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Author Topic: Scott says "Covenant is about mortality and immort...  (Read 18731 times)

Deuterium
Jan 01, 2017, 08:35:53 PM
Reply #135 on: Jan 01, 2017, 08:35:53 PM
 

I personally don't believe that any kind of 'supernatural anomaly' is behind the creation of our world and the cosmos at large, and am more inclined to believe that life 'found a way' in some random, naturalistic manner instead.  For one example - if the 'multi-verse' theory is correct, then there could be countless times (yes, even trillions) that different 'universes' have popped into existence over aeons of time - and ours is one that just happened to involve all the random processes necessary to end up with the habitable planet that we've evolved on.  What triggered our particular universe (or even the multi-verse) in the first place? - well, I can't say, but I'm content to think it was due to some as-yet-unknown 'natural' trigger, rather than because of some pre-existing 'supernatural' event.



Hello BringbackJonesy!

There are major philosophical and scientific problems with the entire "Multiverse" hypothesis (in all of it's various permutations).

From a scientific standpoint, it is by definition, non-scientific and therefore a purely metaphysical hypothesis.  It is non-scientific because if fails a fundamental principle of the scientific method, that is, the existence of alternate universe(s) is beyond experimental scrutiny, observation and testing.  The hypothesis is inherently unfalsifiable.  While certain aspects may be technically sweet, self-consistent and have explanatory powers within a mathematical "toy" model...explanation is NOT prediction.  The hypothesis does not make any predictions that can be tested.  In fact, it is even more nonsensical, from a purely scientific perspective. Due to the unimaginably large Set of possible universes that modern Multiverse theory posits, testable predictions are not only impossible, but intrinsically meaningless if they were possible.  That is to say, in the incredibly large Set of possible universes, virtually anything is possible and virtually anything can happen...this means any notional prediction will not translate into a specific, unique testable fact.

From a philosophical standpoint, the argument for a Multiverse simply kicks the can down the road.  Our physical universe does not contain within itself an explanation of it's own existence.  A myriad of additional universes does not help explain why there is something rather than nothing.  I can simply expand my definition of our physical Universe (with a capital "U") to be that Universe that contains all universes.  You can't stop me from constructing this Set.  Instead of a Set with one member, I now have a Set with a bazillion members.  In either case, one is still stumped by the Argument for Contingency.

Cheers,
John


He builds his lofty palace in the heavens
and sets its foundation on the earth;
he calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out over the face of the land—
the Lord is his name.
The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone,
I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
 so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures
 that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth
and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the
 throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for
ever and ever!”
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has
gone, the new is here!
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?

Amen, brother.   :)

« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2017, 08:39:52 PM by Deuterium »

Ingwar
Jan 01, 2017, 09:26:13 PM
Reply #136 on: Jan 01, 2017, 09:26:13 PM
There is nothing random in the Universe... I can tell you that.

How do you know that? I can claim that a lot of things are random in the universe and add to it: I can tell you that.


Enoch
Jan 01, 2017, 11:13:56 PM
Reply #137 on: Jan 01, 2017, 11:13:56 PM
Precisely... and thats why nothing is random... :D ;)  :laugh:


BringbackJonesy!
Jan 02, 2017, 02:36:49 AM
Reply #138 on: Jan 02, 2017, 02:36:49 AM
Hello Deuterium.

Concerning the 'Multiverse' scenario - I agree with everything you wrote about it.  As you say, the existence of alternate universe(s) is beyond scientific scrutiny, observation and testing...and therefore the hypothesis is indeed inherently unfalsifiable.

On the other hand, the existence of some meaningful 'Grand Designer' is equally unprovable.

However, I was really trying to get across the point that if the 'Multiverse' scenario is correct (in whatever type of form), then it could be that out of all the different permutations possible, that we happen to be in a random one which led to our galaxies forming in a way which gave rise to life as we know it...on our planet at least, so far.

But whether the fabric of overall 'reality' threw up a 'Multiverse' or just the single observable Universe we know about is not something I'm too fussed about.  I don't believe that the 'Big Bang' we know about came out of 'absolutely nothing'...but I do believe that it's more likely it came about due to 'something' like a type of 'quantum fluctuation' that might make up the fabric of our unseeable overall 'reality' to begin with...rather than coming about due to some 'all-powerful', pre-existing deity. 

Either way, I realise that my belief in a random, 'naturalistic' act of existence is as difficult a concept for some to accept, as the idea of a deliberate 'Creator' is for me...so we'll just have to agree to disagree in which 'faith' we choose to believe in.

Going back to these PROMETHEUS movies however, I would have preferred a storyline which kept the 'Xenomorph' eggs (along with the 'Queen') as having evolved in a truly independent, 'alien' manner on some far-flung planet with difficult conditions...rather than ending up as some kind of developed 'bio-weaponry' by 'tall humanoids'...which seems to be the direction Ridley's going. 

Fair enough, if that's the way he wanted to set these creatures up...but I REALLY could have done without him involving the 'tall humanoids' as being instrumental in OUR develpment too!! 

Mainy, I'm hoping that I end up actually caring for the new characters in ALIEN COVENANT in the same way that I did for the characters in ALIEN and ALIENS...or all the fancy kills and effects will be rendered meaningless overall.  So fingers crossed for that.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and everyone else here.


 :P  :P  :P


Deuterium
Jan 02, 2017, 03:29:57 PM
Reply #139 on: Jan 02, 2017, 03:29:57 PM
Hello Deuterium.

Concerning the 'Multiverse' scenario - I agree with everything you wrote about it.  As you say, the existence of alternate universe(s) is beyond scientific scrutiny, observation and testing...and therefore the hypothesis is indeed inherently unfalsifiable.

On the other hand, the existence of some meaningful 'Grand Designer' is equally unprovable.

However, I was really trying to get across the point that if the 'Multiverse' scenario is correct (in whatever type of form), then it could be that out of all the different permutations possible, that we happen to be in a random one which led to our galaxies forming in a way which gave rise to life as we know it...on our planet at least, so far.

But whether the fabric of overall 'reality' threw up a 'Multiverse' or just the single observable Universe we know about is not something I'm too fussed about.  I don't believe that the 'Big Bang' we know about came out of 'absolutely nothing'...but I do believe that it's more likely it came about due to 'something' like a type of 'quantum fluctuation' that might make up the fabric of our unseeable overall 'reality' to begin with...rather than coming about due to some 'all-powerful', pre-existing deity. 

Either way, I realise that my belief in a random, 'naturalistic' act of existence is as difficult a concept for some to accept, as the idea of a deliberate 'Creator' is for me...so we'll just have to agree to disagree in which 'faith' we choose to believe in.

Going back to these PROMETHEUS movies however, I would have preferred a storyline which kept the 'Xenomorph' eggs (along with the 'Queen') as having evolved in a truly independent, 'alien' manner on some far-flung planet with difficult conditions...rather than ending up as some kind of developed 'bio-weaponry' by 'tall humanoids'...which seems to be the direction Ridley's going. 

Fair enough, if that's the way he wanted to set these creatures up...but I REALLY could have done without him involving the 'tall humanoids' as being instrumental in OUR develpment too!! 

Mainy, I'm hoping that I end up actually caring for the new characters in ALIEN COVENANT in the same way that I did for the characters in ALIEN and ALIENS...or all the fancy kills and effects will be rendered meaningless overall.  So fingers crossed for that.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and everyone else here.


 :P  :P  :P

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, BringbackJonesy!

And Happy New Year to you, as well.

Just a brief response and clarification to our previous dialogue.

I completely agree that the existence of God cannot be established or proved through the Scientific Method.  But that does not mean we do not have other means by which to apprehend facts and derive truths about reality. 

I fully accept (and continually practice) science, and believe it to be a practical, and even a necessary means for understanding and explaining properties of our physical Universe.  However, I cordially disagree with those who believe it to be the necessary and sufficient means for the same.  That would be "scientism", which is a philosophical belief.  That, in and of itself, does not make it a false or an erroneous belief.  However, one would have to use philosophical arguments to make the case for scientism...i.e. science and the scientific method is the exclusive and exhaustive means for understanding and explaining all of reality.

Which brings us back to the question of God, and how we can come to knowledge of His existence, and certainty about this truth, as well as other truths about reality which fall outside the scope and domain of science.  There are two primary means.  The first is through natural reason and philosophical arguments. The second is through direct (Divine) revelation.  Incidentally, the first means has also given us the entire field and structure of mathematics, which just so happens to be a critical component in the practice of the scientific method.

Sorry for the diversion into epistemology.  Now back to the topic at hand.   ;D

Why of why did Ridley feel the need to retcon the mysterious, surreal and truly "alien" Space Jockey creature into a something so mundane as a big, blue human??  That was my biggest frustration with Prometheus.  He took the "alien" out of Alien.

« Last Edit: Jan 02, 2017, 03:33:20 PM by Deuterium »

Enoch
Jan 02, 2017, 04:10:26 PM
Reply #140 on: Jan 02, 2017, 04:10:26 PM
Although this Logos is eternally valid, yet men are unable to understand it -- not only before hearing it, but even after they have heard it for the first time. That is to say, although all things come to pass in accordance with this Logos , men seem to be quite without any experience of it -- at least if they are judged in the light of such words and deeds as I am here setting forth. ...
We should let ourselves be guided by what is common to all. Yet although the Logos is common to all, most men live as if each had a private intelligence of his own.
Although intimately connected with the Logos, men keep setting themselves against it.
Listening not to me but to the Logos, it is wise to acknowledge that all things are one.

MIND IS EVERYONE'S GOD.

Heraclitus, fr. 2 (p. 19)


Quote
Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
Into the rose-garden (death/life). My words echo
Thus, in your mind .

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.


 T.S. Eliot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo9lUPeAAJs

 ;)

« Last Edit: Jan 02, 2017, 04:21:39 PM by Enoch »

lelder shadow warrior
Jan 02, 2017, 04:32:50 PM
Reply #141 on: Jan 02, 2017, 04:32:50 PM
dam alien covenent good movie10;10pts


Ultramorph
Jan 02, 2017, 05:16:09 PM
Reply #142 on: Jan 02, 2017, 05:16:09 PM
Sagardoa messaged me again, and he dropped an inetersting tidbit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Pvt. Himmel
Jan 02, 2017, 05:18:53 PM
Reply #143 on: Jan 02, 2017, 05:18:53 PM
Sagardoa messaged me again, and he dropped an inetersting tidbit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But if
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


AlienNecrotears
Jan 02, 2017, 05:24:26 PM
Reply #144 on: Jan 02, 2017, 05:24:26 PM
Wanna c more about the Engineers, their planets and their culture, Ancient Gods... why they wanted to wipe out humanity... + some classic Gigersque Alien stuff  :)




Seegson
Jan 02, 2017, 08:08:21 PM
Reply #147 on: Jan 02, 2017, 08:08:21 PM
Im worried about this creationist no-sense...not a fan of religion in scifi films


Deuterium
Jan 02, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
Reply #148 on: Jan 02, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
Sagardoa messaged me again, and he dropped an inetersting tidbit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
   ;D

« Last Edit: Jan 02, 2017, 08:43:50 PM by Deuterium »

lv_226
Jan 02, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
Reply #149 on: Jan 02, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
Sagardoa messaged me again, and he dropped an inetersting tidbit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
   ;D

Now it's just getting ridiculous  :laugh:


 

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