Posted by JP
- Mar 19, 2015, 03:19:59 PMQuoteWhat is that and more importantly, can it be used to screw around in single player?
Its just aimbot hack using the smartgun aim
Posted by quijju
- Mar 19, 2015, 12:44:46 PMQuoteand we haven't even covered one-button macros yet, thanks to AvP2's handy cursor center snap function which cheaters have been plugging into since the game debuted.[/quote
What is that and more importantly, can it be used to screw around in single player?
Posted by JP
- Mar 19, 2015, 04:02:45 AMQuote.
Wrong. and also wrong, you can program the clicks to be any speed using supplied software, and none of it is external or cheat based; comes with pretty much every mouse made that you don't buy at Staples for ten bucks
Using programs that are external to the game to improve your performance is cheating. You might as well rig your 11$ mouse to lock on every characters head if you dont consider that cheating.
Quote
Second the issue is unintended damage application, not whether you can achieve it every shot, you'd have figured that out if you could read. It can also be done with any front or forward side-facing model at will, there is no special anything about it.
Still is absolutely and completely irrelevant to this argument
QuoteSpecial motions? For someone crowing about skill yours must be pretty low, because there's nothing nuanced or special about it. The entire method of stagger is interrupting the first shot's animation with an overlapped repeat; thus uncoupling the animation with the damage instance, it's literally that cut and dried and that simple to do, and doesn't require ANY skill other than what's present in standard FPS play.
Ok now try to aim while doing that. But no mouse cheats plz.
QuoteAt all. It's a missing line in the model's firing sequence, not a secret technique you learned in the mystical foothills of China from l33+ pwn monks.
Might aswell be since it takes equal time to master. I Spend a full year climbing to the top of mount pwnz0r to learn the ways of the stagger with the mystical avp2 wise monks and there i unlocked the mystery of the 60 ms long pulse startfire animation in order to be the ultimate stagger pwner this game has ever seen, unfortunately im still not, but what the hell, its still a cool story.
Posted by Xhan
- Mar 19, 2015, 03:21:31 AMPretty clear whom has zero understanding.
Wrong. and also wrong, you can program the clicks to be any speed using supplied software, and none of it is external or cheat based; comes with pretty much every mouse made that you don't buy at Staples for ten bucks.
Second the issue is unintended damage application, not whether you can achieve it every shot, you'd have figured that out if you could read. It can also be done with any front or forward side-facing model at will, there is no special anything about it.
Special motions? For someone crowing about skill yours must be pretty low, because there's nothing nuanced or special about it. The entire method of stagger is interrupting the first shot's animation with an overlapped repeat; thus uncoupling the animation with the damage instance, it's literally that cut and dried and that simple to do, and doesn't require ANY skill other than what's present in standard FPS play. At all. It's a missing line in the model's firing sequence, not a secret technique you learned in the mystical foothills of China from l33+ pwn monks.
Then you haven't been playing much.
Wrong. and also wrong, you can program the clicks to be any speed using supplied software, and none of it is external or cheat based; comes with pretty much every mouse made that you don't buy at Staples for ten bucks.
Second the issue is unintended damage application, not whether you can achieve it every shot, you'd have figured that out if you could read. It can also be done with any front or forward side-facing model at will, there is no special anything about it.
Special motions? For someone crowing about skill yours must be pretty low, because there's nothing nuanced or special about it. The entire method of stagger is interrupting the first shot's animation with an overlapped repeat; thus uncoupling the animation with the damage instance, it's literally that cut and dried and that simple to do, and doesn't require ANY skill other than what's present in standard FPS play. At all. It's a missing line in the model's firing sequence, not a secret technique you learned in the mystical foothills of China from l33+ pwn monks.
Quoteis see this
Then you haven't been playing much.
Posted by KingKenny
- Mar 19, 2015, 02:17:50 AMUm, I'm not playing the game wrong. You're missing the logic.
I'm pointing out that stagger fires faster and thus causes more damage. Obviously you want to aim for head shots. Chest shots aren't instant kill.
I put both a normal pulse and a stagger pulse in the same exact situation on an equal playing field to demonstrate how stagger pulse wins every time.
You try to debate this by talking about technique/strategy/skill which is a different subject.
I'm talking apples to apples. You're talking apples to oranges.
I'm pointing out that stagger fires faster and thus causes more damage. Obviously you want to aim for head shots. Chest shots aren't instant kill.
I put both a normal pulse and a stagger pulse in the same exact situation on an equal playing field to demonstrate how stagger pulse wins every time.
You try to debate this by talking about technique/strategy/skill which is a different subject.
I'm talking apples to apples. You're talking apples to oranges.
Posted by JP
- Mar 19, 2015, 01:25:55 AMQuotePlayers 1 and 2 stand in front of each other with pulse rifles aiming at each others chest (center of hit detection box).
If you are aiming it at your oponent's chest you are playing the game wrong. With 100HP/100A the pusle rifle is 1 shot 1 kill, stagger or no stagger, so your scenario fails right there since both players would die at the exact same time.
QuoteYou fail pretty good at reading, so I'll clarify just this once, I said ->DPS<-, because optimal staggering creates up to three damage hitscan blobs instead of one; damage per shot being normalized doesn't mean anything because the engine is detecting 3 shots irrespective of the source, you're also conveniently ignoring the damage type of PR bullets do which directly affects the damage output thereof as bullets-no gib.
Secondly, I said neck shot for as a specific instance since the shot has to pass through the head hitbox to register as a neck shot unless it's from above and behind which means 25 damage is applied as 5x3x because of the size of the damage blob, aka 15x times the damage before resistance is applied, this is exact same method and functionality used to kill a full health praetorian in one sniper shot, which is perfectly doable, even in 100 ping+ differential situations.
15x DPS.
First of all stagger crates only 2 hitscans per mouse click, and this is only if you make every click perfect (only achievable through external software = cheating) and i said for the pulse bullet type the prae has 0.1 dmg resistance.
And then you are talking about a specific circumstance where the bullet travels through the nech and head hitboxes creating a dmg factor of 15, but on servers and not on paper the only time is see this is when you kill a queen with 1 sniper shot while aiming at the neck and even this doesnt happen on even 1% of all shots, so if your calculations where even close tho what happens in realith we would see praes dying in 2 pulse shots all the time.
Damn i want to learn how to do this too!
Can it happen? Probably. Does it happen? NO. And since my calculations describe much more accuratelly stagger gameplay against a prae i still call:
Quotecomplete and utter 100% bullshit
And even if you can make every shot go through the head and neck hitboxes you still can make it also with normal fire or am i missing something here? Besides, if you can actually do that with every single shot either you are the best fps player of all time or you have a great aimbot.
I really like how you take a freak circumstance that can also be achieved with normal fire or sniper as you say to claim that stagger does 15x dps. At leas im here defending my point using facts that i know are true, not throwing completely unrelated bullshit and false facts to the argument in order to make your point valid.
Quote
Not sure what kind of mouse you're using but any razer or logitech or steelseries mouse made after 2004 has had industry standard anti-travel and anti jitter implementation, your synthetic scenario doesn't really apply, and we haven't even covered one-button macros yet, thanks to AvP2's handy cursor center snap function which cheaters have been plugging into since the game debuted.
And we are finnaly on the practical aspect of the thing and obviously it already seems that this is already a case of someone that doesn have a clue about what they are talking about, but since im here to clarify people ill explain. The problem about stagging isnt about the jitter it causes from fast clicking, sure you can cheat with external software assistance ( which i dont, i use raw imput without acceleration), but that doesnt even matter to this case. The problem is making two distinct movements with your hand (similar to that tap head and rub belly thing), this is why most people have a very hard time moving the hand while fast clicking and to train your hand to do this takes an insane amout of time for reasons which you obviously would never understand.
QuoteAgain not sure what kind of rock and flint based mouse you're using, but any mouse made in the last 12 years is capable of far more than that, and mice made in the last 5 years are WAY more capable of that with zero travel, and again macros make even the most ligament-ally challenged player into a damage spamming superstar.
Now it is clear to me why you cant understand it when you suggest cheating with the assistance of external programs in order to stagg to prove how easy and cheap it is. And by the way not only macro has the most distinctive noise in the world but its also auto banned.
Posted by KingKenny
- Mar 19, 2015, 12:18:42 AMI wouldn't bother getting into the technical/skill discussion about stagger. It's irrelevant.
Player 1 picks marine Johnson.
Player 2 picks corporate Rykov.
Players 1 and 2 both have 100% health and full armor.
Players 1 and 2 stand in front of each other with pulse rifles aiming at each others chest (center of hit detection box).
Players 1 and 2 fire their pulse rifles at the same exact time.
Player 1 doesn't use stagger.
Player 2 uses stagger exclusively.
Who wins?
Player 2 wins, every time.
How is this fair?
It's not.
This doesn't even factor all the other weapons and attacks not having their own stagger to compensate for pulse stagger.
Stagger=exploit=glitching=Oddjob=unfair advantage=cheating.
I rest my case.
Player 1 picks marine Johnson.
Player 2 picks corporate Rykov.
Players 1 and 2 both have 100% health and full armor.
Players 1 and 2 stand in front of each other with pulse rifles aiming at each others chest (center of hit detection box).
Players 1 and 2 fire their pulse rifles at the same exact time.
Player 1 doesn't use stagger.
Player 2 uses stagger exclusively.
Who wins?
Player 2 wins, every time.
How is this fair?
It's not.
This doesn't even factor all the other weapons and attacks not having their own stagger to compensate for pulse stagger.
Stagger=exploit=glitching=Oddjob=unfair advantage=cheating.
I rest my case.
Posted by Xhan
- Mar 18, 2015, 11:27:19 PMQuote from: JP on Mar 18, 2015, 03:50:14 PMQuoteStagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.
Aactually its aprox 1,538 times the dmg/time compared to normal fire, dmg per shot stays the same since each bullet still does 25 base dmg.QuoteFeathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.
Sure now try to aim while doing thatQuoteKilling a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".Name = "Alien_Praetorian"
DefaultDeathAni = "Death"
DefaultHitNode = 0
Node2Name = "Neck_node"
Node2DeathAni = "T"
Node2Piece = "Torso"
Node2LimbAni = "Limb_Torso"
Node2GIBType = "Alien_Torso_Multi"
=====>Node2DamageFactor = 3.0<=====
Node2MinExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MinExplodeChance = 0.0
Node2MaxExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MaxExplodeChance = 0.25
Node2CanLiveExplode = 0
Node2ForceCrawl = 0
Node2BleederNode = -1
Node2Parent = 1
Node2Location = 2
Node2Radius = 9.75
Node2StrafeYawRange0 = (0,0)
Node2AimPitchRange0 = (65,45)
As you can clearly see there the dmg factor is 3x not 15 like you claim, and with a damage resistance of 0.1 (pulse shots do only 10% of the damage) it takes about 60 shots to kill a praetorian in the neck, or in best case scenario 36 shots if you hit all in the head. With a fire rate of 9.2 rounds per second in normal fire it takes 4 seconds to kill a prae with all headshots compared to the 2.5 seconds with stagger. And this is if you have perfect aim and stagger which not even someone like me can do against a bunny hopping prae for example and i very often get killed by the prae while staggering, so i can only imagine what its like for a novice player to face a praetorian...
And by this logic i also conclude that headshooting other characters is very wrong, so in the next patch we also need to remove location base damage..
[Praetorian_MP]
DefaultHitPoints = 440
MaxHitPoints = 440
1 hit kills with stagger and bullet dmg tripled? Maybe you should try to get some actual facts before even forming an opinion.QuoteYour argument is bullshit.
Maybe it is but at least its not my facts that are complete and utter 100% bullshit only design to twist the general opinion on this matter
You fail pretty good at reading, so I'll clarify just this once, I said ->DPS<-, because optimal staggering creates up to three damage hitscan blobs instead of one; damage per shot being normalized doesn't mean anything because the engine is detecting 3 shots irrespective of the source, you're also conveniently ignoring the damage type of PR bullets do which directly affects the damage output thereof as bullets-no gib.
Secondly, I said neck shot for as a specific instance since the shot has to pass through the head hitbox to register as a neck shot unless it's from above and behind which means 25 damage is applied as 5x3x because of the size of the damage blob, aka 15x times the damage before resistance is applied, this is exact same method and functionality used to kill a full health praetorian in one sniper shot, which is perfectly doable, even in 100 ping+ differential situations.
15x DPS.
Quotenow try aiming
Not sure what kind of mouse you're using but any razer or logitech or steelseries mouse made after 2004 has had industry standard anti-travel and anti jitter implementation, your synthetic scenario doesn't really apply, and we haven't even covered one-button macros yet, thanks to AvP2's handy cursor center snap function which cheaters have been plugging into since the game debuted.
Quote7 clicks
Again not sure what kind of rock and flint based mouse you're using, but any mouse made in the last 12 years is capable of far more than that, and mice made in the last 5 years are WAY more capable of that with zero travel, and again macros make even the most ligament-ally challenged player into a damage spamming superstar.
Stagger fire is bs, simple as.
Posted by DT
- Mar 18, 2015, 10:59:48 PMIt depents so much from the server. Some allow glitches, some like to play with leaguerules or something between those two. Its always been like that since the first day I started playing at 2003.
Like I said earlier about making a code to the patch which servermod makers can use to put an option to allow or disallow stagger, that would fix the problem. My apologises for saying some harsh words and attacking people at at my last post, it wont happen again.
Edit. Just checked the serverlist, im not suprised at all seeing people only playing at TBBC survivor all maps. All other servers are empty. I think the community talks for itself and plays where they want to play and follows the rules which are set on each communitys server.. tbh. usually that doesnt even happen, unfrotunately. But Im one of those very few players out there who usually tend to follow the server rules to exact point as they are given. If something is not allowed, I wont do it. If I see someone else going against the rules, I'll usually tell them to stop. If that doesnt work and theres no admins around, well.. theres nothing I can do about it then.
Like I said earlier about making a code to the patch which servermod makers can use to put an option to allow or disallow stagger, that would fix the problem. My apologises for saying some harsh words and attacking people at at my last post, it wont happen again.
Edit. Just checked the serverlist, im not suprised at all seeing people only playing at TBBC survivor all maps. All other servers are empty. I think the community talks for itself and plays where they want to play and follows the rules which are set on each communitys server.. tbh. usually that doesnt even happen, unfrotunately. But Im one of those very few players out there who usually tend to follow the server rules to exact point as they are given. If something is not allowed, I wont do it. If I see someone else going against the rules, I'll usually tell them to stop. If that doesnt work and theres no admins around, well.. theres nothing I can do about it then.
Posted by x-M-x
- Mar 18, 2015, 10:01:11 PMQuote from: Jegeren on Mar 18, 2015, 09:39:06 PM
Wait a moment... Admins are abusing glitches? What kind of madness is this? Man a lot has changed since I last played it seems.
Indeed.
Past admins wouldn't stand for this shit.
Posted by Jegeren
- Mar 18, 2015, 09:39:06 PMWait a moment... Admins are abusing glitches? What kind of madness is this? Man a lot has changed since I last played it seems.
Posted by Acid or Zaiko :)
- Mar 18, 2015, 04:29:39 PMGood point JP.
I dont get why people are so upset about stagger fire and all.For famous 2.0 stagg you need 7,0714285714.. click in second + you need to aim.Only character that is affected by stagg rate is runner since he can be killed really easy with stagg fire.And 95% of players dont have 2.0,they have around 1,75-1,85.Only important thing is aim since you need ONE bullet into head to kill human,two for drone,three for predalien(not 100% sure).
I dont get why people are so upset about stagger fire and all.For famous 2.0 stagg you need 7,0714285714.. click in second + you need to aim.Only character that is affected by stagg rate is runner since he can be killed really easy with stagg fire.And 95% of players dont have 2.0,they have around 1,75-1,85.Only important thing is aim since you need ONE bullet into head to kill human,two for drone,three for predalien(not 100% sure).
Posted by JP
- Mar 18, 2015, 03:50:14 PMQuoteStagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.
Aactually its aprox 1,538 times the dmg/time compared to normal fire, dmg per shot stays the same since each bullet still does 25 base dmg.
QuoteFeathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.
Sure now try to aim while doing that
QuoteKilling a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".
Name = "Alien_Praetorian"
DefaultDeathAni = "Death"
DefaultHitNode = 0
Node2Name = "Neck_node"
Node2DeathAni = "T"
Node2Piece = "Torso"
Node2LimbAni = "Limb_Torso"
Node2GIBType = "Alien_Torso_Multi"
=====>Node2DamageFactor = 3.0<=====
Node2MinExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MinExplodeChance = 0.0
Node2MaxExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MaxExplodeChance = 0.25
Node2CanLiveExplode = 0
Node2ForceCrawl = 0
Node2BleederNode = -1
Node2Parent = 1
Node2Location = 2
Node2Radius = 9.75
Node2StrafeYawRange0 = (0,0)
Node2AimPitchRange0 = (65,45)
DefaultDeathAni = "Death"
DefaultHitNode = 0
Node2Name = "Neck_node"
Node2DeathAni = "T"
Node2Piece = "Torso"
Node2LimbAni = "Limb_Torso"
Node2GIBType = "Alien_Torso_Multi"
=====>Node2DamageFactor = 3.0<=====
Node2MinExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MinExplodeChance = 0.0
Node2MaxExplodeDamage = 10.0
Node2MaxExplodeChance = 0.25
Node2CanLiveExplode = 0
Node2ForceCrawl = 0
Node2BleederNode = -1
Node2Parent = 1
Node2Location = 2
Node2Radius = 9.75
Node2StrafeYawRange0 = (0,0)
Node2AimPitchRange0 = (65,45)
As you can clearly see there the dmg factor is 3x not 15 like you claim, and with a damage resistance of 0.1 (pulse shots do only 10% of the damage) it takes about 60 shots to kill a praetorian in the neck, or in best case scenario 36 shots if you hit all in the head. With a fire rate of 9.2 rounds per second in normal fire it takes 4 seconds to kill a prae with all headshots compared to the 2.5 seconds with stagger. And this is if you have perfect aim and stagger which not even someone like me can do against a bunny hopping prae for example and i very often get killed by the prae while staggering, so i can only imagine what its like for a novice player to face a praetorian...
And by this logic i also conclude that headshooting other characters is very wrong, so in the next patch we also need to remove location base damage..
[Praetorian_MP]
DefaultHitPoints = 440
MaxHitPoints = 440
1 hit kills with stagger and bullet dmg tripled? Maybe you should try to get some actual facts before even forming an opinion.
QuoteYour argument is bullshit.
Maybe it is but at least its not my facts that are complete and utter 100% bullshit only design to twist the general opinion on this matter
Posted by Olde
- Mar 18, 2015, 06:12:58 AMQuote from: JP on Mar 18, 2015, 04:42:21 AM
Played 5 years straight as predalien only, can i play human now? And so you know i didnt always have the skill or whatever you want to call it with the pulse rifle so i too had to put up with godlike staggers before i get to this point and not once i complained.
It always amazes people that want others to play not in the way they want but in a way that pleases other players, this single line of tought ruins the entire concept of gaming. Not going to change my gameplay because others say so, i play the way i want and i want others to play the way they want.
That's how I play AVP Classic. People call me out on alien speed tricks, which are exploits. I can't convince anybody that they're a legitimate part of the game. However, I'll change the way I play when I'm playing someone who's not challenging for me. I won't go at my 100% and use the one-hit kills at mach speed when I'm going against new players who aren't familiar with the game, just trying to have fun, or politely ask me to not go crazy with the game. Usually I'll acquiesce because it's not fun for anyone to abuse exploits; not fun for me because it's not challenging and not fun for others because they feel it's unfair. The community is small enough as it is, and abusing exploits against noobs, especially when you don't need to, only causes fractures in the community, as we see here.
I'm not suggesting you have to change the way you play. But don't complain when people criticize you or other players and the community shrinks because you're scaring away new players by playing against them the way you'd play against vets, which doesn't make players feel welcome or appreciated, and not even trying to make the game appear fair.
Posted by Xhan
- Mar 18, 2015, 06:02:12 AMStagger is bullshit, pure and simple; no one intended the weapon to do three times the damage it's supposed to. per shot.
Killing a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".
Your argument is bullshit.
Total hypocrisy.
Feathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.
Quotethe way i want to
Killing a Prae with one "neck shot" has nothing do with playstyle and everything to do with exploiting a flaw Monolith was too lazy to fix. Pretty sure sure characters with hit box that covers a quarter of their body taking 15x normal DPS getting obliterated is not the "way they want to play".
Your argument is bullshit.
Total hypocrisy.
Quoteskill
Feathering a mouse button requires exactly zero skill.
