which is more offensive?

Started by yhe1, Feb 26, 2019, 07:49:55 PM

Which is more offensive

David Creating the Alien
6 (19.4%)
Predators hunting for Autism and Iron man suits
25 (80.6%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author
which is more offensive? (Read 3,720 times)

CelticP

CelticP

#30
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 27, 2019, 11:02:39 AM
In the sense of actually being disrespectful to real-life people, then I'd say 'The Predator', but in terms of giving the middle-finger to the fans, the trophy goes to 'Covenant'.

Covenant was a warm hug for me.

Oasis Nadrama

Oasis Nadrama

#31
Well it was for Oram too.

SiL

SiL

#32
The movie doesn't idealise David; it says he's a mentally decaying psychopath with a God complex. He's an impotent, dickless incel raging against a world he resents. The only people who'd idealise David are other incels.

QuoteThe rapist depicted as beautiful, cunning and fascinating; as well as the deepest character in the movie: this is rape culture.
No, it's really not. The rape isn't normalised or undermined or considered "not that bad"; the rapist is clearly the villain, and repeatedly shown to be despicable. He's an homme fatal, if anything; someone who lures you in with his seeming charm and intellect, then turns on you.

Saying the film is condoning rape culture by portraying a rapist as a complex, multi-faceted character is incredibly disingenuous and more than a little asinine.

Oasis Nadrama

Oasis Nadrama

#33
I disagree pretty much completely, but I understand and respect your perspective.

SM

SM

#34
David is beautiful, cunning and fascinating.

He is also someone to be feared.

My understanding of rape culture -  maybe it's simplistic, or even wrong - is that rape is downplayed to the point of tacet condoning.

I don't see this in Covenant.

Kradan


SiL

SiL

#36
Quote from: SM on Feb 28, 2019, 06:19:27 AM
My understanding of rape culture -  maybe it's simplistic, or even wrong - is that rape is downplayed to the point of tacet condoning.

I don't see this in Covenant.
Because it's not there:

QuoteRape culture is a sociological concept for a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.

Rape is pervasive, thanks to the Alien, but it's not normalised. It's seen as a destructive, negative force. Portraying the rapist as something other than a disgusting, troglodytic villain is not condoning rape culture, hence disingenuous.

SM

SM

#37
Yep.

SiL

SiL

#38
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 06:18:34 AM
I disagree pretty much completely, but I understand and respect your perspective.
I understand why you feel uncomfortable with David's portrayal, but your perspective doesn't actually address the underlying issue of rape culture and what it is.

Oasis Nadrama

Oasis Nadrama

#39
If you insist, I'll clarify my argument.

Rape culture is a large, complicated topic, and I consider the idealization of rapists as as much a part of the problem as the normalization of rape, sexual agression and domestic violence, the blurring of the lines of consent, or the victim blaming. The idealization of serial killers and also all kinds of predators (rockstars/popstarts preying on young girls being dismissed as "just the way the industry is" for example) is also a major problem.

I never said rapists should be portrayed as cavemen and to leave the subject at that. I didn't specify such views on the forum, but like you from what I get, I'm convinced of... the opposite. Rapists need to be depicted with humanity and subtlety.

Sexual violence is a "natural" consequence of patriarchy, traditional gender roles, amatonormativity, the focus on sexuality, romantic stereotypes ("Never stop pursuing the one you love!"), not to mention the omnipresent culture of "unconsent", from children being pressured to give kisses and hugs to their relatives to people who just need to be "convinced" to do something good for them.
All of these toxic ideology converge in making sexual violence an integral part of most of our lives. We need to open the dialogue about it, in many ways, we need to be able to look at our own potentially harmful past behavior and to our loved ones' too, we need to reimagine the way we deal with agressions as a community, we need to understand restorative justice and its limitations, etc.
If we want to do better, we need to see rapists as human beings.

We also need to avoid their deshumanization because of the Hannah Arendt argument - developed for nazis, but also appropriate here. Arendt's idea was that we cannot just conceive nazis as "monsters" and remove them from humanity. Because if we do that, if we allow ourselves to think they are some kind of abnormality, of innate evil, we fail to understand what lead them to act like that in the first place, and we miss the main point, the main lesson of the Holocaust and previous atrocities: that anyone, given the wrong circumstances and the wrong education, can behave like a nazi. We'd also fail to get a grasp of the terrible acts perpetrated in our societies before the fascists even rose to power, and the terrible acts that keep being perpetrated (in the end, fascist regimes are just the natural result of systems of domination, but that's another story for another time).

If we just say "rapists are monsters", we fail to self-criticize, as individuals, as communities and as a society, and so the violence keeps coming. While there's so much work to do and so much to say.

But that's the thing, I don't see David as any kind of smart or even acceptable portrayal of a rapist. David is idealized more than anything, I don't see any any complexity in him, he was great in Prometheus, subtle and ambiguous, in Covenant he's just a caricature. The movie doesn't question his thoughts, actions and positions, it sublimates them, it makes them aesthetic for the sake of aesthetics (reminds me of the Hannibal TV series, great aesthetic success, not very good politically/ethically).

You see another thing in the movie. Obviously you see David as an interesting character and a good way to explore these issues. I won't try to convince you of the opposite; the movie is certainly fuzzy enough regarding these ideas for both interpretations to be perfectly valid. However, for me, la messe est dite.

CelticP

CelticP

#40
Quote from: SM on Feb 28, 2019, 06:19:27 AM
David is beautiful, cunning and fascinating.

He is also someone to be feared.

This. David is the best character besides Ripley this series has.

SiL

SiL

#41
No, I actually agree he's a caricature in the sequel.

I just also don't seem him as idealised. You're talking him up much more than the film does. I see him as a pathetic, rotting psychopath hiding beneath a very thin veneer of waning charm, which doesn't scream idolised, idealised rapist. His actions aren't celebrated or shown in good light. He's not portrayed as someone you'd want to emulate - unless, as I said, you were already an incel who wished they looked like Michael Fassbender.

You've written an excellent post, but ultimately, I don't see the film's shortcomings in David's portrayal as somehow tacitly endorsing rape culture. David's shit, but the message of the film remains that rape is a deadly, destructive weapon. That's the opposite of rape culture.

Meanwhile The Predator is fairly explicit in its deplorable portrayal of people with disabilities.

Oasis Nadrama

Oasis Nadrama

#42
Thank you for this last post, I understand more of your perspective now.

SiL

SiL

#43
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 07:15:53 AM
Thank you for this last post, I understand more of your perspective now.
Likewise. Thank you for taking the time to explain so eloquently.

Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#44
For the record, Alien Resurrection offended me more then either of them.

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