This topic has come up on another forum and a bunch of people are increasingly convinced that not only did the Nostromo stumble across the Derelict's signal purely by accident, but that Mother was the one who wrote Special Order 937 on the fly upon detecting the signal. They've fixated on the past-tense wording of "Nostromo rerouted" while the rest is written in present-tense, implying that Mother wrote it upon detecting the signal.
Apparently Ash being put on board last-minute doesn't matter, nor does it matter that Ripley and Parker literally spell out the Company's plot after they neutralize Ash (the rationalization being that Parker and Ripley are just misunderstanding what they're seeing and wrongly assigning blame) nor does it matter that Ripley reiterates this plot in both 'Aliens' (at the inquest) and 'Alien3' (when giving the motivational speech to the prisoners).
Apparently the notion that the Company would deliberately send the Nostromo to potential death (crew expendable) is a nonsensical conspiratorial act and that if the Company made a habit of doing it, it makes them cartoonishly inept to the degree that it's unacceptable.
Evidently the fact that Burke does literally the exact same thing when he sends the colonists to check out the Derelict with no warning doesn't matter.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
@SiL and I already partially hashed this out a bit earlier, so maybe this is me just venting or looking for people to reassure me that I'm not insane, or maybe this is an opportunity for
@Local Trouble to get ChatGPT on the case and write up a defense of the theory that Mother wrote SO937 and the Company was completely uninvolved in the events of the movie.
I think I need an adult.
Here's what ChatGPT says:
QuoteTo craft a defense for the theory that the ship's artificial intelligence, Mother, autonomously wrote Special Order 937 and that the Company (Weyland-Yutani) was completely uninvolved in the events of "Alien," we'll focus on key aspects of the film and its narrative structure that support this interpretation.
Defense of the Autonomous AI Theory:
1. Autonomy of AI Systems: In the "Alien" universe, it's established that artificial intelligence systems, like Mother, possess significant autonomy and advanced decision-making capabilities. This autonomy could extend to making real-time decisions in response to unexpected situations, such as detecting an unknown alien signal. The advanced AI could have been programmed to prioritize the retrieval of non-human life forms for the Company, leading to the creation of Special Order 937 upon signal detection.
2. Past-Tense Wording in Special Order 937: The specific phrasing of Special Order 937, notably the use of past tense ("Nostromo rerouted"), suggests an order generated in response to a situation rather than pre-planned. This wording aligns with the idea that the order was created as a real-time response by Mother upon encountering the alien signal, rather than being a pre-existing directive from the Company.
3. Lack of Direct Evidence of Pre-planning: There is no explicit evidence in the original film that directly links the Company to prior knowledge of the alien or the intentional rerouting of the Nostromo. The absence of clear, direct communication from the Company about such a mission allows for the interpretation that Mother acted independently, based on its programming.
4. Narrative Structure and Thematic Elements: The film's narrative is heavily focused on the horror and unpredictability of space, emphasizing the theme of humans encountering unknown and unforeseen cosmic dangers. The theory that Mother autonomously generated the order upon detecting the alien signal aligns with this theme, underscoring the unpredictable nature of space exploration and the inherent risks of relying on AI.
5. Subsequent Interpretations and Retcons: While sequels and expanded universe materials might suggest a broader conspiracy, these were not part of the original narrative context of "Alien." Therefore, when considering the film in isolation, the interpretation that Mother acted independently without explicit Company directives is plausible.
6. Ash's Role: Ash's last-minute placement on the Nostromo can be seen as a routine crew change rather than a premeditated plot element. His secret directive to ensure the return of the alien life form could be a part of his programming as a Weyland-Yutani android, set to activate under certain conditions like the detection of non-human life forms, without specific orders from the Company.
Conclusion:
This defense hinges on the interpretation of the film's narrative and thematic elements, suggesting that the horror and suspense stem from the autonomous actions of an advanced AI system, rather than a pre-planned corporate conspiracy. It frames the events of "Alien" as a catastrophic intersection of human exploration and unforeseen extraterrestrial encounters, exacerbated by the independent actions of a highly advanced, but ultimately unsympathetic, artificial intelligence. This perspective maintains the film's focus on the unknown dangers of space and the unintended consequences of relying on artificial intelligence for critical decision-making.
My man, I knew you wouldn't disappoint.
The final film tells us the Nostromo was rerouted specifically to intercept the signal and investigate the life-form.
It's there in black and green.
I expect this to turn into another legendary battle between you two.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ve7yIO3.png)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 05, 2024, 08:31:23 AMI expect this to turn into another legendary battle between you two.
https://i.imgur.com/Ve7yIO3.png
Which two?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 05, 2024, 08:32:37 AMWhich two?
You and SiL, of course.
But I won't be surprised if ralfy enters the fray at some point.
>:(
Yes. Like SiL said.
Yup, nothing but consensus on this one;
The science officer is replaced with Ash prior to leaving Thedus to execute order 937. It appears it was unknown individuals in the science division working for their own gains. The Weyland Yutani task force compiling information on the Xenomorph learn about this post-Alien 3, and note that these individuals went to great lengths to cover their tracks once the Nostromo went missing.
Surely the idea is that the company decides to sacrifice the Nostromo and it's crew, implying they've had come across the distress signal before.
That's how I've always interpreted the film.
The same as in Aliens they send in some rag tag band of Marines who are burnt out and barely disciplined so they they can work out what they've got on LV-426 not to wipe out the species.
If they wanted to destroy they alien they'd send a bunch of synthetics with bombs and let them do the dirty work.
Quote from: dnicholson277 on Jan 06, 2024, 03:52:02 PMSurely the idea is that the company decides to sacrifice the Nostromo and it's crew, implying they've had come across the distress signal before.
Yes.
QuoteThe same as in Aliens they send in some rag tag band of Marines who are burnt out and barely disciplined so they they can work out what they've got on LV-426 not to wipe out the species.
No. The Company doesn't send the marines. They genuinely don't believe Ripley until it's too late.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 09:35:10 PMThe Company doesn't send the marines.
I thought they were personally sent by Van Leuwen himself, the CEO of Weyland-Yutani. Because the company owns the marines. Or something.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 09:35:10 PMQuote from: dnicholson277 on Jan 06, 2024, 03:52:02 PMSurely the idea is that the company decides to sacrifice the Nostromo and it's crew, implying they've had come across the distress signal before.
Yes.
QuoteThe same as in Aliens they send in some rag tag band of Marines who are burnt out and barely disciplined so they they can work out what they've got on LV-426 not to wipe out the species.
No. The Company doesn't send the marines. They genuinely don't believe Ripley until it's too late.
Part of me wants to see some kinda of media that shows the machinations of "The Company" but I'm scared they will ruin it.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 06, 2024, 09:41:22 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 09:35:10 PMThe Company doesn't send the marines.
I thought they were personally sent by Van Leuwen himself, the CEO of Weyland-Yutani. Because the company owns the marines. Or something.
I thought they only owned the marines in the EU. Burke was only sent with them (or so Burke probably claimed anyway) to look after company interests since it is their installation. He didn't have any authority over the marines as Ripley points out.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 07, 2024, 05:30:14 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 06, 2024, 09:41:22 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 09:35:10 PMThe Company doesn't send the marines.
I thought they were personally sent by Van Leuwen himself, the CEO of Weyland-Yutani. Because the company owns the marines. Or something.
I thought they only owned the marines in the EU. Burke was only sent with them (or so Burke probably claimed anyway) to look after company interests since it is their installation. He didn't have any authority over the marines as Ripley points out.
The RPG lets the players/GM decide how much control the Company has.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 07, 2024, 05:30:14 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jan 06, 2024, 09:41:22 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 09:35:10 PMThe Company doesn't send the marines.
I thought they were personally sent by Van Leuwen himself, the CEO of Weyland-Yutani. Because the company owns the marines. Or something.
I thought they only owned the marines in the EU. Burke was only sent with them (or so Burke probably claimed anyway) to look after company interests since it is their installation. He didn't have any authority over the marines as Ripley points out.
The Company only owns the marines in The Rage War (in the 27th century).
According to the first movie, the ship was sent by the company to investigate the signal. In addition, the company also got the location of the signal, which is why it instructed the ship computer to reroute the ship to the new coordinates.
What did the company do with that information after it lost contact with the Nostromo? Apparently, nothing: they even set up a colony on the same rock later and didn't bother to check the coordinates.
In order to resolve this discrepancy, we have to assume that right after they lost contact with the Nostromo, the company lost all messages to and from the ship computer, and they had no backups. The distress beacon was also damaged by volcanic activity, so any other ship they sent to the rock plus the colony never found the derelict ship.
Finally, about authority over the Marines, it was a military mission, but Burke still ordered military personnel like Bishop around. And Mr. Burke was very specific about his instructions.
Bishop's a robot. Anyone can order him around so long as it doesn't involve hurting people.
Considering he's got most people on ignore is he actually just passing at every opportunity to talk to himself?
Does anyone think Covenant retroactively changes things? I kinda think now Ash was deliberately put on board because there already is prior knowledge of the Alien handed down by David. Perhaps Ripley and Parker's assumption about Ash is correct?
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 08, 2024, 09:29:31 AMDoes anyone think Covenant retroactively changes things? I kinda think now Ash was deliberately put on board because there already is prior knowledge of the Alien handed down by David. Perhaps Ripley and Parker's assumption about Ash is correct?
Ash was put on board because of the special order so it doesn't really change anything if the order was placed because they
knew or only suspected.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 08, 2024, 09:10:47 AMConsidering he's got most people on ignore is he actually just passing at every opportunity to talk to himself?
what does your heart tell you
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 08, 2024, 09:29:31 AMDoes anyone think Covenant retroactively changes things? I kinda think now Ash was deliberately put on board because there already is prior knowledge of the Alien handed down by David. Perhaps Ripley and Parker's assumption about Ash is correct?
It changes viewers' perceptions of the first two movies but probably also explains what happened in the first movie. That is,
In the first movie, Ripley doesn't allow Dallas and the others back on the ship because of ICC regulations, and later, she tells the others that the company probably needed the organism for its bio-weapons division. Both of these imply precendence. That is, companies had been caught smuggling what turned out to be dangerous organisms, and the government had to impose regulations to stop that, and W-Y had come up with a bio-weapons division to exploit such organisms.
With that, one can argue that W-Y had been exposed to such organisms in the past, and that's revealed in the prequels. This explains why the W-Y report states that the reason why the company came up with the special order was because of what happened during the prequels.
As an aside, what about the spores and all that in the prequels? It was later revealed that there deleted scenes in the first movie referring to such organisms, which means the writers and Scott were considering them. In this case, the same director introduced what was deleted in the same prequels.
Some say the prequels also explain why they were able to partially decode the signal from the distress beacon easily, which is why the company decided to have the Nostromo rerouted to the coordinates of the beacon.
Meanwhile, even without the prequels, discrepancies already appear in the first two movies. For example, if the company instructed Mother to reroute the Nostromo to the new coordinates, then that means that the company had the location of the beacon. That means it would not have had to wait to recover the information from Ripley's lifeboat flight recorder decades later.
And yet for some reason the company did not bother to investigate the coordinates for the next few decades, not even when it set up a colony on the same rock.
Finally, if Mother operated that way, i.e., send information to the company automatically, then if it's a machine that can essentially operate the whole ship and everything inside it even as the crew is in cryo-sleep, then it would have been able to gather a lot of data on what happened inside the Nostromo and sent them to the company.
One more thing: given such a find (intelligent life and the probability of an alien craft) and the presence of a bio-weapons division that would have potentially profited incredibly from such, I would imagine the company pestering the Nostromo crew, asking them what happened to their expedition and so on. It's even possible that they knew enough to instruct Ash to follow the special order.
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 09, 2024, 12:53:17 AMQuote from: PsyKore on Jan 08, 2024, 09:29:31 AMDoes anyone think Covenant retroactively changes things? I kinda think now Ash was deliberately put on board because there already is prior knowledge of the Alien handed down by David. Perhaps Ripley and Parker's assumption about Ash is correct?
Meanwhile, even without the prequels, discrepancies already appear in the first two movies. For example, if the company instructed Mother to reroute the Nostromo to the new coordinates, then that means that the company had the location of the beacon. That means it would not have had to wait to recover the information from Ripley's lifeboat flight recorder decades later.
And yet for some reason the company did not bother to investigate the coordinates for the next few decades, not even when it set up a colony on the same rock.
No, it means the Company knew the signal was coming from a certain direction, not precisely where it was. The Nostromo got rerouted in that direction until it found the signal, but did not relay that position back to anyone. The Nostromo is lost, whoever sent her gets spooked and doesn't follow up, and then the signal goes away anyway and it becomes a moot point. Fast-forward a while and a colony gets set up there through sheer dumb luck, and then the events of 'Aliens' happens.
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 09, 2024, 12:53:17 AMQuote from: PsyKore on Jan 08, 2024, 09:29:31 AMDoes anyone think Covenant retroactively changes things? I kinda think now Ash was deliberately put on board because there already is prior knowledge of the Alien handed down by David. Perhaps Ripley and Parker's assumption about Ash is correct?
It changes viewers' perceptions of the first two movies but probably also explains what happened in the first movie. That is,
In the first movie, Ripley doesn't allow Dallas and the others back on the ship because of ICC regulations, and later, she tells the others that the company probably needed the organism for its bio-weapons division. Both of these imply precendence. That is, companies had been caught smuggling what turned out to be dangerous organisms, and the government had to impose regulations to stop that, and W-Y had come up with a bio-weapons division to exploit such organisms.
With that, one can argue that W-Y had been exposed to such organisms in the past, and that's revealed in the prequels. This explains why the W-Y report states that the reason why the company came up with the special order was because of what happened during the prequels.
As an aside, what about the spores and all that in the prequels? It was later revealed that there deleted scenes in the first movie referring to such organisms, which means the writers and Scott were considering them. In this case, the same director introduced what was deleted in the same prequels.
Some say the prequels also explain why they were able to partially decode the signal from the distress beacon easily, which is why the company decided to have the Nostromo rerouted to the coordinates of the beacon.
Meanwhile, even without the prequels, discrepancies already appear in the first two movies. For example, if the company instructed Mother to reroute the Nostromo to the new coordinates, then that means that the company had the location of the beacon. That means it would not have had to wait to recover the information from Ripley's lifeboat flight recorder decades later.
And yet for some reason the company did not bother to investigate the coordinates for the next few decades, not even when it set up a colony on the same rock.
Finally, if Mother operated that way, i.e., send information to the company automatically, then if it's a machine that can essentially operate the whole ship and everything inside it even as the crew is in cryo-sleep, then it would have been able to gather a lot of data on what happened inside the Nostromo and sent them to the company.
One more thing: given such a find (intelligent life and the probability of an alien craft) and the presence of a bio-weapons division that would have potentially profited incredibly from such, I would imagine the company pestering the Nostromo crew, asking them what happened to their expedition and so on. It's even possible that they knew enough to instruct Ash to follow the special order.
Quarantine has existed for centuries which also includes protocols on the Prometheus before they ever encountered anything.
I think Ralfy may have had a nuancectomy.
Nixon got caught trying to smuggle the crew of Apollo 11 to America.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/President_Nixon_welcomes_the_Apollo_11_astronauts_aboard_the_U.S.S._Hornet.jpg/1920px-President_Nixon_welcomes_the_Apollo_11_astronauts_aboard_the_U.S.S._Hornet.jpg)