Modern gamers' hatred of challenging games

[DoomRulz]

They still make cheap design choices, or the design itself is shoddy. FPS games unfortunately suffer the most, the way I see it. Treyarch provides a perfect example of this, with constant grenade spamming and infinite enemy respawning in their CoD titles. The latter especially is an enormous problem with a lot of FPS titles these days.

Or, the AI is poorly balanced. Turok (2008) anyone? Either they are complete idiots and don't notice you or, they become Hawkeye at a moment's notice and cap you in the head the instant you put a lock of hair out from behind cover.

[Deathbearer]

I remember in World at War {the only CoD game I had any fun with at all} that if I stayed in one spot without advancing the enemies would never end. I picked off like 30 guys and they kept on coming. It was insanity. Less of that shit please.

[RagingDragon]

The Veteran difficulty on all MW games is just complete trash.  Instead of having smarter enemies, they give them super-human reflexes so they can blast you, as Doom said, the nanosecond you put your pinky toe out from behind the corner.  It's completely full retard, and gives a single option to the player: die until you memorize the pattern of where the idiots are.

That isn't even anywhere close to anything realistic, not that these games ever are... but it still bothers me as they try and sell themselves as some sort of ultra-realistic modern shooter.

You can easily tell this by playing multiplayer for even an hour.  The best players are lightning-fast and excellent shots, and the CoD system allows this, but even they can't shoot like the damned AI enemies.  It's just insane.

Watch some of the Veteran playthroughs on Youtube, and you'll see how frustrating the campaign can be even for the best players.

[chupacabras acheronsis]

good AI is something you just won't find on any off the shelf shooters anymore because they screw with the carefully planned experience they invest on. especially big titles that focus on being big first, good second, they're all about delivering a big ride, a streamlined, universal experience. everyone gets to feel badass for doing the same. it's the only reason they even get so popular, do you think half the people who play these shooters had even played any other kind of shooter before? they wouldn't understand how much they can do when you take off the training wheels.

and just because it says warfare doesn't mean it HAS warfare, keep that in mind.

[ShadowPred]

Dear god, I'm playing AvP for the 360, and I swear, all the f**king hand holding has never been so f**king annoying before. I can't even move two inches without the game giving me a ton text telling me where to go, where to jump, what to do, it's f**king ridiculous.

It really is the worst I've seen in all of gaming, I can't believe it's holding my hand this f**king much.

[RagingDragon]

good AI is something you just won't find on any off the shelf shooters anymore because they screw with the carefully planned experience they invest on. especially big titles that focus on being big first, good second, they're all about delivering a big ride, a streamlined, universal experience. everyone gets to feel badass for doing the same. it's the only reason they even get so popular, do you think half the people who play these shooters had even played any other kind of shooter before? they wouldn't understand how much they can do when you take off the training wheels.

and just because it says warfare doesn't mean it HAS warfare, keep that in mind.

Well said, as usual.

ShadowPred, AvP 2010, at least I think, was a decent game.  Its biggest problem was that it played like a great game from 2001, not 2010.  It was just too little, and too much on-rails, linear pre-scripted Alien dumbness to be very exciting.

The multiplayer, jus fuggadaboudit.

[ShadowPred]

good AI is something you just won't find on any off the shelf shooters anymore because they screw with the carefully planned experience they invest on. especially big titles that focus on being big first, good second, they're all about delivering a big ride, a streamlined, universal experience. everyone gets to feel badass for doing the same. it's the only reason they even get so popular, do you think half the people who play these shooters had even played any other kind of shooter before? they wouldn't understand how much they can do when you take off the training wheels.

and just because it says warfare doesn't mean it HAS warfare, keep that in mind.

Well said, as usual.

ShadowPred, AvP 2010, at least I think, was a decent game.  Its biggest problem was that it played like a great game from 2001, not 2010.  It was just too little, and too much on-rails, linear pre-scripted Alien dumbness to be very exciting.

The multiplayer, jus fuggadaboudit.

Well I haven't played through the whole thing. The music is really nice, and adds to the experience, so far that's the only good thing I can say about it at the moment.

[DUB1]

How do the people who played F-Zero GX here feel about it's difficulty? Is it reasonable, or would you say it's the "f**k you" hard I heard about? It's definitely one of the most challenging games I've ever played. F-Zero X is pretty hard too.

I do not believe any games are impossible to beat, but if there was something close to it, to me it's winning as the Raptor in Turok 3: Shadow of Oblivion's multiplayer against bots. Seriously, you have to try it yourself to believe it. The one AI-controlled opponent I've managed to beat as it was the Raptor itself. And it's always an intense fight. I love it!

The PSX version of Mortal Kombat Trilogy also deserves a mention.

[DoomRulz]

good AI is something you just won't find on any off the shelf shooters anymore because they screw with the carefully planned experience they invest on. especially big titles that focus on being big first, good second, they're all about delivering a big ride, a streamlined, universal experience. everyone gets to feel badass for doing the same. it's the only reason they even get so popular, do you think half the people who play these shooters had even played any other kind of shooter before? they wouldn't understand how much they can do when you take off the training wheels.

and just because it says warfare doesn't mean it HAS warfare, keep that in mind.

Well this is the problem. It's a shortcut to making something shoddy. Developers aren't putting in the needed time and effort to make the AI really solid. There are exceptions of course. I feel that the AI in Crytek games is always top notch and I haven't had any real reason to complain about them.

good AI is something you just won't find on any off the shelf shooters anymore because they screw with the carefully planned experience they invest on. especially big titles that focus on being big first, good second, they're all about delivering a big ride, a streamlined, universal experience. everyone gets to feel badass for doing the same. it's the only reason they even get so popular, do you think half the people who play these shooters had even played any other kind of shooter before? they wouldn't understand how much they can do when you take off the training wheels.

and just because it says warfare doesn't mean it HAS warfare, keep that in mind.

Well said, as usual.

ShadowPred, AvP 2010, at least I think, was a decent game.  Its biggest problem was that it played like a great game from 2001, not 2010.  It was just too little, and too much on-rails, linear pre-scripted Alien dumbness to be very exciting.

The multiplayer, jus fuggadaboudit.

AvP's multiplayer is awesome. It's a shame few people play anymore. I blame the poor singleplayer campaign for driving people away.

[ShadowPred]

I honestly can't get over the fact as to how SHIT the AI is in AvP. Not like I'm not having a bit of fun, but it annoys me to see a marine shoot at me in a room full of other marines, yet when I kill said marine, the others don't even take notice, even after the guy I killed FIRED at me.

[chupacabras acheronsis]

Well this is the problem. It's a shortcut to making something shoddy. Developers aren't putting in the needed time and effort to make the AI really solid. There are exceptions of course. I feel that the AI in Crytek games is always top notch and I haven't had any real reason to complain about them.

which brings us to the initial point of the thread.

you can't have a game with AI that can be truly challenging BECAUSE the experience wouldn't be the same for most people, you would have to design games with dynamic, spontaneous situations and levels for the player to solve and invest on, which would alienate casual, can't-play-more-than-an-hour-a-day(yet-i-still-want-to-play-games) players, which are the biggest money makers. and that's just the AI.

the truth is, games aren't made for gamers anymore. they are made for people who want to think they are gamers, because being a gamer is cool and hip now. if you actually have some time playing, if you have the most basic experience and know what videogames can do in terms of design, gameplay, scale, artistic merit, and sheer technological ingenuity, you'd know just why do people bitch so endlessly. the economic model of the yearly blockbuster that dominates the market is killing everything good about videogames, while the companies behind them lay the grounds for the most abominably abusive and corrupt consumer practices seen since the last century while hordes of deluded fanboys and bought off press defend them.

and they get away with it, because in the end, they still get your money.

[RagingDragon]

I dunno chupa, I partially disagree.  I think your comments apply more to films these days.  The average gamer is still a very savvy dude (or chick) albeit their inevitable level of social introversion.   Gamers constantly push the industry forward and are great at virtually throwing feedback at the developers, in many forms.  In fact, they seem to be the most vocal customer base of many different commercial products.

They're also good at nit-picking the hell out of their products, deconstructing them, modding, etc...  This is a phenomenon altogether unique in gaming...

I mean you have your generations of gamers, and the younger kids always want the hyped up shit, that's a focus for an army of marketing firms, but you still have a lot of art in gaming and a lot of room for unique expression and risk-taking.

You may be right, but it seems like your thoughts are ahead of the curve.  Modern Warfare is one of the first games to really break into true Hollywood-esque territory, with multi-million dollar budgets and big, big business at its core.

Kind of makes me sick thinking about it.

[chupacabras acheronsis]

oh, i wish you were right, but games right now are bigger than movies as a whole, and they commit the same sins.

and gamers might be loud but they are a pretty worthless bunch when it comes to standing up to bully companies, in movies you at least have a chance of the thing flopping so hard the studio takes a hit. not with games. gamers will grind their teeth and still take it, just because each is after something specific that in the end they will still get, and then bend over backwards to make up excuses to why the inferior product is still good on it's own rights, then go "i hope they learn from their mistakes" or "i'm sure the next one will be better" because they are spineless and prefer to be abused to living without videogames. and then they will shake their fist at piracy or whatever to explain why developers no longer make games more special.

there's also those who have absolutely no standards and will blindly buy anything, you know, the ones that are 100% oblivious to what's happening from the announcement all the way to the release day.

and rabid fanbases that aggressively attack any kind of criticism do exist, unfortunately. the SWTOR the most grotesque example. Bioware "biodrones" too. just go asking around, horror stories abound.

[RagingDragon]

Squawk loudly, do nothing.  I hear that, and it's pretty sad to see with how much clout the gaming community really pulls off these days.  Unlike cinema, however, games have clawed up from the petty childhood pastime to finally be taken seriously as some form of storytelling or adult medium, but film has always had the theater atmosphere.

Perhaps the transparency (?) of certain companies and the ability to mod games gives the gaming community more of a reason to tolerate shoddy products, as if an SDK is released, they can just mod the hell out of it until they get what they want anyway.

[DoomRulz]

I stopped buying CoD games for precisely the reason that I felt the developing companies aren't innovating. If I do buy a CoD title, like when I bought MW2, it was from a private retailer so Infinity Ward never saw one red cent of what I spent. As well, because I was so disappointed with the construction of the enemy AI in C&C 3, I chose not to buy C&C 4 because I didn't trust that EA had improved on it.

In regards to tolerating bad decision choices, I'd say that's a pretty huge gamble a gamer takes when buying a console game more so than a PC game because like RagingDragon said, modders can improve on the original concept and produce something much better. With console games, what you see is what you get unfortunately.