User Information

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic b...  (Read 163612 times)

happypred
Nov 29, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
Reply #30 on: Nov 29, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
I've been unable to take A V P seriously.  It's just hokey to me now

...because Cameron thinks it's silly? AvP is silly when it's executed poorly. There's nothing hokey about having two alien species in one universe. Aliens: the ultimate survival machines. Predators: the ultimate hunters. They fit together quite organically.

Quote
Alien is a much more elegant,  high-brow, philosophically rich series to me now while everything to do with the Predators just seems sort of childish.

You're certainly entitled to your "Aliens elitist" opinion (to each his own as you've said) but I believe the sophistication or depth of either franchise depends mainly on the skill of the writer handling it.

You can write a "childish" Aliens story. You can write a mature, "philosophically rich" Predator story. Perhaps the Aliens franchise has a higher ceiling  for "philosophical richness" but the Predator franchise doesn't have to be childish. I think a skilled writer could write a mature, stimulating Predator story.

I think South China Sea represents a step in the right direction (I wouldn't call it philosophically rich...but it's well-written and quite mature). I hope Rage War ends up being even better


HuDaFuK
Nov 29, 2014, 04:59:22 PM
Reply #31 on: Nov 29, 2014, 04:59:22 PM
You're certainly entitled to your "Aliens elitist" opinion (to each his own as you've said) but I believe the sophistication or depth of either franchise depends mainly on the skill of the writer handling it.

I don't think he's being elitist at all. The Alien films (or at least the first three) are very serious movies with some deep themes. The Predator films, by comparison, are cheesy and simplistic. I find them no less entertaining, but they're markedly more low-brow in tone.

Sure, I'm sure there's lots of deep Predator EU material. But the films are many people's major impression of the series.


RakaiThwei
Nov 29, 2014, 11:22:50 PM
Reply #32 on: Nov 29, 2014, 11:22:50 PM
The Alien films (or at least the first three) are very serious movies with some deep themes. The Predator films, by comparison, are cheesy and simplistic. I find them no less entertaining, but they're markedly more low-brow in tone.

In agreement with Hudafuk here, but this is addressed more to HappyPred.

The Alien films are considered more "serious" Sci-Fi when compared to the likes of the Predator films. I mean even Fox is going out of their way to essentially reboot/rewrite the mythology of the Alien, rather than so much the Predator mythologies (I am accounting EVERY interpretation of the Predators- Yautja and Hish). And as a Predator fan, it does pain me to say that the Alien films have some deeper metaphorical meaning to it that lots of people like.. artsy fartsy stuff.. And that's fine.

But as a Predator fan, I've had to come to gripes with the fact that Predator is nothing more than an 80s B Action flick that happened to have a few A lister stars. The reason Predator is popular is because of it's embracing of the 80s stereotype of machisimo and explosions, and of course greased up muscle men. It's a popcorn flick and that's what it has going for it.. You're not going to find the meaning of life or any of the artsy metaphor stuff that the Alien movies have in it. Look to Prometheus and Alien for that.

Someone likened Alien to a fine wine.. and Predator to a great beer. I'll take the beer, please!  ;D

Sure, I'm sure there's lots of deep Predator EU material. But the films are many people's major impression of the series.

Heavy truth to this. The EU does have a lot of deep stuff for it as far as the Predator is concerned. Infact, the (old) EU is what had made me become even more of a Predator fan than just watching the films alone could've done for me. I actually prefer the whole Yautja interpretation and the mythology which it presented. The Perry novels showed that the Predators do have a point of view and a very deep, spiritual side to them as well and how they view the Hunt. I know a lot of people prefer what is on the films but for me I prefer the Yautja interpretation.. I'm not going to touch the Hish mythology because of the things I've heard about, and the changes which had been made-- not to mention I haven't read it.

Talk to anyone about the Predator.. Nine times out of ten, you're going to get the guy who has seen only the movies and doesn't really know much about the mythology and assumes all of the movies are connected. Chances are this same guy is the kind of guy who thinks that a Predator got killed by Danny Glover, not Michael R. Harrigan and makes a joke out of it. Point of the matter is-- the films are what enter the people's minds. Not so much the EU, assuming they haven't been made aware of it's existence.


happypred
Nov 30, 2014, 10:03:35 AM
Reply #33 on: Nov 30, 2014, 10:03:35 AM
I don't think he's being elitist at all. The Alien films (or at least the first three) are very serious movies with some deep themes. The Predator films, by comparison, are cheesy and simplistic. I find them no less entertaining, but they're markedly more low-brow in tone.

Notice how I never said the Predator films are as "high-brow" (whatever that means) as the Alien films. Thus, I don't think you're really addressing my argument, which is that the Predator series has the potential to be "philosophically rich" if a good writer has the desire to take it in that direction.

Also, notice how that he doesn't simply say "Predator is cheesier than Alien". He's not comparing the films. He's comparing the franchises, i.e. the core concept of Aliens vs. the core concept of Predator. Anyway, that's how I'm interpreting this statement:

Quote
Alien is a much more elegant,  high-brow, philosophically rich series to me now while everything to do with the Predators just seems sort of childish

If he's only saying "Predator is cheesier than Alien", I wouldn't say that's an elitist view. If he's saying "the Predator concept is childish, whereas the Alien concept is 'high-brow'". Yeah...that's pretty damned elitist

But as a Predator fan, I've had to come to gripes with the fact that Predator is nothing more than an 80s B Action flick that happened to have a few A lister stars. The reason Predator is popular is because of it's embracing of the 80s stereotype of machisimo and explosions, and of course greased up muscle men. It's a popcorn flick and that's what it has going for it

That's like saying Alien is nothing more than a rip-off of Howard Hawks' The Thing (1951). Alien is a great movie because of superb execution. The same could be said of Predator

Predator is arguably the best action movie ever made. If you think an action movie with muscular actors = "low-brow", I don't have much to say to you other than "you're entitled to your opinion"

Quote
You're not going to find the meaning of life or any of the artsy metaphor stuff that the Alien movies have in it.

You found the meaning of life in Alien? Right...

Quote
Look to Prometheus and Alien for that.

No...I definitely won't be looking for the meaning of life in the hugely disappointing Prometheus.


RakaiThwei
Nov 30, 2014, 11:03:39 AM
Reply #34 on: Nov 30, 2014, 11:03:39 AM
That's like saying Alien is nothing more than a rip-off of Howard Hawks' The Thing (1951). Alien is a great movie because of superb execution. The same could be said of Predator

I never said that a particular film was a rip-off of some other work of fiction. While Predator is a film which is superbly executed, it doesn't change the fact that it embraced the stereotypes what made the action film genre such a big fad back in 1980s-- that's why the original has such incredible staying power. I like Predator a lot, I am more of a Predator fan than Alien but I'm looking at it with the rose tinted glasses off. Also Predator happened to draw inspiration or parallels from a literary classic.. Beowulf!

Infact.. Predator can be seen as a modern retelling of Beowulf! I mean Dutch and the gang couldn't take Diablo out with all their high tech weaponry and explosives.. until Dutch stripped himself of all that and took it on with nothing but primitive and makeshift weaponry and traps. In Beowulf, Grendel couldn't be killed with arrows, swords and catapults.. Beowulf killed him by his lonesome with nothing but his hands and know how. See the similarities?

Predator is arguably the best action movie ever made. If you think an action movie with muscular actors = "low-brow", I don't have much to say to you other than "you're entitled to your opinion"

Predator is one of the best action movies ever made, but I could list a number of action movies which rival or are simply better than Predator. Also I never once said that Predator was low brow, where the hell are you getting that idea from? What I am saying is that the first movie, was a product of it's time-- a 1980s action movie with big muscular guys who deliver memorable one liners and awesome explosions. 80s action movies are my kind of thing, and I love that shit. Mm'kay? Pop in a DVD Blu-ray of Predator, Robocop, The Terminator, First Blood.. I will be happy with that shit.

You found the meaning of life in Alien? Right...

I was sarcastically referring to the metaphorical artsy stuff which I was referring to in earlier parts of my previous post. You know the deeper themes which Hudafuk mentioned?

No...I definitely won't be looking for the meaning of life in the hugely disappointing Prometheus.

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh! I'll have to admit, while I immensely liked the movie when it first came out.. I've started to like it less and less.


HuDaFuK
Nov 30, 2014, 01:44:53 PM
Reply #35 on: Nov 30, 2014, 01:44:53 PM
Predator is arguably the best action movie ever made. If you think an action movie with muscular actors = "low-brow", I don't have much to say to you other than "you're entitled to your opinion"

Predator is low-brow. It's got no plot to speak of, corny dialogue, cheesy acting and is essentially a pastiche of films Arnie/Stallone et al. had made several times before.

That's not to say it isn't one of the best action movies ever made - I actually think it is - but it's not sophisticated at all.


RakaiThwei
Nov 30, 2014, 02:30:03 PM
Reply #36 on: Nov 30, 2014, 02:30:03 PM
Predator is low-brow. It's got no plot to speak of, corny dialogue, cheesy acting and is essentially a pastiche of films Arnie/Stallone et al. had made several times before.

I have to disagree with that sentiment. Especially the no plot argument.  Clearly it does have a plot. Albeit a simple one but it does have one. It's a spin on The Most Dangerous Game.


Corporal Hicks
Dec 01, 2014, 10:09:31 AM
Reply #37 on: Dec 01, 2014, 10:09:31 AM
I think that the Predator series is the most versatile of the franchises in terms of story telling. Alien has a habit of being the same 3 or so stories every time. Predator is able to be any time, any story and any character without the restrictions of the Alien universe. Of course, that also has the potential to get too same-y but...that's just my stance.


HuDaFuK
Dec 01, 2014, 10:14:55 AM
Reply #38 on: Dec 01, 2014, 10:14:55 AM
I think the Alien series has the potential to be equally versatile, it just never happens because COLONIL MARIENS RULE.

That unused idea for a third film of hunting a Xenomorph in a Blade Runner metropolis, for example, could've been great.


Russ
Dec 01, 2014, 01:18:25 PM
Reply #39 on: Dec 01, 2014, 01:18:25 PM
There was a really insane Rutger Hauer movie that did just that. I can't remember what it was called, but I do remember that the it had  xeno (well, demonic entity) and the sidekick guy was called "Dick Derken" -- and he started off all nerdy then went into a "we need bigger guns" frenzy. It was set in Future London - I think in the Underground stations that were no longer in use... it was years ago when I saw it (I saw it, goddamn it, I saw it). Split Second... Point Blank - it was called something like that, anyway.

As for Predator being low brow. With the benefit of hindsight, maybe. Not at the time - the reveal was awesome, it was a really clever idea - and nothing like or anything to do with Alien. No one even thought to put to the two together until that throwaway nod in the sequel started an entire industry.

Whoever had he idea -- it was a great one. (I bet many of you know the history more than me).

That said, Alien movies are more cerebral - but that doesn't make (the first) Predator daft. Also, its a beautifully constructed film - all the beats are there and there's some great acting. I know that its easy to make fun of these 80s films now, but there are some great moments -- check at Dillon and the General looking at each other when Dutch's attention is on the map. They KNOW they're setting him up and they FEEL shit about it. And, when Arnie says to Dillon that he used to be someone he could trust - there's genuine regret and hurt in the performance.



Perfect-Organism
Dec 01, 2014, 01:26:18 PM
Reply #40 on: Dec 01, 2014, 01:26:18 PM
The Aliens vs Predator comic series came out before Predator 2 the movie.  The alien head in predator 2 was a nod to the comics...


HuDaFuK
Dec 01, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Reply #41 on: Dec 01, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
I wasn't trying to belittle Predator when I said it was low-brow... Low-brow can be fun as all hell. And I fully agree it's one of the classic action movies (in fact, I think the shootout at the beginning is a contender for the best ever put on film, it's incredible). I just don't think those films have the elegance of the first three Alien films. They were making a fun film, rather than a gripping film.

Also, I can't help but wonder if people would still care all that much if we got the original Van Damme Predator in 1987... Winston's design did a lot for that movie.

« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2014, 01:30:26 PM by HuDaFuK »

Russ
Dec 01, 2014, 02:48:30 PM
Reply #42 on: Dec 01, 2014, 02:48:30 PM
The Aliens vs Predator comic series came out before Predator 2 the movie.  The alien head in predator 2 was a nod to the comics...

No way? Really! I'm shocked - I remember being blown away seeing the alien head in the movie and I had the first comic book (where Dutch's brother was the main guy)... I'm not disputing you're right, I'm sure you are, but I don't remember seeing the comics before the movie - then again, getting hold of imports was a much more specialised and labourious business than it is nowadays, so it must have been that they were available and I just didn't know they were there.


Perfect-Organism
Dec 01, 2014, 10:30:38 PM
Reply #43 on: Dec 01, 2014, 10:30:38 PM
Hmmm, just to be sure, I thought I'd double check.  The AVP craze started in Dark Horse Presents #34 which featured an Aliens story where the Alien Queen was on a predator ship.  This was November 01, 1989.  It was an Aliens story but it was the first chapter in the first Aliens Vs. Predator series.

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/91-166/Dark-Horse-Presents-34

The story was continued in Dark Horse Presents #35 in December 1989.  This was a Predator story, but if you look closely, you can see an Alien head mounted onto one of the Predator character's chest armor.

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/91-167/Dark-Horse-Presents-35

The first actual Alien Vs. Predator confrontation took place in Dark Horse Comics Presents #36 which was the culmination of the 3-part run in Dark Horse Presents.  This issue  came out in February 1990.

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/91-168/Dark-Horse-Presents-36

(These 3 Dark Horse tales were eventually reprinted in Aliens Vs. Predator # 0 on July 01, 1990, and of course subsequently in the Aliens Vs. Predator TPB) 

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/91-043/Aliens-vs-Predator-0-of-4

Man, that seems so long ago.  Nobody even really heard of Nirvana or Kurt Cobain back then.  No Oasis, no Spice Girls, no Brittney Spears, no Alien 3.

But the official first issue of Aliens Vs. Predator came out on June 1 1990 (ahead of #0)

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/91-044/Aliens-vs-Predator-1-of-4

According to IMDB, Predator 2 premiered in Westwood, California, on November 19, 1990.  So, the series definitely started in the comics.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100403/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_ov_inf+

It was apparent that the authors at Dark Horse were trying to create a story with loftier goals than the Predator movies on their own, but although the AVP stories in the comics were great, I just don't think that their quality was quarried through into the films.  There can be no loftier questions in life than where do we come from?, or what is our purpose?  For better or for worse, the Alien series tries to tackle these questions.  Although, one can't expect to find the meaning of life in Hollywood horror / sci-fi, the speculative nature of the Aliens series makes it more fun.  Every mystery solved, unearths another mystery.  But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  I love the Predator films too, but its just a different kettle of fish.  I think RakaiThwei said it best, Alien is like a fine wine, and Predator is like a great beer.  It's ok like this.  Beer's great too...


Russ
Dec 02, 2014, 10:33:16 AM
Reply #44 on: Dec 02, 2014, 10:33:16 AM
Thanks for double checking, as I say I had no argument with your dates, but the film was definitely the first cross-over I saw.

You're right though, the ideas were never really translated across that well (I say that as a huge fan of the first AvP movie), but I guess it is easier to do things in a series of comics than it is on film.

Which is why we should have an AvP verse tv show! Beer and wine. At the same time. It'd be great while it lasted, then we'd all be sick with a hangover of diminishing returns!


 

Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube RSS Feed