Bugs and Exploits

[veis]

True, must be new players.... back in 2003 to 2005? a good 400/600 players back then.

I mentioned earlier in TBBC client chat the same thing. Around 2004-05 there propably was around 500 ppl who followed the leaguerules and around the same who didnt. Theres always been a community who wanted to use glitches or so. There is no way you are going to get stagger banned from the whole game alltogether, no matter you say. That is just not going to happen. Period.

Veis, if we are kids as admins, 99% of players would have been banned already.. Only the cheating ones are, so live with it. Also stay banned because your one of those who tried cheating. GG? 

Alright, I guess admins are liars too. I am not banned and never was. I'm not going to prove it either as I am done playing for now. If you don't believe me I don't care. A brief visit to your forums is all the evidence I need for you banning players for silly reasons. So yeah potential players, don't take my word for it, let their site speak for itself and draw your own conclusion. Apparently the problem only lies with a few TBBC admins and not the MS staff at large as I said before. So perhaps players can go to other servers.

[KingKenny]

How the hell are you running the game,TBBC is right now running the game and because of him we still play game,I dont see your work in new MS except you are makeing problems.Your problem is that you dont play game and think you know the best.You listen to some stupid noobs that dont know what is overrun.MS is savior patch not bug fixer update/patch.Your problem is that you lost battle with custom maps and now you wanna make more problems.

You're right that the MSP is not a bug fixer patch really. It's sole purpose is to get multiplayer working again.

But then if you're upset over the idea of a stagger exploit being removed, why not be upset over other exploits that have been removed in the msp? There were some removed in 2.1. If that's the case you should be angry at TBBC? The logic just doesn't make sense.

As much as I hate stagger, I know many like it. It should be at least a toggable option for server admins to disable/enable.

The worst thing is that some players hook up a macro to shoot with the pulse gun. I've seen it used many times.



Btw, it was originally my idea to start adding maps to the AvP2 master server patch. I came up with the idea of introducing the PH maps because the PH server was down and we thought it would always be down at the time due to the lack of a source code for PH.

I brought the idea to Jeff (aka The One) of lithfaq.com (who originally hosted the patch) and x-M-x. x-M-x liked the idea and wanted to add custom maps in as well. We brought the idea to Herr Alien, who was the author of the savior mod (MSP) and he liked it and agreed to do it. So both Jeff, x-M-x and I ran through a ton of maps.

Initially, we tried to pick balanced maps. I picked the PH maps and TDS Pods because pods is 95% created by Monolith already.

Jeff picked waterstation and korari compound, and x-M-x picked the others (Broken Dream). Herr Alien agreed with our choices and added them to the Savior mod. The PH maps went in first if I remember correctly.

Go look up lithfaq.com on the wayback machine, or ask Herr Alien, The One, x-M-x, etc. You'll see my story sticks.

I bring this up because you guys (not just you) constantly bash x-M-x and seem to disregard the history of the savior mod's/msp's development. I know what you're all saying, Kenny's buddies with x-M-x so he's backing him up. True....

But what's also true is that he's been helping to support the MSP since the day it was made. Yes TBBC is coding it now and is doing most of the work (a damn good job too I must say), but x-M-x does contribute in various ways and you still bash the guy when you weren't even around posting about the patch back when lithfaq.com was up and hosting the master server.

Now he had put a halt on custom maps going into the MSP because there was a disagreement on some mappers being ignored from getting their maps considered and a concern over the msp becoming a map pack. So he pulled the maps reluctantly. People were upset, so he puts a poll out which largely looks like custom maps will return. So he's listening to all the feedback of what people want. Maps will probably be voted in now.

I don't understand the hate. He asked Herr Alien to pickup the the savior mod and further see its development. He built a website promoting AvP2 (and in the future will host the custom content built for the game), promotes the MSP on every AvP site and responds to all the feedback people post (good/bad as long as its constructive criticism). He also revived avp2files.com back when that site was dead and wasn't accepting any mods/maps/skins/whatever. Not to mention he released his own skins for the game.

That's a lot of contributions. I don't see him "making problems" at all.

[Olde]

Olde, good game.. Dont start shit on me again, "nobody follows the server rules anyways".. 

Good game, but I think you're overreacting. I wasn't starting any shit. First off, there's no one-stop location that details the rules clearly and overtly. I can tell you that I've never seen a notification about not spider-mining spawn points, on which you called someone out. Your server says "No excessive bug exploitation allowed." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think spider-mining spawn points is a bug. It's akin to sniper spawnkilling that can take place on maps like Colony and ALesserFate, or spawn invincibility abuse, which can be just as bad. You can't prevent people from doing these. As I told you, you can't tell people how to play. That's like people calling JP out as a hacker.

On top of that, your server's notification "No excessive bug exploitation allowed" contradicts your permitting pulse stagger. Pulse stagger, like sniper stagger, is a bug. Plain and simple. Using it repeatedly is excessive exploitation. As a new player to this game, I see this as cherry-picking which bugs you can and can't use. It doesn't matter if there's a huge community that's been using pulse stagger since the day AvP2 came out, but don't hide the fact that stagger is bug exploitation. Look, I don't have a problem with stagger. The multiplayer has way more problems than that. I do have a problem with hypocrites, though. So when I say "nobody follows the server rules anyways," you're included in that as well.

[Corporal Hicks]

Try and keep it civil please gents. No personal attacks or outbursts please. Thanks.

[JP]

"No excessive bug exploitation allowed"

This reffers to map glitching, server mod bug exploitation, etc. What you people reffer as bugs or exploits in the actual game are perfectly allowed.

A bug is when the game allows you to do something that goes outside the normal game mechanics, exploit on the other hand is when you use the game mechanics and exploit them in your favour. Stagger is just that, exploiting how the pulse rifle works allowing you to fire faster than normally.

From the aliens movie: "remember, short controlled bursts"
Now, how are you supposed to fire the pulse rifle again?

[Corporal Hicks]

Acid, no antagonizing please.

[Acid or Zaiko :)]

Acid, no antagonizing please.

Wait,I dont antagonize him,I am telling the truth.Guy is posting lies on every avp forum how avp2 sucks and everybody hacks when actually he was cheating.I know you will delete this post,your choise but you should know the truth.

[Olde]

"No excessive bug exploitation allowed"

This reffers to map glitching, server mod bug exploitation, etc. What you people reffer as bugs or exploits in the actual game are perfectly allowed.

A bug is when the game allows you to do something that goes outside the normal game mechanics, exploit on the other hand is when you use the game mechanics and exploit them in your favour. Stagger is just that, exploiting how the pulse rifle works allowing you to fire faster than normally.

This is exactly the kind of vague distinction I'm talking about. So by your rationale, spider-mining spawn points, sniper stagger, pulse stagger, predator bunnyhopping, and spawn invincibility abuse are perfectly okay, but glitching through a map is not because....why? What is it about the alien's ability to glitch through textures makes it a bug rather than an exploit? The alien always has the ability to glitch through the same places in the maps, same as how the marine can stagger and pred can bunnyhop.

Stagger is just that, exploiting how the pulse rifle works allowing you to fire faster than normally.

I would say this is exploiting a bug in the way the pulse rifle was programmed. I highly doubt the developers intended stagger to be part of the "normal game mechanics." For all intents and purposes, those are bugs too that should have been fixed up.

I can see now that nobody will agree on which bugs should be permitted and which can't. Those who succeed with stagger and the like don't want to see them go, and those who die to them feel they're unfair. I say suck it up and deal with it.

[Corporal Hicks]

I'm not interested in any calling out of names on either side. I've only kept the topic because I believe it's a legitimate conversation. If any of you continue on calling each other out personally, I will remove the topic.

[JP]

Only bunnyhoping and pulse stagger are allowed, i dont even know what spawn invicibilty is. Map glitching is not allowed simply because it breaks the gameplay, like getting behind a wall from outside of the map and kill people while beeing unreachable to others, glitching their way in rooms on survivor gameplay, etc.

Avoiding getting spawn killed by a sniper is very much possible, avoiding spider mines that are placed when you spawn isnt.

And actually monolith was very aware of these exploits and they even stated it right before they released the 1.0.9.6 patch. They fixed some bugs but decided to leave the "exploits" you see nowdays, so im pretty sure thats how the game is intended to play. Sniper stagger is banned because unlike pulse stagger it relies on luck to kill your opponent. A sinlge shot of the sniper is enough for a skilled player, no fast sniping and hoping you hit something, besides, sniper is already imbalanced as it is. Pulse stagger on the other hand is one of the most skill based activities you can do on this game, thats why if a novice player staggs he will be absolutely useless, but in the hands of an highly skilled player it becomes the deadliest weapon in the game, this is why people complain so much, because only very good players use stagger efficiently and people complain not because of the stagger , but because they are facing a much stronger opponent, thats why when staggers start using normal fire people will continue to complain, and if they use another weapon people will still complain. Stagger is not the problem, being placed on the same server with someone on a completely different skill level is.

[343]

completely different skill level? Haha, yeah right. You are cheating.

A 25 minute game and you joined the last 5 minutes and winning the game when you were 50 or 60 kills behind.
Got shot, 1 second later got shot again, etc.
i am done talking to you.

All i ask, make a game without stagger or whatever it is called.

x-M-x
But an option for Enable/disable  for servers. (so its equal on all ground)
would be better no?

Yes, it would be better.

[Corporal Hicks]

I've warned you before, 343. This isn't the place to come to make personal attacks. One more time and I'll remove your ability to post.

Discuss the issue of exploits with civility please.

[veis]

On top of that, your server's notification "No excessive bug exploitation allowed" contradicts your permitting pulse stagger. Pulse stagger, like sniper stagger, is a bug. Plain and simple. Using it repeatedly is excessive exploitation. As a new player to this game, I see this as cherry-picking which bugs you can and can't use. It doesn't matter if there's a huge community that's been using pulse stagger since the day AvP2 came out, but don't hide the fact that stagger is bug exploitation. Look, I don't have a problem with stagger. The multiplayer has way more problems than that. I do have a problem with hypocrites, though. So when I say "nobody follows the server rules anyways," you're included in that as well.

Very well said. It seems that admins like to remove the bugs they don't use while keeping the ones they love under the guise that "skillful" use of the bug make it different somehow.

[KingKenny]

And actually monolith was very aware of these exploits and they even stated it right before they released the 1.0.9.6 patch. They fixed some bugs but decided to leave the "exploits" you see nowdays, so im pretty sure thats how the game is intended to play. Sniper stagger is banned because unlike pulse stagger it relies on luck to kill your opponent. A sinlge shot of the sniper is enough for a skilled player, no fast sniping and hoping you hit something, besides, sniper is already imbalanced as it is. Pulse stagger on the other hand is one of the most skill based activities you can do on this game, thats why if a novice player staggs he will be absolutely useless, but in the hands of an highly skilled player it becomes the deadliest weapon in the game, this is why people complain so much, because only very good players use stagger efficiently and people complain not because of the stagger , but because they are facing a much stronger opponent, thats why when staggers start using normal fire people will continue to complain, and if they use another weapon people will still complain. Stagger is not the problem, being placed on the same server with someone on a completely different skill level is.

Monolith abandoned AvP2. They were planning on releasing more patches and making AvP3. They actually announced it at one point.

Each patch they released aimed to remove exploits and balance the game. Just because they didn't get to remove all the exploits doesn't mean that they were all intended to be part of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdBpe25MBk4

After watching vids like that, gets me thinking. So by your logic, if there was say pistol/shotgun stagger that fired bullets extra fast, it would be ok for me to use because it takes skill to click a mouse extra fast and abuse an exploit of the game. Hell, by that logic, why don't we give ALL THE GUNS stagger. Even predator weapons. The plasma pistol could then stagger, speargun could stagger, plasmacaster stagger, etc. Lets go further and add stagger to the exosuit, because novice players will complain when a skilled player starts staggering with the exo laser. We could balance even further. If you right click extra fast with the aliens, you could tail attack extra fast....

lol, you simply like stagger because it gives you a competitive edge to exploit a gun against other characters who may/may not be using the same exploit. Man up and admit it.

If you were so serious about being a skilled player you would be saying "hey, I don't need stagger because I'm a skilled player. Noobs need stagger to compete with me."

[JP]

Resuming pulse stagger as just clicking as fast as you can is as simplistic as it can get. Not only is it hard reaching an acceptable firing rate but its also a lot harder aiming while clicking that fast, and that is just the aiming part, then there is the movement, dont crouch and you get headshot, crouch and you are an easy target.

And i just like stagger because of the sense of speed it gives, i just want to kill as fast as humanly possible thats why people get so angry when i stagg. Normal pulse fire is boring and there is no point of doing something if it makes you bored.

If i really wanted a competitive edge i would just use sniper, 1 shot is isntakill and unlike stagger people dont even have time to return fire before they die.
Now that i think about it maybe i should start sniping again since people are so annoyed by my stagger. No exploits and no bugs, just sniper. I bet in a few days someone would make a post complaining about the sniper the same way they come here and complain about stagger.

I dont see anyone complaining about the super fast projectiles on broken servers, which is basically every server besides TBBC. Maybe its because players want to spam their super fast disc and get an unavoidable instakill with auto-lock in order to get a competitive edge to exploit a bug against other characters...