Poll: AvP vs AvPR

[NeoXenoPred]

The fundamental -- and unsolvable -- problem any AvP film faces is to conciliate the horror atmosphere of the Alien films with the flamboyant action-horror of the Predator films; and the very idea of a story whose entire foundation is to pit two popular horror characters against each other severely demeans both, i.e. it is far too pulp to take them seriously anymore.

With that in mind, any AvP has to be seen as separate to either Alien/Predator series. So when you see the first AvP as that -- on its own -- it gains a lot, it's an entertaining homage that echoes both film series and pulpifies the characters, making them into exaggerated comic book versions of them: bigger talons, bigger f**kin queen, bigger weapons and blades, you name it. And while not flawless it's solid, imho, only needed some refinements script-wise. Photography, score, effects are all excellent and the casting is alright, with a Henriksen shining tip.


AvPR on the other hand fails as a sequel to its predecessor and fails as a film. It's a pastiche of "what cool things could the Predator do?" and generic horror clichés. SiL put it best actually:

every single thing about AvPR screams 14 year old COD players dreaming up the coolest, most "hardcore" horror film they can, rather than something that makes any sense or actually has any impact. People are introduced just so something awful can happen to them two minutes later. It's not scary, it's not tense, and it's shit even by slasher movie standards. AvP's not scary or tense either, but at least it's not trying to lie to you about being an adult movie.

I'm agree with you. It's kinda hard for these two become merged. Action oriented Predator and Horror oriented Alien was making it hard to merge it perfectly. People also don't want to see the same variation/mask over and over again, so people wanted to see some "new" things like Crocodile Alien(kinda awesome) or The White King(which is horrible).

[The Cruentus]

Aliens is a good example of horror and action merging, though it wasn't as scary as the first film, it was very suspensful. Of course, a good script and 3d characters is a must, Requiem had neither, its not even a horror as its basically a slasher, a bad one at that.

[Russ]

The fundamental -- and unsolvable -- problem any AvP film faces is to conciliate the horror atmosphere of the Alien films with the flamboyant action-horror of the Predator films; and the very idea of a story whose entire foundation is to pit two popular horror characters against each other severely demeans both, i.e. it is far too pulp to take them seriously anymore.

I'm not so sure this is unsolvable. The Predators have been humanised through the various mediums  - even the lauded comic book (the one with the corporate Japanese girl who teams up with Broken Tusk?)... through the Anderson movie and then making Wolf a co-star in AvP:R. Even in "Predators" - we wanted "our" original predator to take out the bigger ones.

I was talking about this post last night with my nephew (we were pissed so I don't consider it to be that tragic a conversation) - the thing with the predators is that you have to de-humanise them. Like the baddies in War of the Worlds or (dare I say) Independence Day. Make them entirely unrelateable to humans aside from the obvious two arms and legs.

Human life should mean literally nothing to them. They should be entirely cruel - they get their kicks by hunting, torturing and killing things. Intelligent things. In a way, they could be portrayed as even more monstrous than the xenos. After all, they don't f**k each over or a percentage nor do they kill things for fun.

I guess that goes against established "lore" which likes to portray them as stoic and honourable and all that stuff, but if you're talking about a reboot, maybe you need to redefine the predators to make it work.

I imagine a Vietnam War vs Horror Movie for this sort of thing (but as I've said before, someone on here had a great idea about soldiers guarding a prison and the monsters turn up forcing cons and soldiers to work together), but something like that I think could really work. Man vs Nature in the weird alien jungle, Man vs Xenos, Predator vs Xenos, Man vs Predators...

But as I say, the secret as I see it is to make the predators even more horrid than the xenos who after all are only animals at the end of the day. Predator shouldn't be seen as heroes - they're bastards and we should be cheering each time a xeno or marine takes one out.

I'm reminded of a scene in the BattleStar Galactica reboot - remember how we loved our old red eye Cylons and all the fans were demanding to see the "older models." It was genius - they had "our" Cylons performing vivisection on live, screaming human men, women and children - entirely emotionless yet (artificially) intelligent beings performing a task. The screaming... the suffering means nothing to them.

That was pretty horrific. Apply that to the predators - I'd say you're on you way to a horror movie. With some action of course.,

[SM]

Wolf wasn't really a co-star in AvP:R and human life did mean nothing to him.  He (bizarrely) took time out to skin Ray and string him up, and he hung Dallas up to be bait.

[OmegaZilla]

I don't think humanisation of the Predator(s) has much to do with the tone of it. You inevitably are going for something pulp when you pit two horror characters against each other as the pitch for your story. It's just not going to be anything else.

[The Cruentus]

Wolf wasn't really a co-star in AvP:R and human life did mean nothing to him.  He (bizarrely) took time out to skin Ray and string him up, and he hung Dallas up to be bait.

And shot that guy in the graveyard for no reason, the guy didn't even know Wolf was there so he was hardly a threat.

[SM]

He had a gun.

[Russ]

I don't think humanisation of the Predator(s) has much to do with the tone of it. You inevitably are going for something pulp when you pit two horror characters against each other as the pitch for your story. It's just not going to be anything else.

I don't know - the "vs" concept is a tough one, but I think that it could work and not be pulpy if the story was done in the right way. If only I knew what way that was *lol*

In some respects, the humans caught in the middle ought to be incidental to the hunt (as they were in AvP), but perhaps the tale should be more about them trying to survive than the showpiece pitting the predators against the Xeno Queen (which, incidentally, is a good name for a band).

I still maintain that BSG Cylon bit could really be applied to the predators (not literally, but the whole idea of life meaning literally nothing to them). I hear what SM says about Wolf, but ... well... that was AvP:R. I'm surprised Wolf didn't arse-rape one of the homeless people and set fire to their hair or whatever "let's make it really sick" stuff the Bros came up with.

In the first Predator - the Predator really was "the enemy." He didn't do anything for laughs (like in 2 where he runs through the old girls apartment, the reprise of the ugly mo-fo line etc etc) and he was really horrid. They did the same in Predators to be fair, but as I say above - we had "our" predator in that one and we wanted him to win. So we identified with him.

I dunno - maybe I'm on a losing wicket. I would love to see a refreshed version of the AvP concept that takes the horror more seriously (not in Strausse Bros way).

But I'm not saying that its easy... perhaps you're right, Omega - maybe it will always be pulpy and comic-booky. I can see individual scenes in  my mind's eye that says that isn't the case, but I can't come up with a solid concept (mind you, i'm a little hungover this morning...)

[The Cruentus]

He had a gun.

Still not a threat and not a good reason. Wolf is supposed to be on a clean up, not a hunt.

[SM]

Already shot to pieces by skinning Ray.

Wolf is a bit dumb all things considered.

[The Cruentus]

Indeed.

No argument there, how he even lived so long to become a "veteran cleaner" is surprising after seeing how incompetent he is.

Wolf is not exactly mature for an elder either, gets wounded once in a situation where being wounded is guaranteered at least and he throws a temper tantrum and causes a blackout in the town by once again misuing his plasma casters, further aiding the Xenomorphs.

[NeoXenoPred]

Yes, Wolf just seemed to be incompetent like skinning a man who didn't pose a threat and caused a blackout. If he a veteran cleaner he might hide himself better and not spam his plasma-caster, as it was the one who caused the blackout.

[SM]

Rey was a threat.  He was armed and was running off to warn others about what he saw - which was the Predator trying to cover its tracks.  Wolf was trying to do all his job without attracting attention, to do that he had to deal with Ray.

Which made skinning him, instead making it look like an accident, monumentally stupid.  And it got stupider the longer it went.

[SiL]

The PredAlien skinned him originally.

... I wish that wasn't a real sentence.

[SM]

How did it do it?  Genetically inherited wrist blades that pop-out like Wolverine?