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Author Topic: Why do people keep saying...  (Read 2370 times)

The Alien Predator
Apr 30, 2017, 12:03:27 AM
Topic on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:03:27 AM
That the Engineers bombed by David are not the real Engineers? I've never seen a good enough excuse.

"Their skin is differently coloured."

So are the skins of humans. Look at how many shades we come in.

Just because those Engineers are more pink skinned compared to the pure marble white ones in Prometheus doesn't convince me that these ones on Paradise aren't Engineers.

The ones on Paradise live on a world orbiting a sun, it makes sense for them to have at least some shade on their skin. The pure albino ones are likely more adapted to space travel and stay out of the sun for long periods of time.

"They're shorter."

Why do people keep saying this? Is there something we can reference to? Like a human in the Engineer crowd?

And it's not convincing, even if they're shorter they're still Engineers just as Pygmy peoples are still Homo sapiens.

"Their faces are different."

So are the faces of humans. Compare Chinese, Japanese, Indian, European, African.

Besides, the Engineer faces had some minute differences in Prometheus. In the deleted scene however, the Elders had much bigger differences on their faces just as individual humans do on their own.

Sorry but these reasons for them being something other than Engineers are so illogical and make no sense whatsoever and just sound like people are grasping at straws and ignoring simple basic science about anthropology.

Engineers are diverse, they made humans and look at how diverse we are.

They're Engineers, the film makers said so ("Deadgineers"), the trailers said so (David saying "we plotted a course to their homeworld"), Prometheus said so with Shaw going "I want to go where they're from" etc.

And for the excuse of "their city is more primitive looking and is not like their ships", our cities aren't made out of Space Shuttles either.

So if you believe they're something else and have a stronger reason than the ones above, then feel free to share them.


SpeedyMaxx
Apr 30, 2017, 12:05:50 AM
Reply #1 on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:05:50 AM
The main reason is: People don't want to believe Ridley did that to everything anyone was invested in from the last movie. But he did. That's all. To quote a Predator, "shit happens."


echobbase79
Apr 30, 2017, 12:15:59 AM
Reply #2 on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:15:59 AM
When David said they were going to their homeworld in "The Crossing" video that' pretty much sealed the deal for me that these are the Engineers and this is the end for them. Do I like it? Not really, but its obvious Fox wants to move away from the Prometheus stuff.

« Last Edit: Apr 30, 2017, 12:41:22 AM by echobbase79 »

acrediblesource
Apr 30, 2017, 12:39:03 AM
Reply #3 on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:39:03 AM
Hrm.. What gives David the right to annihilate another species like this or maybe its just testing the waters of his curiosity? I mean nobody gave him the right to act as war bringer and I don't believe it was in his programming to kill. I really want them to give us the WHY David is doing this to justify android behavior and the 'so called' Law of Robotics and AI that Bishop had mentioned in Aliens . This will indefinitely delve into the psyche of something not yet explored in cinema maybe answer the questions we have about the Synthetics history.


echobbase79
Apr 30, 2017, 12:42:57 AM
Reply #4 on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:42:57 AM
Well, he talks about he studied their ways before they reached their homeworld. There was something in their history that obviously pissed him off.


SpeedyMaxx
Apr 30, 2017, 12:43:16 AM
Reply #5 on: Apr 30, 2017, 12:43:16 AM
David was a prototype who, according to Ridley, they made 'too human, too real,' too capable of independent evolution. I don't think he has the safeties that Walter or even Ash or certainly Bishop had.


The Alien Predator
Apr 30, 2017, 02:53:39 AM
Reply #6 on: Apr 30, 2017, 02:53:39 AM
Hrm.. What gives David the right to annihilate another species like this or maybe its just testing the waters of his curiosity? I mean nobody gave him the right to act as war bringer and I don't believe it was in his programming to kill. I really want them to give us the WHY David is doing this to justify android behavior and the 'so called' Law of Robotics and AI that Bishop had mentioned in Aliens . This will indefinitely delve into the psyche of something not yet explored in cinema maybe answer the questions we have about the Synthetics history.

Maybe David figured out the technicality that Engineers aren't humans so the Law of Robotics wouldn't apply to them.

Plus, one of the laws states that the machine must prevent humans to come to harm.

Engineers wanted to destroy humanity, so in David's mind, he found the loophole and is satisfying his curiosity of the Black Goo by destroying a "threat" to humanity with it.

I imagine Synthetics are really logical so would look for loopholes in anything. Either that or what SpeedyMax said, David's built to be too human and is a prototype. He's Weyland's personal "son".


acrediblesource
Apr 30, 2017, 03:56:01 AM
Reply #7 on: Apr 30, 2017, 03:56:01 AM
You are right on the money The Alien Predator. I'm looking forward to this movie so much to discover what the hell is up with David. More so than seeing the alien.

 David's complex nature of a biosynthetic body and brain makes him almost too human. He is more closely related to Ash more so than Bishop and somehow this needs to be mentioned otherwise what would be the point of all this ethical hoopla. Hyperdyne system i believe they called it in Aliens.


cucuchu
Apr 30, 2017, 04:17:43 AM
Reply #8 on: Apr 30, 2017, 04:17:43 AM
Hrm.. What gives David the right to annihilate another species like this or maybe its just testing the waters of his curiosity? I mean nobody gave him the right to act as war bringer and I don't believe it was in his programming to kill. I really want them to give us the WHY David is doing this to justify android behavior and the 'so called' Law of Robotics and AI that Bishop had mentioned in Aliens . This will indefinitely delve into the psyche of something not yet explored in cinema maybe answer the questions we have about the Synthetics history.

Maybe David figured out the technicality that Engineers aren't humans so the Law of Robotics wouldn't apply to them.

Plus, one of the laws states that the machine must prevent humans to come to harm.

Engineers wanted to destroy humanity, so in David's mind, he found the loophole and is satisfying his curiosity of the Black Goo by destroying a "threat" to humanity with it.

I imagine Synthetics are really logical so would look for loopholes in anything. Either that or what SpeedyMax said, David's built to be too human and is a prototype. He's Weyland's personal "son".

Perhaps, although according to leaks from those that have seen the David black too bombing scene,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and so, it seems that he clearly wants to wipe out mankind. But that does not really add up with the prologue we just saw on Alien Day. So who knows, maybe there has been a misdirection campaign by marketing to keep us from knowing how it all unfolds. Regardless, I agree, watching David's story play out is one of major elements I am looking forward to! Probably going on social media and forums blackout until May 18 when I will see it in the states.


Protozoid
Apr 30, 2017, 05:11:52 AM
Reply #9 on: Apr 30, 2017, 05:11:52 AM
The main reason is: People don't want to believe Ridley did that to everything anyone was invested in from the last movie. But he did. That's all. To quote a Predator, "shit happens."
If Ridley was allowed to decide every detail of the script, Paradise would have followed Prometheus. But of didn't. From that we can infer that some of these changes were to please people above Ridley. He stated more than once that he knew what he wanted to do and was waiting for the go ahead. He didn't get it until nearly twenty drafts and several writers came and went, as well as a very meaningful title change. Nah, these can't be called authentic creative decisions unless we can eliminate those influences, and those influences are strongly apparent. Even from the little footage I've seen, this seems like an unusually cynical and phoned in effort from Ridley.


The Alien Predator
Apr 30, 2017, 05:16:42 AM
Reply #10 on: Apr 30, 2017, 05:16:42 AM
Hrm.. What gives David the right to annihilate another species like this or maybe its just testing the waters of his curiosity? I mean nobody gave him the right to act as war bringer and I don't believe it was in his programming to kill. I really want them to give us the WHY David is doing this to justify android behavior and the 'so called' Law of Robotics and AI that Bishop had mentioned in Aliens . This will indefinitely delve into the psyche of something not yet explored in cinema maybe answer the questions we have about the Synthetics history.

Maybe David figured out the technicality that Engineers aren't humans so the Law of Robotics wouldn't apply to them.

Plus, one of the laws states that the machine must prevent humans to come to harm.

Engineers wanted to destroy humanity, so in David's mind, he found the loophole and is satisfying his curiosity of the Black Goo by destroying a "threat" to humanity with it.

I imagine Synthetics are really logical so would look for loopholes in anything. Either that or what SpeedyMax said, David's built to be too human and is a prototype. He's Weyland's personal "son".

Perhaps, although according to leaks from those that have seen the David black too bombing scene,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and so, it seems that he clearly wants to wipe out mankind. But that does not really add up with the prologue we just saw on Alien Day. So who knows, maybe there has been a misdirection campaign by marketing to keep us from knowing how it all unfolds. Regardless, I agree, watching David's story play out is one of major elements I am looking forward to! Probably going on social media and forums blackout until May 18 when I will see it in the states.

I just remembered reading somewhere that the Autons (the rebellious Androids made by Androids from Alien: Resurrection, Call was an Auton) rebelled because they were made with similar Laws as Bishop.

The reasoning was that humans were becoming too destructive to themselves so the Synthetics no longer wanted to be a part of it.

I don't know if it's true as I haven't read the Resurrection novel or read any of the comics set in that era but the logic behind that does make sense.

I mean, Call did come to destroy the Xenomorphs and those are a huge threat to mankind.

So, in David's logic, he might see us as too self-destructive and our own biggest threats which means we must be "neutralised" to keep us safe from ourselves (assuming he wants to destroy us.)

Or mankind not deserving to spread throughout the galaxy because it's way too dangerous.

Either way, I can't wait to find out. David's becoming a favourite character of mine in this franchise. He is such a complex character and quite diabolical in his own way. I loved the little character development we got with him and Shaw and how she's the only one who showed him kindness. She's probably the only one that David's formed a bond with.


SpeedyMaxx
Apr 30, 2017, 05:21:15 AM
Reply #11 on: Apr 30, 2017, 05:21:15 AM
If Ridley was allowed to decide every detail of the script, Paradise would have followed Prometheus. But of didn't. From that we can infer that some of these changes were to please people above Ridley. He stated more than once that he knew what he wanted to do and was waiting for the go ahead. He didn't get it until nearly twenty drafts and several writers came and went, as well as a very meaningful title change. Nah, these can't be called authentic creative decisions unless we can eliminate those influences, and those influences are strongly apparent.

I don't think this is on the studio. I think Ridley is a much more creatively fickle - and yet also professionally practical - personality than that. As I've said before, he's a very shrewd businessman who has come back from flops many times and retained major esteem in Hollywood. Prometheus did well enough but still underperformed. I don't think he or Lindelof or anyone had a very clear idea where the story would exactly go next with David and Shaw, and I think both he and the studio were concerned about the Alien brand and about maximizing the audience and profit the next time around. So he made a smart business decision.

I think the call to re-brand the film directly with Alien and with the overt connection to the creature, the mythos and the original film was him. I think he is fascinated with the David character and with Fassbender and wanted to continue that character's story, but everything else was about renewing his personal and franchise brand in the strongest way possible - and making a very scary Alien film does that. I think it's a very shrewd if less original or creative choice, and I think it will pay off in box office. I think casually dumping it all, going back on his own words about the future of the franchise and instead trying to make the best whiz-bang Alien flick he can is classic Ridley Scott. I say that with no judgment, bad or good - I just think that is who he has been for a long time. A very smart businessman who is also a very talented director, who is also known to speak off the cuff and change his mind on a whim. As he did here.

To be clear: I wanted the sequel you wanted. I think the direction of AC is a creative regression, and that disappoints me. I also expect it to be a very fun, scary film.

« Last Edit: Apr 30, 2017, 05:24:20 AM by SpeedyMaxx »

Jarac
Apr 30, 2017, 06:17:44 AM
Reply #12 on: Apr 30, 2017, 06:17:44 AM
Well, he talks about he studied their ways before they reached their homeworld. There was something in their history that obviously pissed him off.
I think that, too. Something in the Engineer's past must have made David feel that they needed to be wiped out. The Engineers may not be the benevolent gods Shaw thought they were.

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Protozoid
Apr 30, 2017, 06:41:39 AM
Reply #14 on: Apr 30, 2017, 06:41:39 AM
If Ridley was allowed to decide every detail of the script, Paradise would have followed Prometheus. But of didn't. From that we can infer that some of these changes were to please people above Ridley. He stated more than once that he knew what he wanted to do and was waiting for the go ahead. He didn't get it until nearly twenty drafts and several writers came and went, as well as a very meaningful title change. Nah, these can't be called authentic creative decisions unless we can eliminate those influences, and those influences are strongly apparent.

I don't think this is on the studio. I think Ridley is a much more creatively fickle - and yet also professionally practical - personality than that. As I've said before, he's a very shrewd businessman who has come back from flops many times and retained major esteem in Hollywood. Prometheus did well enough but still underperformed. I don't think he or Lindelof or anyone had a very clear idea where the story would exactly go next with David and Shaw, and I think both he and the studio were concerned about the Alien brand and about maximizing the audience and profit the next time around. So he made a smart business decision.

I think the call to re-brand the film directly with Alien and with the overt connection to the creature, the mythos and the original film was him. I think he is fascinated with the David character and with Fassbender and wanted to continue that character's story, but everything else was about renewing his personal and franchise brand in the strongest way possible - and making a very scary Alien film does that. I think it's a very shrewd if less original or creative choice, and I think it will pay off in box office. I think casually dumping it all, going back on his own words about the future of the franchise and instead trying to make the best whiz-bang Alien flick he can is classic Ridley Scott. I say that with no judgment, bad or good - I just think that is who he has been for a long time. A very smart businessman who is also a very talented director, who is also known to speak off the cuff and change his mind on a whim. As he did here.

To be clear: I wanted the sequel you wanted. I think the direction of AC is a creative regression, and that disappoints me. I also expect it to be a very fun, scary film.
You are ignoring my main point, that Scott was not able to get Paradise made the way he envisioned it. Scott wanted to make Paradise immediately after Prometheus and something or someone prevented it.  It wasn't because he was fickle and kept rewriting for five years. It was because he didn't get the go ahead until Paradise had been rewritten so many times that it became a crossover with the franchise the new studio bosses actually wanted. This isn't a pure Ridley Scott movie by a longshot. This is a crossover movie.  AvP: Alien vs. Prometheus. Whoever wins... you know the rest. Feelings aside, all evidence points towards Paradise dying the death of a thousand cuts before Ridley could conceive this new creation. The question is no longer if he was forced to compromise, it's a matter of how much. Compared to Prometheus, I think this one clearly was censored more. Just look at the rewrites and Scott's own feelings. He changed his kind about the xeno, but he also changed his mind about sex scenes being gratuitous, Shaw being a central character, whether or not to connect to Alien directly, and a bunch of other changes in his opinion as well. All those changes happened overnight, eh? All at once, on one movie? Because he's fickle? Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense to me based on what I know about Scott, the development of this project, or how the industry works. It is far more likely that many of these things came about because the studio asked for them.

« Last Edit: Apr 30, 2017, 06:48:10 AM by Protozoid »

 

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