WAIT - Doesn't Sigourney want back in?

Started by Pvt. Hicks, May 30, 2009, 07:12:51 PM

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WAIT - Doesn't Sigourney want back in? (Read 12,791 times)

Neon_Knight

Neon_Knight

#30
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jun 06, 2009, 07:39:26 PM
Quote from: Neon_Knight on May 31, 2009, 08:37:51 PM
Enough with Ripley, can't we have a male protagonist, for once, just for once?

One of the mainstays of the 'Alien' series (when done properly, anyway) is the psychosexual subtext. You wouldn't get that with a bloke being the lead.

Plus, the sight of a female in obvious trouble, on screen, brings out the psychological impulse, in a viewer, of protection. It's an easy way to get the audience more emotionally involved.

Yes, I know, it worked in Alien, and Aliens, and even Alien3 and Alien Resurrection, but really, it's starting to wear a bit thin now.  I for one am sick of it.  

I mean it's just cheap really, re-using old ideas to try to fudge together a film that people will think is good.  It's a cliché in the film industry, one successful film is successful due to some traits going against expectation etc, and then all of the sequels/spinoffs/most other films in the genre just flat out copy the exact same idea, as though somehow the audience will be 'tricked' into thinking that it's something new and original when it simply isn't.

The very fact that they're looking for a "new Ripley", (ie a female character that's going to have the exact same role and exact same presence on screen as Ripley) is almost proof enough for me that they're just trying to cheaply bundle together a film, ripping off the success of the originals in the franchise.  It's cheap, it's lazy, and it's disgraceful script-writing.  And it's almost certain that they aren't going to come up with a particularly complex character for this "new Ripley", she's going to have lazy, uninspiring character development, and I'm willing to bet this new film will stink of mediocrity.    The very idea of reusing the exact same character, again, just with a new name is simply appalling, especially considering Ridley Scott is involved.

Even Aliens changed Ripley's character somewhat during the transition - in Alien, she was a fairly scared, not particularly physical, not particularly authoritative figure, not even the other crew members recognised her authority when Dallas was off the ship. Dallas didn't listen to her about destroying the facehugger, Lambert was hysterically against Ripley and her ideas after Dallas had died, Ash tried to kill her and she pretty much helpless during that struggle and she had absolutely no physical contact with the Alien.     
In Aliens, she was a much more hardened figure, where Ripley's stereotype character came into play, with her protective mother-like figure, and bitter, aggressive resentment of the aliens that took away her relationship with her own daughter.  (The Queen/Loader fight scene comes to mind)
But there's only so many times you can develop a single character role, and I really think the Ripley character is a dead horse that's been flogged into a mashed up, bloody pulp.

SiL

SiL

#31
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jun 06, 2009, 07:39:26 PM
One of the mainstays of the 'Alien' series (when done properly, anyway) is the psychosexual subtext. You wouldn't get that with a bloke being the lead.
Cos watching a guy being raped and then give birth through his chest cavity has nooo psychosexual undertones at all ???

Xenomorphine

Every 'hero' character basically has to go through the same development. Ripley was never the first! They have to get beaten down, undergo a 'purging' and then come back at the object of their torment and beat it. They are then stronger/wiser for it.

Quote from: SiL on Jun 08, 2009, 12:16:22 AM
Cos watching a guy being raped and then give birth through his chest cavity has nooo psychosexual undertones at all ???

Some, but you know that if we saw what happened to Lambert, happening to Parker, instead, the psychological impact and iconic nature of that scene, would not have been in the same league. :)

SiL

SiL

#33
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jun 08, 2009, 12:33:05 AM
Some, but you know that if we saw what happened to Lambert, happening to Parker, instead, the psychological impact and iconic nature of that scene, would not have been in the same league. :)
True, but if it'd happened to both, it would've been even more effective.

And just "some"? Give the filmmakers some credit! Chest-bursting a woman's just a perversion of a natural process - That's why Kane was a guy. Guy gets raped, guy gives hideous birth? That hits the grey matter more.

The Chibi Kiriyama

The Chibi Kiriyama

#34
I think sexual orientation could be played around with in a future film, but I don't know how well it could be done. Girl-on-girl "action" is fine with males in an audience, but if you had a bisexual or homosexual male protagonist, it would take a lot of work to make that feel non-exploitive and avoid making it the sole character definition he has. The same goes for a bisexual or lesbian protagonist, but I've always felt the truth is audiences are more accepting (and almost entertained) by that sort of thing.

The whole thing's a hard undertaking, enough that it may be best to do what Ridley did and omit direct references to orientation entirely past some trivia on the early attempt. But, again, I'm not against it. The first Alien film was memorable because it turned many preconceptions about power dynamics, gender interactions, and even the idea of body horror up to that point on their head. We need more of that, not less. That's where most of these sequels have gone wrong- they're more interested in the creatures as oddities and violent boogeymen than in what the creatures represent in the literal and metaphorical context of the story.

Übermensch

Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Halloween already had the girl who ends up as the last survivor, just that Ripley was made a lot tougher and more proactive in dealing with the threat.

TJ Doc

I always liked how they gave Tom Skerritt top billing for Alien... but then killed him off mid-way through the film, paving the way for Ripley to take charge from then on.

That must have surprised audiences at the time.

A_Sexual_Tyrannosaurus

Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 30, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
Quote from: Pvt. Hicks on May 30, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
Where is she going to be in all this? Doesn't she want back in? Why can't they do something after Alien: Resurrection? Weaver wanted to re-team with Scott, but he's involved and she's not, that's not fair.

We have no idea whether or not she'll be involved behind the scenes.

Quote from: Karl on May 30, 2009, 07:15:24 PM
I'll say it now - if there's no Sigourney then it's not Alien. That's how I see it anyway.

It doesn't need her and Ripley's story has been concluded. I'm one of those who wouldn't mind 'Alien 3' being turned into a dream, but you'll find the fandom mostly split on that.

I'm with you on the whole "Alien 3 and 4 were just dreams" but besides, yes I agree that a good Alien film CAN be made without Ripley...

SpreadEagleBeagle

Quote from: A_Sexual_Tyrannosaurus on Jun 11, 2009, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 30, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
Quote from: Pvt. Hicks on May 30, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
Where is she going to be in all this? Doesn't she want back in? Why can't they do something after Alien: Resurrection? Weaver wanted to re-team with Scott, but he's involved and she's not, that's not fair.

We have no idea whether or not she'll be involved behind the scenes.

Quote from: Karl on May 30, 2009, 07:15:24 PM
I'll say it now - if there's no Sigourney then it's not Alien. That's how I see it anyway.

It doesn't need her and Ripley's story has been concluded. I'm one of those who wouldn't mind 'Alien 3' being turned into a dream, but you'll find the fandom mostly split on that.

I'm with you on the whole "Alien 3 and 4 were just dreams" but besides, yes I agree that a good Alien film CAN be made without Ripley...

Alien 3 Being a dream? No thank you! That movie felt way more real than Aliens ever did - ignoring Alien 3 is like ignoring The Return of the King from the LOTR saga... or taking away the Red Movie from Red/White/Blue. Don't go there! Alien 3 was the perfect ending, and it should've stayed that way. Ripley checked out the perfect way and the Alien Trilogy felt completed, going full circle. But then they just had too make a fourth one, and Ripley just had to be in it...

I kind of like A:R as a standalone movie since I like Jeunet, but it totally screwed up the possibilities of making a un-contrived decent sequel. Jeunet's style was too vibrant and colorful for the bleak Alien universe and Whedon's characters were too cartoony... If anything was a dream then A:R was it.

I mean, to me the natural way to make a sequel to Alien 3 would have been the USCM (or whatever) sending people to the Sulaco and LV426 to investigate what happened to the marines & colonists and the atmosphere processors. Some of the marines show up to be spies working for W&Y, and their mission is to cover up the tracks of company. Sure, this story idea is extremely unoriginal but its simplicity offers a lot of options.

It pains me to say this, but as much as I like Ripley, I really would have preferred the fourth movie without her in it.

FearPeteySodes

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jun 11, 2009, 08:01:36 PM
Alien 3 Being a dream? No thank you! That movie felt way more real than Aliens ever did - ignoring Alien 3 is like ignoring The Return of the King from the LOTR saga... or taking away the Red Movie from Red/White/Blue. Don't go there! Alien 3 was the perfect ending, and it should've stayed that way. Ripley checked out the perfect way and the Alien Trilogy felt completed, going full circle. But then they just had too make a fourth one, and Ripley just had to be in it...

I kind of like A:R as a standalone movie since I like Jeunet, but it totally screwed up the possibilities of making a un-contrived decent sequel. Jeunet's style was too vibrant and colorful for the bleak Alien universe and Whedon's characters were too cartoony... If anything was a dream then A:R was it.

I mean, to me the natural way to make a sequel to Alien 3 would have been the USCM (or whatever) sending people to the Sulaco and LV426 to investigate what happened to the marines & colonists and the atmosphere processors. Some of the marines show up to be spies working for W&Y, and their mission is to cover up the tracks of company. Sure, this story idea is extremely unoriginal but its simplicity offers a lot of options.

It pains me to say this, but as much as I like Ripley, I really would have preferred the fourth movie without her in it.

I very much agree, and would prefer a different Ripley-less sequel without slapping 3 in the face.

SM

SM

#40
QuoteThat movie felt way more real than Aliens ever did - ignoring Alien 3 is like ignoring The Return of the King from the LOTR saga... or taking away the Red Movie from Red/White/Blue. Don't go there!

Or ignoring Back In Training from the Police Academy films.


QuoteIf anything was a dream then A:R was it.

Broad hint in Johner's line "Sleep when you're dead".   oooooooOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEoooooooo

Alien³

Quote from: A_Sexual_Tyrannosaurus on Jun 11, 2009, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 30, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
Quote from: Pvt. Hicks on May 30, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
Where is she going to be in all this? Doesn't she want back in? Why can't they do something after Alien: Resurrection? Weaver wanted to re-team with Scott, but he's involved and she's not, that's not fair.

We have no idea whether or not she'll be involved behind the scenes.

Quote from: Karl on May 30, 2009, 07:15:24 PM
I'll say it now - if there's no Sigourney then it's not Alien. That's how I see it anyway.

It doesn't need her and Ripley's story has been concluded. I'm one of those who wouldn't mind 'Alien 3' being turned into a dream, but you'll find the fandom mostly split on that.

I'm with you on the whole "Alien 3 and 4 were just dreams" but besides, yes I agree that a good Alien film CAN be made without Ripley...

Dream on people, (excuse the pun) Alien 3 is a reality and it's the most atmospheric and beautiful picture of the trilogy. It's look and tone are incredible, the acting is top notch and it's a respectable end to Ripley's story.

SM

SM

#42
Quoteand it's the most atmospheric and beautiful picture of the trilogy

Except for the original.

Aeus

Quote from: SM on Jun 15, 2009, 11:28:19 PM
Quoteand it's the most atmospheric and beautiful picture of the trilogy

Except for the original.

Word.

Nachtfalke

Nachtfalke

#44
Uh, we don't need Siggy. Seriously, especially in a prequel.
The characters can exist on their own. If Ripley is in the prequel, I'll wait until its a free rental.
You can't always use her as a crutch.

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