Prometheus 2 set for March 4th 2016

Started by Gazz, Mar 24, 2014, 10:33:49 PM

Author
Prometheus 2 set for March 4th 2016 (Read 110,106 times)

SM

SM

#315
Quote"Space Truckers" would be no more contractually obliged to investigate alien signals/life forms than would a trucker in the Mid West of the US be contractually obliged to recover specimens of snakes, poisonous flora and fungi on the way back to the depot.

But as the film clealy points out, they ARE contractually obliged.

Quote2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.

Your argument could not be more ridiculous.

QuoteBurke: "Hey Simpson - there's possibly a big find, a crashed ship, at coordinates X,Y and Z. However, it could be very dangerous, so find it, take some aerial shots and we'll make a joint claim... 50/50... But whatever you do, do not go inside. We'll leave that for the specialists once we have the rights".

Simpson: "Sounds sensible to me... I don't like taking risks".

You really need to pay more attention to the films.  Burke clearly outlines why this conversation would never have taken place.

SiL

SiL

#316
For the record, DarthVile, I still agree that leaving the Sulaco unmanned was silly.

SM

SM

#317
More or less silly than leaving a lot of money unmanned in orbit?

SiL

SiL

#318
More. Space is big and empty, so it's not likely someone's going to happen past and snatch it out of orbit. Presumably, its computers are good enough to keep it up.

And because space is big and empty and someone's not likely to happen past, sending people into a potential combat situation with no backup is purty silly.

SM

SM

#319
Ah, but they haz second magic mote contrl spaceship for teh backups

SiL

SiL

#320
Which, it turned out, was remarkably easy to make inoperable by the 'rines.

Kimarhi

In the military you don't always have backup.  I was a lone forcepro in the middle of nowhere Ethiopia where my only companion was a ?Navy Seabee who promptly went to sleep within three minutes of our arrival.  Any medevac or CAS would've had to come from another country over to get there and the rest of the forcepro was an hour and thirty minute drive away by landrover.  The only thing we had to communicate with was a satellite phone which would've made it useless to do anything but call our TOC with anyways.

The military is kind of always portrayed as being ruthlessly efficient.  It has its fill of wtf moments as well.  Leaving two guys in the middle of nowhere by themselves with no support is a wtf moment.   

I imagine traveling from system to system will be like the old naval voyages of the past.  You run into trouble you deal with it the best you can until some other naval boat picks you up.  Could be days or weeks later.  I would bet that whatever version of MOTHER the Sulaco was using would have pretty sophisticated defense systems.  If the USCMC is always operating short hand it would have to.  Otherwise there is no way to complete the mission.

Likewise we would've had to just deal with it until help came if something went down.  Personally I don't see that as a fault.  Our battalion was understrength when we deployed so we were stretched very very thin all over Africa.  If the Technical manual is to be believed then the USCMC has 200,000 Marines for the whole Galaxy.....

CainsSon

Quote from: SiL on Apr 01, 2014, 12:32:12 AM
The pilot doesn't crash his plane because he thinks nose-diving into the ground is a good way to land. The guitar player doesn't mess up because he thinks he's supposed to play a guitar with a pickaxe.

The only people missing the point are those harping on that "People are allowed to do stupid things!". Milburn's actions are stupid for anyone. No normal person is going to stick their hand in a space snake's face and say it's mesmerized when it starts hissing at them. It's compounded by the fact he's an animal biologist and should, presumably, know the least bit about animals. The cherry on top is that ten minutes earlier we saw him wetting himself and running in fear from a perfectly harmless corpse.

His actions are dumb. His actions are even dumber taking into account he's supposed to be a professional who should know better. They become moronic when the film itself establishes him as a f**kin' pansy, and then has him sticking his hand in a hissing space-cobra's face going "Cootchie cootchi coo".

If he had been presented as some kind'a Steve Irwin type, fair enough. If he'd been portrayed as someone overly sure of himself, cool. But he wasn't. The entire scene is just stupidity compounding stupidity.

If people can look past that, more power to them, but sticking fingers in ears going "La la la can't hear you it's totally not that bad" without being able to come up with a single reasonable explanation given the film doesn't make the scene any less dumb.

Where in your reading comprehension skills did you find me saying 'It WASN'T dumb?"
Didn't I specifically say, "Yes, it is dumb. But what's dumber, is thinking smart people don't do dumb things?"

I also didn't say people are allowed to do stupid things. I never even said it wasn't stupid. Im saying its silly to assume a scientist wouldn't do something stupid. It makes me think you have some crazy ideal for how scientists behave, and have never known or spoken to people who are involved in research. They are just like everybody else. They do stupid things and make silly mistakes all the time. They drop glasses down the garbage disposal. They miss the bowl when they pee because they didn't get enough coffee.
And for the record: When a guitar player effs up, or a pilot crashes a plane it is ABSOLUTELY and RESEARCHED and DOCUMENTED that they do so because they make a bunch of silly mistakes, like not eating right, not getting enough sleep that night, overlooking some minor detail, or getting distracted by a piece of ass. Even the most objective person in the world is still working against their own subjective impulses and they fail at it sooner or later.

How many people who drive cars, forget to change their oil and fluids or even get enough gas and break down? Or rush to work because they forgot to set their alarms and cause an accident? Do you suppose those people aren't good at driving? That the only people who make glaring behavioral mistakes when driving are those who don't know how to drive? If you want to stats involved, the truth is, the MORE you do something the more likely you are to make mistakes doing it.

Darth Vile

Darth Vile

#323
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
Okay, so your entire argument is "They're space truckers". That's not actually an explanation for why it's illogical.
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation. Ergo it's not a logical policy to expect untrained, unskilled employees to check out alien transmissions. I can't think of a single situation in 'real' life where people hauling cargo, transporting fuel would be expected to do such things. Whereas I CAN name several PHD's, whom I personally know, who are not gifted with common sense.

Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
They're not at all similar and that comparison is really, really thin.
"Thin" in so much as space truckers having that remit stretches belief and the fact that there are scientists who do silly things. This is about willing suspension of disbelief... and the associated tolerance levels.

Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
It was pretty obviously the latter, and it does make sense. Rerouting a ship that's already on its way and replacing the science officer is a lot less work than putting together an entire crew and dedicated ship for what might be nothing. There aren't any complicated logistics involved; crew transfers clearly aren't that uncommon, as Ripley was also put aboard the ship at the same time.
So remember the Nostromo was rerouted after Ash was put on board, not before, right? So how did the company know to put Ash onboard before the Nostromo picked up an alien transmission? And common sense tells you that (giving the film the benefit of the doubt) if they had previous Intel on alien transmissions, and had the ability/time to get Ash to a location to board the Nostromo, they'd have the ability to get, you know, a 'professional/professionals' out there? Why wouldn't they? What would they lose 48hrs??? Just to send ill equipped, unskilled people out?

Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
They can, as they're prospectors. The SE makes this clear. The planet isn't owned by anyone, the colony and AP station are. Anything found on the planet is up for grabs. The Alien universe never implies that entire planets are owned by corporations.
There's nothing in the film that states that LV426 isn't owned by the company. Weyland are an aggressive, greedy corporate organisation right? They are not terraforming for the love of it. What would be the point of having presence there if not to claim the resources etc?
Why refer to the colonists as "planet engineers", build huge atmosphere processors if it only applies to Hadley's Hope colony?

Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
What part did he leave out? "Go check this out" was all they needed to do. Burke didn't even know if there was something there.
And the point being is that there was no reason why Burke wouldn't have been cautious, or at least used his brain, because if Ripley's story were to be true, the person "checking it out" would be fecked... and he'd be back at square one. It would be a bit like hearing a noise downstairs at night, not knowing if it were an intruder, waking up your wife and asking her to get you a coke from the kitchen.

Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
The subterfuge only came in after Burke and the Marines got stranded next to a ticking nuclear bomb.
That's not accurate. The subterfuge started when he asked someone to "go check it out" knowing that it was dangerous, and continued when he didn't disclose this information to the company, Ripley or the marines. That information would have probably resulted in a different approach.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
Would've been very easy for one of the security guys to be in that scene -- just have him walk off with Fifield. Milburn being there didn't serve the story other than to kill him off.
Not really because, as it stands, Milburn and Fifields characters had both been established by that point... so it would have been difficult to just force someone else into that situation. I agree though, Scott could have established another character earlier on that wasn't Fifield or Milburn and have them encounter the Hammerpede alone... which could have led to a more scary scene. Remember, I'm not arguing against the notion that the scene could have been made more effective, I'm arguing that it has little to do with how believable Milburn is as a character.



Quote from: SM on Apr 02, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
Quote"Space Truckers" would be no more contractually obliged to investigate alien signals/life forms than would a trucker in the Mid West of the US be contractually obliged to recover specimens of snakes, poisonous flora and fungi on the way back to the depot.

But as the film clealy points out, they ARE contractually obliged.

Quote2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.

Your argument could not be more ridiculous.

QuoteBurke: "Hey Simpson - there's possibly a big find, a crashed ship, at coordinates X,Y and Z. However, it could be very dangerous, so find it, take some aerial shots and we'll make a joint claim... 50/50... But whatever you do, do not go inside. We'll leave that for the specialists once we have the rights".

Simpson: "Sounds sensible to me... I don't like taking risks".

You really need to pay more attention to the films.  Burke clearly outlines why this conversation would never have taken place.
If you are going to try and respond, at least engage the brain a little... Prometheus "clearly points out" that Milburn and Fifield get lost. It also establishes that Milburn is a biologist and is happy to try and pet an alien snake. So by your reasoning, that's a perfectly fine because the film establishes the points in question. Fine - case closed then.  ::)

SiL

SiL

#324
Quote from: CainsSon on Apr 03, 2014, 08:08:18 AM
Im saying its silly to assume a scientist wouldn't do something stupid.
It is silly. Which is why no one has ever said that.

As for the mistakes you then list people make, none of them are actually similar to what Milburn does. It's like a car driver seeing he's veering off the road and deciding this is exactly what he should be doing. The problems you list are oversights or problems with people getting complacent, none of which Milburn is shown doing. He's a firefighter looking at an inferno and saying "Oh, it's so bright and warm! I'm going to walk into it."

People are allowed to make mistakes. The problem is Milburn is only ever shown being worse at his job than somebody with no experience. This is what people call bullshit on.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.

QuoteSo remember the Nostromo was rerouted after Ash was put on board, not before, right?
I can't remember something that's not actually in the film, no. The exact time the ship was rerouted isn't explicitly stated.

QuoteAnd common sense tells you that (giving the film the benefit of the doubt) if they had previous Intel on alien transmissions, and had the ability/time to get Ash to a location to board the Nostromo, they'd have the ability to get, you know, a 'professional/professionals' out there? Why wouldn't they? What would they lose 48hrs??? Just to send ill equipped, unskilled people out?
Why are you assuming Ash wasn't already at Thedus? Clearly there are Company crew at the fueling stations and getting transferred somewhat regularly as Ripley was also transferred to the Nostromo at the same time.

QuoteThere's nothing in the film that states that LV426 isn't owned by the company.
There's nothing that says it is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.

QuoteThey are not terraforming for the love of it.
They aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.

QuoteWhat would be the point of having presence there if not to claim the resources etc?
The craploads of money they charge for their AP stations.

DoomRulz

DoomRulz

#325
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.

Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he was shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented :P

Darth Vile

Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.

That's pretty much irrelevant. Kane was already incubating the alien. We don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period. Ergo, even after quarantine, Kane would have still been brought onto the ship with aforementioned alien embryo inside. Even if they left them in the airlock (which isn't exactly the same as 'quarantine' by any stretch) Kane was still going to end up dead... possibly Dallas and Lambert too. Also, the fact that Ripley was the only one bothered about quarantine procedure and that Dallas, the captain, was not... aptly demonstrates their overall lack of capability to do the job in hand. Not that I blame them... they're just space truckers.  ;)

Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
I can't remember something that's not actually in the film, no. The exact time the ship was rerouted isn't explicitly stated.
What the film heavily alludes to/implies is that the Nostromo is rerouted whilst the crew are in hypersleep, and that the crew already consists of Ash... Otherwise when they awake, they'd either be surprised by Ash's appearance or not surprised at the Nostromo's position.

Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Why are you assuming Ash wasn't already at Thedus? Clearly there are Company crew at the fueling stations and getting transferred somewhat regularly as Ripley was also transferred to the Nostromo at the same time.
What's Thedus? The audience can't be expected to read supplementary material to work out the logic of what's in the film. The film explicitly shows us that Ash is already a member of the crew, even if only a recent addition and the question still remains... how did the company know to put Ash onboard before the alien transmission was picked up? And if they knew about the alien transmission before, why send an ill equipped ship/crew? Of course that's a rhetorical question because we both know the answer... it's simply a convenience to allow for a reveal/shock later on in the story. Once we get to the "Ash is a god damn robot" scene, we are less interested in the internal logic of it.

Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
There's nothing that says it is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.

They aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.

The craploads of money they charge for their AP stations.
I'll point you to the dialogue below... It heavily suggests that the colonists work for Weyland. Also, worth noting that the colonists wear uniforms with a 'Weyland' emblazed on them and to the "Building Better Worlds" logo which again implies some level of ownership.

VAN LEUWEN: There have been people there for over twenty years and they never complained about any hostile organism.
RIPLEY: What do you mean?  What people?
VAN LEUWEN: Terraformers, planet engineers. They go in, set up these big atmosphere processors to make the air breathable. Takes decades. It's what we call a shake 'n bake colony.

Kimarhi

Thedus is mentioned I the first movie.  You don't have to read any supplementary material to know its where they started from.  Its even implied that Ripley was newish.  This is found out contextually through the dialogue.


SiL

SiL

#328
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
That's pretty much irrelevant.
It's entirely relevant. You say it doesn't make sense because the crew have no way of dealing with these types of situation, the film clearly shows they do.

QuoteWe don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period. Ergo, even after quarantine, Kane would have still been brought onto the ship with aforementioned alien embryo inside.
That's irrelevant as you're now trying to argue the crew should have had quarantine procedures specifically to deal with something they've never encountered before.

QuoteEven if they left them in the airlock (which isn't exactly the same as 'quarantine' by any stretch) Kane was still going to end up dead... possibly Dallas and Lambert too.
The chest-burster ran from everyone the second it was born. All they would've had to do is open the outer lock and let it run off the ship. Dallas was also armed.

QuoteAlso, the fact that Ripley was the only one bothered about quarantine procedure and that Dallas, the captain, was not... aptly demonstrates their overall lack of capability to do the job in hand.
Dallas was scared and worried for the safety of his crew. Ripley was going by the book and doing what they were supposed to. There's a difference between "capable" and "willing".

QuoteWhat the film heavily alludes to/implies is that the Nostromo is rerouted whilst the crew are in hypersleep,
It really doesn't.

QuoteWhat's Thedus? The audience can't be expected to read supplementary material to work out the logic of what's in the film.
No, but they can be expected to listen to dialogue in the movie, wherein Dallas plainly states that Ash was replaced two days before they left Thedus with Ash. And that Ripley was swapped for the previous Warrant Officer.

Quotehow did the company know to put Ash onboard before the alien transmission was picked up?
They didn't, they already had the transmission.

QuoteAnd if they knew about the alien transmission before, why send an ill equipped ship/crew?
Same reason Burke did -- they didn't know what was there so they rerouted someone already going near. The Special Order just says to get a "specimen". It doesn't say of what.

QuoteAlso, worth noting that the colonists wear uniforms with a 'Weyland' emblazed on them and to the "Building Better Worlds" logo which again implies some level of ownership.
Implies they're supplying the kit and have stakes in it, yes, implies they own the planet or the entire operation, no.

QuoteVAN LEUWEN: There have been people there for over twenty years and they never complained about any hostile organism.
RIPLEY: What do you mean?  What people?
VAN LEUWEN: Terraformers, planet engineers. They go in, set up these big atmosphere processors to make the air breathable. Takes decades. It's what we call a shake 'n bake colony.
And at no point is WY mentioned.

SM

SM

#329
QuoteIf you are going to try and respond, at least engage the brain a little... Prometheus "clearly points out" that Milburn and Fifield get lost. It also establishes that Milburn is a biologist and is happy to try and pet an alien snake. So by your reasoning, that's a perfectly fine because the film establishes the points in question. Fine - case closed then.

What?

If you are going to try and make a point, at least make it vaguely coherent or at the minimum, relevant.

QuoteSo remember the Nostromo was rerouted after Ash was put on board, not before, right?

SO 937 would suggest that the Nostromo was rerouted before.  'Cos the Special Order Ash says 'Nostromo re-routed' (past tense).  It implies that someone had arranged for it to be re-routed before leaving Thedus and Ash joining the crew.

QuoteThere's nothing that says it is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.

The colony is a joint venture between the ECA and WY.  Deleted dialogue talks about WY getting an advantage with mineral rights because of the joint venture.  Any national or corporate ownership of the planet is never mentioned.

QuoteThey aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.

You've lost me here - what's the AP for if they're not terraforming?

QuoteWe don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period.

All things considered - Kane would've likely been dead before quarantine was up.

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