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Author Topic: Why did the movies fail?  (Read 6671 times)

TheGreatSpoondini
May 09, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
Topic on: May 09, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
Q
So I wanted to post up a discussion on why many of us feel the AVP movies failed.
- Plot?
- Characters?
-Visual Effects?
- All of it?

So my opinion sources for a little bit of all things. But my biggest thing is I felt that AVP was too....kid friendly? hardly any blood and gore while AVPR sort of made up for it. Another big dislike was the lack of attention to timeframes to allow room for the lore of the universe to set it. They made it seem like the facehugger to full blown Xeno took ....maybe an hour? Covenant did the same sort of thing but I wont even start with that. My last view I feel strongly on is that both the Predators and Xenos were so fake and little detail was taken into consideration on both species. The Predators are supposed to move swiftly and viciously not like bulky tanks... and the Xenos were mostly CGI and not practical effects.... gross and I think the best thing about the OG movies is that you see very little of them... the level of stalking... fear.... mystery... it leaves the mind to wonder and get built up for something. I feel like these movies were very rushed with a plotline that sucked. Although AVP story wise was not bad AVPR was a zombie apocalypse just with Xenos and highschool love and too many characters that no one gave a crap about.

Anyways .... Fire away people what do you think? How can we make this franchise better again?


SM
May 09, 2018, 11:37:10 AM
Reply #1 on: May 09, 2018, 11:37:10 AM
Q
The first one had the characters behind the audience the first half, so they seem dumb.  Lex and Sebastian were dull and had no development.  Weyland was a kinda interesting.

There's very little actual versing with only two fights - and the first one - which should've been entree, was better than the second - the supposed main course.

The characters aren't really active in the story until Lex helps Scar at the end.  They mostly just wander around in the dark, then run around in the dark.


SiL
May 09, 2018, 11:57:50 AM
Reply #2 on: May 09, 2018, 11:57:50 AM
Q
They're both immature. The first is childish, the second had the mentality of a 14 year old.

The characters are passive in both. They have no real influence of the plot.

The fights are lacklustre, there's no real tension, the dialogue is awful, and all the good bits in either are taken from other movies.


SM
May 09, 2018, 12:30:23 PM
Reply #3 on: May 09, 2018, 12:30:23 PM
Q
Oh yeah, didn't get to the second one.

Don't need to now.


TheGreatSpoondini
May 09, 2018, 02:00:29 PM
Reply #4 on: May 09, 2018, 02:00:29 PM
Q
The only good think about AVPR was Wolf even though I think he had too much face time and not enough mystery behind him ... he was a bad a$$ and really acted the part of an older experienced pred


SiL
May 09, 2018, 02:07:41 PM
Reply #5 on: May 09, 2018, 02:07:41 PM
Q
He would've been dead in ten minutes if any Alien had thought to do something like, I don't know,  try to hurt him.

Wolf was cloaked in impenetrable plot armour. A random metal beam did more damage to him for 90 minutes of film than any Alien. At every opportunity the Aliens did everything they could to not harm him in any way, despite him literally standing in defenceless positions while surrounded by them.

He struck some cool poses. That's it. Chalk it up to another thing the movies got wrong.


SM
May 09, 2018, 08:35:05 PM
Reply #6 on: May 09, 2018, 08:35:05 PM
Q
Yeah, what was actually "bad a$$" about him?


The Cruentus
May 09, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Reply #7 on: May 09, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Q
I have been saying that in other AVP orientated threads such as the "which Predator is most bada**", a lot of folk are naming Wolf as most bada** for some reason, though it is is their choice but in my opinion Wolf was not bada**, his foes were useless. If he had been up against actual Aliens instead of those weird bobbing head cannon fodder in Requiem, he would either be seriously injured ten times over or just plain dead. If you were to define someone by the quality of their enemies then Wolf would be found wanting.

As for why the movies failed in my opinion;
First film
*The characters were not developed enough though I agree Weyland was interesting. One or two characters could have been interesting but were killed off too soon.
*pg-13 (gore is not everything but if you are going to have two R rated franchise monsters duking it out then the tone of where they come from needs to be respected, the rating also meant that you don't really see any good deaths as it either cuts away, is too close to see anything or bloodless.)
*Poor battles. Personally I expected more than a wrestling match.
*Life-cycle speed.
*Unnaturally long tail for Grid when he killed Gill.
*Predator design was too bulky and the Aliens were not that much better.


I found the ADR to be a little off putting as well,  sometimes everyone's voices just stands out too much, like the scene where Sebastien tells Lex about the hunter's moon.
There is also an inconsistency in slow mo; Just something that I have noticed recently actually.
To elaborate, Rousseau had her gun out ready and in proper safety position, all she had to do was raise her hands, aim and shoot but she fails because the facehugger is apparently too fast, but then we get Miller who is cocooned and is struggling to get Verheiden's gun, the facehugger actually leaps into the air before he can pull the gun from the holster yet he somewho has time to get proper grip (as he was pulling the gun by the trigger) and shoot it. The egg was also closer to him whereas the egg that got Rousseau was across the chamber so Miller should have had less time. Its not really an issue but its something I have noticed now and it stands out for me because it seems to me that a trained person should have had better luck than Miller who managed to shoot it out of the air in what is essentially "firing from the hip" with his eyes closed too.  :P

I will say this for AVP, it had good concepts and it could have been a decent film. At least its more enjoyable that Requiem.

The second film...(sigh) where to start?
*Dumb Predators
*New life-cycle.
*Characters
*Dialogue
*Ironically too much gore. This film really over-compensated.
*Useless Aliens.

Wolf looked good but he was incompetent.

They should have kept this film small in terms of Alien threat, just have the four adult Aliens and a Predalien, it would given them more focus and they would have to be made a better threat otherwise they would all be gone too soon.
 




Huggs
May 10, 2018, 02:26:15 AM
Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 02:26:15 AM
Q
Well, they both succeeded in their "general purpose". They were good popcorn movies that made their budgets back and then some extra. One of them (avpr) just pulled it off better than the other because it was allowed to have mature content. The only adult thing in avp1 was the condom line. I fully understand other people's complaints about the movies not following established lore and being failures. But, two types of vicious Alien creatures turned loose on earth would simply unleash havoc on both us and each other, and this is what we saw in the AVP movies. So it was honest enough.

I think the main issue here is that no film in either the Alien or Predator series has come close to equaling the sheer quality and horror/fun of the originals lately. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Predator 1+2. These films were the absolute dream treatment for these creatures. They were well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development. They managed to be philosophical, but still retained true respect for the monster, and a desire to thrill the audience. When films of such quality exist in a series, anything less just isn't going to fly with certain people. I for one enjoy both uncut AVP's because they gave me exactly what I personally wanted. Good solid popcorn flicks featuring these two creatures duking it out and crushing everything in their way. AVPR was just more honest about the results.

I suppose the best way to put it would be thusly. When I want to "think" when watching a movie, I'll watch Tom Hank's latest historical drama, or a good classic film. When I want to "feel" something when watching a movie, like fear or excitement, I'll watch AVPR, Terminator, Godzilla, Pacific Rim, etc. It's two different tastes, yet both have their place, and both serve a purpose. If one fails to be the other, it's just because my expectations were in the wrong place. I wouldn't jump in a Chevy Malibu, and expect to have the same experience I'd get from a Jeep Rubicon. This is not to say that there aren't movies that are flat out bad. Because there are. Prometheus and Covenant for example.  ;)


SM
May 10, 2018, 02:50:32 AM
Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 02:50:32 AM
Q
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.


Huggs
May 10, 2018, 03:10:14 AM
Reply #11 on: May 10, 2018, 03:10:14 AM
Q
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

Not necessarily. Predator 2 was like Aliens for the predator universe. It was loud, scary and in your face. Gunfights, chases, showdowns, etc. But it felt like a legitimate predator movie. The characters were a mixture of wild, obnoxious, far out, honorable, crazy, etc. But they were overall decent characters and suited the film. Unlike the characters from either of the AVP's.

Alien 3 was a solid entry. It went to a dark place, but did it right. It was indeed hardcore, and the main characters were well written. Dillon, Andrews, 85, Clemens, etc. were not the best the universe has seen, but they fit well in the story and their performances and dialogue suited them. It was a gothic horrorfest, and I loved it. So to me, it is indeed "well crafted hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development".

There is no doubt that Alien 3 and Predator 2 are on the lower ends of the greatness scale. I knew that going in. But in the context of which is more faithful to the lore, feels right, etc. they beat the AVP's all day long. Different times, different purposes.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 03:14:28 AM by Huggs »

Local Trouble
May 10, 2018, 03:12:24 AM
Reply #12 on: May 10, 2018, 03:12:24 AM
Q
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

He was probably referring to the assembly cut of Alien 3.


Huggs
May 10, 2018, 03:16:25 AM
Reply #13 on: May 10, 2018, 03:16:25 AM
Q
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

He was probably referring to the assembly cut of Alien 3.

Yes indeed. Haven't watched any other version since it became a thing.


SM
May 10, 2018, 03:18:37 AM
Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 03:18:37 AM
Q
Further undermined.  :o


 

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