This is a successor to the "I like to think of the original Aliens comic series as an alternate timeline" thread, here's a link: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=32287.0 Here are the important posts from that thread:
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 02, 2010, 01:13:13 AM
Officially, the one with Billie and Wilks is the canon version. I just want Newt and Hicks to live. Newt still got to live, at least, after the incident with Spears. At the very least, Newt should have lived past Alien 3. It would make sacrificing Ripley easier. Newt would be her legacy and she would fight the aliens after Ripley had passed.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2010, 02:00:41 AM
It would've made Ripley's sacrifice harder because if Newt was alive, Ripley would have more to live for.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 02, 2010, 02:05:13 AM
There would probably be an emotional sequence as Ripley and Newt say their goodbyes. It would also enhance Ripley's sacrifice. But in all honesty, I kind of prefer Alien 4 to be around an older Newt fighting aliens rather than a Ripley clone #8.
What do you think?
Well Im a big, big fan of Alien 3 so I wouldnt change much in it, I would only corrected some mytho mistakes and plotholes but other than that Id leave everything intact. It wouldve been better and more humane to have just Ripley eject from the ship, but on the other hand the movie would loose the strong emotional punch and there wouldnt be anything to trigger Ripley's metamorphosis into a masculine, emotionally burned out person.
Just leave the autopsy out of the movie. That would be my only request. Its just sick and really unhealthy. I would never want to see , even in a movie, an autopsy on a child. There are limits
I've always thought the manner of Newt and Hicks disposal was a bit cheap and nasty - but the world of Alien IS nasty. And the film recovers from it, thanks mainly to Newt's autopsy.
As per the thread that spawned this, I can't imagine how you'd manage to get Newt into a situation to fight Aliens. At least with Ripley it wasn't just about confronting demons - she was pragmatic enough to see an opportunity to get her flight status reinstated.
Perhaps, it would be a situation like in Aliens Earth Hive, the military forces an alien expert to go bring back a specimen. Know that I'm no great storyteller and this is a little on-the-spot, but perhaps she could be the lead in an AvP storyline. The predators enjoy hunting the aliens and somehow Newt would be in the middle of the action.
Nooooooo. That would actually connect the two series.
No, I meant in an alternate storyline. We're not connecting anything. Hicks is still dead, as is Ripley. I'm just talking about a minor adjustment where Newt lives to the end of Alien 3. In the original comics, there was no Alien 3 at all.
Assuming she survived the EEV crash Newt's hope of salvation died when Ripley did.
What do you mean when you say "hope of salvation"?
If Ripley dies she'll be pretty much f**ked up for life.
Assuming she wasn't literally f**ked up by Golic.
How will she be f**ked up if Ripley died? They had a connection, yes, but wouldn't Newt eventually get past it? How would Golic have f**ked her up at all? The attempted rape sequence could have had an effect on her had she been present at the time of the incident. But besides that and Ripley's death, I don't know how she could have been further affected by the prisoners or staff.
QuoteHow will she be f**ked up if Ripley died?
You missed the movie where everyone she's ever known in her life was brutally killed?
Then had she lived - her surrogate mother is then brutally killed. That's not going to screw with her head just a tad?
QuoteHow would Golic have f**ked her up at all?
It's hinted in the film that Golic is a child murderer (if not worse).
Plus a child is going to be a prime target for a bunch of murderers and rapists - even ones who've taken a vow of celibacy.
Had she lived or not, bad writing wouldn't have made a difference. It's all speculation really. I'd rather Alien3 used wholly original characters, rather than the series becoming the contrived adventures of the same, worn out ones.
Quote from: SM on Jun 03, 2010, 02:23:32 AM
Plus a child is going to be a prime target for a bunch of murderers and rapists - even ones who've taken a vow of celibacy.
If they kept Newt in the infirmary, which they probably would have had she lived, she would have been relatively safe, at least until the alien arrived and killed Clemens. But then again, Ripley most likely would have used herself as a living shield to protect her and we all know why the alien wouldn't go throught Ripley. After that event, nobody would be interested in Newt, just on how to survive. The fact that she had already been through a lot at Hadley's Hope probably would have made her more resilient to mental trauma provided by the prisoners. Ripley's death...perhaps, another loss that Newt will eventually have to get over.
Well this is a matter of opinion clearly.
Mine: The Alien Saga should have ended with Cameron's "Aliens". It would have been the ideal ending.
Alien 3 killed 2 characters (Hicks & Newt) right from the start, who had real charisma and potential in them. The Audience learned to really like them in Aliens, if not even love them.
A third Alien movie should have never been set on a planet, where the premise (here Newt & Hicks) would not be suitable.
Regarding the topic question: Yes.
Unless we see her fully-grown as Carrie Henn is now... ;D
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 03, 2010, 04:48:20 PM
Had she lived or not, bad writing wouldn't have made a difference. It's all speculation really. I'd rather Alien3 used wholly original characters, rather than the series becoming the contrived adventures of the same, worn out ones.
To be fair they did a good job in recreating Bishop's overwhelmingly nice personality. They might have been as consistent with New and Hicks
They would have found a way to provide an excuse or something. Like the third film takes place years after the second film. They, also, could have used a different actress. I agree with Tangakkai, if it wasn't for the DNA reflex shown in the third film (ability of an embryo to take traits from its host), the Alien franchise would have been better off without a third film.
QuoteUnless we see her fully-grown as Carrie Henn is now...
*shudders* :D
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 03, 2010, 05:28:43 PM
They would have found a way to provide an excuse or something. Like the third film takes place years after the second film.
Actually it takes place 2 weeks after the second film if im not mistaken. I cant remember the source of this information tho
I meant by making a different storyline. My bad, I misunderstood OmegaZilla; I thought he was saying yes that Newt should be killed off or that Alien 3 shouldn't exist. I'm sorry, my mistake. :( So, in proper response to the previous posts, yes, it would be better if we see Newt at the same age she was at during Aliens.
QuoteI cant remember the source of this information tho
Me. ;D
Seriously, getting back on topic. Would the story of Alien 3 have been better served had Newt survived to the very end of the film. Would we like to see an older Newt as the main protagonist in the fourth film rather than the Ripley clone #8?
No and, personally, no.
I would.
What SiL said. For all its faults I like Alien3 as it is.
It would've been pretty strange to watch a different actress play Newt (living, that is) in Alien 3. That's one of the good things about her not being in the movie much, IMO. An exception would've been some kind of storyline set a few years after Aliens so Carrie Henn could be involved.
And I agree with SM. Alien 3 ain't perfect, but I still love it.
Quote from: SM on Jun 04, 2010, 03:15:11 AM
What SiL said. For all its faults I like Alien3 as it is.
Let me join your club too
If Newt lived it would have taken the Grimm tone away.
Am I the only person here who's mournful of Newt's death?
One of few. Very few.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 04, 2010, 09:40:34 PM
Am I the only person here who's mournful of Newt's death?
No, I'm with you on this matter.
I just so loved Aliens and the ending was so perfect. I thought the bond between Ripley & Newt was portrayed so beautifully... and then I watched Alien 3 and omg, she's just dead, I mean just dead... what the Hell? The spine of the Aliens movie just broken in a matter of seconds... I felt so betrayed!
and since then... well I only own Alien & Aliens from the Alien franchise... that pretty much says it all about me...
I was sad she died. But I think it made Alien3 a better film. She took one for the team.
The whole point of Alien 3 was to be depressing though....
Quote from: SM on Jun 04, 2010, 11:16:04 PM
I was sad she died. But I think it made Alien3 a better film. She took one for the team.
She didn't take one for the team, she was collateral damage for the alien facehugger(s).
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Quote from: SM on Jun 05, 2010, 01:42:05 AM
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/4/14/129157480399137911.gif
lol
Quote from: Private Hudson on Jun 04, 2010, 11:24:29 PM
The whole point of Alien 3 was to be depressing though....
For the kind of people who like to laugh at kids running into glass doors and can get their rocks off to school shootings, I guess that's a good thing. (Okay, I can laugh at the former but not the latter).
Yeah, like Romeo & Juliet. Tragedy is for sadists.
Quote from: Mus on Jun 05, 2010, 05:24:29 PM
Yeah, like Romeo & Juliet. Tragedy is for sadists.
Thing about Romeo & Juliet is, the tragedy is the climax. When it's the intro.. well, imagine R&J beginning with their deaths, and the rest of the play winding down to the deaths of all the Montague's and Capulet's. Again, as I've said, Alien3's problem isn't the cheap way it handles Aliens, it's plagued by script problems and Ripley being redundant.
How is Ripley being redundant?
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 05, 2010, 07:26:41 PM
How is Ripley being redundant?
I wrote a massive post about it before explaining my dissatisfaction with her. Let me look it up and I'll repost it.
EDIT: Here:
QuoteAlien3's fundamental flaw for me isn't killing Newt & Hicks (and be honest, that's not the only reason a lot of people didn't like the movie) but the problem, for me anyway, was bringing Ripley back into the fold for another... I don't wanna say 'adventure', but, y'know. In ALIEN, Ripley was someone in the background who came to the fore in a time of stress and danger. She was the unlikely hero. In ALIENS she was the avenging 'mother', Rambolina, full-on heroine. In ALIEN3 she was dressed down and put through the wringer - but it felt too familiar and worse, because of that familiarity with the character there was a feeling of despair (good), sadness (good) and, for me... boredom. I was bored of Ripley. I'd already seen her character through several arcs, what more could they do to make her grow? Nothing - They stripped her down, the whole movie essentially a backwards walk into the furnace. Ripley fought to eradicate the Xeno - She'd already done this for survival in ALIEN and as a mental purge in ALIENS. She sacrificed herself - for what? Everyone she knew was dead, she was utterly despondent. She wasn't dying for an ideal or for a person, she was dying because she was going to take out that Xeno no matter what - admirable, but something she'd done already in ALIEN/ALIENS, sacrificing herself seemed more like a clause in a contract than a legitimate character move, but of all the things in ALIEN3, I actually think that Ripley's death was a poignant one still.
To me, Ripley in ALIEN3 was the start of diminishing returns. I would have preferred a new protag - no Hicks, Newt, no one. Start fresh. Give the audience no familiar ground aside the creature (even then, it'd be redesigned). No familiar ground is better than having familiar ground torn up in front of you. Again, I'm being subjective.
and
QuoteRipley's character takes a strange turn, she's almost bipolar. The moment she's told of the death of Hick's & Newt (or HIX N' NOOT) she jumps up naked, demands to see the EEV, and then throws a sultry line at Clemens, "Should I go like this? (naked. Paraphrased)." Once she sees the EEV cryotubes and the funeral she's in tears. Brilliant acting! Next scene she's flirting with Clemens again, and then sleeps with him (huh?). She didn't even know this guys sob story yet, she thought he was still a prisoner - in a facility for rapists and murderers no less. Hmm. Ripley, to me, took one step forward, one leap backwards (right into a furnace) in this movie.
I don't know how Ripley is redundant, when basically the whole movie is about Ripley's inner and outer struggle. If you ask me, they could've just called the movie
Ripley.
QuoteRipley fought to eradicate the Xeno - She'd already done this for survival in ALIEN and as a mental purge in ALIENS. She sacrificed herself - for what?
So that the Company wouldn't get their hands on it? Y'know, what she was toting about throughout the whole movie. She could've just said "f**k it" and let the Runner go rampant, fatigued as she was, but she teamed up with a bunch of sociopaths to eradicate it. Then she goes and jumps in the fire to get rid of the embryo, to prevent the Company from getting to it. I'd say that's an ideal. There was definitely a personal grudge towards the Alien on her part, but the way I see it, that just further validates Ripley's part in the movie, as the struggle becomes more than just some guy figthing a scary alien.
QuoteRipley's character takes a strange turn, she's almost bipolar. The moment she's told of the death of Hick's & Newt (or HIX N' NOOT) she jumps up naked, demands to see the EEV, and then throws a sultry line at Clemens, "Should I go like this? (naked. Paraphrased)."
I wouldn't call it sultry, more like total indifference. She doesn't care about this strange man seeing her naked, she just wants to she the EEV. Why? Denial. When she hears the news about Hicks and Newt, she just blocks it out, and demands proof. She doesn't want to deal with their death, nor does she want to deal with yet another disappointment in general, so she just blocks out emotion. It's a defense mechanism against overhelming sorrow.
QuoteOnce she sees the EEV cryotubes and the funeral she's in tears.
And this would be where she finally comes face to face with reality. The ship is a wreck. They really are gone. She' forced to accept it, it's all too much, she collapses.
QuoteNext scene she's flirting with Clemens again, and then sleeps with him (huh?). She didn't even know this guys sob story yet, she thought he was still a prisoner - in a facility for rapists and murderers no less. Hmm.
As you said, everyone she knew is dead. Yet another tragedy has struck, she is totally alone and vulnerable - in a facility for murderers and rapists no less - so she turns to the closest person to her, this seemingly nice man in a facility full of crooks, for comfort. I don't claim to be a master of psychology, but this is basically how I perceive her to experience her situation and I think it makes sense. So, as I said earlier, really this film truly
is about Ripley. Her struggle with loss, her struggle with the Alien, and now her struggle with the Company. I find it to be a beautifully tragic closing chapter in the Ripley story, and at the same time nicely illustrates the destructiveness of the Alien. There's just no escaping it, it will tear your life apart.
Oh. By the way. How long is the timeline that
Aliens spans over?
Quote from: Mus on Jun 05, 2010, 10:32:09 PM
I don't know how Ripley is redundant, when basically the whole movie is about Ripley's inner and outer struggle. Ripley.
Everything Ripley goes through in Alien3, she's gone through in Aliens. Loss, nightmares, fear, pain, despondency:
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Aliens also offered hope and then closure
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Alien3 redid this, and offered closure of its own, which was unnecessary, all the emotional bases had been covered. Ripley's reappearance would be a rewarmed arc. It's no secret that every time a writer keeps Ripley out of their script post-Aliens, the execs put her back in as a money draw. We need a new character with fresh attitudes.
QuoteSo that the Company wouldn't get their hands on it? Y'know, what she was toting about throughout the whole movie. She could've just said "f**k it" and let the Runner go rampant, fatigued as she was, but she teamed up with a bunch of sociopaths to eradicate it.
Really, she was well aware that she would be dead if she didn't get rid of the Xeno, as par her Nostromo experience. Once she finds out she's impregnated, her first aim is suicide. Thankfully, Dillon bullies her out of it.
QuoteThen she goes and jumps in the fire to get rid of the embryo, to prevent the Company from getting to it. I'd say that's an ideal. There was definitely a personal grudge towards the Alien on her part, but the way I see it, that just further validates Ripley's part in the movie, as the struggle becomes more than just some guy figthing a scary alien.
She was dead anyway. She knew well that the Company wouldn't keep her alive. With no one left alive, and no one to live for, Ripley's sacrifice amounts to nothing more than a tick on a plot check. Alien killed - tick. I can't praise a sacrifice based on plot resolution. Had there been more incentive for her to co-operate with WY, then I can see the sacrifice. But WY made it pretty clear what they wanted with the Alien.
QuoteAnd this would be where she finally comes face to face with reality. The ship is a wreck. They really are gone. She' forced to accept it, it's all too much, she collapses.
I know why she cries. It's horribly juxtaposed with her flirting and sleeping with Clemens.
QuoteAs you said, everyone she knew is dead. Yet another tragedy has struck, she is totally alone and vulnerable
As in Aliens. All family and friends dead. Reputation and career in tatters. Branded delusional. Then we have resolution. What I'm saying is - it's all been done before. Give us new characters.
Quotethis seemingly nice man in a facility full of crooks, for comfort.
A prisoner in a facility for rapists, murderers, and child molesters. That fact never escaped her. Ripley is, allegedly, not stupid.
QuoteHer struggle with loss, her struggle with the Alien, and now her struggle with the Company. I find it to be a beautifully tragic closing chapter in the Ripley story, and at the same time nicely illustrates the destructiveness of the Alien. There's just no escaping it, it will tear your life apart.
To me, we'd seen it before.
Really, just didn't feel like we needed Ripley again.
The franchise would have been better if Newt survived and replaced Ripley.
Agreed. Newt taking up the torch from Ripley would have kept the franchise fresh, plus she would have had been a completely different heroine. Kind of like how Sarah Connor is made to quickly change into a badass yet her son John is groomed to fight and survive from the get go. Except in this case John doesn't believe in his destiny but Newt would have had no doubts as to hers.
Yeah, no more deluded teenager trying to escape responsibility. No more reckless behavior, just "what needs to be done".
Having Newt replace Ripley is trite. Other franchises do that sort of thing, so it's expected. Plus, there shouldn't be any logical reason for Newt to be in future Alien sequels.
Like Ripley, Newt would want nothing to do with the aliens and would stay home. The only reason why Ripley was in the second and third films was because of the oil slick produced by Burke.
Newt would only be a different heroine in that she had a different name and was blonde. She'd still wind up being the same kind of character as Ripley if they dragged her back into dealing with Aliens, or worse -- They'd do what Whedon almost did and turn her into Buffy.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 06, 2010, 09:34:17 PM
Having Newt replace Ripley is trite. Other franchises do that sort of thing, so it's expected. Plus, there shouldn't be any logical reason for Newt to be in future Alien sequels.
Like Ripley, Newt would want nothing to do with the aliens and would stay home. The only reason why Ripley was in the second and third films was because of the oil slick produced by Burke.
That's probably the excuse that Ripley had before Aliens. Newt was very young when she first encountered the aliens, she could have grown up to be a very different person from Ripley.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 06, 2010, 09:49:16 PM
That's probably the excuse that Ripley had before Aliens.
What excuse are you talking about? Ripley made no excuse. She told Burke to f**k off and he manipulated her into going back.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 06, 2010, 09:49:16 PM
Newt was very young when she first encountered the aliens, she could have grown up to be a very different person from Ripley.
So? Everyone who had dealt with the aliens and who were in their right minds didn't want to have anything to do with them. There isn't anything to suggest that Newt would want to tango with them.
I don't think there's a big enough bribe that would get Newt back anywhere an Alien. Both Riple and Newt would've had nothing further to do with the Alien had FOX not demanded Ripley's return. I believe the series was to turn to Hicks for its new hero, right?
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 06, 2010, 10:06:56 PM
I don't think there's a big enough bribe that would get Newt back anywhere an Alien. Both Riple and Newt would've had nothing further to do with the Alien had FOX not demanded Ripley's return. I believe the series was to turn to Hicks for its new hero, right?
Well, I was using the narrative approach (otherwise known as "in-universe"); relying on the Machiavellian machinations of Weylan(d) Yutani as opposed to those of Fox.
I was responding to the claim that a grown up Newt would just be the same in personality as Ripley. I wasn't giving an excuse to say that Newt would want to fight the aliens again.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 06, 2010, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 06, 2010, 09:49:16 PM
That's probably the excuse that Ripley had before Aliens.
What excuse are you talking about? Ripley made no excuse. She told Burke to f**k off and he manipulated her into going back.
That's my point exactly. Ripley probably told herself that she was never going back to the aliens until Burke intervened.
Ripley wanted an escape from the nightmares and from Gateway (by getting her flight status back).
And at the end of Alien and at the very beginning of Aliens she thought she was never going to see an alien, let alone aliens, again until that happened with Burke and everything.
Unlike with Ripley, the Company doesn't have anything to bribe Newt with.
Ripley wanted her life back. She was given an option of that happening by going back to LV-426.
What are they going to hold over Newt? Her family's dead, her friends are dead, Ripley's dead. There's no incentive to go back into the firing line.
How about revenge for her family long ago slaughtered? How about Ripley, her surrogate mother who sacrificed her life to preserve mankind? There are many possibilities where an incentive can form.
Sure, if she has a death wish.
Did Ripley have a death wish when she returned to LV-426 in Aliens?
She wasn't even sure there were Aliens.
She had to be reasonably sure. Either way, she knew there was a possibility that she would face her old nightmare again.
It would be interesting to watch Newt, as a child, cope with a case of post-traumatic stress that is on a scale several times greater than anything Ripley ever had to endure. She probably wouldn't do that well.
As her mind unravels, hallucinations of dead soldiers, family, and Ripley begin to plague her waking moments. The return of the xenomorphs sends her damaged psyche over the edge and the fight to remain in reality becomes even more desperate.
Then somewhere down the line, she meets up with Clone Ripley and things get even more fun :P
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 07, 2010, 04:21:19 AM
Either way, she knew there was a possibility that she would face her old nightmare again.
With the promise of several heavily armed soldiers between it and her.
I doubt she thought that it would make much of a difference, Newt didn't. Remember; Ripley was trying her best to worn those at her hearing at the beginning of Aliens of the danger that the aliens possessed.
Ripley felt fairly safe with the marines around - otherwise she never would've left the APC (or Sulaco for that matter).
Besides she wouldn't have gone back to "wipe them out" if she didn't think the marines would actually be able to wipe them out.
She thought wrong :P
Remember Ripley's talk with Vasquez during the premission brief? She had doubts over the group's ability to manage themselves.
To approach anything with absolute confidence is to approach your doom.
My entire family could be eaten by sharks, I would not become a shark hunter.
Just sayin'.
Point is: she knew that there was probably a good chance that the marines wouldn't be able to protect her or even themselves for that matter.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 07, 2010, 05:15:17 AM
My entire family could be eaten by sharks, I would not become a shark hunter.
Just sayin'.
Revenge isn't the only incentive that could be used on Newt. There could be a scenario where she finds out what WY is up to and that they intend to sacrifice another colony to the aliens and Newt decides that she won't be able to live with herself if she lets another colony suffer the fate that hers did years ago.
She didn't know there was a 'good chance'.
She was worried at their cockiness and Gorman's inexperience.
She also hesitated to step into the colony in the deleted scene of Aliens (it was put back in, in the Special Edition).
...and? :-\
Hardly speaks for her not trusting the marines. Just that she was going into a freaking deserted spooky colony.
And that she trusted the marines enough to provide her with some protection.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 07, 2010, 05:21:39 AM
...and? :-\
Hardly speaks for her not trusting the marines. Just that she was going into a freaking deserted spooky colony.
I doubt that that was the only reason why Ripley hesitated.
I actually hated how Hicks and Newt were written off so quickly in A3. I was always a fan of Hicks and it would have been great had Ripley & Bishop had her own escape pod and Hicks and Newt had their own. Thus they could always pick up a movie revolving around Hicks and Newt.
Well.......what can I say?
You a fan of Alien³, Alien³? :D
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 07, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
You a fan of Alien³, Alien³? :D
Till death.
It still baffles me why some people can't understand the true beauty of the third (and what I consider final) instalment of the alien franchise. Alien is about birth, Aliens is about life and Alien³ is about death. It's a wonderfully woven trilogy.
That's an interesting viewpoint. Though, the more I think about it, the more I find the manner of their deaths rather cheap and bothersome. I didn't use to think so. It certainly delivers a punch, but a brief info screen of the dead, I don't know, it seems like a waste of good characters.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 07, 2010, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 07, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
You a fan of Alien³, Alien³? :D
Till death.
It still baffles me why some people can't understand the true beauty of the third (and what I consider final) instalment of the alien franchise. Alien is about birth, Aliens is about life and Alien³ is about death. It's a wonderfully woven trilogy.
The way I see it, Alien is about birth, (however horrific), death, sex (implied), and horror. Aliens is about the same, except it's terror in place of horror, and the sexual undertones are lessened, though amplified in the Queen, who represents ghastly motherhood, her little hands are breast substitutes, it's also about hope, mothers and their children (Ripley and Amanda, then later Newt, and the Queen and her children), and reconciliation with oneself. Alien 3 is about death and, I'm not sure... Hopelessness.
I'd help you.
It's about Depression. :P
On the topic - no.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 07, 2010, 05:59:49 PM
I'd help you.
It's about Depression. :P
Aw, I'm depressed enough as it is ;D
QuoteIt still baffles me why some people can't understand the true beauty of the third
I daresay the dodgy script has something to do with it.
For me, the primary reason is because of the death of all the characters from Aliens.
That's pretty well over and done with in the first few minutes. It gets better. Slowly.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 07, 2010, 05:15:51 AM
Revenge isn't the only incentive that could be used on Newt. There could be a scenario where she finds out what WY is up to and that they intend to sacrifice another colony to the aliens and Newt decides that she won't be able to live with herself if she lets another colony suffer the fate that hers did years ago.
All by her widdle self?
Quote from: Lost Predator on Jun 07, 2010, 03:35:31 PM
I actually hated how Hicks and Newt were written off so quickly in A3.
I'm sure there were many script drafts written before that happened. It wasn't so quick.
:P
Quote from: Lost Predator on Jun 07, 2010, 03:35:31 PM
I was always a fan of Hicks and it would have been great had Ripley & Bishop had her own escape pod and Hicks and Newt had their own.
And the Implausibility Meter gets maxed out.
QuoteAll by her widdle self?
And a GE minigun.
QuoteAll by her widdle self?
Not necessarily, she could get help from other characters that the franchise will provide.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 07, 2010, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 07, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
You a fan of Alien³, Alien³? :D
Till death.
It still baffles me why some people can't understand the true beauty of the third (and what I consider final) instalment of the alien franchise. Alien is about birth, Aliens is about life and Alien³ is about death. It's a wonderfully woven trilogy.
Hmm, thats a nice way of putting it
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 12:35:58 AM
Not necessarily, she could get help from other characters that the franchise will provide.
Like expensive, over-muscled mercenaries? All-too-convenient characters who had just happened to have lost a relative or friend at Hadley's Hope? Any other trite character types who are hell-bent on killing some aliens that were destroyed in the explosion (and possibly the eggs in the derelict, nevermind that the Company decided to pursue Ripley instead of going back to the derelict)?
You make things sound so unbelievable, maledoro. Newt could have made some friends in her life or she found some people who are willing to help her for the greater good or for some other reason. It doesn't matter; point is that had Newt become the main protagonist in her own Aliens flick, characters would have been provided to help her.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
You make things sound so unbelievable, maledoro.
ME?Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
Newt could have made some friends in her life or she found some people who are willing to help her for the greater good or for some other reason.
"Let me get this straight, Becky..."
"It's 'Noot', dammit!"
"
Noot. You want me to help you blow apart some creatures that wiped out a team of Colonial Marines. What's in it for me?"
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
It doesn't matter; point is that had Newt become the main protagonist in her own Aliens flick, characters would have been provided to help her.
For starters, she wasn't a protagonist; all she did was take over Jones's role from the previous film. Secondly, you can't just wantonly put characters in a movie without a plausible reason for their existence within the narrative. (Scratch that. Hollywood's been doing that for the last few decades. I retract my last statement.)
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 08, 2010, 10:22:39 PM
For starters, she wasn't a protagonist; all she did was take over Jones's role from the previous film.
Newt's only purpose in Aliens was to build on Ripley's character, as she overcame the loss of her daughter. It had nothing to do with taking over the character of Jones, unless Ripley was taking out her motherly love on Jones in the first place but I never got that feeling.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 08, 2010, 10:35:06 PM
Newt's only purpose in Aliens was to build on Ripley's character, as she overcame the loss of her daughter. It had nothing to do with taking over the character of Jones, unless Ripley was taking out her motherly love on Jones in the first place but I never got that feeling.
Anybody who loves their pet(s) tend to put themselves into a parental role, to some degree. That said, Noot wasn't a protagonist. Jones = pet. Noot = noisy pet.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 08, 2010, 10:40:29 PM
Noot = noisy pet.
Haha classic.
I agree Newt wasn't a protagonist, she just had a large role.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 08, 2010, 10:45:58 PM
I agree Newt wasn't a protagonist, she just had a large role.
At least she had lines in English.
:P
But woe to those who deem her a protagonist!
I like the fact that in Aliens, Ripley almost begins to rebuild what's left of her life that has been essentially destroyed by the Xenomorph. She finds a potential love interest with Hicks, and finds someone she can dote her motherly love of in Newt. When they are both killed off in Alien 3 it's like the final kick in the crotch (figuratively speaking) to Ripley, especially with the emphasis of that it happened so quickly and she has to deal with it. It finally destroys her mentally until she becomes a calculating emotionless husk of what she once was, single-mindedly hunting the Xenomorph down as she has nothing left to lose. Had f**king ressur-shitty-ection not ruined this trilogy of culminating events it would've had way more emotional impact on Ripley's character than having her dragged out into another film and cheapening everything that happened before. Though of course that has been discussed a million times before.
So i personally feel that Newt dying was a beneficial direction for the trilogy to take.
Quote from: spiegal on Jun 08, 2010, 11:03:27 PM
I like the fact that in Aliens, Ripley almost begins to rebuild what's left of her life that has been essentially destroyed by the Xenomorph. She finds a potential love interest with Hicks, and finds someone she can dote her motherly love of in Newt. When they are both killed off in Alien 3 it's like the final kick in the crotch (figuratively speaking) to Ripley, especially with the emphasis of that it happened so quickly and she has to deal with it. It finally destroys her mentally until she becomes a calculating emotionless husk of what she once was, single-mindedly hunting the Xenomorph down as she has nothing left to lose. Had f**king ressur-shitty-ection not ruined this trilogy of culminating events it would've had way more emotional impact on Ripley's character than having her dragged out into another film and cheapening everything that happened before. Though of course that has been discussed a million times before.
So i personally feel that Newt dying was a beneficial direction for the trilogy to take.
Spoken like a true prodigy.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 08, 2010, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
You make things sound so unbelievable, maledoro.
ME?
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
Newt could have made some friends in her life or she found some people who are willing to help her for the greater good or for some other reason.
"Let me get this straight, Becky..."
"It's 'Noot', dammit!"
"Noot. You want me to help you blow apart some creatures that wiped out a team of Colonial Marines. What's in it for me?"
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 08, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
It doesn't matter; point is that had Newt become the main protagonist in her own Aliens flick, characters would have been provided to help her.
For starters, she wasn't a protagonist; all she did was take over Jones's role from the previous film. Secondly, you can't just wantonly put characters in a movie without a plausible reason for their existence within the narrative. (Scratch that. Hollywood's been doing that for the last few decades. I retract my last statement.)
I'm asking what if Newt became a protagonist in a sequel had she survived Alien 3. How would characters join Newt in fighting the aliens? Did anyone read Aliens Cauldron? There are plenty of ways for aliens to just emerge in a character's life.
If Newt was to be a believable protagonist then the Aliens would need to come to her - not vice versa.
Just like in Aliens Cauldron.
EDIT: Here's an interesting idea which I believe most of the people here will hate. Newt could be one those ultra-savants that were mentioned in the above book. Though, the one in that story was mentally handicapped, perhaps the aliens could have a similar reaction to Newt. Ultra-savants were able to memorize large amounts of information, but can't make leaps of logic and their brain is somewhat uncoordinated with their bodies since their brain has other things to do. I'm not saying that Newt has to be mentally handicapped or anything, but it could explain why she survived that long. In Aliens Cauldron, the aliens treated the ultra-savant like she was their queen. Then again, I haven't read Aliens Newt's Tale yet so I don't have all the details of her experiences on LV-426.
She survived that long because she knew her way around the airducts and was small enough to fit in areas that others couldn't.
Once she was out in the open she was just as much of a target for the Aliens as anyone else.
What about the facehuggers? They were definitely smaller than Newt and could access all the same places she could.
If the Aliens had used huggers - Newt would've been toast. Since she wasn't, they didn't.
If the Aliens knew Newt was there, they would've simply smashed holes in the airducts to get her. Nevermind sending huggers in. For whatever reason Newt was able to successfully hide from them,
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 09, 2010, 01:31:13 AM
Just like in Aliens Cauldron.
EDIT: Here's an interesting idea which I believe most of the people here will hate. Newt could be one those ultra-savants that were mentioned in the above book. Though, the one in that story was mentally handicapped, perhaps the aliens could have a similar reaction to Newt. Ultra-savants were able to memorize large amounts of information, but can't make leaps of logic and their brain is somewhat uncoordinated with their bodies since their brain has other things to do. I'm not saying that Newt has to be mentally handicapped or anything, but it could explain why she survived that long. In Aliens Cauldron, the aliens treated the ultra-savant like she was their queen. Then again, I haven't read Aliens Newt's Tale yet so I don't have all the details of her experiences on LV-426.
I never thought of it like that, but I REALLY like that idea. I remember in Aliens
Labyrinth that humans under the influence of certain drugs can cause Aliens to hesitate in their attack, as according to the graphic novel they communicate on an almost psychic level. Whether it's canon or not I think it is REALLY cool, and we be a fantastic way of explaining how she survived for so long
Quote from: spiegal on Jun 09, 2010, 08:31:04 AM
and we be a fantastic way of explaining how she survived for so long
I dont think its needs that much od tweaking to have a reason why she did. Its fairly easy. When the attacks started she went into the vents and stayed there. Aliens couldnt go in and lost the sense of her once she started moving away more and more around the entire complex which is enormous. Once the last group of barricaded colonists have been captured, Jim Cameron explained that the aliens all went back to the hive which is under the Amtosphere processor and fell into something like a bear's winter sleep and they remained dormant untill marines arrived. So the entire complex was free of aliens, as also evidenced in the movie when the marines dont find a trace of any of them. Even tho she was safe just walking around since aliens were all far away in the hive and in deep sleep, she was still moving through vents collecting food and everything that she needed. As simple as that
Quote from: StrangeShape on Jun 09, 2010, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: spiegal on Jun 09, 2010, 08:31:04 AM
and we be a fantastic way of explaining how she survived for so long
I dont think its needs that much od tweaking to have a reason why she did. Its fairly easy. When the attacks started she went into the vents and stayed there. Aliens couldnt go in and lost the sense of her once she started moving away more and more around the entire complex which is enormous. Once the last group of barricaded colonists have been captured, Jim Cameron explained that the aliens all went back to the hive which is under the Amtosphere processor and fell into something like a bear's winter sleep and they remained dormant untill marines arrived. So the entire complex was free of aliens, as also evidenced in the movie when the marines dont find a trace of any of them. Even tho she was safe just walking around since aliens were all far away in the hive and in deep sleep, she was still moving through vents collecting food and everything that she needed. As simple as that
I think I worded that badly, There's absolutely nothing wrong with how Newt survived in the film, in fact I personally love the way the Aliens all went back to the hive while she eked out a living off the scraps she could find in the Compound. What I meant is that I really like the other explanation which, while a bit more far fetched, could be just as awesome as what was portrayed in the film.
oh god yes!
it was absolutely unnecessary for newt and hicks to die!
kill off a little innocent girl and have a f**king autopsy of her?! thats HORRIBLE!
Therefore suitable for a horror movie, non?
Aliens wasn't really a horror movie, it demonstrated human closeness during times of great desperation. Alien 3 ruined all that and undid everything Aliens did to the plot; all they attempted to do was just to make another horror movie, a copycat of Alien 1. Don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a pretty pathetic attempt to make a successful movie, just by copying the theme from an already popular prequel.
So instead they shoulda copied Aliens right?
Like how Ripley spends the first half of the film being a lonely outsider whom no one takes seriously until the shit hits the fan and she has to lead them and- oh wait...
If I had to change anything about Alien3 I'd remove the "Oh finally the Alien is dead we can all relax and have a nice cup o- OH SHIT THE ALIEN IS STILL ALIVE AND JUMPING OUT OF THE LAVA OH SHIT COVER IT IN WATER AHH SHIT NOW IT'S EXPLODED DRAMATICALLY ahh that's better" because it was just your typical ridiculous cliché horror device and it really cheapened the whole film somewhat. Every single cheap horror film has a scene where the audience is supposed to think that the "bad guy" is dead but really he isn't and he jumps out at a quiet moment... really ruined it for me.
I think most people are forgetting that the Alien series is supposed to be dark, it's supposed to be frightening and it's not supposed to make you feel happy. People going "OH NO NEWT HAS DIED THAT MADE ME SAD THEREFORE THE FILM IS RUBBISH" have completely forgotten this important part of the entire horror genre. It's not supposed to make you happy. The deaths of Ripley's friends reminded the audience after the lighthearted end to Aliens that this is not supposed to be Ripley's happy ending and whining about how much it ruins the series is only proving to everybody that the film is extremely successful in what it attempts to present. A horror film. Remember that.
Quotef I had to change anything about Alien3 I'd remove the "Oh finally the Alien is dead we can all relax and have a nice cup o- OH SHIT THE ALIEN IS STILL ALIVE AND JUMPING OUT OF THE LAVA OH SHIT COVER IT IN WATER AHH SHIT NOW IT'S EXPLODED DRAMATICALLY ahh that's better" because it was just your typical ridiculous cliché horror device and it really cheapened the whole film somewhat. Every single cheap horror film has a scene where the audience is supposed to think that the "bad guy" is dead but really he isn't and he jumps out at a quiet moment... really ruined it for me.
You mean like when at the end of the Alien it's on the shuttle and at the end of Aliens when the Queen is on the dropship?
Alien3 BROKE the mould by not having the Alien escape a massive explosion by sneaking aboard a spaceship only to be subsequently blasted out into space. But fortunately for you, Resurrection returned to the familiar formula.
Yes, you're exactly right, Alien and Aliens did almost the exact same thing... but it just didn't feel quite so cheap.
The "Alien is in the escape shuttle" in Alien actually added to the film, because it... I suppose it added to the image of the creature, that it can sneak aboard ships and through small spaces without you even noticing, hiding in corners without you even realising. Even much more so in Aliens because it eventually led to the exo-suit/queen fight etc etc.
In Alien3, you see the alien covered in lava. (Well, molten lead if I remember correctly) That, in my opinion, is a dramatic enough end. That would have satisfied me. The music accompanying it sounded triumphant. I would have even enjoyed that end to the alien. The following scene of "lava covered alien climbing a ladder" was barely a few minutes long, and added hardly anything to the film. It made the alien seem even more "unbeatable", I suppose, but by this point in the franchise, it's unnecessary. Made the film feel much easier to hate.
And I hated the almost carbon-copy of the "formula" in Alien Ressurection, because it had become so predictable. Although to be honest I would have preferred it to be a regular alien rather than the Godawful "newborn", which by that point in the film had already had enough screen-time.
All ten minutes of it.
Just find it odd that Alien3 gets criticsed when it actually does something different.
Quote from: SM on Jun 21, 2010, 03:33:40 AM
Just find it odd that Alien3 gets criticsed when it actually does something different.
When you say something different, do you mean the same as Alien 1?
What film was that?
If you're referring to the first film, what precisely is the same - beyond the fact there's only one Alien, which is pretty superficial?
The thing is, different doesn't automatically equal good.
It can do, sure, but to be perfectly honest, Alien3 really doesn't try to be much different. Same premise as Alien - alien facehugger unknowingly impregnates someone (person/dog/cow), alien is set loose on dark, damp, enclosed location with lots of corners and pipes around the place, people don't really know what to do, panic ensues, nobody has any guns, everyone gets picked off one by one, Ripley survives in the end (except not really - she survives the Alien, the rest is just the coda). Oh, and the "big bad company" wants control of the Alien. Oh, and they try to use fire but it doesn't really work. Oh, and a black guy sacrifices himself trying to protect a pretty lady. Not really all that much different to Alien1 if you ask me, except that the suspense is less effective and the details surrounding the core elements are changed to encompass the previous plotline.
Don't get me wrong, I actually rather enjoy Alien3, especially the extended edition with the added scenes providing much-needed character development. I'm just aware of all of its faults.
I'm also aware of the faults. Though I don't agree with most of your listed faults.
The first half of Alien3 is nothing like Alien for starters. It's much more like Aliens.
Quote from: SM on Jun 21, 2010, 04:00:21 AM
I'm also aware of the faults. Though I don't agree with most of your listed faults.
The first half of Alien3 is nothing like Alien for starters. It's much more like Aliens.
I guess you're right - Ripley wakes up by herself without anybody that she knows, she must integrate into a completely new scenario/society, except in Aliens she's in civilised society, and in Alien3 she's on a prison colony with an alien running about... the two films start to branch erratically by this point.
Atmospherically speaking, Alien3 is much more in the vein of Alien, and I just feel like Alien3 is an attempt to return to the "roots" of the franchise, so to speak. You have one alien, one facehugger, one crew, dimply lit, damp location, people getting picked off one by one, a plan is attempted involving fire which results in disaster and death, another plan is executed which is thought to have succeeded but then is revealed to have failed, but quick-thinking on the part of the protagonist results in final destruction of the Alien. In fact, both the films end with exactly the same dialogue. (Ripley's signing-off message). If that's not a coded message about an intended parallel to Alien, then I don't know what is. Of course that could just be coincidence.
No it's supposed to be a bookend and a sign off for the character and series.
Quoteanother plan is executed which is thought to have succeeded but then is revealed to have failed, but quick-thinking on the part of the protagonist results in final destruction of the Alien
Long bow there.
The final act of Alien is more like Aliens rather than Alien3. Except they have to escape a self induced explosion in a small ship rather than one that was caused by accident, only to have an Alien stow away.
Quote from: SM on Jun 21, 2010, 04:21:31 AM
No it's supposed to be a bookend and a sign off for the character and series.
Source?
-snip- reinterpreting post
Yes. That's why I said "The final act of Alien is more like Aliens rather than Alien3."
QuoteSource?
The film. Wasn't it blatantly obvious? At least signing off the series as far as Ripley was concerned, to rephrase slightly.
Apologies for that, misinterpreted.
No, the film doesn't count as a source. You didn't state a fact of the film, you stated a fact of the motivations behind the writing process, of which you currently haven't provided a source.
Well, to me the motivations could not be more obvious as presented in the film.
If you want to interpret it something else, go right ahead. Not sure why since it's simply Ripley signing off to her life, rather than just a transmission like she did in Alien. It's reinterpreting an earlier beat.
All right, let's go back to the original topic. This is about Newt, not Ripley. Let's forget what made Alien 3 great about killing off everyone except Ripley. Wouldn't you have preferred a sequel with an older Newt as the main character rather than a Ripley clone, or even a Newt clone? Though a Newt clone would have been interesting, if she was anything like Clone #8 it could even have been cool. Newt was already a survivor and becoming "something of a predator" could have shown us a side to Newt that was in Aliens that we didn't get to fully see.
What would be the rationale behind cloning Newt?
I dunno, I just read that it was a possible plot back before the movie came out.
Which thankfully wasn't pursued.
Let's forget whether or not the plot would have been improved or not by that idea. Wouldn't it have been interesting to explore this hidden side of Newt that we never fully saw in Aliens? Newt had to go through a lot and probably had to do things necessary to ensure her own survival. She would have kicked ass with those Betty smugglers.
Not really sure what you're getting at.
Newts very existance would've been pointless in 2381.
Ripley was cloned because she was packing a Queen, and was due to be disposed of once they had it. Cloning Newt using the same accelerated process they did for Ripley would've produced a mindless adult vegetable.
Would've fit right in with every other Joss Whedon character.
ZING!!!
Though not completely unfair...
Quote from: SM on Jun 22, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
Not really sure what you're getting at.
Newts very existance would've been pointless in 2381.
Ripley was cloned because she was packing a Queen, and was due to be disposed of once they had it. Cloning Newt using the same accelerated process they did for Ripley would've produced a mindless adult vegetable.
I'm not the one who came up with the plot. If the plotline existed at one point, then it is the producers that you should be asking that question. I'm just saying that I think it would be interesting to see that side of Newt rather than Ripley.
What 'side'? She wouldn't be Newt because she wouldn't have any of Newt's experiences. She's just someone who looks like Rebecca Jorden.
Ripley clone #8 had inherited memories of the original. Despite whether we like it or not, she had some of the experiences and therefore the personlality of the original Ripley. Though I will admit it may only be a very, very small piece.
"An unexpected benefit of the genetic cross"
If Newt was never carrying an embryo - no memories.
If they'd cloned a Ripley #9 and completely seperated the human and Alien genetic sequences, #9 would've had no memories, no acid blood, no hypersenses, no super strength, no fast healing.
I was just presenting a "what if" situation with Newt having Alien genes.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 22, 2010, 11:33:48 PM
I was just presenting a "what if" situation with Newt having Alien genes.
As
SM had pointed out, you're gonna need more that just that to go on. I personally don't see the need to have another person cloned with alien DNA mixed in with them. The first time was bad enough.
Well I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, it wasn't terribly popular.
Quote from: SM on Jun 23, 2010, 02:24:05 AM
Well I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, it wasn't terribly popular.
I was going to add the qualifier "for me", as in, "The first time was bad enough
for me", but I was afraid some dimwit would think that I was saying I had alien DNA mixed into me while I was cloned. (It was another type of DNA.)
Other than that, I'm sure Ripley 8 had her fans.
Well... one at least... :-\
Jesus Christ.
And ET.
In fact most of the resurrection club, I'm sure they loved her.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 23, 2010, 02:33:57 AM
Jesus Christ.
I'll have to ask
Its Game Time about that. They chat everyday.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 23, 2010, 02:33:57 AM
And ET.
I can see that.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 23, 2010, 02:33:57 AM
In fact most of the resurrection club, I'm sure they loved her.
Only the name is spelled "Ressurection" whenever a club member posts it.
I'm not adding another person, I'm talking about replacing Ripley #8 with a Newt clone in the A:R plotline. Frankly, I think that story would have been more interesting that a Ripley resurrection. I'm not that great a fan of cloning, if they want to bring a character back I'm sure many of us prefer it to be the original and not a copy. A Newt clone could explore the survivor aspects of Newt's character. Newt was a survivor in Aliens, who knows how much of her sanity was replaced by the need to become like the aliens; a survivor who hides in the dark and uses evasion to survive in a hostile environment. As for why; if you people really do need that much of a reason then perhaps we could say that the Queen embryo was once inside of Newt but then left. The blood from the autopsy was then used to clone Newt, the original host, rather than Ripley.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 02:37:57 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 23, 2010, 02:33:57 AM
In fact most of the resurrection club, I'm sure they loved her.
Only the name is spelled "Ressurection" whenever a club member posts it.
Why? ???
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
I'm not adding another person, I'm talking about replacing Ripley #8 with a Newt clone in the A:R plotline.
That would be adding another person. Ripley 8 wasn't Ripley.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
A Newt clone could explore the survivor aspects of Newt's character.
Being small and shrieking on cue.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
Newt was a survivor in Aliens, who knows how much of her sanity was replaced by the need to become like the aliens
A parasite.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 02:37:57 AM
Only the name is spelled "Ressurection" whenever a club member posts it.
Why? ???
Ask the misspellers.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 02:42:24 AM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
I'm not adding another person, I'm talking about replacing Ripley #8 with a Newt clone in the A:R plotline.
That would be adding another person. Ripley 8 wasn't Ripley.
I meant if the scientists chose to clone her instead of Ripley. We'd get to see more of her character since she would inherit some of the original's memories and experiences making her something close, but not the exact copy of Newt.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 02:42:24 AM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
A Newt clone could explore the survivor aspects of Newt's character.
Being small and shrieking on cue.
???
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 02:42:24 AM
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
Newt was a survivor in Aliens, who knows how much of her sanity was replaced by the need to become like the aliens
A parasite.
???
QuoteI meant if the scientists chose to clone her instead of Ripley. We'd get to see more of her character since she would inherit some of the orignal's memories and experiences making her something close, but not the exact copy of Newt.
So more or less what we ended up with.
I think the plot would have been better. We don't really learn much about Newt in Aliens while we know lots about Ripley. People who haven't read Newt's Tale wouldn't know what she's been through and the clone would embody many of her survivor traits and mix them with the thing she fears most: alien. Note: I haven't read Newt's Tale either so don't judge me thinking I did. I hope to read it, though, I would love to learn more about one of my most favorite characters. :)
You don't learn much more about Newt in the comic because there is no more to learn.
She's a kid who's small enough to fit in airducts that the other kids - and more importantly the Aliens - can't, which enables her to survive.
If she were cloned a la Ripley8 she'd be a full grown woman with the mind of a 6 year old. Either that or the cloning process would see her stop growing when she reaches the size she was when she was 6. Which means the guns she'd need to use would be bigger than her.
I was thinking more on the lines of her being a teenager. It would be more fun to see the basketball scene with her. The smugglers would come over, Johner would wonder if she's over 18, then decide to screw it and try to do her anyway. He would come over to her and make the same moves she did with Ripley, then Newt would pown him. She would even dodge the bar that Christie uses since she's a more capable survivor than Ripley. She would take him out as well and then regard the other smugglers who by now are frightened out of their wits. Wren and Gediman come by and put a stop to all the "fun" and Newt would leave just like that, studying the smugglers who by now are more than a little freaked out by her.
Once again, essentially what we ended up with.
As for Newt being a more capable survivor - you can't compare to Ripley. Ripley has 30 years of life experience over Newt's 6. Which comes to the fore when it's shown Ripley actively trying to combat the Alien, rather than simply running and hiding like Newt does. And Newt's running eventually counts for naught when she runs out of places to run.
Do you think Ripley would be able to survive for what was it; one month with the aliens? With no weaponry or any kind? Despite what you guys have to say, Newt had to have some skill, not just her small size to defend herself; why else would she not have been facehugged (may I remind you that the facehuggers are definitley small enough to fit inside the vents)?
And the only huggers in the colony were in stasis tubes.
If the Aliens knew where she was, they would've got her. There was a massive amount of lot of luck involved in Newt's survival.
The queen is a constant facehugger-maker. The aliens could have known where she was, they just couldn't get to her. That's what I call skill, not luck on Newt's part.
If the Aliens knew where she was they would've got to her. Like they did when they attacked Ops.
Since they didn't get her, they didn't know. It was pure luck on her part that was was small enough to crawl down vents in order to evade them. Also setting up a nest of her own in a location where the Aliens couldn't track her. She couldn't have any way of knowing the Aliens couldn't find her there - ergo she got lucky.
Of course it wasn't all luck, but that was a large factor.
Luck is a good factor in any operation. Anyway, why are we arguing over this? Has anyone read Newt's Tale? That would provide us with a good approximation of what happened, that is if you are willing to accept this material.
Of course I've read it - hence me saying there's nothing more to learn about Newt.
The second half of the comic is a retelling of Aliens, the first half is what happened at the colony during the infestation which doesn't quite marry up with the film.
Still, Newt was a survivor; you have to give her that. The alien abilities of a clone would only add to that.
Ripley was a richer character to begin with though. Way richer than Newt.
*Shrugs* Maybe. I'll sleep on it. :D
Honestly, I have always liked the Aliens script where Aliens 3 was just Ripley's bad dream and it featured Hicks and the USCM.
A script for Aliens, that takes place AFTER it's sequel?
also if they were so high set about cloning people, I would have also cloned Hicks as he had some experience in dealing with them and along with Ripley it would have been interesting to see how they would have reacted to each other in AR .
True, but I don't think they'd clone Hicks since he didn't have an embryo inside of him and they didn't know about inherited memories until clone #8 and even then that was probably because of the Alien DNA in her.
Quotealso if they were so high set about cloning people, I would have also cloned Hicks as he had some experience in dealing with them and along with Ripley it would have been interesting to see how they would have reacted to each other in AR .
A Hicks clone would have no memories of the original.
As was detailed in the film.
(Sigh) Alien 3 was a great movie (yes a great movie) and I was more then happy with the end result. The funeral of hicks and Newt was an intense, beautiful and emotional sequence that I feel is one of the centerpieces of the entire series.
HOWEVER..
Since I loved the characters, BOTH of them surviving would have been a treat.
Of course it could have been Hicks going Mano y Mano with the runner in the lead pit (although he probably would have lasted longer than Dillon)
Newt, she would have been the perfect protagonist after 3 as was probably mentioned earlier.
Her becoming a marine and running into aliens would have at least made for an interesting 4th film.
Imagine little Newt in Marine gear. Just awesome.
QuoteImagine little Newt in Marine gear.
I don't wanna!!
:o
Okay, grown up Newt then.
Nah, she served the series better by dying.
I agree with that. I was just speaking hypothetically. Alien 3 was a perfect capper, but we all still got sad when Newt and Hicks died, and though it would have hurt the film and the series at large, we still would like to imagine what it would have been like if they didn't die.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 23, 2010, 03:01:31 AM
I meant if the scientists chose to clone her instead of Ripley. We'd get to see more of her character since she would inherit some of the original's memories and experiences making her something close, but not the exact copy of Newt.
It's unlikely that it could happen twice.
Quite. They were trying to completely seperate the genetic sequences. Eight attempts all produced gradually improving accidents. Had they tried again, based on the previous improvements, Ripley #9 might've have been completely human (or at least more human than #8 - and therefore be less Ellen Ripley).
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 23, 2010, 11:36:35 PM
It's unlikely that it could happen twice.
Huh? What do you mean? ???
As per above.
Do you mean it's unlikely that they could clone Newt twice? If so, why would they?
No it's unlikely they could get the same result twice due to the genetic drift.
Yeah, so? Why would they even want to clone Newt twice?
Why would they even need to clone her once?
To get the embryo that she was incubating, this would be so if we assume that she was the initial host and the chestburster simply slithered/crawled out of her at death and into Ripley.
...
How is this still going after 13 pages...
Newt is a very likable character; many of us wished she were still alive, the rest of you don't for the sake of the plot.
Quote from: predxeno on Jun 24, 2010, 01:53:26 AM
Newt is a very likable character; many of us wished she were still alive, the rest of you don't for the sake of the plot.
The rest of us don't want her alive for the sake of our ears.
Huh? ???
Newt screams a lot throughout Aliens.
I wasn't bothered by it.
Someone else may.
She's a little girl. Little girls scream. Viewers with sisters may be more immune to any annoyance.
I am a viewer with 3 little female cousins... ;D
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 26, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
She's a little girl. Little girls scream.
Not like
that. She was inhuman.
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 26, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
Viewers with sisters may be more immune to any annoyance.
I have a sister, and I still couldn't stand hearing Newt screech.
Isn't Newt really just more of a plot device than a meaningful character?
Quote from: Mus on Jun 26, 2010, 04:35:07 PM
Isn't Newt really just more of a plot device than a meaningful character?
Nah.
Quote from: Mus on Jun 26, 2010, 04:35:07 PM
Isn't Newt really just more of a plot device than a meaningful character?
Yep.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 04:32:50 PM
I have a sister, and I still couldn't stand hearing Newt screech.
I have
five.
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 26, 2010, 04:43:14 PM
I have five. [sisters]
Any of them look like Kim Kardashian or Joana Prado, and can drink half a bottle of tequila and still carry on a coherent conversation?
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 26, 2010, 04:43:14 PM
I have five. [sisters]
Any of them look like Kim Kardashian or Joana Prado, and can drink half a bottle of tequila and still carry on a coherent conversation?
Sorry, three are under 13, and my big sister has a beard:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi104.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm191%2FIzzys88%2Fthisissparta.jpg&hash=4e064a49cde875f5c8362777664f4ccfa87d978e)
Come on Doro, it's obvious that he means little sisters. I kinda know how he feels since I have 4 cousins, 3 of which are screamin' little girls. :)
Quote from: Valaquen on Jun 26, 2010, 04:53:53 PM
Sorry, three are under 13
Too bad. I have my standards. See my last post.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 04:54:19 PM
Come on Doro, it's obvious that he means little sisters.
I don't care how tall they are, Ega. For all we know, they could be 15 years older than him.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 04:59:35 PM
I don't care how tall they are, Ega. For all we know, they could be 15 years older than him.
Small, Little of Age, Screaming Sisters.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:03:14 PM
Little of Age, Screaming Sisters.
Newt screamed enough for
all girls.
I know worse.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:06:28 PM
I know worse.
That's still no excuse for her to scream in no less than five channels of sounds.
She is a little girl in an environment full of motherf**kin' Giger Fantasies that made her witness the death of her own parents and brothers, what would you do in her clothes as a 6 years old girl?
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:10:37 PM
full of motherf**kin' Giger Fantasies
Not in
this movie.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:10:37 PM
what would you do in her clothes as a 6 years old girl?
I don't want any part of
that! What would
you do in her clothes? Hmmm?
:o
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 05:14:02 PM
Not in this movie.
Gnah. What about "Giant Penis Headed Robot Lizards"?
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 05:14:02 PM
I don't want any part of that! What would you do in her clothes? Hmmm?
:o
Oh, you! Let's build it another way.
What would you have done if you were her?
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:16:15 PM
Oh, you! Let's build it another way. What would you have done if you were her?
If my folks told me that I had to live on that hellhole (and, yes, this is before discovering the aliens), I would threaten to get Child Services on their asses and stay the hell on Earth.
>_> In the situation presented in the film...
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:20:24 PM
>_> In the situation presented in the film...
Which one? She screamed at every turn!
Witnessing the death of men/women by the hands of giant Penis headed Robot Lizards. What would a 6 years old girl do? Scream in fear. That's what they do, for the love of... of me!
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:24:14 PM
That's what they do, for the love of... of me!
Little girls scream because they love you? You must be taken out of the equation...
They scream for the sake of it, cool now? :P
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 05:27:31 PM
They scream for the sake of it, cool now? :P
I'm cooler than Santa Claus.
8)
That's such random statement that made me laugh.
if newt and hicks both live I think it would be a lot more interesting it was still a good movie regardless
Quote from: c0rps3f4ctory on Jun 26, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
if newt and hicks both live I think it would be a lot more interesting it was still a good movie regardless
Yep. We could see the prisoners molest Noot and comatose Hix.
Not necessarily.
There was another (and much better ) script if I'm not wrong, with a generally different plot, which was on a Monk Planet.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 06:18:19 PM
There was another (and much better ) script if I'm not wrong, with a generally different plot, which was on a Monk Planet.
But we're talking about putting Hix n Noot in the current setting.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jun 26, 2010, 06:18:19 PM
There was another (and much better ) script if I'm not wrong, with a generally different plot, which was on a Monk Planet.
I think Newt still died in that one. The earliest A3 scripts had her living with relatives, whilst Hicks took the lead role.
Quote from: maledoro on Jun 26, 2010, 06:19:59 PM
But we're talking about putting Hix n Noot in the current setting.
Let's introduce the Pedophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophobia) Plot Device then. ;) :)
Cameron's A3 opinion, just for reference
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi104.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm191%2FIzzys88%2FAliens%2Faliens2107.jpg&hash=d8d84008322141297603c58a18e9de545363b275)
Cameron intersected with Fincher? I think you can buy a cream for that :P
Im seriously going to use that word now. "Have you seen George?" " Yes I intersected with him 1.3 of your Earth minutes ago, human worm bag"
^ :D Fancy word, indeed.
Quote from: Frood on Jun 30, 2010, 09:27:34 PM
Cameron intersected with Fincher? I think you can buy a cream for that :P
Let the men do what they do in privacy, eh :P
Seems to ignore the fact that getting rid of Hix n Noot was actually Ward's idea.
Quote from: SM on Jul 01, 2010, 11:01:25 PM
Seems to ignore the fact that getting rid of Hix n Noot was actually Ward's idea.
Yeah, that's what I noticed. Fincher really had next to no control.
Don't know. He seemed to really embrace the idea of killing Hicks and Newt, but hard to tell whether he could've changed it if he wanted to.
Maybe one of the reasons they killed Newt off was because the actress had gotten too old and they didn't want to replace her with another actress that didn't really look like Newt from Aliens. The prisoners probably wouldn't have molested Newt successfully had she lived, Dillon came in to rescue Ripley, remember?
Quote from: predxeno on Jul 04, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
Maybe one of the reasons they killed Newt off was because the actress had gotten too old and they didn't want to replace her with another actress that didn't really look like Newt from Aliens. The prisoners probably wouldn't have molested Newt successfully had she lived, Dillon came in to rescue Ripley, remember?
I think her aging could have been explained easily. The story didn't have to pick up as soon as they wake up in the Sulaco. I don't think it's farfetched to say that people still age in cryosleep - albeit very,
very slowly. Ripley ain't the spring chicken in Aliens as she was in Alien. If Newt gained a year or two, fair enough. In the end, I reckon it all came down to Weaver not wanting an extended family (I think she says as much on the A3 documentary) and the writers agreeing.
Quote from: predxeno on Jul 04, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
Maybe one of the reasons they killed Newt off was because the actress had gotten too old and they didn't want to replace her with another actress that didn't really look like Newt from Aliens.
They could have used a stand-in for Henn, just like they did in the third film's autopsy.
Quote from: predxeno on Jul 04, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
The prisoners probably wouldn't have molested Newt successfully had she lived, Dillon came in to rescue Ripley, remember?
Dillon was in the right place at the right time. He might not be around when Newt is wandering.
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 04, 2010, 05:55:36 PM
I think her aging could have been explained easily.
Here's the hard part. Only about eleven days had passed from the time they left Acheron to the splashdown on Fiorina.
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 04, 2010, 06:28:46 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 04, 2010, 05:55:36 PM
I think her aging could have been explained easily.
Here's the hard part. Only about eleven days had passed from the time they left Acheron to the splashdown on Fiorina.
Since it's not explicitly stated in the movie, I think it could have been overcome. And the film didn't have to pick up right after the LV426-scapabes. But it did. And Newt died. So it's all moot, I guess.
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 04, 2010, 06:28:46 PMDillon was in the right place at the right time. He might not be around when Newt is wandering.
Ripley would probably not have let Newt out of her sight.
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 04, 2010, 06:39:04 PM
Since it's not explicitly stated in the movie, I think it could have been overcome.
But we already know or could figure it out.
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 04, 2010, 06:39:04 PM
And the film didn't have to pick up right after the LV426-scapabes. But it did. And Newt died. So it's all moot, I guess.
Yep.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv338%2Fmaledoro%2Ffwit%2F1251033d.gif&hash=b6339697b427b442f55b3aa51e224fc478a3bddb)
Ahahaha, that's why I love reading them posts of yours.
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 04, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 04, 2010, 06:39:04 PM
Since it's not explicitly stated in the movie, I think it could have been overcome.
But we already know or could figure it out.
Perhaps.
Quote
Yep.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/maledoro/fwit/1251033d.gif
:D
Oh right, it's been twenty years. I still quite haven't realised that living in the year 2010 in fact means it's ten years after the year 2000.
Better - yes. Necessary - no. I like newt a lot. She wouldn't really be in place in alien 3. She wouldn't be safe at all in that prison with dangerous prisoners. Dillon wouldn't have time to protect her like he did for ripley. It would have slowed the movie down even more. Alien 3 didn't need to be slowed down anymore. A lot of fans (im one of them) wanted to see newt in alien 3. Rather her role was long or short. Alien 3 story (more likely the plot) changed any possibility for newt.
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 12, 2010, 08:39:16 AM
Better - yes. Necessary - no. I like newt a lot. She wouldn't really be in place in alien 3. She wouldn't be safe at all in that prison with dangerous prisoners. Dillon wouldn't have time to protect her like he did for ripley. It would have slowed the movie down even more. Alien 3 didn't need to be slowed down anymore. A lot of fans (im one of them) wanted to see newt in alien 3. Rather her role was long or short. Alien 3 story (more likely the plot) changed any possibility for newt.
So, you're saying that
Alien 3 would be better if Newt was in it so that she would be in peril by the prisoners and alien? I like you already!
;D
Had already seen Newt in peril throughout most of Aliens, it was either include her, kill her, or remove her (which I would've preferred, meaning no Ripley either - new characters!)
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 12, 2010, 12:12:56 PM
Had already seen Newt in peril throughout most of Aliens, it was either include her, kill her, or remove her (which I would've preferred, meaning no Ripley either - new characters!)
She was included (autopsy scene), she was killed (too much to drink while sleeping), she was removed (see last), and there were new characters. You got 80% of your wish!
:D
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 12, 2010, 04:36:23 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 12, 2010, 12:12:56 PM
Had already seen Newt in peril throughout most of Aliens, it was either include her, kill her, or remove her (which I would've preferred, meaning no Ripley either - new characters!)
She was included (autopsy scene), she was killed (too much to drink while sleeping), she was removed (see last), and there were new characters. You got 80% of your wish!
:D
80% is fine. Too bad about Ripley being there :P
Yes it would
Quote from: x2SMONEY on Jul 12, 2010, 11:57:22 PM
Yes it would
Would it be for one of the reasons already shot down, or for another reason?
IF she had survived the EEV I don't think she would have survived the prisoners or the Alien.
Dieing in her sleep was most likely they nicest way out for her in Alien 3.
Well Cameron was very angry (in Aliens james cameron's comments) when he realised all his character Newt , an the last soldier (sorry i don't remeber his name) where killed
Quote from: FUZION PREDATOR on Jul 13, 2010, 03:58:37 PM
Well Cameron was very angry (in Aliens james cameron's comments) when he realised all his character Newt , an the last soldier (sorry i don't remeber his name) where killed
Cameron's been known to get overly emotional.
As a writer myself, I can understand. He worked very hard on fleshing out his characters and when you lose control of the fates of your own creations, it does sting quite a bit.
That being said, as sad as it makes me, Hicks and Newt dying worked for the series.
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 13, 2010, 06:41:49 PM
Quote from: FUZION PREDATOR on Jul 13, 2010, 03:58:37 PM
Well Cameron was very angry (in Aliens james cameron's comments) when he realised all his character Newt , an the last soldier (sorry i don't remeber his name) where killed
Cameron's been known to get overly emotional.
Really?
Quote from: TheMonolith on Jul 13, 2010, 06:45:37 PM
As a writer myself, I can understand. He worked very hard on fleshing out his characters and when you lose control of the fates of your own creations, it does sting quite a bit.
Which is different than getting angry.
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 13, 2010, 06:41:49 PM
Quote from: FUZION PREDATOR on Jul 13, 2010, 03:58:37 PM
Well Cameron was very angry (in Aliens james cameron's comments) when he realised all his character Newt , an the last soldier (sorry i don't remeber his name) where killed
Cameron's been known to get overly emotional.
Doesn't mean he is not right in what is saying.
Either way it wasn't his movie. Alien3 was a David Fincher film; not a James Cameron film.
Just as the AvP movies didn't belong to Scott, Cameron, Fincher, Jeunet, Mctiernan or Hopkins...
still there was something wrong about AvP, as it screwed up the continuity for the alien franchise (Xenos on the northpole, Xenos in a town in colorado...)
South Pole (well the general vicinity)
AvP almost got away with avoiding continuity problems by making the story so isolated. AvP:Poo didn't even try.
Quote from: SM on Jul 14, 2010, 12:33:11 AM
AvP almost got away with avoiding continuity problems by making the story so isolated. AvP:Poo didn't even try.
I dunno. Some of those people in Colorado are pretty "isolated".
;D
For which we are eternally grateful.
We both know what you are...
Someone who likes his tea in a funky looking glass.
I have a couple of those funky-looking glasses. For display purposes only.
I never liked the setting of alien 3, which in turn gave us bald, mostly indistinguishable religious nutjobs who were also murderers, rapists, child molesters.etc., making it hard to give a shit if the alien killed them or not.
I would have loved to see the alien stoways(facehuggers) make it to gateway station via the sulaco and wreak havoc there. Presumably it would be bigger than either the nostromo or sulaco and have plenty of decks and places for an alien to hide in.
Quote from: Ballzanya on Jul 16, 2010, 02:21:30 AM
I never liked the setting of alien 3, which in turn gave us bald, mostly indistinguishable religious nutjobs who were also murderers, rapists, child molesters.etc., making it hard to give a shit if the alien killed them or not.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv338%2Fmaledoro%2Fpwed%2Ff17859d8.jpg&hash=28062a4359ef3155ccf4c888964bf9e7e0e279ca)
Quote from: Ballzanya on Jul 16, 2010, 02:21:30 AM
I would have loved to see the alien stoways(facehuggers) make it to gateway station via the sulaco and wreak havoc there. Presumably it would be bigger than either the nostromo or sulaco and have plenty of decks and places for an alien to hide in.
Ah, the
Alien III: Die Hard in Space script again...
Quote from: maledoro on Jul 12, 2010, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 12, 2010, 08:39:16 AM
Better - yes. Necessary - no. I like newt a lot. She wouldn't really be in place in alien 3. She wouldn't be safe at all in that prison with dangerous prisoners. Dillon wouldn't have time to protect her like he did for ripley. It would have slowed the movie down even more. Alien 3 didn't need to be slowed down anymore. A lot of fans (im one of them) wanted to see newt in alien 3. Rather her role was long or short. Alien 3 story (more likely the plot) changed any possibility for newt.
So, you're saying that Alien 3 would be better if Newt was in it so that she would be in peril by the prisoners and alien? I like you already!
;D
Yes. It would make the movie better, only to see newt. It would not make the story any better. It would have worked out great if the story was different. Where would newt be in a prison. Who would protect her (or want to protect her) from the inmates, besides ripley. Bishop was terminated (having only half a body from the torso up. he would not be any help) and hicks was dead. The prison guards had too much work to do with the inmates. If the story didn't take place in a prison, it could have made the movie better. Since the plot took place in prison, then no, newt would not need to be in the movie. Thank you for liking me.
I just wish Hicks would have lived. It was a cheap way to kill both Newt and Hicks and its one of the main reasons I wasnt a big fan of Alien 3.
Quote from: Ballzanya on Jul 16, 2010, 02:21:30 AM
I never liked the setting of alien 3, which in turn gave us bald, mostly indistinguishable religious nutjobs who were also murderers, rapists, child molesters.etc., making it hard to give a shit if the alien killed them or not.
This^
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 17, 2010, 11:14:24 PM
Yes. It would make the movie better, only to see newt. It would not make the story any better.
That sounds pretty creepy...
:o
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 17, 2010, 11:14:24 PM
It would have worked out great if the story was different. Where would newt be in a prison. Who would protect her (or want to protect her) from the inmates, besides ripley.
We already covered this.
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 17, 2010, 11:14:24 PM
If the story didn't take place in a prison, it could have made the movie better. Since the plot took place in prison, then no, newt would not need to be in the movie.
What would be your alternative? (Please look through this thread (and others on this forum just like it) to make sure it hasn't been posted (and answered).)
Quote from: Jody=Geek on Jul 17, 2010, 11:14:24 PM
Thank you for liking me.
Well, I
did, until you said you didn't want her in prison.
Quote from: JediMasterGabe on Jul 19, 2010, 06:09:08 PM
I just wish Hicks would have lived.
He did! (Through some of the opening credits...)
Quote from: JediMasterGabe on Jul 19, 2010, 06:09:08 PM
It was a cheap way to kill both Newt and Hicks and its one of the main reasons I wasnt a big fan of Alien 3.
How would
you have killed them in the opening sequence in a way that wasn't cheap? CG effects? Dress them in designer underwear?
^ :D :D at the last comment by Mal.
Ripley was confused because even though Hicks said his first name was Dwayne, he had 'Calvin' on his shorts.
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2010, 04:35:01 AM
Ripley was confused because even though Hicks said his first name was Dwayne, he had 'Calvin' on his shorts.
"Corporal Klein"?
Hmmmm...:-\
Alien 3 was great. Hicks and Newt would've just ruined it. I mean , I wish Hicks had gotten a bit more screentime , but I would've liked him to die soon after.
Of course it would've been better. Of course. I'm surprised this is even a question.
They could've come up with some other way to write her out if they needed to.
QuoteI'm surprised this is even a question.
Not sure why you'd be surprised considering so many disagree.
I already explained my stance on this on the first page, but I see no one mentioned Alan Dean Foster's alternative way of keeping Newt alive yet absent
My thought in re the killing of Newt in Alien 3 was to explain that her capsule was damaged and that she would therefore have to remain in deep sleep until it could be repaired. That way, she remains alive but inactive for the duration of the story, Ripley's motivation to fight to remain alive in order to sustain her is maintained, and Newt's status being iffy (she can live or die at any time) adds another element of suspense to the film. And of course, having Newt as an older person with a unique insight into the aliens would have opened up some wonderful spin-off possibilities. But Walter Hill essentially killed off everything I tried to add to the story. (Source (http://www.jamescamerononline.com/AlanDeanFosterQA.htm))
And was right to do so. You can't adapt a film and make such a major change. Ends up being a different story.
Quote from: SM on Jul 23, 2010, 12:52:59 AM
And was right to do so. You can't adapt a film and make such a major change. Ends up being a different story.
I agree, but Im curious about what others think about this version being in the actual movie
In a word. No.
I never much liked Newt. For me all she did was make me like Ripley more. As a character I really had no feelings for Newt, where she lived or died I cared not.
Hudson, now that was a man who deserved to survive. It should have been him walking out the door at the end of Alien 3. Someone should photoshop Bill Paxton's face over Morse's face. ;D
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jul 23, 2010, 01:45:01 AM
Hudson, now that was a man who deserved to survive. It should have been him walking out the door at the end of Alien 3. Someone should photoshop Bill Paxton's face over Morse's face. ;D
Funny you say that, I always felt that Morse is Alien 3's version of Hudson
Quote from: Ballzanya on Jul 16, 2010, 02:21:30 AM
I never liked the setting of alien 3, which in turn gave us bald, mostly indistinguishable religious nutjobs who were also murderers, rapists, child molesters.etc., making it hard to give a shit if the alien killed them or not.
I would have loved to see the alien stoways(facehuggers) make it to gateway station via the sulaco and wreak havoc there. Presumably it would be bigger than either the nostromo or sulaco and have plenty of decks and places for an alien to hide in.
It was also very hard to tell the prisoners apart except for a small few.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jul 23, 2010, 01:45:01 AM
In a word. No.
I never much liked Newt. For me all she did was make me like Ripley more. As a character I really had no feelings for Newt, where she lived or died I cared not.
Hudson, now that was a man who deserved to survive. It should have been him walking out the door at the end of Alien 3. Someone should photoshop Bill Paxton's face over Morse's face. ;D
Hudson was a likable character that had to die to get emotions from the audience. It also happened in Predator 2 for the same reason I'm guessing.
As for Alan Dean Foster's idea of keeping Newt alive; I would have loved it. It sounds exciting and great and should have been in the movie. If it had, then maybe Alien 4 wouldn't have turned out the way it did. Even if it wasn't in the movie I still would have liked to have read about it in the novel. I like to think of these kind of things as possible witness accounts. One witness says Newt died and was autopsied before being cremated while another account says that she's still alive.
No because I love Alien 3 how it is, despite its flaws, and Newt wouldnt have worked in that film at all. Neither would Hicks for that matter. The whole point was that she was a woman in an all male prison and she was alone so to speak. Having Hicks or Newt or both along for the ride and it wouldn't have been the same film. And if im honest, Newt annoys the tits of me, especially that insanely high pitched scream.
Quote from: Keg on Aug 06, 2010, 06:59:10 PM
No because I love Alien 3 how it is, despite its flaws, and Newt wouldnt have worked in that film at all. Neither would Hicks for that matter. The whole point was that she was a woman in an all male prison and she was alone to speak. Having Hicks or Newt or both along for the ride and it would have been a very different film.
^ These are my exact sentiments on the issue
Yes, it would have been loads better. Not that I recognize any film past Aliens as canon, personally.
And why would that be?
Because the premise of Alien^3 doesn't make any sense in the first place, what with the egg being onboard. Alien^3 is a good movie, but it's not a good Alien movie, and I'm content with calling it a bad dream Ripley had. The story ended with Aliens, we had our closure.
However, the last sequel is the one that doesn't make any money. So here we are.
Except Alien 3 had to happen to close Ripleys' story...then Resurrection comes along and ruins all the good Alien 3 did. But it was necessary. Sure, the egg being on board may not make total sense, but its there and its up to the fans to fill in the blanks with why and how it's there.
Why is it not a good Alien movie? If any movie in the series is worthy of criticism it's Resurrection, not Alien 3.
Because it introduced the one factor that has plagued the Alien franchise ever since: studio meddling. Alien was a fairly under-the-radar project in the wake of Star Wars, so Fox didn't give it much trouble. Aliens was directed by Jim Cameron, a man who's made a legendary career out of flipping studios the bird and doing his projects exactly the way he intends. When it got to Alien^3 the executive vultures descended and tore the thing to pieces. Just ask David Fincher.
It's not up to fans to make sense of the egg: it was shoehorned in in the hope that the audience wouldn't think about it. That's sloppy storytelling to the core, and I don't blame any of the filmmakers active on that project, but I sure as hell blame the studio slugs who pushed the film to that point.
Again, it's a good film but not a good Alien film as far as I'm concerned. It annihilates the narrative power of the third act of Aliens, and that alone makes it next to impossible for me to accept. I would have much rather they went in the direction of William Gibson's script--maybe not shot-for-shot, but I would have taken a East vs West sci-fi starring Michael Biehn any day, as dated as that concept might be.
I had absolutely no problem with it killing Hicks and Newt (even after the third act in Aliens)...for several reasons, which vary from me not really liking the characters all that much to the symbolism it had with the mercilessness of the alien creature itself.
And that's where we differ, see, I've always been a big fan of Hicks and Newt, especially in the context of the family dynamic they formed with Ripley. So while you may think killing them was the right direction to take the series, I'll respectfully disagree and go back to sobbing into the Nightmare Asylum comics.
As for the Alien's mercilessness, you don't think that quality was supported enough by the first two films? I thought the egg stuff was more to do with the dastardly, moustache-twirling ability of the Alien Queen to teleport eggs into nooks and crannies of rooms she was nowhere near. Allegedly. I mean, there's mercilessness and then there's dues ex machina.
It just makes more sense as a nightmare to me. Not to you, that's cool. There's something for everyone in this series.
I did enjoy bald Ripley, I'll give you that.
QuoteAs for the Alien's mercilessness, you don't think that quality was supported enough by the first two films? I thought the egg stuff was more to do with the dastardly, moustache-twirling ability of the Alien Queen to teleport eggs into nooks and crannies of rooms she was nowhere near. Allegedly. I mean, there's mercilessness and then there's dues ex machina.
I was in no way referencing the eggs when i mentioned mercilessness. I was referencing the uncaring nature of the alien, and no matter how much you've gained and how much love you have, it still has the ability to take that from you (and it does). The first Alien had it, and
Aliens...well,
Aliens made the once near invincible creature vincible. I love the movie, don't get me wrong, but that was one thing that it did that many fans (including myself) took somewhat of an issue with.
And if you want to get into mistakes,
Aliens had a lot of them as well. Like when Spunkmeyer and Ferro were taking off with the dropship to pick up the marines back at the reactor: how was there one random alien conveniently placed in the dropship? How and why did it travel that far away from its hive, when its hive was under attack? But whatever, I could nitpick all day.
Also, you're forgetting that somehow the queen managed to get the egg to stick to a wall (if the extended edition is anything to go by). :D
QuoteIt just makes more sense as a nightmare to me. Not to you, that's cool. There's something for everyone in this series.
Except usually with nightmares you don't actually die when your nightmare-self dies.
I don't know, I always thought the dropship crash was mostly plausible, and justified because it's such a great scene. The problem with Alien^3 is that the entire plot hinges on something that's completely impossible even within the confines of the storytelling. Plus sticking to the wall!
QuoteExcept usually with nightmares you don't actually die when your nightmare-self dies.
Exactly, so Ripley woke up, had a warm glass of milk, slept for two more hours and then got her flight officer license back in the morning. And all was well. : P
QuoteThe problem with Alien^3 is that the entire plot hinges on something that's completely impossible even within the confines of the storytelling. Plus sticking to the wall!
How possible is it really that a 10 year old girl managed to survive for days on her own against an entire hive of aliens?
Quote
Exactly, so Ripley woke up, had a warm glass of milk, slept for two more hours and then got her flight officer license back in the morning. And all was well. : P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_aCVBFlkE
There have been more incredible survival stories, I think. If you're going to go that way you might as well start asking how they have gravity on their spaceships. At least they explained and gave the ridiculousness of Newt's achievement some credit in Aliens. The egg in Alien^3 is never going to make sense to me.
But hey, doesn't matter. Everyone interprets these movies in their own way, that's what makes them fun.
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Aug 06, 2010, 08:41:08 PM
There have been more incredible survival stories, I think. If you're going to go that way you might as well start asking how they have gravity on their spaceships. At least they explained and gave the ridiculousness of Newt's achievement some credit in Aliens. The egg in Alien^3 is never going to make sense to me.
But hey, doesn't matter. Everyone interprets these movies in their own way, that's what makes them fun.
I guess thats what it boils down to...although, the egg scene in Alien 3 was pretty ridiculous. Not so much the 2 facehuggers thing: there have been just as weird environmental adaptations commited on earth in as much time. But how she even got the egg inside the Sulaco...the only thing I can think of is that it may be inside the drop ship, the egg opened, the facehuggers come out and look for humans and...the rest is history. The sticking to the wall...maybe she used some Resin?
I never saw it sticking to a wall as an issue. Maybe if we actually knew something about the eggs that contradicts it, but... we don't. Could be anything.
But it should have been the filmmakers asking these questions. We do it because we're fans, but it really shouldn't be up to the audience to justify the Alien Queen tiptoing across the ship to lay an egg on the roof of the cryobay before tiptoing back to fight Ripley. That whole concept is an insult to the viewer's intelligence, and it's why I can't see Alien^3 as anything but a what-if scenario.
I want to like Alien^3, it has a lot of really brilliant moments, especially what they did with the Fox theme. But it has too many gaping flaws for me to really accept it. It's a divisive film, it's interesting. But as far as I'm concerned, Newt and Hicks made it home.
I was always under the impression that the egg mustve been laid on the dropship while the queen was hiding and then afterwards the facehugger emerged and at some point it got into the cryochamber where the survivors were. The egg being stuck to a wall makes sense with this because she was underneath the dropship and so she would have had to attach it to the hull of the dropship so it didnt fall anywhere. judging by the stuff that makes up their hives and cocoons their victims id sya she had no problem in sticking the egg to the underside of the dropship.
QuoteWe do it because we're fans, but it really shouldn't be up to the audience to justify the Alien Queen tiptoing across the ship to lay an egg on the roof of the cryobay before tiptoing back to fight Ripley.
There is no indication that the egg is in the cryobay...it could just as easily be in or on the outside of the dropship, and the facehugger sought out the cryobay...
But it's not. I'm looking at the shot in the movie right now, and the egg is *clearly* not on the hull of the dropship, nor any part of the hangar. I wish I had pictures for you, but from what you can see in that pan it's a lot further into the Sulaco than the Queen ever reached. It looks just like the cryobay to me, could be wrong.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 06, 2010, 08:18:12 PM
Aliens made the once near invincible creature vincible.
How so? Its a common misconception that people have. People tend to think that 1? Ash knows absolutely everything about the creature even tho he studied the facehugger and not the creature for few hours 2? That Ash said that the alien is indestructible instead of being a perfect organism. When Ash talks about Alien being perfect, he is clearly referring to and talking about his adaptive abilities and being a perfect weapon that doesnt have any pitty or remorse. Its not talking about the creature being somewhat indestructible or invincible, and the movie clearly shows it isnt. It can get hurt, it reacts to changes in temperatures (screeches when Ripley gases it) and a small spear hurts it so bad that its entire chest sprays acid all over the place (which doesnt melt anything btw)
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So I really dont get that "Aliens made aliens weaker" bull.
QuoteAnd if you want to get into mistakes, Aliens had a lot of them as well. Like when Spunkmeyer and Ferro were taking off with the dropship to pick up the marines back at the reactor: how was there one random alien conveniently placed in the dropship? How and why did it travel that far away from its hive, when its hive was under attack?
That has been explained by Cameron. In Aliens the aliens are probably the most intelligent ones. They knew that the dropship carries more weapons and would take the marines away from them so they had to get rid of it. Plenty of time passed since the attack on the hive and the dropship incident and aliens do tend to wander alone all the time too (The one that got Burke for example, or the one that got Newt). Its never been said that theyre always in a group
QuoteHow possible is it really that a 10 year old girl managed to survive for days on her own against an entire hive of aliens?
The entire colony was enormous in size, with multiple large complexes connected together. And as seen in the movie, aliens retreated to the hive deserting the entire place. New played with other kids hiding in the vents before the colony became infested and she was the best in fitting in tight spots. That's why she got called Newt. That's how she survived the initial attack by going into small places no one else could fit and then when the alien warriors deserted the place and retreated into the hive under the heat exchanger, she moved around through the vent tunnels. By that point the place was relatively safe since aliens lied dormant in their hives. And like someone said, there are far more complicated and amazing child survival stories
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Aug 06, 2010, 10:39:28 PM
But its not. I'm looking at the shot in the movie right now, and the egg is *clearly* not on the hull of the dropship, nor any part of the hangar. I wish I had pictures for you, but from what you can see in that pan it's a lot further into the Sulaco than the Queen ever reached. It looks just like the cryobay to me, could be wrong.
Looks more like the mess hall to me
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 06, 2010, 10:42:16 PM
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Aug 06, 2010, 10:39:28 PM
But its not. I'm looking at the shot in the movie right now, and the egg is *clearly* not on the hull of the dropship, nor any part of the hangar. I wish I had pictures for you, but from what you can see in that pan it's a lot further into the Sulaco than the Queen ever reached. It looks just like the cryobay to me, could be wrong.
Looks more like the mess hall to me
That's the other place I was thinking, although it's more likely they just filmed a pickup in the cryobay set, I doubt the movie crew rebuilt much else. Still, the mess hall is just as valid from what we've seen, and an equally ludicrous location for an egg.
QuoteHow so? Its a common misconception that people have. People tend to think that 1? Ash knows absolutely everything about the creature even tho he studied the facehugger and not the creature for few hours 2? That Ash said that the alien is indestructible instead of being a perfect organism. When Ash talks about Alien being perfect, he is clearly referring to and talking about his adaptive abilities and being a perfect weapon that doesnt have any pitty or remorse. Its not talking about the creature being somewhat indestructible or invincible, and the movie clearly shows it isnt. It can get hurt, it reacts to changes in temperatures (screeches when Ripley gases it) and a small spear hurts it so bad that its entire chest sprays acid all over the place (which doesnt melt anything btw)
I didn't even care what Ash said. I meant in the fact that in
Alien, the xenomorph was this creature that had the potential to be lurking in any shadow, any crevice, anywhere you couldn't see that if you made one false move would get you. The crew couldn't see it, couldn't find it, couldn't kill it. That's why its invincible. In
Aliens, the exact opposite happens: they can see the aliens plain as day, they don't have that same fear of something lurking just around the corner, and the aliens are killed en masse. Sort of ruins the invincible mystique brought about by the first movie.
However, you seem to think that I actually meant the creature was invincible. In no way did I mean that: it got killed in the end for crying out loud. I can see where you got that, though: my wording was up for interpretation. However, allow me to set it straight: I did not mean that
Alien made the xenomorph invincible, rather that it created a mystique around the creature that made it
seem invincible.
QuoteThe entire colony was enormous in size, with multiple large complexes connected together. And as seen in the movie, aliens retreated to the hive deserting the entire place. New played with other kids hiding in the vents before the colony became infested and she was the best in fitting in tight spots. That's why she got called Newt. That's how she survived the initial attack by going into small places no one else could fit and then when the alien warriors deserted the place and retreated into the hive under the heat exchanger, she moved around through the vent tunnels. By that point the place was relatively safe since aliens lied dormant in their hives. And like someone said, there are far more complicated and amazing child survival stories
Cameron also said that no ventilation shaft in real life is as big as the ones in his movie...which makes what Newt did all the more implausible. However, I see where you are coming from. Fair enough.
QuoteBut its not. I'm looking at the shot in the movie right now, and the egg is *clearly* not on the hull of the dropship, nor any part of the hangar. I wish I had pictures for you, but from what you can see in that pan it's a lot further into the Sulaco than the Queen ever reached. It looks just like the cryobay to me, could be wrong.
Just watched the movie again...I must admit, it looks like it's more inside the Sulaco than in the dropship...maybe it's somewhere in the hangar? I don't know.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 06, 2010, 10:50:29 PM
the xenomorph was this creature that had the potential to be lurking in any shadow, any crevice, anywhere you couldn't see that if you made one false move would get you. The crew couldn't see it, couldn't find it, couldn't kill it.
I dont know, I think Aliens and Alien 3 (but Aliens more so) did a good job in keeping the creature in the shadow and being an inevitable doom thats "somewhere out there", considering that Aliens is the movie in which see the least of the alien. When something pops out you dont really know if you get scared or startled. Many people cite the duct scene from Alien as the most terrifying one, and thats the one that used the motion tracker, the idea which was a prominent one in Aliens. Once you know its out there and its closing in but youre in the dark and you dont know which direction its coming from, I think thats the most tense as you can get
QuoteCameron also said that no ventilation shaft in real life is as big as the ones in his movie
Sure, but he also stated its simply a consistency with the first movie which also had air shafts in which people could walk
QuoteJust watched the movie again...I must admit, it looks like it's more inside the Sulaco than in the dropship...maybe it's somewhere in the hangar? I don't know.
Definitely not the bay either. We know that set and it didnt have anything like that there. Again, I always assumed its stuck under the table in the mess hall
Yeah, I just checked, we never see the same ceiling in Aliens that we do in Alien^3. So it's somewhere we haven't been shown, maybe a corridor, more likely the cryobay set rebuilt inaccurately by the crew of Alien^3. The problem remains: the Queen was in the hangar the whole time she was on the Sulaco, and then she was biting vacuum. There is no way she could have left that egg on the ship. No way.
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Aug 06, 2010, 11:17:37 PM
Yeah, I just checked, we never see the same ceiling in Aliens that we do in Alien^3. So it's somewhere we haven't been shown, maybe a corridor, more likely the cryobay set rebuilt inaccurately by the crew of Alien^3. The problem remains: the Queen was in the hangar the whole time she was on the Sulaco, and then she was biting vacuum. There is no way she could have left that egg on the ship. No way.
Not to mention Bishop was watching her the entire time she was there. Plus, they had to go back to the dropship to get Hicks anyway, they wouldve notice something or at least check the dropship if theres any more aliens there. Oh well, its simply one of those "dont ask" problems
QuoteI dont know, I think Aliens and Alien 3 (but Aliens more so) did a good job in keeping the creature in the shadow and being an inevitable doom thats "somewhere out there", considering that Aliens is the movie in which see the least of the alien. When something pops out you dont really know if you get scared or startled. Many people cite the duct scene from Alien as the most terrifying one, and thats the one that used the motion tracker, the idea which was a prominent one in Aliens. Once you know its out there and its closing in but youre in the dark and you dont know which direction its coming from, I think thats the most tense as you can get
Except Alien did it more and better.
Quote
Sure, but he also stated its simply a consistency with the first movie which also had air shafts in which people could walk
Did he? I never heard that...
QuoteDefinitely not the bay either. We know that set and it didnt have anything like that there. Again, I always assumed its stuck under the table in the mess hall
Kind of looks like a change room.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 06, 2010, 11:21:07 PM
Except Alien did it more and better.
Well it didnt have more more because it used the motion tracker panic only once. Better? Thats everyone's opinion of course, I personally see no distinction between the two. Both use the same method to gain rapidly fast growin tension. I always say that Alien is a master of suspense while Aliens is a master of tension
QuoteQuote
Sure, but he also stated its simply a consistency with the first movie which also had air shafts in which people could walk
Did he? I never heard that...
He says so right after he laughs that air ducts arent big enough for people to walk in Quadrilogy commentary
QuoteQuoteDefinitely not the bay either. We know that set and it didnt have anything like that there. Again, I always assumed its stuck under the table in the mess hall
Kind of looks like a change room.
Weve seen most of Sulaco anyway. maybe not showers. We know the Bay very well and we know that the cryo room, lockers, the armory and the mess hall are pretty much connected. Again, my bet is that its a table in the mess hall
Quote
Well it didnt have more more because it used the motion tracker panic only once. Better? Thats everyone's opinion of course, I personally see no distinction between the two. Both use the same method to gain rapidly fast growin tension. I always say that Alien is a master of suspense while Aliens is a master of tension
The motion tracker isn't the only way to mount tension. I think the most tense and frightening scene in the entire alien franchise is when Ripley is going from trying to deactivate the self destruct back to the escape pod. I was nearly shitting myself the whole time, crunched up in the fetal position to try and alleviate the tension. No other film has come close to that. Period.
QuoteHe says so right after he laughs that air ducts arent big enough for people to walk in Quadrilogy commentary
Ah. Maybe I need to watch that again. :D Thanks.
QuoteWeve seen most of Sulaco anyway. maybe not showers. We know the Bay very well and we know that the cryo room, lockers, the armory and the mess hall are pretty much connected. Again, my bet is that its a table in the mess hall
I need to get a picture of that...I guarantee you it was not a table in the mess hall, though.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 06, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Quote
Well it didnt have more more because it used the motion tracker panic only once. Better? Thats everyone's opinion of course, I personally see no distinction between the two. Both use the same method to gain rapidly fast growin tension. I always say that Alien is a master of suspense while Aliens is a master of tension
The motion tracker isn't the only way to mount tension. I think the most tense and frightening scene in the entire alien franchise is when Ripley is going from trying to deactivate the self destruct back to the escape pod. I was nearly shitting myself the whole time, crunched up in the fetal position to try and alleviate the tension. No other film has come close to that. Period.
Well you know, thats how you feel it then youre entitled to it. I agree its great, but again, for me when something jumps out unnanounced its more startling than scary. I like it too, but the idea that its closing in on you in the dark and youre trying to run and you dont know where it is yet its still getting closer and closer is the most terrifying
QuoteI need to get a picture of that...I guarantee you it was not a table in the mess hall, though.
I still think it is. Either way, its somewhere low. Its sure isnt a ceiling or a wall
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Looks higher than a table, but you're right, it is under something...
Still dont have it, but doesnt the novelization say where it is?
Just made the picture bigger...again, doesn't look like a table...
Its either armory or the mess hall
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Whatever it is its obviously NOT the bay or the dropship
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 07, 2010, 08:21:22 AM
Whatever it is its obviously NOT the bay or the dropship
Precisely. And there's the issue, what that shot proves is that the egg was left in a part of the ship the Queen could never have reached during her brief, unhappy time onboard Sulaco. Take it any way you like it. I choose not to take it at all.
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Aug 07, 2010, 04:04:11 PM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 07, 2010, 08:21:22 AM
Whatever it is its obviously NOT the bay or the dropship
Precisely. And there's the issue, what that shot proves is that the egg was left in a part of the ship the Queen could never have reached during her brief, unhappy time onboard Sulaco. Take it any way you like it. I choose not to take it at all.
I must admit, I am starting to agree with you on this. Ah well.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 07, 2010, 08:21:22 AM
Its either armory or the mess hall
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Whatever it is its obviously NOT the bay or the dropship
Or it may be parts of the bay or dropship we hadn't seen.
Really, they just made up an area and threw the egg there. Not like they were consistent with the look of the cryotubes either.
In an effort to get this thread back on topic, I'll say that it doesn't matter where the egg was; Newt is still dead, and it wouldn't be better if she had lived through and/or beyond this film.
Unless something worse than drowning happens to her.
Well, Im still insisting its in the mess hall but like maledoro said its a different discussion.
And to help go back to the topic at hand: Im wondering if its really about Newt and Hicks' presence being valuable to the quality of Alien 3 or is it really simply about them being killed off? The question for those who answered Yes to the thread title: if Newt and Hicks stayed in the cryotubes alive in Sulaco and Ripley was somehow ejected alone to Fury, would that be better for you?
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 08, 2010, 06:55:53 AM
And to help go back to the topic at hand: Im wondering if its really about Newt and Hicks' presence being valuable to the quality of Alien 3 or is it really simply about them being killed off? The question for those who answered Yes to the thread title: if Newt and Hicks stayed in the cryotubes alive in Sulaco and Ripley was somehow ejected alone to Fury, would that be better for you?
Yes. WY could have intercepted them and they could have returned at the end, with Bishop II telling Ripley that she has a family, etc. It would have made Ripley's jump harder, and more of a sacrifice (she had f**k all reason to live by the end anyway). She'd have to outright tell her surrogate family that she wouldn't be going home with them.
Thing is Hicks would probably want Ripley to kill herself. He's seen what the aliens can do and hes witnessed first hand how callous the company can be. I couldnt see him agreeing to it.
Quote from: Keg on Aug 08, 2010, 12:42:39 PM
Thing is Hicks would probably want Ripley to kill herself. He's seen what the aliens can do and hes witnessed first hand how callous the company can be. I couldnt see him agreeing to it.
In his condition, he probably wouln't have much choice. Regardless, the oppurtunity to reunite with them would be very tempting indeed.
There are other ways to include him in an ending like you described though. heres one for you. See if you like this. Hicks arrives with Bishop II believing they are there to help Ripley. He tells her Newt is safe and is waiting for her. Ripley then looks Hicks in the eyes and tells him it's the only way. The film plays out pretty similar, and when Aaron is shot down the gunner turns his attention back to Morse (who hes already shot). Hicks looks at Ripley one last time and she awknowledges him before he hurls himself at the gunner to give Morse and Ripley time to do what must be done. Hicks see's Ripley fall off the ledge and is then shot dead. Hicks then dies a hero giving Ripley the time she needed and its a much more heart wrenching ending with Hicks dying and realising Ripley has to give up Newt.
I dont think it would be necessary to actually have Newt there though, just through Hicks mentioning her.
I would have liked to see him play some sort of role at the end, in either way, just as we got Bishop II as a 'friendly face' to try and convince Ripley to step over to WY.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 07, 2010, 12:25:50 AM
Still dont have it, but doesnt the novelization say where it is?
The novelization makes no mention; it just starts with the facehugger scuttling aboard the Sulacco to the cryochambers. Try the comic adaptation by Dark Horse Comics, I haven't read it yet, though. According to the latest pic, I definitely think it's near the ceiling. Though, I know that it doesn't seem likely that the queen reached that far, I know there have been rumors that someone else like Burke or Bishop put it there. Back to the original topic:
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 08, 2010, 06:55:53 AM
Well, Im still insisting its in the mess hall but like maledoro said its a different discussion.
And to help go back to the topic at hand: Im wondering if its really about Newt and Hicks' presence being valuable to the quality of Alien 3 or is it really simply about them being killed off? The question for those who answered Yes to the thread title: if Newt and Hicks stayed in the cryotubes alive in Sulaco and Ripley was somehow ejected alone to Fury, would that be better for you?
For me; yup.
Quote from: Keg on Aug 08, 2010, 12:42:39 PM
Thing is Hicks would probably want Ripley to kill herself. He's seen what the aliens can do and hes witnessed first hand how callous the company can be. I couldnt see him agreeing to it.
This ties in with how Hicks said that he would do both Ripley and himself in (i.e kill them) if the aliens were going to take them away in
Aliens
Quote from: Keg on Aug 08, 2010, 01:31:36 PM
There are other ways to include him in an ending like you described though. heres one for you. See if you like this. Hicks arrives with Bishop II believing they are there to help Ripley. He tells her Newt is safe and is waiting for her. Ripley then looks Hicks in the eyes and tells him it's the only way. The film plays out pretty similar, and when Aaron is shot down the gunner turns his attention back to Morse (who hes already shot). Hicks looks at Ripley one last time and she awknowledges him before he hurls himself at the gunner to give Morse and Ripley time to do what must be done. Hicks see's Ripley fall off the ledge and is then shot dead. Hicks then dies a hero giving Ripley the time she needed and its a much more heart wrenching ending with Hicks dying and realising Ripley has to give up Newt.
So, Hicks dies at the
end of the film instead of the beginning? Got it.
Quote from: Keg on Aug 08, 2010, 01:31:36 PM
I dont think it would be necessary to actually have Newt there though, just through Hicks mentioning her.
Her scream would shatter everything once she sees Ripley dive into the furnace. But, on the bright side, maybe she'll lose control and chase after her?
;)
QuoteWell, Im still insisting its in the mess hall
Compare it to pics of the mess hall.
QuotePrecisely. And there's the issue, what that shot proves is that the egg was left in a part of the ship the Queen could never have reached during her brief, unhappy time onboard Sulaco. Take it any way you like it. I choose not to take it at all.
Always makes me giggle that it's (still) fashionable to praise Alien3 and shitcan Resurrection, and yet people get shocked when someone comes in and dismisses Alien3, which is just as flawed.
I don't agree with the stance, but bravo I say to you sir! ;D
Quote from: SM on Aug 08, 2010, 11:23:21 PM
Always makes me giggle that it's (still) fashionable to praise Alien3 and shitcan Resurrection, and yet people get shocked when someone comes in and dismisses Alien3, which is just as flawed.
It has nothing to do with being fashionable. It has a great deal to do with
which flaws are appealing. The two films are like mashed potatoes: some people like lumps, some people like too much garlic. (Come to think of it,
Alien³ is kinda lumpy and there is way too much garlic in
A:R.)
Quote from: maledoro on Aug 09, 2010, 01:23:12 AM
Quote from: SM on Aug 08, 2010, 11:23:21 PM
Always makes me giggle that it's (still) fashionable to praise Alien3 and shitcan Resurrection, and yet people get shocked when someone comes in and dismisses Alien3, which is just as flawed.
It has nothing to do with being fashionable. It has a great deal to do with which flaws are appealing. The two films are like mashed potatoes: some people like lumps, some people like too much garlic. (Come to think of it, Alien³ is kinda lumpy and there is way too much garlic in A:R.)
It has something to do with being fashionable. Some people make valid arguments against Resurrection (it's not terribly hard); many don't.
Quote from: SM on Aug 09, 2010, 01:27:24 AM
It has something to do with being fashionable. Some people make valid arguments against Resurrection (it's not terribly hard); many don't.
I dunno. Somehow, I don't see those who make arguments against it (valid or otherwise) as seeking approval, status, peer acceptance, or any other thing, but as them simply expressing their dissatisfaction with it.
Sure, there are some invalid arguments made against it, but the people making them are not worried about trends or anything like that; they just like to spout off to make themselves feel better and others not so well. If it attracts positive attention, so be it. But I just can't see them doing it because "it's the thing to do".
I like garlic.
Personally I wish Alien3 was never made, I only want James Cameron and Ridley Scott directing these. :-\
But, yes I wish she, along with Hicks, survived because killing them at the start of the movie was a huge insult to James Cameron. They were basically saying, "F*ck you James Cameron, we don't need your characters." >:(
Irrationality at it's finest, killing off Newt and Hicks made the movie better so deal with it.
Quote from: PredalienXenomorph on Aug 15, 2010, 10:11:43 AM
Irrationality at it's finest, killing off Newt and Hicks made the movie better so deal with it.
Sure.
Read Valaquens' blog for his Alien 3 review...he discusses that...in detail.
Quote from: Valaquen's article
...Um... Horny?
LMAO
Yeah, his blog is rife with humour...all the better to mock with. :D
Quote from: Spartan-034 on Aug 15, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
Personally I wish Alien3 was never made, I only want James Cameron and Ridley Scott directing these. :-\
If your beef is about a plot element, they wouldn't be 100% responsible for the scripts or storylines.
Quote from: Spartan-034 on Aug 15, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
But, yes I wish she, along with Hicks, survived because killing them at the start of the movie was a huge insult to James Cameron.
Why should anyone have to give him unconditional respect? The franchise belonged to Brandywine and not Cameron.
Quote from: Spartan-034 on Aug 15, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
They were basically saying, "F*ck you James Cameron, we don't need your characters." >:(
Nobody was making any kind of statement; they were just making a movie. And,
no, they didn't need Cameron's characters for it.
Quote from: maledoro on Aug 15, 2010, 07:22:57 PM
Quote from: Spartan-034 on Aug 15, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
But, yes I wish she, along with Hicks, survived because killing them at the start of the movie was a huge insult to James Cameron.
Why should anyone have to give him unconditional respect? The franchise belonged to Brandywine and not Cameron.
Even Cameron's over it. Best to just move on.
After 18 god-damned years, everyone should have been over it and had moved on.
Well, after two decades, I don't think I can get over Rocky V yet, if ever. :P
Newt should of been In Alien 3, alive and I also would of liked Hicks too live aswell.
Quote from: galaxys ultimate hunter on Aug 15, 2010, 09:13:40 PM
Newt should of been In Alien 3, alive and I also would of liked Hicks too live aswell.
Pre-emptive Maledoro answer: Newt
was in Alien 3
:D
Quote from: Valaquen on Aug 15, 2010, 09:21:33 PM
Quote from: galaxys ultimate hunter on Aug 15, 2010, 09:13:40 PM
Newt should of been In Alien 3, alive and I also would of liked Hicks too live aswell.
Pre-emptive Maledoro answer: Newt was in Alien 3
:D
And Hicks, too,
was alive in it as well...
;D
How cool would that have been?
They do the scene at the start with the readout overlay and Hicks is still breathing and groaning, despite having little to groan with.
'Cpl. Dwayne Hicks
L55321 MORTALLY WOUNDED'
*death rattle*
*backpsace, backspace'
'Cpl. Dwayne Hicks
L55321 DEAD'
Quote from: Spartan-034 on Aug 15, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
Personally I wish Alien3 was never made, I only want James Cameron and Ridley Scott directing these. :-\
But, yes I wish she, along with Hicks, survived because killing them at the start of the movie was a huge insult to James Cameron. They were basically saying, "F*ck you James Cameron, we don't need your characters." >:(
The death of Hicks and Newt helped create that level melancholy that Alien3 strived for. Even without a finalized script to work on, it was always established that Alien3 would be a very bleak film. So in that sense, they did indeed need James Cameron's characters to help create the mood of the film. Killing off characters that fans had grown to love over the course of Aliens within minutes of the opening credits of Alien3 took the audience out of their comfort zone and added a sense of insecurity that resonated until the ending of the film.
The third film in any film franchise usually lacks the polish and sophistication of its predecessors. Alien3 wasn't the sequel I was hoping for...but I understand it as an attempt to keep the franchise "scary" into the third film of the series. In some ways it succeeds where others fail.
Unfortunately it took the audience too far out of the comfort zone and instead of filling them with uncertainty, it just pissed them off.
Quote from: SM on Aug 16, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Unfortunately it took the audience too far out of the comfort zone and instead of filling them with uncertainty, it just pissed them off.
I still find it amazing how good and memorable the characters in movies used to be if people were and still are so outraged about the loss of some of them. And whats even more amazing that those characters are from a scifi monster movie. Really an amazing feat
I'd hardly call Newt particularly good or memorable. She just screamed. I can barely remember anything about Hicks either, but maybe that's just me. I'd imagine it's not their death itself that bothers people but how they died. They were brought back after a happy ending only to be virtually tossed aside in the opening credits. Maybe if they had been heroically mauled to death by an Alien, people would be alright with it. Who knows.
Well Newt was just a child so shes not gonna be any exceptional but I think its just natural to root for a helpless child that went through such terror, and while watching a movie we care for the character and are afraid for her. Hick is this action hero who is a good soldier, always thinking clearly, always knowing whats the right thing to do even in extreme situations and yet not being a robotic overly badass Stallone type of a guy but a real person.. He was even more clear headed then Ripley. and also very skilled. The usernames and Hicks avatars appearing on numerous forums speak for themselves. I think for those qualities they were the most likeable and characters in the series aside from Ripley- a traumatized child and a good American soldier. Them and Parker I believe
I think the removal of Hick and Newt from the story was good in the sense that Ripley had nothing to lean on. If she had a child that shared a mutual love with her, or a man who could help and protect her, then the whole situation she was in would have been toned down and her ultimate sacrifice would have been less meaningful. So for the story, it worked. However, the story could have been changed to include them, but EVERYTHING about the movie would have had to have changed. They wouldn't have worked well with the setting and storyline.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 01:23:26 PM
I think the removal of Hick and Newt from the story was good in the sense that Ripley had nothing to lean on. If she had a child that shared a mutual love with her, or a man who could help and protect her, then the whole situation she was in would have been toned down and her ultimate sacrifice would have been less meaningful. So for the story, it worked.
Oh trust me, I FULLY agree. My first post from this thread:
QuoteWell Im a big, big fan of Alien 3 so I wouldnt change much in it, I would only corrected some mytho mistakes and plotholes but other than that Id leave everything intact. It wouldve been better and more humane to have just Ripley eject from the ship, but on the other hand the movie would loose the strong emotional punch and there wouldnt be anything to trigger Ripley's metamorphosis into a masculine, emotionally burned out person.
Just leave the autopsy out of the movie. That would be my only request. Its just sick and really unhealthy. I would never want to see , even in a movie, an autopsy on a child. There are limits
QuoteI would never want to see , even in a movie, an autopsy on a child.
Why not?
I don't see how that breaks limits. It didn't even show her getting cut open, just heard it and saw blood...and innards. They didn't show Clemens sawing her chest open.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 01:42:50 PM
I don't see how that breaks limits. It didn't even show her getting cut open, just heard it and saw blood...and innards. They didn't show Clemens sawing her chest open.
The answer is simple - seeing an autopsy of a child isnt enjoyable and I think its sick. I would never ever want to see it in real life and I wouldnt want to see a little girl that I used to root for being cracked and cut like a meat in a movie either. Im not one of those people who enjoy Hostel movies and all that. And its always a difference when it comes to a child
Well, I certainly don't want to see it, but it didn't bother me in the slightest. It was necessary to do an autopsy given the disease that Ripley told Clemens that Newt had. However, whether or not they should have shown it is up for debate...but I didn't mind. Adds to the tone/mood of the film.
A3 was OK, because it didn't come across as gratuitous. Like you said, you hardly really saw anything. And it needed to be done for plot reasons.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 01:23:26 PMIf she had a child that shared a mutual love with her, or a man who could help and protect her, then the whole situation she was in would have been toned down and her ultimate sacrifice would have been less meaningful.
I disagree. Being stripped of your life makes it easier to take the plunge, she had nothing to live for, literally. Had they lived, there would have been temptation for her to survive.
QuoteI disagree. Being stripped of your life makes it easier to take the plunge, she had nothing to live for, literally. Had they lived, there would have been temptation for her to survive.
True, true...but then again, that situation probably wouldn't have come up, because Hicks would have just shot her like she asked him to do in
Aliens. As it is, she also had a man promising her survival and the eradication of the alien species...yet she overcame that so that there was absolutely no traces of the alien remaining and that she had personal closure: she dies, the alien dies. The alien is her life, so her killing herself kills the alien for good. At least until Resurrection. ::)
Ripley didnjt crawl out of the led, shes still dead in Resurrection. What Weaver plays is one of 8 mutated crossover clones made up from dead Ripley's blood. Thanks to that its easier to diregard Resurrection as part of the series because its a separate story - different times, different hero and protagonist. No Ripley (who died on Fury) , no WY
Meh, details.
Quote from: PredalienXenomorph on Aug 15, 2010, 10:11:43 AM
Irrationality at it's finest, killing off Newt and Hicks made the movie better so deal with it.
He
is dealing with it. By expressing his opinion in this thread. :)
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 02:37:05 PM
QuoteI disagree. Being stripped of your life makes it easier to take the plunge, she had nothing to live for, literally. Had they lived, there would have been temptation for her to survive.
True, true...but then again, that situation probably wouldn't have come up, because Hicks would have just shot her like she asked him to do in Aliens. As it is, she also had a man promising her survival and the eradication of the alien species...yet she overcame that so that there was absolutely no traces of the alien remaining and that she had personal closure: she dies, the alien dies. The alien is her life, so her killing herself kills the alien for good. At least until Resurrection. ::)
I don't think Hicks would have immediately blown her head off, there would be some drama and difficult choices for both parties. That's the sacrifice part. Instead, we have Bishop II and WY goons screaming about magnificent specimens and Ripley standing alone. It was not a sacrifice, Alien3 makes a big point about Ripley being isolated and alone and utterly defeated, but wants us to accept that in the end she's sacrificing something (her life and prospects) for nothing (oblivion), when in fact she had no life, no family, no friends, no prospects, and an alien life-form about to puncture through her ribcage, meaning a horrific death. All she does is flip WY the bird, at best. The Aliens were eradicated at the end of Aliens, they came into Alien 3 via plot holes. My biggest beef with A3 is that Ripley retreads her Aliens path and the film wants to pretend that it's all new - that we finally get closure with Ripley and the Aliens, which we already had in the last movie.
QuoteMy biggest beef with A3 is that Ripley retreads her Aliens path and the film wants to pretend that it's all new - that we finally get closure with Ripley and the Aliens, which we already had in the last movie.
Alien 3 was the period at the end of a long sentence, answering questions that had been left unanswered previously and closing the series. How they went about doing it (i.e with the egg on board and two facehuggers) is the only really questionable part about the whole thing. However, I tend to agree with almost all of what you wrote.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 04:07:27 PM
Alien 3 was the period at the end of a long sentence, answering questions that had been left unanswered previously and closing the series.
I'm just wondering, what unanswered questions? There was complete closure at the end of Aliens.
Well, mainly coming to the conclusion of the characters that set off into space (Hicks, Newt and Ripley). Aliens picked up where Alien left off (i.e with Ripley floating off into space) and continued her story, then Alien3 comes along and does the same thing, but slams the door shut for any sequel (supposedly ::) ).
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 04:20:17 PM
Well, mainly coming to the conclusion of the characters that set off into space (Hicks, Newt and Ripley). Aliens picked up where Alien left off (i.e with Ripley floating off into space) and continued her story, then Alien3 comes along and does the same thing, but slams the door shut for any sequel (supposedly ::) ).
Well, I think what was meant to happen was obvious and they were packed off home. It wasn't a pressing issue to address what happened. Aliens took Ripley somewhere she hadn't been in Alien, it was just an unnecessary retread after wards. Anyway, I think you know my feelings about it :P
Yes, i do know your feelings about it, and I tend to agree. However, after watching Alien, I wanted to know what happened to Ripley. Did she fly into a star? Did she collide with another ship? Did she get shot down by the death star? ( ;) ) That was what Aliens answered for me. So when I saw that Aliens ended almost the exact same way, I kind of felt as if I, as a fan, was entitled to a sequel that would actually provide some closure and not leave me wondering about all these questions.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 04:48:31 PM
Yes, i do know your feelings about it, and I tend to agree. However, after watching Alien, I wanted to know what happened to Ripley. Did she fly into a star? Did she collide with another ship? Did she get shot down by the death star? ( ;) ) That was what Aliens answered for me. So when I saw that Aliens ended almost the exact same way, I kind of felt as if I, as a fan, was entitled to a sequel that would actually provide some closure and not leave me wondering about all these questions.
Well, that's fair enough. I would have rather had new protags and situations, since I feel th end was pretty conclusive, but one thing you learn from Alien, if FOX wants it, then nothing is conclusive!
Which Alien3 and Resurrection demonstrate in spades.
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 04:57:19 PM
Which Alien3 and Resurrection demonstrate in spades.
Resurrection? Never heard of it! :D
Quote from: Valaquen on Aug 16, 2010, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 02:37:05 PM
QuoteI disagree. Being stripped of your life makes it easier to take the plunge, she had nothing to live for, literally. Had they lived, there would have been temptation for her to survive.
True, true...but then again, that situation probably wouldn't have come up, because Hicks would have just shot her like she asked him to do in Aliens. As it is, she also had a man promising her survival and the eradication of the alien species...yet she overcame that so that there was absolutely no traces of the alien remaining and that she had personal closure: she dies, the alien dies. The alien is her life, so her killing herself kills the alien for good. At least until Resurrection. ::)
I don't think Hicks would have immediately blown her head off, there would be some drama and difficult choices for both parties. That's the sacrifice part. Instead, we have Bishop II and WY goons screaming about magnificent specimens and Ripley standing alone. It was not a sacrifice, Alien3 makes a big point about Ripley being isolated and alone and utterly defeated, but wants us to accept that in the end she's sacrificing something (her life and prospects) for nothing (oblivion), when in fact she had no life, no family, no friends, no prospects, and an alien life-form about to puncture through her ribcage, meaning a horrific death. All she does is flip WY the bird, at best. The Aliens were eradicated at the end of Aliens, they came into Alien 3 via plot holes. My biggest beef with A3 is that Ripley retreads her Aliens path and the film wants to pretend that it's all new - that we finally get closure with Ripley and the Aliens, which we already had in the last movie.
Hmmmm. now thats an interesting POV and Ive never thought of it that way, youre right, it wasnt much of a sacrifice if any at all. Still, I dont think anything can make me dislike that movie
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 16, 2010, 05:27:29 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Aug 16, 2010, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Aug 16, 2010, 02:37:05 PM
QuoteI disagree. Being stripped of your life makes it easier to take the plunge, she had nothing to live for, literally. Had they lived, there would have been temptation for her to survive.
True, true...but then again, that situation probably wouldn't have come up, because Hicks would have just shot her like she asked him to do in Aliens. As it is, she also had a man promising her survival and the eradication of the alien species...yet she overcame that so that there was absolutely no traces of the alien remaining and that she had personal closure: she dies, the alien dies. The alien is her life, so her killing herself kills the alien for good. At least until Resurrection. ::)
I don't think Hicks would have immediately blown her head off, there would be some drama and difficult choices for both parties. That's the sacrifice part. Instead, we have Bishop II and WY goons screaming about magnificent specimens and Ripley standing alone. It was not a sacrifice, Alien3 makes a big point about Ripley being isolated and alone and utterly defeated, but wants us to accept that in the end she's sacrificing something (her life and prospects) for nothing (oblivion), when in fact she had no life, no family, no friends, no prospects, and an alien life-form about to puncture through her ribcage, meaning a horrific death. All she does is flip WY the bird, at best. The Aliens were eradicated at the end of Aliens, they came into Alien 3 via plot holes. My biggest beef with A3 is that Ripley retreads her Aliens path and the film wants to pretend that it's all new - that we finally get closure with Ripley and the Aliens, which we already had in the last movie.
Hmmmm. now thats an interesting POV and Ive never thought of it that way, youre right, it wasnt much of a sacrifice if any at all. Still, I dont think anything can make me dislike that movie
Well, you know we're really in the same boat, for all its ridiculous plot holes and its utterly redundant heroine, I still like and watch A3. Where we differ is in what cut is best, but still ;)
As many times as I've watched that movie, I still love it and accept the faults. I love Alien 3.
I don't see the big deal if she lived in the movie? I feel like their was more emontion in the movie when she was killed off. I think having her alive won't be any different.
QuoteI feel like their was more emontion in the movie when she was killed off. I think having her alive won't be any different.
???
There's more emotion when she dies, but it wouldn't be any different if she lived?
Quote from: SM on Aug 19, 2010, 05:51:50 AM
There's more emotion when she dies, but it wouldn't be any different if she lived?
If she had lived, there'd be even
more emotion from the audience: rage.
Quote from: maledoro on Aug 23, 2010, 10:32:09 PM
Quote from: SM on Aug 19, 2010, 05:51:50 AM
There's more emotion when she dies, but it wouldn't be any different if she lived?
If she had lived, there'd be even more emotion from the audience: rage.
That happened regardless.
Quote from: Valaquen on Aug 23, 2010, 10:34:34 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Aug 23, 2010, 10:32:09 PM
Quote from: SM on Aug 19, 2010, 05:51:50 AM
There's more emotion when she dies, but it wouldn't be any different if she lived?
If she had lived, there'd be even more emotion from the audience: rage.
That happened regardless.
I said there would be even more rage if she had lived.
::)
I think it'd even out. The people who like her wouldn't rage any more, but the people who didn't, would.
I dont want to sound offensive or challenging, but how can you not like a frightened child who's in half-trauma and doesnt even say much?
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 24, 2010, 01:30:13 AM
I dont want to sound offensive or challenging, but how can you not like a frightened child who's in half-trauma and doesnt even say much?
Because, personally, I dislike characters that are nothing but a hinderance. Which Newt most certainly is (except in the vent shaft scene).
Ive never seen her that way. Children in horror movies or thrown into a danger zone are a very effective storytelling device, not to mention she played a crucial role in Ripley's story and character arc here. Its a great contrast of innocence and terror.
Children have forever been known as the completely perfect symbol of innocence. They are too young to understand the horrors, trials, and tribulations of the world and therefore are last in line to suffer the consequences. To put it in a few words, they don't know any better. It is just natural that one would be afraid for the frightened , innocent child who already went through hell and that it would even heighten the stakes.
This girl, who never did any harm to anyone, was unwillingly thrust into a world of pure horror and evil. I'm not a parent myself, but I'm pretty sure that seeing a child in the midst of such horror should touch something in us.
And of course, Newt had this great relationship with Ripley. One of Newt's purposes in the story is to supplement Ripley's character and basically provide motivation for everything Ripley does. Newt is, in turn an actual child thrown into a terrifying situation where she is scared for his life. She was there to round out the main character of the movie like every other character in the movie. This was a fantastic way to build personalities and ideals of your main character while really hammering home a strong and worthy supporting cast.
I didnt want her to live through Aliens!!!!
Newt should have died, here's why:
*The actress was too old to play her
*Newt's character arc was done, what was she to become the next Ripley or something else retarded?
*She was merely a plot device in Aliens, the "damsel in distress" who needs saving
*She is a fairly useless character otherwise (see the little girl in AVPR, no point her being there at all)
*Alien 3 gave the character alot more respect than she deserved IMO
Quote from: #6.0 on Aug 24, 2010, 03:59:29 AM
I didnt want her to live through Aliens!!!!
lol
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 24, 2010, 01:30:13 AM
I dont want to sound offensive or challenging, but how can you not like a frightened child who's in half-trauma and doesnt even say much?
Because she's a character in a movie, not a real person :P
Globally agree with what S
trangeShape said.
Quote from: Wristblades on Aug 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
*The actress was too old to play her
And? It wasn't like they didn't change the script from start to end of production...
Quote from: Wristblades on Aug 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
*She is a fairly useless character otherwise (see the little girl in AVPR, no point her being there at all)
It's like comparing Ripley to wazzerface military woman in AvPR. same story.
Quote from: Wristblades on Aug 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
*Alien 3 gave the character alot more respect than she deserved IMO
Not at all. She was discarded in the first minutes. Not using this as a device to criticize the film, but really, it's all
but respectful. We even have an autopsy.
Quote from: Wristblades on Aug 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
Newt should have died, here's why:
*The actress was too old to play her
So? Alien 3 didn't have to start 2 weeks after Aliens.
QuoteNewt's character arc was done, what was she to become the next Ripley or something else retarded?
Ripley's arc was also done in Aliens.
QuoteShe was merely a plot device in Aliens, the "damsel in distress" who needs saving
There was more to her than needing saved, she as to parallel Ripley as a survivor of a horrific event. They were in a similar situation.
QuoteShe is a fairly useless character otherwise (see the little girl in AVPR, no point her being there at all)
AVPR made the Aliens look useless.
QuoteAlien 3 gave the character alot more respect than she deserved IMO
I disagree. I don't like seeing the corpses of children, especially when they're lying dead and frozen in terror, or being hacked open. If I wanted to see that I'd move to Glasgow.
QuoteSo? Alien 3 didn't have to start 2 weeks after Aliens.
Except it did.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Aug 24, 2010, 01:30:13 AM
I dont want to sound offensive or challenging, but how can you not like a frightened child who's in half-trauma and doesnt even say much?
Because it has been done in other films and I've never been a fan of generic innocents.
Quote from: SM on Aug 24, 2010, 11:57:15 PM
QuoteSo? Alien 3 didn't have to start 2 weeks after Aliens.
Except it did.
At the end of production. There was a constant script-change during it. They could've just justified this by starting the film some years after.
Quote from: SM on Aug 24, 2010, 11:57:15 PM
QuoteSo? Alien 3 didn't have to start 2 weeks after Aliens.
Except it did.
Didn't have to.
Seeing as Newt is either mostly or entirely missing from every single Alien3 script, I'm guessing it kinda did have to according to the people making it.
QuoteAt the end of production.
At the
start of PRE-production.
The making-of documentaries agree with SM.
Reality agrees with SM.
Ripley coulda dissolved into dust at the start of Aliens too - but she didn't.
Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2010, 11:58:42 PM
Seeing as Newt is either mostly or entirely missing from every single Alien3 script, I'm guessing it kinda did have to according to the people making it.
I'm not arguing for her inclusion. I'm saying Alien 3 didn't have to start weeks after Aliens. Net did not have to die to justify Carrie Henn not playing the role. Either don't include the character, or come up with a better excuse for off'ing her.
Quote from: SM on Aug 26, 2010, 12:34:23 AM
Ripley coulda dissolved into dust at the start of Aliens too - but she didn't.
Funnily enough, that was a joke sequel Weaver used to throw around the dinner table with Giler & Hill.
It was also an idea Cameron had if Weaver decided against returning.
Quote from: SM on Aug 26, 2010, 02:13:40 AM
It was also an idea Cameron had if Weaver decided against returning.
Really? I've never heard it, the only non-Weaver-in-Aliens stuff I've heard is that Cameron adamantly wouldn't do it without her, and when Sigourney was taking her time deciding if she'd be in the film, he let on that he was writing a Ripley-less script - she signed on the next day.
Where'd you hear that story?
Aliens - The Official Movie Magazine. Was never actually planned, it was just an option Cameron had.
Quote from: SM on Aug 26, 2010, 02:28:32 AM
Aliens - The Official Movie Magazine. Was never actually planned, it was just an option Cameron had.
Thanks very much, I'll check it out.
The real question is : should have Hicks survived ? Because Michael Biehn wanted to play in the movie, and he could have if Fox hadn't decided it would have been funnier to kill him.
About Newt, the actress got very bad looking, and treated as an adult she surely would have been pointless. I mean, Ripley is here, what is Newt supposed to do ? Screaming again ?
After having watched A3AC some days ago, I say yes. It would have been interesting to see how things would have progressed with her around, actual film script (the one which arrived to be filmed) or the other ones.
A dead newt is a good newt, same goes for the hicks out there.
Excellent argument.
Quote from: Valaquen on Aug 24, 2010, 10:49:13 AM
I disagree. I don't like seeing the corpses of children, especially when they're lying dead and frozen in terror, or being hacked open. If I wanted to see that I'd move to Glasgow.
Is that a pun of how Aliens Wars was at Glasgow recently or was that a coincidence?
Quote from: Slithar on Aug 29, 2010, 06:28:05 PM
About Newt, the actress got very bad looking, and treated as an adult she surely would have been pointless. I mean, Ripley is here, what is Newt supposed to do ? Screaming again ?
They could have changed actresses.
Quote from: predxeno on Aug 30, 2010, 05:12:40 PM
Is that a pun of how Aliens Wars was at Glasgow recently or was that a coincidence?
Coincidence. Glasgow is not a place where I feel safe walking the streets.
You might feel more comfortable if the Aliens Wars event was real and aliens escaped into the neighborhood. At least now you will be running from creatures that you know a lot about rather than humans you know nothing about.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Aug 29, 2010, 07:36:13 PM
A dead newt is a good newt, same goes for the hicks out there.
I am with you until the comma.