethinks the narrative decisions, because the color corrected effects in the 4k package would've made this the definitive edition for me.
We root for Dillon because he moved beyond his past and is the spiritual leader, guiding the others and generally keeping the peace.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 29, 2024, 07:03:45 AMTellingly they both die in their last acts of seeming absolution. The only price high enough to pay to redeem themselves is their lives in exchange for countless others - and even that might not be quite enough.
sil
your ability to use the english language is phenominal. you should write a novel or something.
#cough#
essay about burke not working alone...........
*cough*
sorry off topic.
lol
My post wasn't to say that you absolutely shouldn't root for Dillon. Heck, I kinda do by the end because he's a bettered person and actually proves it. Without him, Ripley wouldn't have accomplished anything in Alien 3. But, clearly there are a ton of moral intricacies in rooting for someone who has a past which includes killing and raping even though they've seemingly moved past what they've done.
It's evident that it's causation for dilemma. Some people even go so far as to making fan edits wanting to remove Dillon's character flaws because they'd rather Dillon be a morally good character, someone to root for without those second guesses entering the back of their mind.
Rooting for Dillon really depends on moral stances and those can be so intricate that they can even facilitate contradictions. I also root for David because he's a well written, nuanced, and exciting villain so :P
I do believe Dillon is a well written character because he's flawed and not a cookie cutter cutout.
Hi everyone,
Your comments have all been taken on board and you made strong arguments. The line of dialogue explaining Dillon's backstory is being added back in. This isn't caving to pressure, you genuinely changed my mind.
Thanks for the feedback.
I see this particular project is getting some pushback over certain choices. But that's the thing with 'fan edits' in general, they're mainly done with the fan editor's own wishes in mind, no matter what anyone else thinks. Looks like he's done some neat effects tweaks and re-grading work on it so far however, so good luck to him.
But for those like myself who prefer the 'dog-burster' footage over the 'ox' in an 'Assembly Cut', there's already the excellent Alien 3: Third Cut edit by 15MaF which retains the character moments as they are. And he's done some neat tweaks along the way too, where re-grading is concerned. Definitely my go-to version - https://ifdb.fanedit.org/alien-3-third-cut/ (https://ifdb.fanedit.org/alien-3-third-cut/)
Quote from: Project A34K on Apr 29, 2024, 04:58:41 PMHi everyone,
Your comments have all been taken on board and you made strong arguments. The line of dialogue explaining Dillon's backstory is being added back in. This isn't caving to pressure, you genuinely changed my mind.
Thanks for the feedback.
:o
Then I hereby retract my earlier criticism.
Quote from: BringbackJonesy! on Apr 29, 2024, 05:21:59 PMI see...
Read the comment just above yours.
Quote from: Project A34K on Apr 29, 2024, 04:58:41 PMHi everyone,
Your comments have all been taken on board and you made strong arguments. The line of dialogue explaining Dillon's backstory is being added back in. This isn't caving to pressure, you genuinely changed my mind.
Thanks for the feedback.
Lovely to see you around here, thank you for all the hard work you have put in to this project.
Thanks for the nudge
Can you fix the cryotubes while you're at it?
My skills have limits, I'm afraid. Though I did notice someone on the thread say there was a workprint where Aaron's call matches the vent shaft Andrews states later? If anyone has a link to that and the audio is viable I'd much rather patch the hole than cut the line out completely.
I've tried to look for the workprint to see if there was anything I could use, but I'm coming up empty
This is one of the most unexpected things I can ever Proceeded. Also good for you for taking criticism.
I've always wanted to see a cut that combines the dog scenes of the theatrical into the assembly. I also like the idea of removing the egg and facehugger scenes in the beginning.
The cleaned up effects in the trailer look good, and I respect being open to suggestions and feedback (even though sometimes people in here can be a little hasty and harsh imo).
Look forward to checking this out!
Yeah I'm pretty happy with the dog being included. I always miss it in the theatrical. Not that the ox is a bad thing, I just don't like the effect as much. Also nostalgia reasons.
Yeah the belly bouncing shots of Spike are great... And horrifying.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 29, 2024, 09:44:16 PMYeah the belly bouncing shots of Spike are great... And horrifying.
And sad because I'm an animal Lover
Bursting from a dog just adds that extra horror that's more visceral and impacting for sure. It's somewhat minor differences, but I've always thought the dog burst scene is cut better than the ox as well.
I love the shots of the abattoir itself, I will miss them, but I think it is the right decision.
I'm always open to feedback. It's a warm bath reading all the positive comments and pats on the back, but the criticism can often be more informative. Perhaps going forward a more delicate hand though ;D
I don't hate the ox scene, if it had been the default I don't think I'd have a problem with it. It was just after seeing the dog, which already carries more emotional weight, not to mention the ox is already dead when it comes out, it just seems like a downgrade all around. I understand the pro-ox arguments, but even combined the religious symmetry and the scaling argument just don't hold a candle to the emotional thump and the storytelling set up of the dog.
Just FYI the abbatoir still makes an appearance. I keep the ox in as much as possible up to the point of contradicting TC scenes. We still see Murphy and Frank unload the beast. The scene just goes up to the line "Treat a whore like a queen, and a queen like a whore, can't go wrong" then we hard cut to the furnaces coming on for the funeral.
FYI the 'Image' section of the website will go live in a few hours, which details a significant change to this version. Truth be told I'm fairly nervous of the community's reaction... Again, a delicate hand.
My problem with the ox is that it's already dead when it pops. Where's the drama in that? I want to see writhing and convulsing!
Because I'm sick like that. >:(
Quote from: GrimmVision on Apr 29, 2024, 01:11:42 PMMy post wasn't to say that you absolutely shouldn't root for Dillon. Heck, I kinda do by the end because he's a bettered person and actually proves it. Without him, Ripley wouldn't have accomplished anything in Alien 3. But, clearly there are a ton of moral intricacies in rooting for someone who has a past which includes killing and raping even though they've seemingly moved past what they've done.
It's evident that it's causation for dilemma. Some people even go so far as to making fan edits wanting to remove Dillon's character flaws because they'd rather Dillon be a morally good character, someone to root for without those second guesses entering the back of their mind.
Rooting for Dillon really depends on moral stances and those can be so intricate that they can even facilitate contradictions. I also root for David because he's a well written, nuanced, and exciting villain so :P
I do believe Dillon is a well written character because he's flawed and not a cookie cutter cutout.
Rooting for Dillon isn't difficult because he's a poster child for rehabilitation.
Clearly not everyone agrees.
Quote from: Project A34K on Apr 29, 2024, 10:00:53 PMFYI the 'Image' section of the website will go live in a few hours, which details a significant change to this version. Truth be told I'm fairly nervous of the community's reaction... Again, a delicate hand.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMDdkcjAyb2FhdXc4ZHY1NTBleDJuaHZwN3BhbWFkYmU5NHl6dWNhNSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dxPBN4w3LnrUJHnw7Q/source.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 29, 2024, 10:03:40 PMMy problem with the ox is that it's already dead when it pops. Where's the drama in that? I want to see writhing and convulsing!
Because I'm sick like that. >:(
It's not that I'm cruel to animals or anything, but even if the ox were alive...there's something about the dogs suffering that always makes me sad and give me goosebumps at the same time (the dog scene in THE THING also comes to mind :-\). Nothing beats the dog imo :'(
Dog scene in The Thing aka one of the best (if not THE best) horror scenes of all time.
Image section is now live (https://www.a34k.net/image)
I really dig it.
Like the man who jumped off the skyscraper said, half way down...
So far, so good
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 29, 2024, 11:31:15 PMDog scene in The Thing aka one of the best (if not THE best) horror scenes of all time.
There was resistance to doing the dog in Alien 3 because of comparisons to The Thing.
Quote from: Project A34K on Apr 30, 2024, 12:59:56 AMLike the man who jumped off the skyscraper said, half way down...
So far, so good
I'm not sure the red and the volumetric lighting is strictly necessary but I can't say I hate it.
Interesting about the frame edge on the theatrical. I'm guessing it's an artefact of cutting film vs digital.
Yeah i'm liking all that.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 30, 2024, 02:30:44 AMInteresting about the frame edge on the theatrical. I'm guessing it's an artefact of cutting film vs digital.
Yeah. It will be the cement splices at each cut thickening the film as it passes through the scanning gate, which is allowing some slight movement of the film image as it is scanned and possibly some loss of focus too. Why it happened in this instance and not other films is another question. Perhaps some operator error in the scan.
BTW, learning that OP's solution is to cut out frames and resync sound breaks my heart. Even a single frame lost makes a difference. Terry Rawlings will be spinning in his grave.
TC
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 29, 2024, 07:18:20 PMQuote from: BringbackJonesy! on Apr 29, 2024, 05:21:59 PMI see...
Read the comment just above yours.
Yeah, I eventually saw it....but not until
just after I posted mine which was being typed out at around the same time .
@ Project A34K - I see that you've given the 'Xeno-vision' shots a red hue (and added running sound effects too!). Sounds like it could be an effective juxtaposition to the overall brown hues of the rest of the footage at that point.
By the way, one of the little things that made 15MaF's edit so effective was the dripping 'drool' added to the shot of the alien approaching Ripley immediately before the iconic close-up of the suddenly drooling head - it can be seen in the pic at the bottom of the link I posted on page 4.
Perhaps you could consider adding that neat touch too, as it doesn't seem to feature in your trailer.
You've put some good effort into your site too, and I'll certainly be interested to check out your version eventually.
Quote from: TC on Apr 30, 2024, 03:42:04 AMBTW, learning that OP's solution is to cut out frames and resync sound breaks my heart. Even a single frame lost makes a difference. Terry Rawlings will be spinning in his grave.
TC
Hundreds, shortening the film by seconds.
But the rest of the film is getting cut anyway, so not a great difference.
Quote from: Project A34K on Apr 30, 2024, 12:33:45 AMImage section is now live (https://www.a34k.net/image)
I think the updated POV shots are a sick touch! Nice work dude
Love the filter for the Alien vision as well. And thank you for listening to the community and leaving the crucial scene with Dillon. If all of the narrative changes you decided on are what's on your site now, this may be the definitive version of Alien 3 for a great number of fans!
Agreed...
Wait is the ending a queen burst or no?
It is.
Sweet, i just really dig the burster effect on that one.
Quote from: Still Collating... on Apr 30, 2024, 10:53:56 PMLove the filter for the Alien vision as well. And thank you for listening to the community and leaving the crucial scene with Dillon. If all of the narrative changes you decided on are what's on your site now, this may be the definitive version of Alien 3 for a great number of fans!
Feedback is always welcome. I can't guarantee I'll always side with it, but I'll always be open to the argument. I've spent a lot of time on this, and while it's basically made to fit my own idealized version of the film (as much as that's possible), I really want the fan community to enjoy it as well. My reasons for cutting the Dillon line were short-sighted and superficial, and you guys made compelling arguments that convinced me. Since I've changed it back I haven't had any second thoughts.
Also yes, the Queen chest-burster is in this version, and the effects have been reworked in those shots too. If you want a sneak peek, there are stills on the 'Help Needed' (https://www.a34k.net/help-needed) section of the website.
FYI the 'Sound' (https://www.a34k.net/sound) section of the website just went live, and the site is now complete, for anyone who's curious. There are a couple of other changes detailed in there.
I really like the light effects in Alien vision.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 30, 2024, 04:38:41 AMQuote from: TC on Apr 30, 2024, 03:42:04 AMBTW, learning that OP's solution is to cut out frames and resync sound breaks my heart. Even a single frame lost makes a difference. Terry Rawlings will be spinning in his grave.
TC
Hundreds, shortening the film by seconds.
But the rest of the film is getting cut anyway, so not a great difference.
Yeah, I'm probably being a bit precious about it. Afterall, the project is an underground pirate exercise. In this context, complaining about the artistic integrity of the filmmakers being flouted (in this case, the film editor) is a bit silly.
So putting that aside, I just feel that the solution to the problem makes things worse, not better.
It's not the cumulative effect of all the frame deletions that bother me, it's that film editors place their cuts for every single shot with great precision. To say that trimming frames off (even single frames) makes no difference is just plain wrong.
TC
As an editor, if I realised the last frame of every other shot had an odd issue I wouldn't be precious about them getting cut.
Outside of the tedium of actually doing it, at least.
Quote from: SiL on May 02, 2024, 05:20:01 AMAs an editor, if I realised the last frame of every other shot had an odd issue I wouldn't be precious about them getting cut.
Outside of the tedium of actually doing it, at least.
I gave up editing a long time ago.
In fact, there was a time pre-90s when editing tape-based composite PAL, that the technology wouldn't guarantee single-frame precision for every cut because of the dreaded odd/even PAL-sequence requirement.
Basically, you had a 1-in-4 chance of your out-point and in-point being completely PAL compliant. If you were willing to allow a 180 degree-phase error (which meant a very slight picture jump horizontally) then you had a 1-in-2 chance of achieving the in- and out-points as desired. It was a nightmare for anyone like me who came from a film background and was used to cutting to exact frames.
Obviously, digital non-linear editing in the 90s and 2000s turned that around completely.
However, it's true that frame precision is not really an issue if the material is of a certain type: e.g. lots of wide shots cut together montage-style (maybe the film is a tourism promo featuring mainly picturesque landscapes - there was a time when I worked on lots of those).
But for up-tempo action and close-up dialogue scenes you really are trying to squeeze those cuts in at exact frames: either between or on camera/actor movements, and in close-up dialogue scenes you really have to watch out for eye-blinks and lip movements. Do you not find this the case?
TC
For dialogue I'm going more by feel, so it's rarely a matter of frame-by-frame precision. Yes, I'm trying to avoid blinking and facial twitches and lip movements that could draw attention to the cut, but that doesn't always require a great deal of precision.
My approach to editing is that there are many ways to work the material, and while I bring my creativity and sensibilities to the table and do what I feel works best, I don't often watch something back and think "This is the only way this could've been cut and anyone who disagrees is wrong".
Unless it's a scene where the material was junk and it's only by the grace of my editing that it's comprehensible at all, but mercifully those situations are rare.
@Project A34K Confused on how both of said philosophies intersect:
"The EEV hurls toward prison colony Fiorina 161 and breaks atmosphere, crashing into the ocean, causing catastrophic damage. A hole is torn in the side of the shuttle and it is flooded instantly. Hicks and Newt's cryotubes are damaged with the impact. Newt's floods in seconds and Hicks is crushed in the impact.
Neither wake up or suffer for a moment."
Which I absolutely agree with given what Clemens tells Ripley, I prefer to think he tells the truth.
"The reveal shot of Hick's body is from the Assembly Cut,
while the shots of Bishop and Newt are from the Theatrical Cut, although the information card that appears on screen for these shots has been removed. The audio has been reworked to fit the new cut and the sequence still ends with the shot of the oxen and the prisoners on the beach to suggest that's how they got the shuttle out of the water."
(https://i.imgur.com/nguhtMM.jpeg)
So... ?
Newt definitely suffered.
*In the theatrical cut.
I can't completely root for Dillon based on his rehabilitation. That label doesn't absolve one of such a barbaric crime. Using violence and forcibly entering another human is such a horrific act.
The victim can never escape such a violation.
You do not "escape" such violation, you just overcome it.
But awful people can do good, I can root for awful people doing good, whilst not seeing them as absolved.
Quote from: razeak on May 05, 2024, 12:55:30 AMI can't completely root for Dillon based on his rehabilitation. That label doesn't absolve one of such a barbaric crime. Using violence and forcibly entering another human is such a horrific act.
The victim can never escape such a violation.
Crimes plural.
But part of justice involves rehabilitation.
I like Dillon. Of course there's no "but" about what he's done. He's very frank and upfront about it - he doesn't hide it and neither does he take any pride in it - I can respect that. He also protects Ripley from being gang-raped and stands up for her on several occasions which also contributes to me liking him
Also
Spoiler
We're all gonna die, the only question is when. This is as good a place as any to take your first steps to heaven. The only question is how you check out. Do you wanna go on your feet? Or on your f**king knees, begging? I ain't much for begging! Nobody ever gave me nothin! So I say f**k that thing! Let's fight it!
Quote from: Kradan on May 05, 2024, 06:29:06 AMI like Dillon. Of course there's no "but" about what he's done. He's very frank and upfront about it - he doesn't hide it and neither does he take any pride in it - I can respect that. He also protects Ripley from being gang-raped and stands up for her on several occasions which also contributes to me liking him
Also
Spoiler
We're all gonna die, the only question is when. This is as good a place as any to take your first steps to heaven. The only question is how you check out. Do you wanna go on your feet? Or on your f**king knees, begging? I ain't much for begging! Nobody ever gave me nothin! So I say f**k that thing! Let's fight it!
Spoiler
The only question is why there are two only questions.
Haha, lol, I noticed that too. Still a great speech
Because they're questions for different things.
The Spanish Inquisition bursts in 'The only question is when and how. The TWO only questions are when and how!'
It's dumb and thankfully improved for the TC by cutting it back to one only question.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on May 05, 2024, 01:20:04 AMYou do not "escape" such violation, you just overcome it.
But awful people can do good, I can root for awful people doing good, whilst not seeing them as absolved.
I can vibe with that.
Quote from: SM on May 05, 2024, 04:23:03 AMQuote from: razeak on May 05, 2024, 12:55:30 AMI can't completely root for Dillon based on his rehabilitation. That label doesn't absolve one of such a barbaric crime. Using violence and forcibly entering another human is such a horrific act.
The victim can never escape such a violation.
Crimes plural.
But part of justice involves rehabilitation.
yes. That effort should be made.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on May 04, 2024, 04:18:10 PM@Project A34K
Confused on how both of said philosophies intersect:
"The EEV hurls toward prison colony Fiorina 161 and breaks atmosphere, crashing into the ocean, causing catastrophic damage. A hole is torn in the side of the shuttle and it is flooded instantly. Hicks and Newt's cryotubes are damaged with the impact. Newt's floods in seconds and Hicks is crushed in the impact. Neither wake up or suffer for a moment."
Which I absolutely agree with given what Clemens tells Ripley, I prefer to think he tells the truth.
"The reveal shot of Hick's body is from the Assembly Cut, while the shots of Bishop and Newt are from the Theatrical Cut, although the information card that appears on screen for these shots has been removed. The audio has been reworked to fit the new cut and the sequence still ends with the shot of the oxen and the prisoners on the beach to suggest that's how they got the shuttle out of the water."
https://i.imgur.com/nguhtMM.jpeg
So... ?
Regarding Hicks, I think his death would have been instantaneous. The gore aside I don't think it's much of a stretch that he was killed before his mind could process a conscious thought. Regarding Newt it's a horrific image, but the human body contorts in pretty awful ways after death. It's a leap, but I prefer to think she just never woke up.
She very clearly did in the theatrical cut image. Drowned people don't look like that.
If you want her to go out peacefully, use the AC's text screen.
And you'd need to use the same SE screens for the others too to make it fit.
Newt was clearly conscious and beating on the cryotube in the TC.
Yeah I strongly prefer the Special Edition in this instance.
Newt dying unconscious gives viewers at least some reconciliation while her drowning in her tube fully awake, screaming and kicking seems more fitting for Alien 3's brutal tone
I'm not saying I'm a fan of her TC death, but I was never really bothered by it either.
Undecided... I'll mull it over a while. I'm fairly open to making tweaks until the last minute.
If Alien 3 is so great for being edgy and grimdark, I say commit to that and keep the TC version. I'd even suggest finding the uncut autopsy scene and putting that back into it. No half measures.
Newt died drowning, awake and frantically banging on the cryotube.. Clemens was just trying to console Ripley. Alien 3 works best when it's at its most brutal.
I finally got a copy of the workprint, just going through it now. It's awful quality so none of the video will be viable, but there might be a nugget of audio I can pull out of it. The opening credit has no score so I might be able to reincorporate some of the original sound effects I had to replace.
The irony here is that Newt would have died more peacefully if Ripley had left her on LV-426 to get vaporized in the explosion. Ripley and Hicks would have lived too, since the queen would have never made it aboard the Sulaco to ooze out an egg.
Great job, Ripley.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 09, 2024, 04:33:35 PMAlien 3... so great... TC version.
You have made a few mistakes in your assumptions here, Assembly Cut's better recieved, and not as brutal towards children or animals, it's probable therefore that people find it great when it is more balanced in the brutality.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 09, 2024, 04:59:15 PMThe irony here is that Newt would have died more peacefully if Ripley has left her on LV-426 to get vaporized in the explosion. Ripley and Hicks would have lived too, since the queen would have never made it aboard the Sulaco to ooze out an egg.
Great job, Ripley.
Indeed... worst thing would be the initial horror of waking and seeing the facehugger.. after that she would be unconscious whilst face-hugged and probably wouldn't even feel the explosion... Ripley and crispy-Hicks get to play happy family and make their very own Newtwo, Bishop remains top of the line with valuable Xenomorph XX121 data to boot 😂 and all Prisoner's on Fury 161 get to wait for god.. Aaron goes home on the next rotation to his wife and kid, Clemens get to continue being melodramatic. 😂 Who is the real villain here? The Alien or Ripley?? (Marvel.. I'm drafting the next "What if..." story. Call me... )
And AR never happens.
Even more lives would have been spared if her shuttle had never been found by that deep salvage team.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 09, 2024, 04:59:15 PMThe irony here is that Newt would have died more peacefully if Ripley has left her on LV-426 to get vaporized in the explosion. Ripley and Hicks would have lived too, since the queen would have never made it aboard the Sulaco to ooze out an egg.
Great job, Ripley.
Dying in a nuclear explosion after a space monster forcingly gave you a blowjob hardly sounds peaceful
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 09, 2024, 06:16:23 PMEven more lives would have been spared if her shuttle had never been found by that deep salvage team.
OK, that's a fair point
And she ended up dying anyway just a few weeks or months later. Painfully.
Small update, I was able to get a copy of the workprint. The video was unsalvageable, which is a shame as it would have been fun to find a way to work in the "You'll need a bigger cage than that" line. I was, however, able to use the line of Aaron saying "Vent shaft 17" instead of "Vent shaft 22", so I no longer have to cut Andrews saying "Vent shaft 17" as the continuity error has been corrected.
Took a little bit of work as the audio wasn't great quality either, but it should be pretty seamless.
It's over an intercom so doesn't need to be great quality if you only use Aaron's WP audio.
Yep. He doesn't address Clemens in the workprint, so his opening with "Mr Clemens" is kept from the AC, so there was some tweaking needed to make the audio from both match, but it wasn't a difficult job. Pretty happy with the result.
You are f**king rad.
Thank you!
I'm fine with either version, and see true value in both, but for the thematic consistency of the brutality of Alien 3, I do prefer the TC version where Newt didn't go peacefully... Even though Ripley isn't aware of it, we do kinda feel guilty putting ourselves in Ripley's shoes, cause of all of the chaos that keeps following her.