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Judging by the concept art, is very clear that Neill Blomkamp has plans to introduce the Space Jockeys in the plot of Alien V. Ok, maybe the movie is centered on the Xenomorphs and Ripley, but what if Neill wants to explore something related to the technology of these ancient aliens?

Let me know your thoughts on this.

I don't want them anywhere near the film tbh, after what Ridley Scott did to them in Prometheus...

I'd be very interested in seeing Space Jockeys--as opposed to Prometheus' Engineers--explored, though that might be wishing/hoping against all odds, since I don't think they're going to directly retcon anything from Prometheus or its sequel.

Then again, with the black goo out and about, there's always the potential that the clearly-biological Space Jockey from Alien could be the result of some sort of genetic meddling/experimentation on Engineers, perhaps the result of millions of years of evolution on another, self-altered strain of them, that could feature instead of the humanoid variety.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

If we go by Blomkamps concept art, it's highly likely we will see a space jockey in Alien V. If the company does have the derelict engineer craft, they're going to go straight for the orriery, where the fossilised engineer is. Under there obviously is the humanoid body of an eleven foot engineer. Then we have the holographic ship memory of what went wrong, we also have the distress/warning signal, so that particular engineer craft does have some form of power to emit that. It depends how much fox let blomkamp explore the derelict. it's related to the xeno, so it needs explaning, plus fox know prometheus didn't perform as well as they would have liked it to. So they could use Alien V to indrectly give prometheus 2 a big push by indirectly setting certain things up by maybe answering some questions about that particular jockey and at the same time asking some more questions, but doing it in a more clearly constructed way than prometheus did. 

They could get away with keeping the Jockey shape from the original if they leave us with the impression that the black goo or some other Engineer biological meddling made him the way he is. If the Engineer flight suit in Prometheus is indeed biomechanical, it would be easy to buy into the suit literally fusing with the body of an Engineer (and perhaps the ship as well, which in and of itself was much more biological than Prometheus' Juggernaut) in order to create the being that we saw in Alien. Perhaps the Jockey and the chair are indeed one in the same, the result of genetic meddling farther beyond what was explored in Prometheus.

I'll have my Alien movie without Engineers thank you.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 22, 2015, 02:24:43 AM
They could get away with keeping the Jockey shape from the original if they leave us with the impression that the black goo or some other Engineer biological meddling made him the way he is. If the Engineer flight suit in Prometheus is indeed biomechanical, it would be easy to buy into the suit literally fusing with the body of an Engineer (and perhaps the ship as well, which in and of itself was much more biological than Prometheus' Juggernaut) in order to create the being that we saw in Alien. Perhaps the Jockey and the chair are indeed one in the same, the result of genetic meddling farther beyond what was explored in Prometheus.

This is brilliant and also keeps prometheus and alien in the same universe, whilst letting them have their own stories.

Quote from: Wobblyboddle77 on Feb 22, 2015, 02:34:26 AM

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 22, 2015, 02:24:43 AM
They could get away with keeping the Jockey shape from the original if they leave us with the impression that the black goo or some other Engineer biological meddling made him the way he is. If the Engineer flight suit in Prometheus is indeed biomechanical, it would be easy to buy into the suit literally fusing with the body of an Engineer (and perhaps the ship as well, which in and of itself was much more biological than Prometheus' Juggernaut) in order to create the being that we saw in Alien. Perhaps the Jockey and the chair are indeed one in the same, the result of genetic meddling farther beyond what was explored in Prometheus.

This is brilliant and also keeps prometheus and alien in the same universe, whilst letting them have their own stories.

Can't believe Ridley changed that amazingness in the bottom picture into that goofy looking dickhead in the top one. Hope Blomkamp gives us a real giant biomechanical space jockey this time. There are plenty of story ways to make it happen so that Prometheus doesn't have to be totally redundant.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F8%2F87%2FAlien-comparison.jpeg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130619053050&hash=7be85c186a818c5a98ecf6316465b10e9b080a9b)

I wouldn't mind it if they revisited the derelict.

I'd welcome their presence if it's left as just that. Their presence. Indirectly involved in the plot or just references towards them, and hopefully not much more. I liked the Engineer angle but we have Prometheus 2 for that.

I loved the air of mystery the original Derelict scene conveyed with the fossilized Jockey, but I always feared they would attempt live action, trunk faced aliens. Was quite glad to have the Engineer reveal in Prometheus and I hope they continue to steer away from the trunk faces. I just don't think it would look very good.

I think alien 5 should wrap it up. Be the end all to the ripely arc and they should return to lv426. The circle will be complete. 5 movies is enough. Then after that they should make a standalone series.

Quote from: whiterabbit on Feb 22, 2015, 03:47:49 AM
I think alien 5 should wrap it up. Be the end all to the ripely arc and they should return to lv426. The circle will be complete. 5 movies is enough. Then after that they should make a standalone series.

I agree. Wrap up Ripley's arc and maybe take us to the homeworld.

This is where Scott changing aspects of the jockey for prometheus could come as an advantage for Blomkamp, using that to identify there can be different sizes or variations of the engineer. The one in Alien is huge compared to the one in prometheus, just think in Alien V they could just do a tease. What is under the jockey helmet? its obviously a bigger engineer, how different does it look? is it a higher being engineer? Is it the very engineer we see sculpted as the massive head in prometheus, one the smaller engineers worship? Was it's motive different? Those face hugger eggs were there for a reason, for the xeno to be explained in this film, they will have to explain or atleast address the jockey and the eggs. The company will have taken everything from the ships technology, to the eggs and synthetics are more advanced too, so they will be able to figure out the engineer technology alot quicker and efficiently. It all depends how far Blomkamp and co want explore the xeno origins and this is an Alien film so, but isn't all of this alien within itself? I hope fox give Blomkamp complete creative control  and a reasonable budget to work with.

Space Jockeys, yes.  Engineers, no.

I think it's very possible to see something about Engineers in this film. Ok, let's look at the evidence:

A Juggernaut (It might even be the Derelict)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2F10500383_1414974465469395_6645579288425756285_n_zpsfdc784f7.jpg&hash=4138ecb47f62ee93d848fc013d357d607c7c7cf4)

Although the character is rather small, this humanoid is present in one of the concept art in the instagram.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2FnWFPzDg_zpscecff96d.png&hash=43de6f90dc385632756267325d3fdc1ca2053967)

And finally, the Xeno Esque biomechanical suit. Ok, this might be man made (perhaps through reverse engineering). But then, in the same concept art seems to be written: Pilot Mask - Space Jockey.

So it is quite possible that in some way the suit is related to the technology of the Engineers.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2FXwtw5Ut_zpsf58f6cd4.jpg&hash=b55c1a6840ce090b0cc1040e4ef6cba215f3ed50) 

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 22, 2015, 02:24:43 AM
They could get away with keeping the Jockey shape from the original if they leave us with the impression that the black goo or some other Engineer biological meddling made him the way he is. If the Engineer flight suit in Prometheus is indeed biomechanical, it would be easy to buy into the suit literally fusing with the body of an Engineer (and perhaps the ship as well, which in and of itself was much more biological than Prometheus' Juggernaut) in order to create the being that we saw in Alien. Perhaps the Jockey and the chair are indeed one in the same, the result of genetic meddling farther beyond what was explored in Prometheus.

Only paraphrase a theory that i found on another website:

Here is a dead Cactus...

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2Fsaguaro_cactus_stump_1103_zps5ebcaed1.jpg&hash=be5c4ac6937aba21f4759dca760b6c99e6cd1e25)

And here is one alive...

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2Fsaguaro-cactus-arizona-desert-4073685_zps319dc4a7.jpg&hash=542e652ee4f7ecfa9c68fe54ddf7b742815693c5)

This shows how Organic Material can wither over time, so why cant a Bio-Tech Organic suit do the same?

But otherwise I agree, maybe the black goo has something to do with the organic aspect of the original Space Jockey (besides the aspect of the spacecraft, since he seems to be fused with the machine). It might even be some kind of mutation, who knows.

Interesting point with the cactus.

I'm curious about that humanoid figure. Looks a bit "black gooed" to me, but then, it could just be a human secured by the hive resin. Maybe potential egg morphing?

 

QuoteMaybe potential egg morphing?

That's what I'm thinking.

I'd be all for returning to that, especially seeing how it would operate in tandem with a queen.

Engineers= Space Jockey

Definitely looks like it was inspired by that behind-the-scenes photo...

(https://alienseries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/brettcocoon.jpg)

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 22, 2015, 05:36:31 AM
Definitely looks like it was inspired by that behind-the-scenes photo...

(https://alienseries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/brettcocoon.jpg)

Ooh, thanks for sharing. Don't think I've seen that one before.

I got it from Valaquen's blog...

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/egg-morph/

Gonna have to give that a read, thanks. Thought I had most of the articles on there read but I guess I missed a few.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 22, 2015, 05:36:31 AM
Definitely looks like it was inspired by that behind-the-scenes photo...

(https://alienseries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/brettcocoon.jpg)

Yes! the cocooned dude, I and my poor memory lol, and this deleted yet memorable scene:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5MtzrW1vU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5MtzrW1vU#)

I really have no other choice but to agree with you two, this may be the return of egg morphing! (or at least something resembling that unused concept)

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 22, 2015, 04:33:04 AM
Space Jockeys, yes.  Engineers, no.

This, even though it's just not going to happen.

I would love it if this film re-estabilished the Derelict Pilot as an alien being -- but with things how they are, they'd just stick the engineers in there. Want none of that bald albino crap, thanks.

Op

Had similar questions in my mind. Hope we go the original sj route if do get shown but the concept art suggests engineers.

Great thread

Where does the art suggest Engineers? The ship in the facility looks more like the Derelict than it does the Juggernaut.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 22, 2015, 06:39:02 PM
Where does the art suggest Engineers? The ship in the facility looks more like the Derelict than it does the Juggernaut.

The blobby humanoid looks like an Engineer.

That was my initial impression, but looking at it again I'm reminded much more of egg-morphing.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 22, 2015, 06:53:42 PM
The blobby humanoid looks like an Engineer.

Defo egg-morphing. You can see what looks like a hive in the background and the humanoid is human sized. Ripley's shock and dismay would also suggest that this might be someone she once knew.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1309.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs625%2Fatacamadesert86%2FnWFPzDg_zpscecff96d.png&hash=43de6f90dc385632756267325d3fdc1ca2053967)
(https://alienseries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/brettcocoon.jpg)

Definitely hope it's Egg morphing then. The less bald albino crap, the better.

Space Jockey's can exist in both worlds equally as separate entities. First off, the "engineers" did not creates us, in fact they are us. Our DNA matches because both species are human. Probably copies of some other human. Ha that big head in the giant room probably was the last "true" human. The alien hanging on the wall was simply the tool (read as savior) that allowed him to save their species though its dna donation and his sacrifice.

Why the engineers are 8 foot tall albinos? Well we'd look the same if we were to travel for eons in space. Maybe the engineers were the first to get to lv223, except they took the long route and had yet to invent ftl. They then, upon learning that their god was dead, built a temple to honor him and went right to work doing exactly what we would. In the name of science and religion, make shit and ascend the throne of god.

The space jockey was fossilized and there is no reason that he's not from the human race that predates both earth humans and engineers. The engineers may have just copied the technology they found. Their tech is much more mechanical than organic. Eggs vs urns. The space jockey in alien can be a different entity if they want it too.

The invitation was a warning, paralleling the derelict distress call in Alien. Maybe the space jockey in Alien was heading to the engineer home world to erase that majorly flawed human race.

I think the addition of the Engineers getting involved in Ripley's tale are what makes bringing her  back interesting. Its a good way to explore why the Company wanted the Alien to begin with.

For starters - Why are the Engineers in contact with Ripley? What do they want with us 700 years from now, and how does Ripley's experience with the Alien interfere/interact with that?

These are interesting questions Id like to see explored.

That derelict looks a bit small, and other than it's outline, not very Gigerish.

I think some element of the space jockey should be in the film.

reason being that after all she has been through. i think ripley deserves some answers. She deserves to know more about the alien and make some discoveries along the way.

if not, then its just an endless stream of films where ripley does nothing but wakes up and fights aliens with no advancement in story.

there needs to be an element that changes things up.

i would really like it if say ripley learns some information that the characters in prometheus 1 and 2 do not. like mayby she discovers that the space jockey and engineer are two different species.

Quote from: Gash on Feb 23, 2015, 05:43:53 AM
That derelict looks a bit small, and other than it's outline, not very Gigerish.

It's encrusted in rock.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 02:15:37 PM

Quote from: Gash on Feb 23, 2015, 05:43:53 AM
That derelict looks a bit small, and other than it's outline, not very Gigerish.

It's encrusted in rock.

Speculating a bit more about this concept art, perhaps the Derelict has been buried under the volcanic geology of LV-426 after thermonuclear destruction of Hadley's Hope.

---

Quote from: Gash on Feb 23, 2015, 05:43:53 AM
That derelict looks a bit small, and other than it's outline, not very Gigerish.

We need Gutalin!

Makes sense, especially given its state in the Special Edition of Aliens.

Initially I was wondering if, perhaps, that facility it's being held in is located right on LV-426, but the banner underneath the egg-morph image reads "Weyland-Yutani Headquarters,"  and I'm assuming that the ship is in the same place.

I think it would be great to finally tie-in the events of Prometheus with the Aliens storyline.  I loved Prometheus.  Just a brilliant piece of film-making that maintains mystery and pays homage to its own genre.  Yes it has some flaws, but overall the sum of its parts makes it one of the best films in the Alien series.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Feb 23, 2015, 04:09:37 PM
I think it would be great to finally tie-in the events of Prometheus with the Aliens storyline.  I loved Prometheus.  Just a brilliant piece of film-making that maintains mystery and pays homage to its own genre.  Yes it has some flaws, but overall the sum of its parts makes it one of the best films in the Alien series.

I doubt that this is going to happen because FOX has already said that the new film is a sequel to the Alien franchise. The only possible connection with Prometheus is the Space Jockey (assuming that Space Jockeys and Engineers are the same). And even if the film shows something, I can bet that has nothing to do with the fate of Shaw & David, that's for another story.

For now, the scenario that cross to my mind is similar to the Colonial Marines game: the company managed to find one of those wishbone-shaped craft and now they are studying the ancient artifact. If we are lucky, we will see something about the technology of this ancient extraterrestrial civilization. But the main focus of this new film are the Aliens.

To me it would make most sense if they ran the series in two different directions and then merged them together in a grand finale.

-We find out about the engineers and the home-world through Shaw's story.

-We learn more about the Aliens and we finish Ripley's story properly through the Alien films.

-We finish by merging the two story arcs.  Could get about 9 films out of this...

Quote from: tmjhur on Feb 22, 2015, 02:45:12 AM

Quote from: Wobblyboddle77 on Feb 22, 2015, 02:34:26 AM

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 22, 2015, 02:24:43 AM
They could get away with keeping the Jockey shape from the original if they leave us with the impression that the black goo or some other Engineer biological meddling made him the way he is. If the Engineer flight suit in Prometheus is indeed biomechanical, it would be easy to buy into the suit literally fusing with the body of an Engineer (and perhaps the ship as well, which in and of itself was much more biological than Prometheus' Juggernaut) in order to create the being that we saw in Alien. Perhaps the Jockey and the chair are indeed one in the same, the result of genetic meddling farther beyond what was explored in Prometheus.

This is brilliant and also keeps prometheus and alien in the same universe, whilst letting them have their own stories.

Can't believe Ridley changed that amazingness in the bottom picture into that goofy looking dickhead in the top one. Hope Blomkamp gives us a real giant biomechanical space jockey this time. There are plenty of story ways to make it happen so that Prometheus doesn't have to be totally redundant.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F8%2F87%2FAlien-comparison.jpeg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130619053050&hash=7be85c186a818c5a98ecf6316465b10e9b080a9b)

Honestly, the Prometheus revelations are more interesting artistically, and from a story point of view. There are still Lovecraftian elements, but the Lovecraftian fiction genre is so vapid, and to a degree xenophobic. Lovecraft himself was a very staunch racist, someone who also believed in eugenics. The idea of these foreign things that can't be understood, was an interesting idea at the time, but its been done to death. You can only get away with the tropes central to Lovecraft for so long before you realize you're conception of horror is lazy and relying on the worst and cheapest elements of humanity (fear of the unknown) to provoke a response. This is all subjective, but the best method of bringing horror is to have human experience in it. You don't fear the Alien because it's some outer-space beast you can't reason with, you fear it mostly because of how it reproduces, you get plastered on a wall, your arms and legs cracked, an egg opens up, shoots its seed down into you, and you wake up and a few hours later the single most painful experience of your life occurs, and something bursts through your ribcage and turns your innards into mush. Now, the reason that is horrifying, is because there are relatable aspects (gone over a million times), and not just oooh spooky unknowable space beasts.

There are still Lovecraftian elements, but the Alien series has always had an unsaid background in the occult and perhaps even gnosticism, having the space jockey be human, just furthered those ideas an added layers to the setting that wouldn't be present had you just referred to The Pilot as some lovecraftian space bug. It furthers the potential for horror. Also, seeing as how their tech is biomechanical, if you've ever seen the body of an animal that's rotting, it looks extremely similar and totally unrecognizable and bloated. Considering its fossilized, having its tech turn on itself and decompose, perhaps even consuming the pilot within it, is an explanation that works well enough as to why it looks so different, droopy and bloated.

I really think a ton of people are missing the point as to why the Engineer makes more sense in-universe than just using traditional science fiction and lovecraft-y tropes.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
There are still Lovecraftian elements,

There aren't. There are some light plot similarities between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness -- and even those can be discussed -- but on a thematic level there's zero.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
The idea of these foreign things that can't be understood, was an interesting idea at the time, but its been done to death.

And Vondanikean Ancient Astronauts haven't been used already?

Regardless of that, it was a core theme of the original film and idea. Prometheus made its diametrical opposite and displayed it proudly like it's some fresh, inspired shit -- it is not.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 09:49:54 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
There are still Lovecraftian elements,

There aren't. There are some light plot similarities between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness -- and even those can be discussed -- but on a thematic level there's zero.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
The idea of these foreign things that can't be understood, was an interesting idea at the time, but its been done to death.

And Vondanikean Ancient Astronauts haven't been used already?

Regardless of that, it was a core theme of the original film and idea. Prometheus made its diametrical opposite and displayed it proudly like it's some fresh, inspired shit -- it is not.

You can't separate Alien from Lovecraft like you can't separate Lovecraft from Ancient Astronaut theory and a parody of occult science. The Pilot would have had those elements regardless, and for the most part Prometheus borrowed almost its entire plot from Dan O'Bannon's early drafts of Alien.

There are Lovecraftian leftovers from the realization of those early Alien drafts, but as you say, Lovecraftian tropes are mostly missing, and that's a good direction imo.

In taking those traits, they were stripped of their meaning and their vibe. There's nothing left but an empty shell.

It's not a good direction at all for me. It's drab, unimaginative, and is thematically opposite to the original film.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 09:59:50 PM
In taking those traits, they were stripped of their meaning and their vibe. There's nothing left but an empty shell.

It's not a good direction at all for me. It's drab, unimaginative, and is thematically opposite to the original film.

What meaning is there in Lovecraftian fiction? Lovecraft was an antisocial bigot who hated blacks and saw them as primitive and proposed eugenics as a solution for whatever ideas of degeneracy were popular at the time. He was a creative mind tricked into infantile ideas that blossomed into the fear of the unknown he's so constantly patted on the back for, when almost anyone creative hasn't pushed those aspects out in favor of exploring inwards. Drama, theater, and so film, all have to do with the human elements of them, and these ideas of antagonism of some wholly anti-human being, are wholly incompatible, or all else very boring when further fleshed out. They're interesting so long as you're not trying to write them further. As it is Prometheus is a movie that had potential but wasted on a bad script, but so it remains.

Anyone who explores the occult as Giger had knows that aside from aesthetics, you don't have much left in terms of Lovecraft. You cannot separate Alien from the occult, and a decent understanding of it, has no room for Lovecraftian tropes in it. Everything is human-centric in myth the occult is based, from Kabbalah to Gnosticism. There's just not much you can do with Lovecraft's fiction besides going in circles and worshiping how great its aesthetic is like is always the case with dedicated fiction to it.

Man is searching for extra terrestrial intelligence and life in order to ultimately understand himself better.

It is true that the relationship of the viewer to the antagonist in Alien was one of diametrical opposition.  We are the "self", and the Alien is the "other".  Prometheus did change this relationship for better or for worse.  I choose to think that it was for the better as basically it means that the Alien is not the "other".  Instead, it is part of the "self".  We are the same.  We are also the Alien (at least according to the film).  In this way, the series came full circle.  In finding the Aliens / Engineers we got a glimpse into ourselves.  It amplifies the horror...

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
What meaning is there in Lovecraftian fiction?

On a thematic level? Lots. You're downplaying it something fierce.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
Lovecraft was an antisocial bigot who hated blacks and saw them as primitive and proposed eugenics as a solution for whatever ideas of degeneracy were popular at the time.

Yes and that has nothing to do with the quality and themes of some of his works (some writings reflected it in minor ways, many didn't). You're judging the author, not the work. Fallacious point.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
You cannot separate Alien from the occult, and a decent understanding of it, has no room for Lovecraftian tropes in it.

The original film had its structural foundation firmly rooted in those tropes you are claiming there's no room for.


Lovecraft had an incredibly wide influence on Giger, who was a big enthusiast of his writings, by the way.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
What meaning is there in Lovecraftian fiction?

On a thematic level? Lots. You're downplaying it something fierce.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
Lovecraft was an antisocial bigot who hated blacks and saw them as primitive and proposed eugenics as a solution for whatever ideas of degeneracy were popular at the time.

Yes and that has nothing to do with the quality and themes of some of his works (some writings reflected it, many didn't). You're judging the author, not the work. Fallacious point.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:10:17 PM
You cannot separate Alien from the occult, and a decent understanding of it, has no room for Lovecraftian tropes in it.

The original film had its structural foundation firmly rooted in those tropes you are claiming there's no room for.

It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about. It's almost ironic the motivations behind the engineers are very much something Lovecraft would politically adore to begin with.

The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites. Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point, it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over. You have to inject un-Lovecraftian elements to make these traditional plotlines more interesting. Completely removing it and going more towards more traditional occult foundations, is something unique that benefits the unsaid occult leanings of Alien. The Derelict itself is shaped as something very tribal, almost like a bone or a rune or a fetish. One one arm ends with a symbolic gun and in the other a knife held sideways.

Even Giger's hieroglyphic painting unused that illustrate the Alien's lifecycle, has the Egyptian God Nut surrounding it. The elements were always there, and removing Lovecraft is something that is obviously going to upset some people and step on toes, and for the longest time I was totally hating the idea, mostly relative to how bad the script of Prometheus is. I'm now in sociology, and the way the society of The Pilot works, in relation to the occult, and reactionary thought, and how life on earth relates to that, and the motifs in Alien, are all much more interesting than just relying on Lovecraft wholly.

You can make arguments all day between people who love Lovecraft and who don't about what's bad and what's good, I think The Pilot is ultimately founded on the bizarre and shocking. You can make arguments what is and isn't more bizarre and shocking as how you experience bizarre and shocking.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about.

They might have, but they're ultimately independently developed on a much larger scale.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites.

Those elements were undone the moment they went back to the original conception (at least on a story level; see below).

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

Nothing strictly anti-lovecraftian bled into the final film. What it inherited from Giler/Hill's drafts were more comprehensible character names, more structurally grounded down dialogue (in contrast with O'Bannon's heavily 50s-esque writing) and the figure of an android (which by itself embodies a madman the likes of which can be found in Lovecraft's stories). That's it.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point,

But neither you do have to negate that element, which was structurally fundamental to the original film. Of course it wasn't "plain Lovecraft" but it was based upon it -- not upon a negation of it. :)

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over.

There are loads of things done the Prometheus way, too. It's irrelevant.

There's a palpable difference between expanding on a specific theme and completely negating it. That's what's wrong.

We fear the alien because it is scary... and uses us as vessels for it's kindred. We were happy to meet the engineers because for the most part they looked like us, problem is that they are aliens too. They probably want to use us as vessels as well.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about.

They might have, but they're ultimately independently developed on a much larger scale.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites.

Those elements were undone the moment they went back to the original conception (at least on a story level; see below).

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

Nothing strictly anti-lovecraftian bled into the final film. What it inherited from Giler/Hill's drafts were more comprehensible character names, more structurally grounded down dialogue (in contrast with O'Bannon's heavily 50s-esque writing) and the figure of an android (which by itself embodies a madman the likes of which can be found in Lovecraft's stories). That's it.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point,

But neither you do have to negate that element, which was structurally fundamental to the original film. Of course it wasn't "plain Lovecraft" but it was based upon it -- not upon a negation of it. :)

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over.

There are loads of things done the Prometheus way, too. It's irrelevant.

There's a palpable difference between expanding on a specific theme and completely negating it. That's what's wrong.

That's really not just all Giler added. They added the malevolence of the company, and the android being influenced, by the company, and changed a very 2001 Clean environment, to that of a working class environment. They changed the setting into something more relatable and added social depth to this future society further explored by the art team of Alien in the sets.

Prometheus has the malevolence of the company, the bourgeois, reflected further into our history, in a way. The Engineer's take the idea of economy very literally, come from some supremacist society, with tradition in sacrifice and the extreme of protestant work ethic, where social darwinism ruled. They create worlds and test the men left and if they succeed, they probably are uplifted into Engineer society. Meaning, similar to the birth trauma of Alien, Engineer's reproduce ins such an incomprehensible way, their reproduction takes millions of years until they can make something worthy to talk to. They test their monstrosities on a planet when they're ready, and it's all the ultimate form of eugenics, it's a parody of worth, creating an ubermensch. These worlds they build are are bound by rules from when they begin to evolve, rules that help form a permanent way of life that benefits the plan of the Engineer reproduction, in the form of the morals of world religions, and so forth tradition. Rules that govern us today. You see, the way society classifies people, is still in terms of labor. A human being, is worth so much as he can contribute into society. There is always, a clear underclass and ruling class. The Engineers, have more going on than this, this is just a basic rundown, but the horror that comes from the Engineer, is knowing how influenced our culture and society is from them, more, from everything to how we relate to our parents to the stress of working a job. The ultimate goal of society, is to reach for that Carl Sagan like communal existence where all is equal, without the need to extract labor, and see ourselves as an equal people. Ultimately, this comes into conflict with the traditional dynamics of things, and you have reactionaries opposed to this, always interested in having clearly defined class roles, using whatever ideas benefiting the current culture, from ideas of degeneracy to what have you.

The Engineers are the ultimate reactionaries, their weapons are extensions of the worst traits of life on Earth, and we are encouraged to act like the animals. The only way to reverse the influence these beings have had on us, is to adopt post-structuralist thought, and that would be nearly impossible. Thus the horror of the Engineers. They are the ultimate pinnacle of wealth and worth, in their own logic, and our own. They give themselves this literal economic place, because they are us. Albeit, everything wrong about us. You see this in the confrontation between Weyland and the Engineer, one is the most bourgeois man on Earth, the other the most bourgeois man. Having this plebeian human, claim a status of bourgeois outside of the Engineer's economic plan, is ultimately insulting. And ironic, the Engineer's own tool's of eugenics exterminate them seemingly.

They're a parody of Lovecraft's viewpoints, and ultimately the way this ties in with the Occult, is something far more interesting. You cannot explore these social elements rarely explored in Science Fiction with Lovecraftian plot relations. You just cannot have them coexist. You cannot have the same context or social implications. It expanded upon both ideas founded on by both Giler, Hill, Shushett,  and O'bannon. They work the best in concert.By relating them to social theory, Alien will always stay relevant throughout society.

Excuse the long lengthy wall of text, but tl;dr, Prometheus is founded on good science fiction ideas, it just handled them as poorly as possible through both faults of the writers trying to make it as marketable and unrevealing and unpolitical as possible.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 11:11:24 PM

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about.

They might have, but they're ultimately independently developed on a much larger scale.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites.

Those elements were undone the moment they went back to the original conception (at least on a story level; see below).

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

Nothing strictly anti-lovecraftian bled into the final film. What it inherited from Giler/Hill's drafts were more comprehensible character names, more structurally grounded down dialogue (in contrast with O'Bannon's heavily 50s-esque writing) and the figure of an android (which by itself embodies a madman the likes of which can be found in Lovecraft's stories). That's it.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point,

But neither you do have to negate that element, which was structurally fundamental to the original film. Of course it wasn't "plain Lovecraft" but it was based upon it -- not upon a negation of it. :)

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over.

There are loads of things done the Prometheus way, too. It's irrelevant.

There's a palpable difference between expanding on a specific theme and completely negating it. That's what's wrong.

That's really not just all Giler added. They added the malevolence of the company, and the android being influenced, by the company, and changed a very 2001 Clean environment, to that of a working class environment. They changed the setting into something more relatable and added social depth to this future society further explored by the art team of Alien in the sets.

Prometheus has the malevolence of the company, the bourgeois, reflected further into our history, in a way. The Engineer's take the idea of economy very literally, come from some supremacist society, with tradition in sacrifice and the extreme of protestant work ethic, where social darwinism ruled. They create worlds and test the men left and if they succeed, they probably are uplifted into Engineer society. Meaning, similar to the birth trauma of Alien, Engineer's reproduce ins such an incomprehensible way, their reproduction takes millions of years until they can make something worthy to talk to. They test their monstrosities on a planet when they're ready, and it's all the ultimate form of eugenics, it's a parody of worth, creating an ubermensch. These worlds they build are are bound by rules from when they begin to evolve, rules that help form a permanent way of life that benefits the plan of the Engineer reproduction, in the form of the morals of world religions, and so forth tradition. Rules that govern us today. You see, the way society classifies people, is still in terms of labor. A human being, is worth so much as he can contribute into society. There is always, a clear underclass and ruling class. The Engineers, have more going on than this, this is just a basic rundown, but the horror that comes from the Engineer, is knowing how influenced our culture and society is from them, more, from everything to how we relate to our parents to the stress of working a job. The ultimate goal of society, is to reach for that Carl Sagan like communal existence where all is equal, without the need to extract labor, and see ourselves as an equal people. Ultimately, this comes into conflict with the traditional dynamics of things, and you have reactionaries opposed to this, always interested in having clearly defined class roles, using whatever ideas benefiting the current culture, from ideas of degeneracy to what have you.

The Engineers are the ultimate reactionaries, their weapons are extensions of the worst traits of life on Earth, and we are encouraged to act like the animals. The only way to reverse the influence these beings have had on us, is to adopt post-structuralist thought, and that would be nearly impossible. Thus the horror of the Engineers. They are the ultimate pinnacle of wealth and worth, in their own logic, and our own. They give themselves this literal economic place, because they are us. Albeit, everything wrong about us. You see this in the confrontation between Weyland and the Engineer, one is the most bourgeois man on Earth, the other the most bourgeois man. Having this plebeian human, claim a status of bourgeois outside of the Engineer's economic plan, is ultimately insulting. And ironic, the Engineer's own tool's of eugenics exterminate them seemingly.

They're a parody of Lovecraft's viewpoints, and ultimately the way this ties in with the Occult, is something far more interesting. You cannot explore these social elements rarely explored in Science Fiction with Lovecraftian plot relations. You just cannot have them coexist. You cannot have the same context or social implications. It expanded upon both ideas founded on by both Giler, Hill, Shushett,  and O'bannon. They work the best in concert.By relating them to social theory, Alien will always stay relevant throughout society.

Excuse the long lengthy wall of text, but tl;dr, Prometheus is founded on good science fiction ideas, it just handled them as poorly as possible through both faults of the writers trying to make it as marketable and unrevealing and unpolitical as possible.

I take my hat off to you sir, that is the best analysis and criticism of prometheus i have read. IMO you hit the nail on the head, thankyou for an interesting read.

Quote from: Wobblyboddle77 on Feb 24, 2015, 12:33:37 AM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 11:11:24 PM

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about.

They might have, but they're ultimately independently developed on a much larger scale.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites.

Those elements were undone the moment they went back to the original conception (at least on a story level; see below).

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

Nothing strictly anti-lovecraftian bled into the final film. What it inherited from Giler/Hill's drafts were more comprehensible character names, more structurally grounded down dialogue (in contrast with O'Bannon's heavily 50s-esque writing) and the figure of an android (which by itself embodies a madman the likes of which can be found in Lovecraft's stories). That's it.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point,

But neither you do have to negate that element, which was structurally fundamental to the original film. Of course it wasn't "plain Lovecraft" but it was based upon it -- not upon a negation of it. :)

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over.

There are loads of things done the Prometheus way, too. It's irrelevant.

There's a palpable difference between expanding on a specific theme and completely negating it. That's what's wrong.

That's really not just all Giler added. They added the malevolence of the company, and the android being influenced, by the company, and changed a very 2001 Clean environment, to that of a working class environment. They changed the setting into something more relatable and added social depth to this future society further explored by the art team of Alien in the sets.

Prometheus has the malevolence of the company, the bourgeois, reflected further into our history, in a way. The Engineer's take the idea of economy very literally, come from some supremacist society, with tradition in sacrifice and the extreme of protestant work ethic, where social darwinism ruled. They create worlds and test the men left and if they succeed, they probably are uplifted into Engineer society. Meaning, similar to the birth trauma of Alien, Engineer's reproduce ins such an incomprehensible way, their reproduction takes millions of years until they can make something worthy to talk to. They test their monstrosities on a planet when they're ready, and it's all the ultimate form of eugenics, it's a parody of worth, creating an ubermensch. These worlds they build are are bound by rules from when they begin to evolve, rules that help form a permanent way of life that benefits the plan of the Engineer reproduction, in the form of the morals of world religions, and so forth tradition. Rules that govern us today. You see, the way society classifies people, is still in terms of labor. A human being, is worth so much as he can contribute into society. There is always, a clear underclass and ruling class. The Engineers, have more going on than this, this is just a basic rundown, but the horror that comes from the Engineer, is knowing how influenced our culture and society is from them, more, from everything to how we relate to our parents to the stress of working a job. The ultimate goal of society, is to reach for that Carl Sagan like communal existence where all is equal, without the need to extract labor, and see ourselves as an equal people. Ultimately, this comes into conflict with the traditional dynamics of things, and you have reactionaries opposed to this, always interested in having clearly defined class roles, using whatever ideas benefiting the current culture, from ideas of degeneracy to what have you.

The Engineers are the ultimate reactionaries, their weapons are extensions of the worst traits of life on Earth, and we are encouraged to act like the animals. The only way to reverse the influence these beings have had on us, is to adopt post-structuralist thought, and that would be nearly impossible. Thus the horror of the Engineers. They are the ultimate pinnacle of wealth and worth, in their own logic, and our own. They give themselves this literal economic place, because they are us. Albeit, everything wrong about us. You see this in the confrontation between Weyland and the Engineer, one is the most bourgeois man on Earth, the other the most bourgeois man. Having this plebeian human, claim a status of bourgeois outside of the Engineer's economic plan, is ultimately insulting. And ironic, the Engineer's own tool's of eugenics exterminate them seemingly.

They're a parody of Lovecraft's viewpoints, and ultimately the way this ties in with the Occult, is something far more interesting. You cannot explore these social elements rarely explored in Science Fiction with Lovecraftian plot relations. You just cannot have them coexist. You cannot have the same context or social implications. It expanded upon both ideas founded on by both Giler, Hill, Shushett,  and O'bannon. They work the best in concert.By relating them to social theory, Alien will always stay relevant throughout society.

Excuse the long lengthy wall of text, but tl;dr, Prometheus is founded on good science fiction ideas, it just handled them as poorly as possible through both faults of the writers trying to make it as marketable and unrevealing and unpolitical as possible.

I take my hat off to you sir, that is the best analysis and criticism of prometheus i have read. IMO you hit the nail on the head, thankyou for an interesting read.

Hear, hear.  A good read..

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 11:11:24 PM

Quote from: Omegazilla on Feb 23, 2015, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
It would be fallacious if his themes in his work, did not directly result from his views he was very open and staunch and reactionary about.

They might have, but they're ultimately independently developed on a much larger scale.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
The original film had its structural foundations in Lovecraft, but it explored outwards, in terms of psychological horror, and drifting from the Lovecraftian to the exploration human-centric in Giler's rewrites.

Those elements were undone the moment they went back to the original conception (at least on a story level; see below).

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
Argument can be made as to how much creative bleeding that was un-lovecraft benefited the film.

Nothing strictly anti-lovecraftian bled into the final film. What it inherited from Giler/Hill's drafts were more comprehensible character names, more structurally grounded down dialogue (in contrast with O'Bannon's heavily 50s-esque writing) and the figure of an android (which by itself embodies a madman the likes of which can be found in Lovecraft's stories). That's it.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
You can't just do plain Lovecraft is my point,

But neither you do have to negate that element, which was structurally fundamental to the original film. Of course it wasn't "plain Lovecraft" but it was based upon it -- not upon a negation of it. :)

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
it's been done in pulp magazines and science fiction decades over.

There are loads of things done the Prometheus way, too. It's irrelevant.

There's a palpable difference between expanding on a specific theme and completely negating it. That's what's wrong.

That's really not just all Giler added. They added the malevolence of the company, and the android being influenced, by the company, and changed a very 2001 Clean environment, to that of a working class environment. They changed the setting into something more relatable and added social depth to this future society further explored by the art team of Alien in the sets.

Prometheus has the malevolence of the company, the bourgeois, reflected further into our history, in a way. The Engineer's take the idea of economy very literally, come from some supremacist society, with tradition in sacrifice and the extreme of protestant work ethic, where social darwinism ruled. They create worlds and test the men left and if they succeed, they probably are uplifted into Engineer society. Meaning, similar to the birth trauma of Alien, Engineer's reproduce ins such an incomprehensible way, their reproduction takes millions of years until they can make something worthy to talk to. They test their monstrosities on a planet when they're ready, and it's all the ultimate form of eugenics, it's a parody of worth, creating an ubermensch. These worlds they build are are bound by rules from when they begin to evolve, rules that help form a permanent way of life that benefits the plan of the Engineer reproduction, in the form of the morals of world religions, and so forth tradition. Rules that govern us today. You see, the way society classifies people, is still in terms of labor. A human being, is worth so much as he can contribute into society. There is always, a clear underclass and ruling class. The Engineers, have more going on than this, this is just a basic rundown, but the horror that comes from the Engineer, is knowing how influenced our culture and society is from them, more, from everything to how we relate to our parents to the stress of working a job. The ultimate goal of society, is to reach for that Carl Sagan like communal existence where all is equal, without the need to extract labor, and see ourselves as an equal people. Ultimately, this comes into conflict with the traditional dynamics of things, and you have reactionaries opposed to this, always interested in having clearly defined class roles, using whatever ideas benefiting the current culture, from ideas of degeneracy to what have you.

The Engineers are the ultimate reactionaries, their weapons are extensions of the worst traits of life on Earth, and we are encouraged to act like the animals. The only way to reverse the influence these beings have had on us, is to adopt post-structuralist thought, and that would be nearly impossible. Thus the horror of the Engineers. They are the ultimate pinnacle of wealth and worth, in their own logic, and our own. They give themselves this literal economic place, because they are us. Albeit, everything wrong about us. You see this in the confrontation between Weyland and the Engineer, one is the most bourgeois man on Earth, the other the most bourgeois man. Having this plebeian human, claim a status of bourgeois outside of the Engineer's economic plan, is ultimately insulting. And ironic, the Engineer's own tool's of eugenics exterminate them seemingly.

They're a parody of Lovecraft's viewpoints, and ultimately the way this ties in with the Occult, is something far more interesting. You cannot explore these social elements rarely explored in Science Fiction with Lovecraftian plot relations. You just cannot have them coexist. You cannot have the same context or social implications. It expanded upon both ideas founded on by both Giler, Hill, Shushett,  and O'bannon. They work the best in concert.By relating them to social theory, Alien will always stay relevant throughout society.

Excuse the long lengthy wall of text, but tl;dr, Prometheus is founded on good science fiction ideas, it just handled them as poorly as possible through both faults of the writers trying to make it as marketable and unrevealing and unpolitical as possible.

Props man.

Quote from: NetworkATTH on Feb 23, 2015, 11:11:24 PM
That's really not just all Giler added. They added the malevolence of the company, and the android being influenced, by the company, and changed a very 2001 Clean environment, to that of a working class environment. They changed the setting into something more relatable and added social depth to this future society further explored by the art team of Alien in the sets.

It's admittedly been a long time since I've read the full drafts, so yeah. None of these elements are strictly anti-lovecraftian, though. Unless for all this discussion we used a different conception of the term 'lovecraftian'.

The rest of your post is a very personal interpretation of things and an interesting one at that -- I doubt the filmmakers put as much thought in the entire Prometheus project as you did in that single text -- but it remains a very personal reading complete with gap filling. "Lovecraftian plot relations" wouldn't have influenced such a theme, if actually present, either.

Didn't agree with the under-sized Greek marble statue reboot,bring back the original giant elephant dude.

Well, it's just what I've come to believe they were implying based upon being a sociology major, and trying to figure how a culture like the Engineer's would work. I am really to lazy to cite all the ideas present, but it's basic social mumbo jumbo. And from that point, I just find the ideas I left with a bit more interesting, and I really hope that's what they were going for. I mean, these themes are present especially in Blade Runner. I tend to think of Ridley Scott as not a total moron, just dabbling in this and that. And judging from everyone in production, on the final product saying "Not every idea discussed made it on film" or the script being vapid, is a result of having to hide these ideas. Or leave them in implications. As well as Lindeloff having the habit of making a film "marketable" in his scripts. I honestly think my analysis of their culture is correct, but it is a personal one, I admit.

Quote from: Elmazalman on Feb 24, 2015, 05:59:36 AM
Didn't agree with the under-sized Greek marble statue reboot,bring back the original giant elephant dude.

Won't happen any time soon.  Too many people are still convinced that Ridley Scott's a genius and believe that contradicting his take on his own creation would be like remaking the Star Wars prequels.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 24, 2015, 07:38:33 AM

Quote from: Elmazalman on Feb 24, 2015, 05:59:36 AM
Didn't agree with the under-sized Greek marble statue reboot,bring back the original giant elephant dude.

Won't happen any time soon.  Too many people are still convinced that Ridley Scott's a genius and believe that contradicting his take on his own creation would be like remaking the Star Wars prequels.

As it is, there really isn't anything genius about the space jockey to begin with. It's a beautiful piece of scenery. Symbolic, aesthetic, and shocking. It raises a barrage of questions. Aside from that, you just move past it. It's a setting, not so much a character.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 24, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
Won't happen any time soon.  Too many people are still convinced that Ridley Scott's a genius and believe that contradicting his take on his own creation would be like remaking the Star Wars prequels.

Ridley really needs reigning in. He lacks the strong collaborative team he had (and needed) with Alien. Without some truly talented people around him, I really think his films will continue to fail.

NetworkATTH, I really enjoyed that interpretation. Almost made me like Prometheus. It was very interesting but still...somewhat filling in of the gaps. Prometheus was a film that had some true potential but ultimately did very little with its time. I don't mind the Ancient Astronaut idea - I'm used to it with Stargate. However, I feel the move away from the biomechanical is what harmed that film.

If the Engineer's suited had appeared closer to Giger's aesthetic, rather than an imitation of it, it might have faired better.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 24, 2015, 08:44:50 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 24, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
Won't happen any time soon.  Too many people are still convinced that Ridley Scott's a genius and believe that contradicting his take on his own creation would be like remaking the Star Wars prequels.

Ridley really needs reigning in. He lacks the strong collaborative team he had (and needed) with Alien. Without some truly talented people around him, I really think his films will continue to fail.

NetworkATTH, I really enjoyed that interpretation. Almost made me like Prometheus. It was very interesting but still...somewhat filling in of the gaps. Prometheus was a film that had some true potential but ultimately did very little with its time. I don't mind the Ancient Astronaut idea - I'm used to it with Stargate. However, I feel the move away from the biomechanical is what harmed that film.

If the Engineer's suited had appeared closer to Giger's aesthetic, rather than an imitation of it, it might have faired better.

It's less that I think of at in an interpretation, that it all just neatly falls into theory, and from there, you can make very obvious conclusions plot-wise and elsewhere. I don't like Prometheus as a film either. I think however, that the Engineers as an idea, are more Giger than just leaving visualization of his ideas to the strict Lovecraft interpretation. His work is sexual, and a lot of it has undertones of some sort of business. Like a nightmare boardroom. I think, the film could have been executed better to reflect the ideas I am very sure are in the film. It's hard because trying to convey that there really are these very interesting ideas within the subtext of the film, without resorting to academic jargon is almost impossible.

You could just go on and on, but I think I'm alone in reading to much that might not be there that just coincidentally falls into place in something I find interesting I'm majoring in.

In my opinion, the Jockies lead people to the facility, to pass the test, and perhaps become them, and work and continue the method past where they failed. It's a desperate idea probably ending in catastrophe. Heaven to these beings is the end of civilization, paradise is, the social class they fit in, a cosmic social class.  It all ties in with the bureaucracy tones throughout the film. I'm really tired, and not explaining this well at all, sorry if it seems like I'm rambling, it just seems like I'm getting somewhere with what they were trying to say, but it's really too out there for general audiences. Especially talking about it casually.

@NetworkATTH, that was impressive. Too bad you were not the writer of Prometheus, because as Omegazilla said, you are investing more thoughts that the filmmakers.