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Anyone want to talk about some sexy eggmorphing?

How exactly did Brett turn out like that? What was happening to Parker up there?

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig12.deviantart.net%2F01fc%2Ff%2F2014%2F274%2F4%2Fd%2F4dbad0fd85e3b7eb0a1b6cf5ee9563c4-d819sl6.jpg&hash=d11ae397789e8d7098513810e9ce167ab9ba7df4)

It's a fine concept, but I maintain that the scene in which Ripley discovered her eggmorphing crewmates is non-canon.  As I said in an earlier thread:

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 02, 2016, 05:15:07 PM
I don't like it for the same reason I opposed fans who wanted it reinstated years before DVDs existed: Ripley's "so who's laying these eggs?" question in Aliens makes no sense if that scene happened.

Cameron disregarded it because it wasn't in the theatrical release and wrote the screenplay for the sequel accordingly.  That's why Ripley doesn't know where eggs come from and why we got a queen instead.

That being said, I don't rule out the concept of eggmorphing. I just don't like that the scene of it from the original movie was restored in the Director's Cut because of its effect on the overall narrative.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 07, 2016, 02:20:19 AM
It's a fine concept, but I maintain that the scene in which Ripley discovered her eggmorphing crewmates is non-canon.  As I said in an earlier thread:

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 02, 2016, 05:15:07 PM
I don't like it for the same reason I opposed fans who wanted it reinstated years before DVDs existed: Ripley's "so who's laying these eggs?" question in Aliens makes no sense if that scene happened.

Cameron disregarded it because it wasn't in the theatrical release and wrote the screenplay for the sequel accordingly.  That's why Ripley doesn't know where eggs come from and why we got a queen instead.

That being said, I don't rule out the concept of eggmorphing. I just don't like that the scene of it from the original movie was restored in the Director's Cut because of its effect on the overall narrative.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. I think Ridley Scott and Fox have the last say on this. Besides, what does Cameron (my 3rd best director after Lucas & Scott) have to do with anything Alien now, he's out filming Pocahontas in la la land for the next decade. We saw eggplant Brett in the director's cut as part of the movie, therefore it should be canon.

Local Trouble didn't say eggmorphing wasn't canon.

There's nothing to rule out eggmorphing, and I believe this is deliberate.

However, LT is correct in that if we accept the Director's Cut events as canonical it creates two continuity gaffs in Aliens.

One - 'who's laying these eggs' as mentioned.
Two - Gorman asks Ripley what the hive is and she says "I don't know".

I found this on AVP Wikia, interesting that it almost appeared on A3. Btw, don't mess with my eggmorphing man! It can coexist with the ant concept and your boring queen lol.

Eggmorphing
"Eggmorphing" is a process by which Xenomorphs are capable of transforming non-Xenomorph organic material into a viable Egg. It is in essence an alternate means of reproduction that does not require the presence of an Egg-laying Queen. The concept originates from a deleted scene in Alien, and despite the fact all reference to it was removed from the theatrical release of the film, Eggmorphing has gone on to be a noteworthy aspect of the Alien franchise.


OVERVIEW
While the mechanics of the process are unknown, essentially it involves the Xenomorph cocooning a victim and subsequently converting them into a new Egg containing a Facehugger. Notably, the victim does not need to be alive for this process to be successful — deceased matter is equally viable, as was the case with Samuel Brett. Typically, a second, live victim would be cocooned alongside the Eggmorphing subject, thereby providing a viable host for the Facehugger, once it has developed.


BEHIND THE SCENES
Alien
Eggmorphing was originally to be witnessed during the climax of Alien, when Ripley discovers Dallas and Brett cocooned in the Nostromo's hold, with Brett being transformed into an Egg. The entire sequence was cut as director Ridley Scott felt it slowed down the final act of the film. However, the scene did appear in the movie's novelization, and was referenced in the novelizations of the sequel films.

More Info
The Book of Alien, which first revealed the existence of the Eggmorphing scene.

Unlike many deleted scenes from movies, especially from the time period, the lost Eggmorphing scene actually became fairly well known following the film's release, and not just as a result of its inclusion in the novel. The existence of a filmed version of the scene was first confirmed in the behind the scenes book The Book of Alien, published to coincide with the release of the movie. Several other publications from the same year also mentioned the cut sequence, including the Officially Authorized Magazine of the Movie and two articles in the monthly magazine Famous Monsters of Filmland (issues 158 and 159), both of which were produced by Warren Publishing. In 1992, the actual footage of the scene was released to the public for the first time, along with several other deleted scenes from the movie, as part of the LaserDisc release of Alien. The scene was subsequently discussed in numerous sources, including the book Giger's Alien and an issue of Aliens magazine, while the footage went on to appear on various other home video releases, as well as in documentaries on the making of the film, starting with The Alien Legacy. Finally, in 2003, the Eggmorphing scene was reinstated (albeit partially) into the film for its Director's Cut.

With the removal of the Eggmorphing scene, the manner in which the Xenomorph Eggs were originally created was left unclear in Alien. When James Cameron came to make the sequel Aliens, he devised the Queen as a means to fill the Xenomorph's reproductive gap. Even before the release of the Director's Cut of Alien, the Eggmorphing scene was fairly well known, and fans have for many years debated whether the two differing means of Xenomorph reproduction can co-exist, or whether Eggmorphing should be disregarded as a retconned curio, given that it was originally deleted from the first movie. The issue of these differing methods of reproduction has largely been ignored in official sources, the only notable exception being the novelization of Alien3, which states that both forms of reproduction are typical of the species, and that either can be used to create more Xenomorphs, dependant on the situation.

Later appearances and references
Despite its removal from Alien, the process of Eggmorphing appeared in several of the unproduced scripts written for Alien3, most notably Eric Red's unproduced script. A similar scene was included in early versions of the final shooting script for the third film, but was again cut from the movie, this time before filming.

Following the release of Alien: Isolation, it was theorized that Eggmorphing may have been responsible for the Eggs seen in the Hive aboard Sevastopol Station. However, the game's developers later confirmed that a Queen was in fact the source of the Eggs, she merely remains unseen in the game.

TRIVIA
Some have theorized that Eggmorphing could be the means by which Xenomorphs create a Queen.
Quotes from Ridley Scott seem to imply that Eggmorphing actually involves the human 'host' serving simply as a source of nutrients or 'yolk' for the growing Egg, rather than physically becoming the Egg itself, as is typically assumed.

APPEARANCES
Alien Director's Cut/novel
Aliens (novel) (mentioned only)
Alien3 (novel) (mentioned only)
Alien vs Predator (1993 video game)
Alien vs Predator (1994 Jaguar video game)

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To be frank, I think it doubles the mystique of the Alien if eggmorphing is valid. With or without the Queen. It's a win win situation for everyone, for the fans, the franchise and for the poor lonely Alien who manages to latch on some unsuspecting ride aboard a vessel.

If the eggmorphing is too complicated for the masses, why not transform the concept into queenmorphing instead?

Eggmorphing is too bad ass though. I'd never get rid of that concept.

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2016, 03:32:17 AM

However, LT is correct in that if we accept the Director's Cut events as canonical it creates two continuity gaffs in Aliens.

One - 'who's laying these eggs' as mentioned.

In the first instance, Ripley has no idea what's going on in that scene. 

She comes across the deceased Bret and immobilsed Dallas but she doesn't exactly stop to analyse what's happening to either of them.  Nor is she a biologist, let alone an expert in xenobiology.  As far as she knows, the Alien has fastened them to the wall her understanding is that dallas is suffering.  It could be using them as a food source for all she knows.  Remember, Ripley hasn't even seen an Alien egg at this point so even the partial formations of the egg around Bret is meaningless to her. 

So, no.  Even after viewing The DC, she still doesn't know how the eggs are created.  There's no connection for her - only for the audience, and largely only because we've been told via external sources.  It's not immediately present in the movie.

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2016, 03:32:17 AM
Two - Gorman asks Ripley what the hive is and she says "I don't know".

Well, maybe she doesn't know. 

As soon as she saw them, she didn't exactly scream "Stay clear from those facehuggers in jars!  Those things can bleed acid and will kill you!", either.  ...and she knew they could do that.  That's a bigger gaff as far as I am concerned.  She just says "Uh-huh." when Burke queries her about them.  You can put it down to her lacking the technical knowledge for xenobiology, after all, that's not her area of expertise.  Why would she know better?

You could claim the same for her first glimpse of the hive in the AP.

- - -

Either way, there's no reason why eggmorphing and the Queen can't co-exist.  I wouldn't be surprised if Scott re-introduces it at some point in one of his upcoming movies to really freshen things up.  He's already demonstrated a preparedness to embrace previous concepts discarded from earlier versions of 'ALIEN' and also out to mix things up quite a bit from what we have already seen in 'Prometheus'. 

At least once across the next 3 movies, I'd say it's a safe bet that eggmorphing will appear.  Besides, Scott has his own ideas about what he wants to do with these movies.  He's more likely to include his own ideas than be slave to anything anyone else has created, including Cameron's Queen.

Honestly, though.  I think we will see both.  There's 3 movies coming - and Scott rarely likes to repeat himself and he's going to need to rely a good diversity of content to make them all worth watching. 

-Windebieste.

Interesting ideas and thoughts guys. By the way, who first wrote the concept of eggmorphing? Was it in Dan O'Bannon's & Ron Shussett's script, or did Giger or Scott or Giler bring it up?

By the way, I added a poll for fun. Goodnight.

O'Bannon.

I voted other.  Basically, if the aliens are naturally evolved animals, then I would say no egg-morphing.  I am basing that on earth creature reproduction, which afaik always occurs in a set way per species.  I know it's an alien so the analogy may not make sense, but the alien reproductive system would seem a bit overwrought to me.

If on the other hand, they're engineered weapons, then anything goes.  If I engineered them, I would put in failsafes like that.

Overall, I like the ambiguity.  I like watching the extended cut of alien knowing that it doesn't necessarily represent canon.  I'm all for alternate realities.  And while we're on the subject of alternate realities, I'm really excited for Neil Bl... Just kidding!  Not here..

Quote from: windebieste on Sep 07, 2016, 04:15:08 AM
In the first instance, Ripley has no idea what's going on in that scene. 

She comes across the deceased Bret and immobilsed Dallas but she doesn't exactly stop to analyse what's happening to either of them.  Nor is she a biologist, let alone an expert in xenobiology.  As far as she knows, the Alien has fastened them to the wall her understanding is that dallas is suffering.  It could be using them as a food source for all she knows.  Remember, Ripley hasn't even seen an Alien egg at this point so even the partial formations of the egg around Bret is meaningless to her. 

So, no.  Even after viewing The DC, she still doesn't know how the eggs are created.  There's no connection for her - only for the audience, and largely only because we've been told via external sources.  It's not immediately present in the movie.

I know where you're coming from but it's too obvious with just a curiousy glance that Brett looks like an egg. Granted, she wouldn't know exactly what the Alien eggs look like at this point but she should be aware the hugger came from an egg and Brett looks like an egg.

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 03:42:05 AM
I found this on AVP Wikia, interesting that it almost appeared on A3. Btw, don't mess with my eggmorphing man! It can coexist with the ant concept and your boring queen lol.

It was also brought up in the Alien 3 novelization too - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/website/interviews/alan-dean-foster/

Corporal Hicks – In the Alien 3 novelization you referenced back to the egg-morphing scene deleted from Alien. Why did you decide to reconcile the two methods in the book?

Alan Dean Foster – Insightful and necessary question.  The obvious (and I hope successful) attempt to rationalize two methods was necessary once the whole queen alien biology was put forth in Aliens. Otherwise, there's no reason for the single alien in the first film to go through the whole coccooning business.

A good example of something a novelizer doesn't have to worry about...but a science-fiction writer does.

Corporal Hicks – Was it something you'd been asked to do or was it a concern of your own?

Alan Dean Foster – Concern of my own.

I can't remember about the other scripts though. I've just about purged Red's script from my memory. They did build some cocoons for Alien 3 that folk often think are for eggmorphing but they weren't.

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 03:24:05 AMWe saw eggplant Brett in the director's cut as part of the movie, therefore it should be canon.

I disagree.

Theatrical versions of these films should be the only ones considered canon.

I think having egg morphing and the queen is the best way to go.

I voted no because it just seems dumb to me. I know it is science fiction and there are all kinds of far fetched things going on in the universe, but the rest of the lifecycle makes logical sense to me. The idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Like someone else said earlier, I guess it would make sense if the alien was specifically engineered as a bio weapon because you would want an adaptable backup plan for your soldiers. But if it is a more of a natural creature then I would go with what I said above.

Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Sep 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PM
I voted no because it just seems dumb to me. I know it is science fiction and there are all kinds of far fetched things going on in the universe, but the rest of the lifecycle makes logical sense to me. The idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Like someone else said earlier, I guess it would make sense if the alien was specifically engineered as a bio weapon because you would want an adaptable backup plan for your soldiers. But if it is a more of a natural creature then I would go with what I said above.

It's actually not far fetched at all and certainly not magic. With egg morphing the general idea is that an embryo is planted in or on the host and then uses the host for nourishment to grow into an egg with a hugger inside. The idea was actually inspired by insects.

Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Sep 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PMThe idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Seeing as everyone loves the analogies of insects and Aliens, let's go that route for the sake of convenience, erroneous as it is.  I've mentioned this before.  Caterpillars don't just become butterflies when undergoing metamorphosis in their coccoon.  The body inside chrysalis actually breaks down its  proteins with enzymes and the contents of the cocoon become like a viscous jelly.  Basically, the caterpillar has become an organised mass of goo (sound familiar?) with various organs and other hard body parts present.  The gellatinous mass then re-organises itself and emerges as a winged insect. 

So such dramatic transformations in the real world are genuine and very, very strange.  Eggmorphing, as a speculated means of breaking down its host and reorganising it for the sake of propagation and becoming an egg is just as valid, in a fictional sense. 

As far as multiple means of reproduction goes, yes.  We have samples of organisms on Earth (the real deal!) that reproduce both sexually (requiring a partner of the opposite gender) and axesually (no partner required).  Organisms such as slime moulds and sea anenomes. So it's not too far fetched that a fictional space monster can't possess dual means of reproduction, too. 

I'm not a biologist - we really need someone with such credentials here.  Either way, they'd add to the list.

Whatever, it's not 'alchemy' or 'dumb' or 'magic'.  Multiple means of reproduction is represent and documented on our own world so it's not too far fetched as a concept that other life forms elsewhere can do so as well.  As far as I'm concerned, eggmorphing and egglaying by the Queen are equally valid and as they are both documented within the movies without conflict - because there isn't any - there should be no argument about them both being present.

They are different aspects of the same organism. 

-Windebieste.

Quote from: windebieste on Sep 07, 2016, 09:24:14 PM

Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Sep 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PMThe idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Seeing as everyone loves the analogies of insects and Aliens, let's go that route for the sake of convenience, erroneous as it is.  I've mentioned this before.  Caterpillars don't just become butterflies when undergoing metamorphosis in their coccoon.  The body inside chrysalis actually breaks down its  proteins with enzymes and the contents of the cocoon become like a viscous jelly.  Basically, the caterpillar has become an organised mass of goo (sound familiar?) with various organs and other hard body parts present.  The gellatinous mass then re-organises itself and emerges as a winged insect. 

So such dramatic transformations in the real world are genuine and very, very strange.  Eggmorphing, as a speculated means of breaking down its host and reorganising it for the sake of propagation and becoming an egg is just as valid, in a fictional sense. 

As far as multiple means of reproduction goes, yes.  We have samples of organisms on Earth (the real deal!) that reproduce both sexually (requiring a partner of the opposite gender) and axesually (no partner required).  Organisms such as slime moulds and sea anenomes. So it's not too far fetched that a fictional space monster can't possess dual means of reproduction, too. 

I'm not a biologist - we really need someone with such credentials here.  Either way, they'd add to the list.

Whatever, it's not 'alchemy' or 'dumb' or 'magic'.  Multiple means of reproduction is represent and documented on our own world so it's not too far fetched as a concept that other life forms elsewhere can do so as well.  As far as I'm concerned, eggmorphing and egglaying by the Queen are equally valid and as they are both documented within the movies without conflict - because there isn't any - there should be no argument about them both being present.

They are different aspects of the same organism. 

-Windebieste.

Let me preface by saying that I am also not a biologist, but it is once agin an apples / oranges comparison, and not for the obvious reason.  To my knowledge, most creatures on earth has only 1 means of reproduction.  Worms seem to be different.  You can cut a worm in half and you will have 2 worms.  Or you can take 2 worms and mate them.  Is the first form of reproduction really a form of reproduction though?  It is analogous to twins isn't it?  With twins, you have 1 egg, and 1 sperm and then 2+ offspring, but they start from an identical code.  When you sever a worm in two, it will retain the identical code won't it?

Anyway, bottom line, yes there are multiple means of reproduction, but each species has its own, and that method does not vary within the species.  It only varies outside the species.  What is proposed here, is that the alien species has 2 (heck or more, who knows?) means of reproducing.  Based on our earth experience that seems odd.  From an evolutionary standpoint, why would a creature evolve multiple means of reproduction?  But their not from earth.  So it is anybody's guess, and just personal preference really.

As I said above, if the Aliens evolved, then I say 1 means of reproduction.  If they are created weapons, then anything goes.

And here I always thought if you cut a worm in half and it became 2 it was magic.  :D

I'd imagine something similar to a fungal parasite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis), in which the alien implants an egg spore into the victim, which absorbs nutrients from the host to grow an epidermis which spreads outside the victim and envelops it. Could systematically liquefy the host for further nutrients.

My memory of the novelisation is that it implies Dallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms, which sounds quite a bit like a hyper-voracious fungal infection.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 07, 2016, 09:56:28 PMAnyway, bottom line, yes there are multiple means of reproduction, but each species has its own, and that method does not vary within the species.  It only varies outside the species.  What is proposed here, is that the alien species has 2 (heck or more, who knows?) means of reproducing.  Based on our earth experience that seems odd.  From an evolutionary standpoint, why would a creature evolve multiple means of reproduction?  But their not from earth.  So it is anybody's guess, and just personal preference really.

If they evolved according to fast spread/easy eradication pressures, it'd make sense to have one fast, highly efficient egg machine system (Queen), and a slower redundancy for when there's no available Queen, or for establishing a far-flung colony. Unlike insects, aliens don't have a cadre of young Queens buzzing around waiting to take the original's place or fly off to make new hives.

In terms of earthly creatures, aphids are an example of something with multiple reproduction methods. They can asexually give birth to clones which are already fertilised to give birth to the next generation (for rapid spread of the aphid colony), or they can reproduce sexually for the purposes of evolution. They all come out of the same hole, I guess, but it's fairly close to a parallel.

Quote from: Vertigo on Sep 07, 2016, 10:14:49 PM
I'd imagine something similar to a fungal parasite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis), in which the alien implants an egg spore into the victim, which absorbs nutrients from the host to grow an epidermis which spreads outside the victim and envelops it. Could systematically liquefy the host for further nutrients.

My memory of the novelisation is that it implies Dallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms, which sounds quite a bit like a hyper-voracious fungal infection.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 07, 2016, 09:56:28 PMAnyway, bottom line, yes there are multiple means of reproduction, but each species has its own, and that method does not vary within the species.  It only varies outside the species.  What is proposed here, is that the alien species has 2 (heck or more, who knows?) means of reproducing.  Based on our earth experience that seems odd.  From an evolutionary standpoint, why would a creature evolve multiple means of reproduction?  But their not from earth.  So it is anybody's guess, and just personal preference really.

If they evolved according to fast spread/easy eradication pressures, it'd make sense to have one fast, highly efficient egg machine system (Queen), and a slower redundancy for when there's no available Queen, or for establishing a far-flung colony. Unlike insects, aliens don't have a cadre of young Queens buzzing around waiting to take the original's place or fly off to make new hives.

In terms of earthly creatures, aphids are an example of something with multiple reproduction methods. They can asexually give birth to clones which are already fertilised to give birth to the next generation (for rapid spread of the aphid colony), or they can reproduce sexually for the purposes of evolution. They all come out of the same hole, I guess, but it's fairly close to a parallel.

Well, I'll be damned.  Fascinating.  So it does happen.  So by that analogy, eggmorphing is sort of like asexual reproduction which means the new aliens would be clones.  While the queen's eggs would come from sexual activity which means evolution.  It would mean the queen has sex with something.  Wonder what that would be?  Anyway, I could buy that.

Ya. Aphids are born pregnant and also share both sexual and asexual means of reproduction.  Aphids also serve as a parallel in this regard as well if we treat the facehugger and chestburster as different generational stages of the Alien.  The egg that contains the facehugger already has the 'germ' of the chestburster inside it.  Just like aphids can have multiple generations inside them.

It doesn't necessarily mean the Queen has sex with anything.  She's a Queen by convention only, we don't even know if Aliens possess any gender.  As far as we know, the Queen could be male. 

...and why not?  Once again, this isn't a precedent.  Male sea horses are the ones that become pregnant and bare the young. 

So, this whole notion of addressing the Queen as 'her' may be completely erroneous.  As far as we know, she's just an automated egg laying machine that starts production upon reaching maturity without the assistance of a partner. 

It/she could be parthenogenic, that is, capable of breeding without the need for a partner.  Like the Mexican whiptail lizard.  It reproduces without a partner as all specimens of the lizard are female.  Don't ask me how it does it.  It just does. 

You can try and dream up as many crazy ideas about breeding and propagation as you like - but the chances are high that Mother Nature has already beaten you to it.  Or, as Dr. Ian Malcolm once correctly stated, "Life finds a way."

So, eggmorphing isn't that difficult to appreciate, especially when considered alongside the Queen's own ability to reproduce.  We have examples of all this stuff here on Earth. The Alien just cobbles them all together to its own end.  ...and what an end it is.  The result? 

The Perfect Organism.*

-Windebieste.

*No.  I'm Not talking about you.  lol.   :laugh:

You know, it's also possible that the alien was deliberately engineered to have a reproductive cycle that would prevent them from breeding after they had depopulated an ecosystem.  That would make perfect sense if they were indeed bioweapons.

Haha, slime moulds, fungi parasites, aphid sex life...great stuff.  ;D

QuoteI'd imagine something similar to a fungal parasite, in which the alien implants an egg spore into the victim, which absorbs nutrients from the host to grow an epidermis which spreads outside the victim and envelops it. Could systematically liquefy the host for further nutrients.

My memory of the novelisation is that it implies Dallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms, which sounds quite a bit like a hyper-voracious fungal infection.

Wow dude, just before I read this and your guys posts, I was thinking something similar as to how in the heck a facehugger will appear in the end..This method could very be it!

QuoteDallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms

Damn, imagine how %$#^ that is. No wonder he's telling Ripley to kill him. And check out Brett's head turning into liquified nutrients.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodinokov.org%2Fcontent%2FArticles%2Fmy%2Faliens_gen%2Falien_nest.jpg&hash=906e7f93bdc7fc11c9b31d4b46cf1c6cd78dd56b)

Quote from: windebieste on Sep 07, 2016, 11:29:49 PM
Ya. Aphids are born pregnant and also share both sexual and asexual means of reproduction.  Aphids also serve as a parallel in this regard as well if we treat the facehugger and chestburster as different generational stages of the Alien.  The egg that contains the facehugger already has the 'germ' of the chestburster inside it.  Just like aphids can have multiple generations inside them.

It doesn't necessarily mean the Queen has sex with anything.  She's a Queen by convention only, we don't even know if Aliens possess any gender.  As far as we know, the Queen could be male. 

...and why not?  Once again, this isn't a precedent.  Male sea horses are the ones that become pregnant and bare the young. 

So, this whole notion of addressing the Queen as 'her' may be completely erroneous.  As far as we know, she's just an automated egg laying machine that starts production upon reaching maturity without the assistance of a partner. 

It/she could be parthenogenic, that is, capable of breeding without the need for a partner.  Like the Mexican whiptail lizard.  It reproduces without a partner as all specimens of the lizard are female.  Don't ask me how it does it.  It just does. 

You can try and dream up as many crazy ideas about breeding and propagation as you like - but the chances are high that Mother Nature has already beaten you to it.  Or, as Dr. Ian Malcolm once correctly stated, "Life finds a way."

So, eggmorphing isn't that difficult to appreciate, especially when considered alongside the Queen's own ability to reproduce.  We have examples of all this stuff here on Earth. The Alien just cobbles them all together to its own end.  ...and what an end it is.  The result? 

The Perfect Organism.*

-Windebieste.

*No.  I'm Not talking about you.  lol.   :laugh:

Ok, so we do have precedents in our earth biology.  Cool  I wonder if those female lizards are actually reproducing (evolving) or just duplicating themselves, (cloning)?

It all comes down to two things really.

1.  What Fox says the aliens can do

2. Whether the aliens are evolved or designed (in other words, please refer to option 1.)

If the aliens are evolved, then doesn't it stand to reason that an exchange of genetic code with other organisms is necessary in order for that to happen?  Otherwise, each time she lays an egg, it is always her own genetic information.  So if she is evolved, she needs to interact with other aliens to continue evolving.  Those lizards must be able to at least sometimes mate with other lizards.  Otherwise how do they all look the same?  There has to be genetic exchange, or at least at some point there had to have been.  Likewise, the same would go for the aliens.

If on the on the other hand, they are constructs, then anything goes.

And on the third hand, whatever Fox says works, will work.

What are you talking about Winde?  I reproduce aesexually at least 3/4 of the time.  I really am the Perfect Organism!   8)  (it just doesn't feel that way 3/4 of the time somehow)   :laugh:

Gynandromorphism

A gynandromorph is an organism that contains both male and female characteristics. The term gynandromorph, from Greek "gyne" female and "andro" male, is mainly used in the field of entomology. These characteristics can be seen in butterflies, where both male and female characteristics can be seen physically because of sexual dimorphism. Cases of gynandromorphism have also been reported in crustaceans, especially lobsters, sometimes crabs and even in birds. A clear example in birds is the gynandromorphic zebra finch. These birds have lateralised brain structures in the face of a common steroid signal, providing strong evidence for a non-hormonal primary sex mechanism regulating brain differentiation.

A gynandromorph can have bilateral asymmetry, one side female and one side male, or they can be mosaic, a case in which the two sexes aren't defined as clearly.

Bilateral gynandromorphy arises very early in development, typically when the organism has between 8 and 64 cells. Later the gynandromorph is mosaic.

The cause of this phenomenon is typically, but not always, an event in mitosis during early development. While the organism is only a few cells large, one of the dividing cells does not split its sex chromosomes typically. This leads to one of the two cells having sex chromosomes that cause male development and the other cell having chromosomes that cause female development. For example, an XY cell undergoing mitosis duplicates its chromosomes, becoming XXYY. Usually this cell would divide into two XY cells, but in rare occasions the cell may divide into an X cell and an XYY cell. If this happens early in development, then a large portion of the cells are X and a large portion are XYY. Since X and XYY dictate different sexes, the organism has tissue that is female and tissue that is male.

A developmental network theory of how gynandromorphs develop from a single cell based on internetwork links between parental allelic chromosomes is given in. The major types of gynandromorphs, bilateral, polar and oblique are computationally modeled. Many other possible gynandromorph combinations are computationally modeled, including predicted morphologies yet to be discovered. The article relates gynandromorph developmental control networks to how species may form. The models are based on a computational model of bilateral symmetry.

In his autobiography, Speak, Memory, the writer and lepidopterist Vladimir Nabokov describes a gynandromorph butterfly, male on one side, female on the other, that he caught as a youth on his family's Russian estate.

Chickens can also be gynandromorphous.

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 11:54:42 PM
Haha, slime moulds, fungi parasites, aphid sex life...great stuff.  ;D

QuoteI'd imagine something similar to a fungal parasite, in which the alien implants an egg spore into the victim, which absorbs nutrients from the host to grow an epidermis which spreads outside the victim and envelops it. Could systematically liquefy the host for further nutrients.

My memory of the novelisation is that it implies Dallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms, which sounds quite a bit like a hyper-voracious fungal infection.

Wow dude, just before I read this and your guys posts, I was thinking something similar as to how in the heck a facehugger will appear in the end..This method could very be it!

QuoteDallas was being gradually consumed by a swarm of tiny organisms

Damn, imagine how %$#^ that is. No wonder he's telling Ripley to kill him. And check out Brett's head turning into liquified nutrients.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodinokov.org%2Fcontent%2FArticles%2Fmy%2Faliens_gen%2Falien_nest.jpg&hash=906e7f93bdc7fc11c9b31d4b46cf1c6cd78dd56b)

Hey where's Brett's hat?  I thought that was an integral part of his anatomy..

Morphology of the egg shell and the developing embryo of the Red Palm Weevil, Rhynchophorus ferrugineus

Egg shell of insect forms a barrier to protect the egg and the embryo from possible disadvantageous environmental influences like desiccation, water loss, bacterial infection and physical destruction. On the other hand, the egg shell enables gas exchange and maintenance of proper humidity. These diverse functions are usually performed by distinct and structurally specified regions of the egg shell (Chapman, 1998).

Egg shells are often species-specific, moreover their morphology, when considered comparatively, may reflect important evolutionary adaptations and characters of egg shells may be satisfactorily used for phylogenetic considerations (Howard and Kistner, 1978; Dominguez and Cuezzo, 2002). Basically, the egg shells consist of two major parts: vitelline envelope and chorion (Rosciszewska, 1996a,b; Simiczyjew, 1999; Poprawa and Rost, 2004; Kubrakiewicz et al., 2005; Sierr et al., 1995; Gaino et al., 2008).

The chorion is secreted by cells in the follicular epithelium when eggs are laid; it is viscous, allowing the egg to adhere to the substrate. When dry, the chorion assumes its characteristic patterns. According to Mendonca et al. (2008) the chorion of the egg shell in other insects bears the more or less hexagonal honey-comb impression of the follicle cells (epithelium) of the females ovaries.

The chorionic characteristics structures of the insects' eggs introduce many variations. In many insect eggs this chorion has two distinct layers: the endo- and the exochorion. They are not homologous among different species (Rogol et al., 1992).

The insect ootaxonomy, based on egg chorionic sculpturing observed by scanning electron microscopy (SEM), is well advanced for a comparative morphological study of eggs of various families of the Dipteran insects (Hinton, 1981; Fousto et al., 1993), species of Coleopteran insects from Chrysomelidae (Rowley and Peters, 1972), and from Bostrichidae (Kucerova and Stejskal, 2008).

According to Sierr et al. (1995) chorionic structures can be grouped into three basic types (micropyles, attachment structures, and chorionic sculpturing) each of which can also be classified according to some characteristics of the chorion structures, such as like ultrastructure, single or collective arrangement, and position or distribution on egg shell surface.

Insect eggs have a gap-like structure in the chorion denominated micropyles. Some insects have a single terminal micropyle. But several species present a micropylar apparatus constituted by a set of openings, where the spermatozoa penetrate the eggs (Yamauchi and Yoshitake, 1984). Depending on the insect species, the number and the position of micropylar apertures may vary from two to one hundred and this apparatus is present in the Acrididae, which shows 30–40 openings disposed in a ring at the posterior region of the egg (Sarashina et al., 2005). However, Weesner (1969) stated that, the micropylar apparatus in Termitidae was present near the posterior region of the eggs and the number of its openings were concentrated in a single row or arc and ranged from 6 to 11, varied considerably among the species and even among eggs of the same species. The micropylar openings were reaching up to 40 in Cryptotermes brevis (Roonwal and Rathore, 1975).

Also, the chorion of many insects' eggs contains an air layer. The aeropyle is adopted to allow sufficient gas exchange, and formation of this layer which acts as an efficient distribution system of gases for the developing eggs, has been studied in details in some insects including Drosophila (King et al., 1956; Cummings and King, 1969) and the silkworm moth, Bombyx mori (Matsuzaki, 1968; Mazur et al., 1980).

The purpose of the present study is to investigate the eggs morphometric and morphological external characteristics of eggs surface. The details of chorion sculpturing, architecture, micropylar and airopyle apparatus style, the embryo hatching area as well as the gradual differentiation of the egg envelopes and chorionic changes in the eggs of the Red Palm Weevil, R. ferrugineus (Oliver).

This study may be considered a standard reference in the egg morphological descriptions of the insect, however, no structures or ultrastructures of egg capsule surface or egg shells were described before, for this species.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3730735/

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Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 08, 2016, 12:08:44 AM
Hey where's Brett's hat?  I thought that was an integral part of his anatomy..

It was recently discovered, here you go:  :P
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=38247.650

Good posts Nostromo.   :)

Hehe yes...never thought I'd be learning this stuff...

Aphids...now that's some weird stuff in there if anyone wants to have a go at it.  :D

Windebieste your one crazy man to have delved into this subject hahaha.

http://influentialpoints.com/aphid/Aphid-eggs_biology_morphology.htm

Am searching info on live parasitical morphing, perhaps those wasps that sting spiders and bury them with eggs attached to them.

---

Holy shyte...this is effin interesting. This could be the holy grail for an similar example.

Polyembryony: The Parasitic Wasps

Insects are an exceptionally successful and widespread subphylum, however, so it is not surprising to find an enormous amount of variability in their development. The development of the parasitic wasp Copidosomopsis tanytmemus differs remarkably from that of the canonical Drosophila. Like several other parasitic species, the female C. tanytmemus deposits her egg inside the egg of another species. As the host egg (usually that of a moth) is developing, so is the parasite's egg.

However, while the host egg begins development in the usual superficial pattern, the wasp egg divides holoblastically. Moreover, instead of differentiating a body axis, the cells of the parasitic embryo divide repeatedly to become a mass of undifferentiated cells called a polygerm. By two weeks, the growing polygerm is suspended in the host, remaining loosely attached to the larval brain and trachea.

As the polygerm grows, it splits into dozens (sometimes thousands, depending on the species) of discrete groups of cells. Each of these groups of cells becomes an embryo! The polyembryonic wasp Copidosoma floridanum produces up to 2000 individuals from a single fertilized egg (Grbic et al., 1996; 1998). This ability of an egg to develop into a mass of cells that routinely forms numerous embryos is called polyembryony. (Polyembryony is characteristic of certain insect groups and certain mammalian species, such as the nine-banded armadillo, whose eggs routinely form identical quadruplets.) Remarkably, even in the absence of a syncytium, the segmentation genes and homeotic genes are appropriately activated (Grbic et al., 1996).

Most of these parasitic wasp embryos develop into normal wasp larvae that take about 30 days to develop. A smaller group, about 10 percent of the total number of embryos, become precocious larvae (Figure 1B), which develop within a week. Not only are they formed earlier, but precocious larvae have very little structure and do not undergo metamorphosis. They are essentially a mobile set of jaws. These larvae do not reproduce, and they die by the time the normal larvae are formed. While they live, however, they go through the host embryo killing the parasitic larvae of other individuals (of different species and of other clones of the same species). In other words, the precocious larvae are predatory forms that kill possible competitors (Cruz, 1981, 1986b; Grbic and Strand, 1992).

As the precocious larvae (and their prey) die, the normal larvae emerge from their first molt, and they begin feeding voraciously on the hostis larval organs. By 40 days, the parasitic brood has finished eating its hostis muscles, fat bodies, gonads, silk glands, gut, nerve cord, and hemolymph, and the host is little more than a sac of skin holding about 70 pupating wasp larvae. After another 5 or 6 days, the new adults gnaw holes in the hostis integument, and in a scene repeated in the movie Alien, chew their way out of the hostis body. These adults then copulate (often on the body of their dead host), find another host in which to deposit an egg, and die shortly thereafter. (The wasps even are more nefarious than you would think. When the female lays her eggs in the host, she injects a virus that incapacitates the host's immune system [Beckage, 1997]).

Such a life cycle discomforted Charles Darwin and made him question the concept of a benign and all-knowing deity. In 1860, he wrote to the American biologist Asa Gray, "I cannot persuade myself that a benevolent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars." However, in addition to their usefulness in provoking disquieting notions concerning natural order and the nature of "individuality," parasitic wasps may have important economic consequences. Macrocentrus grandii is a polyembryonic wasp that parasitizes the European corn borer. The ability of an insect to form from a holoblastically cleaving embryo should also encourage us to appreciate some of the plasticity of nature and discourage us from making sweeping generalizations about an entire subphylum of organisms (Strand and Grbic, 1997; Grbic and Strand, 1998).

http://10e.devbio.com/article.php?id=92

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PS> I was going through this reading it and adding bold marks on paragraphs that sounded interesting and similar to what Vertigo mentioned before when I noticed it mentions Alien...unfrikinbelivable coincidence..lucky find.

The Ichneumonidae wasp folks...a fascinating mfkin being! So complicated and mysterious it even baffled the great Darwin himself!

QuoteSuch a life cycle discomforted Charles Darwin and made him question the concept of a benign and all-knowing deity. In 1860, he wrote to the American biologist Asa Gray, "I cannot persuade myself that a benevolent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars."

If only he knew it was the Engineers!  :D

QuoteHowever, in addition to their usefulness in provoking disquieting notions concerning natural order and the nature of "individuality,"

individuality; just like an Alien.

This is basically describing the Tarantula Hawk Wasp.  An amazingly "evil" species that lays eggs in a live Tarantula.  What's interesting is that the Tarantula has effectively become a part of the THW.  Without the Tarantula, the THW can't reproduce.  (If I am wrong, somebody please correct me on this one as I am 85% sure).

I wonder how long the Tarantula is alive during this process.  Somebody needs to make a micro horror movie about this.

The botfly lays eggs in humans regularly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botfly

I read a fun book about this recently be Dan Riskin.  It is called, Mother Nature is Trying to Kill You.

Sick, you know, I remember watching some documentary I believe it was on the Quadroligy set, and someone was asked or compared the Alien to a bee or ant, and I think it was Giger, Scott or O'Bannon who said "actually more like a parasitic wasp"...I always wanted to research more on these wasps..gruesome vicious things..

Screw it I'm shutting down my pc, all this shyte has creeped me out lol.

https://answersingenesis.org/creepy-crawlies/parasitic-wasp-spider-zombies-web/

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 08, 2016, 01:23:02 AM
Sick, you know, I remember watching some documentary I believe it was on the Quadroligy set, and someone was asked or compared the Alien to a bee or ant, and I think it was Giger, Scott or O'Bannon who said "actually more like a parasitic wasp"...I always wanted to research more on these wasps..gruesome vicious things..

And yet, can you imagine what the wasp is thinking...

OMG, look at that Tarantula!  Hello sailor!  Hubba hubba!  Come here hot stuff..

And what the Tarantula is thinking...

I'm the king of the world, I'm gonna eat me some insects, I'm the king of the world, I'm gonna eat me some insects!  Fra la la.  Hey, wait a minute.  Wait.  No !  Stop!  WTF!!!  Stop humping my legs you freak!  Owww...

Please read that link I just added Perfect Organism, LOL is that what your referring too?

Similar idea, but different.  Watch the Tarantula Hawk Wasp in action.







With the THW, it literally battles the Tarantula, and there is no web involved.  She drags the Tarantula back to her "fun place" and deposits the eggs.

How did this evolve?

I think the Tarantula Hawk Wasp should sue Ridley Scott. :P

It evolved because mother nature really is a bitch at heart.

ok, but you know there must have been a moment during the THW's evolution, when it looked at a female THW and said, "you know what honey, we're through.  I'd rather go f#%k the tarantula next door".

It's crazy.  I mean look at what we're saying.  It's paranoid delusion!  Imagine deciding to bring a different species into your mating ritual.

And yet it's real..

It even did the Alien crab walk. For sure these wasps have a patent case vs Fox. How did they evolve...lol.

Amazing creatures though...wasps man, they're gonna  fully evolve and take over the world someday.

I'm interested in the Ichneumonidae wasp though, it lays regular parasites and some turn to parasites that are essentially just jaws that facilitate liquification of host? Poor Dallas.

Call Fox and tell them we have a new idea on line 1. SM, what do you think? Do we have something here? Show them the wasp doing the crab walk for starters.

Plan A) Pitch the parasitic plan
If that fails go to Plan B) We're suing you on behalf of wasps.
.

Fox secretary's standard response:

Another nutcase on line 1!

:laugh:

(Laughing with you not at you)

Haha Fox's secretary: It's anothet wasp nut case on line 1, should I put them on hold or transfer him to the Asylum again?

Ok that's enough goodnight lol.

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 08, 2016, 03:28:30 AMSM, what do you think? Do we have something here?

I think SM's screenplay is already in the can.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 08, 2016, 02:59:26 AM
ok, but you know there must have been a moment during the THW's evolution, when it looked at a female THW and said, "you know what honey, we're through.  I'd rather go f#%k the tarantula next door".

It's crazy.  I mean look at what we're saying.  It's paranoid delusion!  Imagine deciding to bring a different species into your mating ritual.

And yet it's real..

Oh goddamn it all to hell. We're in some real pretty shit now, man!

That deduction was amazing, I must say.  :laugh:

It's interesting that a victim prior to cocooning has articles of their clothing removed.Could this in some way aid the process of the person being absorbed/transformed into an egg-pod?

Newt had her clothes on when she was cocooned.

Could you imagine an alien slowly undressing somebody?

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 08, 2016, 07:04:25 AM
Newt had her clothes on when she was cocooned.

Could you imagine an alien slowly undressing somebody?

Newt wasn't being turned into an egg though.She looked looked like she was glued in place awaiting an egg's contents to deploy.

Holy truck!



Mother nature I have no words..

Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 08, 2016, 06:57:23 AM
It's interesting that a victim prior to cocooning has articles of their clothing removed.Could this in some way aid the process of the person being absorbed/transformed into an egg-pod?

Who had articles of clothing removed?

Lambert was nude

I think it was a remark about Brett's hat since it was established that his hat is an integral part of his DNA.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 09, 2016, 12:13:55 AM
I think it was a remark about Brett's hat since it was established that his hat is an integral part of his DNA.

Does that mean a Brettburster would sprout a Nostromo ballcap from its head?

Quote from: SM on Sep 08, 2016, 11:08:15 PM

Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 08, 2016, 06:57:23 AM
It's interesting that a victim prior to cocooning has articles of their clothing removed.Could this in some way aid the process of the person being absorbed/transformed into an egg-pod?

Who had articles of clothing removed?

Dallas was missing his jacket and one shoe was missing,exposing his bare foot.

There could've been any number of reasons for that though, before we get to 'their clothes were removed'.

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 12:51:36 AM
There could've been any number of reasons for that though, before we get to 'their clothes were removed'.

What reasons?

They were lost in the process of the Alien taking Dallas back to C-deck - either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 01:06:18 AM
They were lost in the process of the Alien taking Dallas back to C-deck - either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

He lost his jacket but not his shirt? And a sock as well as a shoe? It looks like they were deliberately removed prior to egg-morphing for some unknown reason,rather than lost in transit.

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 01:06:18 AM
either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

Exactly, I think it all depends how an Alien drags you. If it's by the hair you might only lose a shoe or 2..and a hat if you're wearing one..Who knows though, maybe it does try and undress you a bit.

Perfect Organism...sorry guy, I can't click on that video as I just ate.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 09, 2016, 12:34:59 AM

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 09, 2016, 12:13:55 AM
I think it was a remark about Brett's hat since it was established that his hat is an integral part of his DNA.

Does that mean a Brettburster would sprout a Nostromo ballcap from its head?

Totally.  And as soon as it opens its maw, it says,.... right.

---

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 09, 2016, 01:21:43 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 01:06:18 AM
either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

Exactly, I think it all depends how an Alien drags you. If it's by the hair you might only lose a shoe or 2..and a hat if you're wearing one..Who knows though, maybe it does try and undress you a bit.

Perfect Organism...sorry guy, I can't click on that video as I just ate.

You are wise beyond your years Nostromo.  But soon, you must face this dark reality.

Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 09, 2016, 01:20:07 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 01:06:18 AM
They were lost in the process of the Alien taking Dallas back to C-deck - either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

He lost his jacket but not his shirt? And a sock as well as a shoe? It looks like they were deliberately removed prior to egg-morphing for some unknown reason,rather than lost in transit.

I don't see how "it looks like" anything in particular.

The Alien removing the clothes is certainly an intriguing possibility, but I find the more mundane reasons I mentioned far more likely.

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 02:51:21 AM

Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 09, 2016, 01:20:07 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 09, 2016, 01:06:18 AM
They were lost in the process of the Alien taking Dallas back to C-deck - either struggling with the Alien, or ripped off with the Alien shoving him through vents.

He lost his jacket but not his shirt? And a sock as well as a shoe? It looks like they were deliberately removed prior to egg-morphing for some unknown reason,rather than lost in transit.

I don't see how "it looks like" anything in particular.

The Alien removing the clothes is certainly an intriguing possibility, but I find the more mundane reasons I mentioned far more likely.

I can understand Dallas losing a shoe in the vents but also a sock?That seems too specific-like it was done intentionally and not in a struggle.
Later Lambert would have clothing removed,so we know it is possible.

I always wondered why the corpses of the colonists in Aliens were missing their shoelaces.

Socks, laces...what else was missing? This thread has been dissected by surgeons!

Perfect Organism what is in that video? What is getting holoblasticallized?

Lol.  It's pretty bad.  Um, spoler alert:

Spoiler

It's about a caterpillar that is infested with wasp larva.  Lot's of them.  The caterpillar gorges itself to feed them basically.  I don't know how they get the shots of the larva inside the caterpillar, but it doesn't look like CGI.  The wasp who stung the caterpillar makes the caterpillar behave like a zombie.  Let me explain.  So once the larvae get big enough, they actually develop these sharp teeth and they bite their way out of the caterpillar, while it's still alive.  Once the larvae are out, other wasps want to attack those larvae!  Explain that little evolutionary tidbit!  But the caterpillar which gave birth to those things is zombified and obsessed with protecting the larvae.  It is still alive!  It spends the rest of its time building a cocoon-type thing around them.  It keeps building that until its own internal fuel reserves are spent and then it dies.

Bottom line, it protects its parasitic larvae as if they were its own children.

Don't show it to your kids.

[close]

Birds use grass and string for nests. 

Maybe the aliens use shoe laces for their nests?

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Sep 09, 2016, 05:21:20 AM
Lol.  It's pretty bad.  Um, spoler alert:

Spoiler

It's about a caterpillar that is infested with wasp larva.  Lot's of them.  The caterpillar gorges itself to feed them basically.  I don't know how they get the shots of the larva inside the caterpillar, but it doesn't look like CGI.  The wasp who stung the caterpillar makes the caterpillar behave like a zombie.  Let me explain.  So once the larvae get big enough, they actually develop these sharp teeth and they bite their way out of the caterpillar, while it's still alive.  Once the larvae are out, other wasps want to attack those larvae!  Explain that little evolutionary tidbit!  But the caterpillar which gave birth to those things is zombified and obsessed with protecting the larvae.  It is still alive!  It spends the rest of its time building a cocoon-type thing around them.  It keeps building that until its own internal fuel reserves are spent and then it dies.

Bottom line, it protects its parasitic larvae as if they were its own children.

Don't show it to your kids.

[close]

I was reading that the other night. Perhaps the larvae tell the caterpillar if you don't do as we say we'll tickle you to death...Maybe Vermillion has the answer! He did solve the shoe lace equation after all!

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 09, 2016, 10:53:24 AMMaybe Vermillion has the answer!

Vermillion always has the answer.  It may have nothing to do with the question, however.

Easy now.
Stay on target.
No thread drifting.

LOUD NOISES!

Loosen up!

All right.  Now listen up.  I want this thing to go smooth and by the numbers...

Quote from: Vermillion on Sep 12, 2016, 12:15:45 AM
Loosen up!

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F2zybllu.jpg&hash=9378b1b017c027f5671d4477038b3e0313c83c9b)

These freaks ^ mostly come out at night, mostly.  :laugh:

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160912%2F55d67096971efd30d3ba2aac0a1a97f7.jpg&hash=1c32654df7fca54ca686416b9256da0cab2f601e)

Every meal, a banquet?

Who ordered the SPAM?  ???

Let's keep on track fellas.

We're in the pipe. Five by five.
;)

..ok back to regular never ending debate.

I love the egg morphing idea. I think is more disturbing when you think about it.

I prefer the Queen concept to be honest, its much more plausible, though I admit eggmorphing is more Alien.

I prefer eggmorphing more if it comes at a cost and is therefore not the alien's preferred mode of reproduction.  Maybe the act of injecting a host with whatever causes it to morph into an egg is fatal for a soldier, which could explain why the Big Chap was dying at the end of Alien.

My interpretation was always that egg morphing is a way for drone to make queen egg, but in the end it's such effort it dies short after.

Yeah, it seems very fitting for the alien if it's similar to certain terrestrial species that die after mating.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/this-mammal-is-dying-to-have-sex-literally-1442440074

Eggmorphing is cool, and I particularly like how SiL used it in his AVP script.

However, I also feel that from a reproduction standpoint, having a warrior metamorph into a queen would be more efficient and feasible.

Where can I read SiL's AvP script?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=34423.0

Interesting to note that Blomkamp seems intent on featuring eggmorphing.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-static.denofgeek.com%2Fsites%2Fdenofgeek%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F04%2Fripley.jpg&hash=7b1ef1a48998cf1b4f7ca370a30618e0a98ada6b)

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 20, 2016, 02:47:05 PM
Interesting to note that Blomkamp seems intent on featuring eggmorphing.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-static.denofgeek.com%2Fsites%2Fdenofgeek%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F04%2Fripley.jpg&hash=7b1ef1a48998cf1b4f7ca370a30618e0a98ada6b)

Is that from Blomfankamp? Everytime I see his art and designs, they look so fanboyish! I mean it instantly shows he's not made for this franchise. Look at all that slime, you can tell this guy has the same taste as Jeunet from Alien Resurrection. Slime, gore, and crap flying all over the screen and some more geeked out bs ideas. And no, I didn't like any of his movies either. But hey, that's just one man's opinion.  ;D

"You can bill me".

For what it's worth, he didn't actually draw them himself.

Is it so different from this?

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 01:49:01 AM

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig12.deviantart.net%2F01fc%2Ff%2F2014%2F274%2F4%2Fd%2F4dbad0fd85e3b7eb0a1b6cf5ee9563c4-d819sl6.jpg&hash=d11ae397789e8d7098513810e9ce167ab9ba7df4)

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QuoteIf the eggmorphing is too complicated for the masses, why not transform the concept into queenmorphing instead?

Can you clarify what you mean by queenmorphing?

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 20, 2016, 03:07:00 PM
Is it so different from this?

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 01:49:01 AM

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig12.deviantart.net%2F01fc%2Ff%2F2014%2F274%2F4%2Fd%2F4dbad0fd85e3b7eb0a1b6cf5ee9563c4-d819sl6.jpg&hash=d11ae397789e8d7098513810e9ce167ab9ba7df4)

Hold on let me put my glasses here, ah yes, there it is, one is a slimy shiny slimebuckety white-silver colored putrid design, the other is a nice brown rusty non glossy non slimy Gigeresque type of art. That's my answer, one is a Gigeresque type of design the other is a non-Gigeresque design. Giger or whoever made that design didn't need to use ultra slime crap on it and it has a bigger effect, it has a very mysterious look to that provides shock rather than gore while the other is just a bucket of sh!t thrown on top of a person.

---

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 20, 2016, 03:07:00 PM

QuoteIf the eggmorphing is too complicated for the masses, why not transform the concept into queenmorphing instead?

Can you clarify what you mean by queenmorphing?

I should delete this option from the Poll, I believe we were talking about an Alien eggmorphing a person into a queen...

I took queenmorphing to mean that eggmorphing produced a queen egg and voted on that.  Should've got the clarification first.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 20, 2016, 04:01:46 PM
I took queenmorphing to mean that eggmorphing produced a queen egg and voted on that.  Should've got the clarification first.

Actually, you're right I believe that's what we were talking about. I added it to the description in the poll. It wouldn't make sense for a Queen to come out of that.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 20, 2016, 02:47:05 PM
Interesting to note that Blomkamp seems intent on featuring eggmorphing.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-static.denofgeek.com%2Fsites%2Fdenofgeek%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F04%2Fripley.jpg&hash=7b1ef1a48998cf1b4f7ca370a30618e0a98ada6b)

Doesn't look much like an egg.

How about this?

Quote(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2Z0jhuU.jpg&hash=7b63c584c66d2984795712c0bbc1c937ee5fde11)

The alien parasitic lifecycle is realistic.

Eggmorphing is unrealistic and to me sounds stupid. There isn't a single example in the endoparasitic animal kingdom where a method of reproduction involves molting one organism into another. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't fit the rules of an animal kingdom or even the rules of entropy or thermodynamics of the universe.

The animal kingdom has some weird examples.

Everything I am about to write is real.

Look up the jewel wasp, one of the more interesting versions of an endoparasitic organism.

When it needs to reproduce it lands on a cockroach (5 times it's size) and delivers an initial sting to a thoracic ganglion and injects venom to mildly and reversibly paralyze the front legs of the cockroach.

Temporary loss of mobility in the roach facilitates the second venomous sting at a precise spot in the victims's head ganglia (brain), in the section that controls the escape reflex. As a result of this sting, the roach will first groom extensively, and then become sluggish and fail to show normal escape responses.

The wasp proceeds to chew off half of each of the roach's antennae to regulate the amount of venom because too much could kill and too little would let the victim recover.

The wasp, which is too small to carry the roach, then leads the victim to the wasp's burrow, by pulling one of the roach's antennae in a manner similar to a leash. In the burrow, the wasp lays a white egg, about 2 mm long, in the roach's abdomen. It then exits and proceeds to fill in the burrow entrance with pebbles, more to keep other predators out than to keep the roach in.

With its escape reflex disabled, the stung roach will simply rest in the burrow as the wasp's egg hatches after about three days. Over a period of eight days, the wasp larva consumes the roach's internal organs in an order which maximizes the likelihood that the roach will stay alive the longest, at least until the larva enters the pupal stage and forms a cocoon inside the roach's body. Eventually the fully grown wasp emerges from the roach's body to begin its adult life.

THAT is real and happens.

But there is no example anywhere, where an organism covered by some magic slime spontaneously changes its DNA and molts into another organism.

Infact that is actually a very boring alternative to the ingenious things in nature even just here on Earth.

The queen-egg-facehugger-embryo-alien is much more realistic and also interesting in my opinion.

I know I'm jumping into a discussion that's been, uh... raging on here... for a while, but, here's my take.

I like the inclusion of both reproductive methods in the biology. There seems to be a lot of thinking centered on either 'this makes the most sense, and it should work this way'...etc., or vise versa. Frankly, I like the idea that we just can't fully predict/understand how it might work from situation to situation, and it won't always happen the same way. For me, that's simply the 'creepiest' way of looking at how the alien does it's thing. The same applies to the differences behaviorally between the creature(s) in each film. It's an unnatural organism, hardwired with various and unpredictable methods of integrating into whatever environment it may proliferate in. There's been plenty of attempts to deconstruct why it may breed or act a certain way in each installment. It does this in film A (or did, then didn't, then did...), but does this in film B -- why? But what I used to see as inconsistencies stemming from the interpretations of each filmmaker, I now believe actually act in service of making the creature all the more enigmatic, and ultimately more terrifying. We understand it to a point, but we don't. And I like that.

Now, I'm not advocating the kind of muddled bleeeuuugh we got in Prometheus. But as far as the different reproductive methods of the Xenomorph go, I think there's plenty of value in the blur there.

Jus' mah opinion, yo.

Caterpillars effectively digest themselves into a soupy gunk then grow into butterflies.

Don't see any reason why a similar concept couldn't be applied here.

Pretty much what SM says. 

More importantly, every facet of the Alien is an amalgam of many things, from its design, construction and behaviour.  It's described as a 'biomechanical organism', which of its own definition suggest that such amalgams are to be expected across the board. 

To this end, the Alien is an combination of many different types of life we are accustomed to.  The wasp and and host analogy is one example.  The caterpillar breaking down its proteins with enzymes into a gelatinous mass and reconstituting into a butterfly during metamorphosis is another.  The Alien is at least as environmentally durable and robust as a tardigrade...  The Alien's physiology is an amalgam of all these things - and so much more.  The action of its tongue is the equivalent of the mantis shrimp striking molluscs to smash through shell (or bone).  There are many blind animals that can find their way in the dark. 

All these features contribute to the ambience of the Alien as we know in multiple ways.  In the light of all this, it appears to be very limited way to treat its life cycle to just a single method.  Egg morphing has always been just as valid as the Queen.  If anything it's more so simply because Scott filmed the sequence 6 years prior to anything that appears in 'ALIENS'.

Scott is at the helm of this new trilogy.  You can bet that after he's already resurrected many obsolete 'ALIEN' concepts for 'Prometheus', he'll be prepared to re-introduce egg-morphing.  Scott's desire to introduce different visceral elements for these movie makes it an ideal candidate; after all, the Queen (in some form or another) has appeared in every movie since 1986.  Hell.  Even applying a gender to the Queen may be completely erroneous.  Male seahorses become pregnant and bare the young.  So maybe the Queen is male.  ...or more that likely it's hermophroditic; or even parthenogenic... 

There's even a good chance that the Alien isn't an 'animal' as we understand it so our most fundamental appreciation and understanding of it may be completely flawed and wrong.  Comics, games and novels have done a lot to pigeon hole and lamentably make the Alien predictable.  It's time to seriously break loose from these limiting confines of its definition and start having it f*ck with our heads again.

In no way does egg-morphing even conflict or contradict the Queen.  It's an additional stage of the Alien that's been around since the very beginning 9unlike the Queen).  An under used element and would it be deservedly re-introduced rather than more round again of the same old ho-hum "Oh, look.  It's a Queen Alien" scenario, which in all honestly, is as tired a trope as Ripley coming back again and again. 

F*ck me.  That tired old shit sure needs a break, anyway.  lol. 

I'm hoping to see egg-morphing in this upcoming 'ALIEN: Covenant' movie.  I'm tired of the lame rut this property has languished in. 

It's just too bad that 'Prometheus' was an average movie at best.  In this regard, it was definitely heading in the right direction, bringing fresh characters, scenarios, concepts and symbology into the mix.   

-Windebieste.

EDiT... Oh,yeah.  I forgot to mention moray eels, which do have a pharyngeal jaw - a mouth within a mouth - that it uses to draw in its prey.  While we're at it, let's consider cloning... We're almost capable of cloning extinct animals.  That process potentially permits a 2nd option for all species on this planet at breeding.  So why can't egg-morphing and egg propagation exist side by side?

Huh?  Answer me that, Mr. TheQueenIsTheOnlyWayBooHooBrigadeButtHurtALIENSfanBoi? ? ? ?  Huh?  Huh?  Huh..?

lol and  :P

Quote from: windebieste link=topic=55216.msg2140784#msg2140784

There's even a good chance that the Alien isn't an 'animal' as we understand it so our most fundamental appreciation and understanding of it may be completely flawed and wrong.  [...]  It's time to seriously break loose from these limiting confines of its definition and start having it f*ck with our heads again.

I so hope that's true. That it isn't some kind of exotic yet realistic animal in some bad-ass ecosystem somewhere. I'm kind of hoping on the experimentally developed yet influenced by superhuman, beyond our universe, concepts. Like Event Horizon but without the "human" created "hell" aspect. Hell, anything but just a simple animal.

Quote from: windebieste on Sep 21, 2016, 03:15:02 AM
Pretty much what SM says. 

More importantly, every facet of the Alien is an amalgam of many things, from its design, construction and behaviour.  It's described as a 'biomechanical organism', which of its own definition suggest that such amalgams are to be expected across the board. 

To this end, the Alien is an combination of many different types of life we are accustomed to.  The wasp and and host analogy is one example.  The caterpillar breaking down its proteins with enzymes into a gelatinous mass and reconstituting into a butterfly during metamorphosis is another.  The Alien is at least as environmentally durable and robust as a tardigrade...  The Alien's physiology is an amalgam of all these things - and so much more.  The action of its tongue is the equivalent of the mantis shrimp striking molluscs to smash through shell (or bone).  There are many blind animals that can find their way in the dark. 

All these features contribute to the ambience of the Alien as we know in multiple ways.  In the light of all this, it appears to be very limited way to treat its life cycle to just a single method.  Egg morphing has always been just as valid as the Queen.  If anything it's more so simply because Scott filmed the sequence 6 years prior to anything that appears in 'ALIENS'.

Scott is at the helm of this new trilogy.  You can bet that after he's already resurrected many obsolete 'ALIEN' concepts for 'Prometheus', he'll be prepared to re-introduce egg-morphing.  Scott's desire to introduce different visceral elements for these movie makes it an ideal candidate; after all, the Queen (in some form or another) has appeared in every movie since 1986.  Hell.  Even applying a gender to the Queen may be completely erroneous.  Male seahorses become pregnant and bare the young.  So maybe the Queen is male.  ...or more that likely it's hermophroditic; or even parthenogenic... 

There's even a good chance that the Alien isn't an 'animal' as we understand it so our most fundamental appreciation and understanding of it may be completely flawed and wrong.  Comics, games and novels have done a lot to pigeon hole and lamentably make the Alien predictable.  It's time to seriously break loose from these limiting confines of its definition and start having it f*ck with our heads again.

In no way does egg-morphing even conflict or contradict the Queen.  It's an additional stage of the Alien that's been around since the very beginning 9unlike the Queen).  An under used element and would it be deservedly re-introduced rather than more round again of the same old ho-hum "Oh, look.  It's a Queen Alien" scenario, which in all honestly, is as tired a trope as Ripley coming back again and again. 

F*ck me.  That tired old shit sure needs a break, anyway.  lol. 

I'm hoping to see egg-morphing in this upcoming 'ALIEN: Covenant' movie.  I'm tired of the lame rut this property has languished in. 

It's just too bad that 'Prometheus' was an average movie at best.  In this regard, it was definitely heading in the right direction, bringing fresh characters, scenarios, concepts and symbology into the mix.   

-Windebieste.

EDiT... Oh,yeah.  I forgot to mention moray eels, which do have a pharyngeal jaw - a mouth within a mouth - that it uses to draw in its prey.  While we're at it, let's consider cloning... We're almost capable of cloning extinct animals.  That process potentially permits a 2nd option for all species on this planet at breeding.  So why can't egg-morphing and egg propagation exist side by side?

Huh?  Answer me that, Mr. TheQueenIsTheOnlyWayBooHooBrigadeButtHurtALIENSfanBoi? ? ? ?  Huh?  Huh?  Huh..?

lol and  :P

^^^^^ Great posts ^^^^^

Could read this one a few times. And I forgot about this creature! I think it or the moray eel hold the world record for quickest movement by an animal, or something like that.

"The action of its tongue is the equivalent of the mantis shrimp striking molluscs to smash through shell (or bone)."

It's nice to be on a Forum website where many appreciate and like the roots of this Franchise.

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Quote from: gold on Sep 21, 2016, 01:45:55 AM
The alien parasitic lifecycle is realistic.

Eggmorphing is unrealistic and to me sounds stupid. There isn't a single example in the endoparasitic animal kingdom where a method of reproduction involves molting one organism into another. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't fit the rules of an animal kingdom or even the rules of entropy or thermodynamics of the universe.

The animal kingdom has some weird examples.

Everything I am about to write is real.

Look up the jewel wasp, one of the more interesting versions of an endoparasitic organism.

When it needs to reproduce it lands on a cockroach (5 times it's size) and delivers an initial sting to a thoracic ganglion and injects venom to mildly and reversibly paralyze the front legs of the cockroach.

Temporary loss of mobility in the roach facilitates the second venomous sting at a precise spot in the victims's head ganglia (brain), in the section that controls the escape reflex. As a result of this sting, the roach will first groom extensively, and then become sluggish and fail to show normal escape responses.

The wasp proceeds to chew off half of each of the roach's antennae to regulate the amount of venom because too much could kill and too little would let the victim recover.

The wasp, which is too small to carry the roach, then leads the victim to the wasp's burrow, by pulling one of the roach's antennae in a manner similar to a leash. In the burrow, the wasp lays a white egg, about 2 mm long, in the roach's abdomen. It then exits and proceeds to fill in the burrow entrance with pebbles, more to keep other predators out than to keep the roach in.

With its escape reflex disabled, the stung roach will simply rest in the burrow as the wasp's egg hatches after about three days. Over a period of eight days, the wasp larva consumes the roach's internal organs in an order which maximizes the likelihood that the roach will stay alive the longest, at least until the larva enters the pupal stage and forms a cocoon inside the roach's body. Eventually the fully grown wasp emerges from the roach's body to begin its adult life.

THAT is real and happens.

But there is no example anywhere, where an organism covered by some magic slime spontaneously changes its DNA and molts into another organism.

Infact that is actually a very boring alternative to the ingenious things in nature even just here on Earth.

The queen-egg-facehugger-embryo-alien is much more realistic and also interesting in my opinion.

Great analogy (we also went on an extensive wasp researching marathon in the start of this thread somewhere) but I really think you're cutting yourself short by not being a bit more open minded.

Why limit our understanding of Alien creatures or even Nature itself simply by what we know of and see here on Earth? Also, what tells us eggmorphing cannot be possible on some God forbidden planet out of the approximate 1 trillion planets in our Galaxy?

Already on just one planet (our Earth) we have specimens like the wasp you mention doing the weirdest stuff to other lifeforms.

Why shouldn't our Alien have alien reproductive methods? Or any other number of weird (weird to us) mechanisms.

---

It's almost like saying that a derelict ship shouldn't exist because we only have winged airplanes or rocket ships here.

I don't think you can predict which course Nature will take on another planet simply by knowing your own planet's evolutionary cycle & history. The possibilities are near infinite in our Universe.

Egg Morphing still can work even with the Queen Setup..

In the first movie, we only have 1 drone, and no Royal Facehugger/Queen Facehugger. So There would be noway to start a new nest. Thus The Egg Morphing happens, to create the initial batch of Eggs? Presumably they could all have Royal Facehuggers inside? Or just one of them does?

Clearly The Time-frame in the 1st movie didn't allow for the Nest To be Fully Established nor was the Alien given enough time to fully mature into a Warrior.

And by the time of Aliens we miss out completely on the Attack of the Aliens and the creation of the nest. Because all that stuff has happened by the time the Marines arrive.

We know from on screen Newts Dad was impregnated with a Regular Facehugger, so we have 1 Drone right there. Assuming the workers at LV-426 go back to the Crashed ship and bring more of the eggs back? Which leads to the Creation of more drones? Now that means either means, more aliens? Or one of the Aliens morphed into a Queen? Or Drones captured people and morphed them into eggs, one of which turned into a Queen Facehugger..

That Queen had to come from somewhere, there's an evolution process we don't know about yet. Maybe Egg Morphing can play a part in that?

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 21, 2016, 04:47:29 AM


^^^^^ Great posts ^^^^^

Great analogy (we also went on an extensive wasp researching marathon in the start of this thread somewhere) but I really think you're cutting yourself short by not being a bit more open minded.

Why limit our understanding of Alien creatures or even Nature itself simply by what we know of and see here on Earth? Also, what tells us eggmorphing cannot be possible on some God forbidden planet out of the approximate 1 trillion planets in our Galaxy?

Already on just one planet (our Earth) we have specimens like the wasp you mention doing the weirdest stuff to other lifeforms.

Why shouldn't our Alien have alien reproductive methods? Or any other number of weird (weird to us) mechanisms.

---

It's almost like saying that a derelict ship shouldn't exist because we only have winged airplanes or rocket ships here.

I don't think you can predict which course Nature will take on another planet simply by knowing your own planet's evolutionary cycle & history. The possibilities are near infinite in our Universe.

On second thought, you're right. Why limit it to Earthy examples. Idk I just found it uninspired to just have someone sit there and turn into an egg.

Idk, maybe if there was a step added it would make it more interesting. Like remember "the change" from the William Gibson script. Where an infected host would "after a varying period of time" suddenly rip their skin off to expose a type of human/xenomorph hybrid below, and "dispose of his or her own skin and flesh like a husk."

Maybe if a facefugger mouthrapes, we get a chestburster, but if a xenomorph mouthrapes you, you think you are lucky to survive, until later you notice some strange flakiness on your skin.

Gradually it gets worse, as does the feeling of numbness in your legs. What starts as an innocent limp slowly begins to turn to indolence and lethargy. Not wanting to move, not knowing why. Perhaps with accompanying euphoria, a sense of it'll all be ok, why bother. An unnatural sense of positivity,... A creepy positivity. Which at first enthuses people around you.

Gotta think of something more gross than someone with just their head sticking out of a giant egg though.
Actually, biologically speaking the facehugger is the most complex cellular part of the egg. In the "human eggmorph" the human is the "core" of the (at first) symbiotic relationship.

Logically the facehugger or whatever evolves inside the egg should evolve from the human. Human is bigger than a facehugger, so from the human brain/head. Imagine facehugger fingers growing out of the sides of the hair. At first it looks like plucks of wayward hair, like someone just got out of bed, yet is strangely cheerful...but move the hair away slightly and see the embryotic gnarly facehugger knuckles growing out of the sides of the head. Lips deforming, upperlip hideously pulling upward with eyes swollen and dissapearing.

Quote from: SM on Sep 21, 2016, 02:31:02 AM
Caterpillars effectively digest themselves into a soupy gunk then grow into butterflies.

Don't see any reason why a similar concept couldn't be applied here.

Well when you put it like that; morphing doesn't seem very alien at all. Yea yea I know, the alien is based off of earthly creatures. Just when people mention it, it really dampers the mood. :P

About the whole Morphing thing, Is it really the transformation of one organism into another?

I rather interpret it as the human body being digested/consumed by an extremely aggressive alien Cancer, a Cancer that eventually forms an egg. This is how I interpret the whole thing after reading the initial notes by the filmmakers and Giger.

Presumably, a full-grown chestburster would use the corpse of its own host as the raw material for a new egg.  It evidently doesn't require a living organism for this which is why it didn't hesitate to kill Brett.  This is also why I think it doesn't even necessarily require another organism in order to grow an egg (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=55195.msg2137456#msg2137456).  Carrion just happens to be the most convenient source of mass.

This could also explain why the dog alien killed its prey.  For all we know, it had a secluded nest full of eggmorphing corpses that we never got to see.

But now we have to ask why the Acheron colonists weren't eggmorphed.

Quote from: Valaquen on Sep 25, 2016, 07:40:30 PM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
This could also explain why the dog alien killed its prey.  For all we know, it had a secluded nest full of eggmorphing corpses that we never got to see.

It did, which was known as the 'meat locker'; hosts (dead or alive) were rounded up to be used as food for the Queen. The scene was never filmed.

Quote from: bobby brown on Sep 23, 2016, 01:21:24 PM
About the whole Morphing thing, Is it really the transformation of one organism into another?

I rather interpret it as the human body being digested/consumed by an extremely aggressive alien Cancer, a Cancer that eventually forms an egg. This is how I interpret the whole thing after reading the initial notes by the filmmakers and Giger.

No, the Alien spore digests the host; the host is not transformed into an Alien or anything. However, before the Queen was a consideration, the eggs themselves were meant to be constructed from the host as a form of protection for the spore/facehugger. In Giger's mind the Alien abducted the crew and deposited them in its nest "the way a spider wraps its victims and sticks it to a wall". To reproduce, the Alien then deposits its spore in the host's body. Next, the creature "drains the blood out of its human prey and [forms] the dried husk into a cocoon, which eventually develops back into an egg."

Quote from Ridley: "Loose on the ship, this new Alien begins to lay eggs in the bowels of the ship. It lives to propagate and must find food for its offspring -- in this case, the crew members of the Nostromo upon whom the young Aliens can feed in their eggs until a new host comes along prodding the eggs. Then the cycle begins all over again."

We can presume that the eggs' 'leathery' texture arise from their origins as cocooned husks, and the viscera lining the interior of the egg further suggest that some living being has been turned inside out and rendered into 'yolk'.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 25, 2016, 07:29:25 PM
But now we have to ask why the Acheron colonists weren't eggmorphed.

No need after a queen is born.  As it was, the queen laid way more eggs than it needed to.

Quote from: Valaquen on Sep 25, 2016, 07:42:31 PMIt did, which was known as the 'meat locker'; hosts (dead or alive) were rounded up to be used as food for the Queen. The scene was never filmed.

I'd prefer the reason to remain unsaid rather than "food for the queen."  Perhaps the alien thought it was alone until it encountered Ripley and discovered a queen gestating inside her.

And then it immediately snatched and killed Andrews, but I have a feeling that it perceived him as a threat to Ripley.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 25, 2016, 07:52:46 PM

Quote from: Kelgaard on Sep 25, 2016, 07:29:25 PM
But now we have to ask why the Acheron colonists weren't eggmorphed.

No need after a queen is born.  As it was, the queen laid way more eggs than they needed.

Quote from: Valaquen on Sep 25, 2016, 07:42:31 PMIt did, which was known as the 'meat locker'; hosts (dead or alive) were rounded up to be used as food for the Queen. The scene was never filmed.

I'd prefer the reason to remain unsaid rather than "food for the queen."  Perhaps the alien thought it was alone until it encountered Ripley and discovered a queen gestating inside her.

And then it immediately snatched and killed Andrews, but I have a feeling that it perceived him as a threat to Ripley.

Funnily enough, in the unfilmed 'meat locker' scene, Andrews was still alive and begs, "Kill me". Cue flamethrower.

Andrews lost a lot of blood when the alien took him.  I wonder if that was filmed after they decided not to show him alive in the nest.

My assumption is that Boggs and Rains were somewhere being eggmorphed, but probably not Clemens and Andrews since it knew about the queen by then.

Quote from: bobby brown on Sep 23, 2016, 01:21:24 PM
About the whole Morphing thing, Is it really the transformation of one organism into another?

I rather interpret it as the human body being digested/consumed by an extremely aggressive alien Cancer, a Cancer that eventually forms an egg. This is how I interpret the whole thing after reading the initial notes by the filmmakers and Giger.

That's what i guess too.

As i posted in another thread:

I believe Dallas and Brett weren't mutating so much as simply the foodsource of the cocoon/egg/facehugger organism. They were slowly digested by it, which would have been for Dallas incredibly painful.

Quote from: Doctor Ash on Nov 02, 2016, 10:31:56 AM
I believe Dallas and Brett weren't mutating so much as simply the foodsource of the cocoon/egg/facehugger organism. They were slowly digested by it, which would have been for Dallas incredibly painful.

You're right. It's said by Scott, Giger, etc that the crew are used as food for the Alien's young spore (facehugger). The eggs' leathery texture is meant to be akin to dried skin, and what do you see when the egg opens in Alien? Innards; probably the remnants of some poor being that has been rendered into yolk for the Alien spore.

Quote from: Valaquen on Nov 02, 2016, 11:12:11 AM

Quote from: Doctor Ash on Nov 02, 2016, 10:31:56 AM
I believe Dallas and Brett weren't mutating so much as simply the foodsource of the cocoon/egg/facehugger organism. They were slowly digested by it, which would have been for Dallas incredibly painful.

You're right. It's said by Scott, Giger, etc that the crew are used as food for the Alien's young spore (facehugger). The eggs' leathery texture is meant to be akin to dried skin, and what do you see when the egg opens in Alien? Innards; probably the remnants of some poor being that has been rendered into yolk for the Alien spore.

I just wonder why Ridley did put the cocoon scene at the wrong place in the DC. If he had inserted it before the activation of the self destruction, it would have been much better for the pacing of the movie.

Quote from: Valaquen on Sep 25, 2016, 07:42:31 PM

Quote from: Valaquen on Sep 25, 2016, 07:40:30 PM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
This could also explain why the dog alien killed its prey.  For all we know, it had a secluded nest full of eggmorphing corpses that we never got to see.

It did, which was known as the 'meat locker'; hosts (dead or alive) were rounded up to be used as food for the Queen. The scene was never filmed.

Quote from: bobby brown on Sep 23, 2016, 01:21:24 PM
About the whole Morphing thing, Is it really the transformation of one organism into another?

I rather interpret it as the human body being digested/consumed by an extremely aggressive alien Cancer, a Cancer that eventually forms an egg. This is how I interpret the whole thing after reading the initial notes by the filmmakers and Giger.

No, the Alien spore digests the host; the host is not transformed into an Alien or anything. However, before the Queen was a consideration, the eggs themselves were meant to be constructed from the host as a form of protection for the spore/facehugger. In Giger's mind the Alien abducted the crew and deposited them in its nest "the way a spider wraps its victims and sticks it to a wall". To reproduce, the Alien then deposits its spore in the host's body. Next, the creature "drains the blood out of its human prey and [forms] the dried husk into a cocoon, which eventually develops back into an egg."

Quote from Ridley: "Loose on the ship, this new Alien begins to lay eggs in the bowels of the ship. It lives to propagate and must find food for its offspring -- in this case, the crew members of the Nostromo upon whom the young Aliens can feed in their eggs until a new host comes along prodding the eggs. Then the cycle begins all over again."

We can presume that the eggs' 'leathery' texture arise from their origins as cocooned husks, and the viscera lining the interior of the egg further suggest that some living being has been turned inside out and rendered into 'yolk'.

Was there any concept art of the meat locker scene? Any link to further details? I think I've read about it before probably on your blog?

There's not a great deal of concept art for Fincher's Alien 3, I don't think.

Were the cocoons done for the Meat Locker? I can never remember. There's some pictures of those.

Supposedly the idea was scrapped before the cocoons were finished, but allegedly Fincher had the FX team finish one off anyway and he'd sit in it whilst thinking on set.

Honestly not making that up, I read it on (I think) Val's blog.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 10, 2016, 05:34:37 PM
There's not a great deal of concept art for Fincher's Alien 3, I don't think.

Were the cocoons done for the Meat Locker? I can never remember. There's some pictures of those.

Whats the meat locker?

It's the colloquial name for a scene they planned whereby Ripley would discover many of the Runner's victims cocooned, some of them still alive, in the Alien's nest.

It was scrapped before filming.

Quote from: Xenoscream on Nov 10, 2016, 07:59:31 AM
Was there any concept art of the meat locker scene? Any link to further details? I think I've read about it before probably on your blog?

Quote from: JokersWarPig on Nov 10, 2016, 05:50:57 PM

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 10, 2016, 05:34:37 PM
There's not a great deal of concept art for Fincher's Alien 3, I don't think.

Were the cocoons done for the Meat Locker? I can never remember. There's some pictures of those.

Whats the meat locker?

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/the-meat-locker/

Here's a decent quality cap from the Anthology.

Another A3 wasted opportunity, would have made the actions of the creature make a lot more sense.

I remember Fincher being under pressure for set building - I guess this was one of the cuts.

Thanks for the pic Hicks - not sure what it's actually showing, doesn't look like people, I guess just some hive material.

I think the idea is an actor would go inside it.

Quote from: Valaquen on Nov 10, 2016, 05:52:56 PM

Quote from: Xenoscream on Nov 10, 2016, 07:59:31 AM
Was there any concept art of the meat locker scene? Any link to further details? I think I've read about it before probably on your blog?

Quote from: JokersWarPig on Nov 10, 2016, 05:50:57 PM

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 10, 2016, 05:34:37 PM
There's not a great deal of concept art for Fincher's Alien 3, I don't think.

Were the cocoons done for the Meat Locker? I can never remember. There's some pictures of those.

Whats the meat locker?

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/the-meat-locker/

Thanks great read as always... feels like that scene would have been a great addition to the film!

Quote from: Xenoscream on Nov 11, 2016, 06:26:10 AM
Thanks for the pic Hicks - not sure what it's actually showing, doesn't look like people, I guess just some hive material.

I believe it's just the hive material of the cocoons. I don't think there was a great deal of information on that in the set.

Hm..
Knowing that about A3 makes something I saw when I was little make a bit more sense.
My dad had taken me to a comic shop that also had a lot of movie replicas, at the time I was obsessed with star ship troopers and they had the figures there as well as props. On one of the doors in the back of the shop was a (I want to say) life size plastic version of Ripley from A3 with hive material all over her.

I didn't know what the hell it was at the time, I don't even think I had seen Aliens yet at that point. I'm not to sure why it was Ripley covered in it though, I've only seen A3 twice and I don't recall anything like that happening.

Quote from: JokersWarPig on Nov 11, 2016, 01:40:02 PM
Hm..
Knowing that about A3 makes something I saw when I was little make a bit more sense.
My dad had taken me to a comic shop that also had a lot of movie replicas, at the time I was obsessed with star ship troopers and they had the figures there as well as props. On one of the doors in the back of the shop was a (I want to say) life size plastic version of Ripley from A3 with hive material all over her.

I didn't know what the hell it was at the time, I don't even think I had seen Aliens yet at that point. I'm not to sure why it was Ripley covered in it though, I've only seen A3 twice and I don't recall anything like that happening.

Sure it was Ripley? Where was this shop? Somewhere in the Uk I guess?