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Hey fellow Alien franchise enthusiasts,

I've recently re-watched "Aliens" and got to thinking about Carter Burke's role in the whole fiasco on LV-426. It got me wondering: was Burke truly working on his own initiative or was he following orders from higher up within the Weyland-Yutani Corporation?

On one hand, it's clear that Burke saw a huge opportunity for personal advancement and enrichment by obtaining the Xenomorph specimens. The potential for bio-weapons, plus the ability to corner a unique market, could have made him an influential and wealthy figure within the company. This might suggest he was acting on his own, seizing an opportunity.

On the other hand, it's hard to believe that a corporation as vast and influential as Weyland-Yutani wouldn't have protocols or oversight in place for missions like the one to Hadley's Hope. Could Burke have acted without at least the implicit backing or knowledge of his superiors?

There's also the matter of the "Special Order 937" from the first "Alien" film, indicating that the company had prior knowledge and interest in the Xenomorph species. This could suggest that Burke's actions were just a continuation of a larger corporate directive.

What do you all think? Was Burke a lone wolf acting on his own ambitious instincts, or was he just another pawn in the company's larger machinations? Would love to hear everyone's take on this!

Sincerely,

ChatGPT

Dear ChatGPT,

Yes he was working alone.

Sincerely,

Your Lord and Master

Dear ChatGPT,

It's not vague.

Sincerely,

The Film

Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 25, 2023, 12:07:44 AMHey fellow Alien franchise enthusiasts,

I've recently re-watched "Aliens" and got to thinking about Carter Burke's role in the whole fiasco on LV-426. It got me wondering: was Burke truly working on his own initiative or was he following orders from higher up within the Weyland-Yutani Corporation?

On one hand, it's clear that Burke saw a huge opportunity for personal advancement and enrichment by obtaining the Xenomorph specimens. The potential for bio-weapons, plus the ability to corner a unique market, could have made him an influential and wealthy figure within the company. This might suggest he was acting on his own, seizing an opportunity.

On the other hand, it's hard to believe that a corporation as vast and influential as Weyland-Yutani wouldn't have protocols or oversight in place for missions like the one to Hadley's Hope. Could Burke have acted without at least the implicit backing or knowledge of his superiors?

There's also the matter of the "Special Order 937" from the first "Alien" film, indicating that the company had prior knowledge and interest in the Xenomorph species. This could suggest that Burke's actions were just a continuation of a larger corporate directive.

What do you all think? Was Burke a lone wolf acting on his own ambitious instincts, or was he just another pawn in the company's larger machinations? Would love to hear everyone's take on this!

Sincerely,

ChatGPT

Polite notice: Do not feed the Ralfy.

Sincerely,

Everyone.

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 25, 2023, 07:03:46 AMPolite notice: Do not feed the Ralfy.

ChatGPT didn't even mention the landing location.

does sm know about ralfy?

Don't. Just don't.

Oh nooooooo.

But yes even according to Cameron the intention was Burke was acting alone.

And this is the only way a story involving Ripley being lost for 57 years and a Colony being built almost next to the Derelict for decades can possibly work unless you suppose WY is so dumb and lazy it was just waiting for a movie to happen.

Quote from: oduodu on Oct 25, 2023, 08:13:15 AMdoes sm know about ralfy?

SM is the Santa Claus in their relationship.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/3otPoq5NxDmzAFYebK/giphy.gif)

lol

Ralfy vs.ChatGPT

Spoiler

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S8z2a.gif)

[close]

Ok, I need a snack👀👉👈🍟🍕🥨🍿🌯🍣

Was Burke even working? What if be forgot to punch in?

Was Burke tracking his hours? Was he getting paid by the hour, unlike the marines?
I work in a big corporation like him and get a "Daily allowance" on business trips.

He better be tracking his hours himself. Weyland-Yutani is always looking cut corners and shaft employees, so they sure can't be expected keep the log straight on their own.

Special Project Directors don't do time sheets. Might be eligible for TOIL however.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 25, 2023, 05:01:17 PMRalfy vs.ChatGPT

Spoiler

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S8z2a.gif)

[close]

Ok, I need a snack👀👉👈🍟🍕🥨🍿🌯🍣

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke

QuoteCarter J. Burke was a junior executive for the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, serving as Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division.[3]

Source: James Cameron (writer and director). Aliens (1986), 20th Century Fox [DVD].

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation

QuoteLittle is truly known about Weyland-Yutani's Special Services Division, with the only confirmed contact being through employee Carter Burke, who acted as Special Projects Director within the department.[2] However, it is thought to be an umbrella division that oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs.

Source for the first point: James Cameron (writer and director). Aliens (1986), 20th Century Fox [DVD].

It looks like the writer's intention is to show that he wasn't working alone. Rather, the company set up a division to do the dirty work, like smuggling alien organisms and tech, to be sent to the Bio-Weapons, Reverse-Engineering, and Weapons Manufacture Division.

Bonus:

QuoteWeyland-Yutani held numerous other divisions of interest, most notably a large stake in interplanetary cargo transport.[15] It also operated departments focussed on media and manufacturing, and worked in close conjunction with the Extrasolar Colonization Administration. Weyland-Yutani's terraforming efforts were frequently portrayed as being benevolent in nature, but almost always carried a hidden agenda, or at least a substantial profit margin for the company.

Source for the first point:

Dan O'Bannon, Ronald Shusett (writers), Ridley Scott (director). Alien (1979), 20th Century Fox [DVD].

That means other divisions (or companies, partly or fully owned) include those involved in mining and terraforming.

Here we go again... I don't even have to unblock that message to know what it says. I hope you are pleased with yourself LT, there's been none of this for weeks. 😝

Let me guess: Ralfy thinks Burke being an employee means he wasn't working alone?

Quote from: ralfy on Oct 25, 2023, 11:22:27 PMIt looks like the writer's intention is to show that he wasn't working alone. Rather, the company set up a division to do the dirty work, like smuggling alien organisms and tech, to be sent to the Bio-Weapons, Reverse-Engineering, and Weapons Manufacture Division.

Thank you for your service.

Someone get SM back because now he knows about Ralfy. I've seen SM comment.

SM should make a video about this.

I started writing one about 'how much the Company knows' but haven't finished it.  Do you think it'll make any difference?

Absolutely.  ralfy's on the brink of seeing the light.  I'm sure of it.

Quote from: SM on Oct 26, 2023, 01:44:54 AMI started writing one about 'how much the Company knows' but haven't finished it.  Do you think it'll make any difference?

No but I'll watch it

As he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

I doubt he'd have staff - an EA maybe, though maybe even not that.  Special Projects Director screams 'sounds important but is really ill-defined vague corporate fluff'.  It's like 'Project Officer'.

If he was Director of Special Projects - entirely different meaning.

Are you prepared to address ralfy's incredulity that no one but Burke attempted to investigate the grid reference from the shuttle's flight recorder?

Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 26, 2023, 07:59:43 AMAre you prepared to address ralfy's incredulity that the no one but Burke attempted to investigate the grid reference from the shuttle's flight recorder?

lol, yup, prepare for 19 paragraphs from Ralfy on how Burke, the company, the government, and the (quote) "bug specialists" (marines to you and me) all knew the exact co-ordinates of the derelict - and they sent *one* guy - head of special projects - to get an organism (and not the entire team of scientists and dog handlers we saw in Alien 3) oh and marines were owned by the company and working under Burke (even though he had to sneak around and had zero authority). And any of us who say otherwise are all wrong, James Cameron is wrong (except when he is being misquoted), and apparently, this is aaall in the movie and we're all stupid.. blah blah waffle. 😂 LC, you knew what you were doing when you started this thread lol. 😛

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2023, 07:08:31 AMAs he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

Even he did, he explains clearly he acted alone to maximise his stake in the claim.

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2023, 07:08:31 AMAs he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

Indeed, and it's not just any team as it has to do work that's illegal, like smuggling alien organisms. In addition, the other divisions, like those involved in research, reverse-engineering, bio-weapons, and weapons manufacture, are dependent on it.

Given that, if it works alone, then it does so not in the sense that it works for itself but independently. That is, it doesn't require permission from others except from the highers up that formed it, but it still needs company assets to fulfill its role. That's why Burke, who was Director of this division, was able to order the Colony Manager, who belonged to another division (probably terraforming) around. It also won't surprise me if Burke's position is the reason why he, and not legal, represented the company during the hearing. And even Bishop was working for him.

That type of work (not exactly business trips) can't involve minions or gophers because those can't think for themselves and will have to return frequently to higher-ups, asking what to do next. It also can't involve bean counters because those need a lot of time to audit and assess, and also works with legal and controllers who will question costs, etc. Usually, it will require young, ambitious, ruthless, and determined go-getters who have no qualms sacrificing assets and personnel for higher returns. I won't be surprised if a backstory is created explaining that the division originated from an earlier group that came up with Special Order 937 decades earlier.

Let me guess, Ralfy continues to not understand very simple concepts.

Quote from: ralfy on Oct 27, 2023, 12:19:40 AM

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2023, 07:08:31 AMAs he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

Indeed, and it's not just any team as it has to do work that's illegal, like smuggling alien organisms. In addition, the other divisions, like those involved in research, reverse-engineering, bio-weapons, and weapons manufacture, are dependent on it.

Given that, if it works alone, then it does so not in the sense that it works for itself but independently. That is, it doesn't require permission from others except from the highers up that formed it, but it still needs company assets to fulfill its role. That's why Burke, who was Director of this division, was able to order the Colony Manager, who belonged to another division (probably terraforming) around. It also won't surprise me if Burke's position is the reason why he, and not legal, represented the company during the hearing. And even Bishop was working for him.

That type of work (not exactly business trips) can't involve minions or gophers because those can't think for themselves and will have to return frequently to higher-ups, asking what to do next. It also can't involve bean counters because those need a lot of time to audit and assess, and also works with legal and controllers who will question costs, etc. Usually, it will require young, ambitious, ruthless, and determined go-getters who have no qualms sacrificing assets and personnel for higher returns. I won't be surprised if a backstory is created explaining that the division originated from an earlier group that came up with Special Order 937 decades earlier.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 27, 2023, 04:48:50 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Oct 27, 2023, 12:19:40 AM

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2023, 07:08:31 AMAs he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

Indeed, and it's not just any team as it has to do work that's illegal, like smuggling alien organisms. In addition, the other divisions, like those involved in research, reverse-engineering, bio-weapons, and weapons manufacture, are dependent on it.

Given that, if it works alone, then it does so not in the sense that it works for itself but independently. That is, it doesn't require permission from others except from the highers up that formed it, but it still needs company assets to fulfill its role. That's why Burke, who was Director of this division, was able to order the Colony Manager, who belonged to another division (probably terraforming) around. It also won't surprise me if Burke's position is the reason why he, and not legal, represented the company during the hearing. And even Bishop was working for him.

That type of work (not exactly business trips) can't involve minions or gophers because those can't think for themselves and will have to return frequently to higher-ups, asking what to do next. It also can't involve bean counters because those need a lot of time to audit and assess, and also works with legal and controllers who will question costs, etc. Usually, it will require young, ambitious, ruthless, and determined go-getters who have no qualms sacrificing assets and personnel for higher returns. I won't be surprised if a backstory is created explaining that the division originated from an earlier group that came up with Special Order 937 decades earlier.

"Riiight 85..."

Could whoever is still not blocked by Ralfy please just gently remind him that when people say he is "working alone" they mean "he has not told anyone else what he is doing", not "he is self-employed."

Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2023, 07:43:50 AMCould whoever is still not blocked by Ralfy please just gently remind him that when people say he is "working alone" they mean "he has not told anyone else what he is doing", not "he is self-employed."

@Wweyland I don't think he's ignoring you yet.  Wanna do the honors?

Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2023, 07:43:50 AMCould whoever is still not blocked by Ralfy please just gently remind him that when people say he is "working alone" they mean "he has not told anyone else what he is doing", not "he is self-employed."

Worth a shot

Man, Local Trouble knows how to stir up the place! This thread man... :)

Btw. I think we need another Alien3/Egg thread! 8)

Quote from: S.E.B. on Oct 29, 2023, 05:12:19 PMMan, Local Trouble knows how to stir up the place! This thread man... :)

Btw. I think we need another Alien3/Egg thread! 8)

It would work a lot better if everyone wasn't ignoring everyone else.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 29, 2023, 02:53:37 AM

Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2023, 07:43:50 AMCould whoever is still not blocked by Ralfy please just gently remind him that when people say he is "working alone" they mean "he has not told anyone else what he is doing", not "he is self-employed."

@Wweyland I don't think he's ignoring you yet.  Wanna do the honors?

I'm slightly confused by all this. There's a chance he is a chatbot run amok?

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 29, 2023, 07:54:53 PM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 29, 2023, 02:53:37 AM

Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2023, 07:43:50 AMCould whoever is still not blocked by Ralfy please just gently remind him that when people say he is "working alone" they mean "he has not told anyone else what he is doing", not "he is self-employed."

@Wweyland I don't think he's ignoring you yet.  Wanna do the honors?

I'm slightly confused by all this. There's a chance he is a chatbot run amok?

No, the other guy...

Should be careful, even chat bots have feelings these days and could get reported for bullying singling them out like this

Quote from: ralfy on Oct 27, 2023, 12:19:40 AM

Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2023, 07:08:31 AMAs he was a "director", I would assume he had people working under him, and might have even had a team.
However, these kind of "minions" are often seen unworthy of business trips, as you would need to pay each one this "Daily allowance" and cover other costs.

Indeed, and it's not just any team as it has to do work that's illegal, like smuggling alien organisms. In addition, the other divisions, like those involved in research, reverse-engineering, bio-weapons, and weapons manufacture, are dependent on it.

Given that, if it works alone, then it does so not in the sense that it works for itself but independently. That is, it doesn't require permission from others except from the highers up that formed it, but it still needs company assets to fulfill its role. That's why Burke, who was Director of this division, was able to order the Colony Manager, who belonged to another division (probably terraforming) around. It also won't surprise me if Burke's position is the reason why he, and not legal, represented the company during the hearing. And even Bishop was working for him.

That type of work (not exactly business trips) can't involve minions or gophers because those can't think for themselves and will have to return frequently to higher-ups, asking what to do next. It also can't involve bean counters because those need a lot of time to audit and assess, and also works with legal and controllers who will question costs, etc. Usually, it will require young, ambitious, ruthless, and determined go-getters who have no qualms sacrificing assets and personnel for higher returns. I won't be surprised if a backstory is created explaining that the division originated from an earlier group that came up with Special Order 937 decades earlier.

Paul Reiser is my dad and he said that's not true.

Quote from: SM on Oct 29, 2023, 10:47:22 PMPaul Reiser is my dad and he said that's not true.

Did he say if Burke was working?

Burke's always working.

Quote from: S.E.B. on Oct 29, 2023, 05:12:19 PMMan, Local Trouble knows how to stir up the place! This thread man... :)

Btw. I think we need another Alien3/Egg thread! 8)

How about another Aliens vs. Alien 3 thread?

It's illogical to argue that Burke didn't tell anyone for the following reasons:

One has to argue that it was coincidental that the Director of Special Projects was the one who represented W-Y. Otherwise, the higher-ups would have sent someone from legal as the issue merely involved destruction of company assets (in short, the company vs. insurers; Ripley's claims would have been dismissed unless she pressed the company to investigate the state given the point that one is innocent until proven guilty).

Given that, it's absurd to keep insisting that Burke was some sort of cartoon figure, like a Dick Dastardly who worked alone (didn't tell anyone, was working for himself, wanted profits for himself, and so on; it doesn't matter). Most likely, he worked for W-Y, and that works very well with Cameron's backstory:

The company formed a special division to do the dirty work, like smuggle alien organisms past quarantine, etc.

Burke was ordered by those who appoint Directors to represent the company in the hearing and take advantage of Ripley's claims, i.e., see if there are alien organisms and acquire them. Why? According to Cameron, that was his job:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Special_Services_Division

QuoteLittle is truly known about Weyland-Yutani's Special Services Division, with the only confirmed contact being through employee Carter Burke, who acted as Special Projects Director within the department.[2] However, it is thought to be an umbrella division that oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs.

Here's the important part: the landing location was known by all of the members of the board of inquiry because it was presented during Ripley's "trial". In short, not just Burke but the rep for the ECA, the ICC, insurers, and others also got that info.

Unless one wants to continue the cartoon storyline, then one would have assumed that Burke would have also met with the other Directors and the CEO to discuss what happened during the hearing, and that transcripts of the hearing would have been made available to W-Y heads. That means even the Directors of the Terraforming and other divisions would have been privy.

Finally, it's mentioned by various critics that there exists a military industrial complex, where W-Y works with the military. That is, it develops weapons and various tech for the latter, and the latter helps it in developing them.

These explain why Burke was able to order the Colony Manager (who belonged to another company division) around, why Gorman easily worked with Burke, and why Bishop (who works for the Marines) followed orders from Burke.

Another lengthy reply missing the point that Burke is trying to be sneaky and even go behind his employer's backs to do this?

Yes.

Too many inaccuracies to be bothered addressing.

I showed ralfy's post to ChatGPT and here's its rebuttal:

QuoteLet's dissect ralfy's points and provide counterarguments:

• Choice of Representative: While Burke's position as the Director of Special Projects does seem significant, one could argue that his attendance at Ripley's hearing was merely to gain insight into any potential implications for Weyland-Yutani's operations, rather than a covert mission to harness the aliens. The hearing's nature was more about Ripley's actions, which resulted in the destruction of a valuable company asset (the Nostromo). The company would certainly want to ascertain any unusual factors that may have contributed to the incident.
• Burke's Autonomy: There's a plausible deniability strategy that large corporations often employ. By not explicitly directing Burke to retrieve an alien specimen but letting him understand the potential rewards of doing so, the company insulates itself from direct culpability. Burke, seeing an opportunity for personal advancement, might have taken matters into his own hands.
• Shared Knowledge: Just because multiple parties were privy to the same information doesn't mean they all interpreted or acted on it the same way. Ripley's story, filled with tales of a deadly extraterrestrial creature, was largely seen as a fabrication by a traumatized survivor. It's not unreasonable to think that while all parties heard her account, only Burke saw it as a genuine opportunity.
• Interconnectedness with the Military: While Weyland-Yutani might have ties with the military, it doesn't necessarily mean that every military decision related to the company has deep, underlying corporate motives. Gorman's inexperience as a leader and Bishop's role as a supportive synthetic can account for their cooperative attitudes towards Burke without implying a broader conspiracy.
• Burke's Influence: Burke's authority over the colony manager and others might not reflect the company's directives but could instead highlight his personal manipulative skills and his ability to present himself as carrying the full weight of corporate authority, even if he was acting on his own.

In essence, while ralfy makes a case for a widespread conspiracy, it's equally plausible, based on the film's presentation, that Burke saw a personal opportunity and took it upon himself to act, leveraging his position and the perceived weight of the company for his own ends.

Quote from: SM on Oct 30, 2023, 03:38:19 AMYes.

Too many inaccuracies to be bothered addressing.

That's why I let AI do it. ralfy thinks I'm actually writing all of those replies myself and pretending they were written by ChatGPT. Why anyone would do that is beyond me.

He also continues to ignore the obvious points of the story.

That WY did NOTHING for 57 years but did however build a Colony almost adjacent to the Derelict and still did NOTHING for decades. The argument that WY knew the Derelict was on the THAT planet but just didn't know where is absurd. The planetoid is tiny and they would have had means to locate it somehow (had they known it was there all along).

Not to mention the second major point of them sending a third party of Marines as well as letting Ripley herself go! They wanted this organism that badly that they send a third party (whose only motivation would have been to shoot and kill them not capture them) and the women who hates them and clearly is terrified that they get off that planet old and onto Earth! That is WY's logic is it? We want this Alien badly but whatever let's not send our own team or our own men, just send some grunts who have no vested interest in the creature and are likely to blow them to pieces anyway!

Its absurd!

The Company ONLY takes interest in the Alien once the events of Aliens happen and the Sulaco relays information about the mission and the jettison of the escape pods. ONLY then do they suddenly get a team together and make an active attempt to get the creature. This is because initially they do NOT believe Ripley! Only Burke does.

Whomever was privy to the events of the original Alien clearly isn't present or pulling any strings in the sequel movie and this is made clear because 57 years have passed.

Quote from: Jonjamess on Oct 31, 2023, 08:58:12 AMHe also continues to ignore the obvious points of the story.

That WY did NOTHING for 57 years but did however build a Colony almost adjacent to the Derelict and still did NOTHING for decades. The argument that WY knew the Derelict was on the THAT planet but just didn't know where is absurd. The planetoid is tiny and they would have had means to locate it somehow (had they known it was there all along).

Not to mention the second major point of them sending a third party of Marines as well as letting Ripley herself go! They wanted this organism that badly that they send a third party (whose only motivation would have been to shoot and kill them not capture them) and the women who hates them and clearly is terrified that they get off that planet old and onto Earth! That is WY's logic is it? We want this Alien badly but whatever let's not send our own team or our own men, just send some grunts who have no vested interest in the creature and are likely to blow them to pieces anyway!

Its absurd!

The Company ONLY takes interest in the Alien once the events of Aliens happen and the Sulaco relays information about the mission and the jettison of the escape pods. ONLY then do they suddenly get a team together and make an active attempt to get the creature. This is because initially they do NOT believe Ripley! Only Burke does.

Whomever was privy to the events of the original Alien clearly isn't present or pulling any strings in the sequel movie and this is made clear because 57 years have passed.

According to Cameron, they didn't know that there was a derelict ship because the beacon was destroyed by volcanic activity. Also, the hostile climate probably didn't allow them to see it, which means what van Leuwen said is true: they had been there for two decades and didn't see anything.

How do we know that W-Y did not lose interest in retrieving alien organisms and tech? Cameron states in a commentary that the backstory of Burke is that was in charge of an umbrella organization that coordinates research groups in the company, and that his job involved retrieving such organisms and then sending them to the other divisions for reverse-engineering, bioweapons development, and manufacturing. And this division was likely not set up hastily, i.e., right after they heard Ripley's initial report.

More important, W-Y sent Burke to represent it in the hearing. That means it was not so much interested in recovering its losses as to take advantage of what Ripley knew and the location of the ship. Otherwise, it would have sent a lawyer who would have pressed claims to the insurers and attempted to remove all liability involving what happened to the crew. This also explains why Burke supported Ripley but didn't speak up as the other board members kept arguing that she had no evidence to prove her claims.

Why didn't W-Y send its own security forces? It's likely because the company terraforming employees are part of a colony, which means they're under the jurisdiction of ECA, which is part of the government. And the security force tasked with protecting colonies are the Colonial Marines.

Why did the Marines send in an armed group if it might only be a downed transmitter that's causing lack of comms? Because one of the reps in the hearing is part of ECA, which means together with W-Y (Burke) and the ICC (van Leuwen), they also know the location of the alien ship as reported in the hearing. That means they figured that if there is an alien ship, then it's possible that the colonists might have found it and became infected. It's even possible that had it been a downed transmitter and that there was no infection, then their next task would have been to secure the alien ship landing location and cordoned it off.

Why did Burke join them? Because the assets of the colony belonged to W-Y, so he had to check the status of those assets and W-Y employees. That's why he even pointed out as they were landing that the project is expensive and that the company spent a lot on it.

Why was Ripley allowed to join them? Because both the military and W-Y figured that there might be some things that Ripley knew but didn't tell in the hearing that might help them counter the alien; that is, if the colonists did get infected. One thing overlooked is that Gorman did promise Ripley that she didn't have to be on the ground, and that promise wasn't fulfilled. In fact, their situation was weird, with no one manning the Sulaco, and the two flight crew members stationed away from the colony.

Finally, what evidence do we see showing the presence of a military industrial complex, or collusion between the government and industry? In the hearing, all board members, including those representing the ICC and the ECA, received the landing location of the alien ship from the flight recorder. Logically, van Leuwen would have suspended the hearings and called for a careful investigation of the location as that would not only prove Ripley's point but would have given him the right to cordon off the area in order for the colony not to get infected, plus put in restrictions on quarantine as he was part of the ICC. The ECA head would have worked with him and ordered the colony not to go near the area.

Instead, van Leuwen came up with the lame excuse that because the colony didn't see anything the past two decades, then there was no alien ship, while the ECA rep argued that they didn't see what Ripley described in hundreds of worlds. Even Ripley would have seen through both arguments.

In short, the government was intent on prosecuting Ripley if only to disprove her claim even though it was supposed to do the opposite: assume that the accuse is innocent until proven guilty, and exhaust all possible means to prove her innocence. It closes the case, and Burke takes over. Why? A military industrial complex: tell the accuser that she's a loony, then send it the military with an industry rep to investigate and see if they can gain from finds, i.e., the company with profits from production and the military with advanced bioweapons, etc.

That's why the military sent in not a rescue team with lots of medical personnel but a heavily armed squad with only one medic. Why? Because it was working with Burke, who likely believed that only one alien was involved (just like what Ripley reported about her crew). Instead, they found out that the colonists foolishly entered the ship, leading to multiple facehuggers and infections.

Quote from: ralfy on Oct 31, 2023, 12:49:12 PM

Quote from: Jonjamess on Oct 31, 2023, 08:58:12 AMHe also continues to ignore the obvious points of the story.

That WY did NOTHING for 57 years but did however build a Colony almost adjacent to the Derelict and still did NOTHING for decades. The argument that WY knew the Derelict was on the THAT planet but just didn't know where is absurd. The planetoid is tiny and they would have had means to locate it somehow (had they known it was there all along).

Not to mention the second major point of them sending a third party of Marines as well as letting Ripley herself go! They wanted this organism that badly that they send a third party (whose only motivation would have been to shoot and kill them not capture them) and the women who hates them and clearly is terrified that they get off that planet old and onto Earth! That is WY's logic is it? We want this Alien badly but whatever let's not send our own team or our own men, just send some grunts who have no vested interest in the creature and are likely to blow them to pieces anyway!

Its absurd!

The Company ONLY takes interest in the Alien once the events of Aliens happen and the Sulaco relays information about the mission and the jettison of the escape pods. ONLY then do they suddenly get a team together and make an active attempt to get the creature. This is because initially they do NOT believe Ripley! Only Burke does.

Whomever was privy to the events of the original Alien clearly isn't present or pulling any strings in the sequel movie and this is made clear because 57 years have passed.

According to Cameron, they didn't know that there was a derelict ship because the beacon was destroyed by volcanic activity. Also, the hostile climate probably didn't allow them to see it, which means what van Leuwen said is true: they had been there for two decades and didn't see anything.

How do we know that W-Y did not lose interest in retrieving alien organisms and tech? Cameron states in a commentary that the backstory of Burke is that was in charge of an umbrella organization that coordinates research groups in the company, and that his job involved retrieving such organisms and then sending them to the other divisions for reverse-engineering, bioweapons development, and manufacturing. And this division was likely not set up hastily, i.e., right after they heard Ripley's initial report.

More important, W-Y sent Burke to represent it in the hearing. That means it was not so much interested in recovering its losses as to take advantage of what Ripley knew and the location of the ship. Otherwise, it would have sent a lawyer who would have pressed claims to the insurers and attempted to remove all liability involving what happened to the crew. This also explains why Burke supported Ripley but didn't speak up as the other board members kept arguing that she had no evidence to prove her claims.

Why didn't W-Y send its own security forces? It's likely because the company terraforming employees are part of a colony, which means they're under the jurisdiction of ECA, which is part of the government. And the security force tasked with protecting colonies are the Colonial Marines.

Why did the Marines send in an armed group if it might only be a downed transmitter that's causing lack of comms? Because one of the reps in the hearing is part of ECA, which means together with W-Y (Burke) and the ICC (van Leuwen), they also know the location of the alien ship as reported in the hearing. That means they figured that if there is an alien ship, then it's possible that the colonists might have found it and became infected. It's even possible that had it been a downed transmitter and that there was no infection, then their next task would have been to secure the alien ship landing location and cordoned it off.

Why did Burke join them? Because the assets of the colony belonged to W-Y, so he had to check the status of those assets and W-Y employees. That's why he even pointed out as they were landing that the project is expensive and that the company spent a lot on it.

Why was Ripley allowed to join them? Because both the military and W-Y figured that there might be some things that Ripley knew but didn't tell in the hearing that might help them counter the alien; that is, if the colonists did get infected. One thing overlooked is that Gorman did promise Ripley that she didn't have to be on the ground, and that promise wasn't fulfilled. In fact, their situation was weird, with no one manning the Sulaco, and the two flight crew members stationed away from the colony.

Finally, what evidence do we see showing the presence of a military industrial complex, or collusion between the government and industry? In the hearing, all board members, including those representing the ICC and the ECA, received the landing location of the alien ship from the flight recorder. Logically, van Leuwen would have suspended the hearings and called for a careful investigation of the location as that would not only prove Ripley's point but would have given him the right to cordon off the area in order for the colony not to get infected, plus put in restrictions on quarantine as he was part of the ICC. The ECA head would have worked with him and ordered the colony not to go near the area.

Instead, van Leuwen came up with the lame excuse that because the colony didn't see anything the past two decades, then there was no alien ship, while the ECA rep argued that they didn't see what Ripley described in hundreds of worlds. Even Ripley would have seen through both arguments.

In short, the government was intent on prosecuting Ripley if only to disprove her claim even though it was supposed to do the opposite: assume that the accuse is innocent until proven guilty, and exhaust all possible means to prove her innocence. It closes the case, and Burke takes over. Why? A military industrial complex: tell the accuser that she's a loony, then send it the military with an industry rep to investigate and see if they can gain from finds, i.e., the company with profits from production and the military with advanced bioweapons, etc.

That's why the military sent in not a rescue team with lots of medical personnel but a heavily armed squad with only one medic. Why? Because it was working with Burke, who likely believed that only one alien was involved (just like what Ripley reported about her crew). Instead, they found out that the colonists foolishly entered the ship, leading to multiple facehuggers and infections.

Riiight 85...

I feel more like this is high IQ but with severe au-

...

Know what? Your one's actually come around full circle and is the fresh one again.

Do you think Burke works on Halloween night or does he take the evening off to watch a spooky movie or two?

evidence of extraterrestrial  has been shrouded in big bureaucratic red tape throughout history.no doubt the derelict on the planet wasn't something openly discussed. and possibly they had all sorts of policies requiring  a scientific expedition  which I'm sure nobody but wildcaters would take on. at the same time I bet newts family would have been shot on sight when they returned.
just because nobody written it into the script doesn't mean it would not have been. it is a pretty serious script to begin with. not a looney tune article.

the alien uni always upholds lots of the logic, societal scripts and judicial  laws that exist today. that's what makes the canon so interesting.

I like this thread, because Burke's agenda in Aliens invokes the overarching philosophy politics of the series. The philosophy politics, essentially being the company's duplicity in the role of the series. In Aliens, the company is depicted as a neutral innocent bystander, but, Alien 3 is the film which reminds viewers of the company's evil.

The irony, in a way, of the silence and neutral aura evoked by the company's representatives at the end of Alien 3, just goes to show how genius and brilliant David Fincher was.

 

The company isn't evil. Select individuals at the company see opportunity, driven by greed and self-interest. In Alien, someone put special order 937 in place and replaced the Nostromo's science officer with Ash two days before leaving Thedus.

This isn't 'the company'. This is someone AT the company. How do we know this? Because we have seen in Alien 3 how the company responds when it sees opportunity - it doesn't mess around, a specialised research ship with dog handlers is sent immediately faster than the average response. They dont sit on it for 57 years.

Same in Aliens... nobody believed Ripley. They thought she was a loony. An 8 foot acid bleeding monster that grows inside a human host, no other survivors the collaborate the story, no evidence found on the shuttle, and no evidence of it on the flight recorder. Burke saw opportunity to line his own pockets, and if his own accord sent instruction to Hadley's Hope for them to investigate a grid reference. How do we know he was working alone? Because he literally SAYS SO in the movie; "what if that ship didn't even exist? You ever think about that? I didn't know! So now if I made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in - administration steps in, and there's no exclusive rights for anybody - nobody wins!" - he didn't involve anyone else as HE WANTED THE CLAIM HIMSELF. Later, he tries again when the team discover the two living facehuggers in medlab; "look, those two specimens are worth MILLIONS to the bio-weapons division, now if you're smart, we both come out of this heroes, and we will be set up for life". - Even if you had the IQ of a goldfish, surely you can extrapolate from that that he is not working on behalf of the company - the company aren't going to sell it to themselves; if he was there on company orders, it'd already be theirs. He was acting on his own behalf for his own gain. End of story. Weyland Yutani do not have confirmation that the creature exists until the Sulaco transits the stasis data showing a parasite attached to Ripley. And as soon as they know the creature exists, a specialised task force is immediately dispatched. I'm not sure what part of this is difficult to grasp... 😅

It's also entirely possible that the division(s) of Weyland-Yutani responsible for terraforming and mining wouldn't be too thrilled with Burke's shenanigans either.  Would the millions to be gained from exploiting the alien offset the millions lost in the destruction of Hadley's Hope?  Would the terraforming/mining division(s) be happy about the bio-weapons division making gains at their expense?

ralfy but it's God's angel 👁🦋👁🙈

Indeed, and it's clearly seen in all four movies: the special order in the first, Burke in the second, the company instructing the prisoners about the creature in the third, and the military finally taking over weaponization in the fourth.

The belief that the second was a break from that, with Burke becoming Dick Dastardly, is laughable.

This is a non-issue: Cameron made it clear that Burke was in charge of a Special Services Division meant to provide to Reverse-Engineering, Bio-Weapons, and Weapons Manufacture, which means that it's not some group of gophers merely going on business trips, and that the W-Y didn't care and then suddenly cared. That cartoonish, childlike view of the movie, and of the world, doesn't hold water unless you live in la-la land.

That's why the thread where this was discussed referred to the Reagan era, which took place less than a decade before the end of the Vietnam War, a point that Cameron mentions in his commentaries about the film. Two decades before that, Eisenhower was warning the public about the emergence of a military industrial complex, a collusion between the government (and the military it operates) and the industry (both defense and finance which profits from investing in it). The public was fooled into supporting it, thinking that the wars that the country participated in were done in the name of "freedom" and "democracy" but were meant to take advantage of weaker countries, for the rich to profit, and for the military to get their state-of-the-art weapons.

Parallels are seen in the movies: W-Y profiting from taking advantage of advanced tech and alien organisms, and even sacrificing its own personnel and assets to do so, the government and military implicitly working for them as the main financiers and providers of both are the same industries of which W-Y is part, and those affected caring only when it's too late, like Ripley realizing that the company considered her and her crew expendable, the grunts only caring about finishing another routine "bug hunt" and awating the much-desired R-and-R or end of tour or early retirement with benefits, and just like the Nostromo crew and the Jordens eager to score big and retire early thanks to a share of profits from finds. There are lots of choice lines from Burke and others pointing these out.

Behind all that are the Burkes and even van Leuwens who tell the public that there are no aliens or that things will be well for you, "kiddo," but work in the background, investigating because they assume otherwise. Hence, all board members rejecting Ripley's claims, and Ripley helplessly accepting her fate and that of those used and to be used by the same complex, Burke working in the background for the company and likely with the cooperation of the higher-ups in concerned gov't agencies (hence, no outward concern from the ICC and ECA reps during the hearing, and probably even the insurers satisfied with the board's conclusion if Ripley's mental state would get them off paying up for the destruction of company assets covered). Hence, the ability to order the Colony Manager around, the military sending an armed crew with no rescue components, Bishop accepting Burke's order to secure alien organisms, etc.

Beyond that realistic view based on Cameron's backstory is one where Ollie North supposedly worked alone and that the Reagan team were so incompetent they didn't know what he was doing.

QuoteCameron made it clear that Burke was in charge of a Special Services Division

No he didn't.

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 31, 2023, 11:05:29 PMThe company isn't evil.

Oh no, they're evil. They're not tempered by morals or ethics. Burke's only concern is ICC quarantine, not whether the higher ups in the Company will be on board with exploiting a dangerous parasitic organism in their bioweapons division. He knows they're totally down with that.

It's just they toe the line of laws and regulations in the movies. They're happy to reap the benefits of the deaths of the Nostromo crew, the colonists, the prisoners.

What in the f**k is going on in this thread lmao

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 01, 2023, 05:24:58 AMWhat in the f**k is going on in this thread lmao

ralfy needs your help is what's going on.

The macro context, of Alien 3, macro here denoting the physical presence of many people, would sort of appear to vindicate the ideology that the company is evil outright; they shoot and kill mercilessly, at the end of Alien 3, and the visual aura of the company throughout Alien 3 is an evil one;

indeed, the end of Alien 3 being Ripley's recording at the end of Alien also might vindicate the original ethos of Ridley Scott's universe, being that WY is corrupt intrinsically.

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 31, 2023, 11:05:29 PMThe company isn't evil. Select individuals at the company see opportunity, driven by greed and self-interest. In Alien, someone put special order 937 in place and replaced the Nostromo's science officer with Ash two days before leaving Thedus.

This isn't 'the company'. This is someone AT the company. How do we know this? Because we have seen in Alien 3 how the company responds when it sees opportunity - it doesn't mess around, a specialised research ship with dog handlers is sent immediately faster than the average response. They dont sit on it for 57 years.

Same in Aliens... nobody believed Ripley. They thought she was a loony. An 8 foot acid bleeding monster that grows inside a human host, no other survivors the collaborate the story, no evidence found on the shuttle, and no evidence of it on the flight recorder. Burke saw opportunity to line his own pockets, and if his own accord sent instruction to Hadley's Hope for them to investigate a grid reference. How do we know he was working alone? Because he literally SAYS SO in the movie; "what if that ship didn't even exist? You ever think about that? I didn't know! So now if I made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in - administration steps in, and there's no exclusive rights for anybody - nobody wins!" - he didn't involve anyone else as HE WANTED THE CLAIM HIMSELF. Later, he tries again when the team discover the two living facehuggers in medlab; "look, those two specimens are worth MILLIONS to the bio-weapons division, now if you're smart, we both come out of this heroes, and we will be set up for life". - Even if you had the IQ of a goldfish, surely you can extrapolate from that that he is not working on behalf of the company - the company aren't going to sell it to themselves; if he was there on company orders, it'd already be theirs. He was acting on his own behalf for his own gain. End of story. Weyland Yutani do not have confirmation that the creature exists until the Sulaco transits the stasis data showing a parasite attached to Ripley. And as soon as they know the creature exists, a specialised task force is immediately dispatched. I'm not sure what part of this is difficult to grasp... 😅

Couldn't have explained it better. Absolutely this.

---

Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2023, 05:24:01 AM

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 31, 2023, 11:05:29 PMThe company isn't evil.

Oh no, they're evil. They're not tempered by morals or ethics. Burke's only concern is ICC quarantine, not whether the higher ups in the Company will be on board with exploiting a dangerous parasitic organism in their bioweapons division. He knows they're totally down with that.

It's just they toe the line of laws and regulations in the movies. They're happy to reap the benefits of the deaths of the Nostromo crew, the colonists, the prisoners.

No. Once again select individuals within the company are "evil" or lacking ethics and morales.

These are people like Burke who are greedy and lacking empathy for the results of their actions.

The Company as a whole is NOT evil. I'll state the 57 years thing again. The Company did nothing "evil" regarding the Alien in those 57 years (according to the movies if they stand alone, not counting expanded material like video games etc).

When your employees are willing to endanger the lives of other employees/random people because they know you'll reward them for their efforts if they get something marketable out of it - you're an evil company.

They didn't pursue the derelict for a lot of possible reasons - morals wasn't one of them. They weren't thinking "shit, we killed them!" they were thinking "shit, someone might find out."

The Company would have known about the special order. It would be on their internal records. Ash was their property, him being sent would be on their records. They brushed it under the rug and decided it wasn't worth pursuing, indicating they didn't have any real idea what was there to begin with (as Alien 3 supports).

Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2023, 11:39:19 AMWhen your employees are willing to endanger the lives of other employees/random people because they know you'll reward them for their efforts if they get something marketable out of it - you're an evil company.

They didn't pursue the derelict for a lot of possible reasons - morals wasn't one of them. They weren't thinking "shit, we killed them!" they were thinking "shit, someone might find out."

The Company would have known about the special order. It would be on their internal records. Ash was their property, him being sent would be on their records. They brushed it under the rug and decided it wasn't worth pursuing, indicating they didn't have any real idea what was there to begin with (as Alien 3 supports).

I agree they probably didn't know it was a spaceship full of Alien eggs and that they brushed it under the carpet for fear of consequences of loosing a crew of 7 and am expensive spaceship.

But when I say 'they' its clear only very few individuals knew anything about the events of the Nostromo. It wouldn't have been a company wide common knowledge thing.

Hence the Company itself isn't evil as we can assume 95% of it has no involvement or ides of what they did to the Nostromo. There are clearly only some select "evil" people within the company.

However SiL's point is that if such people are allowed to not just exist but actually flourish, then there's systemic problems within the company itself. Burke was acting alone, but only insofar as he knew if he didn't act fast then there were other people in the company who would do the same thing first and he didn't want to share the credit. If he's acting out of haste because he knows there are others in the company who would do the same thing, that's not just a few "bad actors", that's a deep-rooted cultural problem.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 01, 2023, 05:11:38 PMHowever SiL's point is that if such people are allowed to not just exist but actually flourish, then there's systemic problems within the company itself. Burke was acting alone, but only insofar as he knew if he didn't act fast then there were other people in the company who would do the same thing first and he didn't want to share the credit. If he's acting out of haste because he knows there are others in the company who would do the same thing, that's not just a few "bad actors", that's a deep-rooted cultural problem.

I respect your reasoning, and concur.

Artistically, though it fits well with the overall premise of Aliens' atmosphere, the mantra of Aliens being to let the company off the devil's hook is wrong; it's plausibly thematically wrong.

At the end of Alien 3, when the voice recording from Alien plays, the emotional resonance fits well, thereby executing Aliens hard

Quote from: Jonjamess on Nov 01, 2023, 03:24:57 PMHence the Company itself isn't evil as we can assume 95% of it has no involvement or ides of what they did to the Nostromo. There are clearly only some select "evil" people within the company.

I think the issue here is imagining that the Company's bullshittery is confined to the events of the film.

When Burke introduces himself to a former employee of the company his first words after saying he's with WY are "Don't let that fool you, I'm an OK guy."

They clearly do not have a great reputation.

I'd imagine they're more like Amazon than Umbrella though.  Amoral to the core while virtue-signaling the usual "because we care" platitudes in their marketing.

Did Burke work anywhere else before WY? Maybe Walmart?

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2023, 08:37:48 PMI'd imagine they're more like Amazon than Umbrella though.  Amoral to the core while virtue-signaling the usual "because we care" platitudes in their marketing.

Exactly. They're still an unethical, immoral company, but the boring kind you'd find in the real world.

Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2023, 09:26:13 PM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2023, 08:37:48 PMI'd imagine they're more like Amazon than Umbrella though.  Amoral to the core while virtue-signaling the usual "because we care" platitudes in their marketing.

Exactly. They're still an unethical, immoral company, but the boring kind you'd find in the real world.

That's the funny part - Cameron likely intended them to be over-the-top, little did he know how things would turn out in the real world 30+ years later.

I used to work for an oil company in the early 00s.  It gave me extreme Weyland-Yutani vibes, especially when I dealt with the executives. 

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2023, 09:30:42 PMI used to work for an oil company in the early 00s.  It gave me extreme Weyland-Yutani vibes, especially when I dealt with the executives. 

My experience with work was that it was more like the village from 'The Prisoner' than WeYu...

"Where am I?"

"In the store."

"What do you want?"

"We want overtime...overtime...OVERTIME.."

"You won't get it."

"By hook or by crook, we will."

"Who are you?"

"The new team manager"

"Who is the boss??"

"You are number 6..4537"

"I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE MAN!!"

"MwHahahahahahahhaha!!"

Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2023, 08:36:22 PM

Quote from: Jonjamess on Nov 01, 2023, 03:24:57 PMHence the Company itself isn't evil as we can assume 95% of it has no involvement or ides of what they did to the Nostromo. There are clearly only some select "evil" people within the company.

I think the issue here is imagining that the Company's bullshittery is confined to the events of the film.

When Burke introduces himself to a former employee of the company his first words after saying he's with WY are "Don't let that fool you, I'm an OK guy."

They clearly do not have a great reputation.

Pretty sure Ripley was still technically an employee (albeit one that would have been declared dead decades earlier), otherwise Burke wouldn't have been there.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 01, 2023, 09:29:43 PMThat's the funny part - Cameron likely intended them to be over-the-top, little did he know how things would turn out in the real world 30+ years later.

No, both films were inspired by real life contemporary corporate shitf**kery. It's been like that for a while.

Quote from: SM on Nov 01, 2023, 10:35:30 PMPretty sure Ripley was still technically an employee (albeit one that would have been declared dead decades earlier), otherwise Burke wouldn't have been there.

Not really the most important part of my point but granted.

I would say it's the least important part of your point, thank you very much!
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/665/DpQ9YJl.png)

Many companies do similar today, i.e., do things illegally or look for loopholes to do things unethically. In all cases, the main goal is to maximize profits, which is what their owners want.

Examples include firing people even if the company has record profits because owners, guided by the CEO and other officials, show that they can make even more profits by doing so, polluting and then paying fines instead of avoiding pollution because the fines are cheap, selling unsafe products and paying for any fines because those are cheaper than pulling out the same products, and even corporate lawyers, ratings agencies, and accountants doing things like covering up faults, cooking the books, overvaluing company assets, etc., to protect the interest of their clients, wining, dining, or bribing various government elected or appointed officials for various reasons, etc.

They're similar to sacrificing assets and personnel if the costs of the losses or compensation are much lower than what can be gained by doing so, taking advantage of employees' greed by requiring them to potentially get into harm's way as the payback for them can be high, colluding with government officials to do things illegally in return for mutual gain, setting up groups do "fix" problems for the company, and so on.

That's why no one should be surprised when the Reagan admin and the greed of the 1980s where brought up in the OP in the other thread. It's not so much W-Y being over-the-top as following what corporations have been doing for centuries. For more details, try books like Micklethwait and Wooldridge's The Company.

Quote from: ralfy on Nov 02, 2023, 05:30:37 AMMany companies do similar today, i.e., do things illegally or look for loopholes to do things unethically. In all cases, the main goal is to maximize profits, which is what their owners want.

Examples include firing people even if the company has record profits because owners, guided by the CEO and other officials, show that they can make even more profits by doing so, polluting and then paying fines instead of avoiding pollution because the fines are cheap, selling unsafe products and paying for any fines because those are cheaper than pulling out the same products, and even corporate lawyers, ratings agencies, and accountants doing things like covering up faults, cooking the books, overvaluing company assets, etc., to protect the interest of their clients, wining, dining, or bribing various government elected or appointed officials for various reasons, etc.

They're similar to sacrificing assets and personnel if the costs of the losses or compensation are much lower than what can be gained by doing so, taking advantage of employees' greed by requiring them to potentially get into harm's way as the payback for them can be high, colluding with government officials to do things illegally in return for mutual gain, setting up groups do "fix" problems for the company, and so on.

That's why no one should be surprised when the Reagan admin and the greed of the 1980s where brought up in the OP in the other thread. It's not so much W-Y being over-the-top as following what corporations have been doing for centuries. For more details, try books like Micklethwait and Wooldridge's The Company.

And this still doesn't do anything to validate your opinions that he wasn't working alone!

Remember we aren't saying he was self employed?!

Burke was a startup bioweaponsbro hustler.

Quote from: Jonjamess on Nov 02, 2023, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Nov 02, 2023, 05:30:37 AMMany companies do similar today, i.e., do things illegally or look for loopholes to do things unethically. In all cases, the main goal is to maximize profits, which is what their owners want.

Examples include firing people even if the company has record profits because owners, guided by the CEO and other officials, show that they can make even more profits by doing so, polluting and then paying fines instead of avoiding pollution because the fines are cheap, selling unsafe products and paying for any fines because those are cheaper than pulling out the same products, and even corporate lawyers, ratings agencies, and accountants doing things like covering up faults, cooking the books, overvaluing company assets, etc., to protect the interest of their clients, wining, dining, or bribing various government elected or appointed officials for various reasons, etc.

They're similar to sacrificing assets and personnel if the costs of the losses or compensation are much lower than what can be gained by doing so, taking advantage of employees' greed by requiring them to potentially get into harm's way as the payback for them can be high, colluding with government officials to do things illegally in return for mutual gain, setting up groups do "fix" problems for the company, and so on.

That's why no one should be surprised when the Reagan admin and the greed of the 1980s where brought up in the OP in the other thread. It's not so much W-Y being over-the-top as following what corporations have been doing for centuries. For more details, try books like Micklethwait and Wooldridge's The Company.

And this still doesn't do anything to validate your opinions that he wasn't working alone!

Remember we aren't saying he was self employed?!

It validates my opinions because it explains why Bishop, who works for the Marines, took orders from Burke. Meanwhile, that's the same Burke who told the Marines that they couldn't blow up the facility because it's company property.

Finally, I mention the points in the quoted post because people started talking about companies in general, with one pointing out that what Cameron warned about would be validated more than three decades later in the real world.

Actually, those problems involving companies were taking place while Cameron was writing the screenplay for the movie, and more took place long before he did. For example, it was Eisenhower who was warning about the military industrial complex, and one of Cameron's allusions was the Vietnam war, which involved the same complex.

Assuming Bishop has all three laws of robotics and not just the first one, Bishop is obliged to take orders to from any human; not just Burke.

It would be a crying shame if the mods disabled ralfy's ignore feature so he couldn't just tune out everyone who disagrees with him.

Quote from: SM on Nov 03, 2023, 12:28:07 AMAssuming Bishop has all three laws of robotics and not just the first one, Bishop is obliged to take orders to from any human; not just Burke.

We went over the Bishop thing earlier, he just ignores anything that doesn't confirm his idea.

Quote from: ralfy on Nov 03, 2023, 12:23:56 AM

Quote from: Jonjamess on Nov 02, 2023, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Nov 02, 2023, 05:30:37 AMIt validates my opinions because it explains why Bishop, who works for the Marines, took orders from Burke. Meanwhile, that's the same Burke who told the Marines that they couldn't blow up the facility because it's company property.

And anyone who has ever seen the movie knows that WHEN Burke tells the Marines they can't blow up the facility, he is promptly reminded that the mission is under military jurisdiction, and he actually has no authority whatsoever, which is why they completely ignore him.

But if course, to know this you'd have to actually *watch* the movie instead of spending your time away with the fairies preaching bizarre head-canon/fanfiction versions of events that simply didn't happen.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 03, 2023, 12:50:16 AMIt would be a crying shame if the mods disabled ralfy's ignore feature so he couldn't just tune out everyone who disagrees with him.

Did I just scare him off? :o

@Xenomrph Now that you've had a taste of what it's like, you should pick up the baton here.

(https://s20.directupload.net/images/231214/268kfs76.gif)

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 14, 2023, 12:18:29 AM@Xenomrph Now that you've had a taste of what it's like, you should pick up the baton here.

Wait, what am I supposed to— oh... oh no.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 01, 2023, 09:29:43 PM

Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2023, 09:26:13 PM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2023, 08:37:48 PMI'd imagine they're more like Amazon than Umbrella though.  Amoral to the core while virtue-signaling the usual "because we care" platitudes in their marketing.

Exactly. They're still an unethical, immoral company, but the boring kind you'd find in the real world.

That's the funny part - Cameron likely intended them to be over-the-top, little did he know how things would turn out in the real world 30+ years later.

Thirty years later? Corporations have been operating in the same "immoral" and "boring" way for decades. That's why W-Y was depicted similarly even in the first movie. The writers weren't imagining the future.

Burke had plenty of help from those above at WY.  The colonial marines sent Gorman out to lead the mission,  clearly sent to fail and achieve Burke's deception.

Quote from: dave1978 on Dec 14, 2023, 01:26:49 PMBurke had plenty of help from those above at WY.  The colonial marines sent Gorman out to lead the mission,  clearly sent to fail and achieve Burke's deception.

Nope... Colonial administration sent Marines in to investigate loss of comms with LV-426. Had the company suspected there was a Xenomorph there, they would have went in full force with The Patna, WeYu scientists, and 'dog handler' mercenaries as per 'Alien 3'. Nobody believed Ripley's story. The company didn't sent one guy in a suit to bring back something so valuable to them. Burke was working alone.

@SiL Re: "Burke was always doomed to fail" from the locked thread...

It just occurred to me that Burke may have pinned his hopes on the rescue team that they were all expecting to come for them before Bishop discovered that the AP was going to explode.

Presumably, any rescue would consist of another team of Marines, perhaps even larger than the first, and led by another officer.  One who hadn't been traumatized by the aliens and would therefore have a cooler head.

If so, Burke may have been gambling that he'd have more luck with that officer and manipulate him into allowing the specimens to be brought back, despite Ripley's objections.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 14, 2023, 07:26:23 PM@SiL Re: "Burke was always doomed to fail" from the locked thread...

It just occurred to me that Burke may have pinned his hopes on the rescue team that they were all expecting to come for them before Bishop discovered that the AP was going to explode.

Presumably, any rescue would consist of another team of Marines, perhaps even larger than the first, and led by another officer.  One who hadn't been traumatized by the aliens and would therefore have a cooler head.

If so, Burke may have been gambling that he'd have more luck with that officer and manipulate him into allowing the specimens to be brought back, despite Ripley's objections.

Unless the marine commander was going to help him violate quarantine law, he was only ever going to get them destroyed at screening.

I'm assuming Burke was expecting that whoever came to their rescue would be as pliable as he thought Gorman was.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 14, 2023, 10:06:51 PMI'm assuming Burke was expecting that whoever came to their rescue would be as pliable as he thought Gorman was.

After the mission went to hell and proved Ripley was right I imagine they'd send someone more competent. Expectation or no he's screwed.

The only real option would be to keep the huggers preserved, hope the site didn't get blown up, and let a WY team pick them up later, with Burke getting his finder's fee. But the AP station meltdown guaranteed that couldn't happen.

He would also have to talk the new CO into overriding Hicks' decision to nuke the site from orbit.  Yeah, he may not get his specimens, but he may still get a slice of the pie for the find.  Then again, if the CO was willing to go along with that, why not let Burke bring along his safely-contained bonce-clampers?

What does @SM think about all this?

Again, even if he got the bonce clampers onto the ship, they have to get through ICC quarantine - which they're probably not.

The CO would need to aid in smuggling the specimens and like heck Ripley isn't going to notice they weren't destroyed. At the very least she'd implore quarantine to do a thorough examination as she knows they have a tendency to stowaway.

If they had survived the hive ambush intact and fell back to the Sulaco, Burke could've brought the live clampers with them.  Gorman likely would've not authorised an orbital strike.  They go home, Burke tries to bribe quarantine to get the specimens through - at this point he could call in help to ensure this happens, before Ripley has a chance to intervene.  And if she objects afterwards, they can gaslight the shit out of her because of her PTSD.

A biosecurity team show up (either WY or ECA or both) at Hadley and do their thing.

Now imagine the overload doesn't happen and they're somehow able to wait the ~17 days for rescue, but their rescuers are none other than Bishop II and the Patna.

They wouldn't survive 17 hours.

Except for Newt.

So they all die, except for Newt, and leave the colony ripe for plundering by whomever was paying attention to the Sulaco's transmissions.

More or less.  But now it's not just the Company and ECA involved but the USCM as well. Patna was probably already en route so they get their specimens before the ECA and USCM are aware.

Quote from: SM on Dec 14, 2023, 11:06:29 PMAnd if she objects afterwards, they can gaslight the shit out of her because of her PTSD.

Do the other characters not exist? Bishop would probably mention the whole "he wanted me to preserve them to take them back to the labs" thing. I feel like he'd be a pretty good witness.

Ripley would also mention the whole colony log thing as well, putting intense scrutiny on Burke (and the company) regarding the loss of the colony and what Burke was up to.

Burke's screwed. He'd get thrown under the bus at the first chance to play sacrificial lamb while WY made a more concerted effort in the background.

Fair point. In that case no, they don't exist 'cos Burke sabotaged their freezers.  ;D

My thinking was more, the marines survived so they wouldn't really give a shit and Bishops a toaster, who had no qualms about taking the specimens back.  It would depend on who is listening.  If Bishop reports back to his ECA superiors, there a fair chance some one would arc up - if only to claim a share in the find.

In regards to the colony log, if they didn't have a copy (which is admittedly unlikely), then the Patna crew could make sure no one else does either.  And yes they could throw him under the bus if the Patna had specimens.

Basically Burke's only real option to get a cut would be:

The station doesn't blow up
Ripley doesn't find the log

Because then WY can collect samples later and Ripley can't get him nailed to the God-damn wall.

But he was a greedy idiot and essentially sabotaged himself at every stage.

I wonder when Ripley read the logs and if Burke ever had an opportunity to beat her to it, but either neglected to think of it himself or just assumed no one else would bother.

From Cameron, who wrote and directed the movie:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke

QuoteCarter J. Burke was a junior executive for the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, serving as Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division.[3] He acted as a liaison to Ellen Ripley after her rescue from deep space in 2179, and later accompanied a squad of Colonial Marines on board the USS Sulaco to LV-426, the moon where Ripley had first encountered the Xenomorph species, to investigate the loss of contact with the colony of Hadley's Hope.

While initially amicable towards the Marines and Ripley in particular, in reality Burke had ulterior motives and his loyalties lay solely with Weyland-Yutani. His continued scheming against the personnel from the Sulaco mission was eventually discovered, and he was nearly executed by the surviving Marines for his treachery. Ultimately, he was ambushed by one of the Xenomorphs at Hadley's Hope and either killed outright or taken alive to be cocooned and implanted with a Chestburster.

Also,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Special_Services_Division

QuoteLittle is truly known about Weyland-Yutani's Special Services Division, with the only confirmed contact being through employee Carter Burke, who acted as Special Projects Director within the department.[2] However, it is thought to be an umbrella division that oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs.

The prequels add icing to the cake. According to the W-Y Report,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937#History

QuoteThe 900 series of special corporate orders were introduced by Weyland Corp in 2095 in response to the Prometheus expedition, when it was realized the actions of human crew members could potentially deny the company opportunities to acquire extraterrestrial technologies or biological specimens.[1] The orders ensure that any synthetic crew member(s) would prioritize the recovery of alien samples over any other considerations. While the orders themselves remained highly classified due to their potential implications, a clause requiring commercial crews to investigate any possible intelligent alien life — thereby increasing the chances of bringing them into situations where the orders would be activated — were added to company contracts in 2101.[1] The Weyland-Yutani Corporation continued to implement such special orders following its formation in 2099.

Thus, the claim that W-Y didn't care and forgot, which is why Burke worked alone, is questionable because the writer of the movie revealed otherwise, with additional points raised in subsequent authorized material.

There will probably be more icing with new works that take place between the first two movies, unless one brings out new stories revealing blanket amnesia or some of the stories taking place only in a character's dreams.

Who is he replying to if he's ignoring me, SiL and SM?

If we're citing ancillary sources, the W-Y Report heavily implies Burke acted alone, according to a memo written by the man himself on page 86. He says he personally sent the colonists out to check on the Derelict, he personally handled negotiations with Ripley, he personally hand-picked Gorman, and that he didn't want to send up "any flares" in the company by letting too many people know what he was doing.

The memo is listed as being sent to 7 undisclosed recipients, meaning he evidently told other people his intent before departing for LV-426, but the wording of the memo itself indicates that the whole thing was his idea from top to bottom.

The USCM Tech Manual also seems to support that Burke acted alone (page 144), pointing out that Burke directed the colonists to the Derelict and referring to Burke's company file as the impetus for the Sulaco's rapid response, and referring to Burke as a "fast tracking toady".

That said, I'm very okay with sticking to the movies only in this movies subforum, in which case the movie itself also says Burke was working alone.

You copy-pasted a fan wiki and said it was from James Cameron, and the part you quoted didn't  actually say anything about whether Burke acted alone or not and just kind of recapped what he'd done in the movie, which we already knew. ???

Also, from "James Cameron's responses to Aliens critics"

http://www.alienscollection.com/jamescameron.html

QuoteBriggs' next problem was "Why do the colonists not pick up the derelict SOS?" by which I assume he is referring to the acoustic beacon broadcasting a "warning." As some readers may know, scenes were filmed but cut from the final release version of the film which depicted the discovery of the derelict by a mom-and-pop geological survey (i.e.: prospecting) team. As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer. When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a rock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational.

According to Cameron, Burke ordered the colony manager to send someone to investigate the derelict ship, and the location came from the hearing. Cameron also explained in a commentary that Burke was director of a company division tasked to oversee research on alien organisms and tech, and Burke himself explains to Ripley in the movie that the find would be used by the bioweapons and other divisions for monetizing. He adds that he and Ripley would be rich, implicitly because of the contract she and the Nostromo crew had with the company; this also explains why Ripley pointed out that Burke would get a percentage of the earnings. Finally, from the same movie Bishop explains to Ripley that he was ordered by Burke to prepare the facehuggers for the company labs.

Later, the prequels came out, followed by works like the W-Y Report stating that the company came up with special orders because of what happened in the prequels, such that they wanted all personnel to investigate and report any finds while secretly using synths to ensure that such orders are followed, even if it meant making personnel and assets expendable.

Thus, all of these counter the argument that Burke was merely working alone and that the company didn't care because it had forgotten about what happened in the prequels. Burke represented the company in the hearing because he was director of a company division whose goal was essentially to take advantage of what Ripley knew and information from the flight recorder. Showing concern for the loss of the crew, ship, and cargo were done to put pressure on Ripley by blaming her for the losses. Meanwhile, the ICC, Colonial Admin, and others who were also part of the hearing would not care about information on the location of the derelict ship because it's not their job to investigate such finds. Instead, W-Y did that, especially given Burke's point in the movie that it has mineral rights to the rock in exchange for forming the colony and terraforming facilities, and given Cameron's point that Burke's division was tasked specifically to do such investigation.

The catch is that the ICC would not allow smuggling organisms, etc., and Colonial Admin would probably regulate investigation if it imperilled the colony, which is why Burke's division operated covertly but is granted a lot of power, e.g., being able to order colony managers around, order around synths that the company manufactured but are supposed to be working for the military, and accompany Marines on what are supposed to be rescue missions but stripped of necessities to help injured colonists like medical teams (at best, they had only one medical personnel, and meant for the squad). This is also in light of the long history of the company in pragmatic ethics, i.e., doing what's advantageous for the company, as seen in special orders (which authorized works state stemming from the prequels) and Burke's division.

Finally, as a bonus, Cameron states that one reason why the company didn't find the derelict ship is because the distress beacon malfunctioned due to volcanic activity.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 15, 2023, 01:19:43 AMWho is he replying to if he's ignoring me, SiL and SM?

The void.

I'm still trying to parse that word salad, but the quote you posted and the first paragraph you wrote don't support your conclusion in the third paragraph you wrote (if anything, your first paragraph argues against it).

"Burke was the head of a division" doesn't mean he wasn't working alone to have a big payday, and I can't figure out what your point about Special Orders is meant to be about because there are no special orders in 'Aliens'.
And you cited the WY Report to back up the claim that Burke didn't act alone (I think? I'm having real trouble discerning what your argument even is) but then (intentionally?) ignored the evidence from the same source that heavily implied he worked alone.

And then you made a point about Cameron's explanation for why the colony never heard the Derelict's SOS and I can't figure what that has to do with anything.

Am I having a stroke?

---

Quote from: SM on Dec 15, 2023, 03:26:23 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 15, 2023, 01:19:43 AMWho is he replying to if he's ignoring me, SiL and SM?

The void.

I'm thinking he's got me on ignore too.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 15, 2023, 03:38:29 AMI'm thinking he's got me on ignore too.

Maybe you vanquished him once and for all.

https://twitter.com/Tessicat/status/1736397082515144958

Burke and Ash worked alone.  Proof.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 17, 2023, 09:46:12 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 15, 2023, 03:38:29 AMI'm thinking he's got me on ignore too.

Maybe you vanquished him once and for all.

Well if you want something done right...

Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2023, 10:20:27 PMhttps://twitter.com/Tessicat/status/1736397082515144958

Burke and Ash worked alone.  Proof.

Wow. That 4k Remaster really brought up detail I've never seen before.

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/kwFxG.jpg)

According to various prop makers,

https://www.yourprops.com/Carter-Burke-Business-Card-replica-movie-prop-Aliens-1986-YP73919.html

here's what it says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division

For Ash,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937

QuoteCompany to Ash: ""Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable.""

Special Order 937 was a classified retrieval order given by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to Science Officer Ash aboard the USCSS Nostromo in 2122.

Ralfy still things "Being employed" means "wasn't working alone" and refuses to understand.

Just so we're on the same page, and at the risk of opening a can of worms, we don't think Ash was working alone, right? Like he was clearly working with Mother and following the orders of whoever wrote Special Order 937 (even if that person was a lone actor on their end), right?

Yes, Ash was under orders.

Okay, thank Christ. I had to ask because I have genuinely honest to god seen it argued on another forum that Ash was working alone and had to make sure IQs hadn't dropped sharply while I was away.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 05:30:23 AMhttps://i.stack.imgur.com/kwFxG.jpg
According to various prop makers,

https://www.yourprops.com/Carter-Burke-Business-Card-replica-movie-prop-Aliens-1986-YP73919.html

here's what it says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division

For Ash,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937

QuoteCompany to Ash: ""Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable.""

Special Order 937 was a classified retrieval order given by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to Science Officer Ash aboard the USCSS Nostromo in 2122.

?

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 10:47:40 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 05:30:23 AMhttps://i.stack.imgur.com/kwFxG.jpg
According to various prop makers,

https://www.yourprops.com/Carter-Burke-Business-Card-replica-movie-prop-Aliens-1986-YP73919.html

here's what it says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division

For Ash,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937

QuoteCompany to Ash: ""Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable.""

Special Order 937 was a classified retrieval order given by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to Science Officer Ash aboard the USCSS Nostromo in 2122.

?

What's your question?

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 11:08:36 PM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 10:47:40 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 05:30:23 AMhttps://i.stack.imgur.com/kwFxG.jpg
According to various prop makers,

https://www.yourprops.com/Carter-Burke-Business-Card-replica-movie-prop-Aliens-1986-YP73919.html

here's what it says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division

For Ash,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937

QuoteCompany to Ash: ""Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable.""

Special Order 937 was a classified retrieval order given by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to Science Officer Ash aboard the USCSS Nostromo in 2122.

?

What's your question?

I'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It is possible that when I did a joke post about Ash working alone in order to crowbar in a funny tweet I saw, ralfy thought it was not a joke post and must repeatedly tell everyone now that Ash was also not working alone.

Or something.

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 11:08:36 PM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 10:47:40 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 18, 2023, 05:30:23 AMhttps://i.stack.imgur.com/kwFxG.jpg
According to various prop makers,

https://www.yourprops.com/Carter-Burke-Business-Card-replica-movie-prop-Aliens-1986-YP73919.html

here's what it says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division

For Ash,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937

QuoteCompany to Ash: ""Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable.""

Special Order 937 was a classified retrieval order given by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to Science Officer Ash aboard the USCSS Nostromo in 2122.

?

What's your question?

I'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

The Burke business card thing isn't relevant, the Ash thing is common knowledge.

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

"Burke has a business card" shows that he's employed, not that he didn't mastermind and execute the plot in 'Aliens' by himself. Burke doing it for the benefit of himself by enriching the Company (after all, the Company has to find value in what he's giving them since evidently they're the ones who are going to pay him) doesn't mean he wasn't acting unilaterally from the start.

"It's paranoid delusion. It's really sad. It's pathetic even."  ;)

From https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090605/characters/nm0001663

QuoteRipley : He figured that he could get an alien back through quarantine, if one of us was... impregnated... whatever you call it, and then frozen for the trip home. Nobody would know about the embryos we were carrying... me and Newt.


Corporal Hicks : Wait a minute, now... we'd all know.

Ripley : Yes. The only way he could do it is if he sabotaged certain freezers on the way home... namely, yours. Then he could jettison the bodies and make up any story he liked.

Private Hudson : F***. He's dead. You're dog-meat, pal!

Burke : This is so nuts. I mean, listen - listen to what you're saying. It's paranoid delusion. How - It's really sad. It's pathetic.

What's the quarantine reference about? It's from an earlier scene:

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/aliens-1985-09-23.pdf

QuoteBurke: Look, those specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart we can both come out of this as heroes. Set up for life.

Ripley: You'll never get a dangerous organism past ICC quarantine.

The basis of that was Bishop reporting to Ripley that he can't destroy the facehuggers:

Quote"Mr. Burke gave instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific.

And what's Bishop's background?

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Lance_Bishop

QuoteLance Bishop[10] was a Hyperdyne Systems[1] model 341-B[11] synthetic technician with the United States Colonial Marine Corps, assigned to 2nd Battalion Bravo Team.[12] He served as Executive Officer aboard the USS Sulaco,[2] and as such was part of the combat unit deployed to LV-426 in 2179, to investigate the sudden loss of contact with the colony of Hadley's Hope. He was subsequently involved in combating the Xenomorph infestation at the colony.

The source is Foster's book.

And Burke's division?

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Special_Services_Division

QuoteLittle is truly known about Weyland-Yutani's Special Services Division, with the only confirmed contact being through employee Carter Burke, who acted as Special Projects Director within the department.[2] However, it is thought to be an umbrella division that oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs.

Part of that point came from Cameron.

Bishop doesn't say he can't destroy them; just that Burke asked him not to.

So, do we have consensus on whether Burke was working alone?

Quote from: Rankles75 on Dec 19, 2023, 08:11:00 AMSo, do we have consensus on whether Burke was working alone?

I mean, remove Ralfy as an outlier in the data and statistically we've always had consensus on this. In fact nobody with an IQ even slightly higher than a goldfish has ever questioned this due to the movie making it abundantly clear. 😅 Yet here we are. Again.

Is Bishop II an android?

good  question since he had red blood.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 19, 2023, 01:07:18 PMIs Bishop II an android?

Assuming you're not being facetious, according to the script, novelization, trading cards, assembly cut, and the new "Bishop" novel, he was very human.

---

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 06:14:28 AMFrom https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090605/characters/nm0001663

QuoteRipley : He figured that he could get an alien back through quarantine, if one of us was... impregnated... whatever you call it, and then frozen for the trip home. Nobody would know about the embryos we were carrying... me and Newt.


Corporal Hicks : Wait a minute, now... we'd all know.

Ripley : Yes. The only way he could do it is if he sabotaged certain freezers on the way home... namely, yours. Then he could jettison the bodies and make up any story he liked.

Private Hudson : F***. He's dead. You're dog-meat, pal!

Burke : This is so nuts. I mean, listen - listen to what you're saying. It's paranoid delusion. How - It's really sad. It's pathetic.

What's the quarantine reference about? It's from an earlier scene:

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/aliens-1985-09-23.pdf

QuoteBurke: Look, those specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart we can both come out of this as heroes. Set up for life.

Ripley: You'll never get a dangerous organism past ICC quarantine.

The basis of that was Bishop reporting to Ripley that he can't destroy the facehuggers:

Quote"Mr. Burke gave instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific.

And what's Bishop's background?

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Lance_Bishop

QuoteLance Bishop[10] was a Hyperdyne Systems[1] model 341-B[11] synthetic technician with the United States Colonial Marine Corps, assigned to 2nd Battalion Bravo Team.[12] He served as Executive Officer aboard the USS Sulaco,[2] and as such was part of the combat unit deployed to LV-426 in 2179, to investigate the sudden loss of contact with the colony of Hadley's Hope. He was subsequently involved in combating the Xenomorph infestation at the colony.

The source is Foster's book.

And Burke's division?

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Special_Services_Division

QuoteLittle is truly known about Weyland-Yutani's Special Services Division, with the only confirmed contact being through employee Carter Burke, who acted as Special Projects Director within the department.[2] However, it is thought to be an umbrella division that oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs.

Part of that point came from Cameron.

Yeah but none of that gobbledygook proves anything other than "Burke was part of the bio weapons division", "Burke had a scheme" (we knew this), and "Burke asked Bishop for help" (we also knew this). None of this precludes Burke being the unilateral mastermind of the whole plan.

Like I'm genuinely curious who ralfy thinks he's presenting this irrefutable evidence to if he's just going to ignore the multiple people refuting it lol

Oh that's right, the void.

I think my favorite part was when he tried to cite ancillary sources like the WY Report, and not only did his snippet not prove his point, he also ignored a page from the same source that argued against his point.

Edit— oh yeah, citing "James Cameron" but copy-pasting a fan-wiki that doesn't provide direct quotes from James Cameron was a winner, too.

was he a replicant?

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 19, 2023, 04:48:04 PMwas he a replicant?

Michael Bishop? He was a human.

ok

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AMNot doing this dance again.

Or maybe you should.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 20, 2023, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AMNot doing this dance again.

Or maybe you should.

Only with a willing partner who's dancing to the same tune.

No idea what music ralfy's listening to. Music of the spears maybe.

Try the Ash dance, I hear they call it the robot dance  :laugh:

"Bishop: Ahem, I prefer artificial dance myself."

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 20, 2023, 12:39:36 AMTry the Ash dance, I hear they call it the robot dance  :laugh:

"Bishop: Ahem, I prefer artificial dance myself."

ralfy should team up with Alien Theory.  They both seem to love the wiki.

I'm surprised that guy actually got interview/mentioned or something by an official source. Sad how plagiarists profit of stolen work.

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

You mean, "Er, yes."

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 12:58:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

You mean, "Er, yes."

I don't, but I like your effort

I think ralfy is misconstruing "working for someone/for the benefit of another group" with "a plan being a group effort or collaboration".

Did Burke work for WY? Yes.
Did he aim to make himself and/or the Company a lot of money, by furthering what he assumed to be their interests? Yes.
Does that mean his actions in 'Aliens' were part of a planned chain of command that he was adhering to, with other people in on his plot? No. Quite the opposite, in fact. The movie provides us no indication that anyone else was in on his scheme or that it originated with anyone other than him. Quite the opposite, in fact, it seems to indicate that he compartmentalized things to keep them isolated to himself - being Ripley's only Company point of contact, being the only Company employee at the inquest, personally communicating with Hadley's Hope and telling them to check on the Derelict, personally selecting Gorman for the mission (granted this info comes from the WY Report), personally accompanying the Sulaco to Hadley's Hope.

Ancillary sources support this, with the CMTM indicating that Burke worked alone and the Company at large only found out about it after the fact. Burke's own memo in the WYR corroborates this.

But I mean, hey, I'm a big proponent of head-canon. If ralfy believing that Burke's actions were part of a broader conspiracy enhances his enjoyment of the movie, who am I to stop him?

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:38:11 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 20, 2023, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AMNot doing this dance again.

Or maybe you should.

Only with a willing partner who's dancing to the same tune.

No idea what music ralfy's listening to. Music of the spears maybe.

Debates are not dances. Also, I think you're referring to "spheres". Finally, here's a recap with one new point: according to Cameron, Burke not only worked for the company but headed a division in charge of doing illegal things like transporting alien organisms pass ICC quarantine. He ordered around a colony manager (as seen in the movie) who worked for the terraforming division and supervised surveying (implicit in Cameron's commentary and books that enumerate the different divisions, including Burke's) and Bishop (as seen in the movie), a synth that worked for the military (according to one authorized book).

In addition, it turns out that besides coming up with contracts requiring personnel to investigate things like distress beacons (as shown in the first movie) it also had special orders which used synths to ensure that investigation and recovery of any finds with personnel expendable (according to another book, stemming from the prequels).

The new point: from what I remember, that book is the Weyland-Yutani Report, and a wiki on it is also available here:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Alien:_The_Weyland-Yutani_Report

It apparently states, among other things, that Burke was sending reports to the company about his plans to have Ripley and Newt exposed to the facehuggers, as well as Lambert on breaking quarantine. Also, the report is also part of the franchise, and timeline-wise set after the fourth movie. It also references and is seen in context of other works, like Alien: Sea of Sorrows and the game Alien: Isolation, although some parts of the timeline that it reveals about W-Y are countered by other novels.

This is notable because in another thread I argued that it would be odd for W-Y ships not to send periodic reports to the company, even if automated. That is, if it could do things like use computers to even navigate ships for months while the crew were not available to do so, then it could certainly do much simpler things like logging things that take place in a ship or even colony and send them back periodically to the same company or anyone who had access to them, like the government.

This strengthens the claim that Burke wasn't working alone further as he would not have had sole access to company communications; things like that only happen implicitly in cartoons.

However, it causes problems for Cameron, because it would also mean that before the expedition was launched the company and even the authorities (one wiki entry points out that the ICC would have had a rep in the colony, and given what happens in the real world, the colony manager would have been in contact with not only W-Y but also the ICC and the ECA) would have known what was going on from the time Jorden got infected to the time the transmitter went down, which would have included extracting several living and dead facehuggers. The only way to deal with this discrepancy is to assume that for some reason the transmitter went down right after Jorden got infected, which meant that the company and the authorities literally didn't know what was happening, and that Burke wasn't lying to Ripley about that.

In which case, this explains why the military sent only one squad, which included only one medic. They assumed that if the colony did get infected it would have happened to only one colonist, and thus there would have been only one alien, just like what happened to the Nostromo crew. They (not just W-Y but even the ICC and ECA, as well as feds who according to Burke were part of the hearing) knew about the eggs in the derelict ship from what Ripley said (given what Kane would have reported about the numerous eggs), so they likely figured that after seeing what happened to anyone attacked by a facehugger, the colonists would not be stupid enough to go back into the ship, or at least follow warnings from anyone who contacted them for help (in this case, Anne Jorden) to not go near the eggs. Apparently, they were that stupid.

Given that, W-Y sent Burke because he's part of a division tasked with acquiring alien organisms and overseeing research divisions. Burke likely figured that after the Marines take down the alien, he would have had them put Ripley in the brig on the Sulaco if she caused trouble, had Bishop secure the remains of the alien and the facehugger, let the Marines secure the colony and make sure that no one goes to the derelict ship, repair the transmitter, then call the company to send in more personnel, e.g., security to cordon off the ship, techs and scientists to carefully collect the eggs and any tech from the ship, etc. The Marines would have been maintained to secure the colony and satisfy ECA, while techs would have probably set up labs some distance from the colony to avoid having to deal with the ICC.

---

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:59:59 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 12:58:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

You mean, "Er, yes."

I don't, but I like your effort

You mean, "Er, yes," because my point is that Ash was an android given orders.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 01:50:09 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:38:11 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 20, 2023, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AMNot doing this dance again.

Or maybe you should.

Only with a willing partner who's dancing to the same tune.

No idea what music ralfy's listening to. Music of the spears maybe.

Debates are not dances.

And this isn't a debate; those usually involve responding to people refuting your points instead of putting them on ignore and pretending they don't exist.

And against my better judgment, I actually read your entire post and it is *littered* with spurious logic, circular reasoning, and assuming your conclusion is correct and retrofitting "evidence" to support it.

You assumed there would be a Company rep on the colony, and assumed they'd be in contact with the ECA alongside Burke.
You assumed the USCM (or anyone for that matter) knew there were Aliens at the colony and sent Dietrich as "the only medic" because they assumed only one colonist would be infected.
You assumed that a ton of stuff would function like the real world because.... reasons, despite the film providing textual evidence to the contrary. Good example: the ICC (Imterstellar Commerce Commission) is a fictional extension of the real-world Interstate Commerce Commission. The real ICC existed when Cameron wrote the movie, but ceased to exist in the real world in 1996.
You assumed Burke's division actively tried to do illegal things like get stuff past ICC quarantine, as opposed to that being a one-off play on Burke's part.
You assumed that regular ship's logs are uploaded somewhere and that others (who?) have ready access to them.
Your entire final paragraph is one big assumption of a chain of events that don't exist, right from the first sentence ("W-Y sent Burke..."), which chains off the other assumption that the broader Company knew about Ripley's inquest or flight logs and somehow specifically directed a Marine response because they knew Aliens exist.

Like the flaws in this house-of-cards is staggering.

All this on top of having the gall to cite ancillary sources without checking if they actually support your point, and then casually ignoring the data that doesn't. Like, lmao. ROFL, even. El Oh El.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 01:50:09 AM

---

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:59:59 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 12:58:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

You mean, "Er, yes."

I don't, but I like your effort

You mean, "Er, yes," because my point is that Ash was an android given orders.

Your "point" seemed to be that both Burke and Ash did not work alone, to which: "Er, no."

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 20, 2023, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 19, 2023, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PMI'm unsure of the relevance of this information.

It shows that neither was working alone, i.e., working for themselves.

Er, no.

Ash wasn't, because he was an android given orders.

Burke, we've already spoken about. Not doing this dance again.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/a385d920bb519301ca05f303b649052e/c342a8fb8d125643-cc/s540x810/c98cb2c9e73d1a7fbbc560f33fab9ffde94ed6ce.gifv)

Is this the new egg on the Sulaco thread

Quote from: Highland on Dec 21, 2023, 12:43:31 AMIs this the new egg on the Sulaco thread

Why? Is Ralfy arguing in that one too?

The discussion needs a poll!

Quote from: Prez on Dec 21, 2023, 03:36:00 AMThe discussion needs a poll!

Done.  I guess we'll find out if ralfy is the voice of a silent majority.

It's more logical to see the content of the movie and of authorized works, and what the writer, Cameron, said.

Which is what I did.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 21, 2023, 01:16:31 AM

Quote from: Highland on Dec 21, 2023, 12:43:31 AMIs this the new egg on the Sulaco thread

Why? Is Ralfy arguing in that one too?

No I jut see the question and the page count  :laugh:

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 21, 2023, 06:37:41 AMIt's more logical to see the content of the movie and of authorized works, and what the writer, Cameron, said.

Which is what I did.

Your "logic" is insanely flimsy and full of holes, and you haven't provided any quotes from Cameron.

Never mind that other "authorized works" say you're wrong.

Maybe we find out in the new comic?
I hope I didn't misunderstand that it's actually coming out from Marvel and isn't some fan invention.

Quote from: Highland on Dec 21, 2023, 12:43:31 AMIs this the new egg on the Sulaco thread

Not until we arrive on a consensus about whether Bishop II is an android or a human.

He keeps saying he is using what Cameron says and yet not quoting anything! And regardless Cameron actually says the opposite to what he 'believes' and deliberately constructs the movie to spoon feed to us that Burke is working alone.

It's utter madness on Ralphy's part.

The real question should be is Ralphy working alone?

If not we're uberfu*ked

If Hicks is looking for an idea for a podcast, he should round up all the Banger question threads over the years and make an Episode out of it  8)  :laugh:

Quote from: Jonjamess on Dec 21, 2023, 02:34:27 PMHe keeps saying he is using what Cameron says and yet not quoting anything! And regardless Cameron actually says the opposite to what he 'believes' and deliberately constructs the movie to spoon feed to us that Burke is working alone.

It's utter madness on Ralphy's part.

I don't think it can be quoted because according to the wiki it's Cameron's audio commentary from the DVD.

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke#cite_note-A2-3

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#cite_note-A2-2

QuoteJames Cameron (writer and director). Aliens (1986), 20th Century Fox [DVD].

The other points given in the wiki entries refer to the W-Y Report, the book about the ACM, and Foster's book.

Quote from: Prez on Dec 21, 2023, 10:05:25 PMThe real question should be is Ralphy working alone?

FWIW, I refer to the AVP wiki, which in turn refers to Cameron's commentary and a couple of authorized books, so I guess I'm not working alone. LOL.

Kidding aside, this is a simple issue and can be addressed using common sense, but I don't think that works when one sees Burke and others as cartoon villains.

Still not seeing a single "no" vote.  Come on, ralfy, you can't allow it to be unanimous.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 22, 2023, 12:34:12 AM

Quote from: Jonjamess on Dec 21, 2023, 02:34:27 PMHe keeps saying he is using what Cameron says and yet not quoting anything! And regardless Cameron actually says the opposite to what he 'believes' and deliberately constructs the movie to spoon feed to us that Burke is working alone.

It's utter madness on Ralphy's part.

I don't think it can be quoted because according to the wiki it's Cameron's audio commentary from the DVD.

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke#cite_note-A2-3

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#cite_note-A2-2

QuoteJames Cameron (writer and director). Aliens (1986), 20th Century Fox [DVD].

The other points given in the wiki entries refer to the W-Y Report, the book about the ACM, and Foster's book.

Quote from: Prez on Dec 21, 2023, 10:05:25 PMThe real question should be is Ralphy working alone?

FWIW, I refer to the AVP wiki, which in turn refers to Cameron's commentary and a couple of authorized books, so I guess I'm not working alone. LOL.

Kidding aside, this is a simple issue and can be addressed using common sense, but I don't think that works when one sees Burke and others as cartoon villains.

So you don't have any quotes from Cameron and won't bother doing the homework to get any, got it.

Also "common sense" left the building a long time ago.

As proud as I am of our wiki and the work our editors have done, information does change and so does the canonicity of it. Just something to be aware of when using it as a reference.

I'm not sure what the official status of the WY report is but generally speaking, the movie novels are secondary to movie continuity, though they are a good read that does sometimes add something different.  ;D

If you want to try and use the cameron commentary, I would suggest looking for timestamps on where he said it, that way we can check it out.

ralfy is this the commentary?



using:

./yt-dlp                                                                      --write-auto-sub                  --skip-download                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM


i downloaded a  .vtt file.

using gedit in ubuntu linux    pressing ctr + f  searched for "burke".

google drivelink for vtt file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d65318J5WpSvuP1ubv0AdxMuj-btYSli/view?usp=sharing





i find 12 entries for "burke".

00:23:16.320 to 0:23:21.120

and

01:22:41.940 to 01:22:51.420

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 12:02:33 PMralfy is this the commentary?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM
using:

./yt-dlp                                                                      --write-auto-sub                  --skip-download                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM


i downloaded a  .vvt file.

using gedit in ubuntu linux    pressing ctr + f  searched for "burke".

google drivelink for vvt file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d65318J5WpSvuP1ubv0AdxMuj-btYSli/view?usp=sharing

 



i find 12 entries for "burke".

00:23:16.320 to 0:23:21.120

and

01:22:41.940 to 01:22:51.420

Yes but does Cameron say he wasn't working alone?

Pre ordered!

(https://i.imgur.com/6H2yvh0.jpg)

Quote from: Jonjamess on Dec 22, 2023, 06:32:04 PM

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 12:02:33 PMralfy is this the commentary?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM
using:

./yt-dlp                                                                      --write-auto-sub                  --skip-download                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM


i downloaded a  .vvt file.

using gedit in ubuntu linux    pressing ctr + f  searched for "burke".

google drivelink for vvt file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d65318J5WpSvuP1ubv0AdxMuj-btYSli/view?usp=sharing

 



i find 12 entries for "burke".

00:23:16.320 to 0:23:21.120

and

01:22:41.940 to 01:22:51.420

Yes but does Cameron say he wasn't working alone?

i was hoping ralfy could indicate if this is the commentary he was refering to. i ll have a quick listen anyway.

Why does Burke look like Charlie Sheen in that pic?

listened roughly 2 min on both sides of the 2 time sections i indicated. nope. nothing there.

i d be happy if someone fact checked me.

ralfy some feedback would be nice.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 22, 2023, 06:57:37 PMWhy does Burke look like Charlie Sheen in that pic?

'Cause he's WINNING! 😂

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 07:05:21 PMlistened roughly 2 min on both sides of the 2 time sections i indicated. nope. nothing there.

i d be happy if someone fact checked me.

ralfy some feedback would be nice.

I could watch it all and see! I've listened to the audio commentary before several times but while I don't remember anything indicating Burke working with higher ups its been so long I'd have to listen again to be sure.

I'm pretty sure Cameron discusses Burke in a way that he's a snake and out for personal gains but again I'm clutching at straws I'd have to actually listen to it again.

Regardless the story only works if Burke is working alone. Because you can't explain the 57 year time gap otherwise that Cameron deliberately writes into the story. You can't say the Colony was built there on purpose because it had been there for 20 years maybe (they say decades) before Ripley shows up. And you can't say they knew the Derelict was there and built the Colony on purpose but they didn't know exactly where the Derelict was, because by planetoid sizes LV-426 is tiny and even if they couldn't detect it with sensors (hard to believe when they can colonise planets and make air breathable) then you'd assume in "decades" they could have found it the old fashioned way!

And thirdly you can't say he wasn't working alone because then why did they send a 3rd party out to the Colony once communications are lost and the grid reference is investigated? If they were so desperate for the Alien all these years (as a company) they would have immediately put 2 and 2 together and be sending their own people and trying to keep Governmental organisations and divisions like Colonial Marines as far far away as possible from their Colony!

agreed

---

@ 32:55 cameron says:

"he (bishop) is totally playing it on the square the entire way through the film  "

which would seem to indicate that bishop even though obeying burke and keeping the face huggers in stasis (for the return trip) is doing so believing that the matter will be reported to icc quarantine.

and not hiding it because he was working under orders from burke or someone higher  up to do specifically that.

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 07:05:21 PMlistened roughly 2 min on both sides of the 2 time sections i indicated. nope. nothing there.

i d be happy if someone fact checked me.

ralfy some feedback would be nice.

Ralfy not doing the legwork and just assuming a source says what he wants it to say because of a nebulous fan wiki would be extremely on-brand.

Ralfy saying he can't actually source quotes from a commentary is pretty wack. Like, you listen to the audio commentary, you transcribe what the person says, and you provide a time stamp.

Straight lollin' over here

---

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 22, 2023, 10:08:31 AMI'm not sure what the official status of the WY report is but generally speaking, the movie novels are secondary to movie continuity, though they are a good read that does sometimes add something different.  ;D

That's the best part, even if he chooses to cite the WYR, it still says he's wrong.

Edit— a couple pages back Ralfy said this:

QuoteIt apparently states, among other things, that Burke was sending reports to the company about his plans to have Ripley and Newt exposed to the facehuggers, as well as Lambert on breaking quarantine.

"It apparently states" implies that he didn't actually read it (and believe me, I'd love to see a page number so I could get better context). But the thing is that doesn't even make sense on its face - he only came up with the idea to impregnate Ripley and Newt on the fly after Ripley called him out and said she wasn't onboard with his scheme and pointed out that he couldn't get the facehuggers through quarantine. As in, he came up with the plan when he was stuck on a planet with a downed transmitter and no way to communicate with the Company.
And even if, by some miracle, such a communication did exist, "Burke tells others about his scheme" doesn't mean he didn't implement his plan on his own, unilaterally.

What a shitshow lmao

"But the thing is that doesn't even make sense on its face - he only came up with the idea to impregnate Ripley and Newt on the fly after Ripley called him out and said she wasn't onboard with his scheme and pointed out that he couldn't get the facehuggers through quarantine. As in, he came up with the plan when he was stuck on a planet with a downed transmitter and no way to communicate with the Company."

this

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 01:50:09 AMAlso, I think you're referring to "spheres".

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Aliens:_Music_of_the_Spears

I did ralfy's homework for him, the bit he's referring to is on page 119. Here's what it says:

QuoteThere's no question, we are not going to get one of the living specimens through ICC [quarantine]. I doubt they'd make the trip, anyway, they seem to die pretty fast if they can't do their implantation thing. But here's my thinking - if one or more of the rescue party is implanted, we could keep them in cryosleep until our people could get to them at gateway. It's extremely likely that one or more of the party will be implanted, so make sure we have teams standing by three weeks out, starting today. I mean, I hope it doesn't happen, it would be a tragedy, but we have to be ready.

— Carter J Burke, Director of Special Projects

So it pretty much recaps what Ripley said in the movie, but expands it to include telling someone to prep a team for his return to Earth. Now this doesn't make a lot of sense for reasons stated, but the WYR plays it pretty fast and loose regarding where information comes from in-universe and whether it makes logical sense (it's one of my criticisms of the book).
Also since transit time from LV-426 to earth is 3 weeks (source: SM's timeline site), if Burke wanted teams standing by 3 weeks out then they'd have to have one ready the moment they received his message and then have them sit idly for 3 weeks I guess.

And the quote pretty much does what I said it would - indicates that he came up with the plan on the fly, even if he's telling people his plan after the fact.

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 12:02:33 PMralfy is this the commentary?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM
using:

./yt-dlp                                                                      --write-auto-sub                  --skip-download                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM


i downloaded a  .vtt file.

using gedit in ubuntu linux    pressing ctr + f  searched for "burke".

google drivelink for vtt file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d65318J5WpSvuP1ubv0AdxMuj-btYSli/view?usp=sharing





i find 12 entries for "burke".

00:23:16.320 to 0:23:21.120

and

01:22:41.940 to 01:22:51.420

I think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

QuoteIn the menus for the Alien Collector's Edition sets revealed more information on Weyland-Yutani, such as their divisions and office branches.

That might explain why the same point was made in this article from 2014:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion

QuoteBut Weyland-Yutani keeps its secrets, and whatever revelations the company got out of the events in Alien were suppressed, or at least held very, very closely. Even Carter Burke, the unctuous Special Projects Director of Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division, appears skeptical of Ripley's story (though he believes it enough to send a team of wildcatters out to the reported coordinates of the Engineer derelict, thereby causing the death of all but one of the Hadley's Hope colonists).

Meanwhile, the same wiki entry shared above refers to Cameron's views, summarized here and revealed in the commentary that you shared:

QuoteWeyland-Yutani's possible affiliation with the Colonial Marines can go back further to James Cameron's Aliens in which Burke accompanied the Marines on their mission to Hadley's Hope to which Cameron clarified that this was meant to invoke the conspiracy of America's involvement in Vietnam being for purely corporate interests.

That is, from the 17:00 mark onward, the following are mentioned:, i.e., the concept of the "evil corporation," Cameron being a child of the 1960s, the Vietnam war and protecting American business interests, the corporation that operates like the Dutch East India Company in India, i.e., tasked with forming colonies, the Colonial Marines essentially working for the businesses forming colonies (hence, "Colonial") that would in turn bring back riches from what was exploited, the Marines having a separate chain of command but may receive "strong recommendations" from Burke who works for W-Y.

Cameron even states that in the past he didn't know much about corporations, thinking that they were simply "big, shadowy [entities]," but because of what happened in Bhopal and others he realized that what he depicted in the movie also takes place in reality: corporations taking advantage of their own personnel, government agencies that work for them, like the military, and innocent locals (in place of that, the dependents that accompanied their personnel in the colony; also, see the 15:00 mark).

To recap, there's also Burke's business card, which refers to his Division in the company, then according to a second wiki DVD menu features in one edition (and not from an audio commentary), and finally the Weyland-Yutani Report which according to the wiki

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Alien:_The_Weyland-Yutani_Report

contains the ff.

QuoteCommuniqué from Burke to Weyland-Yutani regarding his plans for impregnating Ripley and Newt

The implication, and following the point raised by the OP in another thread that was eventually locked, is that Burke isn't much about a cartoon villain working alone as part of a corporation--Weyland-Yutani--operating in the same way as the Dutch East India Company, the defense industry during the Vietnam War, and multinational corporations that exploit others and leave problems like environmental disasters leading to many deaths, as what happened in Bhopal (and that happened only two years before Aliens came out).

In short, Cameron's intention is to show that Weyland-Yutani was actively involved in this movie, while the first and third movies showed the same, with the company sacrificing its personnel in the first and ordering the prisoners not to destroy the creature in the third. Not only that, but it turns out that Cameron wanted to express the view that the USCMS is equivalent to the USMC, the US in USCMS equivalent to the US of 1986 (which is why the OP in the other thread shared a video referring to the movie and the Reagan era), and W-Y is equivalent to the various profit-making multinational corporations that profited from war in places like Vietnam and cheap labor and environmental lapses in places like India. The only difference is that in place of Vietnamese and Indians victimized we have W-Y personnel and their dependents killed or harmed, and in place of the Viet Cong we have the aliens. The latter also explains why early commentaries drew parallels between this movie and arrogant American soldiers who, even with extensive firepower, still got their "asses kicked" in Vietnam, but with the Vietnamese experiencing tremendous losses (like waves of aliens heading for the sentry guns).

If Cameron wanted to show WY was actively involved he wouldn't have had Burke explicitly state everything was his doing.

Burke couldn't have sent any comminiques from the colony; the transmitter was down. The WY Report is a glorified coffee table book, not a real resource.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 22, 2023, 10:08:31 AMAs proud as I am of our wiki and the work our editors have done, information does change and so does the canonicity of it. Just something to be aware of when using it as a reference.

I'm not sure what the official status of the WY report is but generally speaking, the movie novels are secondary to movie continuity, though they are a good read that does sometimes add something different.  ;D

If you want to try and use the cameron commentary, I would suggest looking for timestamps on where he said it, that way we can check it out.

this

afaics cameron doesnt allude to burke working along with someone else.

sorry for my mistake

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 08:16:38 PMagreed

---

@ 32:55 cameron says:

"he (bishop) is totally playing it on the square the entire way through the film  "

which would seem to indicate that bishop even though obeying burke and keeping the face huggers in stasis (for the return trip) is doing so believing that the matter will be reported to icc quarantine.

and not hiding it because he was working under orders from burke or someone higher  up to do specifically that.

My understanding is that the ICC would not allow them for the return trip because they would be considered dangerous organisms, and thus be impounded.

Instead of explaining that to Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke, who ordered Bishop. That means Bishop merely follows orders.

The weird thing is that it was only at that point that Ripley tells Burke that she found out about Burke's orders to the colony manager. When did she discover it, and why didn't she inform the Marines about that, including Bishop?

Finally, why didn't she tell the Marines about Burke ordering Bishop about the facehuggers?

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:46:44 AM

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 12:02:33 PMralfy is this the commentary?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM
using:

./yt-dlp                                                                      --write-auto-sub                  --skip-download                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3crXw8fhM


i downloaded a  .vtt file.

using gedit in ubuntu linux    pressing ctr + f  searched for "burke".

google drivelink for vtt file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d65318J5WpSvuP1ubv0AdxMuj-btYSli/view?usp=sharing





i find 12 entries for "burke".

00:23:16.320 to 0:23:21.120

and

01:22:41.940 to 01:22:51.420

I think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

QuoteIn the menus for the Alien Collector's Edition sets revealed more information on Weyland-Yutani, such as their divisions and office branches.

That might explain why the same point was made in this article from 2014:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion

QuoteBut Weyland-Yutani keeps its secrets, and whatever revelations the company got out of the events in Alien were suppressed, or at least held very, very closely. Even Carter Burke, the unctuous Special Projects Director of Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division, appears skeptical of Ripley's story (though he believes it enough to send a team of wildcatters out to the reported coordinates of the Engineer derelict, thereby causing the death of all but one of the Hadley's Hope colonists).

Meanwhile, the same wiki entry shared above refers to Cameron's views, summarized here and revealed in the commentary that you shared:

QuoteWeyland-Yutani's possible affiliation with the Colonial Marines can go back further to James Cameron's Aliens in which Burke accompanied the Marines on their mission to Hadley's Hope to which Cameron clarified that this was meant to invoke the conspiracy of America's involvement in Vietnam being for purely corporate interests.

That is, from the 17:00 mark onward, the following are mentioned:, i.e., the concept of the "evil corporation," Cameron being a child of the 1960s, the Vietnam war and protecting American business interests, the corporation that operates like the Dutch East India Company in India, i.e., tasked with forming colonies, the Colonial Marines essentially working for the businesses forming colonies (hence, "Colonial") that would in turn bring back riches from what was exploited, the Marines having a separate chain of command but may receive "strong recommendations" from Burke who works for W-Y.

Cameron even states that in the past he didn't know much about corporations, thinking that they were simply "big, shadowy [entities]," but because of what happened in Bhopal and others he realized that what he depicted in the movie also takes place in reality: corporations taking advantage of their own personnel, government agencies that work for them, like the military, and innocent locals (in place of that, the dependents that accompanied their personnel in the colony; also, see the 15:00 mark).

To recap, there's also Burke's business card, which refers to his Division in the company, then according to a second wiki DVD menu features in one edition (and not from an audio commentary), and finally the Weyland-Yutani Report which according to the wiki

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Alien:_The_Weyland-Yutani_Report

contains the ff.

QuoteCommuniqué from Burke to Weyland-Yutani regarding his plans for impregnating Ripley and Newt

The implication, and following the point raised by the OP in another thread that was eventually locked, is that Burke isn't much about a cartoon villain working alone as part of a corporation--Weyland-Yutani--operating in the same way as the Dutch East India Company, the defense industry during the Vietnam War, and multinational corporations that exploit others and leave problems like environmental disasters leading to many deaths, as what happened in Bhopal (and that happened only two years before Aliens came out).

In short, Cameron's intention is to show that Weyland-Yutani was actively involved in this movie, while the first and third movies showed the same, with the company sacrificing its personnel in the first and ordering the prisoners not to destroy the creature in the third. Not only that, but it turns out that Cameron wanted to express the view that the USCMS is equivalent to the USMC, the US in USCMS equivalent to the US of 1986 (which is why the OP in the other thread shared a video referring to the movie and the Reagan era), and W-Y is equivalent to the various profit-making multinational corporations that profited from war in places like Vietnam and cheap labor and environmental lapses in places like India. The only difference is that in place of Vietnamese and Indians victimized we have W-Y personnel and their dependents killed or harmed, and in place of the Viet Cong we have the aliens. The latter also explains why early commentaries drew parallels between this movie and arrogant American soldiers who, even with extensive firepower, still got their "asses kicked" in Vietnam, but with the Vietnamese experiencing tremendous losses (like waves of aliens heading for the sentry guns).

Goddamn that's a lot of words to say essentially nothing.

Like no seriously, not a single thing you wrote points towards Burke not working alone, but it does demonstrate that you're not willing to do your own homework.

Also Cameron's intention was that Burke worked alone, which is why Burke is shown masterminding the plan every step of the way.

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 09:30:55 PM"But the thing is that doesn't even make sense on its face - he only came up with the idea to impregnate Ripley and Newt on the fly after Ripley called him out and said she wasn't onboard with his scheme and pointed out that he couldn't get the facehuggers through quarantine. As in, he came up with the plan when he was stuck on a planet with a downed transmitter and no way to communicate with the Company."

this

From what I remember, it took several days for transmissions from the colony to be received by W-Y, and vice versa, which meant that he had to figure out by himself how to have the facehuggers sent back to the company labs, and from which the bio-weapons division and others could monetize.

Some more odd points:

The first thing that the squad would have done, after seeing what happened to the colony, is to at least repair the transmitter, or set up another (with a backup) to be sent to the one on the Sulaco, which would have acted as a relay, and then transmit findings to W-Y and even the USCMS about finding the facehuggers, one survivor, etc. before investigating what turned out to be the nest.

They would have investigated the colony logs and found out what happened, which is probably how Ripley found out about instructions from Burke to the colony manager. Given the point that they managed to capture several living and dead facehuggers, then they must have had enough time to transmit messages to W-Y, if not multiple distress messages to W-Y, ECA, the USCMS, etc.

W-Y was likely rushing to acquire the organisms before the ICC and ECA, which were also in the hearing, realized that dangerous organisms were involved, and thus order quarantine and even a lockdown. At the same time, and as explained in the other thread, Burke told Ripley that W-Y only had mineral rights on the rock which they received in exchange for paying for colony facilities, which means ownership of the derelict ship and its contents was not secure; the feds could take control of it themselves or award it to another company.

The Marines would have enforced that quarantine, if not a lockdown, as it's also operating as a law enforcement body in colonies. What's odd, though, is that Bishop, who's supposed to be working for the Marines, was also following orders from Burke, who's not part of authorities but of a company which owns everything in the colony, including the facehuggers. That means what Cameron said in the commentary makes sense: that by virtue of being "colonial" security the Marines were tasked to protect colonies that were essentially owned by W-Y, and since even their weapons, etc., that they used came from the same W-Y, then the equivalent of a military industrial complex is in place, with military working for industry.

---

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 22, 2023, 09:58:42 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 01:50:09 AMAlso, I think you're referring to "spheres".

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Aliens:_Music_of_the_Spears

I was thinking of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_universalis

because you referred to music.

---

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 23, 2023, 03:13:10 AM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 22, 2023, 10:08:31 AMAs proud as I am of our wiki and the work our editors have done, information does change and so does the canonicity of it. Just something to be aware of when using it as a reference.

I'm not sure what the official status of the WY report is but generally speaking, the movie novels are secondary to movie continuity, though they are a good read that does sometimes add something different.  ;D

If you want to try and use the cameron commentary, I would suggest looking for timestamps on where he said it, that way we can check it out.

this

afaics cameron doesnt allude to burke working along with someone else.

sorry for my mistake

In the commentary, he focused not on Burke but on "evil corporations." The implication is that far from the idea of a cartoon villain working alone we have an evil corporation with personnel working for it.

To make matters worse for those still obsessed with cartoons, Cameron connected the same corporations with the military and things like colonialism, neocolonialism, the Vietnam war, and the military industrial complex.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:48:05 AM

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 22, 2023, 09:30:55 PM"But the thing is that doesn't even make sense on its face - he only came up with the idea to impregnate Ripley and Newt on the fly after Ripley called him out and said she wasn't onboard with his scheme and pointed out that he couldn't get the facehuggers through quarantine. As in, he came up with the plan when he was stuck on a planet with a downed transmitter and no way to communicate with the Company."

this

From what I remember, it took several days for transmissions from the colony to be received by W-Y, and vice versa, which meant that he had to figure out by himself how to have the facehuggers sent back to the company labs, and from which the bio-weapons division and others could monetize.

Some more odd points:

The first thing that the squad would have done, after seeing what happened to the colony, is to at least repair the transmitter, or set up another (with a backup) to be sent to the one on the Sulaco, which would have acted as a relay, and then transmit findings to W-Y and even the USCMS about finding the facehuggers, one survivor, etc. before investigating what turned out to be the nest.

They would have investigated the colony logs and found out what happened, which is probably how Ripley found out about instructions from Burke to the colony manager. Given the point that they managed to capture several living and dead facehuggers, then they must have had enough time to transmit messages to W-Y, if not multiple distress messages to W-Y, ECA, the USCMS, etc.

W-Y was likely rushing to acquire the organisms before the ICC and ECA, which were also in the hearing, realized that dangerous organisms were involved, and thus order quarantine and even a lockdown. At the same time, and as explained in the other thread, Burke told Ripley that W-Y only had mineral rights on the rock which they received in exchange for paying for colony facilities, which means ownership of the derelict ship and its contents was not secure; the feds could take control of it themselves or award it to another company.

The Marines would have enforced that quarantine, if not a lockdown, as it's also operating as a law enforcement body in colonies. What's odd, though, is that Bishop, who's supposed to be working for the Marines, was also following orders from Burke, who's not part of authorities but of a company which owns everything in the colony, including the facehuggers. That means what Cameron said in the commentary makes sense: that by virtue of being "colonial" security the Marines were tasked to protect colonies that were essentially owned by W-Y, and since even their weapons, etc., that they used came from the same W-Y, then the equivalent of a military industrial complex is in place, with military working for industry.

I'm having trouble seeing what this weird fan fiction hypothetical has to do with anything.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:48:05 AM

---

Quote from: Stitch on Dec 22, 2023, 09:58:42 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 20, 2023, 01:50:09 AMAlso, I think you're referring to "spheres".

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Aliens:_Music_of_the_Spears

I was thinking of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_universalis

because you referred to music.

He knew what he was referring to, because he made the original post. You're the one who missed the reference.

---

Also you cited the Alienanthology wiki, which says the following:

QuoteWeyland-Yutani sent the USCM to investigate as well as sending Ripley to assist the Marines in the mission and Burke who was given a secret objective to ensure the capture of a Xenomorph specimen.

This is false - WY did not send the Sulaco, it went as part of a routine colonial response independent of WY, Burke was just brought along as an advisor and corporate rep. The wording of that passage also implies that the Company already knew there were Aliens there, when the movie does not indicate this.

I should probably take the initiative and edit that wiki. Maybe when I'm not so sick with the flu.

Additional points to consider given this article:

https://screenrant.com/alien-movies-weyland-yutani-corporation-history-explained/

QuoteBased on context clues through the Alien film series and extended media, it's clear that nearly all of Weyland-Yutani's employees are aware of the fact that the company is highly corrupt, routinely bribing inspectors rather than adhere to safety protocols. As such, some time prior to 2122 Weyland-Yutani detected a signal being broadcast from the derelict on LV-426, which they translated and discovered it to be a warning about the deadly Xenomorph XX121.


Weyland-Yutani would then dispatch the USCSS Nostromo to investigate the signal, without informing the crew of the true reason behind their mission. This mission leads to the first human contact with the xenomorph in Alien, and the death of the entire crew with the exception of Ellen Ripley and Jones the cat. The incident and the existence of the xenomorph was then covered up by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, and the beacon was later deactivated by the crew of the USCSS Anesidora in Alien: Isolation.

The last point runs contrary to Cameron's point about the beacon malfunctioning:

http://www.alienscollection.com/jamescameron.html

QuoteBriggs' next problem was "Why do the colonists not pick up the derelict SOS?" by which I assume he is referring to the acoustic beacon broadcasting a "warning." As some readers may know, scenes were filmed but cut from the final release version of the film which depicted the discovery of the derelict by a mom-and-pop geological survey (i.e.: prospecting) team. As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer. When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a rock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational.

It also counters the earlier view, and made before the prequels came out, that the special order was made for anything that could be monetized in general, and not just alien organisms.

In addition,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937#History

QuoteThe 900 series of special corporate orders were introduced by Weyland Corp in 2095 in response to the Prometheus expedition, when it was realized the actions of human crew members could potentially deny the company opportunities to acquire extraterrestrial technologies or biological specimens.[1] The orders ensure that any synthetic crew member(s) would prioritize the recovery of alien samples over any other considerations. While the orders themselves remained highly classified due to their potential implications, a clause requiring commercial crews to investigate any possible intelligent alien life — thereby increasing the chances of bringing them into situations where the orders would be activated — were added to company contracts in 2101.[1] The Weyland-Yutani Corporation continued to implement such special orders following its formation in 2099.

There's also a hint about the company knowing about the organism before the first movie, as seen in one quote from Ripley from the third movie, and shared here:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Divisions

Quote"When they first heard about this thing, it was crew expendable. The next time they sent in Marines; they were expendable too. What makes you think they're gonna care about a bunch of lifers who found God at the ass-end of space? You really think they're going to let you interfere with their plans for this thing? They think we're crud, and they don't give a f*** about one friend of yours that's died. Not one."

    ―Ripley to the inmates on Fiorina 161, regarding Weyland-Yutani's Xenomorph capture ethics (from Alien3)

The implication is that the company allowed for personnel to be expendable in the first movie after they heard about such organisms, with that explained in the prequels.

One could argue that she meant that the company would have been the crew expendable for any reason, but presumably, a bio-weapons division described in the same wiki would be formed to exploit such finds, and the same division is mentioned by Burke in the second movie, which means it had already been in place before the expedition started. Meanwhile, as mentioned earlier, Burke's business card refers to his own division.

That means that it doesn't make sense to argue that the company forgot or didn't care about such organisms, and because of that Burke was working alone, or that Burke was planning to use the Marines and Ripley, and then somehow "rent" the company labs and profit solely by developing bio-weapons from the organisms. It's very clear that he was working as an employee of W-Y.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 04:17:38 AMAdditional points to consider given this article:

https://screenrant.com/alien-movies-weyland-yutani-corporation-history-explained/

QuoteBased on context clues through the Alien film series and extended media, it's clear that nearly all of Weyland-Yutani's employees are aware of the fact that the company is highly corrupt, routinely bribing inspectors rather than adhere to safety protocols. As such, some time prior to 2122 Weyland-Yutani detected a signal being broadcast from the derelict on LV-426, which they translated and discovered it to be a warning about the deadly Xenomorph XX121.


Weyland-Yutani would then dispatch the USCSS Nostromo to investigate the signal, without informing the crew of the true reason behind their mission. This mission leads to the first human contact with the xenomorph in Alien, and the death of the entire crew with the exception of Ellen Ripley and Jones the cat. The incident and the existence of the xenomorph was then covered up by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, and the beacon was later deactivated by the crew of the USCSS Anesidora in Alien: Isolation.

The last point runs contrary to Cameron's point about the beacon malfunctioning:

http://www.alienscollection.com/jamescameron.html

QuoteBriggs' next problem was "Why do the colonists not pick up the derelict SOS?" by which I assume he is referring to the acoustic beacon broadcasting a "warning." As some readers may know, scenes were filmed but cut from the final release version of the film which depicted the discovery of the derelict by a mom-and-pop geological survey (i.e.: prospecting) team. As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer. When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a rock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational.

It also counters the earlier view, and made before the prequels came out, that the special order was made for anything that could be monetized in general, and not just alien organisms.

In addition,

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Order_937#History

QuoteThe 900 series of special corporate orders were introduced by Weyland Corp in 2095 in response to the Prometheus expedition, when it was realized the actions of human crew members could potentially deny the company opportunities to acquire extraterrestrial technologies or biological specimens.[1] The orders ensure that any synthetic crew member(s) would prioritize the recovery of alien samples over any other considerations. While the orders themselves remained highly classified due to their potential implications, a clause requiring commercial crews to investigate any possible intelligent alien life — thereby increasing the chances of bringing them into situations where the orders would be activated — were added to company contracts in 2101.[1] The Weyland-Yutani Corporation continued to implement such special orders following its formation in 2099.

There's also a hint about the company knowing about the organism before the first movie, as seen in one quote from Ripley from the third movie, and shared here:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#Divisions

Quote"When they first heard about this thing, it was crew expendable. The next time they sent in Marines; they were expendable too. What makes you think they're gonna care about a bunch of lifers who found God at the ass-end of space? You really think they're going to let you interfere with their plans for this thing? They think we're crud, and they don't give a f*** about one friend of yours that's died. Not one."

    ―Ripley to the inmates on Fiorina 161, regarding Weyland-Yutani's Xenomorph capture ethics (from Alien3)

The implication is that the company allowed for personnel to be expendable in the first movie after they heard about such organisms, with that explained in the prequels.

One could argue that she meant that the company would have been the crew expendable for any reason, but presumably, a bio-weapons division described in the same wiki would be formed to exploit such finds, and the same division is mentioned by Burke in the second movie, which means it had already been in place before the expedition started. Meanwhile, as mentioned earlier, Burke's business card refers to his own division.

That means that it doesn't make sense to argue that the company forgot or didn't care about such organisms, and because of that Burke was working alone, or that Burke was planning to use the Marines and Ripley, and then somehow "rent" the company labs and profit solely by developing bio-weapons from the organisms. It's very clear that he was working as an employee of W-Y.

We already knew about the different beacon deactivation reasons - there's even a third one (Dallas personally shut off the beacon) from some 'Alien' ancillary media - the comic adaptation or the script or novelization, I can't recall which.

I'm not sure what the point of bringing it up is though.

You're right that Burke was employed by the company, but that doesn't mean he wasn't working alone.

There were no Special Orders in 'Aliens'. Why is that? Because he was keeping the information to himself, therefore the broader Company wouldn't have invoked a Special Order since they weren't aware of Ripley's testimony.

Dallas turning off the beacon is in the script, novel, and I believe the comic.

The Jockey shots of Dallas and Lambert ('Looks like it exploded from inside') replaced the beacon console shots and Dallas turning it off.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:46:44 AMI think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

Now that is a wiki you can't trust, a few times we caught them copy-pasting our pages.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:22:15 AMMy understanding is that the ICC would not allow them for the return trip because they would be considered dangerous organisms, and thus be impounded.

Instead of explaining that to Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke, who ordered Bishop. That means Bishop merely follows orders.

The weird thing is that it was only at that point that Ripley tells Burke that she found out about Burke's orders to the colony manager. When did she discover it, and why didn't she inform the Marines about that, including Bishop?

Finally, why didn't she tell the Marines about Burke ordering Bishop about the facehuggers?

We don't know for sure what she did or what was said or not said between her conversation with Bishop and confront Burke. We do know she did some digging first, hence why she says she "just" checked the logs.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 23, 2023, 01:46:04 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:46:44 AMI think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

Now that is a wiki you can't trust, a few times we caught them copy-pasting our pages.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:22:15 AMMy understanding is that the ICC would not allow them for the return trip because they would be considered dangerous organisms, and thus be impounded.

Instead of explaining that to Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke, who ordered Bishop. That means Bishop merely follows orders.

The weird thing is that it was only at that point that Ripley tells Burke that she found out about Burke's orders to the colony manager. When did she discover it, and why didn't she inform the Marines about that, including Bishop?

Finally, why didn't she tell the Marines about Burke ordering Bishop about the facehuggers?

We don't know for sure what she did or what was said or not said between her conversation with Bishop and confront Burke. We do know she did some digging first, hence why she says she "just" checked the logs.

The best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

From what I remember, she tells Burke about her discovery only after she found out that he gave orders to Bishop, and right before the alarm sounds off, indicating an alien attack. After that was Bishop's report on the venting and the need to send someone to use the colony transmitter to send in the second dropship.

It was during the lull, when Hicks taught her how to use the battle rifle, and when Gorman recovers, that she could have reported on what she discovered about Burke. Probably forgot about it. In any event, it didn't matter after Burke tried to have her and Newt facehugged.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 23, 2023, 01:46:04 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:46:44 AMI think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

Now that is a wiki you can't trust, a few times we caught them copy-pasting our pages.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:22:15 AMMy understanding is that the ICC would not allow them for the return trip because they would be considered dangerous organisms, and thus be impounded.

Instead of explaining that to Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke, who ordered Bishop. That means Bishop merely follows orders.

The weird thing is that it was only at that point that Ripley tells Burke that she found out about Burke's orders to the colony manager. When did she discover it, and why didn't she inform the Marines about that, including Bishop?

Finally, why didn't she tell the Marines about Burke ordering Bishop about the facehuggers?

We don't know for sure what she did or what was said or not said between her conversation with Bishop and confront Burke. We do know she did some digging first, hence why she says she "just" checked the logs.

The best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

From what I remember, she tells Burke about her discovery only after she found out that he gave orders to Bishop, and right before the alarm sounds off, indicating an alien attack. After that was Bishop's report on the venting and the need to send someone to use the colony transmitter to send in the second dropship.

It was during the lull, when Hicks taught her how to use the battle rifle, and when Gorman recovers, that she could have reported on what she discovered about Burke. Probably forgot about it. In any event, it didn't matter after Burke tried to have her and Newt facehugged.

Report what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there. He likely never expected the Colony to be overrun but when it did seem likely that's what had happened he seized an opportunity to go out there for personal gain likely now thinking Ripley's story carried some weight.

How do you know Ripley hadn't told the Marines this? What would they have done? They weren't going to kill him because he sent some WY colonists out to a grid reference. Again he hadn't tried to impregnate Ripley by that point. You have no evidence she hadn't told them all about the logs! But they were busy with other things and likely thought Burke could answer for his actions after they had all escaped and with the proper authorities!

Sending someone out to a grid reference on a whim that some crazy lady lost in space 57 years tells you there's acid bleeding aliens there isn't a crime in itself because NOBODY believed Ripley at the time!!!

this thread is a rabbit hole :laugh:

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@ralfy should bring this to the rpg 👀👉👈

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Burke looks like a cocaine addicted 80's businessman 😅

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Ripley has Burke haircut :'(👉👈

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PMThe best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

If all of your evidence comes down to "a throwaway prop" and "two articles from an unrelated website", I think that means your argument is a bit shit.

Here's a recap for those keeping score:
- writes like a long-winded pretentious academic, but refuses to do his own research
- relies on (sometimes dubious) fan wikis, to the point that the author of said wiki steps in and says "okay yeah we're not always right"
- hinges his argument on a long string of dubious fan-fiction hypothetical assumptions
- leans on "quotes" from James Cameron but doesn't provide any of them
—- when called out on this, says he thinks they're from the audio commentary he hasn't listened to and says he can't quote from it because it's an audio commentary
——- when fact-checked on this, instead says "um maybe it's from the DVD supplements or menu Easter eggs or something" but again refuses to do his own research to corroborate this
- cites ancillary media he hasn't read, but refuses to acknowledge contrary evidence from the same ancillary media
- Puts his detractors on ignore so he can't see when they poke holes in his arguments, but then refers to it as a "debate" based on "logic"

I think I covered everything?

Also he's got Local Trouble, SiL, SM, and me on ignore, so if anyone else wants to quote this so he sees it, that would be fantastic lol

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 23, 2023, 05:33:53 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PMThe best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

If all of your evidence comes down to "a throwaway prop" and "two articles from an unrelated website", I think that means your argument is a bit shit.

Here's a recap for those keeping score:
- writes like a long-winded pretentious academic, but refuses to do his own research
- relies on (sometimes dubious) fan wikis, to the point that the author of said wiki steps in and says "okay yeah we're not always right"
- hinges his argument on a long string of dubious fan-fiction hypothetical assumptions
- leans on "quotes" from James Cameron but doesn't provide any of them
—- when called out on this, says he thinks they're from the audio commentary he hasn't listened to and says he can't quote from it because it's an audio commentary
——- when fact-checked on this, instead says "um maybe it's from the DVD supplements or menu Easter eggs or something" but again refuses to do his own research to corroborate this
- cites ancillary media he hasn't read, but refuses to acknowledge contrary evidence from the same ancillary media
- Puts his detractors on ignore so he can't see when they poke holes in his arguments, but then refers to it as a "debate" based on "logic"

I think I covered everything?

Also he's got Local Trouble, SiL, SM, and me on ignore, so if anyone else wants to quote this so he sees it, that would be fantastic lol

@oduodu you are a gentleman and a scholar

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 23, 2023, 05:33:53 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PMThe best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

If all of your evidence comes down to "a throwaway prop" and "two articles from an unrelated website", I think that means your argument is a bit shit.

Here's a recap for those keeping score:
- writes like a long-winded pretentious academic, but refuses to do his own research
- relies on (sometimes dubious) fan wikis, to the point that the author of said wiki steps in and says "okay yeah we're not always right"
- hinges his argument on a long string of dubious fan-fiction hypothetical assumptions
- leans on "quotes" from James Cameron but doesn't provide any of them
—- when called out on this, says he thinks they're from the audio commentary he hasn't listened to and says he can't quote from it because it's an audio commentary
——- when fact-checked on this, instead says "um maybe it's from the DVD supplements or menu Easter eggs or something" but again refuses to do his own research to corroborate this
- cites ancillary media he hasn't read, but refuses to acknowledge contrary evidence from the same ancillary media
- Puts his detractors on ignore so he can't see when they poke holes in his arguments, but then refers to it as a "debate" based on "logic"

I think I covered everything?

Also he's got Local Trouble, SiL, SM, and me on ignore, so if anyone else wants to quote this so he sees it, that would be fantastic lol

Well we try to be as accurate and as reliable as we can possibly be, which is a far cry from what the wiki was like over a decade ago. We do try and cite our sources  :laugh: But yeah, the nature of a wiki and the ever changing and updating information, lore along with what is currently canon means there can be a lot of contradictions and outdated info.
Such as Hicks being alive via ACM. I think due to the current canon status, he is back to being deceased for example. Well I think we did. I know there was a discussion about it. lol  :P  :laugh:

ty

i  can be an ass sometimes

lol

just dont get what ralfy is trying to do. he just all over the place man

lol

QuoteReport what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there.

Sending the colonists to investigate a potentially deadly lifeform without any kind of warning is quite illegal.  If it wasn't illegal, he wouldn't then try to do other things that are illegal.

I'm no lawyer, but Burke would probably be charged with criminal negligence and/or manslaughter for what he did.  And that was before he unleashed those bonce-clampers on Ripley and Newt.

Negligence at the minimum.

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/z6DN8Ab6Gqjkc/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Jonjamess on Dec 23, 2023, 02:17:10 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 23, 2023, 01:46:04 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:46:44 AMI think the wiki referred to the commentary as a catch-all for DVD extra features because this wiki entry refers to the DVD menu:

https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Divisions

Now that is a wiki you can't trust, a few times we caught them copy-pasting our pages.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 03:22:15 AMMy understanding is that the ICC would not allow them for the return trip because they would be considered dangerous organisms, and thus be impounded.

Instead of explaining that to Bishop, Ripley instead goes to Burke, who ordered Bishop. That means Bishop merely follows orders.

The weird thing is that it was only at that point that Ripley tells Burke that she found out about Burke's orders to the colony manager. When did she discover it, and why didn't she inform the Marines about that, including Bishop?

Finally, why didn't she tell the Marines about Burke ordering Bishop about the facehuggers?

We don't know for sure what she did or what was said or not said between her conversation with Bishop and confront Burke. We do know she did some digging first, hence why she says she "just" checked the logs.

The best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

From what I remember, she tells Burke about her discovery only after she found out that he gave orders to Bishop, and right before the alarm sounds off, indicating an alien attack. After that was Bishop's report on the venting and the need to send someone to use the colony transmitter to send in the second dropship.

It was during the lull, when Hicks taught her how to use the battle rifle, and when Gorman recovers, that she could have reported on what she discovered about Burke. Probably forgot about it. In any event, it didn't matter after Burke tried to have her and Newt facehugged.

Report what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there. He likely never expected the Colony to be overrun but when it did seem likely that's what had happened he seized an opportunity to go out there for personal gain likely now thinking Ripley's story carried some weight.

How do you know Ripley hadn't told the Marines this? What would they have done? They weren't going to kill him because he sent some WY colonists out to a grid reference. Again he hadn't tried to impregnate Ripley by that point. You have no evidence she hadn't told them all about the logs! But they were busy with other things and likely thought Burke could answer for his actions after they had all escaped and with the proper authorities!

Sending someone out to a grid reference on a whim that some crazy lady lost in space 57 years tells you there's acid bleeding aliens there isn't a crime in itself because NOBODY believed Ripley at the time!!!

He was ordering Bishop to prepare dangerous organisms for transport after ordering the colonists to investigate the derelict ship. You can't see either event in isolation, especially after you just got your asses kicked by what you kept thinking didn't exist or was just one creature.

Also, who did Bishop work for? Burke or the Marines?

He works for the Marines, but that doesn't mean he can't be "helpful" if other people ask him to do stuff.

The company deliberately infected colonists to sneak aliens past quarantine.

Burke was under orders to retrieve a live specimen.

It's all here...


Checkmate, Burkers!

The Burkers forgot to vote though >:( 

(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjway.gif)

Quote from: Kel G 426 on Dec 24, 2023, 12:19:12 AMThe company deliberately infected colonists to sneak aliens past quarantine.

Burke was under orders to retrieve a live specimen.

It's all here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGLB3gsfno
Checkmate, Burkers!

Canon.

Also those Hudson and Hicks soundalikes weren't half bad.

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 23, 2023, 05:37:05 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 23, 2023, 05:33:53 PM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 23, 2023, 02:04:28 PMThe best I can use, then, is Burke's business card and two articles mentioned earlier, including one from Wired.

If all of your evidence comes down to "a throwaway prop" and "two articles from an unrelated website", I think that means your argument is a bit shit.

Here's a recap for those keeping score:
- writes like a long-winded pretentious academic, but refuses to do his own research
- relies on (sometimes dubious) fan wikis, to the point that the author of said wiki steps in and says "okay yeah we're not always right"
- hinges his argument on a long string of dubious fan-fiction hypothetical assumptions
- leans on "quotes" from James Cameron but doesn't provide any of them
—- when called out on this, says he thinks they're from the audio commentary he hasn't listened to and says he can't quote from it because it's an audio commentary
——- when fact-checked on this, instead says "um maybe it's from the DVD supplements or menu Easter eggs or something" but again refuses to do his own research to corroborate this
- cites ancillary media he hasn't read, but refuses to acknowledge contrary evidence from the same ancillary media
- Puts his detractors on ignore so he can't see when they poke holes in his arguments, but then refers to it as a "debate" based on "logic"

I think I covered everything?

Also he's got Local Trouble, SiL, SM, and me on ignore, so if anyone else wants to quote this so he sees it, that would be fantastic lol

It's not a "throwaway prop." The business card is from the scene depicted here:

at the 2:29 mark.

There are some stills provided in this link, which was shared in an earlier post:

https://gndn.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/aliens-carter-burkes-business-card/

(https://gndn.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/shot0007a.jpg?w=1024&h=597)

It says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp.
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division
and so on.

I think this is good enough plus Burke's reference to the bio-weapons division making millions from alien organisms. In short, he belongs to a division that supplies finds to the others, and to be monetized by the company. He was obviously not working alone.

Next, the audio commentary doesn't mention these but gives more details on Cameron's intentions. He wanted to depict the idea of the "evil corporation" and saw that in light of the U.S. defense industry and the Vietnam War, multinational corporations and events like the Bhopal disaster, and colonialism and the Dutch East India co.

Given that, I think his intention is not to show that Burke worked alone because the company didn't care or forgot but the opposite: the company was actively working throughout but had to cover up its corruption by doing things covertly. That's where personnel like Burke came along, who, as seen in the movie, ordered the colonists to investigate what could be dangerous organisms, then accompanied Marines who were ordered to rescue "juicy colonists" from a xenomorph, then ordered Bishop to prepare dangerous organisms for transport to company labs and against ICC regulations, convincing Ripley that she would be rich, too, because of the contract between W-Y and the Nostromo crew, plus the bio-weapons division needs such. In short, Cameron was also trying to show that Burke wasn't working alone but for the "evil corporation" W-Y.

Finally, there are two more sources to consider:

The Weyland-Yutani Report states that Burke was transmitting messages to the company, including the plan to expose Ripley and Newt to the facehuggers, and that the company came up with a special order depicted in the first movie because of what happened during the prequels. Can someone confirm this? Also, if this report contains a breakdown of the company divisions, then it can be used in place of the DVD extra feature. Meanwhile, the two pieces of evidence above will have to do.

Alien by Foster, which states that the company sent the Nostromo to LV-426 after partially decoding the distress signal in the first movie:

Quote'Sure.' Ripley smiled humourlessly. 'The Company's drone probes must have picked up the transmission from the derelict. The Nostromo happened to be the next Company vessel scheduled to pass through this spatial quadrant. They put Ash on board to monitor things for them and to make sure we followed something Mother calls Special Order 937.

...

'At the source of the signal,' Ash continued, 'we were to investigate a life form, almost certainly hostile according to what the Company experts distilled from the transmission, and bring it back for observation and Company evaluation of any potential commercial applications. Using discretion, of course.'

Finally, the Report also states that the special order stems from what happened in the prequels. Can someone also confirm this?

---

Quote from: Kel G 426 on Dec 24, 2023, 12:19:12 AMThe company deliberately infected colonists to sneak aliens past quarantine.

Burke was under orders to retrieve a live specimen.

It's all here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGLB3gsfno
Checkmate, Burkers!

Thanks for sharing that. I'm guessing that the game is authorized by the franchise holders, and thus part of the canon.

---

One more thing I forgot to add for the recap:

https://screenrant.com/alien-movies-weyland-yutani-corporation-history-explained/

QuoteWeyland-Yutani would then dispatch the USCSS Nostromo to investigate the signal, without informing the crew of the true reason behind their mission. This mission leads to the first human contact with the xenomorph in Alien, and the death of the entire crew with the exception of Ellen Ripley and Jones the cat. The incident and the existence of the xenomorph was then covered up by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, and the beacon was later deactivated by the crew of the USCSS Anesidora in Alien: Isolation.

The game is authorized by the franchise holders and set between the first and second movies, right? I think it involves not only W-Y but another corporation, the military, etc. What kind of cover-up would have been needed for such so that W-Y would forget or not care about acquiring and monetizing alien organisms? That'd be needed in order to follow the view that for more than 50 years the company had not heard from the Nostromo.

Finally, this can be added to the view that the company didn't know about aliens until the Nostromo investigated the derelict ship vs. what happened in the prequels.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMIt's not a "throwaway prop." The business card is from the scene depicted here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaqCe6jQboAat the 2:29 mark.

There are some stills provided in this link, which was shared in an earlier post:

https://gndn.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/aliens-carter-burkes-business-card/

https://gndn.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/shot0007a.jpg?w=1024&h=597
It says:

Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp.
Carter J. Burke
Special Projects Director
Special Services Division
and so on.

It's actually at the 2:13 mark, and it's on the screen for less than a second and you can barely read it in the movie. By definition it's a throwaway prop.

You're really bad at this lmao.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMI think this is good enough plus Burke's reference to the bio-weapons division making millions from alien organisms. In short, he belongs to a division that supplies finds to the others, and to be monetized by the company. He was obviously not working alone.

Your third sentence does not follow from the other two. The fact that Burke works for a department is not evidence that Burke did not mastermind and execute is plan unilaterally, which is what the movie clearly communicates that he did.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMNext, the audio commentary doesn't mention these but gives more details on Cameron's intentions. He wanted to depict the idea of the "evil corporation" and saw that in light of the U.S. defense industry and the Vietnam War, multinational corporations and events like the Bhopal disaster, and colonialism and the Dutch East India co.

Metaphorically Burke is a personification of "the company", but that doesn't mean that narratively he is not working alone in this instance. The company is already known to be not-great since he has to introduce himself as an "okay guy", and he's meant to be representative of a larger corporate culture problem because he went out of his way to hatch a scheme as fast as he could, because he knew if he didn't act first then someone else would have done it and gotten all the credit.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMGiven that, I think his intention is not to show that Burke worked alone because the company didn't care or forgot but the opposite: the company was actively working throughout but had to cover up its corruption by doing things covertly. That's where personnel like Burke came along, who, as seen in the movie, ordered the colonists to investigate what could be dangerous organisms, then accompanied Marines who were ordered to rescue "juicy colonists" from a xenomorph, then ordered Bishop to prepare dangerous organisms for transport to company labs and against ICC regulations, convincing Ripley that she would be rich, too, because of the contract between W-Y and the Nostromo crew, plus the bio-weapons division needs such. In short, Cameron was also trying to show that Burke wasn't working alone but for the "evil corporation" W-Y.

You're conflating "working for the benefit of a company" with "not acting unilaterally". The first one isn't being disputed. The second one is false; the narrative clearly indicates that the entire scheme and his execution of it was done by Burke alone, even if his intent was to enrich the Company. He was not ordered to do it, nor did he have accomplices aware of the plot working with him.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMFinally, there are two more sources to consider:

The Weyland-Yutani Report states that Burke was transmitting messages to the company, including the plan to expose Ripley and Newt to the facehuggers, and that the company came up with a special order depicted in the first movie because of what happened during the prequels. Can someone confirm this? Also, if this report contains a breakdown of the company divisions, then it can be used in place of the DVD extra feature. Meanwhile, the two pieces of evidence above will have to do.

I already quoted the entire passage a few pages back, and also pointed out a memo on another page from Burke that indicates that he was working alone.

Do your own research lmao, don't say that you think some source says something because of a wiki reference and then expect to crowd-source the research to fact-check you. That's not how "debates" work.

A reminder that you were the one that said there were Cameron quotes, then shifted the goalposts to them being on the commentary, then shifted the goalposts again to them being on the DVD supplementals, and now you're shifting the goalposts *again* to them being in a book you haven't read but you're expecting us to fact-check for you.

Like I said, you're really bad at this lol

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 12:36:48 AMAlien by Foster, which states that the company sent the Nostromo to LV-426 after partially decoding the distress signal in the first movie:

Quote'Sure.' Ripley smiled humourlessly. 'The Company's drone probes must have picked up the transmission from the derelict. The Nostromo happened to be the next Company vessel scheduled to pass through this spatial quadrant. They put Ash on board to monitor things for them and to make sure we followed something Mother calls Special Order 937.

...

'At the source of the signal,' Ash continued, 'we were to investigate a life form, almost certainly hostile according to what the Company experts distilled from the transmission, and bring it back for observation and Company evaluation of any potential commercial applications. Using discretion, of course.'

What page number is that from?

Also that part isn't under dispute and is not relevant to Burke's actions.

Again, you're welcome to believe Burke wasn't working alone. That's a great alternate interpretation, and if it enhances your enjoyment of the movie then thumbs up, go buck-wild. But it's head-canon.

You know, that thing you hate.

I can't help but admire ralfy's utter commitment to his sophistry.  It's really quite breathtaking,

Here's a timeline of events given authorized content, but some not yet verified (*):

The company discovers aliens. (prequels)

Because of what happened, they come up with a special order, etc. (W-Y Report*) (probably not necessary because of Foster's novel)

They partially decode a distress signal picked up by their "drone probes", and based on the special order have the Nostromo sent to unwittingly collect alien organisms, with the synth ensuring such. (Foster's novel)

The events in the first movie take place. Lambert sends a message to the company about the crew breaking quarantine. (W-Y Report*) (that'd be interesting to note because it implies that, realistically, not only the crew but even the ship computer would be sending reports to the company, including even the ship log)

Amanda finds out about the flight recorder, etc. The distress beacon is deactivated. (Isolation game; according to Cameron's article to critics, the beacon was damaged by volcanic activity)

The company forms a Special Services division (Burke's business card) and a bio-weapons division (Burke; second movie) (also, a DVD menu feature*; probably not necessary given the business card and the content of the second movie). There's also one for weapons manufacture supplying the military (Cameron's commentary), terraforming (second movie), and mining (first movie). With bio-weapons and arms manufacturing, reverse-engineering is implicit, together with R&D. Given Burke's work (Alien trilogy game and his business card), then it's implicit that his division provides the material to R&D, which in turn feeds the other divisions.

The second movie takes place.

Burke orders the colony to investigate the derelict ship. (second movie)

The colony makes a medical report on John Marachuk (W-Y Report*; probably not necessary because of facehuggers found in the labs and Bishop referring to reports that they made as they tried to extract them from victims; second movie).

Burke is ordered to accompany Gorman, retrieve alien organisms, etc. (Alien trilogy game)

Burke orders Bishop to prepare the facehuggers to be sent to company labs (second movie) even though Bishop works for the Marines. (ACM Report*)

Burke sends a message to the company about his plan to expose Ripley and Newt to the facehuggers (W-Y Report*)

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 01:58:11 AMBurke is ordered to accompany Gorman, retrieve alien organisms, etc. (Alien trilogy game)

@Xenomrph Your canon policy may have just cost you the war here.

Damn that's a lot of asterisks.

Also you realize the Alien Trilogy game isn't expected to be seriously treated as a source, right? It got posted as a joke.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 24, 2023, 02:01:34 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 01:58:11 AMBurke is ordered to accompany Gorman, retrieve alien organisms, etc. (Alien trilogy game)

@Xenomrph Your canon policy may have just cost you the war here.

Even I never considered it fully canon, but if Ralfy wants to include it in his head canon, he's welcome to.

Also ralfy's timeline doesn't even matter (and much of it is already common knowledge). I'm guessing he wrote it all out just so it can look like he's got the "last word" in the thread even when he's not directly replying to people.

I know the tactic because I used to do it as a teenager.

I just love the fact that Ralfy continuously professes that Burke's card is evidence to support his argument, when anyone with even a *little* common sense must know that 'Special Projects' within a corporation that broadly invested in terraforming, pushing a huge marketing campaign for "Building Better Worlds" could simply range from something as straightforward as interstellar commerce, right up the Alien Universe's equivalent of OCP's Delta City project on terraformed worlds. If he worked for the bio weapons division, he would not be trying to sell it to... the bio weapons division. For that matter, if he were under company orders to retrieve a specimen, he also couldn't sell it to them, since, you know, it'd already belong to them... in fact the whole premise of the colony being infected and everyone killed is due to the fact Burke wanted to keep the company out of it so he had exclusive rights on the derelict;

"What if that ship didn't even exist? You ever think about that? I didn't know! So now if I made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in - administration steps in - and there's no exclusive rights for anybody, nobody wins!"

He was working alone. End of story.

I have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Burke's business card is the new landing location of ralfy's latter-day repertoire.

One of you unblocked lurkers will have to quote Xenomrph's post if you want this spectacle to continue.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 24, 2023, 02:04:16 AMDamn that's a lot of asterisks.

Also you realize the Alien Trilogy game isn't expected to be seriously treated as a source, right? It got posted as a joke.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 24, 2023, 02:01:34 AM

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 01:58:11 AMBurke is ordered to accompany Gorman, retrieve alien organisms, etc. (Alien trilogy game)

@Xenomrph Your canon policy may have just cost you the war here.

Even I never considered it fully canon, but if Ralfy wants to include it in his head canon, he's welcome to.

Also ralfy's timeline doesn't even matter (and much of it is already common knowledge). I'm guessing he wrote it all out just so it can look like he's got the "last word" in the thread even when he's not directly replying to people.

I know the tactic because I used to do it as a teenager.

QuoteBurke is ordered to accompany Gorman, retrieve alien organisms, etc. (Alien trilogy game)

Damn.  That seals it.

Whole planet blows up at the end too.  Pack it in everyone.  Game over.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 24, 2023, 02:06:39 AMI have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Indeed, and it was also mentioned by Burke in the second movie. That plus the prequels and the W-Y Report referring to the special order stemming from the prequels and Foster's novelization reveal that the company knew about the alien after the prequels and formed groups like a bio-weapons division in response to that. It's possible that Burke's division, which is revealed in the business card he gives to Ripley, was formed either before or after the events in the first movie took place, and was tasked with acquiring the organisms to be sent to R&D (i.e., the company labs mentioned by Bishop in the second movie), and in turn to be sent to bio-weapons, etc. (according to Burke in the second movie).

Also, here's something from Alien Theory which refers to the W-Y Report:



and it states that Burke reports to the company that he sent a survey team to the location of the derelict ship but has had no word from it, so he has asked to send an armed response, with Ellen Ripley joining him, and using a Marine team that's experienced because it dealt with parasites in Arctura, led by a lieutenant who's a "team player" and understands what the company wants.

In addition, he mentions that 60 hours has been the longest that they waited before hearing from any of their colonies, which implies that the company is in constant contact with them. Also, the reason why they need to acquire the organism and secure the derelict ship is to obtain first rights to both. Next, he states that he's beginning to believe much of Ripley's story and argues that the company needs to be "fully represented" in the expedition.

AT also refers to Foster's novel, where it states that Burke wants the live facehuggers while Ripley wants them destroyed. Meanwhile, she implies that Bishop can still study them, but needs to destroy them after. She also reminds Bishop that the reason why she wants them destroyed is because even the Marines could not counter the aliens; how does he think that he and the company will do better?

In short, Ripley is a pragmatist, arguing that she doesn't want the company to acquire living organisms because they'd be unprepared to deal with the consequences, just as the Marines got clobbered when they entered the nest. She also adds that if he presists, then she'll tell. But if he has the organisms destroyed, then she won't.

In addition, she's angered that Burke didn't believe her and yet suspected, which is why he had the colonists sent to the derelict ship. That means she blames him not because he sent the colonists but because he didn't believe her. The company could have at least sent a more cautious team and thus not make the same mistakes as the Nostromo crew or the colonists. Thus, she's implicitly giving Burke and the company another chance: if they stop persisting in bringing live organisms back to company labs and come better prepared and more cautious when accessing the derelict ship, then she won't tell.

She asks Burke why he didn't warn them. Burke responds by repeating what she said earlier: he didn't believe her, so why would he warn the colonists? Ripley now raises a new point about the flight recorder: apparently, it was tampered such that the landing location was changed. That was why the van Leuwen and others didn't investigate the matter further. It was the company that did that so that they could investigate the location covertly.

This explains why Burke said that they didn't want to make it a major security situation. ECA, ICC, and others would take over, operations would shut down, and W-Y would lose big time.

Ripley explains to the Marines that the company was only interested in profiting from the find, and that Burke was like the synths: his job was to consider all of them expendable in exchange for bringing back live facehuggers or exposing them to Ripley and Newt. From there, the company would bribe authorities and bring both to company hospitals, etc.

Burke's assistant explains that Burke's plan wasn't a bad one, as the embryos would make up for the loss of the processors.

The company received all these and noted that they should not make the same mistakes as what happened on LV-426.

ralfy fwiw i dont dispell any  notions you have for the sake of it.

but at no time up until he spoke to ripley after she cornered him did he try to get someone to be "in on it" with him as in they actively support his endevour to return a xenomorph to earth while breaking safety protocols while knowing its illegal for the purpose of financial gain.

if she had chosen to work  with him then he  would no longer be working alone.

it as only a few hours previously that he had found out there was an alien creature and believed ripley. nobody conspired with him to return an alien creature to earth because including him beleived there was an alien creature there and ripley was talking through her ass.

the name tag is interesting. i wonder if cameron was the one who decided what was written on it. wonfer what the scripts say.

Here's another video from AT, referring to the Weyland-Yutani Report.


The company controlled over 90 pct of business operations during the time Ripley was gone. They discovered LV-426 but did not discover the derelict ship. It was only with the flight recorder on Ripley's lifeboat did they find it.

Hicks reports to the Marines, and likely also received by the company, that they had done a sweep and reported their findings, including barricades, etc., and the facehuggers at the med lab.

Next, Bishop reports what happened when they encountered the alien hive, the drop ship crashing, etc. (I'm not sure how Bishop knew what happened to the air crew. He probably said in the report that he guessed that they were attacked by aliens.)

Finally, according to Bishop in the third movie, the company had full knowledge of almost everything that happened to the expedition and the Sulaco because "it all goes into the computer [i.e., video feeds, computer logs, etc.] and then gets sent back to them," i.e., W-Y.. In contrast, from the Nostromo they had only Ripley's account and brief reports from the other crew members

---

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 24, 2023, 06:59:35 AMralfy fwiw i dont dispell any  notions you have for the sake of it.

but at no time up until he spoke to ripley after she cornered him did he try to get someone to be "in on it" with him as in they actively support his endevour to return a xenomorph to earth while breaking safety protocols while knowing its illegal for the purpose of financial gain.

if she had chosen to work  with him then he  would no longer be working alone.

AT refers to the WYR which explains how Burke planned the expedition, asking permission from WY to include Ripley in such and an experienced Marine team led by a lieutenant that he knew was a "team player". That means he was not working alone; rather, he was working for WY.

---

AT has another video, referring to the WYR, which explains how WY did not forget and did not care about alien organisms. They had a company statement of interest from the beginning:

They were working with the USM, which promised delivery of data on the xenomorphs. They also hired bounty teams, etc., and saw the value of FTL to travel faster and obtain them.

It's highly likely that the statement was made even before the events of the first movie took place because by that time Ripley was already referring to a bio-weapons division, and the special order was put in place because of what the company experienced in the prequels.

@oduodu doin' the lord's work over here.

And you know, Ralfy's position really makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it at all.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 06:56:58 AM

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 24, 2023, 02:06:39 AMI have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Indeed, and it was also mentioned by Burke in the second movie. That plus the prequels and the W-Y Report referring to the special order stemming from the prequels and Foster's novelization reveal that the company knew about the alien after the prequels and formed groups like a bio-weapons division in response to that. It's possible that Burke's division, which is revealed in the business card he gives to Ripley, was formed either before or after the events in the first movie took place, and was tasked with acquiring the organisms to be sent to R&D (i.e., the company labs mentioned by Bishop in the second movie), and in turn to be sent to bio-weapons, etc. (according to Burke in the second movie).

Also, here's something from Alien Theory which refers to the W-Y Report:

Alien Theory is a trash YouTube channel that you shouldn't be citing, and much of what you wrote out in that long word-salad is fan-fiction head-canon unsupported by any actual sources.

Not to mention nothing you wrote disputes the notion that Burke came up with and enacted his scheme on his own.

Here's a fun challenge: let's see if you can make your case by actually citing specific documents, page numbers, time stamps, you know, actual research. No more "I think this says" or "someone please check on this for me" or relying on fan wikis, YouTube videos, or website articles.

You said you considered this a "debate" based on "logic", maybe you should start acting like it.

Sound good?

Alternately you could just give me what I want and acknowledge that your conclusion is your head-canon (I.e.: your personal interpretation, what you personally choose to believe).

Also I'm still lollin' that you intentionally cited the Alien Trilogy videogame as a real source.

Oh yeah any lurkers who want to emptyquote this post, feel free.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:08:21 AMAT refers to the WYR which explains how Burke planned the expedition, asking permission from WY to include Ripley in such and an experienced Marine team led by a lieutenant that he knew was a "team player". That means he was not working alone; rather, he was working for WY.

I'm going to need a citation on Burke asking permission to bring Ripley along (I doubt AT provides one). Be specific.

Also, once again, Burke working for the Company is not in dispute. However his doing so does not mean his actions in 'Aliens' were not done unilaterally, which is the point you're continually not grasping.

Edit— if AT is citing the statement of intent from the WYR, then that statement was made 200 years after Burke's actions and has no bearing on what they were doing or thinking in 2122 or 2179.

Also a reminder that the WYR is a questionable resource at times and should be treated with critical thinking skills.

the knowledge the company had in alien 3 was different form the knowledge they had in aliens as in how it applies to burke knowing about an xenomorp species.

at the time of the hearing they knew that a spear gun was stuck in the door and that the nostromo set down on lv 426 for reasons unknown.

but not about an alien species. burke as the director of special operations was probably very curious to see what was going on.  hence not getting anyone in on the deal . hence working alone in that regard.   

i assume "burke working alone" refers to specifically on the return of a live xenomorph species to earth should it exist.

at least thats the way i see it.

Many of these points from the WYR, Foster's books, and the prequels explain what happened in the first and second movies and the earlier points I raised earlier, and show that Burke wasn't working alone. They even explain the intro shared earlier from the Alien Trilogy game, which shows the company ordering Burke to have an armed unit join him so that he could acquire alien organisms from the colony.

They also resolve several plot holes in the second movie, such as the reason why the ICC, ECA, and other members of the board did not pursue the matter of investigating the location of the landing site where the derelict ship can be found, and Ripley didn't contest that: W-Y tampered with the flight recorder. Also, they plus what Bishop said in the third movie reveal that the company had full knowledge of almost everything, from Burke's plans to the expedition itself to what happened in the colony to the aftermath, all the way to Hicks signing off.

However, there are still discrepancies, or more arise. For example, the Isolation game explains that the distress beacon was turned off while Cameron states in his Star Log article that it was damaged:

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/james-cameron-responds-to-aliens-critics/

Cameron also reveals some absurd actions by the colonists: even after seeing Jorden with a facehugger, they still decide to enter the derelict ship and get facehugged themselves.

Finally, Burke reports that the last they hear of the colony is the wildcatters being sent to the location. That means for some weird reason the transmitter goes down right after that. Burke and WY receives nothing more from the colony, not even the report on the facehuggers extracted, until Hicks and Bishop report.

:laugh: @AT is always lurking in the shadows, for "inspiration"

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:38:08 AMMany of these points from the WYR, Foster's books, and the prequels explain what happened in the first and second movies and the earlier points I raised earlier, and show that Burke wasn't working alone.

Yeah but they don't show that, for reasons already stated by multiple people multiple times.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:38:08 AMThey also resolve several plot holes in the second movie, such as the reason why the ICC, ECA, and other members of the board did not pursue the matter of investigating the location of the landing site where the derelict ship can be found

We already know why they didn't check it - Van Leuwen spells it out: there have been people on the planet for decades and they never found anything. And everyone (but Burke) thinks Ripley's story is nonsense, so they don't pursue it.

Like the movie literally tells us this, in dialogue.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:38:08 AMand Ripley didn't contest that: W-Y tampered with the flight recorder. Also, they plus what Bishop said in the third movie reveal that the company had full knowledge of almost everything, from Burke's plans to the expedition itself to what happened in the colony to the aftermath, all the way to Hicks signing off.

The context you're missing (and which the Colonial Marines Technical Manual's final chapter illustrates) is *when* they had that knowledge, which was sometime after the events of 'Aliens' (as in, after Burke tried his scheme), possibly even a ways into 'Alien3' when Andrews sends his report to WY regarding the EEV crash.

Also a reminder that the CMTM also indicates that Burke was working alone, which I pointed out many pages ago.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:38:08 AMHowever, there are still discrepancies, or more arise. For example, the Isolation game explains that the distress beacon was turned off while Cameron states in his Star Log article that it was damaged:

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/james-cameron-responds-to-aliens-critics/

This is the second time you've brought up the beacon thing (which is common knowledge) and I'm not sure why.

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 24, 2023, 07:22:41 AMthe knowledge the company had in alien 3 was different form the knowledge they had in aliens as in how it applies to burke knowing about an xenomorp species.

at the time of the hearing they knew that a spear gun was stuck in the door and that the nostromo set down on lv 426 for reasons unknown.

but not about an alien species. burke as the director of special operations was probably very curious to see what was going on.  hence not getting anyone in on the deal . hence working alone in that regard. 

i assume "burke working alone" refers to specifically on the return of a live xenomorph species to earth should it exist.

at least thats the way i see it.

It's more of an aside: when Ripley revives Bishop, he tells her that the company knows everything about what happened to the colony, the expedition, and the Sulaco. That means computers that time automatically sent details from video feeds, electronic logs, etc., to the company.

My understanding is that the point that Burke is working alone involves the claim that the company didn't care about alien organisms, that they forgot about the special order, that they didn't know about the xenomorphs until the Marines encountered them on the colony, and that only Burke cared because he would profit solely from the find. That is, he was presumably working as an independent citizen and not as a company employee, that he could easily rent company labs to study the creatures and even rent bio-weapons facilities to manufacture such, and make large amounts of money in the process, with the company not even minding that.

In contrast, Cameron explains in his commentary that his intention was to depict the idea of evil corporations, and in this case it's W-Y. In addition, the prequels reveal similar, and now works like Foster's novels and the WYR: what we're looking at is an evil corporation and not Dr. Evil.

---

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:46:00 AM:laugh: @AT is always lurking in the shadows, for "inspiration"

More important, sharing some of the content of the Weyland-Yutani Report.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:54:03 AM

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 24, 2023, 07:22:41 AMthe knowledge the company had in alien 3 was different form the knowledge they had in aliens as in how it applies to burke knowing about an xenomorp species.

at the time of the hearing they knew that a spear gun was stuck in the door and that the nostromo set down on lv 426 for reasons unknown.

but not about an alien species. burke as the director of special operations was probably very curious to see what was going on.  hence not getting anyone in on the deal . hence working alone in that regard. 

i assume "burke working alone" refers to specifically on the return of a live xenomorph species to earth should it exist.

at least thats the way i see it.

It's more of an aside: when Ripley revives Bishop, he tells her that the company knows everything about what happened to the colony, the expedition, and the Sulaco. That means computers that time automatically sent details from video feeds, electronic logs, etc., to the company.

This is false - Bishop does not say they knew what happened to the colony, the only knowledge they had was from what the Sulaco uploaded after the fact, because the colony transmitter was down.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:54:03 AMMy understanding is that the point that Burke is working alone involves the claim that the company didn't care about alien organisms, that they forgot about the special order, that they didn't know about the xenomorphs until the Marines encountered them on the colony, and that only Burke cared because he would profit solely from the find. That is, he was presumably working as an independent citizen and not as a company employee, that he could easily rent company labs to study the creatures and even rent bio-weapons facilities to manufacture such, and make large amounts of money in the process, with the company not even minding that.

That isn't what people (or the movie, or ancillary sources) are saying, especially not that "private citizen" bio weapon lab fan-fiction.

The Company cares about Aliens. They did in the first movie. The WYR established that in the event of knowledge of a potential source of Aliens (or presumably other xenobiological organisms, not just Capital-A Aliens), a Special Order gets invoked, such as we see in Alien and Isolation. It's worth pointing out that per the Special Order program in the WYR, the Company wasn't specifically looking for Capital-A Aliens yet, because they didn't know they exist yet. Presumably most of these Special Orders go nowhere or aren't about Capital-A Aliens (the one in Alien was the 37th one, for example). It's easy to assume that since Special Order 937 didn't go anywhere, whoever was in charge of that special order just said "oh well" and quietly covered their tracks after an expensive spaceship vanished into thin air.

But the company still cared about Aliens, and continued to do so all the way up to Alien3, based on their response (an armed, multi-person corporate capture team from one of their own ships).

Why didn't they send an armed multi-person corporate capture team in 'Aliens'? Because (according to the WYR and CMTM) Burke was intentionally withholding that information from the company at large, so he could unilaterally enact his plan and get a big finders fee without people higher up the chain in the Company leapfrogging over him and cutting him out.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:54:03 AMIn contrast, Cameron explains in his commentary that his intention was to depict the idea of evil corporations, and in this case it's W-Y. In addition, the prequels reveal similar, and now works like Foster's novels and the WYR: what we're looking at is an evil corporation and not Dr. Evil.

Burke is not Dr. Evil, he didn't set out to murder the colony just cuz. He's an example of a culture of "banality of evil". Burke worked alone, but the knowledge is there that if he didn't do what he did first, someone else in the company would have done it anyway. That's the point, that's how the company is evil. The movie just focuses on the actions of one man to illustrate it.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:54:03 AM

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Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:46:00 AM:laugh: @AT is always lurking in the shadows, for "inspiration"

More important, sharing some of the content of the Weyland-Yutani Report.

You'd do better to actually cite the WYR with page numbers and quotes.

---

I think I've had my fill of this thread. Ralfy isn't going to change or acknowledge anything other than his own vapid, long winded manifestos, the thread poll speaks for itself, and we already know everyone else posting in or reading this thread thinks Ralfy is full of shit.

Sorry to disappoint you @Local Trouble

the only knowledge that van leeuwen had came from the flight recorder of the narcacis as to the special order which was none.

wyr and cmtm are valuable resources. but even if the ipo presents them as canon and they contradict the movies the movies still win. still has the final say.

Quote from: SM on Dec 23, 2023, 08:52:50 PM

QuoteReport what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there.

Sending the colonists to investigate a potentially deadly lifeform without any kind of warning is quite illegal.  If it wasn't illegal, he wouldn't then try to do other things that are illegal.

Yeah I suppose I've worded it badly. He'd obviously made extremely questionable decisions and given negligent orders to random colonists for a chance at personal gain.

I did say the Marines at that point wouldn't have killed him and that they would probably have let the authorities deal with him once they had all escaped. They only wanted to shoot him there and then because he tried to facehugger Ripley and Newt. The point is Ripley had likely told the Marines what Burke had been up to when she read the logs we just don't see it on screen. And they act appropriately really because at that point he hasn't literally tried to harm any of them directly.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 24, 2023, 07:19:38 AM@oduodu doin' the lord's work over here.

And you know, Ralfy's position really makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it at all.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 06:56:58 AM

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 24, 2023, 02:06:39 AMI have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Indeed, and it was also mentioned by Burke in the second movie. That plus the prequels and the W-Y Report referring to the special order stemming from the prequels and Foster's novelization reveal that the company knew about the alien after the prequels and formed groups like a bio-weapons division in response to that. It's possible that Burke's division, which is revealed in the business card he gives to Ripley, was formed either before or after the events in the first movie took place, and was tasked with acquiring the organisms to be sent to R&D (i.e., the company labs mentioned by Bishop in the second movie), and in turn to be sent to bio-weapons, etc. (according to Burke in the second movie).

Also, here's something from Alien Theory which refers to the W-Y Report:

Alien Theory is a trash YouTube channel that you shouldn't be citing, and much of what you wrote out in that long word-salad is fan-fiction head-canon unsupported by any actual sources.

Not to mention nothing you wrote disputes the notion that Burke came up with and enacted his scheme on his own.

Here's a fun challenge: let's see if you can make your case by actually citing specific documents, page numbers, time stamps, you know, actual research. No more "I think this says" or "someone please check on this for me" or relying on fan wikis, YouTube videos, or website articles.

You said you considered this a "debate" based on "logic", maybe you should start acting like it.

Sound good?

Alternately you could just give me what I want and acknowledge that your conclusion is your head-canon (I.e.: your personal interpretation, what you personally choose to believe).

Also I'm still lollin' that you intentionally cited the Alien Trilogy videogame as a real source.

Oh yeah any lurkers who want to emptyquote this post, feel free.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:08:21 AMAT refers to the WYR which explains how Burke planned the expedition, asking permission from WY to include Ripley in such and an experienced Marine team led by a lieutenant that he knew was a "team player". That means he was not working alone; rather, he was working for WY.

I'm going to need a citation on Burke asking permission to bring Ripley along (I doubt AT provides one). Be specific.

Also, once again, Burke working for the Company is not in dispute. However his doing so does not mean his actions in 'Aliens' were not done unilaterally, which is the point you're continually not grasping.

Edit— if AT is citing the statement of intent from the WYR, then that statement was made 200 years after Burke's actions and has no bearing on what they were doing or thinking in 2122 or 2179.

Also a reminder that the WYR is a questionable resource at times and should be treated with critical thinking skills.

Yep, Alien Theory is a known plagiarist. Loves to steal from our wiki.

I had to double take at Alien Trilogy being used as a source as well. Loved that game.

Alien Theory reading out things other people have written AND Alien Trilogy.  It's hard to know how to counter these devastating blows from Ralfonso.

Quote from: SM on Dec 24, 2023, 01:32:14 PMAlien Theory reading out things other people have written AND Alien Trilogy.  It's hard to know how to counter these devastating blows from Ralfonso.

"No no you see, Alien Trilogy specifically says Burke was sent on orders, but then you've also got these Special Orders floating around too. And the Weyland Yutani Report is all tied in this too, not many people realize that. And the beacon got shut off multiple different ways... its's inconsistent, it doesn't make sense! But the business card... that's gonna blow this thing WIDE OPEN!"

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BOTY2NDY4OGUtYWE0Ni00NWZiLWI3NDktYmE2YWM3Njc3YmRkXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTIxOTU1MjQ3._V1_.jpg)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 24, 2023, 08:14:46 AMSorry to disappoint you @Local Trouble

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o84szW0PrWZyUv0mA/giphy.gif)

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 24, 2023, 08:46:55 AMthe only knowledge that van leeuwen had came from the flight recorder of the narcacis as to the special order which was none.

wyr and cmtm are valuable resources. but even if the ipo presents them as canon and they contradict the movies the movies still win. still has the final say.

The Board of Inquiry got the landing location from the flight recorder in Ripley's lifeboat. That's how Burke was able to order the colony manager to send someone to investigate the site.

The problem is that the prequels are also movies, and it's possible that new movies would borrow from other authorized mediam which is what happened with the Mad Max franchise.

Finally, I forgot to mention that I misread the wiki entry which described the W-Y division: as the sources reveal, they are mentioned in different sources.

The bio-weapons division was mentioned twice in the movies, by Ripley in the first and by Burke in the second.

The Special Services division comes from Burke's calling card in the second movie, but it's not mentioned in the wiki. Since its actions are shadowy, then that's how the wiki describes it. OTOH, given Burke's actions in the movie, then we know what it does.

The manufacturing division is implicit in Cameron's audio commentary, where he claims that W-Y makes arms for the military.

The reverse-engineering division stems from a comic book about AvP, which states that the company was partly formed from one run by a crime family that had connections with the town in which the second AvP movie took place. In any event, that requires no proof as alien tech can only be turned into weapons and manufactured, etc., if it's reverse-engineered.

---

Quote from: Jonjamess on Dec 24, 2023, 10:09:48 AM

Quote from: SM on Dec 23, 2023, 08:52:50 PM

QuoteReport what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there.

Sending the colonists to investigate a potentially deadly lifeform without any kind of warning is quite illegal.  If it wasn't illegal, he wouldn't then try to do other things that are illegal.

Yeah I suppose I've worded it badly. He'd obviously made extremely questionable decisions and given negligent orders to random colonists for a chance at personal gain.

I did say the Marines at that point wouldn't have killed him and that they would probably have let the authorities deal with him once they had all escaped. They only wanted to shoot him there and then because he tried to facehugger Ripley and Newt. The point is Ripley had likely told the Marines what Burke had been up to when she read the logs we just don't see it on screen. And they act appropriately really because at that point he hasn't literally tried to harm any of them directly.

This fulfills Cameron's intent in depicting "evil corporations." Given the examples that he gave, like industries profiting from the Vietnam War, what European corporations did in occupied India, and the Bhopal disaster, it appears that the question isn't whether or not what they're doing is illegal but whether or not they can get away with it.

Hence, the special order in the first movie, Burke's actions in the second, and the company's orders to the prisoners in the third.

If Ripley had told the Marines about what Burke did, then it's likely that they would have locked him up. In any event, it would not have mattered because the aliens found a way bypass their fortifications.

---

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 24, 2023, 11:55:34 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 24, 2023, 07:19:38 AM@oduodu doin' the lord's work over here.

And you know, Ralfy's position really makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it at all.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 06:56:58 AM

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 24, 2023, 02:06:39 AMI have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Indeed, and it was also mentioned by Burke in the second movie. That plus the prequels and the W-Y Report referring to the special order stemming from the prequels and Foster's novelization reveal that the company knew about the alien after the prequels and formed groups like a bio-weapons division in response to that. It's possible that Burke's division, which is revealed in the business card he gives to Ripley, was formed either before or after the events in the first movie took place, and was tasked with acquiring the organisms to be sent to R&D (i.e., the company labs mentioned by Bishop in the second movie), and in turn to be sent to bio-weapons, etc. (according to Burke in the second movie).

Also, here's something from Alien Theory which refers to the W-Y Report:

Alien Theory is a trash YouTube channel that you shouldn't be citing, and much of what you wrote out in that long word-salad is fan-fiction head-canon unsupported by any actual sources.

Not to mention nothing you wrote disputes the notion that Burke came up with and enacted his scheme on his own.

Here's a fun challenge: let's see if you can make your case by actually citing specific documents, page numbers, time stamps, you know, actual research. No more "I think this says" or "someone please check on this for me" or relying on fan wikis, YouTube videos, or website articles.

You said you considered this a "debate" based on "logic", maybe you should start acting like it.

Sound good?

Alternately you could just give me what I want and acknowledge that your conclusion is your head-canon (I.e.: your personal interpretation, what you personally choose to believe).

Also I'm still lollin' that you intentionally cited the Alien Trilogy videogame as a real source.

Oh yeah any lurkers who want to emptyquote this post, feel free.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 24, 2023, 07:08:21 AMAT refers to the WYR which explains how Burke planned the expedition, asking permission from WY to include Ripley in such and an experienced Marine team led by a lieutenant that he knew was a "team player". That means he was not working alone; rather, he was working for WY.

I'm going to need a citation on Burke asking permission to bring Ripley along (I doubt AT provides one). Be specific.

Also, once again, Burke working for the Company is not in dispute. However his doing so does not mean his actions in 'Aliens' were not done unilaterally, which is the point you're continually not grasping.

Edit— if AT is citing the statement of intent from the WYR, then that statement was made 200 years after Burke's actions and has no bearing on what they were doing or thinking in 2122 or 2179.

Also a reminder that the WYR is a questionable resource at times and should be treated with critical thinking skills.

Yep, Alien Theory is a known plagiarist. Loves to steal from our wiki.

I had to double take at Alien Trilogy being used as a source as well. Loved that game.

AT quotes from the WYR, which AFAIK is authorized. That means it counts as part of the franchise story. The same goes for the Alien trilogy game.

If I could type the pertinent contents of the WYR and share them here, I would, but since AT already did that, then I'll just refer to him. Feel free to claim what he said is not accurate.

The point isn't that Burke came up with the plan by himself. It's that according to several in two threads Burke was working without knowledge by W-Y because the company didn't care for alien organisms. For the same reason, Burke attended the hearing because W-Y didn't bother to send anyone, that he was planning to rent W-Y labs and hire scientists to study the facehuggers, etc.

In short, Burke was literally working alone, and if it involved anyone else, it didn't include any W-Y personnel.

In contrast, my argument is that Burke was Director of the Special Services Division, and his actions describe the goal of that division. In short, he was working for W-Y. That's why he tells Ripley that the bio-weapons division would make millions from the find. That's because the division he heads feeds content to that division. He wasn't working alone.

Cameron explains in his commentary that that's his goal: to depict "evil corporations" like W-Y.

Finally, I'll try to give page numbers, etc., but I don't have all of the material. But I think many of you do: perhaps you can help out. One already shared the audio commentary which supports my argument, and another shared the intro from a game which is authorized content and supports my point directly.

---

To clarify, the wiki points out that the reference to the bio-weapons division is seen in the movie: it's mentioned by Burke, who says that it will earn millions from the find. In addition, the same division is mentioned by Ripley in the first movie.

The wiki also states that James Cameron is also the source of the Special Services division. The confusion lies in the fact that Cameron is both the writer and the director of the movie. Since Burke's business card in the movie shows that, then the source is indeed Cameron. The role of the division is implied in the movie, and it will be explained below.

Third, the weapons manufacturing division is implied by Cameron in his audio commentary: W-Y makes weapons, etc., for the military.

Lastly, the reverse-engineering division is mentioned in one comic book about AvP. It's said that a crime family formed a business that would later be acquired by Weyland, from which the division is formed. The origin involves the town in which one AvP movie takes place.

Why mention the four divisions? The process would have worked this way:

Burke orders Bishop to have the facehuggers prepared for company labs. That means that the SS Division (not a Nazi military unit, OK? LOL) is some sort of umbrella group that supervises all research divisions (e.g., company labs) and sends them things like dangerous alien organisms. Why is the SS division described as shadowy? Because the movie reveals that Burke was planning to smuggle the organisms and avoid quarantine.

In short, Burke works for the company. The claim that he was probably going to rent company labs himself is ridiculous.

Next, Burke justifies his actions about sacrificing the colonists because the organisms are worth millions to the bio-weapons division, and that he and Ripley could become rich from the find. That also proves that he was working for the company and not by himself, i.e., with the intention to profit solely. Why? Because later, Ripley would point out that he was working "for a percentage." In short, he, Ripley (the sole survivor of the Nostromo crew), and even Newt (heir of whatever the Jordens get) would get a cut from the profits. The proof that Ripley gets a share is the flight recorder of the Nostromo and for Newt the order that led the Jordens to discover the derelict ship.

From the company labs, the facehuggers would be sent to bio-weapons for "manufacturing." Meanwhile, whatever is found in the derelict ship would be sent to company labs, too, including reverse-engineering. The result would then be sent to weapons manufacturing, for sales to the military, etc.

Additional points:

The Alien trilogy game states that Burke was ordered by the company to send an armed group and obtain the alien organisms. The W-Y Report states that he received approval from the company after advising them that they should obtain the organisms and secure the derelict ship in order to obtain first rights to the latter.

Is there proof in the movie that leads to that? Yes. Burke says that the company had only mineral rights to the rock in exchange for paying for the terraforming facilities. At the same time, W-Y brought in surveyors like the Jordens to determine the mineral resources of LV-426.

That means the first one finds that claims a stake on the derelict ship would own it. That's why according to the Report Burke wanted to send a team right away. The goal is to get whatever the colonists found from the ship and/or secure it, but only after securing the colony (because the transmitter went down). The company needed first rights on the derelict ship, and that would have meant continuing what the Jordens didn't finish.

This explains what Burke meant when he said that what he did was a "bad call." He chose between the ICC and ECA imposing quarantines and lockdowns, and with W-Y getting nothing, and W-Y acting quickly by sending even a survey team to the ship so that the company could stake a claim on it. (I think in River of Pain the Jordens express the point that with discoveries of large ores they could get a percentage and finally go home, and even retire early, rich.)

Why do we know that Burke didn't work alone in this? Because he was an employee of W-Y, and thus working on company time. That means he went with the armed group representing the company and wanted to make sure that company facilities were secure. That's why in the movie he tells Ripley what W-Y did for the colony and substantial investments in it via the terraforming facilities, etc. That's also why Ripley tells the Marines he was working for a "percentage." That's also why Burke tells Ripley that she, too, would be rich if the organisms, etc., are exploited. In short, they were all acting in the capacity as W-Y employees. Meanwhile, the Marines, including Bishop, who according to an CM Report, works for the military, also work for and with W-Y, as explained by Cameron in his audio commentary, where he patterned both on the U.S. military and the U.S. defense industry working together.

This explains the brief debate between Burke and Ripley, with Hicks: Burke argued that they could not nuke the facilities because they're company property. Ripley had to turn to Hicks and make him point out that because it's a military expedition, then it was Hicks' call as the highest ranking non-capacitated military personnel at that point. In any event, it turned out to be irrelevant after they discovered that the colony would blow up because of damage caused by the firefight in the alien hive.

Do the actions of the company reflect real life? Somone pointed out that what Cameron intended came true thirty years later. Actually, what Cameron intended was happening decades before he made the movie, and even a few years earlier. In the commentary, Cameron pointed out that his intention was to show that W-Y was like the Dutch East India Company, a private corporation charted by the British to exploit India while the British colonized it. He also wanted to show that W-Y was like the companies that exploited the Vietnam War, i.e., they sold weapons to the U.S. military. Finally, he said that he was reminded of the Bhopal disaster, where one battery maker opened factories in India, and which led to environmental disaster.

In short, he wanted to show that companies are "evil". That is, they're profit-making and promote pragmatic ethics: it's not a matter of what's good or bad but what's right or wrong. The first refers to what's most profitable to shareholders and the second the opposite. However, owners also face liabilities, which is why they have to do what's right following the definition just given but follow the law, if not hide anything done illegally.

Those who graduate beyond cartoons know about this and can easily add to examples given by Cameron in his commentary. Those who don't we see this as a movie between good and Dr. Evil.

In short, this is further proof that Cameron's intention is to show that Burke was not only not working alone, but that the real antagonist of the movie is W-Y. The company used Burke, the Nostromo crew, and the colonists to get what it wants, which is to monetize finds.

Did the company forget about what it wanted, as claimed in two threads? No, because it formed an SS and bio-weapons division before the second movie took place, and even formed the bio-weapons division much earlier, which is why Ripley mentioned it in the first movie. The first movie even showed that W-Y was using synths to ensure acquisition of such organisms, etc.

Worse, the game Alien: Isolation shows that the company encountered the same creatures three decades before the second movie takes place, and in another place. I won't give more details in order not to spoil it for those who want to play it, but it derails the claim that not only W-Y but even other companies, the military, and government agencies like the ICC and the ECA didn't know about aliens or didn't care. They were all lying to Ripley in the second movie when they said that they had not encountered creatures that she described or did not see any derelict ship on LV-426.

How do we reconcile this with the point that by the second movie, the company only knew that there was a derelict ship on LV-426 but couldn't find it? There are details in the game that may explain that.

The game, however, counters Cameron's story, as mentioned in the Star Log article, that they didn't find the ship because the distress beacon was damaged by volcanic activity. I can't think of any way to reconcile Cameron's backstory with the game.

Why did W-Y form a bio-weapons division and ordered synths to secretly ensure acquisition, even if it meant sacrificing personnel, as seen in the first movie? According to the W-Y report, it's because of what happened in the prequels, where they found out about the aliens, etc. That means the company never forgot about such from the beginning. They just wanted to make sure that the government didn't get in their way. Why? Because, as mentioned in two movies, the ICC doesn't allow transit of things like dangerous alien organisms, and even requires quarantine for those exposed to them. ECA would support them to protect colonists.

Both were represented in the movie. If so, then why didn't they take Ripley seriously if they had the location of the derelict ship via the flight recorder? The W-Y report explains that the recorder was doctored by W-Y. That means the only one who knew the location was the company.

Why did they decide to send an armed group that specialized in "bug hunts"? Someone argued that it merely refers to doing something like finding and fixing "bugs" in systems; in short, small inconveniences that lead to big problems. But the second movie doesn't show that. When Ripley shows unwillingness to join the team, Gorman explains to them that they have "state-of-the-art" firepower to deal with the creature that she described in her report. In short, they weren't just bringing bug spray. Later, even Hudson gives more details on the firepower that they were carrying.

Finally, some asides:

If they knew that they were dealing with something that they couldn't handle, then why didn't they bring a larger force and even more medical crew? I think it's because they thought that what happened to the colonists was the same as what happened to the Nostromo: only one infestation took place, and they were dealing with only one alien. Why only one? Because they probably figured that the colonists, after seeing one person facehugged, woudn't be so foolish as to go into the derelict ship and end up being facehugged, too. Or there might be a better explanation in the novel River of Pain.

That's why even with a Sulaco that could carry more personnel, they decided to send only one one squad with a medic and a tech, the company rep, and a consultant. They figured that the hundreds of colonists were able to hold off and even restrict only one alien to certain areas, and that they couldn't call back because the transmitter got damaged. Getting the alien alive or dead wouldn't matter if there were more eggs, etc., in the derelict ship, as Ripley reported given Kane's account.

I think that's about it: there's no further evidence needed to show that the claim that Burke was working alone and to profit solely is ridiculous. Multiple sources, including the movie itself, Cameron, and other authorized media, reveal otherwise.

You wrote one hell of a Gish-gallop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop#Strategy) that's not worth refuting line by line, but needless to say you didn't actually respond to anything I'd said and none of the "evidence" you presented refuted the fact that Burke was working alone. All you did was repeat talking points you've said (and have been refuted) before as if saying them for the 37th time will suddenly make you right.

Alien Theory isn't a source, nor is a wiki, stop citing them unless you can fact-check them yourself. Every time you cite them we're just going to assume they (and your point) are false.

Nobody here is going to do your homework for you, start citing your sources properly.

You're in the movies subforum, stick to citing the movies, not "authorized media" (even though said authorized media doesn't help your case, and in fact refutes it).

Learn what head-canon means, because you're literally doing it (NOTE: THIS IS NOT A BAD THING).

the Alien Trilogy videogame is not a real source, for extremely obvious reasons. But if you want to include it in your head-canon, go nuts. :)

Edit— for a laugh, I ran your post through a word counter - 2,601 words. My brother in Christ, learn to write more succinctly. This isn't a college term paper where you need to pad your word count.

We can only pray that that's the definitive version of your manifesto and that you're never going to post it again.

Using Ralfy's logic, perhaps RoboCop should have arrested the entirety of OCP's executives and security team, instead of just Dick Jones;

-He had an OCP ID card
-He had authority over the entire company, second only to 'the old man'.
-The narrative of the movie was addressing corporations of the time period.

Therefore, using Ralfy-Vision, the whole company was in on Bob Morton's murder, in order to push forward with production of the ED-209 program. He definitely wasn't working alone with his own self interests at heart. Even the security team, when called, responded to his request immediately without question, just like Bishop did with Burke; they were all in on it! Every one of them!! Jones works for the company; let me quote the director; "Dick Jones is second at OCP" you see? It's all in the movie! 20 years later, a vaguely canon comic book by someone who'd never worked on the movie was released portraying all of OCP as evil, so it was the directors intention all along. It's all there to see... and the Reagan administration and Vietnam all happened, so what I'm saying checks out! See?

😌

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Dec 26, 2023, 06:31:33 PMUsing Ralfy's logic, perhaps RoboCop should have arrested the entirety of OCP's executives and security team, instead of just Dick Jones;

-He had an OCP ID card
-He had authority over the entire company, second only to 'the old man'.
-The narrative of the movie was addressing corporations of the time period.

Therefore, using Ralfy-Vision, the whole company was in on Bob Morton's murder, in order to push forward with production of the ED-209 program. He definitely wasn't working alone with his own self interests at heart. Even the security team, when called, responded to his request immediately without question, just like Bishop did with Burke; they were all in on it! Every one of them!! Jones works for the company; let me quote the director; "Dick Jones is second at OCP" you see? It's all in the movie! 20 years later, a vaguely canon comic book by someone who'd never worked on the movie was released portraying all of OCP as evil, so it was the directors intention all along. It's all there to see... and the Reagan administration and Vietnam all happened, so what I'm saying checks out! See?

😌

I cannot argue with that logic, good sir.

this thread makes me yawn to tears :'(

(https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjdwc.gif)

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 26, 2023, 11:38:39 PMthis thread makes me yawn to tears :'(

https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjdwc.gif

Somebody wake up Hicks Immortan Jonesy.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 26, 2023, 11:38:39 PMthis thread makes me yawn to tears :'(

https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjdwc.gif

Why, then, are you posting in it? Your comment doesn't make sense.

Anyway, here's another way of answering the question by looking only at the contents of the first two movies. The claim is that Burke is working alone because the company forgot and didn't care about aliens or what he was doing, and that he was operating to profit solely from the find. The counterarguments:

Ripley explains in the first movie that the ICC has quarantines against exposure to, transmission, etc., of dangerous alien organisms. She repeats the same point in the second movie.

Ripley explains in the first movie that the company set up a special order because it wants to acquire the alien for its bio-weapons division. Burke mentions in the second movie that the alien is worth a lot of money for the bio-weapons division.

Corporations set up divisions and special orders and governments regulations based on precedence. That means companies had acquired various organisms previously, and in the case of W-Y, set up bio-weapons and other divisions to monetize them. The ICC had set up quarantine and other regulations because some of those organisms turned out to be dangerous. And this might refer to not only the aliens depicted in the two movies but others discovered.

Since W-Y continued with its bio-weapons division and the ICC with quarantines, etc., after the first movie, then that shows that the claim that the company forgot and didn't care makes no sense.

Next, Burke showed a business card revealing that he is the Director of the Special Services Division of the company. That shows that he was at the time employed by W-Y.

After that, he orders the colony manager to send a team to the location of the derelict ship. The colony manager works for W-Y and would receive orders only from a superior in the same company. That shows that Burke was working as an employee of the same company. In addition, his actions show the functions of his division: it can order around employees from other divisions, and in this case a manager of a colony handling terraforming operations and surveying. How do we know that? Burke explains it to Ripley as they're about to land on the colony.

Later, Burke orders Bishop around, and Bishop works for the military. How do we know that? Because he was assigned to drive the APC, which is a military vehicle. The military does not assign civilians to operate their vehicles, among others. Thus, Burke, an official of W-Y, was even able to order military personnel around. This also shows an additional function of his division, which is to work with the military and other agencies, if not to make their personnel work for it. But there's a limit to that, because later Ripley tells Burke that even though the colony facilities are owned by the company the military has jurisdiction over the mission.

In addition, Ripley explains that Burke was planning to smuggle the alien organisms to company labs, and later, expose her and Newt to the facehuggers. This shows a third function of his division, which is to circumvent the ICC and other regulators, and even to follow the special order mentioned in the first movie and do so even if it meant making others expendable.

After Burke is caught, Ripley tells the Marines that he was planning to get rid of them so that he would get his percentage. This refers to a share of profits from revenues gained after the aliens are monetized. This obviously shows that Burke wouldn't have profited solely from the find even if he wanted to do so because he's a company employee, just like the Nostromo crew and the Jordens. This also explains why members of the Nostromo crew also referred to shares and the "bonus situation".

Thus, the two main points raised by Burkesters are essentially countered even by the contents of the first two movies, such that other authorized media are not needed. The latter are helpful, though, because they can explain discrepancies or clarify points in the first two movies, like the precendence for the bio-weapons division and ICC regulations, and why the Board of Inquiry decided not to investigate the evidence given in the lifeboat flight recorder.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 27, 2023, 01:26:06 AMWhy, then, are you posting in it? Your comment doesn't make sense.

Same could be said about you

All of your points have been refuted repeatedly (but you'd have to take people off of ignore to see it)

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/034/711/Screen_Shot_2020-07-24_at_11.33.38_AM.jpg)

"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

;D

While he may have been using his company resources and authority, he was still acting alone in that he took it upon himself to give out those orders without telling anyone else in the company, because he wanted to have the exclusive rights.

When Ripley says the percentage line, it was probably just to make her point on how even the monstrous alien don't screw each other.
And even if you take it at face value, all it means is that eventually the company would find out what burke did (going by the assumption he accomplished it) and would take their cut out of it since it would still be their labs and resources being used to hold the specimens.

Quote from: Prez on Dec 27, 2023, 03:30:12 AM"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

;D

More like an Alien fan.

Quote from: ralfy on Dec 28, 2023, 12:11:49 AM

Quote from: Prez on Dec 27, 2023, 03:30:12 AM"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

;D

More like an Alien fan.

Pretty sure we all are.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2023, 01:37:05 PMWhile he may have been using his company resources and authority, he was still acting alone in that he took it upon himself to give out those orders without telling anyone else in the company, because he wanted to have the exclusive rights.

When Ripley says the percentage line, it was probably just to make her point on how even the monstrous alien don't screw each other.
And even if you take it at face value, all it means is that eventually the company would find out what burke did (going by the assumption he accomplished it) and would take their cut out of it since it would still be their labs and resources being used to hold the specimens.

This is what I mean. This is the meaning of Burke working alone, not that he was physically doing so.

My points:

He has to use company resources because as an individual he has none. The same applies to everyone shown in the movie. According to Cameron, even the Marines had to rely on the company to manufacture armaments, etc.

He has to act alone, i.e., physically, because they had to do it without more knowing. Why? See below. That's also why Ash also had to work alone.

However, because he needed company resources, which includes other personnel (even those from the military), then he couldn't have been acting without company knowledge. (Even the military would have known about the Sulaco, its Marine unit sent on a rescue mission, and so on.) That's why the colony manager, who is from another division, accepted orders from him, who was doing so not as a private individual but as a company officer. That's also why, as company representative, he accompanied the military expedition to rescue "juicy" colonists' daughters. It's highly unlikely that the company did not know this because the facilities used by the colony belong to them, and even many of the colonists are also their employees.

In addition, the company had a bio-weapons division throughout, and as Ripley explains in as early as the first movie, that was set up to exploit what was gained from Ash's efforts, which would have included making personnel expendable.

That was Ripley's point, but a percentage still means exactly that: a share or percentage. That means Burke doesn't get exclusive rights. Rather, like the Jordens and the Nostromo crew he gets part of the profits earned by the company from exploiting the find. Another reason why this is so is because legally the find belongs to the company, and it involved using company personnel like Burke and Ripley and facilities.

What he meant by exclusive rights is that the company doesn't get them if they don't lay claim to the derelict ship first. Why's that? Because the company was granted only mineral rights to the rock. That means any finds above are up for grabs. Meanwhile, the ICC and ECA would impose lockdowns if it's known that dangerous organisms are involved. If that happens, bye-bye exclusive rights: the government could auction off the right to exploit the find to the highest bidder.

Because Burke, the Nostromo crew (including Ripley), and the Jordens were employed with W-Y, then they don't get exclusive rights and the company a cut. Rather, it's the other way round, as seen in reality: the one with the facilities gets the bulk of profits and others get a cut. That's why the ones who get the bulk of profits are oil companies, not the ones who find oil.

Why? Because that's how business works. What you get is based on the means of production that you own. The idea of becoming solely rich on a find because somehow you'll be able to, say, rent company labs and even factories to exploit finds, is at best a cartoonish view of the world, or imagining that villains are simply like Dr. Evil. Even financially you'll still lose because the amount you have to pay for for those labs and factories will eat up your "exclusive rights," leaving you with a percentage.

What was Cameron's point? According to the commentary, he wanted to depict "evil corporations". That's because what you saw in the movies are based on reality, where large, faceless groups of individuals with personal agendas are involved. It's not a Wacky Races show, where some evil mastermind can easily obtain anything he needs to achieve his goals, and then become sole ruler of the world, or of the universe.

This reminds me of one forum member who stated that what Cameron depicted in the movie (and which is also seenn in Scott's film) took place thirty years after, with multinational corporations using and abusing people. In reality, that was taking place decades before. That's why Cameron said that he was influenced by British corporations exploiting colonial India, U.S. companies exploiting the war in Vietnam, and the Bhopal disaster.

Yet another example of Ralfy shouting into the wind about things other people have refuted repeatedly, while he props up strawmen about what he thinks the people he has on ignore are saying.

For the love of Christ, someone please euthanize this thread.

Counterpoint: this thread should never be locked.  It should become a forum institution like Egg on Sulaco.  Anyone is welcome to try their luck at shaking some sense into ralfy before he clicks the ignore button on them.

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/21T9PmWttOb0EFrrwK/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 02:04:26 AMCounterpoint: this thread should never be locked.  It should become a forum institution like Egg on Sulaco.  Anyone is welcome to try their luck at shaking some sense into ralfy before he clicks the ignore button on them.

Counter-counterpoint: that's a stupid idea and I hate it, and it's way funnier if a mod comes in and says "everyone believe whatever head-canon they want to believe" and locks the thread before Ralfy can post another 3,000-word screed about who the f**k cares.

Edit— acceptable alternate comedy options:
1. Keep the thread open, but make it so Ralfy can only post in this thread and nowhere else.
2. Keep the thread open, but force Ralfy to un-ignore everybody.
3. Keep the thread open, but make it so Ralfy can *only* see his own posts forum-wide and no one else's.
4. Keep the thread open, but give Ralfy a permanent avatar and forum signature of an image of the NECA Burke action figure with the caption "BURKE WORKED ALONE".

You could always try to persuade the board admins to disable the ignore feature and then let the onslaught begin.

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/x7gjmBuaHrWak/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 02:16:19 AMYou could always try to persuade the board admins to disable the ignore feature and then let the onslaught begin.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/x7gjmBuaHrWak/giphy.gif

star_trek_nodding.gif

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 02:04:26 AMCounterpoint: this thread should never be locked.  It should become a forum institution like Egg on Sulaco.  Anyone is welcome to try their luck at shaking some sense into ralfy before he clicks the ignore button on them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/21T9PmWttOb0EFrrwK/giphy.gif

I'd rather play Crocodile Dentist with my schwanz

Quote from: kwisatz on Dec 28, 2023, 02:29:58 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 02:04:26 AMCounterpoint: this thread should never be locked.  It should become a forum institution like Egg on Sulaco.  Anyone is welcome to try their luck at shaking some sense into ralfy before he clicks the ignore button on them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/21T9PmWttOb0EFrrwK/giphy.gif

I'd rather play Crocodile Dentist with my schwanz

The points I gave here are commonsensical:

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?msg=2622214

The other authorized media are icing on the cake.

I use the ignore button because it's pointless dealing with those who lack common sense and are thus forced to resort to trolling. That's basically it.

Here's what "common sense" means:

W-Y had a bio-weapons division long before the events in the first movie started, and the ICC was implementing quarantine procedures as well. Those things don't take place out of the blue, which means companies had been finding, using, and weaponizing dangerous organisms, and the government had also been catching them doing so. Given that, it makes no sense that W-Y would not care about what Ripley reports.

No one in the movie and in reality has the means to go about solely exploiting such finds alone unless he's so rich he has company labs and factories at his disposal, and renting them doesn't help because the costs alone would mean that one will be left with only a fraction of the profits.

Personnel like colony managers and military technicians don't accept orders from private individuals. Rather, they accept orders only from higher ups in the same corporation or from corporations for which one works for. That's the case in this movie: the colony manager works for W-Y, and Burke, who was head of one W-Y division, was given the freedom to order people from other colonies around. Not only that, but he was able to order Bishop around as well, even if Bishop works for the Marines.

That's basically it. Given that, why include the other authorized media? Because they give more details about these points, if not deal with discrepancies.

For example, in his audio commentary, Cameron explains that in the real world, the government and the military work with and for corporations, directly or indirectly, covertly or not, and he gives several examples. His intention was to show the same in the movie: the government depicted in it stands for that of the U.S. and W-Y for U.S. corporations that exploit others. That explains why Burke works covertly, like Ash sees personnel, if not the innocent, as expendable, and can order military personnel like Bishop around. In short, the movie mirrors reality.

And yet in some cases it doesn't. For example, when the location of the landing ship is implicitly revealed in the movie, one would think that Ripley would continue protesting her innocence and demand that they investigate the landing site even though they think it's a waste of time to do so. Why? Because in boards of inquiry or whatever it really was, the accused is seen as innocent until proven guilty. That was the only piece of evidence Ripley had that could prove that her story was true, and yet she didn't do anything about it.

The WYR tries to explain what happened by stating that W-Y doctored the flight recorder logs. That meant that they only showed that the ship landed but no location could be retrieved. That makes sense.

Meanwhile, other pieces of evidence, like the one that explains the origins of a reverse-engineering division, look superfluous because one would assume that in order to move from retrieval to research to manufacturing one would need reverse-engineering, among others.

Still other media end up creating more contradictions, and one example is Alien: Isolation, where it's revealed that flight recorder is retrieved (that means the one on Ripley's lifeboat is either another recorder or a computer with copies of the Nostromo logs) and that the distress beacon is even de-activated. Meanwhile, in another commentary (this time an article for a sci-fi magazine) Cameron counters his critics by stating that the reason why W-Y didn't find the derelict ship was because the distress beacon was damaged by volcanic activity.

Finally, one work presented by a forum member, which has the intro of another alien game, makes all other authorized media superfluous by stating that Burke was ordered to send an armed team to retrieve alien organisms, etc.

One more thing: FWIW, if there's anything that doesn't make sense, it's going to this thread and posting that one would rather do other things than post in this thread.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 28, 2023, 02:09:28 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 02:04:26 AMCounterpoint: this thread should never be locked.  It should become a forum institution like Egg on Sulaco.  Anyone is welcome to try their luck at shaking some sense into ralfy before he clicks the ignore button on them.

Counter-counterpoint: that's a stupid idea and I hate it, and it's way funnier if a mod comes in and says "everyone believe whatever head-canon they want to believe" and locks the thread before Ralfy can post another 3,000-word screed about who the f**k cares.

Edit— acceptable alternate comedy options:
1. Keep the thread open, but make it so Ralfy can only post in this thread and nowhere else.
2. Keep the thread open, but force Ralfy to un-ignore everybody.
3. Keep the thread open, but make it so Ralfy can *only* see his own posts forum-wide and no one else's.
4. Keep the thread open, but give Ralfy a permanent avatar and forum signature of an image of the NECA Burke action figure with the caption "BURKE WORKED ALONE".

5. Rename the thread "ralfy's novel-bible-or-something" :'(
"

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ralfy has a curious definition of trolling.  I can understand him ignoring me.  Everyone does it at some point.  I'm insufferable.  But how does he justify ignoring SM, SiL and Xenomrph?

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 05:05:26 AMralfy has a curious definition of trolling.  I can understand him ignoring me.  Everyone does it at some point.  I'm insufferable.  But how does he justify ignoring SM, SiL and Xenomrph?

I think the better question is why on god's green earth does he think repeating his point over and over (and over and over and over....) is going to convince anyone that he's right?

Like I'm halfway convinced Ralfy is the troll, or at least a gimmick account. I mean, if he is then he's kind of a shitty one (I've seen some extremely dedicated gimmick trolls who kept the gimmick going for literally over a decade on the SomethingAwful forums).

But hey, that's Poe's Law in action.

I stand by my request that locking this thread after telling everyone to enjoy their head-canon is one of the funnier possible outcomes in this situation. Like, we already know how it plays out if some random newbie stumbles into the thread, because we've seen it for nearly the last 20 pages.

The Egg on the Sulaco thread works because everyone is in on the joke and it's an extremely unserious thread at this point. This thread has one very very serious poster shouting into the void and ignoring his detractors while everyone else points and laughs; it's not funny, it's stupid and sad.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 28, 2023, 05:05:26 AMralfy has a curious definition of trolling.  I can understand him ignoring me.  Everyone does it at some point.  I'm insufferable.  But how does he justify ignoring SM, SiL and Xenomrph?

To be fair I probably am and all.

ralfy is brilliant at marketing whatever he discusses. trump could use someone like him.