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Posted by The Old One
 - Sep 17, 2019, 11:08:56 PM
I don't care, just here for the theorising myself.
Posted by Xenomrph
 - Sep 14, 2019, 09:01:23 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Sep 12, 2019, 08:23:26 AM
"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."
-david in the movie

"We took it into a different direction. The Engineers didn't make him [the Alien], David made him; which I thought was far more interesting."

"he designed this motherf**ker — rather than it came from the Engineers it came from him, but he needed to use their black deadly cleansing lotion."

-ridley scott in two separate interviews


it's not that hard folks
Not sure what your point is.
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
 - Sep 13, 2019, 09:13:06 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Sep 12, 2019, 06:38:18 PM
nah my bad I hadn't read the thread in ages and it brought me to another page. cheers

Speaking of past readings, I reread your essay about Prometheus. There you have pointed out an interesting (at least for me) implication:

Quote from: OmegaThe new concept can be interpreted in an array of ways: we have the faces of men, but carry the exterior masks of monsters; the exterior 'monstrous' suit could also refer to the fact we are not able to recognize ourselves, or the fact that we are the monsters — the appearence of the suits would then reflect our real nature. Et cetera. The theme and idea rather obviously do not remain contained to Prometheus, but also extend to Alien — and it is here that the radical change in mentality is most evident. The Derelict Pilot, once the symbol of the vastity of the universe, becomes the diametrical opposite. The cosmos is now presented as, and feels much smaller than before: in the deepest corner of space, what humanity finds is itself. No matter how far we go and what unknown worlds we might be able to explore: what we will meet, what we will challenge and face, is ourselves. Dallas labels the suit as an 'alien lifeform'; it is not to be forgotten that at the time the film was made, the Pilot was nothing more or less than an extraterrestrial carcass. The brief description given by the captain is what the film wanted to say, without suggesting or implying anything else — it was all there was to it: an alien lifeform. With the introduction of Prometheus, instead, what the Nostromo crewmembers witness is a decayed biomechanical suit with a human inside. They are, however, unable to recognize it. What we do not know is what we cannot recognize — and the most direct conclusion is that we are estranged from ourselves. We are the unknown. Ironic it is, then, that humanity travels to the farthest points of space — when it still does not completely comprehend its own nature.

So while in Alien we have this horror setting, where humans are facing utterly incomprehensible creatures, who care nothing for mankind and its pretensions; Prometheus comes to shrink the universe a bit with its anthropocentric science fiction tale. But even keeping in mind how the retroactive continuity has changed the way we interpret the first Alien, the prequels have something to tell, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea. So, the Lovecraftian cosmic horror has morphed into a Kafkaesque plot twist, whose key piece is the existential darkness of human consciousness. That said, maybe the incomprehensible "Unknown" it's human nature itself. We aren't able to recognize ourselves, and maybe the biomechanical space suits are a reflection of the monstrous hidden nature of human beings. Gods and monsters; we are both.

Well, even Scott pointed out something about how indoctrination  doesn't let us see what's hidden there, when the idea of the biomechanical suit was born.

Quote from: Ridley ScottI thought, what if this is not a skeleton, because we only see it as a skeleton, because of our own, the way we see things in our own indoctrination; what happens if it's another form of protection or a suit?

I would say that the final girl is a victim of her own confirmation bias and religious indoctrination. She can't handle the truth, or at least not entirely. She learn that humans were created by an ancient human culture from space, and yet she still believes in some kind of mystic creator. The movie seems to play with symbolism. That cross. She kinda had the answers in her hands all the time, and wherever she goes, she will find herself.


The cross in the Christian religion is a symbol associated with a dying-and-rising deity. But the truth is that such concept is an archetype and can be found in many other cultures and religions, even older than Christianity itself. That said, at the star of Prometheus we have an Engineer sacrificing and dying in order to create life on Earth. However, from a certain point of view (thank you Obi Wan) he has risen, because we are like him. Actually we are one and the same according to the film.


There is a short story written by Andy Weir (The Martian) that deals with a similar idea (albeit at a more metaphysical level so to speak) about seeking answers to existential questions only to find ourselves as the answer.


I prefer cosmic horror though, so *Make the Space Jockey Great Again* in the future  :laugh:

Posted by OmegaZilla
 - Sep 12, 2019, 06:38:18 PM
nah my bad I hadn't read the thread in ages and it brought me to another page. cheers
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
 - Sep 12, 2019, 09:53:04 AM
I can't speak for everyone, but I never said the Engineers are the creators of the Alien. I've given credit to David for that, but also I point out the possibility of someone changing his mind in the future. The rest is my pretentious interpretation of the prequels.

It's not that hard indeed. I'd say it's just reading comprehension.

Cheers!
Posted by SM
 - Sep 12, 2019, 09:21:05 AM
One would think so.
Posted by OmegaZilla
 - Sep 12, 2019, 08:23:26 AM
"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."
-david in the movie

"We took it into a different direction. The Engineers didn't make him [the Alien], David made him; which I thought was far more interesting."

"he designed this motherf**ker — rather than it came from the Engineers it came from him, but he needed to use their black deadly cleansing lotion."

-ridley scott in two separate interviews


it's not that hard folks
Posted by Voodoo Magic
 - Sep 11, 2019, 01:53:28 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 11, 2019, 12:55:22 AM
I'd say so, I'd say Alien Covenant certainly is, with science fiction not having much of a bearing on it.

Well that's two then, sis.  :)

I'm certainly a fan of Bram Stoker's Dracula, even though I think other actors could have performed better than Keanu & Winona. Maybe I should look into the genre more.
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
 - Sep 11, 2019, 12:57:42 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 10, 2019, 10:50:24 PM
The idea's got merit, especially within the Gothic Romantic Horror genre- just not enough to override the ancient unknowable entity idea.

The Neomorph arriving at the temple seems like something from an Edgar Alan Poe tale. It's a whole vampiric atmosphere, with the ghostly Neo scouting the dark place for some entry and the two spooky looking bas-relief in the gates of the Cathedral (William Blake imagery).



That monster is very well handled. They didn't build an atmosphere with this quality for the Alien, unfortunately. But the idea as a whole has merits without doubt. It all starts in paradise, David's Valhalla. Almost like a metaverse where the echoes of Friedrich Nietzsche & Richard Wagner can be heard it. The battle between science vs religion, critical thinking vs magical thinking, Nietzsche vs Wagner; they are false gods.You are a human, you will die, I will not. God is dead.


The Übermensch is free to complete his agenda. He prefers to reign in hell than to be a servant in heaven. But sometimes we leave Paradise Lost, and the conflict evolves into Science vs. Nature, once we are arriving into the Mary Shelley territory. A.I and its dangerous implications. The metaverse rises again, with a David drawing nightmarish pieces of art born from his dreams, some of these featuring his unlucky muse, Dr. Elizabeth Shaw. An odd parallel with Giger and Li Tobler. So, what can be experienced as a nightmare from a human perspective, it is an idyllic dream for an AI perspective. Monster to some, Perfect Organism to others (Ash & David).


David is a fragment of Prometheus DNA. The titan in the form of a majestic spaceship sent to the domains of those who came before, with the mission of taking a piece of knowledge from that sacred place; a piece of the fire of the gods. Knowledge is power, especially if it is beneficial for mankind.


Now, David has become the antithesis of the Prometheus concept as he plan to use that fire to destroy his creators. The Alien is a reflection of our deepest fears, even ancient fears. We don't deserve to start over and he's not going to let us, and sexual reproduction is going to become the core part of our destruction. But such sacrifice culminates in a new creation. He spent enough time on the island of the death to learn from their ways; cos sometimes in order to create, one must first destroy.



Or maybe we haven't reached the true island of the dead yet. I mean, who is the oarsman Charon here? you know, the boatman who ferries souls to the underworld through the waters of the river Acheron, in Greek mythology.



But more importantly. If the Alien is a mirror of our deepest fears...such reflection has been created...or resurrected? The movie says the first, but there is still a chance for the second one  8)


Posted by kwisatz
 - Sep 11, 2019, 12:56:22 AM
Ridley Scott has no penis?
Posted by The Old One
 - Sep 11, 2019, 12:55:22 AM
I'd say so, I'd say Alien Covenant certainly is, with science fiction not having much of a bearing on it.
Posted by Voodoo Magic
 - Sep 11, 2019, 12:26:21 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 10, 2019, 10:50:24 PM
The idea's got merit, especially within the Gothic Romantic Horror genre- just not enough to override the ancient unknowable entity idea.

Sidenote: I'm not certain I've watched anything in that genre. Does Bram Stoker's Dracula apply?
Posted by The Old One
 - Sep 10, 2019, 10:50:24 PM
The idea's got merit, especially within the Gothic Romantic Horror genre- just not enough to override the ancient unknowable entity idea.
Posted by SM
 - Sep 10, 2019, 10:10:25 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 10, 2019, 08:48:48 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHx6wffwFvJ2VLk-Xu1bPwQs4OgMIkp8q7UEs4YLqM4ed9suwl

So that's a no?

You should.  It's really cool.  It's got this sexually frustrated robot who tries to kill people by choking them with phallic objects and everything.
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