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Author Topic: AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?  (Read 7759 times)

Aug 29, 2014, 06:23:58 AM
Reply #30 on: Aug 29, 2014, 06:23:58 AM
I think that there are two AvP universes.. One which involves the AvP movies and perhaps by extension, the old expanded universe.. And then there is the new AvP universe which has PREDATORS and Prometheus, but not the AvP movies. It's like SNK's Art of Fighting/Fatal Fury and The King of Fighters timelines. I guess I can explain that a bit.

However, I'll put this under spoilers to condense for space.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If the AvP movies are to be considered canon with the Predator and Alien movies, while keeping in mind that PREDATORS and Prometheus distances themselves from the AvP movies.. Similarly, what's explained to the compared franchises above has to somehow happen. If we take into account Fire and Stone, then there maybe two AvP universes.

You have one universes which has the first two Predator films, which is then continued on with AvP and AvP-R, as well as the old expanded universe as well while keeping in mind of games like AvP2010, and of course.. the four Alien films.

And then there is the new and now currently focused timeline which will comprise of the three Predator films (although PREDATORS is still debated where THAT fits), possibly Shane Black's movie, the Prometheus films, Fire and Stone.. and then the Alien films.

Now understand that this is all speculation and the explanation is a comparison and attempt to explain that somehow perhaps both timelines are right. Also if it seems my analogy to the Alien-Predator franchises in comparison to the AOF/FF and KOF franchises seems.. well.. wrong.. I just tried my best to explain how things could work in this mess we call canon. Until a big wig says something.. That's all we can do.


« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2014, 06:26:45 AM by RakaiThwei »

Aug 29, 2014, 06:35:03 AM
Reply #31 on: Aug 29, 2014, 06:35:03 AM
Prometheus and Requiem are financially successful in the sense that they both made accounting profits.

From an economic perspective, both are lacklustre. Economic profit factors in opportunity cost. That's why profit ratio is an important metric. Investing 40 million dollars for a 42 million dollar domestic return (likewise investing 130 million dollars for a 126 million domestic return) is not considered good in the movie industry. Both Prometheus and Requiem relied heavily on foreign gross for impressive numbers. Movie studios however make much less profit off foreign gross than they do off domestic gross. To a movie studio, 50 million dollars of domestic gross is worth a lot more than 50 million dollars of foreign gross.

AvP Requiem (benefiting from both the "Aliens" and "Predator" names) should've made much more than 128 million dollars (only 42 million of that amount being domestic revenue). If it had been a halfway decent film (and if AvP 2004 had been much better), the AvP franchise could've reaped in much larger amounts.

The same is true of Prometheus. A Ridley Scott vehicle tied to the Aliens universe. On the domestic box office, it actually recorded a loss of 4 million dollars. That's bad. Most of my friends thought it was disappointing. They were expecting much more. People were laughing in the cinema when the stupid scientist tried to fondle the snake and when Vickers got crushed.   

Aug 29, 2014, 09:06:05 AM
Reply #32 on: Aug 29, 2014, 09:06:05 AM
Anecdotes always trump more actual broadbased data.

Aug 29, 2014, 10:51:21 AM
Reply #33 on: Aug 29, 2014, 10:51:21 AM
That's beside the point

Prometheus was a domestic flop worse than AvP Requiem, which domestically managed to make slightly more than its prod budget...something Prometheus couldn't even do.

That probably wouldn't have been the case if Prometheus had been a better movie. I mean...yeah, the film has much better reviews than Requiem, but its financial performance is actually quite similar to Requiem's, albeit on a larger scale (bigger cost, bigger gross, near-identical domestic/foreign distribution)

I'd argue that both movies failed to fully realise the franchise's potential, Prometheus arguably being more disappointing as it was expected to be Ridley's triumphant return to sci-fi

Aug 29, 2014, 11:35:03 AM
Reply #34 on: Aug 29, 2014, 11:35:03 AM
That's beside the point

...of course it is...

Sep 01, 2014, 08:07:47 PM
Reply #35 on: Sep 01, 2014, 08:07:47 PM
It's expanded universe content.  I don't think it's a good enough fit to all be considered canon.  These movies stand on their own.

Sep 07, 2014, 06:41:57 AM
Reply #36 on: Sep 07, 2014, 06:41:57 AM
I view the AVP movies the same as I do with Dragon Ball GT. I view them in their own timeline and not apart of the main universe.

Sep 13, 2014, 12:19:01 AM
Reply #37 on: Sep 13, 2014, 12:19:01 AM
Obviously I consider them part of the same universe, and they've always been intended that way and FOX has always regarded them that way.

Sep 13, 2014, 03:18:06 AM
Reply #38 on: Sep 13, 2014, 03:18:06 AM
Obviously I consider them part of the same universe, and they've always been intended that way and FOX has always regarded them that way.

A part of me wishes to believe that, a part of me doesn't..


Sep 13, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
Reply #39 on: Sep 13, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
Couldn't care less. AvP was a spin-off and with though there is nothing terribly contradictive in Prometheus that some enthusiasts can't do the mental gymnastics for, it's evident that the series is increasingly being pushed aside and forgotten as just a spin-off.

Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Reply #40 on: Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Honestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other, they simply act in a manner of continuity similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe where there are crossovers and separate storylines but they all ultimately take place within the very same fictional (and profitable) universe.

It began with Dark Horse Comics first suggesting the concept of the shared universe in 1989 (and had been expanding upon it ever since), and Fox soon officially initiated the concept in 1990 with Predator 2 and the famous Xenomorph skull in the Yautja trophy room, and attempted to produce a feature film throughout the following decade until it was officially cemented together with Alien vs. Predator in 2004 and Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem in 2007, and both films undeniably existing in continuity with both the Alien and Predator films as even openly expressed by the cast and crew behind the films (the directors in particular). Noting that AVPR actually features a Space Jockey skull in the trophy room.

Then in the same vein as Marvel's Iron Man 3, the 2010 release of Predators continued on a separate storyline but still existed within the same continuity as all previous eight Alien/Predator films and even featured several references to James Cameron's Aliens from 1986 (as this film was intended to act as the Predator-equivalent to Cameron's film) and included, as the director revealed, a Xenomorph lower jaw on the Berserker Predator's mask.

The shared universe would also be further expanded upon through various home video releases (such as Alien/AVP/Predator - The Ultimate Annihilation: Nine Movie Collection), video games (notably Aliens vs. Predator from 2010, AVP: Evolution from 2013, and Aliens vs. Pinball from 2016), comic books, novels, boardgames (such as AVP: The Hunt Begins from 2015 and AVP: Unleashed from 2017), and countless other merchandise and events, so Fox clearly has no interest in dissolving the shared universe anytime soon.

Then came Ridley Scott's two prequel films Prometheus in 2012 and Alien: Covenant in 2017 and divided the fanbase further and even though they technically take place within the same universe as the previous nine films (especially when no evident contradictions exists) we don't really speak about these. Although we have to note that the Fire and Stone (2014-2015) and Life and Death (2016-2017) comic books by Dark Horse Comics actually ties together the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus brands quite explicitly and again confirms continuity, and the events covered in these comics were even acknowledged in the popular Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report (2014-2016) in the "Company Time Line" section.

Also, to address the common claim that the company histories of Charles Bishop Weyland and Sir Peter Weyland supposedly contradicy each other, I'm going to say that is absolutely false, as there are no contradictions here whatsoever. Charles Weyland formed Weyland Industries sometime around the 1960's or 1970's whereas Peter Weyland was first born on October 1, 1990, and could thus easily be the son of Charles Weyland. Peter's father was after all unnamed and described as a self-taught engineer, which fits with Charles. Interestingly enough, Peter secured a patent for a synthetic trachea on October 1, 2004, and could potentially have cured Charles of his bronchogenic carcinoma (lung cancer), shortly before Charles was declared deceased on October 10, 2004, and it would take eight years before Peter became of age and founded the new Weyland Corporation in 2012, though still keeping the old Weyland Industries intact and the name featured on the corporate website and promotional material for instance.

Peter could simply be understood as having inherited his father's assets and bringing the company back into the spotlight and towards its interstellar destiny (along with Yutani Corporation and the Predator handgun acquired by Miss Yutani from Gunnison, Colorado, in 2004 which aided in the development of such advanced technologies as FTL drives, as according to the directors). Weyland Industries is also mentioned in a Sevastolink terminal in the 2014 video game Alien: Isolation and Weyland Corporation is featured on the main meny of the 2013 video game AVP: Evolution.

However I'm certainly not the first to suggest this. Alien Theory further elaborates on this;

Further addressing another common claim that the synthetic David supposedly created the Xenomorphs in Alien: Covenant and thus setting up a supposed contradiction with the AVP films featuring Xenomorphs on Earth in 2004, this is not actually made clear in the movie itself, but it leaves such an issue up to interpretation. However, this is cleared up in the official novelization by Alan Dean Foster (who not only wrote the first three Alien novelizations but also wrote a tie-in novel to the film titled Alien: Covenant - Origins), where David elaborates and states quite clearly that he did in fact NOT create the Xenomorphs, but the Engineers (Space Jockeys) actually did, and David merely used what they had already created, including the black goo pathogen and pre-existing Ovomorphs (that is Xenomorph eggs), to create his own variants of these star beasts or "perfect organisms". Prometheus itself showed that Xenomorph-like creatures are very easily produced through the black goo, and this substance has seemingly existed for billions of years, giving more than enough time for Xenomorphs to be produced several times, and even if it were true that David was the ultimate creator of the Xenomorphs, you still could not rule out time travel (but we clearly don't need to go there).

Noting further that if the very existence of AVP/AVPR and the Predator films for that matter weren't enough to prove that David didn't create the Xenomorphs, then perhaps the home video release of Prometheus would change your mind with its inclusion of Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" which quite clearly states that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship (containing all those Ovomorphs) on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant (and it would be consistent with Captain Dallas' assessment of the Space Jockey pilot being fossilized and implied to be ancient). Even the now-defunct online MU/TH/UR 6000 interface on the Alien Universe website had classified information on such topics as Predators/Yautja.

Then of course came The Predator in 2018 and further confirmed that the shared universe indeed still remains intact, with several references to Alien vs. Predator from 2004 such as Lex's spear which the Scar Predator made out of a Xenomorph's tail, as well as references to the Alien films such as the alternate endings which were approved, produced, and filmed featuring Ripley and Newt (which would seemingly suggest time travel technology and thus set up the arrival of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 and allow for his film and Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection to exist simultaneously).

After all, Fox is sitting on a real goldmine with the shared universe (if only they could handle it better), and they may indeed still be interested in going forward with AVP3 (as even Shane Black would suggest), especially now that they won't let Scott make any more Alien films after his recent failures. Personally, I completely acknowledge the shared universe as canon (not to mention how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe), and I'm very welcoming of continuing to expand this shared franchise, especially seeing as I grew up with it and still loves it to death. Anyway, we'll see where it all goes from here on under the new rule of Disney.

« Last Edit: Feb 02, 2019, 12:13:31 PM by TurokSwe »

The Old One
Feb 01, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
Reply #41 on: Feb 01, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
No, AVP/AVPR/The EU before the reboot, is non-canon.

AVP's canon = AVP, AVPR, "The Predator" & AVP 2010.

Alien? No.

« Last Edit: Feb 01, 2019, 08:50:44 PM by The Old One »


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