Originals: Still the best??

[SentryGun]

Hi

This may have been posted before in another thread, if so I apologise.

Having just saw The Predator last night, I was wondering what people think about the way that studios seem to need to upgrade/ introduce new versions of the original Alien/ Predator creatures with each new movie to make them bigger and badder.

Maybe I am too old, but I still prefer the originals. I think the new designs are a substitute for good stories and characters.

Less is definitely more as far as I am concerned.

Opinions?

[SM]

You're hardly alone there.

However, I'd prefer they try something new each time around rather than repeating the same thing - even if it doesn't come off.

[whiterabbit]

HA! Lightning rarely if ever hit twice. Although I do prefer Aliens; both Alien and Predator are two of the greatest movies ever made and indeed are the best.

You can't ever repeat something. All you can do is make it again with a new crew.

[Wysps]

Hi

This may have been posted before in another thread, if so I apologise.

Having just saw The Predator last night, I was wondering what people think about the way that studios seem to need to upgrade/ introduce new versions of the original Alien/ Predator creatures with each new movie to make them bigger and badder.

Maybe I am too old, but I still prefer the originals. I think the new designs are a substitute for good stories and characters.

Less is definitely more as far as I am concerned.

Opinions?

Absolutely. I gather that part of it is bad story telling, with maybe a mixture of fear (how far is too far in portraying Predator mythos and characterization) and a general lack of knowledge of the franchise (how much do directors and screenplay writers actually know about the franchise and the Predator works of other creators). Also throw in the fact that most people don't see the classic Predator as "scary" anymore, and there's just so much ripping and tearing that we can see on screen before the gore becomes tasteless. Yeah, I think all this together makes coming up with good sequel more difficult, but not impossible by any means.

I prefer them trying new ideas with sequels instead of rehashing the old stuff, but there is a point where if it's too original, you lose the spirit of the franchise. That's what I believe happened with The Predator.

[marrerom]

I actually think that as far as the Alien is concerned its later designs have been the best. Specifically, I loved how it was portrayed in Covenant. It reminded me of Nosferatu in its weird and inhuman movements, especially when they were in the hangar at the end of the film. My favorite design is actually the one they used for the Alien: Isolation as it combines the best of the original Giger Alien and ADI's Resurrection Aliens.

[The Old One]

In terms of Alien purely on design I definitely think the original is the ultimate basis for the principles of the creature.
In terms of a combination of design and representation I believe Isolation is unsurpassed.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

The Original (ALIEN) is my favorite one although I prefer the stature, stance and leg design of the Alien from A3. Even though I'm not a big fan of the ant/termite concept when it comes to Aliens, having Queens and all, I must say that they did an excellent job with Her Majesty in ALIENS - as the latest addition and the new big baddie she did her part and then some.

I don't care much for the ridgeheads or the clones, and the newborn was interesting but really shouldn't have had eyes (made it look like a puppy). The protomorph was too much of a CGI concoction and the neomorphs felt like they belonged to some other series altoghether (like "Evil Dead" - check out the Eligos demon).

[SentryGun]

It just feels like the newer movies are replacing suspense, tension, horror etc. with spectacle and increased gore.

The original Alien was kept in the shadows, only seen in glimpses. Cameron did the same with the Alien drones ( Queen aside ). The original Predator was kept to brief appearances for most of the movie ( well, 70% . . . ish ).

Now it's full reveal after a couple of minutes, lots of CGI, new bigger, badder creatures, increased gore. It's like the series' are being dumbed down for current audiences.

There is still so much that can be done with the Alien and Predator universes without the invention of new creatures. It just takes the studio to actually put a bit of thought and care into these movies.     

Maybe it's just me, like Ash, us older models always were a bit twitchy!

[Russ]

Maybe its because of trends in screenwriting? In Alien and Aliens nothing action packed happens for ages (I guess SM can say when the inciting incidents are and all that stuff), but for maybe half-an-hour, its just the Nostromo crew talking and arguing or Ripley having as shit time from the company.

Predator I'll grant you is a little different, but in the cases of both franchises, the characters are great - cliched now, but then not so much. You know who these people are and you care about them. And there's heaps of tension built in (even if its as Honest Trailers points out, people quietly looking at trees).

Is it the case that writers these days are following the beats and that means that shit has to happen and fast? So as Sentry Gun, suspense et al are being replaced with spectacle.

I've not seen "The Predator" yet (I should go tonight, actually) - I can't speak for that one. BUT, I will defend "Predators" - OK, it was very (very) similar to the first one (very very very similar. A virtual remake in fact) but again, the characters were good.

They WEREN'T (in my view) carbon copies of Dutch's squad, the alien setting was good and I think the only real mis-step was the inclusion of Fishburne's character. I liked the idea, but I thought that whilst he's a brilliant actor (he is) he was physically not right for that role.

I liked the bleak ending, I liked that Royce was morally ambiguous (he had an arc!), I liked that Topher Grace was how he was. And again, that one took some time to get going. And parachute opening sequence was ace.

[SentryGun]

Maybe its because of trends in screenwriting?

Is it the case that writers these days are following the beats and that means that shit has to happen and fast?

I think you have asked good questions here. Are the writers working under direction from the studio though? Probably. Rebooting ( I hate that term! ) franchises is a big thing at the moment. So it could be that the writers are being directed to forego slow build ups in favour of full reveals, instant action and new creatures. I wonder is this a reflection on current movie going audiences ( and possibly society in general )?

Also I really liked Predators and agree with what you said about it. Although I think that the story could have been told with 3 "classic" Predators as opposed to the bigger, darker versions.

[Wysps]

I just think these films may be struggling with their identity and place in today's movie landscape.  They had an identity that I assume they felt wasn't quite working anymore, so they've moved on to copy the feeling of other successful films - unfortunately those films have nothing in common with Predator, save for the central idea that "two sides are fighting".  The first Predator was so intimate with the jungle setting, the small group of soldiers being picked off, the final fight with Arnie using his wits and brawn.  The film was truly built around suspense and tension - and ultimately, the character's survival.  That's not to say that Predator can't work on a grander scale, but when we start focusing on crashing spaceships and screaming crowds, it loses the sense of what made the Predator so great to begin with, IMO.  I wouldn't mind watching a movie with Predators that's like this, but not exactly marketed as a "Predator movie". 

[Immortan Jonesy]

I just think these films may be struggling with their identity and place in today's movie landscape.  They had an identity that I assume they felt wasn't quite working anymore, so they've moved on to copy the feeling of other successful films - unfortunately those films have nothing in common with Predator, save for the central idea that "two sides are fighting".  The first Predator was so intimate with the jungle setting, the small group of soldiers being picked off, the final fight with Arnie using his wits and brawn.  The film was truly built around suspense and tension - and ultimately, the character's survival.  That's not to say that Predator can't work on a grander scale, but when we start focusing on crashing spaceships and screaming crowds, it loses the sense of what made the Predator so great to begin with, IMO.  I wouldn't mind watching a movie with Predators that's like this, but not exactly marketed as a "Predator movie".

Yeah, too many things (and even dumb things) happening in the same movie setting. The Alien prequels may be struggling with their identity as well (especially Prometheus), but for me such movies are like a guilty pleasure as they tried to build an "intellectual" concept from the Alien myth, with the exception of the ancient astronauts mumbo jumbo of course. The Predator on the other hand, it feels like an hybrid between two current Hollywood hobbies: cinematic universe & bigger and badder fetishism.

[SM]

Maybe its because of trends in screenwriting? In Alien and Aliens nothing action packed happens for ages (I guess SM can say when the inciting incidents are and all that stuff), but for maybe half-an-hour, its just the Nostromo crew talking and arguing or Ripley having as shit time from the company.

I think the stuff about 'nothing much happens for half an hour' in Alien is a bit of a myth.  The first major event is the facehugger attacking Kane, but before this you've already established the characters, the mystery of the signal (SOS or warning), and spooked the audience with the planet and the Derelict, so they're on edge.  Aliens takes even longer but again you've hit all the above points in a different way.

When Riddles did the Directors Cut, he trimmed a lot of scenes to make it quicker for a modern audience.  One of these days I'll show Alien to the kids, and gauge their reaction.

I just think these films may be struggling with their identity and place in today's movie landscape.

I said much the same when Covenant came out.  Back in the 1980s there were Alien clones out the wazoo.  The last 20 years though you can look at Event Horizon, Sunshine or Life - all of which owe a debt to Alien; and none were terribly successful.

There's just not the appetite for space monsters unless they're attacking Earth on masse.

[whiterabbit]

There's just not the appetite for space monsters unless they're attacking Earth on masse.

You forgot to mention "In all it's repetitive cgi glory".

[The Cruentus]

You're hardly alone there.

However, I'd prefer they try something new each time around rather than repeating the same thing - even if it doesn't come off.

Ageed, that is why Predators didn't do so well with some fans, I mean there was probably other issues too but one of them was that it retreaded old ground. However, some new things are not entirely good either.
This new movie is proof of that, well technically the DNA thing is not completely new, its from the original concept of the previous film. They should have taken that as a hint to leave that idea alone.