I have noticed that there have been a more than a few issues dealing with the canon dealing with Predator, AvP, and the Aliens saga. Although some people are open to new ideas, I have noticed that some of the fanbase has been saying no to alot of things.
I have noticed that some people have had an issue with the AvP movie taking in some characteristics of the movie and novels which Perry wrote (the comics came before, I know) namely the blooding and rite of passage issue which some people have. The whole honor thing which was introduced in Predator 2, some people choose to ignore flat out as if it were some bane.
Also, concerning possible ideas which would open new doors and make horizons broader for the AvP franchise, many fans still say no. Some people have had issues with females being shown in the possible (but doubtful) Predator 3 movie. Also AGAIN with the blooding and rank issues have, people STILL argue and debate about the Yautja being Unbloodeds in P1 (P2 is a different story).
Also the whole idea of a PredAlien Queen seems to be something new to explore. Why do I see fans fearing and saying no to the idea? Is it because of Ressurrection's Newborn Alien?
I'm NOT flaming anyone here, or saying anyone is wrong... But I want to ask...
Why is the fandom afraid to see hybrids and Perry's Yautja aspects taken in film?
Also there has been some controversy regaurding AvP to be canon with the Predator franchise and the Alien franchise... again, why can't fans accept this?
-Rakai'Thwei
I think fans have trouble accepting comic/ novel concepts due to the inconsistency of these concepts. Perry went down one road; this road has been ignored by the current publishing team.
Also even before this, some people reject ideas simply because they don't like them.
In Alien it's easier to ignore the AvP film because of perceived continuity issues and the comics because of proven continuity issues.
Quote from: SM on Mar 26, 2007, 03:50:38 AM
I think fans have trouble accepting comic/ novel concepts due to the inconsistency of these concepts. Perry went down one road; this road has been ignored by the current publishing team.
I can understand that since Shirely had literally changed the base of what Perry had put down (to my dismay, Hish'Que-Ten are now on Wikipedia). Personally, I do not like the Hish-- they seem so far fetched and different from the Yautja in a very bad way, whom in my opinion are believable and are the TRUE Predators. Also, I believe that Yautja
ARE canon since Paul Anderson had taken the aspects (or at least some) from the comics and maybe the novels.
Also, I have noticed that some of the fans have a strong predjuidice towards AvP because simply Anderson made it. I believe that AvP is canon with the Predator and Alien franchise...
Still questions of mine have not been answered.
-Rakai'Thwei
I don't think it's anything to do with Anderson, personally. I've read a lot of people saying they like Event Horizon, Mortal Kombat and Resident Evil. He's become a target since the shoddiness of AvP, but beforehand, he had a fairly competent CV for this sort of thing. I still love EH in spite of AvP.
I have nothing against hybrids. I liked the Ripley clones, I liked the Queen giving birth, I liked the Newborn and I liked the Predalien. But I would not like a Predalien Queen. Maybe I've been playing AvP Extinction too much but I'm hostile to the idea of the Queen naturally borrowing DNA from its host. I think it would permanently dilute the species.
I like the Yautja and see nothing wrong with giving the Predators some character. However, I think the ideal Predators (like the ones in the movies) would not be the Yautja or the Hish but a combination of both. The Yautja are too honorable and the Hish are not honorable enough. I haven't read the AvP novels and I would only consider them canon if they didn't contradict the movie.
Wikipedia is supposed to be a completely unbiased resource so it should have descriptions for Yautja and Hish.
I agree with you that it's sad that some AvP fans won't accept anything new. Some of them probably with wish the Alien franchise died after Aliens and the Predator franchise died after Predator 2.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 03:34:07 AM
Also the whole idea of a PredAlien Queen seems to be something new to explore. Why do I see fans fearing and saying no to the idea? Is it because of Ressurrection's Newborn Alien?
Because it's not required. It wouldn't be any different than a regular Queen.
QuoteWhy is the fandom afraid to see hybrids and Perry's Yautja aspects taken in film?
Because comics/books aren't canon and conflict with what's already established in the movies.
QuoteAlso there has been some controversy regaurding AvP to be canon with the Predator franchise and the Alien franchise... again, why can't fans accept this?
Because of the countless continuity errors that were made. Maybe it's that AvP drifted too far away from the originals.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 04:08:31 AM
Also, I have noticed that some of the fans have a strong predjuidice towards AvP because simply Anderson made it. I believe that AvP is canon with the Predator and Alien franchise...
A lot of people felt like that before AvP was released. A lot of people hated Paul Anderson before AvP and he's hated a lot more now because of AvP. I had seen most of his films before AvP came out. I thought they were okay so I didn't have a preference with him.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 03:34:07 AM
The whole honor thing which was introduced in Predator 2, some people choose to ignore flat out as if it were some bane.
I haven't seen one person who ignored that what has been presented in Predator 2. It's the "Yautja" (what a stupid name) type of honor that we ignore.
QuoteSome people have had issues with females being shown in the possible (but doubtful) Predator 3 movie.
Too much, too much and too much. * How about exploring the Predators' sexuality? The way they mate? Yeaaah, let's bring those burly Pred mommas from the comics to the bigs screen! Let us see them tossing the male Pred around while mating! The male Pred will still remain the ultimate bad ass anyway! (NOT!) Or, how about Predator society being presented in Predator3? Let's see two Predators making their spaceships while one would be telling the other one (in "Yautja" language of course!) "Hey buddy that's not the right wrench!" **...
Sarcasm aside, my point is that if you reveal too much and take away the mystery, what will you have left? I would pick the mysterious Pred from P1, or the belligerent and fascinating hunter from P2 anyday.
QuoteAlso AGAIN with the blooding and rank issues have, people STILL argue and debate about the Yautja being Unbloodeds in P1 (P2 is a different story).
Predator, not "Yautja".
QuoteWhy is the fandom afraid to see hybrids...?
I for one ain't. It would be quite interesting to see a Predator hunt down a predalien.
Quote...and Perry's Yautja aspects taken in film?
* Aspects? To hell with those! Let's see a whole Yautjan story: "Yautja comes to earth to battle the great samurai. Yautja somehow looses and samurai becomes immortal as he eats Pred... sorry, Yautja flesh!" (Hey, the Yautja HAS to loose, that's Hollywood!) **
Sarcasm aside (again), some people just do not like the whole "Yautja" concept. Why not remain with the original? Why change it? You can still bring something new without making such radical and contradicting changes. + The whole "Yautja" thing would only be new on the BIG SCREEN, they're already in the comics. I don't want "Yautjas", I want Predators.
(I hope that what I have written will not offend you in any way.)
Quote from: Dekapitator on Mar 26, 2007, 04:46:01 PM
(I hope that what I have written will not offend you in any way.)
Actually, you kinda did-- since I do consider Yautja to be canon weither people like it or not... and sarcasm I did not appriciate either. However, I will let this go since I don't want any drama here. Your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it...
I am now encouraged to write an essay on how unstable the fandom is (no offense to fellow fans) because of how many arguments ensue between fans.
-Rakai'Thwei
QuoteActually, you kinda did-- since I do consider Yautja to be canon weither people like it or not...
But how is it? It's never been said in any film and I doubt it ever will be.
Keyword in I, meaning me alone. I kinda grew up looking at the Predators as heroes instead of villains as the movies portrayed them to be, so when I read the novels which Perry wrote-- I accepted them as canon because of my love for the Predators as heroes, not villains.
-Rakai'Thwei
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 04:08:31 AM
(to my dismay, Hish'Que-Ten are now on Wikipedia)
I only found the term once, and that is on the Predator (Alien) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator_%28alien%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator_%28alien%29)) page.
I would say Yuajta... crud, I misspelled it, I mean Yautja because to everyone else outsdie the forums would say "WTF?" and I can't pronouce it or spell it. It's easier to say Predator or Pred.
I think Yautja is canon.
How do you pronouce it? And the other name, that's impossible to pronouce unless you can make sounds that are humanally impossible.
'Yautja' as a term, is about as canon as 'Linguafoeda Acheronsis'.
Someone once wrote into DH complaining about the depiction of Predators in a certain series and used the term 'yautja' and the letter col editor responded with 'what?'
Dark Magician and I agree on Yautja! ;D Awesome.
To answer your question Dark, Yautja is most likely prenounced as YOWT-JAH.
-Rakai'Thwei
Personally, my problem with AvP wasn't Anderson - I kinda liked his other movies and I had hoped he'd do a good job. But as it turned out, he just wanted to use the franchise to get his ridicious super-pyramid theories into a movie. Every single pitch for the AvP movie prior to Anderson were in space, in the future, because you can't just let Aliens loose on Earth. It just ain't right. But oh, no, according to Anderson, they've been here for thousands of years, along with our super awesome Predator overlords. Surely you can't be in favor of the AvP movie - even in the context of the Yautja and blooding stuff from Prey it's all wrong. Scar blooded himself, Lex was an insultingly watered down version of Machiko, and the Predators themselves were reduced to Stargate characters.
I may have my own ideas about the origins of the Aliens and Predators, but that's a good thing - that's the kind of creativity that their kind of mysterious, open-ended stories promote. Even though I think the word Yautja sounds kinda dumb and I think hogtying the Aliens and the Predators so closely together takes away from both's coolness, I'm still okay with all Perry's business. At the end of the day, it was a good story. The AvP movie is just silliness.
Besides, after Alien3, Alien:R, and AvP, this community is an oft-abuse group, repeatedly smacked around by Fox as they exploit our love of these franchises for a cheap buck.
-Pax
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 10:43:10 PM
Keyword in I, meaning me alone. I kinda grew up looking at the Predators as heroes instead of villains as the movies portrayed them to be, so when I read the novels which Perry wrote-- I accepted them as canon because of my love for the Predators as heroes, not villains.
-Rakai'Thwei
Rakai'Thwei, 'Canon' is what is established as continuity by Fox... The AVP Comics and novels based on Predator is not considered in-continuity...As far as Fox is concerned, only what was established in P1 and 2 and now AVP is considered 'canon', meaning the 'real' Predator stories, whether you like it or not... It is like the Batman movies: though I liked the first two and Batman Begins, and was somewhat OK with the other two (just a different, lighter take on the Bat world, I guess...), but i never for once confused them and the comics from which they spawned...Denny O'Neil, former Bat editor, said that he did not have anything against the movies, whichever they were, just adding that DC and him were making comics, and Warner was making movies... However, it is common knowledge that the canon is the comics, not the movies... unlike here in the Pred/Alien world, where the comics were spawned from the movies...they surely enriched the Pred culture and background, but they are a 'pocket universe' no less...
Hope this helps a bit...
About the fandom hostility amidst themselves, it is quite normal, I guess...Different POV's usually generate discussions, basically because we all have the same facts, but each on of us, we interpret them differently... Nothing to worry about... Some get more irate and frustrated when they fail to ge their point across, or are misinterpreted, or they feel offended by some remarks... But that is normal... When we feel passionate about something, with passion comes violence, though, thankfully, this violence only gets verbal... ;)
I think RakaiThwei and Dark Magician are referring to their own personal canon and not Fox's canon. Who cares what Fox thinks anyway.
How true. FOX are morons who really want a quick buck.
I agree with you guys, about FOX! (All they want is money.) But on the canon part: how would it be if everyone would just consider their own "personal canon" to be the right one? It would be chaos and would contribute even more to the instability of the fanbase.
EDIT:
*looking back*
Ehh?
Hah! As if the the fanbase and the internet as a whole isn't pure chaos already! Sharing different opinions is the reason why forums like this exist. I'm not sure what you mean by "instability". We're not going to blow up.
It's not a metter of considering one's own personal canon as "correct". It simply means that in any given discussion all sorts of differing opinions need to be taken into account. In most cases it's not an issue because most people disregard stuff beyond the films anyway = at least for the purposes of discussion.
Quote from: Extroheal on Mar 29, 2007, 10:42:34 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "instability". We're not going to blow up.
I never did say the fanbase is so unstable it's gonna "blow up". I said it
would be chaotic and unstable if everyone would have their "own canon".
A lot of people do though and it's not chaotic.
Now that I think about it, not considering the AVP movie to be canon can also be considered "personal canon".
Depends on how you define "chaos" and "chaotic", and what you're reffering to as being chaotic. I wasn't referring to arguments being chaotic, but the difference of personal canons that could cause a "canonical chaos".
EDIT:
*at myself*
lulz...
Heh, well, didn't exactly know how to say that, but I (guess) you get the point.
PS. English ain't my first.
EDIT:
Excuses excuses.
When I mean instability I mean that we're not as unified as some other fandoms now-- like the Star Trek geeks and the Star Wars geeks, y'know? I mean it would be nice if we were unified like those fandoms there--- and we'd make a neat name for ourselves but I personally feel that the fandom is at war with itself and well... that kind of bothers me a little.
I mean it's not fair that Star Wars and Trek get all the attention. :'(
-Rakai'Thwei
I like Star Wars, but I like the Alien and Predator franchises A LOT more. I hate Star Trek. (no offense to fans)
I don't know how it is with the Star Wars fanbase, as I haven't been on any of their forums. But back a while ago I used to play Jedi Academy Multiplayer, and I have to tell you some of the fans are total asses over there. They got pissed off when I defeated them and said stuff like f#ckin noob. *Shame on them for being defeated by a "f#ckin noob". :P** Or maybe it's just that those people hate Darth Maul. (I use Maul skins, he rules.)
Other than the canon disputes, there's also the "Aliens vs. Predator" conflict our fanbase has. eg. "Aliens rule Preds suck" There are @$$holes like that from both sides (Alien and Predator). There's also the age problem, I noticed that the Predator franchise seems to have more teens claiming to be fans. ("Alienz sux cuz Preditors kewl and can beet t3h bugz.")
I rarely saw immature Alien fans, but I have seen some grownup Alien fans that are really harsh with the Predator fans.
How's that essay going?
I haven't started on it because of real life issues-- but I do know what I want to put down. I'll try to remain as neutral as possible with this essay.
And regaurding Alien and Predator fans-- I will say this...
Fans of opposing sides should not DATE each other... because like AvP, the relationship will get violent... I know from first hand experience.
-Rakai'Thwei
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 31, 2007, 03:37:35 PM
When I mean instability I mean that we're not as unified as some other fandoms now-- like the Star Trek geeks and the Star Wars geeks, y'know?
I've seen a Personal Canon thread on a Star Trek forum and there was a lot of diversity in opinion. However, most of the personal canons involved excluding movies and episodes that people didn't like rather than including books and games. However, it's true that Paramount has a much better defined official canon for Star Trek than Fox has for AVP. One strange thing is that Star Trek fans are fanatical about the proper definition of the word canon (something officially given that status by an authority) so if you use the term 'personal canon' on a Star Trek forum you get blasted for using such a stupid oxymoron. They prefer the term 'personal continuity'.
Quote from: Dekapitator on Mar 31, 2007, 04:29:46 PM
Other than the canon disputes, there's also the "Aliens vs. Predator" conflict our fanbase has. eg. "Aliens rule Preds suck" There are @$$holes like that from both sides (Alien and Predator). There's also the age problem, I noticed that the Predator franchise seems to have more teens claiming to be fans. ("Alienz sux cuz Preditors kewl and can beet t3h bugz.")
I rarely saw immature Alien fans, but I have seen some grownup Alien fans that are really harsh with the Predator fans.
Hey, I'm 19 years old and I've never written like that. >:( The people who write like that are the sort who spend too much time on chat programs and assume that that sort of language is acceptable on forums too.
Quote from: Dekapitator on Mar 31, 2007, 02:33:59 PM
Heh, well, didn't exactly know how to say that, but I (guess) you get the point.
Actually I still don't understand your concept of chaos and instability and how that's any different from what we've got now.
Quote from: Extroheal on Mar 31, 2007, 11:41:44 PM
Hey, I'm 19 years old and I've never written like that. >:( The people who write like that are the sort who spend too much time on chat programs and assume that that sort of language is acceptable on forums too.
And I'm 18. I never declared all teens to be like that. My point was not mostly the language as mutch as the
attitude they have, and how many of them are just kids who "got into" AvP because of the movie.
Quote
Actually I still don't understand your concept of chaos and instability and how that's any different from what we've got now.
It's like:
Member #1: "Predators can change sexes."
Member #2: "No they can't."
Member #3: "They probably can though I'm not so sure."
Member #4: "I only consider the movies canon, so no, Predators can not change sexes."
Member #5: "I agree, they cannot, but not all the movies are canon, AVP isn't."
Member #6: "I believe AVP is canon and Yautjas CAN change sexes."
Member #7: "None of you are correct."
Member #8: "I don't really know what to consider canon and what not to.."
Member #9: "Just consider what you like as canon."
Member #10: "No, that would be chaotic, and way too contradictory."
Get it? Too many different opinions, chaotic.
But wouldn't it be so much more interesting if everyone agreed...
Quote from: Dekapitator on Apr 01, 2007, 09:30:28 AM
It's like:
Member #1: "Predators can change sexes."
Member #2: "No they can't."
Member #3: "They probably can though I'm not so sure."
Member #4: "I only consider the movies canon, so no, Predators can not change sexes."
Member #5: "I agree, they cannot, but not all the movies are canon, AVP isn't."
Member #6: "I believe AVP is canon and Yautjas CAN change sexes."
Member #7: "None of you are correct."
Member #8: "I don't really know what to consider canon and what not to.."
Member #9: "Just consider what you like as canon."
Member #10: "No, that would be chaotic, and way too contradictory."
Get it? Too many different opinions, chaotic.
Ah, now I understand. Well, as my Personal Canon thread has proven, people do have a lot of different personal canons and occasionally it does cause chaos although not as much as you think and it's not a bad thing by any means. There's a lot of disagreement about which version of Alien 3 is canon, whether Alien The Director's Cut is canon and whether the scripts, novelizations and deleted scenes are canon. Some people even refuse to accept Alien Resurrection and AVP as canon.
As for your hypothetical thread; in a real thread people will cite source material and leave it to the reader to decide what to accept. Evidence that Predators change sexes comes from Predator Forever Midnight and evidence that they don't comes from Aliens vs Predator Prey. I have yet to hear of anyone who considers Forever Midnight canon, though. They may also try to argue about why their preferred idea should be accepted as canon and not the other idea. For example, one might say that the Yautja are canon and the Hish are not because there are 3 books detailing the Yautja and only 1 book detailing the Hish, or because ideas from the AvP novel were used in the AVP movie or because the Yautja are simply more popular. The opposing side might say that the Hish are canon because the novel is newer, because the fact that the AvP novels were contradicted means they aren't canon or because the Hish seem more alien which is a good thing.
It might be chaotic but it'll be interesting.
Quote from: SM on Apr 01, 2007, 10:52:59 PM
But wouldn't it be so much more interesting if everyone agreed...
Better if people would just accept what's canon in my opinion. (of course movies that contradict others shouldn't be considered canon) I don't know why anyone would believe the AVP comics to be canon. I can understand they grew up with it, but still... I grew up with TMNT comics but if they turn out not to be canon I can accept it.
EDIT:
Now now.
QuoteBetter if people would just accept what's canon in my opinion.
But why bother? Point me to a thread where there's raging arguments about what's canon and what isn't.
Quote from: Dekapitator on Apr 02, 2007, 02:22:07 PM
Better if people would just accept what's canon in my opinion.
And whose canon should we accept? There is no official canon. Fox has never made a statement about which versions of movies are canon. We know that Fox doesn't consider the comics and novels canon because they get contradicted but that's all we know.
Quote from: SM on Apr 02, 2007, 11:03:32 PM
But why bother? Point me to a thread where there's raging arguments about what's canon and what isn't.
It's simply my opinion that it would be better if we wouldn't have many "canons" about 1 thing. (e.g. when someone knows that the comics aren't canon yet they still keep saying/trying to believe they are) I didn't emphasize on raging threads, you don't need a canon discussion to have a raging thread anyway. I just think it would be nicer if canon would be clear to every fan and we wouldn't have many different "canons".
Quote from: Extroheal on Apr 03, 2007, 08:45:44 AM
And whose canon should we accept? There is no official canon. Fox has never made a statement about which versions of movies are canon. We know that Fox doesn't consider the comics and novels canon because they get contradicted but that's all we know.
What kinda canon? -> The one that's logical and doesen't contradict itself.
QuoteI just think it would be nicer if canon would be clear to every fan and we wouldn't have many different "canons".
And my point we don't
need a consensus. We generally get on alright without one. If someone wants to bring in aspects from what others don't regard as canon, all they have to do is present them as such. People present stuff from the comics all the time in discussions - but generally preface them with "In the [insert comic series] comics an Alien did
- ". If people want to be dismissive, they just say "The comics aren't canon" (which isn't even technically correct but anyway). Others just involve whatever aspect is mentioned simply for the sake of discussion.
Quote from: Dekapitator on Apr 03, 2007, 12:24:25 PM
What kinda canon? -> The one that's logical and doesen't contradict itself.
Please elaborate. Any canon by definition isn't supposed to contradict itself.
Quote from: Extroheal on Apr 04, 2007, 04:33:11 AM
Please elaborate. Any canon by definition isn't supposed to contradict itself.
In the case of Aliens and Predators, the movies that do not have continuity errors/contradictions.
Yeah, but who decides whether Alien 3 or Alien 3 Special Edition are considered canon? And there are a few comics, novels and games that don't contradict the movies. Who decides whether they're canon or not? Also, there are some contradictions that are small enough to be ignored like the cryotubes in Alien 3. Who decides which continuity errors can be ignored and which can't? My personal canon is based on the number of reviews a product gets on Amazon.com. Most other fans' personal canon is based on what they like. There is no canon that is completely neutral and unbiased.
Quote from: Dekapitator on Mar 26, 2007, 04:46:01 PM
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 26, 2007, 03:34:07 AM
The whole honor thing which was introduced in Predator 2, some people choose to ignore flat out as if it were some bane.
I haven't seen one person who ignored that what has been presented in Predator 2. It's the "Yautja" (what a stupid name) type of honor that we ignore.
QuoteSome people have had issues with females being shown in the possible (but doubtful) Predator 3 movie.
Too much, too much and too much. * How about exploring the Predators' sexuality? The way they mate? Yeaaah, let's bring those burly Pred mommas from the comics to the bigs screen! Let us see them tossing the male Pred around while mating! The male Pred will still remain the ultimate bad ass anyway! (NOT!) Or, how about Predator society being presented in Predator3? Let's see two Predators making their spaceships while one would be telling the other one (in "Yautja" language of course!) "Hey buddy that's not the right wrench!" **...
Sarcasm aside, my point is that if you reveal too much and take away the mystery, what will you have left? I would pick the mysterious Pred from P1, or the belligerent and fascinating hunter from P2 anyday.
QuoteAlso AGAIN with the blooding and rank issues have, people STILL argue and debate about the Yautja being Unbloodeds in P1 (P2 is a different story).
Predator, not "Yautja".
QuoteWhy is the fandom afraid to see hybrids...?
I for one ain't. It would be quite interesting to see a Predator hunt down a predalien.
Quote...and Perry's Yautja aspects taken in film?
* Aspects? To hell with those! Let's see a whole Yautjan story: "Yautja comes to earth to battle the great samurai. Yautja somehow looses and samurai becomes immortal as he eats Pred... sorry, Yautja flesh!" (Hey, the Yautja HAS to loose, that's Hollywood!) **
Sarcasm aside (again), some people just do not like the whole "Yautja" concept. Why not remain with the original? Why change it? You can still bring something new without making such radical and contradicting changes. + The whole "Yautja" thing would only be new on the BIG SCREEN, they're already in the comics. I don't want "Yautjas", I want Predators.
(I hope that what I have written will not offend you in any way.)
Well said. I agree with you 100%.
Quote from: KidPresentable on Apr 13, 2007, 06:41:19 PM
Well said. I agree with you 100%.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.planetsmilies.com%2Fsmilies%2Fhappy%2Fhappy0159.gif&hash=3da894d96084e8a077fd5726e525afac363071f1)