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Author Topic: AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?  (Read 7762 times)

Master
Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
Reply #15 on: Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.

There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.

About AvP, I also think we'll get unrelated sequel insted of all out reboot/remake. Either space story all fans are so eager to get, or Frozen Queen (not Elza, the other one  ;) ) if the action stays on earth.


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Reply #16 on: Aug 28, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.

I don't think the use of a logo has any impacting on what determines something to be canon or non-canon. More or less, it's the story what determines that. However from what I have seen anyway.. Fox does seem to really want to get away from AvP unless they want to pander merchandise for the fans to make money off of.

There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.

Never say never. Eventually a remake or a reboot is going to happen. More than likely a reboot more than anything else. Mind you I don't see a reboot or a remake happening for the Alien franchise, but probably for the Predator or AvP franchises. I wouldn't mind stand alone movies as long as they aren't considered part of an over-arching timeline.. I find myself each day just giving up on the whole timeline thing. No one really wins with that.

As for Fox listening and knowing their fans... Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.. Ssssssss.. I'm not gonna touch that one.  :laugh:

I would say that the whole Alien-Predator universe has been unified, or at least was years ago before the Marvel Cinematic Universe as we know it came to be. Then it was.. kind of separated with PREDATORS and Prometheus. So you argue that we have three franchises and maybe three separate universes. As for Fire and Stone... Yeah that's the attitude they're trying to approach it with, even Scott Allie referenced the MCU off handedly but he also admits that is a hard reboot as far as comics are concerned. Meaning that all the other stuff as far as the old EU is concerned is finished and over with. Also, if you count what Sebela says regarding the AvP movies, that he doesn't consider the movies canon for Fire and Stone.. Kind of presents an angle here.

Either the AvP movies didn't happen as far as Prometheus and Fire and Stone are concerned, and not really canon.. or the AvP movies are their own universe which still shares links to the first two Predator movies, and the four Alien movies and is essentially a different canon altogether.

As for a potential AvP movie.. If we get an unrelated sequel, I might be content with that as long as no Engineers or Super Predators are involved. As for the Antarctic Queen.. I could see something happening with her but I'm not so sure that the oceanic water pressure would've crushed her or not. I know Aliens can survive in practically almost any environment but wouldn't the pressure at the bottom of the Antarctic crush her?


Master
Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
Reply #17 on: Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.

I don't think the use of a logo has any impacting on what determines something to be canon or non-canon. More or less, it's the story what determines that. However from what I have seen anyway.. Fox does seem to really want to get away from AvP unless they want to pander merchandise for the fans to make money off of.

That`s their whole perpous. To make money. That`s why they never admitt AvP-r was wrong f**king choice.

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There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.

Never say never. Eventually a remake or a reboot is going to happen. More than likely a reboot more than anything else. Mind you I don't see a reboot or a remake happening for the Alien franchise, but probably for the Predator or AvP franchises. I wouldn't mind stand alone movies as long as they aren't considered part of an over-arching timeline.. I find myself each day just giving up on the whole timeline thing. No one really wins with that.

You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.

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As for Fox listening and knowing their fans... Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.. Ssssssss.. I'm not gonna touch that one.  :laugh:

They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.

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I would say that the whole Alien-Predator universe has been unified, or at least was years ago before the Marvel Cinematic Universe as we know it came to be. Then it was.. kind of separated with PREDATORS and Prometheus. So you argue that we have three franchises and maybe three separate universes. As for Fire and Stone... Yeah that's the attitude they're trying to approach it with, even Scott Allie referenced the MCU off handedly but he also admits that is a hard reboot as far as comics are concerned. Meaning that all the other stuff as far as the old EU is concerned is finished and over with.

It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators  are there.
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Also, if you count what Sebela says regarding the AvP movies, that he doesn't consider the movies canon for Fire and Stone.. Kind of presents an angle here.
You know I don`t.

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Either the AvP movies didn't happen as far as Prometheus and Fire and Stone are concerned, and not really canon.. or the AvP movies are their own universe which still shares links to the first two Predator movies, and the four Alien movies and is essentially a different canon altogether.

But why? They don`t contradict each other.

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As for a potential AvP movie.. If we get an unrelated sequel, I might be content with that as long as no Engineers or Super Predators are involved. As for the Antarctic Queen.. I could see something happening with her but I'm not so sure that the oceanic water pressure would've crushed her or not. I know Aliens can survive in practically almost any environment but wouldn't the pressure at the bottom of the Antarctic crush her?

The thing is water is quite shallow out there.


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 05:10:52 PM
Reply #18 on: Aug 28, 2014, 05:10:52 PM
That`s their whole perpous. To make money. That`s why they never admitt AvP-r was wrong f**king choice.

Fair enough and true enough!

You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.

The only franchise as far as I know which doesn't have a string of continuity would be the Leprechaun franchise. Sure, the movies are considered sequels but they don't even have a connection to each other, or even the first movie. The Predator movies on the other hand, have a very thin continuity string.. And this is where canon debates come in because some view the AvP movies as being either canon or non-canon, or alternative canon. It depends on who you ask.

As for Alien, there is definitely a heavy continuity string there. Whether or not Fox wants to do an Alien movie is something up for discussion but it's clear that Weaver wants to finish the story, though with a potential delay on Prometheus 2 and no telling when Prometheus 3 is going to come out, by the time Alien 5 is in production, Weaver will be too old. Unless you're one of those folks who think Weaver isn't too old to be Ripley but if you ask me, I think the Alien franchise is done.

...And Prometheus didn't work? Last I recall, a lot of people fawned over the movie and fangasmed cause it was Ridley Scott. However I also know that part of the Alien fandom outright hates the movie. So..

They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.

This is most definitely true, I suppose. I do remember the gore hounds being the most vocal as far as AvP-R was concerned. As far as Prometheus is concerned... Maybe Ridley Scott, I can see Fox hearing fans about him but the Space Jockey? Well.. we were supposed to get a direct Alien prequel but.. we got an indirect one with Prometheus.

It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators  are there.

If Engineers and Super Predators are going to be in Alien vs Predator 3, I.. would not be very pleased. PREDATORS already made my faith in the franchise waver. I just hope Shane Black's movie doesn't further the stupid which PREDATORS brought.. I mean Shane has apparently done some good work, it's more Fred Dekker I'm iffy about since Dekker did do Robocop 3.

You know I don`t.

I figured you didn't, but I just wanted to throw that out there incase someone else wanted to chime in on that.

But why? They don`t contradict each other.

Prometheus has some contradictions with AvP. Namely of course the Weyland Corp timeline which suggests that Peter had formed Weyland Corp somewhere in the 2010s, where as AvP had suggested that Charles had founded Weyland Industries in 1973. Also, several people on this forum have pointed out that there are legal differences between an Industry and Corporation. Of course, one could make the argument that viral marketing which is written in-universe was all a part of the Fox Marketing ploy can and should be ignored, the fact that it was written in universe makes it very hard to ignore.

You could also argue that the stories of the films don't contradict each other but again it goes back to the point above. I'm not getting into a debate, but I'm just speaking from a neutral point of view and saying what others have already said.

The thing is water is quite shallow out there.

I did not know that.


Master
Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
Reply #19 on: Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM


You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.
As for Alien, there is definitely a heavy continuity string there. Whether or not Fox wants to do an Alien movie is something up for discussion but it's clear that Weaver wants to finish the story, though with a potential delay on Prometheus 2 and no telling when Prometheus 3 is going to come out, by the time Alien 5 is in production, Weaver will be too old. Unless you're one of those folks who think Weaver isn't too old to be Ripley but if you ask me, I think the Alien franchise is done.

...And Prometheus didn't work? Last I recall, a lot of people fawned over the movie and fangasmed cause it was Ridley Scott. However I also know that part of the Alien fandom outright hates the movie. So..

I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.
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They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.

This is most definitely true, I suppose. I do remember the gore hounds being the most vocal as far as AvP-R was concerned. As far as Prometheus is concerned... Maybe Ridley Scott, I can see Fox hearing fans about him but the Space Jockey? Well.. we were supposed to get a direct Alien prequel but.. we got an indirect one with Prometheus.
Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.

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It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators  are there.

If Engineers and Super Predators are going to be in Alien vs Predator 3, I.. would not be very pleased. PREDATORS already made my faith in the franchise waver. I just hope Shane Black's movie doesn't further the stupid which PREDATORS brought.. I mean Shane has apparently done some good work, it's more Fred Dekker I'm iffy about since Dekker did do Robocop 3.

Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.
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But why? They don`t contradict each other.

Prometheus has some contradictions with AvP. Namely of course the Weyland Corp timeline which suggests that Peter had formed Weyland Corp somewhere in the 2010s, where as AvP had suggested that Charles had founded Weyland Industries in 1973. Also, several people on this forum have pointed out that there are legal differences between an Industry and Corporation. Of course, one could make the argument that viral marketing which is written in-universe was all a part of the Fox Marketing ploy can and should be ignored, the fact that it was written in universe makes it very hard to ignore.

You could also argue that the stories of the films don't contradict each other but again it goes back to the point above. I'm not getting into a debate, but I'm just speaking from a neutral point of view and saying what others have already said.

There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.
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The thing is water is quite shallow out there.

I did not know that.
Something new every day, right?  ;)


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 07:17:31 PM
Reply #20 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:17:31 PM
I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.

A lot of people pointed out the similarities to AvP and Prometheus. The biggest one being the whole Ancient Aliens theme.

Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.

I think some folks were disappointed in the direction which Prometheus went with, especially with how Ridley Scott took the direction of the Engineers. There was a lot of hype and mystery regarding them, and a lot of folks were disappointed with the final result of the Engineers just being space humans.

And then of course there was the Jon Spaits script which had plenty of closer ties to Alien. I've heard some interesting things about the script. Some good, some mixed.. I haven't read the script.

Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.

If you are speaking in regards to Shane Black's movie, all I can say is I hope his ideas are something which I can agree with. PREDATORS completely changed things in ways which I disagreed with. I just hope his movie brings back sense to things. If you are speaking in regards to AvP3, I'm not going to hold my breath and I wouldn't suggest anyone to hold theirs either.

There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.

And that's your decision, and that is perfectly fine. All I was doing was pointing out what some folks out there have already said, and I acknowledge the arguments of both sides for and against the idea of AvP being in the same continuity as Prometheus. Personally, from how I see it.. or believe, is that there are three distinct separate but parallel continuities.

But again, until Fox announces what's what.. All we can do is debate and speculate.


Master
Aug 28, 2014, 07:54:19 PM
Reply #21 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:54:19 PM
I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.

A lot of people pointed out the similarities to AvP and Prometheus. The biggest one being the whole Ancient Aliens theme.
Scott looks stupid with his whole f**k off attitude towards AvP, and yet making so similar film.

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Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.

I think some folks were disappointed in the direction which Prometheus went with, especially with how Ridley Scott took the direction of the Engineers. There was a lot of hype and mystery regarding them, and a lot of folks were disappointed with the final result of the Engineers just being space humans.

And then of course there was the Jon Spaits script which had plenty of closer ties to Alien. I've heard some interesting things about the script. Some good, some mixed.. I haven't read the script.
That`s jackpot mister.That`s exactly what went wrong in Prom. So many years of speculation and mystery and in the end we`ve got some more humans... Seriously? I`m not saying the design was wrong. No it looked cool, but that`s Spece Jockey? Seriously?

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Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.

If you are speaking in regards to Shane Black's movie, all I can say is I hope his ideas are something which I can agree with. PREDATORS completely changed things in ways which I disagreed with. I just hope his movie brings back sense to things. If you are speaking in regards to AvP3, I'm not going to hold my breath and I wouldn't suggest anyone to hold theirs either.
Well that`s AvP forum  ;D

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There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.

And that's your decision, and that is perfectly fine. All I was doing was pointing out what some folks out there have already said, and I acknowledge the arguments of both sides for and against the idea of AvP being in the same continuity as Prometheus. Personally, from how I see it.. or believe, is that there are three distinct separate but parallel continuities.

But again, until Fox announces what's what.. All we can do is debate and speculate.

As always ;) God I`d love next Predator to follow P2 ending, with Adam Baldwin and such.


SM
Aug 28, 2014, 11:02:56 PM
Reply #22 on: Aug 28, 2014, 11:02:56 PM
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Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.

Positive reviews, made lots of money.

If only all many other films "didn't worked".  :laugh:


happypred
Aug 29, 2014, 02:16:55 AM
Reply #23 on: Aug 29, 2014, 02:16:55 AM
Prometheus could've easily been much better and thus done much better financially (which would lead to greater hype for a sequel). Instead, most viewers were disappointed despite generally good critical reviews.

(Rounded to the nearest million)

Prometheus:
Production Budget: 130 million
Domestic Gross: 126 million
Foreign Gross: 277 million
Worldwide Gross: 403 million
Gross Profit (Worldwide Gross - Production Budget): 273 million
Gross Profit/Production Budget: (403-130)/130=2.1

AvP Requiem:
Production Budget: commonly estimated at 40 million (maybe even lower)
Domestic Gross: 42 million
Foreign Gross: 87 million
Worldwide Gross: 129 million
Gross Profit (Worldwide Gross-Production Budget): 89 million
Gross Profit/Production Budget: (129-40)/40=2.225

Yeah...not exactly stellar. If Prometheus was a success, Requiem was a success. Prometheus' domestic gross was lower than its production budget. That's not a good sign. On top of that, I'm almost certain that Prometheus had a higher advertising cost than Requiem. On the other hand, Prometheus likely had more profitable DVD sales, though Requiem's DVD sales were by no means poor.


SiL
Aug 29, 2014, 02:42:16 AM
Reply #24 on: Aug 29, 2014, 02:42:16 AM
273 million dollars gross profit sounds pretty f**kin' stellar.


happypred
Aug 29, 2014, 02:47:09 AM
Reply #25 on: Aug 29, 2014, 02:47:09 AM
273 million dollars gross profit sounds pretty f**kin' stellar.

273 million dollars on a 130 million dollar prod budget...

89 million dollars on a 40 million dollar prod budget is similarly "stellar" (AvP Requiem)

Studios make more profit on domestic (U.S.) revenue than they do on foreign revenue. Prometheus and Requiem could both be considered domestic failures. 


SM
Aug 29, 2014, 05:06:54 AM
Reply #26 on: Aug 29, 2014, 05:06:54 AM
The majority of critics and fans, however, liked Prometheus.  AvP:R was financially successful, but critically - with critics and punters alike - it tanked.


Randomizer
Aug 29, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
Reply #27 on: Aug 29, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
 Yes , I consider it canon even if Alien 3 contradicts this .


RakaiThwei
Aug 29, 2014, 05:27:59 AM
Reply #28 on: Aug 29, 2014, 05:27:59 AM
Yes , I consider it canon even if Alien 3 contradicts this .

Why do you consider the AvP films to be canon if Alien 3 supposedly contradicts this? I'm not asking to give you a hard time, but asking out of genuine curiosity considering the general consensus here on the forum.


Randomizer
Aug 29, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
Reply #29 on: Aug 29, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
 The way I find AvP canon is that Ripley didn't knew the Aliens were already on Earth since the antiquity and she didn't knew nothing about the temple . Simple .


 

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