Bugs and Exploits

[KingKenny]

Ok, so you're saying the skill is in clicking at a certain speed and not losing mouse control. Even if that's true to some extent, it's still an exploit. So that's saying you're skilled at using an exploit, not skilled at just playing without exploits. Big difference.

The way I see it, if its staggerer vs staggerer its fine. But staggerer against predator/alien/non-pulse human? Not fair. When one character/player has stagger and the other doesn't, that's like you picking to play as Oddjob in Goldeneye 007. Perfect comparison. Where as stagger gives an offensive advantage via exploit, Oddjob gives a defensive advantage via exploit. Both were left in the game as is, but both give the user a competitive edge via an exploit.

Btw, you can easily increase the sense of speed if you just ran a sound pack with a sped up wav file for the pulse fire. Then you get the sense of speed without abusing the exploit. Plus the muzzle flash would stay on and not be flickering (indicating pauses/stops in fire). I don't buy that argument.

Sniper rifle is unbalanced in AvP2 big time. But its usually not exploited. It is the golden gun of AvP2. Can't really complain about it though because the damage it causes is not an exploit.

And then you start talking about disc throwing and lock-ons as competitive edge? People always complain about the balance of the game. That won't be changed without a mod.

But balance and exploit are two different things.

I wouldn't go as far as to call someone who uses stagger a cheater (its borderline), but they are an Oddjob user. No one likes Oddjob users.

[JP]

Ok, so you're saying the skill is in clicking at a certain speed and not losing mouse control. Even if that's true to some extent, it's still an exploit. So that's saying you're skilled at using an exploit, not skilled at just playing without exploits. Big difference.

You still have to aim as you would if you didnt stagg, only its harder when clicking fast.

The way I see it, if its staggerer vs staggerer its fine. But staggerer against predator/alien/non-pulse human? Not fair. When one character/player has stagger and the other doesn't, that's like you picking to play as Oddjob in Goldeneye 007. Perfect comparison. Where as stagger gives an offensive advantage via exploit, Oddjob gives a defensive advantage via exploit. Both were left in the game as is, but both give the user a competitive edge via an exploit.

Unlike sniper there are ways of defending yourself against stagger, people dont use it either because they dont know how or they dont want.

Btw, you can easily increase the sense of speed if you just ran a sound pack with a sped up wav file for the pulse fire. Then you get the sense of speed without abusing the exploit. Plus the muzzle flash would stay on and not be flickering (indicating pauses/stops in fire). I don't buy that argument

.

Clicking and aiming fast gives the sense of speed normal fire is just pressing a button and keeping your crosshair on your enemy, besides im already using a sped up sound as you can hear in that video. The way it feels to me ingame is not an argument, its a fact.

And then you start talking about disc throwing and lock-ons as competitive edge? People always complain about the balance of the game. That won't be changed without a mod.

Im talking about people abusing the broken server timer that leads to super fast, and in most cases, unavoidable projectiles, this and the auto lock 1 hit kill from the disk makes it in such servers only equivalent to an aimboted sniper. Every disc/pistol/plasma spammer does this but i dont see anyone complaining or doing anything about it.

[KingKenny]

JP, you're missing my point. You're going on about how it require skill to use stagger. I'm talking about stagger=exploit=oddjob=unfair advantage.

The ways of defending against stagger? Kill the other person first.

But if you're using stagger pulse against a player not using stagger pulse, you're the one with the competitive edge via an exploit. Even if you both shoot each other in the same spot on the hit detection box at the same time, you will always win because you're shooting at a faster rate.

I'm not following you on the broken server timer. That would effect all players and not be one player specifically abusing an exploit.

You'll never convince me on this. I know some players like using stagger, but it is an exploit. Exploiting is borderline cheating if not cheating itself. Most will agree with me on stagger, those that don't tend to choose not to primarily because they like using stagger. That's all.

For those that are pro stagger, I say enable stagger for every gun, alien claws, tail strike, pounce (facehugger incuded - extra fast pouncing), chestburster stagger (rapid bites), pred pistol, speargun, wristblade and spear stagger strikes, exo stagger, etc.

[Olde]

Only bunnyhoping and pulse stagger are allowed, i dont even know what spawn invicibilty is.

Spawn invincibility abuse is, when you respawn, switching to a one-hit kill weapon such as the sniper and finding a target before moving. You're untouchable as long as you don't move; then the split second you become vulnerable you shoot your target.

Map glitching is not allowed simply because it breaks the gameplay, like getting behind a wall from outside of the map and kill people while beeing unreachable to others, glitching their way in rooms on survivor gameplay, etc... And actually monolith was very aware of these exploits and they even stated it right before they released the 1.0.9.6 patch. They fixed some bugs but decided to leave the "exploits" you see nowdays, so im pretty sure thats how the game is intended to play.

So you're "pretty sure" the exploits are legitimate because monolith was too lazy to fix their broken mess of a game. Nice logic. Also hypocritical when you look at what you say about the map clipping.

Avoiding getting spawn killed by a sniper is very much possible, avoiding spider mines that are placed when you spawn isnt.

Not in my experience. In fact, in my experience very little is avoidable.

Sniper stagger is banned because unlike pulse stagger it relies on luck to kill your opponent.

If it relies on luck, then why is it banned? Basically what I get from this is that only weapons that require real skill to use should be permitted. Well, there are plenty of other weapons that require even less skill than sniper stagger to get kills, but why aren't those weapons banned?

Pulse stagger on the other hand is one of the most skill based activities you can do on this game...

It's plenty harder to get kills with other weapons than the pulse rifle.

Stagger is not the problem, being placed on the same server with someone on a completely different skill level is.

Being placed on the same server with someone on a completely different skill level that's the problem. The problem is players who have spent thousands of hours learning how to manipulate this game's flaws in such a way as to maximize frags for themselves (usually choosing one of two or three weapons and almost always choosing marine  ) and who refuse to change their ways or challenge themselves by disadvantaging themselves against new players. The problem is people like you always choosing the sniper rifle and pulse stagger when you enter a server with players who clearly haven't logged on as many hours as you. You yourself say how imbalanced the sniper rifle is, yet you have a whole YouTube video apparently glorifying it. Please do a little introspection before criticizing others.

lol, you simply like stagger because it gives you a competitive edge to exploit a gun against other characters who may/may not be using the same exploit. Man up and admit it.

If you were so serious about being a skilled player you would be saying "hey, I don't need stagger because I'm a skilled player. Noobs need stagger to compete with me."

I couldn't agree more.

And by the way, I just want to say that I don't have any problem with anyone using certain weapons, stagger, exploits, bugs, etc. The above is directed at JP's arguments only because he's the only one I see actually trying to make a defense for stagger and the like. But the arguments put forth are so ridiculous, hypocritical, unfounded, and manipulated so as to not affect those who use them that I completely understand those who feel they're wrong. There's hardly any reasoning and it all boils down to "this is accepted, that is not accepted."

[JP]

The ways of defending against stagger? Kill the other person first.

how about crouching with humans? how about wall walk with aliens? what about going out of the pulse range and killing with another weapon?

But if you're using stagger pulse against a player not using stagger pulse, you're the one with the competitive edge via an exploit. Even if you both shoot each other in the same spot on the hit detection box at the same time, you will always win because you're shooting at a faster rate.

stagger means nothing agaisnt aim, someone with excelent aim will kill you with 1 click even before you try to stagg against him

I'm not following you on the broken server timer. That would effect all players and not be one player specifically abusing an exploit.

because giving every spammers ultra fast auto lock unavoidable weapons seems fair...

Being placed on the same server with someone on a completely different skill level that's the problem. The problem is players who have spent thousands of hours learning how to manipulate this game's flaws in such a way as to maximize frags for themselves (usually choosing one of two or three weapons and almost always choosing marine  ) and who refuse to change their ways or challenge themselves by disadvantaging themselves against new players. The problem is people like you always choosing the sniper rifle and pulse stagger when you enter a server with players who clearly haven't logged on as many hours as you. You yourself say how imbalanced the sniper rifle is, yet you have a whole YouTube video apparently glorifying it. Please do a little introspection before criticizing others.

Played 5 years straight as predalien only, can i play human now? And so you know i didnt always have the skill or whatever you want to call it with the pulse rifle so i too had to put up with godlike staggers before i get to this point and not once i complained.

It always amazes people that want others to play not in the way they want but in a way that pleases other players, this single line of tought ruins the entire concept of gaming. Not going to change my gameplay because others say so, i play the way i want and i want others to play the way they want.

[Xhan]

Stagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.

the way i want to

Killing a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".

Your argument is bullshit.


Total hypocrisy.

skill

Feathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.

[Olde]

Played 5 years straight as predalien only, can i play human now? And so you know i didnt always have the skill or whatever you want to call it with the pulse rifle so i too had to put up with godlike staggers before i get to this point and not once i complained.

It always amazes people that want others to play not in the way they want but in a way that pleases other players, this single line of tought ruins the entire concept of gaming. Not going to change my gameplay because others say so, i play the way i want and i want others to play the way they want.

That's how I play AVP Classic. People call me out on alien speed tricks, which are exploits. I can't convince anybody that they're a legitimate part of the game. However, I'll change the way I play when I'm playing someone who's not challenging for me. I won't go at my 100% and use the one-hit kills at mach speed when I'm going against new players who aren't familiar with the game, just trying to have fun, or politely ask me to not go crazy with the game. Usually I'll acquiesce because it's not fun for anyone to abuse exploits; not fun for me because it's not challenging and not fun for others because they feel it's unfair. The community is small enough as it is, and abusing exploits against noobs, especially when you don't need to, only causes fractures in the community, as we see here.

I'm not suggesting you have to change the way you play. But don't complain when people criticize you or other players and the community shrinks because you're scaring away new players by playing against them the way you'd play against vets, which doesn't make players feel welcome or appreciated, and not even trying to make the game appear fair.

[JP]

Stagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.

Aactually its aprox 1,538 times the dmg/time compared to normal fire, dmg per shot stays the same since each bullet still does 25 base dmg.

Feathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.

Sure now try to aim while doing that

Killing a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".

Name                        = "Alien_Praetorian"
DefaultDeathAni             = "Death"
DefaultHitNode              = 0

Node2Name                   = "Neck_node"
Node2DeathAni               = "T"
Node2Piece                  = "Torso"
Node2LimbAni                = "Limb_Torso"
Node2GIBType                = "Alien_Torso_Multi"

=====>Node2DamageFactor           = 3.0<=====

Node2MinExplodeDamage       = 10.0
Node2MinExplodeChance       = 0.0
Node2MaxExplodeDamage       = 10.0
Node2MaxExplodeChance       = 0.25
Node2CanLiveExplode         = 0
Node2ForceCrawl             = 0
Node2BleederNode = -1
Node2Parent                 = 1
Node2Location               = 2
Node2Radius                 = 9.75
Node2StrafeYawRange0        = (0,0)
Node2AimPitchRange0         = (65,45)

As you can clearly see there the dmg factor is 3x not 15 like you claim, and with a damage resistance of 0.1 (pulse shots do only 10% of the damage) it takes about 60 shots to kill a praetorian in the neck, or in best case scenario 36 shots if you hit all in the head. With a fire rate of  9.2 rounds per second in normal fire it takes 4 seconds to kill a prae with all headshots compared to the 2.5 seconds with stagger. And this is if you have perfect aim and stagger which not even someone like me can do against a bunny hopping prae for example and i very often get killed by the prae while staggering, so i can only imagine what its like for a novice player to face a praetorian...

And by this logic i also conclude that headshooting other characters is very wrong, so in the next patch we also need to remove location base damage..

[Praetorian_MP]

DefaultHitPoints        = 440
MaxHitPoints            = 440

1 hit kills with stagger and bullet dmg tripled? Maybe you should try to get some actual facts before even forming an opinion.

Your argument is bullshit.

Maybe it is but at least its not my facts that are complete and utter 100% bullshit only design to twist the general opinion on this matter

[Acid or Zaiko :)]

Good point JP.

I dont get why people are so upset about stagger fire and all.For famous 2.0 stagg you need 7,0714285714.. click in second + you need to aim.Only character that is affected by stagg rate is runner since he can be killed really easy with stagg fire.And 95% of players dont have 2.0,they have around 1,75-1,85.Only important thing is aim since you need ONE bullet into head to kill human,two for drone,three for predalien(not 100% sure).

[Jegeren]

Wait a moment... Admins are abusing glitches? What kind of madness is this? Man a lot has changed since I last played it seems.

[x-M-x]

Wait a moment... Admins are abusing glitches? What kind of madness is this? Man a lot has changed since I last played it seems.

Indeed.

Past admins wouldn't stand for this shit.

[DT]

It depents so much from the server. Some allow glitches, some like to play with leaguerules or something between those two. Its always been like that since the first day I started playing at 2003.
Like I said earlier about making a code to the patch which servermod makers can use to put an option to allow or disallow stagger, that would fix the problem. My apologises for saying some harsh words and attacking people at at my last post, it wont happen again.

Edit. Just checked the serverlist, im not suprised at all seeing people only playing at TBBC survivor all maps. All other servers are empty. I think the community talks for itself and plays where they want to play and follows the rules which are set on each communitys server.. tbh. usually that doesnt even happen, unfrotunately. But Im one of those very few players out there who usually tend to follow the server rules to exact point as they are given. If something is not allowed, I wont do it. If I see someone else going against the rules, I'll usually tell them to stop. If that doesnt work and theres no admins around, well.. theres nothing I can do about it then.

[Xhan]

Stagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.

Aactually its aprox 1,538 times the dmg/time compared to normal fire, dmg per shot stays the same since each bullet still does 25 base dmg.

Feathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.

Sure now try to aim while doing that

Killing a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".

Name                        = "Alien_Praetorian"
DefaultDeathAni             = "Death"
DefaultHitNode              = 0

Node2Name                   = "Neck_node"
Node2DeathAni               = "T"
Node2Piece                  = "Torso"
Node2LimbAni                = "Limb_Torso"
Node2GIBType                = "Alien_Torso_Multi"

=====>Node2DamageFactor           = 3.0<=====

Node2MinExplodeDamage       = 10.0
Node2MinExplodeChance       = 0.0
Node2MaxExplodeDamage       = 10.0
Node2MaxExplodeChance       = 0.25
Node2CanLiveExplode         = 0
Node2ForceCrawl             = 0
Node2BleederNode = -1
Node2Parent                 = 1
Node2Location               = 2
Node2Radius                 = 9.75
Node2StrafeYawRange0        = (0,0)
Node2AimPitchRange0         = (65,45)

As you can clearly see there the dmg factor is 3x not 15 like you claim, and with a damage resistance of 0.1 (pulse shots do only 10% of the damage) it takes about 60 shots to kill a praetorian in the neck, or in best case scenario 36 shots if you hit all in the head. With a fire rate of  9.2 rounds per second in normal fire it takes 4 seconds to kill a prae with all headshots compared to the 2.5 seconds with stagger. And this is if you have perfect aim and stagger which not even someone like me can do against a bunny hopping prae for example and i very often get killed by the prae while staggering, so i can only imagine what its like for a novice player to face a praetorian...

And by this logic i also conclude that headshooting other characters is very wrong, so in the next patch we also need to remove location base damage..

[Praetorian_MP]

DefaultHitPoints        = 440
MaxHitPoints            = 440

1 hit kills with stagger and bullet dmg tripled? Maybe you should try to get some actual facts before even forming an opinion.

Your argument is bullshit.

Maybe it is but at least its not my facts that are complete and utter 100% bullshit only design to twist the general opinion on this matter

You fail pretty good at reading, so I'll clarify just this once, I said ->DPS<-, because optimal staggering creates up to three damage hitscan blobs instead of one; damage per shot being normalized doesn't mean anything because the engine is detecting 3 shots irrespective of the source, you're also conveniently ignoring the damage type of PR bullets do which directly affects the damage output thereof as bullets-no gib.

Secondly, I said neck shot for as a specific instance since the shot has to pass through the head hitbox to register as a neck shot unless it's from above and behind which means 25 damage is applied as 5x3x because of the size of the damage blob, aka 15x times the damage before resistance is applied, this is exact same method and functionality used to kill a full health praetorian in one sniper shot, which is perfectly doable, even in 100 ping+ differential situations.

15x DPS.

now try aiming

Not sure what kind of mouse you're using but any razer or logitech or steelseries mouse made after 2004 has had industry standard anti-travel and anti jitter implementation, your synthetic scenario doesn't really apply, and we haven't even covered one-button macros yet, thanks to AvP2's handy cursor center snap function which cheaters have been plugging into since the game debuted.

7 clicks

Again not sure what kind of rock and flint based mouse you're using, but any mouse made in the last 12 years is capable of far more than that, and mice made in the last 5 years are WAY more capable of that with zero travel, and again macros make even the most ligament-ally challenged player into a damage spamming superstar.

Stagger fire is bs, simple as.

[KingKenny]

I wouldn't bother getting into the technical/skill discussion about stagger. It's irrelevant.



Player 1 picks marine Johnson.

Player 2 picks corporate Rykov.

Players 1 and 2 both have 100% health and full armor.

Players 1 and 2 stand in front of each other with pulse rifles aiming at each others chest (center of hit detection box).

Players 1 and 2 fire their pulse rifles at the same exact time.

Player 1 doesn't use stagger.

Player 2 uses stagger exclusively.

Who wins?

Player 2 wins, every time.

How is this fair?

It's not.

This doesn't even factor all the other weapons and attacks not having their own stagger to compensate for pulse stagger.

Stagger=exploit=glitching=Oddjob=unfair advantage=cheating.

I rest my case.

[JP]

Players 1 and 2 stand in front of each other with pulse rifles aiming at each others chest (center of hit detection box).

If you are aiming it at your oponent's chest you are playing the game wrong. With 100HP/100A the pusle rifle is 1 shot 1 kill, stagger or no stagger, so your scenario fails right there since both players would die at the exact same time.

You fail pretty good at reading, so I'll clarify just this once, I said ->DPS<-, because optimal staggering creates up to three damage hitscan blobs instead of one; damage per shot being normalized doesn't mean anything because the engine is detecting 3 shots irrespective of the source, you're also conveniently ignoring the damage type of PR bullets do which directly affects the damage output thereof as bullets-no gib.

Secondly, I said neck shot for as a specific instance since the shot has to pass through the head hitbox to register as a neck shot unless it's from above and behind which means 25 damage is applied as 5x3x because of the size of the damage blob, aka 15x times the damage before resistance is applied, this is exact same method and functionality used to kill a full health praetorian in one sniper shot, which is perfectly doable, even in 100 ping+ differential situations.

15x DPS.

First of all stagger crates only 2 hitscans per mouse click, and this is only if you make every click perfect (only achievable through external software = cheating) and i said for the pulse bullet type the  prae has 0.1 dmg resistance.

And then you are talking about a specific circumstance where the bullet travels through the nech and head hitboxes creating a dmg factor of 15, but on servers and not on paper the only time is see this is when you kill a queen with 1 sniper shot while aiming at the neck and even this doesnt happen on even 1% of all shots, so if your calculations where even close tho what happens in realith we would see praes dying in 2 pulse shots all the time.
Damn i want to learn how to do this too!
Can it happen? Probably. Does it happen? NO. And since my calculations describe much more accuratelly stagger gameplay against a prae i still call:

complete and utter 100% bullshit

And even if you can make every shot go through the head and neck hitboxes you still can make it also with normal fire or am i missing something here? Besides, if you can actually do that with every single shot either you are the best fps player of all time or you have a great aimbot.
I really like how you take a freak circumstance that can also be achieved with normal fire or sniper as you say to claim that stagger does 15x dps. At leas im here defending my point using facts that i know are true, not throwing completely unrelated bullshit and false facts to the argument in order to make your point valid.

Not sure what kind of mouse you're using but any razer or logitech or steelseries mouse made after 2004 has had industry standard anti-travel and anti jitter implementation, your synthetic scenario doesn't really apply, and we haven't even covered one-button macros yet, thanks to AvP2's handy cursor center snap function which cheaters have been plugging into since the game debuted.

And we are finnaly on the practical aspect of the thing and obviously it already seems that this is already a case of someone that doesn have a clue about what they are talking about, but since im here to clarify people ill explain.  The problem about stagging isnt about the jitter it causes from fast clicking, sure you can cheat with external software assistance ( which i dont, i use raw imput without acceleration), but that doesnt even matter to this case. The problem is making two distinct movements with your hand (similar to that tap head and rub belly thing), this is why most people have a very hard time moving the hand while fast clicking and to train your hand to do this takes an insane amout of time for reasons which you obviously would never understand.

Again not sure what kind of rock and flint based mouse you're using, but any mouse made in the last 12 years is capable of far more than that, and mice made in the last 5 years are WAY more capable of that with zero travel, and again macros make even the most ligament-ally challenged player into a damage spamming superstar.

Now it is clear to me why you cant understand it when you suggest cheating with the assistance of external programs in order to stagg to prove how easy and cheap it is. And by the way not only macro has the most distinctive noise in the world but its also auto banned.