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Author Topic: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...  (Read 14698 times)

Xenomrph
May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
Reply #30 on: May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
Q
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".



They are similar, but they are not the same. :)

Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.

There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions, don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.

Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.


windebieste
May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
Reply #31 on: May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
Q
It's not even the same vehicle.  Why is this a problem? 

The only issue - and at this stage, and it's not a conflict - is how that derelict got onto LV-426 in the first place?  Especially with the cargo it's carrying, how do those eggs get on board..?   That notion is still a long way from being explained to us.

This series isn't complete yet - and there's still a ton of questions yet to be answered.  What's more, there's no evidence that suggests David is the Space Jockey.  Who dreamt this bullshit up, Huh?  Some ding-dong fan did.  As we see in 'ALIEN: Covenant' He's no longer using the Dreadnought to get around between stars at the end of 'ALIEN: Covenant' and with at least one more movie heading our way, that's a lot of opportunity to explain what's actually happening with this particular mystery.  After all, if that vehicle could fly, he'd transport his creations in it, right?  Makes sense, huh..?

For all we know, the Engineers did create the Alien 2000 years ago and David followed in their footsteps.  Hell, he may have even discovered their technology for doing so by living in the Engineer city for 10 years.  The derelict may have been on Acheron as long as we have been led to believe from the beginning.

There's still a lot we don't know. People should do a little more thinking about what we have been presented with before pronouncements made that could easily amount to false connections based on their ill conceived biases.

-Windebieste.


Xenomrph
May 14, 2017, 06:19:08 AM
Reply #32 on: May 14, 2017, 06:19:08 AM
Q
There's still a lot we don't know. People should do a little more thinking about what we have been presented with before pronouncements made that could easily amount to false connections based on their ill conceived biases.

-Windebieste.
Wisdom.


YutaniDitch
May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AM
Reply #33 on: May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AM
Q
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".



They are similar, but they are not the same. :)

Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.

There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions, don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.

Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.

The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...

Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:44:21 AM by YutaniDitch »

Xenomrph
May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AM
Reply #34 on: May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AM
Q
Quote
The design PROVE they are from the same race
How?

Quote
Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design.
Why not?

Quote
The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it. :)


Russ840
May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AM
Reply #35 on: May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AM
Q
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".



They are similar, but they are not the same. :)

Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.

There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions, don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.

Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.

The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...

Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...

 
How is his first comment debunked by himself? Also. How can "Scientifically" the queen not come later?  Explain please

As far as i am concerned, the queen can be an evolution a generation down. I mean. Its not a stretch. Going by Covenant, the Xenos creation has its origins in the Black goo, which is a mutagen. As stated. It does a large variety of stuff so why not speed up the evolution of the Xeno's 


Le Celticant
May 14, 2017, 07:25:52 AM
Reply #36 on: May 14, 2017, 07:25:52 AM
Q
There's not just the outside of the ship itself that differs.
The space jockey/engineer is different, the Orrery is different, the chair is different, corridors are different, the carge is different, the size is different (the derelict is vastly bigger). The entire technology in fact seems different, it looks like it is "inspired" from the Space Jockey of Alien but that it's not really the same specie as things look too sophisticated and very "human" in their design while alien clearly had unknown Alien technology.

So there are at least two ways to see this:

-The Engineer and Space jockey are not related at all but the engineer were inspired by the Space Jockey from Alien.
-The Engineer are the Space Jockey, in which case then, 30 years later, it makes sense to not just "reproduce" but to make new design which is perfectly understandable but also necessary because Giger isn't in shape to comes up with a lot of things and Ridley (like every director) must be bored to hell to just "reproduce" something without having a creative input.

And I do think it's option B. Then is the Juggernaut the Derelict? That's another answer and I don't think so.
Will we see a Juggernaut or a Derelict design crash on LV-426? I do believe it'll be the juggernaut one but it doesn't change a thing, it's just a small design change, main characteristics are there and are completely similar (U shape, three vagina entrance, Orrery, Cargo) so yeah it's different but it's intended to be the same.

---

Concerning the Canon, they absolutely made AVP and AVP-R Canon.
Cos Prometheus and Covenant are kind of a remake of AVP and AVP-R, so it works more or less.  ::)


Xenomrph
May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Reply #37 on: May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Q
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.


Le Celticant
May 14, 2017, 08:04:06 AM
Reply #38 on: May 14, 2017, 08:04:06 AM
Q
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.

-Ship crash/arrives at planet and create panic with a lot of monsters.
-Chet/David making multiple baby monsters among population.
-Alien in the forest (I love this title).
-Alien LifeCycle/Reproductive method messed up to favor a poor script to move the narrative forward.
(I'm sure I'm gonna find so much more if you leave me time to digest the film and watch it again).

I was mostly joking but still, there are common points I disliked in AVP-R and I found myself surprised to see them in A:C seeing how Ridley loves AVP.
Otherwise it's still just another remake of Alien (1979) with Prometheus continuation added and AVP-R "action/decision" style.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 08:06:18 AM by Le Celticant »

Russ840
May 14, 2017, 08:10:00 AM
Reply #39 on: May 14, 2017, 08:10:00 AM
Q
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.

-Ship crash/arrives at planet and create panic with a lot of monsters.
-Chet/David making multiple baby monsters among population.
-Alien in the forest (I love this title).
-Alien LifeCycle/Reproductive method messed up to favor a poor script to move the narrative forward.
(I'm sure I'm gonna find so much more if you leave me time to digest the film and watch it again).

I was mostly joking but still, there are common points I disliked in AVP-R and I found myself surprised to see them in A:C seeing how Ridley loves AVP.
Otherwise it's still just another remake of Alien (1979) with Prometheus continuation added and AVP-R "action/decision" style.

Lol ok. If you like


Infected
May 14, 2017, 08:33:48 AM
Reply #40 on: May 14, 2017, 08:33:48 AM
Q
Nobody wirh influence survived AVP incidents, and those who survived and try to tell the world, are laughed at in their faces.
If you survived AVP:R, and you tell the press why your city was destroyed, and you start rambling about aliens with tails and acid instead of blood, and another alien policeman came to hunt them and settle things, i mean reallyyyyyy

Avp does exists, and we need a continuation of these movies, there is so much possible right now and we have so much material, the right person could easily make the best and biggest of them all.


yarko
May 14, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
Reply #41 on: May 14, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
Q
Some of you talk about canon as if the Alien universe REALLY exists somewhere and consequently HAS to follow some rules.
For me there is not such a thing as canon in the Alien movies. They are all the product of its time, and they tell the story the artists (and/or fox executives) involved though they wanted to tell in each moment. Of course the derelict is ancient in Alien 1 (million years old), the Space Jockey IS NOT a suit with a big bald man ancestor inside, and Queens do not exist. Aliens were brough to Earth by predators in AVP and AVPR, but never existed before 2104 in Alien Covenant. While I intensely love this saga and is my favourite thing in pop culture ever (followed closely by Star Wars) I don't feel the need to force each individual movie into a global canon, I enjoy each one for what it is. Same with the comics, videogames, novels...

I think it's fun to try to have a personal canon, just to play around with these ideas and stablish connections, but it's better not to take it to far. Canon leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to suffering... canon is the path to being a hater and hating each new thing published in your purposedly favourite fictional universe just because it doesnt follow your preestabilshed notions of what can and cannot be  ;D



YutaniDitch
May 14, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Reply #42 on: May 14, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Q
Quote
The design PROVE they are from the same race
How?

Quote
Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design.
Why not?

Quote
The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it. :)

Because that is how reality, logic and common sense work... Two different interstellar species would not have such similar ships design interior, exterior,, etc... I cannot believe I am wasting time explaining the obvious... No two species are alike for many, many reasons... And this is no interpretation, it is a statement of fact, of science... That is like saying there is another human race out there in space... The basic darwinian laws of evolution negate it... I cannot believe I am actually having to state the obvious...😂

No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".



They are similar, but they are not the same. :)

Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.

There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions, don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.

Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.

The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...

Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...

 
How is his first comment debunked by himself? Also. How can "Scientifically" the queen not come later?  Explain please

As far as i am concerned, the queen can be an evolution a generation down. I mean. Its not a stretch. Going by Covenant, the Xenos creation has its origins in the Black goo, which is a mutagen. As stated. It does a large variety of stuff so why not speed up the evolution of the Xeno's

Very simple: in nature, no species evolves in mere decades nor does an egg exist without an egg layer... ALIENS stated the eggs had been laid by an egg layer, a Queen... And the black goo is a scientific joke, with an MO all over the place... That is like saying Ebola or any other virus would mutate some, kill and paralyze others, even within the same species... We had a pile of Engineers with chestbursters, a decapitated Engineer dying from an airborne pathogen, clearly indicating that there weren't only black goo vases but also probably eggs there and the PROMETHEUS mural proves it by showing facehuggers impregnating Engineers much like the ALIEN mural did... So, I ask again, which was firsts, the egg or the chicken...? And lazily written deus ex machina ploys like the black goo are hardly evidence of anything but Ridley contradicting himself even within his own movies... He shows facehuggers in one movie and in the sequel, contradicts it right off the gate...

Prometheus retconned Weyland Corp. That was enough to confirm AVP as not canon. But I find it amusing that people believed they could co-exist and forced them together by inventing elements such as Guy Pierce being Charles Bishop's son etc. Now instead we have the David created/recreated the Alien argument which is essentially the same thing.

Not really... Peter Weyland may well just be a descendant of Charles Bishop Weyland... Also, we see the genesis of Yutani at the end of AVPR, but since Peter Weyland and his only daughter died on LV-223, there is a power vaccuum in Weyland Corp, probably facilitating the purchase of it by the Yutani corporation... None negates the existence of the other... And since the movies, the CANON, does not negate it, yes, AVP and AVPR are still canon unless specifically stated otherwise either by FOX execs or ulterior movies..which has not been the case SO FAR....

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 11:31:06 AM by YutaniDitch »

EJA
May 14, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
Reply #43 on: May 14, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
Q
Let's be honest, folks: Ridley's prequels are a joke.


DestinyCaptain
May 14, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
Reply #44 on: May 14, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
Q
I love reading all the arguments about this. The fact is at this point, nothing in Prometheus or Covenant excludes AVP and AVPR from continuity. Nothing. Nothing says definitively that there was no Weyland Corp or Charles Bishop Weyland before Peter. Nothing says there was no Xenomorph before Covenant. Nothing. You can certainly interpret what is said on screen how you like based on what you choose to believe. You can certainly take the words of Scott to be gospel based on what you choose to believe. However, until something is definitely stated on screen without ambiguity, these things are still open to be connected even if you personally don't like them or count them in your own private cannon. Prometheus does not go out of its way to say that Peter Weyland built the company from his dorm room at university after being born to the perpetually poor and often bankrupt Ron and Sally Weyland. Likewise nothing in Covenant says that our favorite little monster never ever existed in an original form and wasn't stored as a DNA template somewhere in a vault by super smart blue Ubermensch Humanoids with a god complex. It's a good thing at this point on that last one because if it did, it would remove one of the top two films in the series from canon and almost effectively nullify the best stuff about it. So, lets all hope Ridley figures it out for himself that this is not a good thing and that he's wrong yet again and he doesn't double down on this line of thinking and fully canonize it. Hopefully it will just continue on as one of the many interesting but wrong things he said like the time he tried to say that the events of Prometheus and Alien took place in our solar system because he was slightly confused about planetoids names and locations. Hopefully other, cooler heads can be brought in to help temper his goofier ideas going foreword. They aren't all golden. Remember how the big chap was supposed to rip Ripley's head off and talk in her voice? Yeah, that was a keeper...

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 02:19:14 PM by DestinyCaptain »

 

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