Neill Blomkamp: Alien3 & Resurrection "Went Off The Rails"

Started by Tough little S.O.B., Mar 02, 2015, 05:41:34 PM

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Neill Blomkamp: Alien3 & Resurrection "Went Off The Rails" (Read 80,229 times)

DoomRulz

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 13, 2015, 05:46:14 PM
That depends.

Clawing in panic at your glass prison as it fills with water with no help of escape would also be considered brutal.

Well yes, but a chestburster is in line with the series.

Alien³

Alien³

#376
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
David Giler/Walter Hill/Rex Pickett Sequence of Ripley's Character Development (Going by Assembly Cut)

Cryosleep Disaster ---> Crash ---> Discovery by Clemens ---> Rescue ---> Learning of Newt's Death, Hicks Death, Bishop Further Trashing ---> Numb Acceptance ---> Pod Burn Discovery ---> Newt Autopsy ---> Cremation/Ripley Acceptance/Dog/Bull Chestbursting ---> Prisoner Death ---> Ripley unwary ----> Sudden Clemens Romance ----> Another few prisoners die ----> Looking for Bishop ----> Almost Rape ---> In Infirmary, Conversation with Bishop, Dread of learning Alien onboard ---> Morse comes in, Ripley confirms "dragon" ---> Clemens Conversation/Clemens dies ---> Andrews dies ---> Planning lockdown of Alien ----> Fire disaster/ Alien locked down ---> Character development time, learning of company intentions ---> Morse kills, lets loose Alien ---> Argument, known doom, out of ideas ----> Ripley learns of chestburster ----> Ripley Aaron Company Convo 2 ---> Ripley confronts Alien, won't kill her ---> Dillon won't kill her ---> Planning furnace death ---> Maze sequence ---> Company Arrives ----> Dillon dies ---> Alien dies ---> Bishop 2 Conversation ----> Tragedy ---> Suicide

You vaguely talk about her character development. You've mainly just listed things that happen in broad strokes. Something more like this would make more sense...

Crash land ---> Wake up and learns she's the only survivor ---> Immediate concern of how she ended up there, leaves infirmary to inspect EEV with Clemens, no fear of prisoners ---> Upset of the death of Newt ---> Fear that Newt may have been infected and twists her words to get what she wants from Clemens (autopsy) ---> After funeral she shaves her head, to establish herself amongst these sinners, "Well, I guess, I must make you nervous." ---> She then seeks solace with Clemens, no longer needing the man to make the first move (i.e Hicks) ---> Concern again for alien presence after Murphy's death ---> Goes on the investigation ---> Learns a lesson about wandering out alone (rape scene) (She does not hold it against the rapists seen when helps them during the fire) ---> Learns about the alien and wants rid of it once and for all ---> learns of their compromised situation (no weapons) gets angry and feels more sickness, retreats to infirmary to talk to Clemens ---> suddenly she's faced with the creature which removes her last personal connection to the world she once knew ---> faced with leading once again but this time the situation is different than before (obviously) ---> even when the prisoners are yelling in her face she stays strong ---> works with them to try and kill alien ---> Sickness gets worse and she discovers Queen embryo ---> She becomes desperate, "Tell them the whole place has gone toxic." ---> Hallucinates in the basement whilst looking for the alien, feeling like she is losing her mind ---> Asking Dillion to kill her, realising she cannot take the cowards way out ---> convinces the group of sinners to make a stand to save humanity (redemption) ---> saves humanity ---> faced with a choice to have everything she ever wanted at the expense of the company having the Queen ---> sacrifice to save everyone and end her pain.

In summery: She is not fighting to survive, or fighting to save her ideal life, she's fighting for what is right and knowing it'll come with a thankless victory.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
There is hardly anything going on, other than Ripley being a static object outside of progressing plot events, naimly plans to kill the Alien, so she isn't just a static observer. But, there's hardly any development there. Dragon obviously means demon obviously means Ripley's demons, but this is hardly at all, even attempted at being fleshed out.

Really? ::)

Ripley: You've been in my life so long, I can't remember anything else.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
and thankfully removed the bizarre idea of having a servant prisoner to the Alien, whether he being batshit or otherwise influenced by the beast.

Removed? Were you talking about the theatrical cut?


Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
They even had potential monks right there, and they still didn't take advantage of it and nail the Redemption arc they wanted well.

This was meant to be the final chapter in the Alien series. If you're going to have a story about redemption what better than to fill it with a group of sinners facing their judgment and deciding to become silent heroes. The route they took is far more engaging than if Ripley was surrounded by a group of people who are without sin. We practically had that with Alien & Aliens.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
And this is probably why Fincher disowned it. He came in, wanting/expecting to do a sequel to Aliens, in the vain of Aliens.

I'm sure he did not want to make Aliens 2.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
What you end up with, is a parody of the plot of the Ward/Fassano drafts, in a beautiful confused mess of a film.

Alien 3 is anything but a parody of Ward's script. A parody means its a comical retelling. Comical it is not.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
Fincher nailed down visually, what the Ward script was trying to convey. It is beautiful, tragic, fiery, gothic, hellish, and hopeless.

I agree.

HuDaFuK

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PMAnd this is probably why Fincher disowned it. He came in, wanting/expecting to do a sequel to Aliens, in the vain of Aliens.

That's absolutely not what Fincher wanted to do. At all. He very explicitly stated he wanted to dial it back and go more in line with the first film than the second. He disowned the result because the studio screwed him so incessantly while he was trying to make it.

I do wish fanboys would stop projecting their lust for Aliens 2 onto people who absolutely didn't share that desire.

NetworkATTH

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Mar 16, 2015, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PMAnd this is probably why Fincher disowned it. He came in, wanting/expecting to do a sequel to Aliens, in the vain of Aliens.

That's absolutely not what Fincher wanted to do. At all. He very explicitly stated he wanted to dial it back and go more in line with the first film than the second. He disowned the result because the studio screwed him so incessantly while he was trying to make it.

I do wish fanboys would stop projecting their lust for Aliens 2 onto people who absolutely didn't share that desire.

I have a very real memory of him signing on to do a sequel to Aliens, but ending up dialing it back once he was provided the material to work with, which was fine with him. I can't remember where, but I do clearly remember reading that. And I'm really neutral either way about this sequel, I'm not even sure I want it either.

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 16, 2015, 03:05:21 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
David Giler/Walter Hill/Rex Pickett Sequence of Ripley's Character Development (Going by Assembly Cut)

Cryosleep Disaster ---> Crash ---> Discovery by Clemens ---> Rescue ---> Learning of Newt's Death, Hicks Death, Bishop Further Trashing ---> Numb Acceptance ---> Pod Burn Discovery ---> Newt Autopsy ---> Cremation/Ripley Acceptance/Dog/Bull Chestbursting ---> Prisoner Death ---> Ripley unwary ----> Sudden Clemens Romance ----> Another few prisoners die ----> Looking for Bishop ----> Almost Rape ---> In Infirmary, Conversation with Bishop, Dread of learning Alien onboard ---> Morse comes in, Ripley confirms "dragon" ---> Clemens Conversation/Clemens dies ---> Andrews dies ---> Planning lockdown of Alien ----> Fire disaster/ Alien locked down ---> Character development time, learning of company intentions ---> Morse kills, lets loose Alien ---> Argument, known doom, out of ideas ----> Ripley learns of chestburster ----> Ripley Aaron Company Convo 2 ---> Ripley confronts Alien, won't kill her ---> Dillon won't kill her ---> Planning furnace death ---> Maze sequence ---> Company Arrives ----> Dillon dies ---> Alien dies ---> Bishop 2 Conversation ----> Tragedy ---> Suicide

You vaguely talk about her character development. You've mainly just listed things that happen in broad strokes. Something more like this would make more sense...

Crash land ---> Wake up and learns she's the only survivor ---> Immediate concern of how she ended up there, leaves infirmary to inspect EEV with Clemens, no fear of prisoners ---> Upset of the death of Newt ---> Fear that Newt may have been infected and twists her words to get what she wants from Clemens (autopsy) ---> After funeral she shaves her head, to establish herself amongst these sinners, "Well, I guess, I must make you nervous." ---> She then seeks solace with Clemens, no longer needing the man to make the first move (i.e Hicks) ---> Concern again for alien presence after Murphy's death ---> Goes on the investigation ---> Learns a lesson about wandering out alone (rape scene) (She does not hold it against the rapists seen when helps them during the fire) ---> Learns about the alien and wants rid of it once and for all ---> learns of their compromised situation (no weapons) gets angry and feels more sickness, retreats to infirmary to talk to Clemens ---> suddenly she's faced with the creature which removes her last personal connection to the world she once knew ---> faced with leading once again but this time the situation is different than before (obviously) ---> even when the prisoners are yelling in her face she stays strong ---> works with them to try and kill alien ---> Sickness gets worse and she discovers Queen embryo ---> She becomes desperate, "Tell them the whole place has gone toxic." ---> Hallucinates in the basement whilst looking for the alien, feeling like she is losing her mind ---> Asking Dillion to kill her, realising she cannot take the cowards way out ---> convinces the group of sinners to make a stand to save humanity (redemption) ---> saves humanity ---> faced with a choice to have everything she ever wanted at the expense of the company having the Queen ---> sacrifice to save everyone and end her pain.

In summery: She is not fighting to survive, or fighting to save her ideal life, she's fighting for what is right and knowing it'll come with a thankless victory.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
There is hardly anything going on, other than Ripley being a static object outside of progressing plot events, naimly plans to kill the Alien, so she isn't just a static observer. But, there's hardly any development there. Dragon obviously means demon obviously means Ripley's demons, but this is hardly at all, even attempted at being fleshed out.

Really? ::)

Ripley: You've been in my life so long, I can't remember anything else.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
and thankfully removed the bizarre idea of having a servant prisoner to the Alien, whether he being batshit or otherwise influenced by the beast.

Removed? Were you talking about the theatrical cut?
http://media.tumblr.com/3d68a91acb6fa0f5eee4c7a8555e4257/tumblr_mhmc4onydU1r7wvzxo3_r1_400.gif

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
They even had potential monks right there, and they still didn't take advantage of it and nail the Redemption arc they wanted well.

This was meant to be the final chapter in the Alien series. If you're going to have a story about redemption what better than to fill it with a group of sinners facing their judgment and deciding to become silent heroes. The route they took is far more engaging than if Ripley was surrounded by a group of people who are without sin. We practically had that with Alien & Aliens.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
And this is probably why Fincher disowned it. He came in, wanting/expecting to do a sequel to Aliens, in the vain of Aliens.

I'm sure he did not want to make Aliens 2.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
What you end up with, is a parody of the plot of the Ward/Fassano drafts, in a beautiful confused mess of a film.

Alien 3 is anything but a parody of Ward's script. A parody means its a comical retelling. Comical it is not.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 15, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
Fincher nailed down visually, what the Ward script was trying to convey. It is beautiful, tragic, fiery, gothic, hellish, and hopeless.

I agree.

1. I talked about her character development in broad strokes because her character development was in broad strokes. The writers agree. You can write it better than I did, sure, I give you that. But it's still jarring shifts in character motivation. Fighting to save everything is one of the only pieces of hot glue holding her character together at that point.
2. Yes.
3. Even in the Assembly cut they hardly fleshed out the idea of Morse being a "servant" of the Alien. They cut most material out of that plot line. For example, in the Rex Pickett rewrite, Morse gets cocooned, and does much more. But even then it's hardly much. They came in very cautiously about the idea, like someone wanted it, but it was too silly to put on paper that well.
4. I very much agree it was meant to be the final chapter, and I agree, it's a beautiful final chapter and a film I still enjoy. But to totally ignore the faults of the film is something I cannot do, it had all the material from Ward laid out right in front of everyone, and they came out with a really half assed version of what character arc she went through there, thinking they could just copy plot elements and glue it together and achieve the same result; when the material they cut and pasted was thought out, thoroughly, from progression of setting, to the entire setting, to, well, basically everything. Was a wooden planet too much? Yes. But the idea was still there, and they really could not write around what they were trying to do well enough, because they were rushed because of production time.
5. He didn't, I know.
6. David Giler and Walter Hill did really make a comical re-telling of Ward's script on paper.

Alien³

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
But it's still jarring shifts in character motivation.

What jarring shifts?

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
3. Even in the Assembly cut they hardly fleshed out the idea of Morse being a "servant" of the Alien.

Golic not Morse.

They fleshed it out well. He's an unstable character who sees the alien kill two people right in front of him. He's terrified at first, then accepting of his impending doom "You're gonna die too." Then when he sees it kill Clemens sparing him again he seems to think he has a connection to it. He thinks he's a servant to it "Tell me what to do next." but obviously gets himself killed in the process.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
But to totally ignore the faults of the film is something I cannot do, it had all the material from Ward laid out right in front of everyone, and they came out with a really half assed version of what character arc she went through there

You summed up her character Arc from Ward's script as: She crash lands, gets humiliated, isolated, delusional, rediscovers herself and finally a heroes sacrifice. There's not much difference in the final product of Alien 3.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
6. David Giler and Walter Hill did really make a comical re-telling of Ward's script on paper.

Would you file the film under comedy? :laugh:

NetworkATTH

NetworkATTH

#380
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 16, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
But it's still jarring shifts in character motivation.

What jarring shifts?

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
3. Even in the Assembly cut they hardly fleshed out the idea of Morse being a "servant" of the Alien.

Golic not Morse.

They fleshed it out well. He's an unstable character who sees the alien kill two people right in front of him. He's terrified at first, then accepting of his impending doom "You're gonna die too." Then when he sees it kill Clemens sparing him again he seems to think he has a connection to it. He thinks he's a servant to it "Tell me what to do next." but obviously gets himself killed in the process.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
But to totally ignore the faults of the film is something I cannot do, it had all the material from Ward laid out right in front of everyone, and they came out with a really half assed version of what character arc she went through there

You summed up her character Arc from Ward's script as: She crash lands, gets humiliated, isolated, delusional, rediscovers herself and finally a heroes sacrifice. There's not much difference in the final product of Alien 3.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 16, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
6. David Giler and Walter Hill did really make a comical re-telling of Ward's script on paper.

Would you file the film under comedy? :laugh:

The jarring shifts I'm referring to, is the not straight path should lead up to self sacrifice, but rather events that twist and turn the narrative to get to that point, with simple logic. For example, Ward's draft has significant backup of its desicions, everyone thinks the creature is a demon, Ripley has Demons, Ripley goes into the depths of the sphere (Her representative ego) and in there, has the confrontation between Maiden and Dragon, hallucinations which haunt her, she is confronting herself. There's nothing about confronting herself present, she is a single minded character, or build up to that with no conflict of killing herself aside from a few shots of her having second thoughts but knowing it has to be done. This isn't even a closure for her character as you're making it out, and I suppose you could always say it's just a brutal world, I get that. But what they wanted to do was give a tragic closure trope, and it didn't work because they were filming as the script was being rewritten and everything was rushed.

I'm going to tell you, what it got wrong. A while ago I read a copy of Ward's script that's a bit different than the commonly available one, I bought it on some forum that deals in those sorts of things. I have it in pdf somewhere, if I find it I'll upload it somewhere.  But it was much, more interesting, than the released one. The dog was missing, as well. There was no real pocket of air, outside, aside from the top reservoir. In this version, it's described as a solid column of atmosphere going out on top of it "like a spot light". Bu John looks out through giant plastic "airplane" windows, that are used to reflect light, and calculate the passing of stars. He sees the EEV in the beginning, from a classical telescope. The Alien also does not have the camouflage ability it has in the first draft. Aside from minor differences, that's it.

It all has to do with the Id, the Ego and the Super Ego. The Id, latin for It (this should sound meaninful in relation to the Alien. It.) It's the  part of you that carries on from birth, the cry for oxygen, the desire for food, the need to survive, the unconscious drives you have no choice in, just thoughts of survival, what you need, the small action that suggests maybe a sexual encounter with someone would be nice without considering their feelings about it, but only your own. Eating a steak is easier when you don't think about the cow, everyone, according to these older ideas, has an Id.



The Ego is the middle man, sating the Id, but coming up with ways of doing it that don't have consequences, or balance out the consequences for yourself. Sometimes, this gets out of control, your Id overpowers, and sometimes you think taking risks for gratification and relief become increasingly worth it. The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world. ... The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces. It serves three severe masters, the external world, the super-ego and the id. It can be pushed and pulled towards either depending on circumstances and that which you become from growth.



The Super-Ego, reflects the internalization of cultural rules, mainly taught by parents applying their guidance and influence. The installation of the super-ego can be described as a successful instance of identification with the parental agency.The super-ego retains the character of the father, while the more powerful the Oedipus complex was and the more rapidly it succumbed to repression (under the influence of authority, religious teaching, schooling and reading), the stricter will be the domination of the super-ego over the ego later on—in the form of conscience or perhaps of an unconscious sense of guilt.



Now, this idea of the personality is hopelessly outdated, your psychology relies much more on your physical health than a battle of thunder going on inside your unconscious mind. But in narratives, it is an incredibly useful tool, to describe the journey a character goes through. And, Alien is dripping with Freud to begin with. It's all Freudian. So, ending it in an all out Freud clash of personalities is actually a really neat idea.

The entirety of the Ward script builds up to either version of her suicide or the exorcism of her "demons, the chest burster inside of her is representative of the Id inside of her, this powerful Id that must destroy the Alien at all costs, running totally on instinct, much like the Alien. The Alien, and Ripley, in this sense, are similar, both single minded in their past hatred and desire to kill, and its hardly changed. One has to confront that, and reach a balance between Id and Super-Ego within the Ego itself. Ripley believes she is the Super-Ego to the Aliens Id, but it is not the case, the Alien was always an Id, a reptilian, a cold killer, a snake, a devil. It's been making Ripley the same, and Ripley has to confront how much death has surrounded her. It is either she achieves balance, that she lets loose her Id (Inhumanity) and ascends to Super-Ego, or her Id, symbolically bursts forth from her, and lays the eggs of a million Ids. The monks could be literally interpreted as, people who embraced the path of the Super-Ego, and Ripley just got damn lucky and landed on a place that could advance who she was in a traumatic event to balance the trauma inside her, but I tend to think of Ward's aborted recycled film, as more figurative. Regardless, Alien 3, as it is written, was meant to be primiarily focused on the idea continuing the Freudian themes, into a battle within the self to find inner-peace. Regardless of what you think of Ward's idea, that was the focus, it is clear as day and would have been clear, and they recycled elements, into a, in my opinion good Assembly Cut, but even then, and in Theatrical Release, it did not focus on finally allowing Ripley rest in peace.

So it all goes a bit like this. She is floating in nothingness, in her personality, herself, and literally floating in the void of space. She has survived on hard reliance on Id for the past three years, and it's all unbalanced, she has to change within herself, or she will cease to be the Ripley she knew. But first she must rest, she is exhausted, and must recover. But once she recovers, she will face the Alien again, within, and without.



Her journey within begins when she is ejected from the safe-space of the Sulaco, and everything she accomplished is ripped from her, impacting the outside of her ego, she's a chaotic force of Id after Alien, wanting to survive. And so, nothing but her survives, Ripley and Hicks have left her in, what you could interpret, as Her-Self ejecting her to a mission, a final mission, to balance herself, and reach inner peace. She impacts onto a place she doesn't know, a foriegn world, and the escape pod is flooded with water, and buckles under pressure (much like what we got), and a rescue team arrives to bring her in. The child and the soldier are dead. She is in shock, cannot speak, she's been ripped from her bed and thrown into this, you could say, Third Film, and she's instantly rejecting it in spasms. She is rescued by the monk who saw the shooting star of her craft. As she reaches the surface, monks carry her to safety. Lifted from the wreckage, she is in immense shock. This image is lifted Straight from a Goya piece called They Carried Her Off.




Her form as it is in the story is representative self-image, believing herself to be innocent, that none of this makes any sense when she knows throughout the journey it does make sense. She is just trying to survive, what did she do to deserve this? This, is the same personality of the Alien. The Alien doesn't think, it's Id, it's chaotic lust for sex and survival. Ripley is in a state of shock, of Id, losing herself to only the will to survive, nothing else, she has to live. In her mind, her trauma, has reduced herself to"I must live I must be back to normal I must live I must live I cannot die I must live"





The world, is the experiences of her personality before she came in contact with the Alien, it is the Ego she left when she "clicked" off at the end of Alien and further "click click click click click click clicked" off at the end of Aliens. She is far gone, you could imagine her heart will palpitate for the rest of her life. This Old World is drenched in Super-Ego, tradition, the feeling of praying before Christmas dinner, telling your daughter not to play with matches, going to church on a bright Sunday morning, it is the cold rhetoric she came in with Alien not letting Kane on the ship, it is the rule, the father, the parent, the belief of doing the right thing, both taught behavior and response to abuse. It is a reactionary world of tradition if gone unchallenged, if the Super-Ego is uncontrolled, left to grow while you are in a state of shall we say, Id Auto-Pilot, and it takes over your ego to balance out the imposing Id, you will get a reactionary, a hater of everything you fear that your parent's have told you to fear, but most of all, lack of control, and the pain of panic. You hate it, you hate the Id. So, the monks.





She is met with confusion, people don't understand her because she's full of energy, technology, the inability to survive outside of her technology makes her desperate. She is brought to the Abbot, the far Super-Ego. She tries to explain herself, what happened, who she is, what's at risk, and it's all Greek to him, and really Them all they see is an Id Woman barking about, somewhat confirming what they feared that she brings nothing but trouble. So, she's being met with angry zealots who represent her unconscious super-ego. She does her best to adapt, but this can't last, she has to make a change, make it work, make it make sense. She is troubled. She talks, with someone she learns is a synthetic, taking her to her craft. She is taken to the EEV, as she learns about the death of her surrogate daughter, and Hicks, she lost them to Id. She's in turmoil, and grief, and she sees burn or slime, or some small indicator of presence, but she can't see it again. Now she is in panic. It's happening again, not again, she has to warn someone, she is back in the survival mode of Id. In order to fix, this, she does not know, she has to confront both the Id and Super-Ego within her, in this neglected wooden marble.







So, of course, the Id arrives, a stowaway Alien on board the Sulaco the whole time, with two facehuggers. It's here. It is the representative darkness of Ripley's troubled unbalanced self. Livestock have begun going missing. A farmer, his friends, enters his shed, and an innocent sheep gives birth to a lamb, not an innocent lamb, no lamb of God. It is, a chestburster. A facehugger must have crawled out and implanted the lamb. They panic and gore the fetal thing with a pitchfork, (if I remember correctly) the acid results in a small fire, and it all goes to hell, but they put it out. But someone, is responsible for killing these animals.



The demon of memories she's carried with her into her Ego, is here, it's Id. It does not think, it operates on only a Kafka level of the primitive insect reptile frog, the spider, the primitive arthropod. Her will to survive comes from the same place as the will for sex, the will to eat, sleep, drink, you cannot travel through life without experiencing this, you cannot go in a survival situation, life or death, without letting your Id take control, this is Ripley from Alien to Aliens, especially Aliens. So, this representative Id, that has only grown in power, and ability to manipulate her, is obsessed with survival. Her remnant Super-Ego, Id, Ego, her disconnected sense of self, all in a powerless state of submission to Id.



The Monks, the representative Super-Ego Abbot, put her on a bizarre trial, she is judged, declared guilty and mocked, within this remnant ego, the Super-Ego (Monks) is just as Alien to the Id (Ripley, The Alien) as vice versa, laughable, horrifying, and other. Her hair is shaved in humiliation, and she is judged into the pitch black depths of her left Ego. Her EEV is burried under a mass of boards of wood.





This was a mistake. A critical error. They first another of its avatars, an innocent lamb. The Id, defends its own. Ripley is carrying its son, daughter, child, mother. Ripley, is a citizen of the state of Id, just like the beast. And as Ripley-Id had been judged by the Super-Ego, the manifestation of Id judges the Super-Ego. And it begins killing. Yanking men and their entrails into the floorboards, climbing down pillars and blocks and yanking up scared men, impaled by its tail. As the Super-Ego had begun the battle by making the first move on Id, it pays the most price. The demon they feared and have long dreaded, is here. An Id. Just like the world of Id they left, a world of only meaningless Id, filled with the hustle and bustle of men in suits, corporations with immunity, sex, disrespect, hatefulness, war, and lack of traditional values. They thanked God, and prayed to him for giving them safety, and keeping them away from the feeling of dominating Id. The Id is here. The Id has lived since life arose, it is the mind that only requires survival of itself, it has never been stopped, it cannot be stopped, and their arrogance has cost them. The Id has and they're already dead.











As the Super-Ego is diving into chaos of missing people and bodies and panic; the two friends she has, the riend inside the super-ego, the super-ego counter balance to the panic and xenophobia of Id, characters existing to balance the Super-Ego world, John the librarian, and a Synthetic, who believe they can help her, exorcise the Id from her, and this leftover Ego, and take out her confusion and anger and grief. They travel to the library. In all the long forgotten works of history the world forgot, came a truth they needed. History called the Id, original sin, the devil, the demon, a dragon, and a seductive prince, and all its associates. In a bleak world of moral blackness, the old ways, more naive, plainly point out, what Demons are in real life, avatars of what we see in ourselves, the Id. The Alien





Locked down inside the pitch black, wooden, but warped, ego. Ripley is terrified. In here, she has to battle herself and find out where she stands. She sees visions, the Alien doing its way with her, her impregnation, her child. Newt's head floating helplessly in the mouth of her tormenter. Dreams of demons, of monsters, the creature with the body of animals and screams. Dreams of the dead, Pavor Nocturnus visions, gnashing of teeth, the maw of the beast. She is a lost person. She is bitter, she lives on adrenaline, and she wants to be back to herself, and live in a world, and not be full of grief. She is the Ego just like this wooden world is, she is the disconnected Ego that left at the end of Alien, the trauma caused her to resort to her instincts, and play loose. The world, is the wooden world of herself she left behind she needs to return to, to balance. But she can't accept the Super-Ego either, its wrong, its not right, it's too powerful and zealous and ignorant. It requires balance, but her mind only can think of it from the perspective of Id, of survival, her desperation, grows, and so does the Id. She is beginning to lose herself, and her hope, driving her into an empty state of ego, and her inner response to that, is to counter with Id, along the lines of, you can't give up, you can't give up, you can't give up. There is nothing but unbalanced Id.






It takes a dark turn when she throws up, and is taken by the fact she is pregnant with overwhelming Id, she is losing herself to that world. Thoughts include "How am I so different from this Alien anymore". Everything she associates with infants, childbirth, is from the Super-Ego, but she can't relate. Id, cost her the life of her daughter she never came home to see,but the Super-Ego is still being rejected by her.




She is rescued, by John and the Synthetic. They rip the wood encrusting, the nailed panks apart, light comes in, and Ripley is in a state of emptiness. They update her on the situation, she doesn't see the point, she is unwilling. She She's convinced, and reluctantly joins them. They begin the task of crawling downwards, under the impression that they can stop the beast, in the "technology core", an area that is said might carry equipment to kill the beast, but no one has ventured in since the stations opening long ago. She does not let them know, that she realizes she's carrying the infant inside her.



Now back to the habitation layer, the home, all hell is breaking loose. Fires are running rampant, and men are running and hiding in terror. Teams form to flush out and gore the beast.  They believe they have it cornered it in the wheat fields.They travel in, and loose a good vantage point; they lose the ability to see one another, the wheat is too tall. Nervous, they move on farther within. Looking from above, the isolated group moves in, the wheat moving around them as they cautiously walk further, and the Alien, from the side, moving towards them. It takes them, yanking them down and killing one, two, three. They realize, panic and run, but its far too late, and they are pulled under one by one. Until it reaches the last man, who sees its hissing dripping jaws, its hands clasping around his skull, and then, nothing. Death.



They come across the Abbot, panicked, climbing down as well. He is convinced to join them. The Super-Ego begins to work together to find a solution to the Id, even Ripley, a state of Id previously, has went through herself, and she does not care for her life any more. She came out, of the imprisonment deep inside her figurative ego, so grief stricken, she does not care, the self is no longer fueled by desire of survival, of Id, but finding peace.  The torment of the beast drove the self into a neutral state of ego, her personality free to be influenced, at the hands of either Id or Super-Ego, and come to balance. The core, is the figurative core of her ego, once they reach this Ego-Core, might find an answer. From here on, is the conclusion.

They venture forth, and realize they are being stalked by the Alien. Of Id, trying to stop them, from reaching the core, of potentially solving the crisis representative of the struggle in Ripley. But they don't know where it is. They panic, running down halls and climbing down ladders, they run down a hallway but Ripley falls to the floor unconscious. Her eyes lazily open in the EEV, Klaxons blare, and she rushes for Newt's tube. She stops for a moment. The Alien suddenly screams, grabbing her. And spins her around.

"
    The Alien spins her – pushes her over across the sleep tube –
    Like it's taking her from behind!
    Ripley looks down into the sleep tube:
    Newt is gone.
    Her doll's head lays in a pool of blood.
    The Alien wraps his arms around Ripley.
    Thin lips pull back
    She SCREAMS."
"
She wakes up to a desperate group trying to wake her up. She recovers, knowing the urgency and they continue running to the core. They hurry finally, down into the corridor into the core. The android is first to fall into the trap, there are bear traps hidden throughout the corridor, and one snaps around his ankle, milky fluid drips down. There is little visible light, they are running out of flares/candles to light their way, they hardly light their path. They cautiously enter, trying caution, while the android attempts to free himself. They hear a hiss, and realize the Alien is right behind them, waiting on a ledge. Figuratively, the bare traps to prevent anyone from accessing the forbidden tech, and the Alien just waiting there itself, are all parts of Ripley. The bare trap, protection of the inner workings of the self, and the Alien, Id, waiting there to stop what they're trying to accomplish, to stop Ripley from her journey of finding herself. They hurry, and manage to get to the end, the android limping loose. They, approach the metal bulkhead, and discover in horror there's no way in. There's no access panel or any unlocking mechanism to let them in. The Alien walks towards them imposing, and is locked down by a bear trap. It howls, and acid spills out in pools, igniting the wood, and desperatly tries to free itself. The small fire gives enough light, and they begin desperately clawing at the wood surrounding the metal to find a way inside. The Alien screams and is getting loose, claws waving in fury. Desperate fingers cut themselves in splintering wood and jagged metal. The Alien melts the bear trap and frees itself, hissing and walking towards them. Hands claw at the wood. Acid drips to the floor from the beast's wound, igniting patches around itself. Hands, filled with dread and Id, claw furiously. The fire begins to ignite the wood, and smoke and soot fill the air, the Alien is close behind them and behind the Alien are flames. The Alien limps forward. Furious hands on wood. It limps, limps again, and a bear trap catches its ankle, it screams in agony, more acid bubbles out, and quickly makes work of the metal around it. They find a keycode and desperately mash any combination they can think of.  The Alien is nearly on them, limping, infuriated, the Abbot pushes them away, enters a keycode, and the door slides open, blinding light fills the chamber and they all rush in. The Alien reaches out its skeletal arms and grabs the synthetic, Anthony, and begins to open him up from the back and claw him from inside, they enter a tug of war with Anthony, and pull the synethic free, falling on top of one another in the blinding light, The Alien reaches out for them screaming, and the door locks down on it. It screams and clangs on the sliding bulkhead in desperation. They're in.



What they see, is soul crushing. There is no technology inside. It's a safe metal orb, locked down in the center of the station, lit. But the metal is covered in wood. And there is nothing that can help them. There are just windmills. Figuratively, at the core of Ripley is still the tradition and protocol of the Super-Ego, shown in the first film. It is tranquil, but it is her. The Self. It could imply, that they really do get what they need, and its Ripley begining to make sense of her turmoil. Everyone feels defeated, John realizes the abbot knew the whole time. They get in an argument, but realize there's not a point, they're doomed. They converse, mostly, Ripley reflects on her life. The conversation leads to wondering where the Alien came from. They touch upon the idea that it was a weapon of some kind, created by a world long forgotten. What is interesting, is since this story treats the Alien as an out of control insidious Freudian Id, they would bring this up, because there's another monster like that born from Ancient Civilization in a classic science fiction film, Forbidden Planet. The Abbot admits he knew, that the technology was initially deployed to make the station habitable, and the rest of the systems that maintain the massive Oxygen flow, are horizons of windmills (Ripley's self-sustaining personality).



They argue again, and the Abbot shakes in seizure, and blurts out half words and nonsensical sounds, and his head violently caves in, and blood pools out, met with tiny hands grasping brain and skull, and the cries of a pupal Alien. It uncoils itself from around his now violently mushy brain matter and sinus cavity (Embryo must have been ejected from his stomach, out his throat, into his sinus cavity), and tries to escape. Ripley grabs the Abbot's staff and and beats it to death, and whacks the corpse away from them.  Ripley becomes anxious, believing that the Alien influenced the Abbot to find them, and that it now knows what they plan.

This is already really long, so I'll wrap it up. Anthony convinces them to leave him, as he can hardly move and he'd be a burden, he tells them he'll be fine.They find a way out, reaching a canal, to coracle boat, on a dock and row down as blood drips from the smoldering ceiling. Ripley reflects on her life, her daughter. Unseen, the Alien swims, stalking them underwater. They reach the surface, and an uncontrolled inferno is roaring. There are body parts, limbs, torsos, everywhere. The Alien had begun to create a nest, and people are cocooned on the walls, in egg-morphing. The once painted blue ceiling is now covered in cocconed victims and waffle-pattern nesting material, and chewed wood spat out in a pattern. They rush to the library to recover what books they can, Ripley grasping her sides along the way. Ripley's entire world is in shambles.

As they reach the library, they gather the books, and in the background, the Alien walks in, unnoticed to the characters but not the audience. As it limps towards them, Ripley sees it first and yelps in surprise. It is carrying someone's head, half eaten, its claws firmly, not holding it, but driven inside it, holding it from inside. It shakes the half eaten, puppet skull wildly, as to taunt them. It rears its head back and cackles in a way that sounds like choking, but is unmistakably laughter. It begins walking towards them. It brings its head towards the skull, its tongue taking a chunk out of the skull, eating it, and it throws the skull towards them. They move back, cornered. The wood beneath them creaks. The Alien leaves a trail of flames from its ankle wound when it walks. The floor begins to bend along the flames beneath it. The Alien continues. Ripley is knocked out of breath in horror as she shrinks away from the pulpy skull thrown at her. The Alien continues. Ripley grasps her stomach in pain. The Alien continues, Ripley finally can find air through her empty gasps and inhales a huge breath of air. John looks at her. She exhales. The Alien is described as sounding out the words "The Whore" in a crossed between whistling, hissing, whispering, and sighing, as if from an old man. Ripley begins to shout, and shout, and shout, and taunt the Alien, it becomes agitated and limps quicker towards them, and the floor gives way in a hurricane of books and beams and shelves, they scream as they fall a floor down, into the glass works. They're fine. The Alien is not. It lands right into a vat of molten glass. It bursts out and hot glass splash around it, it screams in desperation and pain and tries pulling itself out, it begins to melt. It gets slower, and slower, and slower, until it finally pulls itself out, and falls down, it shatters itself, and its glass fragments reflect in the light. Ripley's rampant demon, the central Id, renders itself as fragile as glass in the confrontation, Ripley confronts her fear, and it metaphorically turned weak with bones of glass.

They reach the EEV, and Ripley doubles over in pain. There are two endings to this. But the first draft, that involved the exorcism, is not from the one I read (3rd Draft). Ripley says she's fine, and they both walk into the EEV. Ripley is preparing the EEV, finishes, and runs out, and locks the doors. It seems as if she is happy, in a state of peace. Ripley is in the pangs of birth, but endures them with a smile. John demands Ripley tell what she's doing. She tells John he's sorry, but that she has to end this. In an almost Terminator 2 ending, before Terminator 2, the way its dealt with is shockingly similar. "No don't go you don't have to do this!" "I'm sorry but this is the only way, I have to end it." "No please don't go!" "I'm sorry". Ripley tells John to get out in the EEV, let people know what happened, and that she has to "Confront her fears". She looks at the raging inferno, closes her eyes, spreads her arms apart, breathes in, and out. She walks into the flames, and her body goes from figure, slowly dissolving into nothing but orange as she walks into it. There aren't any screams, and its described that she is "almost embracing the fire". John looks at the display and closes his eyes, but is suddenly jolted as the EEV shakes free from the chains holding it, its exhaust feeds the flames around it, and John sees nothing but flames out the cockpit window, he holds on as alarms go off, the EEV continues to shake, and John holds on as it throws him back, and rockets through the crumbling ceiling. The cockpit window shows it going through multiple decks of wood by its firing blue engines burning the wood through. It bursts through a layer of metal, and flames escape the cockpit window from the wooden world, and from the cockpit now, is just the endless expanse of space. It shows the EEV rocketing away from the burning world.



John sighs, and realizes that he can now walk comfortably and doesn't have to grip the railing for dear life. He, looks around, enters the cockpit, and sits down in a chair. He looks in awe, at the instruments of technology around him, and the vast emptiness of space. John tears up, and begins to laugh in disbelief at what just happened the past day and a half. But as his eyes water up, he just looks into space with the awe of a child. We are given "Several minutes of the tableau of twinkling stars" and the script ends in "The End"



Now these are briefly touched upon in Alien 3, but this is just not the same kind of detail, the ways that she goes from point A to point B to point C on her journey, I would say, are neither bad nor good. They are mediocre to average. Again, I enjoy Alien 3, but I would have enjoyed Alien 3 a bit better if it wasn't a mess and followed through, any, of the plot ideas given in this draft.

You are implying that it isn't agreed upon that this film has narrative faults, when it really just does, those are facts.

Edit: I have this draft, it's a third draft by Greg Press and Vincent Ward from June, 14th 1990. I don't know if anybody's read it, If I'm allowed I'll upload it tomorrow morning, I'm going to bed.

Alien³

Alien³

#381
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 02:53:53 AM
she is a single minded character, or build up to that with no conflict of killing herself aside from a few shots of her having second thoughts but knowing it has to be done. This isn't even a closure for her character as you're making it out, and I suppose you could always say it's just a brutal world, I get that. But what they wanted to do was give a tragic closure trope,

The Ripley from Ward's script is battling demons internally and externally. The Ripley from the movie is only battling the Alien externally. When she learns of the Queen inside her, you're right, she has no conflict of killing herself aside from a few shots of her having second thoughts but knowing it has to be done because its right. She's a stronger character with no inner demons because she is the product of being right in a universe full of wrongs.

Ward's script is all about someone facing their fears whereas the final movie (whether intentional or not) presents us a character who has already faced her fears. Thats the arc seen in Aliens.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 02:53:53 AM
You are implying that it isn't agreed upon that this film has narrative faults, when it really just does, those are facts.

Faults you haven't presented. So far all you've done is say that Ward's script was a better arc for Ripley because she has inner demons to face. That doesn't reflect negatively on the actual movie we've got because its a different story and arc for Ripley.

NetworkATTH

NetworkATTH

#382
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 17, 2015, 08:35:39 AM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 02:53:53 AM
she is a single minded character, or build up to that with no conflict of killing herself aside from a few shots of her having second thoughts but knowing it has to be done. This isn't even a closure for her character as you're making it out, and I suppose you could always say it's just a brutal world, I get that. But what they wanted to do was give a tragic closure trope,

The Ripley from Ward's script is battling demons internally and externally. The Ripley from the movie is only battling the Alien externally. When she learns of the Queen inside her, you're right, she has no conflict of killing herself aside from a few shots of her having second thoughts but knowing it has to be done because its right. She's a stronger character with no inner demons because she is the product of being right in a universe full of wrongs.

Ward's script is all about someone facing their fears whereas the final movie (whether intentional or not) presents us a character who has already faced her fears. Thats the arc seen in Aliens.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 02:53:53 AM
You are implying that it isn't agreed upon that this film has narrative faults, when it really just does, those are facts.

Faults you haven't presented. So far all you've done is say that Ward's script was a better arc for Ripley because she has inner demons to face. That doesn't reflect negatively on the actual movie we've got because its a different story and arc for Ripley.

I'm not implying Ward's script has a better arc just because she has a demon to face. It's not just that Ripley was facing her fears, she was facing herself. I'm implying they tried to recycle that idea into the plot of the third film we got, at the hands of David Giler and Walter Hill, who adapted the ideas into a different context. Along with rushed production, we received a beautiful film, that was relatively light on plot, and the released assembly cut in my opinion, is a good movie, but nothing above that. It's not a great movie, or a mind blowing movie, it's just average/good.


Alien³

It's plot is as thick as it's predecessors.

NetworkATTH

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 17, 2015, 03:08:11 PM
It's plot is as thick as it's predecessors.

It's not but that's besides the point, I like the movie, I'm not shitting all over Alien 3, the Assembly Cut is a good film, but it is dissapointing because they could have done so much more with what they had right in front of them the whole time, but everything was working against them. Fincher actively didn't co-operate with Giler and Hill, on where they thought the story should go from their re-writes.

Alien³

How is its plot not as thick as Alien or Aliens?

NetworkATTH

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 17, 2015, 03:14:52 PM
How is its plot not as thick as Alien or Aliens?

I never implied it wasn't.

HuDaFuK

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 03:12:38 PMIt's not but that's besides the point, I like the movie, I'm not shitting all over Alien 3, the Assembly Cut is a good film, but it is dissapointing because they could have done so much more with what they had right in front of them the whole time, but everything was working against them.

With the exception of Gibson's second draft and possibly Twohy's script, none of the discarded Alien 3 scripts are as good as the film we ultimately got.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 03:12:38 PMFincher actively didn't co-operate with Giler and Hill, on where they thought the story should go from their re-writes.

Giler and Hill, the people who wanted Ghengis Khan to fight the Alien in the first film. I'm inclined to give credit to Fincher's intentions long before theirs.

NetworkATTH

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Mar 17, 2015, 03:19:46 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 03:12:38 PMIt's not but that's besides the point, I like the movie, I'm not shitting all over Alien 3, the Assembly Cut is a good film, but it is dissapointing because they could have done so much more with what they had right in front of them the whole time, but everything was working against them.

With the exception of Gibson's second draft and possibly Twohy's script, none of the discarded Alien 3 scripts are as good as the film we ultimately got.


Very debatable.

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Mar 17, 2015, 03:19:46 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 03:12:38 PMFincher actively didn't co-operate with Giler and Hill, on where they thought the story should go from their re-writes.

Giler and Hill, the people who wanted Ghengis Khan to fight the Alien in the first film. I'm inclined to give credit to Fincher's intentions long before theirs.

That is actually the point I'm making. I was saying Fincher, I'm assuming, because he's actually a good film maker, wanted to keep some of the motifs from the various material he read from the project, from half finished scripts by Giler and Hill to Ward/Fassano/Rex etc. But Giler and Hill were on the "side" of the studio, wanted things to go shot by shot from the script, this scene, next. That's not a way to make a movie, it's a collaborative experience. A collaborative experience was not what Fincher was given.

HuDaFuK

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 17, 2015, 03:23:31 PMVery debatable.

Ward's was the last of the unmade Alien 3 scripts I read. Given the amount of hype it's been given over the years, I was utterly underwhelmed when I finally read it. The location was cool but completely illogical, and beyond that the story and characters were really weak. Even Ripley wasn't that interesting. Plus it had way too many wtf moments that just made no sense. I was expecting a hell of a lot more.

The film they actually made, even with it's flaws, is far superior. For the most part, it took the best elements from Ward's script and threw out all the rubbish.

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