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Something which I wanted to hear from the fans and maybe even discuss. Let me get out that THIS IS NOT A CANON DEBATE but rather a discussion of an idea which may or may not be a neat idea to implement into the franchises. I have always believed that the idea of a multiverse opens up a lot of doors in the realm of fiction. The idea of a multiverse is something which is even discussed in the scientific community, and there is even evidence that our reality is one of many existing in a multiverse.

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=5907 (http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=5907)

So I was pondering the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse. You have three franchises (or four if you're counting Prometheus) with different storylines and different continuities. Considering the idea of the multiverse, there is no reason to believe that the history of one universe isn't different from another. Scientist have considered the idea that there is one universe which differs from ours such as Dinosaurs not being extinct among endless of other universe. Some have considered the idea of universes which have similar histories to our own but have different divergences from our own.

So what does the fandom think of the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse?

You need an option for 'Yes, there already is a multi-verse'.

Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2014, 10:26:38 PM
You need an option for 'Yes, there already is a multi-verse'.

Consider that added as of now!

But regarding that, it would be nice for Fox to actually address something like that, kind of like what Mirage Studios did for TMNT and Hasbro for Transformers.. I doubt that would ever happen though.

-Rakai'Thwei

Thank you.

It would seem that Fox is moving ahead with an attempt at a more cohesive continuity in upcoming releases starting with Out Of The Shadows.

I don't know if they're going to address the myriad existing releases going back 25 years - but the new continuity may tacetly put them in a seperate continuity, thereby creating a multiverse (for those who don't believe one already exists).

Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2014, 10:36:14 PM
It would seem that Fox is moving ahead with an attempt at a more cohesive continuity in upcoming releases starting with Out Of The Shadows.

I don't keep up with the news on the Alien books which are being released. I am more of a Predator and AvP fan than just strictly Alien, but I have noticed that Fox is seemingly going out of their way to re-invent the Alien and Predator franchises. Especially with the new comics, which I have been fortunate enough to get in touch with one of the writers.

Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2014, 10:36:14 PM
I don't know if they're going to address the myriad existing releases going back 25 years - but the new continuity may tacetly put them in a seperate continuity, thereby creating a multiverse (for those who don't believe one already exists).

So far a lot of companies really don't address previous releases, and I don't think that Fox would openly address such things. As we know they don't really care so much about maintaining continuity, and the start of a new one seems relatively easier to go that route. And of course we do know that they don't say anything on what's canon and what isn't. I for one believe or would like to believe, that there is an Alien-Predator multiverse, and I've been comparing the franchises to other unrelated franchises that have a similar situation-- such as Godzilla and Transformers. Godzilla has a nice thing going for it, and how the Kaiju eiga films such as Showa, Heisei, and Millennium don't acknowledge the previous films from certain eras. Then again I don't think Toho has addressed the idea of the multiverse for Godzilla, and that might be a generally accepted fan thing.

So I am relatively open to the idea that there is an Alien-Predator multiverse. Considering that Fox is going on ahead by rebooting the expanded universe materials such as the Alien books, and of course the Dark Horse comics.. That maybe the case. Then again the idea of the multiverse for Alien and Predator probably isn't new, considering the films and the different routes they go in.

-Rakai'Thwei

Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2014, 10:36:14 PM
I don't know if they're going to address the myriad existing releases going back 25 years - but the new continuity may tacetly put them in a seperate continuity, thereby creating a multiverse (for those who don't believe one already exists).

If Dark Horse's new comics are any indication, there definitely isn't a multiverse - they've been planning on having their four Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus series reference each other and be part of "a larger story".

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 09, 2014, 08:19:58 AM
If Dark Horse's new comics are any indication, there definitely isn't a multiverse - they've been planning on having their four Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus series reference each other and be part of "a larger story".

But the IO9 Articles did say that they were ignoring the previous publications altogether, and from the small talks that Christopher Sebela and I have had over at Tumblr, they they weren't even taking any of the past 25 years of material into consideration and account for them either. Sebela likens them to different neighborhoods in a big city..

Whatever that means but to me it sounds like a new continuity altogether.

And assuming what SM says regarding the books such as Out of the Shadows.. well, that may be the case. Assuming what he says turns out to be true.

-Rakai'Thwei

None of that really changes what I said, though - it's not a multiverse if it all takes place in the same universe. :)

I think it's fairly irrefutable that there already is a multiverse at work. The original Aliens comic run became a 'what if' scenario the moment Alien 3 was created, and then potentially reinserted within that continuity by the Hicks>Wilks / Newt>Billie / Ripley>Android retcon. There are probably many other examples, but these are the most apparent. Whether you reconcile this within the logic of the series as the traditional sci-fi idea of parallel universes is another matter. That kind of thing works thematically for a series like The Terminator, where time travel and the possibility of changing the future are central ideas, but perhaps only serves to distract in this instance.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 09, 2014, 08:52:54 AM
None of that really changes what I said, though - it's not a multiverse if it all takes place in the same universe. :)

AvP films included?

Quote from: The Necronoir on Jan 09, 2014, 09:24:46 AM
I think it's fairly irrefutable that there already is a multiverse at work. The original Aliens comic run became a 'what if' scenario the moment Alien 3 was created, and then potentially reinserted within that continuity by the Hicks>Wilks / Newt>Billie / Ripley>Android retcon.

I do remember the original Aliens comics which was intended to serve as a sequel to where ALIENS left off of, in fact I have some of the earlier comics when the Xenomorphs invaded Earth and when I had looked at the novels which were retconned to compensate for the Alien 3 movie, at first I had no idea that Billie and Wilks were meant to be Hicks and Newt until I researched this online years later on. With the retcons in place, I had assumed for years that they could still fit but now I'm reconsidering that.

Quote from: The Necronoir on Jan 09, 2014, 09:24:46 AM
There are probably many other examples, but these are the most apparent. Whether you reconcile this within the logic of the series as the traditional sci-fi idea of parallel universes is another matter. That kind of thing works thematically for a series like The Terminator, where time travel and the possibility of changing the future are central ideas, but perhaps only serves to distract in this instance.

The idea of a parallel universe doesn't necessarily need to be addressed. There are plenty of franchises out there that have different continuities which are explained as parallel universes without being addressed as such openly. The Godzilla franchise has this idea going for it for a lot of their films and licensed media. So why can't Alien-Predator?

I think multi-verse in story telling is a bit of double edged (or infinite edged) sword. Yes, it clears up some problems (Weyland vs Weyland, Hick vs Wilkes etc), but as time goes on, it can almost become a de-facto clause for "doing something a bit different." And then you can end up in a big mess.

Much like DC - they did away with the multi-verse in 1985 (I think) and slowly brought it back in. So much so that what was an "event" became a cliche.

So not for me - I'm hopeful that they can tie it all up with a neat bow. Though, it may mean that (as much as I love these movies) AvP and AvP:R may become the Superman III and IV of the franchise and be handwaved as SM says.

Cheers

Russ

Quote from: Russ on Jan 09, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
I think multi-verse in story telling is a bit of double edged (or infinite edged) sword. Yes, it clears up some problems (Weyland vs Weyland, Hick vs Wilkes etc), but as time goes on, it can almost become a de-facto clause for "doing something a bit different." And then you can end up in a big mess.

Again, the idea of the multiverse doesn't have to be openly addressed in the storylines. I do agree that it does clear up some problems here and there but I also don't think that it would be a bad thing. We already have storylines which actually do infact do something differently, and I could think of one off the top of my head. The Shirley and Greenberg novels completely eschew the Yautja mythology and installed the Hish mythology-- this storyline went on for two books.

Quote from: Russ on Jan 09, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
Much like DC - they did away with the multi-verse in 1985 (I think) and slowly brought it back in. So much so that what was an "event" became a cliche.

So not for me - I'm hopeful that they can tie it all up with a neat bow. Though, it may mean that (as much as I love these movies) AvP and AvP:R may become the Superman III and IV of the franchise and be handwaved as SM says.

DC's Infinite Crisis storyline in 1985 was a means to actually reboot their own franchises. All of the previous storylines prior to 1985 were simply retconned specifically in the storyline as being reality warped to form a new Earth, namely Earth-2. I am not at all suggesting that if there is an Alien-Predator multiverse that there should be an Infinite Crisis thing going on. No. None of the proposed multiverse actually has to interact with each other. Nor should they be aware of each other's existence. I would suggest actually looking at the Godzilla franchise, the Showa, Heisei and Millenium eiga films are all regarded as separate universes (the Millennium series being a more extreme case with only the Kiryu storyline being the only continuity) but they don't acknowledge one another as they aren't aware of each other.

I don't think that tying all of the films or the licensed material would work too well. Sure, a lot of fans have worked in ways to retcon it all int working but that's all fanon and I wouldn't count that. Unless someone at Fox actually takes the time and effort to do it, I wouldn't count anything unofficial.

As for AvP and AvP-R, well.. Fox hasn't given any word on their status in canon however it should be noted that AvP2010 continued on with their storyline and to a lesser extent-- so did AvP: Evolution though it did so somewhat ambiguously (since the film ties in PREDATORS which apparently has NOTHING to do with AvP). But on that note, ignored films doesn't necessarily mean retconned or even jettisoned from canon. There are a lot of films which have continuities which are ignored by other sequels which happen to be direct sequels to the first film which creates different continuities-- again, look at the Godzilla franchise to see what I mean. Look at Highlander as well.

That maybe the case between AvP, PREDATORS, and Prometheus.

Multiverse is fine since its impossible for it all to (co)exist in the same universe for plenty of obvious reasons.

I think I found the artical about the reboot and canon but to be sure could someone post it?

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 02:16:31 AM
I think I found the artical about the reboot and canon but to be sure could someone post it?

There are numerous threads for it in the literature section. We've already have that covered.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 12, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Multiverse is fine since its impossible for it all to (co)exist in the same universe for plenty of obvious reasons.

I can pretty much concur with this, especially how some events conflict with each other such as Weyland Industries vs Weyland Corp. And then there are different cuts of certain films like Alien 3.

-Rakai'Thwei

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 09, 2014, 08:29:06 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 09, 2014, 08:19:58 AM
If Dark Horse's new comics are any indication, there definitely isn't a multiverse - they've been planning on having their four Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus series reference each other and be part of "a larger story".

But the IO9 Articles did say that they were ignoring the previous publications altogether, and from the small talks that Christopher Sebela and I have had over at Tumblr, they they weren't even taking any of the past 25 years of material into consideration and account for them either. Sebela likens them to different neighborhoods in a big city..

Whatever that means but to me it sounds like a new continuity altogether.

And assuming what SM says regarding the books such as Out of the Shadows.. well, that may be the case. Assuming what he says turns out to be true.

-Rakai'Thwei

I think I red that artical but from my understanding they just want to change the style of the story, no more military stories basically.

Your quote also sounds like what I am saying, the new and old are in the same universe its just the style is going in a diffrent direction.

Its like comparing X-Wing series to the NJO series.

---

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 13, 2014, 02:21:53 AM

I can pretty much concur with this, especially how some events conflict with each other such as Weyland Industries vs Weyland Corp. And then there are different cuts of certain films like Alien 3.

-Rakai'Thwei

Cant say much about the cuts but Weyland Industries and Corp can be explained.  By law they are very diffrent.  Put simply in order for a large Corp to function it must be legally acknowledged by that country it operates in becomeing in a sense a citizen of that country which gives it legal rights and protections.   Industries do nothing like that.

Going by the time line we know they both exist.  We also only know the date and time of the legal acknowledgment of Weyland Corp America and 1 of 2 Weyland Corp UK.  When reg as a corp in the UK your corp will be ether a English, Scott, Welsh corp OR a English Irish Corp.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 02:22:48 AM
I think I red that artical but from my understanding they just want to change the style of the story, no more military stories basically. Your quote also sounds like what I am saying, the new and old are in the same universe its just the style is going in a diffrent direction.

It's more than just going in a different direction, the creative teams have mentioned that they were doing a completely clean slate with the comics. So they are ignoring 25 years of stories that were already told and doing something new in an attempt to link the four franchises together and tell a new story. I don't think that the old EU and this new EU is going to be sharing the same universe, as the old EU incorporates elements from the Alien vs Predator movies such as Weyland Industries and of course the Pyramid idea. And Christopher Sebela did say that he wasn't going to be using the old stories as a spring board, nor was he using the AvP movies for inspiration or considering them part of the story they want to tell. So by and large, the old EU is pretty much being ignored and has little to no connection with the new one based on what the interviews have said.

However just because something is ignored, doesn't necessarily mean it's jettisoned out of canon. They're just likely not sharing the same continuity, though this is all from what I have gathered from the interviews and personal but brief discussions with Sebela.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 02:22:48 AM
Cant say much about the cuts but Weyland Industries and Corp can be explained.  By law they are very diffrent.  Put simply in order for a large Corp to function it must be legally acknowledged by that country it operates in becomeing in a sense a citizen of that country which gives it legal rights and protections.   Industries do nothing like that.

Going by the time line we know they both exist.  We also only know the date and time of the legal acknowledgment of Weyland Corp America and 1 of 2 Weyland Corp UK.  When reg as a corp in the UK your corp will be ether a English, Scott, Welsh corp OR a English Irish Corp.

A lot of people have tried to explain and reconcile the differences between Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp. The thing is with that though, the companies were founded at different time periods and essentially it's supposed to be the same company. Weyland Industries was founded sometime in the 1970s apparently, and Weyland Corp was founded sometime in the 2010s. Different founders, different founding time periods, same company. It doesn't add up, and Ridley Scott intended Prometheus to avoid Predator or Alien vs Predator when he released the Weyland Corp timeline.

Of course... I'm sure there are other people who could explain this better than I can.  :P

Nah I think you nailed it.  :)

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 13, 2014, 03:09:18 AM


It's more than just going in a different direction, the creative teams have mentioned that they were doing a completely clean slate with the comics. So they are ignoring 25 years of stories that were already told and doing something new in an attempt to link the four franchises together and tell a new story. I don't think that the old EU and this new EU is going to be sharing the same universe, as the old EU incorporates elements from the Alien vs Predator movies such as Weyland Industries and of course the Pyramid idea. And Christopher Sebela did say that he wasn't going to be using the old stories as a spring board, nor was he using the AvP movies for inspiration or considering them part of the story they want to tell. So by and large, the old EU is pretty much being ignored and has little to no connection with the new one based on what the interviews have said.

In the artical I red I did not see them say they are ignoring 25 years of work, could you post a linjk to the artical you are talking about.

Quote
A lot of people have tried to explain and reconcile the differences between Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp. The thing is with that though, the companies were founded at different time periods and essentially it's supposed to be the same company. Weyland Industries was founded sometime in the 1970s apparently, and Weyland Corp was founded sometime in the 2010s. Different founders, different founding time periods, same company. It doesn't add up, and Ridley Scott intended Prometheus to avoid Predator or Alien vs Predator when he released the Weyland Corp timeline.

Of course... I'm sure there are other people who could explain this better than I can.  :P

But the thing is you are talking about the date of creation for Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp America.  Both are legally diffrent and going by the time line their is no date of creation for Weyland Industries.  Since AvP 1&2 are complimented by Prometheus its obvious Peter didnt make Weyland Industries.  The only two things we know he made was Weyland Corp America and 1 of 2 Weyland Corp Britian.

Weyland Industries would not just come into being just because Weyland Corp America exists ether that is not how the dynamics work for Industries/Enterprises and Corperations.  One Intresting thing to point out is that the way the dynamics with Industries and Corps works is that the Industry, if it exists, always have adminstrative control over what ever corperations it is associated with, you will never se a corperation in control over a Industry that is just how the dynamics work.


What happend is Peter inherited Weyland Industries and anything it had adminstrative control over and later over the years created Weyland Corp America.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
In the artical I red I did not see them say they are ignoring 25 years of work, could you post a linjk to the artical you are talking about.

Here you go.. and here is a quote from Christopher Sebela in regards to that. Infact the entire creative staff writing team does mention that they are using the movies, and only the movies as their spring board and not so much the old comics.

http://io9.com/exclusive-details-on-the-comic-relaunch-of-alien-preda-1443548904 (http://io9.com/exclusive-details-on-the-comic-relaunch-of-alien-preda-1443548904)

QuoteSebela: I'm just sticking with the solo movies, because I think they build up an interesting mythology of their own that fits in well with the world we're building. I think the AvP movies have a lot of interesting things going on, but they seem to exist in their own little bubble, one that's very far away from ours, and, personally, I want to keep myself as free of all past AvP encounters, to start from a clean slate and build my own take on this mythical face-off.

And having spoken with Mr. Sebela via his Tumblr, they didn't even bring up the old comics in the writer's discussion room or even so much as look at them. So I can safely say that they are ignoring previous publications from twenty five years ago.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
But the thing is you are talking about the date of creation for Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp America.  Both are legally diffrent and going by the time line their is no date of creation for Weyland Industries.  Since AvP 1&2 are complimented by Prometheus its obvious Peter didnt make Weyland Industries.  The only two things we know he made was Weyland Corp America and 1 of 2 Weyland Corp Britian.

Weyland Industries would not just come into being just because Weyland Corp America exists ether that is not how the dynamics work for Industries/Enterprises and Corperations.  One Intresting thing to point out is that the way the dynamics with Industries and Corps works is that the Industry, if it exists, always have adminstrative control over what ever corperations it is associated with, you will never se a corperation in control over a Industry that is just how the dynamics work.

What happend is Peter inherited Weyland Industries and anything it had adminstrative control over and later over the years created Weyland Corp America.

And your proof of this is what? Can you actually provide me canonical evidence from either AvP movie or Prometheus because so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that this has happened and I'm pretty sure that Ridley Scott has made sure that neither connection to Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries (despite the latter name being dropped often in Prometheus) is solidified. It's great that you have some sort of an explanation but it's all fanon and merely speculation. Also, we're not here to debate canon, we're here to discuss if there is an Alien-Predator multiverse that certain events happened differently from the three universes between Predator, Alien and AvP.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 13, 2014, 05:38:42 PM

QuoteSebela: I'm just sticking with the solo movies, because I think they build up an interesting mythology of their own that fits in well with the world we're building. I think the AvP movies have a lot of interesting things going on, but they seem to exist in their own little bubble, one that's very far away from ours, and, personally, I want to keep myself as free of all past AvP encounters, to start from a clean slate and build my own take on this mythical face-off.

Yeah but isnt this guy the one writting the Prometheus stories?  If so all he has to do is nothing that retcons other writters work esp the current AvP writter.

Quote
And having spoken with Mr. Sebela via his Tumblr, they didn't even bring up the old comics in the writer's discussion room or even so much as look at them. So I can safely say that they are ignoring previous publications from twenty five years ago.

if it is ok could you post those convos for us to see?

Quote
And your proof of this is what?

Which thing are you talking about or are talking about everything including how industries work? 

QuoteCan you actually provide me canonical evidence from either AvP movie or Prometheus because so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that this has happened and I'm pretty sure that Ridley Scott has made sure that neither connection to Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries (despite the latter name being dropped often in Prometheus) is solidified. It's great that you have some sort of an explanation but it's all fanon and merely speculation. Also, we're not here to debate canon, we're here to discuss if there is an Alien-Predator multiverse that certain events happened differently from the three universes between Predator, Alien and AvP.

Well just for starters none of the movies where retcon from existance.  We see that Weyland Yutani still doesnt exist by the time of Prometheus.  The big thing though is that one of the head writters for prometheus said they wehere not obligated to stick to detail with any previous Alien movie.  In that regard you could retcon every movie if your hard core enough.

Now my refrence for that is on xenopedia, it was in a talk page about Weyland Industries and Charels being none canon.  You can ask Xenomrph about it he was their.

Also one of the head writers named Jon S. sorry I cant rember his last name, said that AvP is part of the Alien mythology.

Like I said though based on that guys comment we could easily retcon every movie since they werent obligated to stay true to any alien movie.  The biggest issue story wise would not be any avp movie it would be Aliens and Alieand so on and so forth.

Remeber that device that lets David see peoples thoughts and dreams.  Well its existance ruins Aliens because if it existed law enforcement would change everyone would be tried using that device to see if they are guilty.  When used on Riply they would have seen she did not lie about the ship or the alien.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 08:18:51 PM
Yeah but isnt this guy the one writting the Prometheus stories?  If so all he has to do is nothing that retcons other writters work esp the current AvP writter.

Actually Christopher Sebela is writing the AvP comics. So considering that he's said that.. Yeah, there you go! He's pretty much said that he was ignoring 25 years of previously published material, and since Dark Horse had tied the previous Alien and Predator comics with each other in the last twenty five years.. Yeah, it's pretty much ignored.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 08:18:51 PM
if it is ok could you post those convos for us to see?

Look in the Literature section of the forum and look in the Reboot thread. You'll find them there.  :)

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 08:18:51 PM
Which thing are you talking about or are talking about everything including how industries work? 

I want proof from Fox, Ridley Scott, Damon Lindelof, Jon Spaights-- ANYONE that's worked on Prometheus who says that Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp are the same company despite different founders and different times of founding.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 13, 2014, 08:18:51 PM
Well just for starters none of the movies where retcon from existance.  We see that Weyland Yutani still doesnt exist by the time of Prometheus.  The big thing though is that one of the head writters for prometheus said they wehere not obligated to stick to detail with any previous Alien movie.  In that regard you could retcon every movie if your hard core enough.

Now my refrence for that is on xenopedia, it was in a talk page about Weyland Industries and Charels being none canon.  You can ask Xenomrph about it he was their.

Also one of the head writers named Jon S. sorry I cant rember his last name, said that AvP is part of the Alien mythology.

While I can concede that none of the movies were jettisoned from canon, it is very clear that some movies do not mesh very well with others. You have different timelines/universes. That would seem to be the case with PREDATORS, AvP and Prometheus. While it can be debated that PREDATORS can be reconciled with Predator 2, AvP and AvP-R-- Robert Rodriguez has said that the movie ignores Predator 2 to AvP-R. But the confusion regarding that movie seems to be mostly Antal's fault since his statement didn't corroborate with Rodriguez. As for Prometheus, it was an indirect Alien prequel and Ridley Scott clearly doesn't care for Predator AvP-- so why should he adhere to the previously established movies when he was adamant on doing something new on his own?

Yeah, Xenopedia is not exactly the best source of information on all things Alien-Predator. If anything, it's perhaps one of the most misinformed Wikias out there. The information on the site also seems to hint some sort of bias on some articles. I really wouldn't use Xenopedia for anything Alien-Predator related. I could give you better sites. Xenopedia has got zero credibility in my book.

Jon Spaights acknowledges the AvP movies? What? Where is this statement?

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 13, 2014, 08:41:11 PM
Actually Christopher Sebela is writing the AvP comics. So considering that he's said that.. Yeah, there you go! He's pretty much said that he was ignoring 25 years of previously published material, and since Dark Horse had tied the previous Alien and Predator comics with each other in the last twenty five years.. Yeah, it's pretty much ignored.

But he is talking about the movies as a refrence in what I red not the written matterial.

Quote
I want proof from Fox, Ridley Scott, Damon Lindelof, Jon Spaights-- ANYONE that's worked on Prometheus who says that Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp are the same company despite different founders and different times of founding.

It cant, it is legally impossible for any Industry/Bussines/Enterprise to be a corp.  I kinda went through this part with you on the time line they only show the legal creation of Weyland Corp America and 1 of 2 Weyland Corp UK.  It shows that Weyland Industries existed but a date of creation was not shown for it.  So nothing is their to say that is not Charels Industry he created.  We also know that in the future WY Industries is around so it is in control of WY Corp United States, WY Corp China WY Corp Mars and so on.

We also know from the creators of ACM that Fox is flexable with canon.  I think this is the major hang up everyone has, that canon must be 100% strick or it is noncanon.  Just as an example look at the XMen series of movies the newest ones have some serious canon issues but every movie is still canon.  Its better to think of all these movies as a dark fairy tail fair tails are flexable with their works.

Quote
While I can concede that none of the movies were jettisoned from canon, it is very clear that some movies do not mesh very well with others. You have different timelines/universes. That would seem to be the case with PREDATORS, AvP and Prometheus. While it can be debated that PREDATORS can be reconciled with Predator 2, AvP and AvP-R-- Robert Rodriguez has said that the movie ignores Predator 2 to AvP-R. But the confusion regarding that movie seems to be mostly Antal's fault since his statement didn't corroborate with Rodriguez. As for Prometheus, it was an indirect Alien prequel and Ridley Scott clearly doesn't care for Predator AvP-- so why should he adhere to the previously established movies when he was adamant on doing something new on his own?

Just to be clear he was talking about Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Res, AvP, and AvP:R NOT Just the AvP movies.  They didnt feel obligated to follow any of those movies truthfully. 

Now knowing that he wanted to do something new and didnt want to be held back by any alien movie why should this movies events be taken as a sign that any AvP is not canon?  That sounds selective to me that they can come up with things on how AvP is not canon BUT They turn the other way when something heavily contradicts Alien or Aliens.  I my self havent seen anything that conflicts with the AvPs, I do unfortunatlly see major conflicts of canon involving Alien and Aliens



A while back I saw an artical that says that Ridley did finale see AvP 1 and greatly enjoyed it esp the bits about ancient aliens.

Quote
Jon Spaights acknowledges the AvP movies? What? Where is this statement?

It was in the special features on the 3D blu-ray set.  He also said he wasnt sure which direction to take this movie after the AvPs and Res had established.

I only watched Furious Gods again the other day and don't recall him saying anything in relation to AvP and Resurrection.

QuoteIt cant, it is legally impossible for any Industry/Bussines/Enterprise to be a corp.

What is this based on?

Here's an enterprise corporation (http://www.mprec.org.au/)
Here's an industry corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC_Motor)

News Corp is a "business" is it not?

And if this is to be believed (http://thelawdictionary.org/enterprise/) then an "enterprise" is a "corporation, business, firm, company, or registered group with a designated purpose."

The poll votes are surprising, to me anyway.. I was expecting most people to say "No, there shouldn't be a Multiverse" but totaling up to the "Yes, there should be a Multiverse" and "There already is a Multiverse", it seems that some folks are actually accepting of the idea of a multiverse, or accepting that there already is one in effect. So far, only three out of fourteen have said No.

Sure the numbers are pretty low for a total but more and more, I'm getting convinced there is a multiverse at work for Alien-Predator. And with the comics being announced that they are a new continuity, only seems to suggest that this idea has some weight to it or rather some merit.

Interesting..

Gee, I wonder who those three are...

Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2014, 04:49:01 AM

I only watched Furious Gods again the other day and don't recall him saying anything in relation to AvP and Resurrection.

Then that was not the movie I watched.  Their was two or three vids on the 3d blu-ray.

QuoteWhat is this based on?

The actul legal dynamics on of all the mentioned things we are talking about.

Here's an enterprise corporation (http://www.mprec.org.au/)

The above is just a name.

Here's an industry corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC_Motor)

This is the same deal as the link above.  It even says at the begining after the name what SAIC motors is and it is not a industry, its a corp.

News Corp is a "business" is it not?

Dont know never looked into them Corp could just be a name not a tittle.

[/quote]And if this is to be believed (http://thelawdictionary.org/enterprise/) then an "enterprise" is a "corporation, business, firm, company, or registered group with a designated purpose."
[/quote]

It has been awhile since I looked into Enterprises but I am pretty sure this artical is incorrect.  See you can pretty much tell what one of these things does by its designation.  Industries at its core is about resources mostly natural.  These corps you have listed can be named anything even put the name Industry in their name, heck I could incorperate my corp with the French gov and have it named "The Enterprising Industry for Corperation Business" in the end of the day it is still only a corperation because that is the only legal recognition it has as a entity.

---

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 14, 2014, 05:05:51 AM
The poll votes are surprising, to me anyway.. I was expecting most people to say "No, there shouldn't be a Multiverse" but totaling up to the "Yes, there should be a Multiverse" and "There already is a Multiverse", it seems that some folks are actually accepting of the idea of a multiverse, or accepting that there already is one in effect. So far, only three out of fourteen have said No.

Sure the numbers are pretty low for a total but more and more, I'm getting convinced there is a multiverse at work for Alien-Predator. And with the comics being announced that they are a new continuity, only seems to suggest that this idea has some weight to it or rather some merit.

Interesting..

Well I red your conversation and I would have to say their isnt a new continunity.  They said basically the stuff still exists they are focusing on other things.  A good example of this is X-WIng and NJO.  They only have anything to do with each other by being in the same universe other than that X-Wing takes place at a diffrent time and is about elite squadron dogfighting.  NJO is nothing like that.

Now I did mark that their is a multiverse already because the Aliens have been transported to other universes.  Terminator, Marvel, DC, Top Cow, Star Wars...  To most these storys they are canon as well to the multiverse.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 14, 2014, 03:34:19 PM
Well I red your conversation and I would have to say their isnt a new continunity.  They said basically the stuff still exists they are focusing on other things.  A good example of this is X-WIng and NJO.  They only have anything to do with each other by being in the same universe other than that X-Wing takes place at a diffrent time and is about elite squadron dogfighting.  NJO is nothing like that.

Now I did mark that their is a multiverse already because the Aliens have been transported to other universes.  Terminator, Marvel, DC, Top Cow, Star Wars...  To most these storys they are canon as well to the multiverse.

Actually, it is a new continuity altogether. Dark Horse Editor Scott Allie has pretty much confirmed this over at the recent IO9 Article.

http://io9.com/see-dark-horses-first-alien-predator-avp-and-prometh-1500505424 (http://io9.com/see-dark-horses-first-alien-predator-avp-and-prometh-1500505424)

QuoteRob Bricken: How "hard" is the reboot? Has all previous continuity been erased?

Scott Allie: It is hard. When more is revealed about the nature of this project, you'll see that this isn't really a reboot. It's a complex story with a lot of moving parts. It looks back at Prometheus, for sure, and it looks at the other movies that got these stories started, but it's not heavy with continuity. One challenge with these movies, with doing spinoffs, is that they don't leave you a lot of living characters running around for sequels, or for comics. So we've lined up a team that we think can introduce a lot of new characters into the world that'll make great comic book characters. Not superheroes, of course, but the kind of iconic characters that people follow in modern comics outside of the superhero genre. We think Ridley Scott and James Cameron and everyone else really set us up to be able to do that well.

Okay, so it is a hard reboot which pretty much ignores the previous continuity in the old expanded universe. Hence the term hard reboot, but they're using the films as a spring board. Now that's a pretty straight forward answer to what Rob Bricken has asked but I don't think Bricken is aware that the old comics aren't being erased out of canon. It's pretty much what SM said, they're tacitly being put into a different universe now. Unless Fox comes out and declares the old comics non-canon, we pretty much have two different comic continuities here.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 14, 2014, 03:34:19 PM
Now I did mark that their is a multiverse already because the Aliens have been transported to other universes.  Terminator, Marvel, DC, Top Cow, Star Wars...  To most these storys they are canon as well to the multiverse.

General rule of thumb is that crossovers are not considered canon, mostly for legal reasons though there are two exceptions. The Judge Dredd crossovers with Alien and Predator are considered canon by Rebellion 2000AD, though they seldom are referenced in Judge Dredd canon. This also applies to Batman as well. Also, WILDCATS/Aliens is considered canon as well since that storyline was used to explain how the Stormwatch team was killed and what ushered in the assembly of the Authority team. However the storyline was retconned when the Wildstorm and DC Universes were merged in a Crisis incident, and the Stormwatch team was resurrected when the DC Universe was reshaped when reality was reformed.

But as far as Alien-Predator goes, most crossovers if not all of them are not considered canon. Not even the aforementioned crossovers I mentioned above because Fox doesn't deem them so for legal reasons, and the Alien-Predator universe doesn't even mention them whatsoever.

But let's try to avoid a canon debate Rinzler. The idea of this thread is to see if fans will be accepting the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse in order to explain how some films fit into certain timelines. After all, different universes could have similarities but also vast differences as well. According to the votes, despite the total being few in number, eleven out of fourteen fans believe there is a multiverse at work or that there should be one at work.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 14, 2014, 05:51:53 PM
Actually, it is a new continuity altogether. Dark Horse Editor Scott Allie has pretty much confirmed this over at the recent IO9 Article.

http://io9.com/see-dark-horses-first-alien-predator-avp-and-prometh-1500505424 (http://io9.com/see-dark-horses-first-alien-predator-avp-and-prometh-1500505424)

QuoteRob Bricken: How "hard" is the reboot? Has all previous continuity been erased?

Scott Allie: It is hard. When more is revealed about the nature of this project, you'll see that this isn't really a reboot. It's a complex story with a lot of moving parts. It looks back at Prometheus, for sure, and it looks at the other movies that got these stories started, but it's not heavy with continuity. One challenge with these movies, with doing spinoffs, is that they don't leave you a lot of living characters running around for sequels, or for comics. So we've lined up a team that we think can introduce a lot of new characters into the world that'll make great comic book characters. Not superheroes, of course, but the kind of iconic characters that people follow in modern comics outside of the superhero genre. We think Ridley Scott and James Cameron and everyone else really set us up to be able to do that well.

Okay, so it is a hard reboot which pretty much ignores the previous continuity in the old expanded universe. Hence the term hard reboot, but they're using the films as a spring board. Now that's a pretty straight forward answer to what Rob Bricken has asked but I don't think Bricken is aware that the old comics aren't being erased out of canon. It's pretty much what SM said, they're tacitly being put into a different universe now. Unless Fox comes out and declares the old comics non-canon, we pretty much have two different comic continuities here.

He didn't say they are ignoring past material, if anything they are going out of their way to not contradict it, based on his comments after the one you posted.

Quote
General rule of thumb is that crossovers are not considered canon, mostly for legal reasons though there are two exceptions. The Judge Dredd crossovers with Alien and Predator are considered canon by Rebellion 2000AD, though they seldom are referenced in Judge Dredd canon. This also applies to Batman as well. Also, WILDCATS/Aliens is considered canon as well since that storyline was used to explain how the Stormwatch team was killed and what ushered in the assembly of the Authority team. However the storyline was retconned when the Wildstorm and DC Universes were merged in a Crisis incident, and the Stormwatch team was resurrected when the DC Universe was reshaped when reality was reformed.

They are all canon though to the mulitverse.   Not one entity that owns any of these properties can say their is not one alternate reality/universe/dimension or one parallel reality/universe/dimension that has not had the events seen red or played from these crossovers.  To do so is to deny infinity.  At best all they can do is deny it happened in their primary universe.

QuoteBut as far as Alien-Predator goes, most crossovers if not all of them are not considered canon. Not even the aforementioned crossovers I mentioned above because Fox doesn't deem them so for legal reasons, and the Alien-Predator universe doesn't even mention them whatsoever.

They can say that all they like but infinity doesnt stop for legal reasons.  Even so for sure dc and star wars has had the aliens in their primary universes predators also in dc.

QuoteBut let's try to avoid a canon debate Rinzler. The idea of this thread is to see if fans will be accepting the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse in order to explain how some films fit into certain timelines. After all, different universes could have similarities but also vast differences as well. According to the votes, despite the total being few in number, eleven out of fourteen fans believe there is a multiverse at work or that there should be one at work.

You keep bring up how things are not canon and then dont want me to respond to those posts?  Fine then...


SM

I watched the documentry agian and it is in the video you mentioned.  Its 5-10 min into the doc.  He includes all 6 films into the mythology.   He also said this about writing Promethues "The mythology is so dence he doesn't know where to begin."

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 14, 2014, 09:01:42 PM
He didn't say they are ignoring past material, if anything they are going out of their way to not contradict it, based on his comments after the one you posted.

Considering that the creative teams have said that they were ignoring the previous material which was published some twenty five years ago, and with the editor in chief corroborating with their statements-- seems to suggest that they are ignoring the previous storylines and continuity from the old EU comics. They're not contradicting it but they're not linking them either.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 14, 2014, 09:01:42 PM
They are all canon though to the mulitverse.   Not one entity that owns any of these properties can say their is not one alternate reality/universe/dimension or one parallel reality/universe/dimension that has not had the events seen red or played from these crossovers.  To do so is to deny infinity.  At best all they can do is deny it happened in their primary universe. 

I think that you are taking this a little bit too literally. The idea of this thread is to see once again, how fans would be willing to accept a multiverse to make sense of things because even some of the movies don't fit in with each other, and if you take in words from the writers, directors and producers-- sort of clue you in on where certain movies fit and how they fit in. However a lot of fans don't take into account from what sources say and insist that they all mesh together when they really don't.

In the case of crossovers, again because of legal reasons-- they aren't considered canon. But I already mentioned the cases with DC and Judge Dredd. You would be right that Predators and Aliens do exist in the realm of Judge Dredd, and maybe the Wildstorm universe as well-- those are canon in those respective universe but most fans don't accept them par of the Alien-Predator lore, for well enough reasons as it is.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 14, 2014, 09:01:42 PM
You keep bring up how things are not canon and then dont want me to respond to those posts?  Fine then...

I was only saying how crossovers aren't canon and aren't recognized in the lore.

This topic is really meant to discuss if there is a multiverse in the Alien-Predator franchise and see if it could fit into the respective lore of the franchises and perhaps make sense of it. Godzilla fans have done this and it's actually worked out very well for them, so why not for Alien-Predator fans? Transformers fans also have issues with continuity as well considering how many G1 continuities there are but they make do with a multiverse on their own despite Hasbro not saying such. Why not for Alien-Predator fans?

That's the point of this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's something of a multi-verse in the original trilogy of AvP novels...

Hunter's Planet and War have two different versions of the "Shorty" character and they die in different ways 

QuoteIt has been awhile since I looked into Enterprises but I am pretty sure this artical is incorrect. 

Please provide something to disprove it.

QuoteI watched the documentry agian and it is in the video you mentioned.  Its 5-10 min into the doc.  He includes all 6 films into the mythology.   He also said this about writing Promethues "The mythology is so dence he doesn't know where to begin."

Context.

He's talking about trying to figure out where to start before writing anything.  Lindelof said much later in the process that Ridley had no interest in paying attention to AvP, which is borne out in the final film.

Quote from: happypred on Jan 15, 2014, 03:06:51 AM
There's something of a multi-verse in the original trilogy of AvP novels...

Hunter's Planet and War have two different versions of the "Shorty" character and they die in different ways

That is something also to consider as well, we have two different stories involving the antagonistic relationship between Machiko and Shorty. When I first read War and Hunter's Planet, I thought that Hunter's Planet was a sequel to War but then when I saw that it was Shorty, I had questioned how he had survived his death but then just shook my head and just read on.

I would want to say that this may leave some more weight to the idea that there might be an Alien-Predator multiverse but I could be wrong in that sense. I don't know.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 14, 2014, 10:42:23 PM


Considering that the creative teams have said that they were ignoring the previous material which was published some twenty five years ago, and with the editor in chief corroborating with their statements-- seems to suggest that they are ignoring the previous storylines and continuity from the old EU comics. They're not contradicting it but they're not linking them either.

But now you are ignoring their other statment that they are not gitting red of the past material.  I should point out this is materail that is considred canon to the AvP movies esp the blu-ray versions which has a vast database that has alot of EU in it.  Then their is ACM which is movie level canon the devs conisidred all that stuff taking place in the same universe.  If it was noncanon it couldnt
take place in that universe.  If it was in adiffrent universe then it could still not be in the same universe like the devs said it was for ACM.

Quote
I think that you are taking this a little bit too literally. The idea of this thread is to see once again, how fans would be willing to accept a multiverse to make sense of things because even some of the movies don't fit in with each other, and if you take in words from the writers, directors and producers-- sort of clue you in on where certain movies fit and how they fit in. However a lot of fans don't take into account from what sources say and insist that they all mesh together when they really don't.

Your not taking the mechanics for multiverses serious enough if you think I have gone to far.

QuoteIn the case of crossovers, again because of legal reasons-- they aren't considered canon. But I already mentioned the cases with DC and Judge Dredd. You would be right that Predators and Aliens do exist in the realm of Judge Dredd, and maybe the Wildstorm universe as well-- those are canon in those respective universe but most fans don't accept them par of the Alien-Predator lore, for well enough reasons as it is.

Copywrite laws can not dictate infinity and its probabilities.  The alien and predator exist in many universes that are shared with other works that do not exist in the primary universe of the A P AvP Pro universe.  Besides Star Wars and DC which you keep ignoring.  Dresden Files is one.  Just because I just thought of it their are universes that have the Aliens mixed with Cybertronians, theirs one with Captian Power, theirs one with mixed withe Defiance universe, SoulCalibur, Lord of the Rings, Wild Boys book of the dead.  Its that simple.

Quote
I was only saying how crossovers aren't canon and aren't recognized in the lore.

To the primary universes they are not most the time.  The primary universes that have had them crossover and counted as canon have been what I mentioned above, SW, DC, Dresden Files, and some you mentioned.

QuoteThis topic is really meant to discuss if there is a multiverse in the Alien-Predator franchise and see if it could fit into the respective lore of the franchises and perhaps make sense of it. Godzilla fans have done this and it's actually worked out very well for them, so why not for Alien-Predator fans? Transformers fans also have issues with continuity as well considering how many G1 continuities there are but they make do with a multiverse on their own despite Hasbro not saying such. Why not for Alien-Predator fans?

That's the point of this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

Their is no canon issues with Godzilla and Transformers.  Everything has been outlined without the help of fans.  If I am not burned out on this website you can talk about that here or email my profile.

---

Quote from: SM on Jan 15, 2014, 03:27:50 AM

Please provide something to disprove it.

By this point I really don't have to, the meat of this was about Industries vs Corperations not Enterprises.  Secondly you cant post links using an xbox.



Just a note though look up the diffrence between a Corperation and a Enterprise on ehow.  Its watered down but clear enough that it gets the general idear.

Quote

Context.

He's talking about trying to figure out where to start before writing anything.  Lindelof said much later in the process that Ridley had no interest in paying attention to AvP, which is borne out in the final film.

That doesnt change the fact that he said they are part of the alien mythology and that when they wrote Prometheus they didnt feel obligated to stay true to any of the films Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Res, AvP, and AvP:R. 

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 15, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
But now you are ignoring their other statment that they are not gitting red of the past material.  I should point out this is materail that is considred canon to the AvP movies esp the blu-ray versions which has a vast database that has alot of EU in it.  Then their is ACM which is movie level canon the devs conisidred all that stuff taking place in the same universe.  If it was noncanon it couldnt
take place in that universe.  If it was in adiffrent universe then it could still not be in the same universe like the devs said it was for ACM.

I am not ignoring their statement in saying that they are not getting rid of the past material. If anything that's what I have been trying to say but the new comics are a completely new continuity which doesn't follow after the old one. That is what I am saying. They're separate from each other but they're both canon. That's the idea of the whole multiverse theory/idea. Two universes sharing similar histories in some spots but differences in others.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 15, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
Your not taking the mechanics for multiverses serious enough if you think I have gone to far.

Copywrite laws can not dictate infinity and its probabilities.  The alien and predator exist in many universes that are shared with other works that do not exist in the primary universe of the A P AvP Pro universe.  Besides Star Wars and DC which you keep ignoring.  Dresden Files is one.  Just because I just thought of it their are universes that have the Aliens mixed with Cybertronians, theirs one with Captian Power, theirs one with mixed withe Defiance universe, SoulCalibur, Lord of the Rings, Wild Boys book of the dead.  Its that simple.

In the metaphysical sense, you would be right and you are. But we're talking about this whole idea strictly adhering to the Alien-Predator franchises in order to better make sense of things. I have already acknowledged Aliens and Predators existing in the realm of Judge Dredd since those crossovers are considered canon in the Dredd franchise. As for DC, I didn't ignore it-- I brought it up when I mentioned WILDCats/Aliens which strangely enough is considered canon in DC/Wildstorm.  But as for Aliens and Predators existing in Dresden Files, Captain Power, Transformers, Lord of the Rings.. and one of my favorites, Soul Calibur... Now you're sort of getting ridiculous. I've never seen Predators or Aliens in ANY Soul Calibur media. Try to stay out of the realm of fanon.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Jan 15, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
Their is no canon issues with Godzilla and Transformers.  Everything has been outlined without the help of fans.  If I am not burned out on this website you can talk about that here or email my profile.

The point of comparing Alien-Predator to Godzilla and Transformers is that even the primary sources, the movies don't seem to mesh well with each other. Namely AvP and Prometheus.. PREDATORS can be debated since according to Rodriguez, it ignores Predator 2 to AvP-R, but Antal's statement is that he considers it the third movie. The point of my statement was that even some of the movies follow a different continuity from each other, similar to how the Showa, Heisei and Millenium Godzilla films are direct sequels to the 1954 original-- fans perceive them as different universes. In the case of AvP, it's a sequel to Predator and Predator 2, and a prequel to Alien-- where as PREDATORS is a direct sequel to the original Predator, and Prometheus is an indirect prequel to Alien. See what I'm getting at? That's the whole idea of this thread is to see if fans perceive some movie continuity as different universes or so.

QuoteBy this point I really don't have to, the meat of this was about Industries vs Corperations not Enterprises.

And by this point I'm thinking you can't actually prove anything.  Since you've muddied the argument by talking about 'enterprises' apropos of nothing.

QuoteThat doesnt change the fact that he said they are part of the alien mythology and that when they wrote Prometheus they didnt feel obligated to stay true to any of the films Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Res, AvP, and AvP:R. 

And the guy actually in charge of the film only refers to four Alien films in the same documentary - not six.

There should be an Alien 3 multiverse if you ask me.  We have:

1. The theatrical version
2. The version where the alien is captured and the prisoners find the queen facehugger (same as the comic version)
3. Alien 3 for Game Boy where Ripley is not infected, single-handedly wipes out an alien colony and escapes the planet
4. Alien 3 for Genesis/NES/C64/Game Gear where she battles a queen-less hive apparently ruled by an elite breed of alien warriors, and walks off into the sunset saying "It is done" without being infected
5. Alien 3 for SNES where she spends here time wiping out countless aliens, doing maintenance on the prison facilities, and then killing herself as she does in the movie
6. Alien 3 The Gun, where she takes on robots and a queen-less colony run by the alien from the movie, and then is captured by the Company
7. Alien Trilogy (I'm including it since I features the prison) where she wipes out three hives and escapes the planet right before it blows up

8. The comic version which differs from the Assembly Cut.
9. The Workprint which differs again.

(And Ripley wasn't in Alien3 - The Gun).

But I reckon that's plenty multi.  :)

Quote from: SM on Jan 16, 2014, 01:08:28 AM
8. The comic version which differs from the Assembly Cut.
9. The Workprint which differs again.

(And Ripley wasn't in Alien3 - The Gun).

But I reckon that's plenty multi.  :)

Who was in that game?  I forgot.

Generic marine dude who likes to say "LET'S GO!!"

I would count the Theatrical Cut, Assembly Cut, and the comic as parallel versions of Alien 3-- each one having similar but different events playing out but all of them legit as they might be alternate universes. Considering that the games have a different storyline, they might count as well considering the fact there were vast differences as well. Of course, I haven't really so much as played Alien 3: The Gun, so I can't say anything regarding the storyline, if it had one.. What was the storyline of The Gun anyway?

Sequel to Alien3 where you battle an Alien horde on the Sulaco, then another Alien horder on Fiorina.  And you shoot robots and other stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loihbYASyok#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loihbYASyok#ws)

Awesome Engrish in there.  ;D

I always found it interesting that the Company soldiers do not do anything to help Bishop where you're fighting him, but only step in after he's dead.

Unless, that was the Company's plan all along...

I wonder how tedious it might be to outline the Alien-Predator multiverse. A lot of the media of the franchise seems to go off in various directions, the films included as well.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 15, 2014, 03:40:50 AMThat is something also to consider as well, we have two different stories involving the antagonistic relationship between Machiko and Shorty. When I first read War and Hunter's Planet, I thought that Hunter's Planet was a sequel to War but then when I saw that it was Shorty, I had questioned how he had survived his death but then just shook my head and just read on.

Hunter's Planet was published earlier. It seems that Steve's daughter (who wrote War) decided she didn't like Hunter's Planet and decided to do her own alternate sequel disregarding the events of Hunter's Planet. War is almost like a retcon. 

War was an adaptation of a comic, it wasn't her decision to retcon it.

Quote from: happypred on Jan 17, 2014, 07:18:28 AM
Hunter's Planet was published earlier. It seems that Steve's daughter (who wrote War) decided she didn't like Hunter's Planet and decided to do her own alternate sequel disregarding the events of Hunter's Planet. War is almost like a retcon.

I read Hunter's Planet around when I was.. fourteen I believe, and it wasn't until years later that I found out that it was published before War. So it only made sense that they had written a sequel novel at the time when the comic sequel, which was of course War, was being written at the time. Thing is with novel adaptations of the comics, they were more or less interchangeable as they were essentially the same story. Just one format had more detail and development than the other.

So after I had learned that Hunter's Planet was published before War, and not a sequel to to War-- I discarded that from canon. But now that we have two EU continuities and multiple, if not confusing film continuities as well, and with the idea of this thread asking fans if there is an Alien-Predator multiverse (based on comments and votes-- apparently there is, at least unofficially), would it be possible for Hunter's Planet to fit in somewhere in said multiverse? Perhaps so.

17 votes on an internet forum is hardly a wide consensus (and I'll admit, one of the votes for "there is a multiverse" is mine, because I mis-read the poll when I voted and picked the wrong choice :P)

We don't know that we have multiple EU continuities, because the new comics and novels and games and stuff aren't out yet. It's worth pointing out that Dark Horse Press said they were "discarding" the old EU when they published the more recent Alien and Predator novels, but in the end they didn't contradict any of the old EU (and two of the books actually outright referenced the old EU anyway).

To quote Max Payne, "Time moves forward; nothing changes". The new comics and novels and whatever will come out, and I'm going to bank that it's not going to contradict anything and could easily fit with what we've already got - just like the authors have said it would. The EU not cross-referencing itself terribly heavily has been par for the course for decades - the vast majority of Alien and Predator (and even AvP) stories out there have been largely standalone anyway.

I voted that a multiverse already exists, since so many of the projects, both old and upcoming, go in their own directions.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 17, 2014, 01:42:32 PM
The new comics and novels and whatever will come out, and I'm going to bank that it's not going to contradict anything and could easily fit with what we've already got - just like the authors have said it would. The EU not cross-referencing itself terribly heavily has been par for the course for decades - the vast majority of Alien and Predator (and even AvP) stories out there have been largely standalone anyway.

My thoughts exactly. As far as the new comics are concerned, if they're mostly set in the immediate aftermath of Prometheus (2090s-ish), I'm sure our industrious canon keepers won't have any trouble getting them to fit with the old stuff. Heck, I've even seen people keep Prometheus and Aliens Apocalypse: Destroying Angels in continuity by saying that Keitel got his assumptions wrong and never bothered to notice that the Jockey was a being in a suit (not that I agree with those fixes, it's just to show that continuity is pretty malleable).

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 17, 2014, 10:32:50 PM
My thoughts exactly. As far as the new comics are concerned, if they're mostly set in the immediate aftermath of Prometheus (2090s-ish), I'm sure our industrious canon keepers won't have any trouble getting them to fit with the old stuff. Heck, I've even seen people keep Prometheus and Aliens Apocalypse: Destroying Angels in continuity by saying that Keitel got his assumptions wrong and never bothered to notice that the Jockey was a being in a suit (not that I agree with those fixes, it's just to show that continuity is pretty malleable).

I consider myself a canon keeper, but I operate things very differently than how Xenomrph and PredXeno do as I don't believe everything follows in a cohesive timeline, and some stories do go off in their own direction than follow what was established. Also, regarding some of the films, I believe it's something very similar to the Highlander franchise or the Godzilla franchise-- some of the films just don't follow some of the others, despite what a lot of people say. I also tend to follow the Word of God trope, as Fox clearly doesn't really say anything in regards to the status of certain projects-- these would include words from producers, directors, writers, as well as cast and crew to a certain extent. For me it just helps things become a bit more organized.

As for as the new comics are concerned, I personally don't think that they will fit into the old. Destroying Angels and Prometheus don't clearly go together and while fans can make up their own retcons.. well, those are fan retcons and I consider that to be fanon. But then again.. the idea of the multiverse is just as unofficial, isn't it?

Exactly, fans can have it any way they want it.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 12:28:33 AM
Exactly, fans can have it any way they want it.

This is something which I have been contemplating on tackling. Because the only other franchise which has a similar issue in regards to canon and continuity is of course, the Highlander franchise but somehow.. they managed to make it work quite well. To a lesser extent, so has the Godzilla franchise has similar but slightly different situation yet the fans have outlined everything to make it very cohesive despite silence from Toho, I believe. So.. why can't the same be said about Alien-Predator?

I know that timelines have been tackled numerous times, but no one can really seem to agree on them. I've seen timelines that omit Alien sources, Predator sources, Alien vs Predator sources, and even Prometheus. The idea had come to me that a multiverse would be something which might explain why so many things are still canon but don't really seem to add up cohesively. I mean to me, the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse just made it seem easier to understand.. at least in thought anyway.

The timelines I've worked on have been all-inclusive. :)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 01:30:45 AM
The timelines I've worked on have been all-inclusive. :)

Because that's what you choose to believe.

..Kudos if you get that. :D

If people think thy can make it all fit in one single timeline, then more power to them. A lot of stuff can fit, but trying to get everything just seems like a fool's errand. I'm interested to see what that chronology book coming out next year has to offer, though.

One person's "fool's errand" is another person's "fun challenge". :)

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 02:07:35 AM
If people think thy can make it all fit in one single timeline, then more power to them. A lot of stuff can fit, but trying to get everything just seems like a fool's errand. I'm interested to see what that chronology book coming out next year has to offer, though.

Which is why I had proposed the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse, and see how fans would react to that. I was expecting to downright say that there shouldn't be a multiverse and leave it at that but the responses have actually surprised me. While the tallied total is hardly at all a consensus from the fans, the fact that more people have said that there is one already actually surprised me.

As for making everything seem like a fools errand to make it fit.. Well, saying it's a fool's errand is perhaps a bit harsh but I agree with it. A lot of things can fit, and a lot things don't fit. For me, I take word from producers, writers, and directors for the films and for EU material, always the individual writer. For me the Word of God trope counts as canon and provides factual evidence. For example, I believe that PREDATORS is not at all in the same timeline as Predator 2 to AvP-R since Rodriguez said so, however I will acknowledge that others who say follows after Predator 2 have an argument since Antal mentioned a statement regarding so-- but I'll fight you on that. In the case of Prometheus, similar thing. But then there are other things outside of the movies such as the Hish mythos, Capcom's AvP Arcade, and of course.. the Kenner Aliens/AvP comic. I don't believe that all happens in a single timeline.

To me the idea of a multiverse seems much, much easier and it would be nice if Fox addressed something regarding that. But that will likely never, ever happen.

As for the If It Bleeds book... I think I'll pass on that one.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 18, 2014, 02:19:44 AM
I don't believe that all happens in a single timeline.

I agree completely. Didn't mean to sound harsh with "fool's errand," should have said "seems to me to be nearly impossible, but others can have fun trying." You and I agree on the multiverse being the best solution, because one single timeline encompassing everything just doesn't seem, to me at this point, feasible, even if I have tried my hand at compiling a few different A/v/P timelines into one mega-continuity in the past. I guess my initial point when I commented a few hours ago is that Dark Horse can call the new stuff a hard reboot, but that won't, and shouldn't, stop people from finding ways to insert it into the old timeline, if they so choose. And I wish them the best of luck, even if that's not an interpretation I'll subscribe to! For example, Godzilla 2000 is a separate continuity from the Heisei films, but I know quite a few people who have headcanoned it into working as the story of a post-Destroyah Godzilla Jr. :)

QuoteFor me the Word of God trope counts as canon and provides factual evidence.

I definitely strongly disagree with that one.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 03:12:32 AM
I definitely strongly disagree with that one.

I know you do. You've mentioned it before.

I am actually curious on this.. How would you work in Capcom's AvP and the Operation Aliens comics?

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 02:27:02 AM
You and I agree on the multiverse being the best solution, because one single timeline encompassing everything just doesn't seem, to me at this point, feasible, even if I have tried my hand at compiling a few different A/v/P timelines into one mega-continuity in the past.

I actually have issues when people try and work everything into a mega-continuity because it just doesn't work. It's why I actively avoid trying to use Xenopedia's timeline because if one actually looks around and does some research.. it doesn't really work in my opinion and I'm sure there are others who have the same sentiment. I mean the other day I tried to create a timeline and realized how daunting and tedious it is, especially trying to work in the new comics and everything as divergent timelines.

Capcom's AvP is easy, it takes place sometime after the infestation of Earth and its reclamation in The Female War, but before the Aliens have been completely exterminated from the planet.

With the Operation Aliens comics, do you mean the ones that came with the Kenner toys? There's a few ways you can look at them. Perhaps they're meant to be taken literally, and the characters are androids (perhaps with false memories), which would explain characterization discrepancies, the fact that they can constantly take on dozens of Aliens and never get injured, and that they never get facehugged or anything like that.
I prefer the approach that it's in-universe propaganda intended for children (it helps that this is what they are in real-life, too :P). This isn't even unprecedented - 'Cyberantics' is written as a literal in-universe children's book, and the USCM Tech Manual is also written as an in-universe document.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 18, 2014, 03:26:29 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 03:12:32 AM
I definitely strongly disagree with that one.

I know you do. You've mentioned it before.

I am actually curious on this.. How would you work in Capcom's AvP and the Operation Aliens comics?

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 02:27:02 AM
You and I agree on the multiverse being the best solution, because one single timeline encompassing everything just doesn't seem, to me at this point, feasible, even if I have tried my hand at compiling a few different A/v/P timelines into one mega-continuity in the past.

I actually have issues when people try and work everything into a mega-continuity because it just doesn't work. It's why I actively avoid trying to use Xenopedia's timeline because if one actually looks around and does some research.. it doesn't really work in my opinion and I'm sure there are others who have the same sentiment. I mean the other day I tried to create a timeline and realized how daunting and tedious it is, especially trying to work in the new comics and everything as divergent timelines.

Definitely. Mega-timelines founder right from the beginning at this point. It's a huge mess of " Engineers seed life on Earth, Predators evolve on Earth but then leave, Engineers come back periodically and are worshiped, but so are Predators, etc, etc." It's just a mess that the multiverse solves nicely.

You could argue that if it was all once nice neat cohesive universe, Fox wouldn't be going down their current road of reinvention.

The fact Fox and Dark Horse are going down that road of reinvention shows what a mess it has all become over the last 20+, as I just gave an example of (the Engineer/Predator ancient aliens debacle). I'm all for a new continuity that's carefully managed and stays cohesive.

Quote from: SM on Jan 18, 2014, 04:55:19 AM
You could argue that if it was all once nice neat cohesive universe, Fox wouldn't be going down their current road of reinvention.

But as we all know, Fox stamps everything licensed as canon. They also don't even so much as mention what is canon and what isn't. So unless Fox comes out and says that the old stuff is no longer recognized as canon, and it's highly likely that they won't, the discarded continuity will be seen as the alternative. It would be as you said in a previous post you made in this thread.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:05:42 AM
The fact Fox and Dark Horse are going down that road of reinvention shows what a mess it has all become over the last 20+, as I just gave an example of (the Engineer/Predator ancient aliens debacle). I'm all for a new continuity that's carefully managed and stays cohesive.

The thing is with looking at this new continuity, and the old one.. and assuming that Fox doesn't speak out on where the old continuity is going, we maybe looking at two canon sources as far as the expanded universe material goes. Therefore we would have two separate universes amongst a small number of others, assuming that this idea has any merit to it.

Which is where the multiverse, as I understand it, comes in. We can have two (or even more) separate continuities all existing together, like other comic or movies series (Godzilla being a good example). I take "canon" as just meaning that a movie/comic/video game/novel has a valid place somewhere in the multiverse, IE Fox will never come out and say that the old comics were wrong or invalid, therefore they will have a valid place in the multiverse even if they're contradicted by sources somewhere else in the multiverse (like the news comics). Everyone wins that way.

Well, except for the people who want it to all be in one universe, of course. :P

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:24:38 AM
Well, except for the people who want it to all be in one universe, of course. :P

The great thing about multiverse and personal canon is that if you want one mega-continuity to exist, it can, as long as you can make it work in a way you find convincing to yourself. What won't ever happen is one canon/continuity/universe that everyone agrees on.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:21:21 AM
Which is where the multiverse, as I understand it, comes in. We can have two (or even more) separate continuities all existing together, like other comic or movies series (Godzilla being a good example).

Well I would think that we already have multiple continuities with the movies anyway, similarly to the Godzilla and Highlander films. Of course I speak about where AvP, PREDATORS and Prometheus fits in of course. Much like the Highlander series, it's pretty much a choice of which route you want to go. Same principal as the Godzilla films too.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:24:38 AM
Well, except for the people who want it to all be in one universe, of course. :P

I am actually flabbergasted that you somehow managed to work in a fanon retcon for the Kenner Operation Aliens comics which were included in the toys. Not many people consider those comics, but as we all know, Operation Aliens almost made it to Saturday Morning Cartoon status-- there are even screenshots of the unaired pilot.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Jan 18, 2014, 05:28:33 AM

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:21:21 AM
Which is where the multiverse, as I understand it, comes in. We can have two (or even more) separate continuities all existing together, like other comic or movies series (Godzilla being a good example).

Well I would think that we already have multiple continuities with the movies anyway, similarly to the Godzilla and Highlander films. Of course I speak about where AvP, PREDATORS and Prometheus fits in of course. Much like the Highlander series, it's pretty much a choice of which route you want to go. Same principal as the Godzilla films too.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:24:38 AM
Well, except for the people who want it to all be in one universe, of course. :P

I am actually flabbergasted that you somehow managed to work in a fanon retcon for the Kenner Operation Aliens comics which were included in the toys.

I'm going to take that as a compliment. :)

Quote from: Ultramorph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:26:45 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 05:24:38 AM
Well, except for the people who want it to all be in one universe, of course. :P

The great thing about multiverse and personal canon is that if you want one mega-continuity to exist, it can, as long as you can make it work in a way you find convincing to yourself. What won't ever happen is one canon/continuity/universe that everyone agrees on.

Exactly, which is what makes this thread a little silly to me. People are already acting like the "multiverse" idea is an agreed-upon "fact", and the new stuff isn't even out yet.

Fair enough. I have no major disagreements with either of you, it seems.  :)

All I just wanted to see is how people thought of an AvP Multiverse is all. Heh.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 04:11:29 AM
Capcom's AvP is easy, it takes place sometime after the infestation of Earth and its reclamation in The Female War, but before the Aliens have been completely exterminated from the planet.

I don't know about this.  The infestation of San Drad struck me as a singular event, with just one queen involved, where the city and its immediate surroundings were put under quarantine.

Quote from: Many Angled One on Jan 18, 2014, 05:55:02 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 04:11:29 AM
Capcom's AvP is easy, it takes place sometime after the infestation of Earth and its reclamation in The Female War, but before the Aliens have been completely exterminated from the planet.

I don't know about this.  The infestation of San Drad struck me as a singular event, with just one queen involved, where the city and its immediate surroundings were put under quarantine.

That's why I figure it happens after The Female War - it's an isolated breach of quarantine.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 06:01:10 AM

Quote from: Many Angled One on Jan 18, 2014, 05:55:02 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 04:11:29 AM
Capcom's AvP is easy, it takes place sometime after the infestation of Earth and its reclamation in The Female War, but before the Aliens have been completely exterminated from the planet.

I don't know about this.  The infestation of San Drad struck me as a singular event, with just one queen involved, where the city and its immediate surroundings were put under quarantine.

That's why I figure it happens after The Female War - it's an isolated breach of quarantine.

That's possible, although I always just saw it as a result of that military commander's tests on the aliens going horribly wrong, separate from any other incidents.

And Dutch is, what, 200+ years old by this point?

Quote from: SM on Jan 18, 2014, 12:49:06 PM
And Dutch is, what, 200+ years old by this point?

According to the game's manual, he (and Linn Kurosawa) are androids.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 18, 2014, 03:43:48 PM
According to the game's manual, he (and Linn Kurosawa) are androids.

And his in-game biography also mentions his encounter with the first Predator, I believe.

Perhaps it's talking about the original Dutch.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 19, 2014, 01:30:02 AM
Perhaps it's talking about the original Dutch.

The thing is with the Capcom AvP, is that the biographies are inconsistent somewhat-- especially regarding Dutch. They mention the character's exploits in 1987 indicating that it's supposed to be Arnold's character, but then they mention him losing his arm during the Xenomorph wars. Also they refer to him more as a cyborg than an android. Cyborg, being the term that he was originally human by then gradually had his body replaced with mechanical appendages or parts. Also, adding further to this inconsistency is when he is selected, he is referred to as Schaefer the Fourth.

Thing is, you had me convinced that the Capcom AvP could fit in a "mega-timeline" when you mentioned it taking place after the Alien Earth Infestation and Female War but then I was reminded of Dutch and SM pointed that out.

I'm still confident it could fit, considering he's meant to be an android - albeit perhaps one based on Dutch in some capacity.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 19, 2014, 07:44:00 AM
I'm still confident it could fit, considering he's meant to be an android - albeit perhaps one based on Dutch in some capacity.

I would prefer to think that Capcom's AvP might exist in it's own world, especially considering the fact that Capcom had taken a lot of liberties with the Xenomorphs and their reproduction method, which now seemingly turned their hosts into mindless Zombies. I'm sure that's probably a throwback to the Earth Hive storylines but some of the changes were extremely radical.

Also, I am still trying to wrap my head around Dutch being an android. His biography doesn't really so much as add up, not to mention the name he's given "Schaefer the Fourth" suggest that it's not the same character but a descendent from Arnold's character. But if we again, look at the biography it's suggesting it is Arnold's character. Capcom was never really good at writing storylines for it's characters, I say this as a Capcom fan who is familiar with Street Fighter and it's.. confusing storyline.

Also... Linn Kurosawa appears in plenty of Street Fighter games as a background character. I would think she applies more to Capcom than Fox.

I love the idea of multi-verses.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 01:13:53 AM
I love the idea of multi-verses.

It would fix a lot of problems. I can agree that much.. Though I would think that indirectly, there already is one but Fox hasn't officially addressed it. And it's likely that they never really will.

Gimme a list of your problems in chronological order, it'll be fun to discuss

If there's a multiverse - there are no problems.

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 01:19:53 AM
If there's a multiverse - there are no problems.

Yes but if all the films/ media are canon, I'd like to hear about the problems he has with the discrepancies.

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 01:19:53 AM
If there's a multiverse - there are no problems.

I recall you saying that there already was one, and I am inclined to believe you. But a lot of people out there don't really see it.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 01:18:30 AM
Gimme a list of your problems in chronological order, it'll be fun to discuss

I was referring to clashes in the timeline. Namely regarding Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp, as both have different foundation dates and of course.. different founders who founded the same company.

QuoteI recall you saying that there already was one, and I am inclined to believe you. But a lot of people out there don't really see it.

Bah - what do they know?

Yeah that one would be really dumb if it was all the one canon and don't forget human Bishop in A3.

One of the massive problems I have with the idea their all one canon is the gigerlessness of the Xenomorphs in AVP & AVP:R.
It works for Resurrection because they're more human influenced but makes no sense in AVP.

Also the dumb faces of the Predators in AVP. lol

---

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 01:25:49 AM

QuoteI recall you saying that there already was one, and I am inclined to believe you. But a lot of people out there don't really see it.

Bah - what do they know?

"This is no rabble of mindless fanboys, these are moron-on-highs their skulls thick and flame-shields broad."

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 01:33:15 AM
Yeah that one would be really dumb if it was all the one canon and don't forget human Bishop in A3.

One of the massive problems I have with the idea their all one canon is the gigerlessness of the Xenomorphs in AVP & AVP:R.
It works for Resurrection because they're more human influenced but makes no sense in AVP.

Also the dumb faces of the Predators in AVP. lol

Well there are even more issues within the expanded universe material. In the original Aliens comic series-- it was supposed to be a continuation of Hicks and Newt during the whole Earth Hive incident. Ripley was even involved with this but when Alien 3 came out, Fox had asked Dark Horse to re-write those events. They even went as far as to renaming Hicks and Newt to Wilkes and Billie, and Ripley was re-written as a synthetic. All of this to keep it in continuity with the movies. Then came Resurrection which mentioned that none of the Xenomorphs were reported within the last 200 years and were extinct, and this would've made a large portion of the EU null and void but again Dark Horse tried to retcon this to keep the stories by ushering in the whole Big Deletion event which was mentioned in Thrill of the Hunt and Civilized Beast.

And then there are the new comics and novels which largely ignore the material published in the last twenty five years. Infact, Dark Horse's new reboot comic writers explicitly state that they are doing a clean slate, using only the films (excluding the AVP films) as a reference and jumping point. Since this series is a reboot-- it doesn't retcon the old comics or novels out of canon. It's going to be it's own separate thing, apparently.

Also... I sincerely doubt that the aesthetics of the creatures in either AvP film have an impact on the storyline of the films. I'm pretty sure that if Stan Winston (God bless his soul) were in charge of the special effects and creature suits, it wouldn't have altered the storyline much, if at all but it would most certainly quiet some of the complaints.

Shame about the comics, never read them myself but I heard some were great.

It's not purely aesthetics though, for Predators it's inherently linked to their culture.
I remember the AVP comics that took place before 2004 mentioning acid-proof armour and yet in AVP they don't have any? Wtf?

In Resurrection the way they look and ablities they have, have a lot to do with the story of the previous films.
IMO for example, I feel that the reason the drones in Resurrection look like a mix between runners and drones is because Tge Runner died in relatively the same place Ripley did, this would explain: The drones fin tail (swimming in molten lead), ability to spit acid and digitrade legs. As well as Ripley 8's heightened sense of smell.

But in AVP they retain the organic appear and other features, just 'cause?

That's stupid from an continuity perspective.

If they're bred out of humans for a number of generations - why wouldn't they have a more organic look?

And why would Predators in AvP have acid proof armour?  It's supposed to be a trial.

It makes more sense for the Predator in AvP2 to have acid proof armour since he's there to clean up a mess.  Not only did he have acid proof armour but also acid proof skin...

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 02:08:43 AM
If they're bred out of humans for a number of generations - why wouldn't they have a more organic look?

And why would Predators in AvP have acid proof armour?  It's supposed to be a trial.

It makes more sense for the Predator in AvP2 to have acid proof armour since he's there to clean up a mess.  Not only did he have acid proof but also acid proof skin...

Organic yeah I can buy, but we also know that the Alien/Alien Eggs in the original film were bred from the Engineers which are also human and these eggs were also in a state of hibernation. Much like the Queen in AVP.

And also the fact that they are organic and manage to look nearly exactly the same as the ones in Resurrection some 200+ years later? A random DNA mix?

Yeah not buying that.

Acid Proof skin... wut did I miss something?

QuoteOrganic yeah I can buy, but we also know that the Alien/Alien Eggs in the original film were bred from the Engineers which are also human and these eggs were also in a state of hibernation.

We don't know they were bred from Engineers.  There's only one that was bred from an Engineer and we never see it.

Whether they were in hibernation or not has no bearing on anything.

QuoteAnd also the fact that they are organic and manage to look nearly exactly the same as the ones in Resurrection some 200+ years later? A random DNA mix?

With Resurrection, anything can be explained with 'genetics did it'.  And you can pretty much do the same with AvP since we don't know their lineage.

QuoteAcid Proof skin... wut did I miss something?

Crushed an Alien's head wearing sandals.  PredAlien (may its name etc.) spewed acid all over him.

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 02:08:43 AM
It makes more sense for the Predator in AvP2 to have acid proof armour since he's there to clean up a mess.  Not only did he have acid proof armour but also acid proof skin...

I have heard another fan on another forum make the claim that the Brothers Strause wanted to have the PredAlien's acid melt away at Wolf's flesh upon impact, but either the rain had made that problematic during filming or budget constraints were a problem which is why they didn't include that effect. Does commentary on the DVD or Blu-ray touch on this subject?

Don't know.

In camera effects can be very time consuming, which means expensive, especially if you have to reset them every time to do another take.

But they're visual effects artists - way better visual effects artists than filmmakers.  There's no excuse.  A hissing sound effect and digital smoke comped over the top would've been better than the crap they served up.

I've listen to all the commentaries for all the films, there's a lot of stuff they wanted to do but couldn't.
The acid is one, and all of them were due to budget constraints.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 18, 2014, 01:24:20 AM

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 01:19:53 AM
If there's a multiverse - there are no problems.

I recall you saying that there already was one, and I am inclined to believe you. But a lot of people out there don't really see it.

He was stating an opinion, not a fact. :)

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 03:23:30 AM
I've listen to all the commentaries for all the films, there's a lot of stuff they wanted to do but couldn't.
The acid is one, and all of them were due to budget constraints.

Which flies in the face of them saying they came in on time and under budget, which meant Fox gave them more money to shoot the Predator planet stuff.

Quote from: SM on Feb 18, 2014, 03:31:04 AM

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 03:23:30 AM
I've listen to all the commentaries for all the films, there's a lot of stuff they wanted to do but couldn't.
The acid is one, and all of them were due to budget constraints.

Which flies in the face of them saying they came in on time and under budget, which meant Fox gave them more money to shoot the Predator planet stuff.

Yeah, a lot of the stuff sounded like they just didn't care about tge quality of the film but were more interested in fapping to the Predator.

They even said the Predalien was 2/3 Predator Wtf guys.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 18, 2014, 03:25:35 AM
He was stating an opinion, not a fact. :)

Opinion it may be, but his opinions are well founded and often times have solid grounding.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 18, 2014, 03:34:13 AM
They even said the Predalien was 2/3 Predator Wtf guys.

I think that was Davis who said that.

QuoteOpinion it may be, but his opinions are well founded and often times have solid grounding.

Nobody's perfect. ;)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 18, 2014, 09:23:53 PM
Nobody's perfect. ;)

That would also apply to you, by extension.

A lot of fandoms out there have a similar situation with their canon like we do with Alien-Predator. Transformers being one of them, in regards to their own canon issue as Hasbro hasn't given an official statement on what fits where, and how it works.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Personal_canon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Personal_canon)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity)

So you know what they did? They organized how canon works. Maybe the Transfans have the right idea and perhaps we should take an example from their text books.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity_family (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity_family)

If Transformers fans did it for the numerous conflicting continuities that happen to be canon since Hasbro hasn't given out a word on what is canon and what isn't and pretty much created a system to organize said canon... Why can't Alien-Predator fans? Sure you could argue the timelines, but I think a lot of people would say that they are divergent and have little to no connection with each other on a few occasions. And then there are different cuts, which can or can not be accounted for.

I don't think there should be a multiverse in the AVP series at all; if previous franchises are any indication, multiverse crossovers within the AVP series would eventually sprout up and that sounds horrible for this franchise.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 23, 2014, 06:47:32 PM
I don't think there should be a multiverse in the AVP series at all; if previous franchises are any indication, multiverse crossovers within the AVP series would eventually sprout up and that sounds horrible for this franchise.

Normal people will just ignore that crap.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 23, 2014, 06:47:32 PM
I don't think there should be a multiverse in the AVP series at all; if previous franchises are any indication, multiverse crossovers within the AVP series would eventually sprout up and that sounds horrible for this franchise.

If you want to get technical, some crossovers are somewhat considered canonical.. within the universes of said other franchises. WILDCats and Judge Dredd being two of them, and.. if you REALLY want to get technical.. there was a crossover with Dark Horse's own titles such as Ghost, X, Motorhead, and Agents of Law. A Predator even killed the titular superhero/supervillain character of Law in Agents of Law #6.. And that's actually considered canon and the Agents of Law title was abruptly canned. So.. crossovers have already been done.

I think there should be a multiverse, because it just makes things a lot easier and better organized. A lot more organized than what is deemed as a singular timeline which is a continuity clusterf**k as it is. It'd end a good deal of debates, and fans are even more free to choose what they want to follow and it'd still be valid. I just Fox would or someone would implement the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse. Shit, even Perry considers some stories-- namely Shirely's Hish mythos as an alternate universe and I think the same could be said vice versa or something.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 23, 2014, 06:56:00 PM
Normal people will just ignore that crap.

General rule of thumb is that crossovers aren't canon... But considering the crossovers with Dark Horse's own titles.. maybe up to debate seeing as Dark Horse holds the licenses to the franchises and well.. for the most part may consider those crossovers canon. I say MAY because so far the only evidence which suggests so is the Agents of Law crossover.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 23, 2014, 06:47:32 PM
I don't think there should be a multiverse in the AVP series at all; if previous franchises are any indication, multiverse crossovers within the AVP series would eventually sprout up and that sounds horrible for this franchise.

I'm not sure about that. The A/v/P universe really has no history of time travel or universe-hopping stories, unlike say Transformers or Marvel universes. The worst we'll get out of Fox is more Ripley apocrypha.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 23, 2014, 08:53:18 PM
The worst we'll get out of Fox is more Ripley apocrypha.

And involvement with Rodriguez and the Super Predators..  :-\

As far as Time-Travel is concerned well... The NECA backstories for the Predator 2 Lost Clan does make something a little blurb about that but really.. who considers the NECA backstories as such? I know only two people off the top of my head. And if you do want to get technical, if one looks at the context of Predator 2's future setting of 1997 when the movie was released could be considered a different timeline. But people often debate that-- I've made a thread about that somewhere.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 23, 2014, 08:58:18 PM
As far as Time-Travel is concerned well... The NECA backstories for the Predator 2 Lost Clan does make something a little blurb about that but really.. who considers the NECA backstories as such?

Wow, I need to look that up. That's so silly.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 23, 2014, 09:42:38 PM
Wow, I need to look that up. That's so silly.

Here you go! They actually mention that they are travelers of both time and space.

"The Lost Hunters, a clan shrouded in mystery, travelers of both time and space. The Predators exist to hunt and they adhere to a strict code of honor where defeat equals death."

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.figures.com%2Fforums%2Fattachments%2Fnews%2F23647d1321464892-advance-look-neca-predators-series-4-1preds4pack.jpg&hash=1f49b5b50525f5edb446a6dd0903304d77887554)

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 23, 2014, 05:52:58 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 18, 2014, 09:23:53 PM
Nobody's perfect. ;)

That would also apply to you, by extension.

Well, yes. :P

QuoteA lot of fandoms out there have a similar situation with their canon like we do with Alien-Predator. Transformers being one of them, in regards to their own canon issue as Hasbro hasn't given an official statement on what fits where, and how it works.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Personal_canon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Personal_canon)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity)

So you know what they did? They organized how canon works. Maybe the Transfans have the right idea and perhaps we should take an example from their text books.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity_family (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity_family)

If Transformers fans did it for the numerous conflicting continuities that happen to be canon since Hasbro hasn't given out a word on what is canon and what isn't and pretty much created a system to organize said canon... Why can't Alien-Predator fans? Sure you could argue the timelines, but I think a lot of people would say that they are divergent and have little to no connection with each other on a few occasions. And then there are different cuts, which can or can not be accounted for.

It's worth pointing out that the "multiverse" policy you just talked about with Transformers actually has been codified by Hasbro - what's described on TFWiki is Hasbro's actual policy that they follow internally and have told fans about.
Transformers canon is actually really, really easy. Everything that's from an officially licensed source (i.e. carries the Hasbro/Takara trademark on it somewhere) is canon to some continuity, and there's several continuity families with literally infinite permutations within those main families to account for potential contradictions and whatnot.

I'm just clarifying for people who might not realize it that the fandom did not make up the Transformers canon/continuity policy, that was entirely Hasbro.
I'm also a pretty big Transformers nerd/collector. :P

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 23, 2014, 09:50:08 PM

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 23, 2014, 09:42:38 PM
Wow, I need to look that up. That's so silly.

Here you go! They actually mention that they are travelers of both time and space.

"The Lost Hunters, a clan shrouded in mystery, travelers of both time and space. The Predators exist to hunt and they adhere to a strict code of honor where defeat equals death."

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.figures.com%2Fforums%2Fattachments%2Fnews%2F23647d1321464892-advance-look-neca-predators-series-4-1preds4pack.jpg&hash=1f49b5b50525f5edb446a6dd0903304d77887554)

You're kind of misinterpreting the "time" part - it means that they're long-lived and have been around long enough to span centures, as evidenced by the Elder Predator and his flintlock pistol. It doesn't mean they're literally Doc Brown 1.21 gigawatts time travelers. :P

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 02:56:56 AM
It's worth pointing out that the "multiverse" policy you just talked about with Transformers actually has been codified by Hasbro - what's described on TFWiki is Hasbro's actual policy that they follow internally and have told fans about.

Transformers canon is actually really, really easy. Everything that's from an officially licensed source (i.e. carries the Hasbro/Takara trademark on it somewhere) is canon to some continuity, and there's several continuity families with literally infinite permutations within those main families to account for potential contradictions and whatnot.

Okay that makes sense then and somethings are cleared up for me but considering that a lot of people within the fandom, happen to see a lot of clashes within the timeline and what not.. Why can't there be an Alien-Predator multiverse? Or rather let me ask, why SHOULDN'T there be an Alien-Predator multiverse? What would it invalidate? What could it really harm?

You yourself have posted up from numerous official sources ranging from Rebellion, Gear Box and Dark Horse various quotations that Fox is actually very flexible with the canon. I've looked up on Google on Fox's stance on canon and I came across your quotations on Gear Box forums with these particular quotations. While I do agree with you that everything is canon, I do not agree that it is all in the same continuity. Now I know that you and PredXeno like to do fan retcons to make everything fit but for many others, fan retcons are just personal head-canons and nothing definitive. So far the only things which could be considered "definitive" are Robert Rodriguez's words, Nimrod Antal's words, Paul W.S. Anderson's words, and Ridley Scott's words as well as the Weyland Corp timeline. But you don't like to refer to Word of God or Authorial Intent.. So, the only thing is the Weyland Corp timeline if we consider that.

I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 02:56:56 AM
You're kind of misinterpreting the "time" part - it means that they're long-lived and have been around long enough to span centures, as evidenced by the Elder Predator and his flintlock pistol. It doesn't mean they're literally Doc Brown 1.21 gigawatts time travelers. :P

Alright, fine.. I'll give you the fact that I probably may have misinterpreted something there. I'll give you that.

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

And officially, according to FOX, that's exactly what it is. If fans want to have a multiverse in their own personal canon, then thumbs up for them. :) I personally don't like the idea.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM
All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

I wonder how many people that would be. Especially how given there are a lot of people out there who don't want Predators in their Alien movies, or Aliens in their Predator movies... or Super Predators in their Predator movies, or Engineers in their Alien movies. Even people like Robert Rodriguez, Nimrod Antal and Ridley Scott didn't want their movies being seen as a single continuity with the black sheep films of the two franchises.

I for one was content with it being a single continuity prior to the making of Predators, I thought they should've left it alone. But as we know, they didn't and if you ask me it just made things confusing. And no fan retcon will convince me otherwise.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM
And officially, according to FOX, that's exactly what it is. If fans want to have a multiverse in their own personal canon, then thumbs up for them. :) I personally don't like the idea.

Give me a quote from someone official at Fox. So far Fox hasn't said anything in regards to what is canon and what isn't. And we all know that some things happens to clash and not mesh very well.

So far the only thing which I have heard was from a licensee company, namely an official at Dark Horse say that Fox is very flexible with canon-- extremely flexible, and then there is Damon Lindelof's quote who mentions looking over the canon, AvP films included but admits that canon isn't coherent and that story ultimately wins out.

Personal canon is fine and all but to me, a multiverse would fix a lot of things.

QuoteEven people like Robert Rodriguez, Nimrod Antal and Ridley Scott didn't want their movies being seen as a single continuity with the black sheep films of the two franchises.

As far as I'm aware, Antal hasn't said anything like that. And shit, neither has Ridley Scott if you want to get technical about it. In fact, I'm aware of at least one quote where Antal says that the jaw attached to Berserker's mask is a xenomorph jaw.

And at the end of the day, FOX owns the franchises and can do with them as it pleases. :)

QuoteGive me a quote from someone official at Fox. So far Fox hasn't said anything in regards to what is canon and what isn't.

This is false and you know it, seeing as how you referenced the list of quotes I've posted here and elsewhere. :P
FOX has been really consistent about everything being part of one continuity, regardless of any perceived contradictions.

Shit, just look at the upcoming Dark Horse series - we're getting 4 new titles, and Dark Horse has already said that they're going to be connected to each other and reference each other in some sort of overarching plot. Which is exactly how it's been for nearly 20 years.

QuotePersonal canon is fine and all but to me, a multiverse would fix a lot of things.

Then make a multiverse a part of your personal canon and let it fix your problems. :) You wouldn't be the first person to take that approach, and that's totally fine.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 04:05:02 AM
As far as I'm aware, Antal hasn't said anything like that. And shit, neither has Ridley Scott if you want to get technical about it. In fact, I'm aware of at least one quote where Antal says that the jaw attached to Berserker's mask is a xenomorph jaw.

I wouldn't listen to Antal, seeing as how many times he has contradicted himself saying that the movie has nothing to do with the AvP movies whatsoever. That's why I go with Robert's word.

And then there is the Weyland Corp website timeline which conflicts with AVP's timeline

And sure, Fox owns the franchises and can do with them what they please but then again do people really want to listen to what Fox says in regards to what is canon-- you know, with disaster projects like Colonial Marines? Or something silly as the Kenner Operation Aliens comics or even the NECA backstories?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 04:05:02 AM
This is false and you know it, seeing as how you referenced the list of quotes I've posted here and elsewhere. :P
FOX has been really consistent about everything being part of one continuity, regardless of any perceived contradictions.

Remembering quotes you have posted, I know that you referenced the Quadrilogy Disc set saying that the comics and novels were tied in to be a single continuity with the movies. Right now I am looking for the link via Google for that particular thread you shared those quotes with to be sure there might be more than I remember.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 04:05:02 AM
Shit, just look at the upcoming Dark Horse series - we're getting 4 new titles, and Dark Horse has already said that they're going to be connected to each other and reference each other in some sort of overarching plot. Which is exactly how it's been for nearly 20 years.

Those four titles are only going to be connected with each other but they aren't connecting with the previous publications that came out some twenty five years ago. The new stories are confirmed to be a hard reboot by editor Scott Allie, and the writers of said upcoming publications as well.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 04:05:02 AM
Then make a multiverse a part of your personal canon and let it fix your problems. :) You wouldn't be the first person to take that approach, and that's totally fine.

The idea of this whole thread is to get a feel about how people would feel about a Multiverse. A lot of franchises out there happen to have a multi-verse going on and so far it has helped maintained things. I just want to know how fans would feel if a multiverse were to be applied to the Alien and Predator franchises.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

The question is WHY do these people want it to be one continuity.

QuoteI wouldn't listen to Antal, seeing as how many times he has contradicted himself saying that the movie has nothing to do with the AvP movies whatsoever. That's why I go with Robert's word.

So what you're saying is it's subjective who you listen to and who you don't.

QuoteAnd sure, Fox owns the franchises and can do with them what they please but then again do people really want to listen to what Fox says in regards to what is canon-- you know, with disaster projects like Colonial Marines? Or something silly as the Kenner Operation Aliens comics or even the NECA backstories?

Silly or not, none of that changes the fact that FOX owns the franchise and gets to make the "official" rules about what's canon and what's not.
If you don't like what they say, you're more than welcome to have your own "personal canon", which could very well be a multiverse if you want. :)
But trying to say that that's how it "officially" should be for all discussion in the fandom, as some kind of unilateral decision, that's more than a little silly. :P

QuoteRemembering quotes you have posted, I know that you referenced the Quadrilogy Disc set saying that the comics and novels were tied in to be a single continuity with the movies. Right now I am looking for the link via Google for that particular thread you shared those quotes with to be sure there might be more than I remember.

I have the quotes handy, I can PM them to you if you want. :P

QuoteThose four titles are only going to be connected with each other but they aren't connecting with the previous publications that came out some twenty five years ago. The new stories are confirmed to be a hard reboot by editor Scott Allie, and the writers of said upcoming publications as well.

That's not what I was saying - I was saying that the Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus titles are going to cross-reference each other. That undermines what you were saying earlier about "Especially how given there are a lot of people out there who don't want Predators in their Alien movies, or Aliens in their Predator movies... or Super Predators in their Predator movies, or Engineers in their Alien movies." Right out of the gate, all of those people don't get what they want.

As for the "hard reboot", we'll see. :) Based on the quotes you posted from Dark Horse, it's not as "hard" of a reboot as I think you're making it out to be - they're not overwriting or erasing the old stories, they're just (possibly) not referencing them.
Just like DH Press did with the novels from like a decade ago, with their "reboot" that ended up referencing the 90s comics anyway. :P

QuoteI just want to know how fans would feel if a multiverse were to be applied to the Alien and Predator franchises.

I think it'd suck. :P

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 24, 2014, 12:26:16 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

The question is WHY do these people want it to be one continuity.

Because it's fun and I like it. :)

It's also f**king retarded.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 24, 2014, 03:48:56 AM
Give me a quote from someone official at Fox. So far Fox hasn't said anything in regards to what is canon and what isn't. And we all know that some things happens to clash and not mesh very well.

So far the only thing which I have heard was from a licensee company, namely an official at Dark Horse say that Fox is very flexible with canon-- extremely flexible, and then there is Damon Lindelof's quote who mentions looking over the canon, AvP films included but admits that canon isn't coherent and that story ultimately wins out.

Personal canon is fine and all but to me, a multiverse would fix a lot of things.

"Personal canon" (such an oxymoron, but what the hell!, let's go for it...) is fine, but that a multiverse would fix things is the understatement of the year. A multiverse is the _ONLY WAY_ to make it all work together (even though some people are in deep, deep denial, alternatively sucking up to FUX). I know that the new comics are supposed to fix it all magically, which they won't  and can't since they're comics and not movies (these franchises, except for AvP, started as movies - the original media of the franchises are movies, they come first when it comes to the general public as well as the majority of the fans. And the movies, the ALIEN ones have made it completely impossible for any of the EU or AvP events to have taken place in the same universe and continuity. A3 and A:R makes it painfully clear and obvious), and even more so since they won't retcon all the old EU out of existence. The new comic series won't be the deus ex machina that will make it all work out - it'll make it even more confusing and muddled.

A multiverse on the other hand would fix everything - everyone wins, no one loses. It's the ultimate compromise, because the way things are now (thanks to FUX), there is no canon, just the original movies of the separate two original franchises, a bunch of incoherent and inconsistent EU material (comics, games, novels...) without continuity plus a bunch of crossovers (AvP included) and a spin-off (Prometheus). Nothing fits. It's all a huge mess.

You're completely right Beagle.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 24, 2014, 12:26:16 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

The question is WHY do these people want it to be one continuity.

I think the idea of a multiverse is just too cartoony; the only acceptable multiverse IMO is a remake of any of the films.

or they could just...

http://screenrant.com/alien-reboot-niall-10357/ (http://screenrant.com/alien-reboot-niall-10357/)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 24, 2014, 12:26:16 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

The question is WHY do these people want it to be one continuity.

I think the idea of a multiverse is just too cartoony; the only acceptable multiverse IMO is a remake of any of the films.

Nope. AVPR and Jaguar are cartoony not a multiverse which is logical.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 24, 2014, 05:03:00 PM

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 24, 2014, 12:26:16 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2014, 03:32:04 AM

Quote
I would like to ask you why shouldn't there be a multiverse? What could it invalidate? What would it defeat?

All of the people who want it all to be one continuity, of course. :P

The question is WHY do these people want it to be one continuity.

I think the idea of a multiverse is just too cartoony; the only acceptable multiverse IMO is a remake of any of the films.

Nope. AVPR and Jaguar are cartoony not a multiverse which is logical.

I haven't played Jaguar but I don't think AVPR is cartoony at all; it relied on horror movie clichés, yes, but I didn't think it was that bad.  I'm probably saying this because I was a big reader of AVP EU at the time and the storytelling styles were very similar.

Play the Jaguar game, then you'll understand why a multiverse must be.
It contradicts half the lore and it's tone is completely off.

I don't see what's cartoony about a multiverse unless we're saying all these continuities still somehow exist in the same reality like DC comics Infinite Earths.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 24, 2014, 05:23:11 PM
I don't see what's cartoony about a multiverse unless we're saying all these continuities still somehow exist in the same reality like DC comics Infinite Earths.

"Jeez Joel!"

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 24, 2014, 03:58:30 PM
I know that the new comics are supposed to fix it all magically, which they won't  and can't since they're comics and not movies (these franchises, except for AvP, started as movies - the original media of the franchises are movies, they come first when it comes to the general public as well as the majority of the fans.

Given the fact that I have personally asked one of the writers of the new comics if this was going to jettison the old EU out of canon, and his answer essentially that they weren't going to render them moot-- pretty much confirms that they aren't retconning the old stories and just ignoring them. I do agree that this doesn't and won't fIx anything. It's just a different angle off the films.

Also, in many franchises the source material does take precedence over the others material. Films take precedence. This would also include the AvP films, even though that particular franchise had started out as a different medium.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 24, 2014, 03:58:30 PM
A multiverse on the other hand would fix everything - everyone wins, no one loses. It's the ultimate compromise, because the way things are now (thanks to FUX), there is no canon, just the original movies of the separate two original franchises, a bunch of incoherent and inconsistent EU material (comics, games, novels...) without continuity plus a bunch of crossovers (AvP included) and a spin-off (Prometheus). Nothing fits. It's all a huge mess.

Pretty much I agree with this one hundred percent. I do agree that no one loses, everyone wins. I mean think about it, if people want to have their Alien movies with no Predators, it can be designated as a separate universe. If people want their Predator movies without Harrigan, Aliens or Weyland-- that can be designated as a separate universe. If people want Predator 2, Alien and AvP-R, with the Alien films but without PREDATORS or Prometheus-- that can be designated as a separate universe.

Sure, personal canon allows fans to do that but if this were something officially addressed by Fox.. More power to the fans. It would end senseless debates. Old worlds would be able to be continued without interfering with new worlds being created. A multiverse can happen, and worlds can co-exist without being aware of one another.

The only other franchise which I know that is a far, far worse mess than the Alien-Predator canon is Dr. Who.. which apparently doesn't even have a canon and BBC has even intended for there to be no canon. Fox on the other hand, tries to keep a canon but it is very inconsistent and I agree with what SpreadEagleBeagle said.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
I think the idea of a multiverse is just too cartoony; the only acceptable multiverse IMO is a remake of any of the films.

There is nothing cartoonish about there being a multiverse. Many astrophysicist like Michio Kaku and others have accepted the idea and even acknowledge the existence of a multiverse. If the scientific community in real life has accepted the possibility of there being a multiverse, then there is nothing cartoonish about it. I take the idea of a multiverse seriously, very seriously.

A lot of franchises ultize the idea of a multiverse. Marvel, DC, Transformers, Terminator.. And I think the Godzilla franchise does as well to a certain extent. I do know that the Millennium series for Godzilla all the films were essentially direct sequels to the 1954 original, none of them referencing any of the preceding movies.. except for the Kiryu storyline which does have connections to the 1954 Godzilla movie, and the Showa era Mothra film. And if you really want to reach for it, GMK connects with the 1954 original and briefly makes mention of the 1998 Tristar Godzilla. So.. again, why shouldn't Alien-Predator have something similar?

But in regards to Godzilla, has Toho officially addressed a multiverse for the Godzilla franchise?

As far as remaking the films go.. You know at this point, I'm not against the idea of a remake or a hard reboot. I'll take anything to get rid the negative feelings PREDATORS left me with.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 24, 2014, 05:32:42 PM

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
I think the idea of a multiverse is just too cartoony; the only acceptable multiverse IMO is a remake of any of the films.

There is nothing cartoonish about there being a multiverse. Many astrophysicist like Michio Kaku and others have accepted the idea and even acknowledge the existence of a multiverse. If the scientific community in real life has accepted the possibility of there being a multiverse, then there is nothing cartoonish about it. I take the idea of a multiverse seriously, very seriously.

A lot of franchises ultize the idea of a multiverse. Marvel, DC, Transformers, Terminator.. And I think the Godzilla franchise does as well to a certain extent. I do know that the Millennium series for Godzilla all the films were essentially direct sequels to the 1954 original, none of them referencing any of the preceding movies.. except for the Kiryu storyline which does have connections to the 1954 Godzilla movie, and the Showa era Mothra film. And if you really want to reach for it, GMK connects with the 1954 original and briefly makes mention of the 1998 Tristar Godzilla. So.. again, why shouldn't Alien-Predator have something similar?

As far as remaking the films go.. You know at this point, I'm not against the idea of a remake or a hard reboot. I'll take anything to get rid the negative feelings PREDATORS left me with.

I get the science behind string theory and alternate universes, but I think it's pretty cartoony to introduce them into a franchise that has never mentioned such things.  Most franchises that utilize such concepts are pretty much those that spawned from comic books, the Terminator series can get away with it because of time paradoxes, and the Godzilla series is more about remakes than a deliberate intention to create different universes.

PredXeno? What?

The (Any of them) universe doesn't need to even hint at it for it to exist.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 05:36:46 PM
I get the science behind string theory and alternate universes, but I think it's pretty cartoony to introduce them into a franchise that has never mentioned such things.

I strongly disagree that there is anything cartoonish about the Alien-Predator franchise utilizing a multiverse. If anything not only would it organize canon but it would allow more possibilities to happen in their own designated universes. Also, just because a multiverse would exist doesn't necessarily mean that each and every single universe has to acknowledge that there are other universes and even interact with them. If that's what you're worried about, fine but I don't think that would or should be the case.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 05:36:46 PM
Most franchises that utilize such concepts are pretty much those that spawned from comic books, the Terminator series can get away with it because of time paradoxes, and the Godzilla series is more about remakes than a deliberate intention to create different universes.

There are franchises out there that do utilize a multiverse but never have actually interacted one universe with another. The Gundam franchise so happens to be one of them, and they have so many Gundam continuities and universes which have spun off from the Universal Century continuity-- you have Gundam Wing, G-Gundam, Turn-A Gundam, Gundam 00.. so many Gundam universes but none of them interacting with each other.

I would think that the Alien-Predator franchise would benefit from a multiverse but they don't have to have say.. the AvP universe interact with the PREDATORS universe, and suddenly we have Scar, Chopper and Celtic fighting Berserker, Falconer and Tracker. No, we don't have to have that because a multiverse can exist without individual universes being aware of each other and traversing through time-space barriers. None of that has to happen witihin a multiverse, if that's what everyone is worried about.

Out of curiosity, has any movie-based franchise ever used the multiverse concept on their own?  I've heard of remakes and retellings of stories, I'm actually pretty fine with those but I just feel uncomfortable with the idea of creating a brand new story specifically for a different universe.  If there has to be a different universe, I always felt it should be based on a retelling of the story similar to what many other franchises do; this means remaking the original movie stories and having new EU stories born from those.  While I understand that there are many contradictions in the EU as of now, I don't think all the contradicting stories should just be thrown into a different universe; the writers always intended these stories to be a part of the primary universe, also keep in mind that there are always continuity issues in any franchise one looks at (even if they're from the same director).

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 05:56:34 PM
Out of curiosity, has any movie-based franchise ever used the multiverse concept on their own?

The Godzilla franchise. Namely the Heisei films starting with Godzilla 1985 (The Return of Godzilla) which served as a direct sequel to the original 1954 that ignored the Showa era films.. and then that series continued on with Godzilla vs. Biollante, then Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah which used a time paradox via time travel to essentially re-create Godzilla's origins and continued on from there.

Then the Millennium era films ignored the Heisei era films starting with Godzilla 2000 which served as a sequel to the 1954 original, but every entry in the Millenium series ignored the previous entry and served as direct sequels to the original. The only movies which has any continuity in the Millennium series are Godzilla x MechaGodzilla and Tokyo SOS. Toho, or the fans.. I'm not sure.. Consider these as alternate universes.

If you ask me.. PREDATORS and Prometheus sort of did what Godzilla 1985 did. You might even that's just what they did.

I've seen the Godzilla films and I always thought they were more about remakes than a deliberate attempt to create a multiverse.  Actually if I remember correctly, the EU makes efforts to tie them all into a single continuity; specifically I'm referring to the Godzilla Destroy All Monsters Melee, Save The Earth, and Unleashed trilogy.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 06:10:48 PM
I've seen the Godzilla films and I always thought they were more about remakes than a deliberate attempt to create a multiverse.  Actually if I remember correctly, the EU makes efforts to tie them all into a single continuity; specifically I'm referring to the Godzilla Destroy All Monsters Melee, Save The Earth, and Unleashed trilogy.

I am not too familiar with the Godzilla EU, but I have spoken with IDW writers and artist, namely Matt Frank about where some stories fit in. Apparently, according to Matt Frank-- the Godzilla EU is a separate universe from the main universe, and all stories told are essentially their own world.

If anything.. I would say what the Godzilla series has going for it works quite well with Alien-Predator. Infact, that might well be the case since the release of PREDATORS and Prometheus.

Rakai is correct.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 24, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
Rakai is correct.

In what way?

The separate universe.

And I agree that there should be a A/P multi-universe.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 24, 2014, 06:26:38 PM
The separate universe.

And I agree that there should be a A/P multi-universe.

I have to be careful on what I say here otherwise my argument would fall flat on it's face. Now bare in mind, I take into account Word of God and Authorial Intent to help me decide what fits and where it fits in the Alien-Predator canon. It just makes sense and helps keep it very well organized for me as far as the films go and by extension-- the original comics run by Dark Horse. Personally I see the old comics and EU going hand in hand with the films-- though some stories don't fit such as the Hish mythos.

But with the new comics coming out that are being published by Dark Horse, I've had to figure out where and how they fit in with the canon. The fact that they aren't connecting the stories with the old EU, or even referencing them but at the same time they are not retconning them and suggested that it's a hard reboot with the films, sans AvP being kept as gospel for their story.. kind of suggest that it's either a different world which has a large encompassing story or a new universe which has similarities to the old. Again, something which I happened to notice and being in discussions with AvP writer, Chris Sebela has helped.

I think the franchise would benefit from a multiverse to keep it organized and all of it canon. It opens up so many possibilities. Imagine a world where the events of 1987 never happened, or a world where the events of 2122 never happened. A world which can completely stand on it's own without being constricted to previous continuity but has Aliens and Predators. In a multiverse, that could very well fit.

100% agreed RakaiThwei.

You guys know what's funny?  Even if someone did do a multiverse, there will probably be someone else in the future who will tie it all together again. :D

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:05:04 PM
You guys know what's funny?  Even if someone did do a multiverse, there will probably be someone else in the future who will tie it all together again. :D

Which defeats the purpose of the multiverse.  >:(

It's happened before. ;)

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:05:04 PM
You guys know what's funny?  Even if someone did do a multiverse, there will probably be someone else in the future who will tie it all together again. :D

And that would be moronic.
Because it doesn't fit as it bloody well is.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:08:31 PM
It's happened before. ;)

With which franchises?

There's the Godzilla franchise I mentioned earlier; Godzilla 2000 is featured as the hero character in the video games yet there are plenty of monsters from the Heisei, etc. storylines and the producers expect us to follow the classic storylines rather than invent brand new ones for them, makes sense since nobody would care for them. 

Also, John Shirley attempted to write another Predator book for DH Press following Predator: Forever Midnight that bridged the Hish-Yautja discrepancies.  Upon creating the Hish race, Shirley was told to start from scratch and ignore all previous works, when fans later told him of the previous works and the Yautja, Shirley immediately wanted to write a book that would fix the contradictions but for reasons unknown just wasn't able to follow through.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:17:30 PM
There's the Godzilla franchise I mentioned earlier; Godzilla 2000 is featured as the hero character in the video games yet there are plenty of monsters from the Heisei, etc. storylines and the producers expect us to follow the classic storylines rather than invent brand new ones for them, makes sense since nobody would care for them. 

The Godzilla games could be seen as their own worlds or they maybe completely apocrypha. I am not so sure about the Godzilla games and their relationship with the movies aside from certain Kaiju. I do know that the Millenium series has no real solid continuity except for Godzilla x MechaGodzilla and Tokyo SOS. Every movie in the millennium series has served as either a retcon or direct sequel to the 1954 original. As far as the games are concerned-- they don't seem to serve any impact on the movies.

And even if the Godzilla games are somehow canon, there is nothing to suggest that the multiverse collapsed and now is one large universe. If anything the games may suggest that they are their own universe as well which inhabits the Showa, Heisei and Millennium era Kaiju. Not so sure if the events from the movies are counted.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:17:30 PM
Also, John Shirley attempted to write another Predator book for DH Press following Predator: Forever Midnight that bridged the Hish-Yautja discrepancies.  Upon creating the Hish race, Shirley was told to start from scratch and ignore all previous works, when fans later told him of the previous works and the Yautja, Shirley immediately wanted to write a book that would fix the contradictions but for reasons unknown just wasn't able to follow through.

Oh I definitely remember that. It's somewhere in the archive threads but I definitely remember what you are talking about. In many ways, I sort of wish that he had followed up through with it because it would've also potentially answered exactly what the Super Predators could be and it'd make PREDATORS easier (although still bitter and sour) for me to digest. I do know that he wanted to write the as cousin races or something that branched off from one another. Would serve really great for the context of PREDATORS and what the relationship between the Predators and Super Predators have with each other.

But then Fox had decided to outright drop the Hish mythos... probably with good reason. Though now.. I am not so sure. A part of me wants Fox to label the BSPs as the Hish, while we know that the normal Predators are Yautja.

Quote from: predxeno on Feb 24, 2014, 09:05:04 PM
You guys know what's funny?  Even if someone did do a multiverse, there will probably be someone else in the future who will tie it all together again. :D

No, they won't.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Feb 24, 2014, 03:57:04 PM
It's also f**king retarded.

Not really, no. :)

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 24, 2014, 03:58:30 PM
and can't since they're comics and not movies (these franchises, except for AvP, started as movies - the original media of the franchises are movies, they come first when it comes to the general public as well as the majority of the fans

This isn't just a logical fallacy, it's completely unprovable.

Star Wars started out as movies, and their new "canon policy" is that literally everything is on level ground as far as canon is concerned. No more "ranking", etc. Everything is simply canon, or not canon.

That's pretty much the way FOX has been handling the A/P/AvP stuff to date, funnily enough.

QuoteA multiverse on the other hand would fix everything - everyone wins, no one loses. It's the ultimate compromise, because the way things are now (thanks to FUX), there is no canon, just the original movies of the separate two original franchises, a bunch of incoherent and inconsistent EU material (comics, games, novels...) without continuity plus a bunch of crossovers (AvP included) and a spin-off (Prometheus). Nothing fits. It's all a huge mess.

This is also false, for reasons stated.

If FOX were to decide on a "multiverse" that separated Aliens and Predators, that pisses off all the people who like them being together. That's just one really obvious example off the top of my head. Even with a multiverse, there'd be no way to please everybody (and especially not the people who like everything as one universe, they're the first ones to get the shaft).

Yeah, some "compromise". "Everyone wins", el oh el :D

Multiverses work in 2 scenarios:

1. time-travel, such as the Terminator franchise, because "branching timelines" and "different universes" is pretty much the same thing

2. a franchise where things get an absolute hard reboot with no overlap whatsoever between "universes", such as the Transformers franchise. There's multiple Transformers continuity families, and none of them overlap whatsoever - there's a number of different Optimus Primes and they're all distinct and unique, for example, and they could even conceivably "meet each other" if they were to hop from one dimension to the next (and they have).
The A/P/AvP universe doesn't operate like that - there's only one Ripley.

The "multiverse" idea you're talking about is essentially segregating the franchises back out and undoing the "AvP" concept, and that's never going to happen. You can't un-ring the bell, and FOX is obviously uninterested in doing so, what with the new AvP comic books and AvP miniatures game on the horizon, and their continued support of other AvP merchandise and whatnot.

At the end of the day, this forum already caters to a "multiverse" style of discussion. There's the movies sections for people who want to ignore the EU (and even they are segregated, with Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus), there's a games section (and even that is segregated by specific games), there's a literature section, and there's this subforum, which is the catch-all "anything goes" subforum.

If you want a multiverse, the forum is already set up for one and has been operating as one for years, even if the "official" stance from Fox is that there is no "multiverse". You aren't going to change FOX's stance, and trying to get some kind of "consensus" from fans on the internet is like herding cats and about as productive.
Use a multiverse in your "personal canon" and just let everyone else do their own thing. :)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 03:43:37 AM
If FOX were to decide on a "multiverse" that separated Aliens and Predators, that pisses off all the people who like them being together. That's just one really obvious example off the top of my head. Even with a multiverse, there'd be no way to please everybody (and especially not the people who like everything as one universe, they're the first ones to get the shaft).

You and I both know that the franchises started off as two separate movies, though Predator 2 had suggested that it was all set in one single universe with the Alien skull seen in the trophy case. While I always saw the universes as one since Predator 2, a lot of other people had saw it as nothing more than a in-joke, an Easter egg. Similarly to how Freddy Krueger's glove was seen in Friday the 13th: Jason Goes to Hell. But I always saw the franchises originally as one...

Then came PREDATORS and Prometheus which... well... seemed to split the franchises apart again.

The idea of the multiverse doesn't segregate the franchises necessarily as you are worried about. In the multiverse, there could be multiple universes where Predators and Aliens happen to share the same universe, infinite numbers these universes but there could also be universes were Aliens and Predators don't share the same universe. This allows for an AvP universe to exist, this also allows a strictly Predator universe to exist, and this allows a strictly Alien universe to exist. In fact-- the idea allows multiples of all three to exist and allows fans to choose which ones they want to follow!

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 03:43:37 AM
Multiverses work in 2 scenarios:

1. time-travel, such as the Terminator franchise, because "branching timelines" and "different universes" is pretty much the same thing

2. a franchise where things get an absolute hard reboot with no overlap whatsoever between "universes", such as the Transformers franchise. There's multiple Transformers continuity families, and none of them overlap whatsoever - there's a number of different Optimus Primes and they're all distinct and unique, for example, and they could even conceivably "meet each other" if they were to hop from one dimension to the next (and they have).

You're missing a third and fourth... Look at how the Godzilla franchise works. While none of the movies absolutely make mention that there is a multiverse at work-- there definitely is on right then and there when the release of Godzilla 1985 aka The Return of Godzilla was made. That movie completely ignored the rest of the Showa era films except for the 1954 original, served as a direct sequel to that movie and then established a new continuity. Godzilla 2000, Godzilla vs Megaguirus, Godzilla x MechaGodzilla, and GMK: Giant Monsters All Out Attack all serve direct sequels to the 1954 original.

The Highlander series also does this.. namely the movies which apparently is a different universe from the series. Highlander 2 serves as a direct sequel to the original Highlander-- and then there is Highlander III: The Sorcerer which is a direct sequel to the original Highlander. And Highlander the Series retcons the ending of the first film and continues with the established lore. And yet the Highlander movies and series don't make mention of a multiverse but there is one at work. Yes, that includes Highlander 2: The Quickening and it's many cuts.

I would say that looking at some things, there maybe an Alien-Predator multiverse at work. PREDATORS and Prometheus don't even really continue the story where Alien vs Predator left off. And one thing is agreed between those films... the AvP films have little to nothing to do with them. Sure, the movies aren't jettisoned from canon but they aren't following the continuity.

Robert Rodriguez has said these particular quotes regarding on where PREDATORS stands in continuity.

Quote"I originally conceived it back in the day and they had already done Predator 2, and I... pretended that didn't exist and I just went right to Predator 1 and wrote this as a follow up to Predator 1. Which is why this will be Predator and PREDATORS. Almost like ALIEN and ALIENS."

Source: http://youtu.be/YZuQ8hV6yLA?t=6m55s (http://youtu.be/YZuQ8hV6yLA?t=6m55s)

"They wanted to bring back fans of the original, so we were very much 'let's pretend we're doing a sequel to the first movie only and forget everything else existed'."

Source: http://youtu.be/16kklIQMEhw?t=3m8s (http://youtu.be/16kklIQMEhw?t=3m8s)

According to Robert Rodriguez's words.. his movie completely ignores Predator 2, AvP and AvP-R.

However there is also Nimrod Antal's quote where he has mentioned that he considers it the third film in the franchise but they were not counting the AvP films. Thing is.. I wouldn't really listen to Antal because you did make mention that Berserker's jawbone belonged to that of a Xenomorph, and he goes on to later say that the AVPs are dismissed. Regardless on the differences where Antal and Rodriguez see PREDATORS stands in continuity, they both agree that their movie has nothing to do with the AvP films.

And we all know Ridley Scott's feelings for the Alien vs. Predator concept in general. Damon Lindelof suggested that he wanted to use Henrikson's character from AVP for the idea in Prometheus but then Ridley had given him the evil eye and just didn't really care about following the timeline which the AvP films have established.

Rodriguez, Antal and Ridley Scott mutually agree that their movies have nothing to do with the AvP films and don't follow the same timeline. Essentially, this is what the Heisei and Millennium Godzilla films did and this is what Highlander III: The Sorcerer and Highlander the series did. And none of them explicitly mention a multiverse but there are multiverses functioning for the aforementioned franchises.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 03:43:37 AM
At the end of the day, this forum already caters to a "multiverse" style of discussion. There's the movies sections for people who want to ignore the EU (and even they are segregated, with Aliens, Predator, AvP, and Prometheus), there's a games section (and even that is segregated by specific games), there's a literature section, and there's this subforum, which is the catch-all "anything goes" subforum.

If you want a multiverse, the forum is already set up for one and has been operating as one for years, even if the "official" stance from Fox is that there is no "multiverse". You aren't going to change FOX's stance, and trying to get some kind of "consensus" from fans on the internet is like herding cats and about as productive.
Use a multiverse in your "personal canon" and just let everyone else do their own thing. :)

I don't see how the AvPGalaxy forum structure counts as a multiverse. Those are just categories to discuss what they are categorized as-- movies, games, comics and.. even merchandise. They are housing discussions to how the movie was made, how one interprets the stories, what gripes they had with the actors or special effects.. etc, etc..

Funny thing... I've considered on setting up a petition for Fox to address a multiverse but I would think that would prove to be fruitless because not many people would care to support it, it wouldn't be taken very seriously, and Fox just doesn't care about maintaining continuity whatsoever-- so there is not much of a point in trying to do that. All that matters to Fox is putting audiences in seats and selling merchandise.

And even if Fox doesn't really officially address a multiverse.. I would think that there maybe one at work. Some people think that there is one at work already as well. But most would like to see Fox address it officially to make things organized.

Whether or not this threatens your personal canon... I don't know but I'm seeing this idea as being half-full rather than half-empty like you seem to be seeing this, my friend. I mean that with genuine sincerity and no malice.  :)

QuoteRodriguez, Antal and Ridley Scott mutually agree that their movies have nothing to do with the AvP films and don't follow the same timeline.

Perhaps because the perception is that those movies aren't very good and they're distancing themselves from them (Pred 2 inclusive, which wasn't very well received at the time).

For instance, Ridley has the Tyrell easter egg in Prometheus and thinks Blade Runner and Alien could be linked - both of which are perceived to be ace movies?

QuoteYou and I both know that the franchises started off as two separate movies, though Predator 2 had suggested that it was all set in one single universe with the Alien skull seen in the trophy case. While I always saw the universes as one since Predator 2, a lot of other people had saw it as nothing more than a in-joke, an Easter egg. Similarly to how Freddy Krueger's glove was seen in Friday the 13th: Jason Goes to Hell.

They started out separate, but have been irrevocably merged, spanning multiple media formats and years of content.

And Freddy's glove ended up leading us to 'Freddy vs Jason' (which happens to be way, way better than it has any right to be, but that's neither here nor there :P ).

QuoteThen came PREDATORS and Prometheus which... well... seemed to split the franchises apart again.

And yet, FOX keeps trying to merge them back together. The upcoming Prometheus comics will outright tie into the upcoming Predator and AvP comics in some fashion according to Dark Horse, and according to NECA the character blurbs on the 'Predators' action figures were written by FOX themselves and include a ton of AvP (and EU) references.

Like seriously, FOX has been *really* consistent on this point for decades now. :P

QuoteIn the multiverse, there could be multiple universes where Predators and Aliens happen to share the same universe, infinite numbers these universes but there could also be universes were Aliens and Predators don't share the same universe. This allows for an AvP universe to exist, this also allows a strictly Predator universe to exist, and this allows a strictly Alien universe to exist. In fact-- the idea allows multiples of all three to exist and allows fans to choose which ones they want to follow!

So if fans get to choose what they want to follow, how is that different from "personal canon" as it works right now?

And the way you're describing it, damn near everything would have to potentially exist in more than one "universe" at once. 'Alien' could theoretically exist in an "Aliens-only" universe, and "AvP-only" universe, "Prometheus-only" universe, or any number of arbitrary permutations.
That's pretty distinctly different from, say, the Transformers method of "source [1] is a part of continuity [2], full stop".

QuoteAccording to Robert Rodriguez's words.. his movie completely ignores Predator 2, AvP and AvP-R.

Yeah and much of the A/P/AvP EU ignores other elements of the EU and act as standalone stories, but that doesn't mean any of it is part of a separate "universe" from anything else.

QuoteRodriguez, Antal and Ridley Scott mutually agree that their movies have nothing to do with the AvP films and don't follow the same timeline.

That's all well and good, but none of them own the franchises. All that means is in their own personal head-canon, they're separate from AvP. Just like how Ridley Scott thinks 'Alien' and 'Blade Runner' co-exist.

QuoteI don't see how the AvPGalaxy forum structure counts as a multiverse. Those are just categories to discuss what they are categorized as-- movies, games, comics and.. even merchandise.

Exactly, and that's exactly how discussion on this forum would continue if there was a "multiverse" idea, so what's the point?

QuoteFox just doesn't care about maintaining continuity whatsoever

People keep saying this as if it's some kind of objective fact. :P

QuoteBut most would like to see Fox address it officially to make things organized.

I'm not sure where you're getting "most" from. Is it from this poll? Because it's got 25 votes out of nearly 18,000 users on this site, and one of those votes is mine where I voted for the wrong thing because I mis-read it. :P
If anything, that says that "most" people don't care.

And why do you need FOX to make it "official", if you already believe it yourself anyway? More power to you, use the multiverse idea in your personal canon and go hog-wild. :)
Not to mention, like I said earlier in this post, even if it were made "official" it'd still be a huge mess. A bigger mess than what we've got right now, the way I see it.

Quote from: Russ on Feb 25, 2014, 11:19:36 AM

QuoteRodriguez, Antal and Ridley Scott mutually agree that their movies have nothing to do with the AvP films and don't follow the same timeline.

Perhaps because the perception is that those movies aren't very good and they're distancing themselves from them (Pred 2 inclusive, which wasn't very well received at the time).

For instance, Ridley has the Tyrell easter egg in Prometheus and thinks Blade Runner and Alien could be linked - both of which are perceived to be ace movies?

Bingo. :) It has nothing to do with "timelines" or "universes". It's straight-up "I think this sucks, so I'm not going to be beholden to it".

I guess I need you guys to clarify your interpretation of what a multiverse is.  I took it to mean separate lines of continuity that need not reference each other.  In my opinion, that already exists so I voted that there's already a multiverse.  But I guess you are talking about something like multiple realities within the same universe that could conceivably be connected and acknowledge each other?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
They started out separate, but have been irrevocably merged, spanning multiple media formats and years of content.

I am not arguing that, but some of the recent material out there I would consider apocryphal. Namely Aliens vs Predator: Evolution. You could argue that it had a simple storyline, but what were the Super Predators doing there, more importantly why were the ones from PREDATORS in that storyline when they are, you know... dead?

At least the Wolf Predator in AvP 2010 has a different design and is a different character from the character in Requiem.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
And yet, FOX keeps trying to merge them back together. The upcoming Prometheus comics will outright tie into the upcoming Predator and AvP comics in some fashion according to Dark Horse, and according to NECA the character blurbs on the 'Predators' action figures were written by FOX themselves and include a ton of AvP (and EU) references.

And it ends up being apocryphal. Again, I point out to AvP: Evolution. There are other games out there as well which I wouldn't even label as canon because of how bizarre and unusual, not to mention some of the characters that just don't belong in certain eras in the timeline but it's too. Capcom AvP being one of those titles, and I love that game.

And toys don't count. Not the Kenner toyline comics, and most certainly not the NECA backstories. Sure Fox may have written them, but do they have any bearing on overall canon? No, none whatsoever. Sure they draw inspiration but that's it.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
So if fans get to choose what they want to follow, how is that different from "personal canon" as it works right now?

And the way you're describing it, damn near everything would have to potentially exist in more than one "universe" at once. 'Alien' could theoretically exist in an "Aliens-only" universe, and "AvP-only" universe, "Prometheus-only" universe, or any number of arbitrary permutations.
That's pretty distinctly different from, say, the Transformers method of "source [1] is a part of continuity [2], full stop".

The difference is that it whatever a fan chooses to follow would be perfectly valid if they opted to choose a universe/continuity of their following without feeling burdened to see or have influences of works or continuity they don't want. Personal canon is fine and everything but it almost falls into the range of fanon.

As for everything to potentially exist in more than universe at the same time, that's what the concept of the multiverse suggests, even in the realm of real life science. I don't see what the problem is with that which you seem to suggest there is.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
Yeah and much of the A/P/AvP EU ignores other elements of the EU and act as standalone stories, but that doesn't mean any of it is part of a separate "universe" from anything else.

Those could simply be described as isolated incidents within the same universe and that's how I looked at it for a long, long time. I understand what you are trying to say but some of the stories happen to over-lap one another or just outright eschew established lore. Case in point number one: Alien vs. Predator: Hunter's Planet and Alien vs Predator: War-- both were written as sequels to Prey, both of them feature a number of the same characters, one of which has died two deaths. We both know that Machiko winds up killing Shorty (stabs him in the throat) and then she winds up killing him again. When I read this, I was confused and thought: "Wait.. how is he alive? He's dead!"

Sure, Fox has stamped Hunter's Prey as canon but Three World War ultimately overlaps it. And even without Three World War, Hunter's Prey is very confusing and can't happen in the same universe as either War or Three World War does.

As far as the Hish mythos goes written by Shirely, as much as I hated that storyline-- it would have been interesting to see Shirely try to explain that the Yautja and Hish were cousin races much like the Romulans and Vulcans. Had he actually manage to do that, I'm sure that it would've somehow fit in the old EU. Not sure how it would fit but.. it would've somehow.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
That's all well and good, but none of them own the franchises. All that means is in their own personal head-canon, they're separate from AvP. Just like how Ridley Scott thinks 'Alien' and 'Blade Runner' co-exist.

That is true, they don't own the franchises but they are allowed creative and narrative freedom to tell their stories and how they want them to be told. It's very clear that they had tried to separate the movies and their movies as well with the release of PREDATORS and Prometheus. Rodriguez's statement couldn't be anymore blatant, and as for Ridley Scott it's clear he didn't care about following established continuity.

A lot of other franchises happen to do this, and I've already labeled two of them. The Godzilla series happens to do this quite a lot. The Highlander franchise as well, especially with the divergent continuities between four movies and one television series. To a lesser extent as well, so does Robocop-- namely how the television series ignores the events of Robocop 3, then proceeds with the television mini-movie series Prime Directives. And don't even get me started on the cartoons.

If you ask me, I see the franchises a lot like the Godzilla franchise. Some movies completely ignore others and set themselves as the direct sequel to the original, or in Prometheus' case.. an indirect prequel. Infact, what the Godzilla movies have done maybe what has happened with the Alien-Predator movies. And you know what? It's generally accepted there is a multiverse even though the movies don't address it.. or even Toho to my knowledge. See G85 to see how this all happened.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 25, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
I'm not sure where you're getting "most" from. Is it from this poll? Because it's got 25 votes out of nearly 18,000 users on this site, and one of those votes is mine where I voted for the wrong thing because I mis-read it. :P
If anything, that says that "most" people don't care.

And why do you need FOX to make it "official", if you already believe it yourself anyway? More power to you, use the multiverse idea in your personal canon and go hog-wild. :)
Not to mention, like I said earlier in this post, even if it were made "official" it'd still be a huge mess. A bigger mess than what we've got right now, the way I see it.

When I mean most, I mean the people who have commented and voted on the poll. I am hosting the same poll over on my DA and some people do believe that there is a multiverse at work or that Fox should address that there is one. I am only talking about the numbers who have offered their opinion on this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

Who said anything about needing this to be official? All I'm saying is that it would be nice if Fox had mentioned or even hinted the idea of a multiverse. I agree with what SpreadEagleBeagle has said that it would help organize everything as somethings just can't and don't fit or even work in the overall canon/continuity. Do I believe it all happens in a multiverse? Absolutely, and I have contemplating writing out how it's a multiverse and posting it somewhere online.

Also.. How would it make it a huge mess if it ever was made official? Not that it will ever be addressed by Fox but if they do, how would it make it a mess? Give me some detailed examples of how you think it would do that. Enlighten me.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 25, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I guess I need you guys to clarify your interpretation of what a multiverse is.  I took it to mean separate lines of continuity that need not reference each other.  In my opinion, that already exists so I voted that there's already a multiverse.  But I guess you are talking about something like multiple realities within the same universe that could conceivably be connected and acknowledge each other?

When I was saying multiverse, I mean parallel universes that exist in one large universal scope or ring of sorts. And no, they don't need to acknowledge one another. I don't get why everyone assumes they have one universe suddenly stumble and acknowledge that there is one similar to the other. I mean universes crossing over doesn't have to happen.

Okay, my vote stands then.

Technically, an Alien multiverse exists even if one considers the films and EU one canon.  Superhero crossovers, for example, are unanimously agreed to be non canon, so by default must exist in their own seperate continuity.  Then there's the unrevised Aliens: Book 1 & 2 that exist in a continuity beginning with Alien and ending with Aliens: Earth War.

I'm just waiting for someone to convincingly tie together Prometheus, Apocalypse: Destroying Angels, Aliens: The Alien, and Original Sin. Those works are a perfect example of why a multiverse makes sense. The Hish were one thing, but I don't think anyone wants the Mala'kak and Loki popping up again.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 25, 2014, 05:55:49 PM
I'm just waiting for someone to convincingly tie together Prometheus, Apocalypse: Destroying Angels, Aliens: The Alien, and Original Sin. Those works are a perfect example of why a multiverse makes sense. The Hish were one thing, but I don't think anyone wants the Mala'kak and Loki popping up again.

I would think that it's safe to say that those particular EU stories maybe apocryphal, especially considering how the creatures in Destroying Angels were very different then the Engineers in Prometheus. I haven't read Original Sin and I've only briefly read Aliens: The Alien. And considering that the new comic writers aren't going to tie up loose ends in the old stories, tying Prometheus with those particular stories isn't going to happen. It's simply not.

As for the Hish.. as a Predator fan, I hated the Hish. The only thing which allowed me to tolerate those stories was the fact that Fox had decided to drop the Hish idea and go back with the Yautja concept. Even in universe articles by Weyland-Yutani in the AvP-R blu-ray features refers to them as Yautja. But then.. PREDATORS just had to come alone and introduce a new species which I thought was poppycock, balderdash, rubbish and the fact that Rodriguez said his movie was the direct sequel to the 1987 original in the same vein The Return of Godzilla is the direct sequel to the 1954 original. Of course, fans contest otherwise with Antal's word.. not that I take Antal's word as final, but now.. I actually kind of sort of wish that Shirely had bridged the Yautja and Hish as cousin species, it would've made PREDATORS tolerable to me. I still wouldn't like the movie but it'd be tolerable.

But I suppose the Hish stories could be an alternate universe thing.

Course I think the concept of a multiverse could work for the films too.. most especially the films.

QuoteFor instance, Ridley has the Tyrell easter egg in Prometheus and thinks Blade Runner and Alien could be linked - both of which are perceived to be ace movies?

Charles de Lauzirika wrote that for the Blu Ray as a joke.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 25, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
Okay, my vote stands then.

Technically, an Alien multiverse exists even if one considers the films and EU one canon.  Superhero crossovers, for example, are unanimously agreed to be non canon, so by default must exist in their own seperate continuity.  Then there's the unrevised Aliens: Book 1 & 2 that exist in a continuity beginning with Alien and ending with Aliens: Earth War.

QuoteI am not arguing that, but some of the recent material out there I would consider apocryphal. Namely Aliens vs Predator: Evolution. You could argue that it had a simple storyline, but what were the Super Predators doing there, more importantly why were the ones from PREDATORS in that storyline when they are, you know... dead?

At least the Wolf Predator in AvP 2010 has a different design and is a different character from the character in Requiem.

They're just repeated character designs, they're not meant to be the same individual. Just like how in 'Predators' there was the Classic Predator, who is identical to the one from 'Predator'. And throughout the EU, there's recycled Predator designs.

QuoteAnd toys don't count. Not the Kenner toyline comics, and most certainly not the NECA backstories. Sure Fox may have written them, but do they have any bearing on overall canon? No, none whatsoever.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

QuoteThe difference is that it whatever a fan chooses to follow would be perfectly valid if they opted to choose a universe/continuity of their following without feeling burdened to see or have influences of works or continuity they don't want.

But that's already the way it works with "personal canon", so I guess I'm not seeing what your point is?

QuoteSure, Fox has stamped Hunter's Prey as canon but Three World War ultimately overlaps it. And even without Three World War, Hunter's Prey is very confusing and can't happen in the same universe as either War or Three World War does.

Sure it can, it just requires a retcon of some kind. Shorty is the only snag in the two coexisting, otherwise Machiko's story plays out as Prey~>War~>Hunter's Planet~>TWW.

QuoteThat is true, they don't own the franchises but they are allowed creative and narrative freedom to tell their stories and how they want them to be told.

Yeah, but at the end of the day it's still FOX's sandbox, and they can retroactively do whatever they want.

I seem to recall there being a quote about Ridley Scott being supportive of the upcoming Prometheus comics expanding things, including the AvP/Predator stuff.

QuoteWho said anything about needing this to be official? All I'm saying is that it would be nice if Fox had mentioned or even hinted the idea of a multiverse.

You just said that you don't need it to be official, but that you'd want it to be official. :P

QuoteAlso.. How would it make it a huge mess if it ever was made official? Not that it will ever be addressed by Fox but if they do, how would it make it a mess? Give me some detailed examples of how you think it would do that. Enlighten me.

Because how would you determine what goes in one "universe"? Take 'Aliens: Alchemy', for example. Where would you put that? Is it in a "films-only" continuity? If not, why not?
Literally any and all sources, I could argue for them to be included in the same continuity (and I've done so for years).
It would make it a mess because if disagreements between people saying "oh I don't want this to be part of ________ continuity", which is literally exactly how things are now. I fail to see how a multiverse would change (let alone improve) anything.

QuoteWhen I was saying multiverse, I mean parallel universes that exist in one large universal scope or ring of sorts. And no, they don't need to acknowledge one another. I don't get why everyone assumes they have one universe suddenly stumble and acknowledge that there is one similar to the other. I mean universes crossing over doesn't have to happen.

But they would inherently overlap, they'd have to since they have common points of intersection. AvP2010 references both 'AvP' and the Alien movies. 'AvP: Booty' references 'Aliens: Labyrinth'. 'AvP: TWW' references 'Aliens: More Than Human' (which references the Earth Hive trilogy) and 'Predator: Prey to the Heavens'. What determines a "separate universe", is it where it doesn't reference something else? Is 'Aliens: Reapers' in its own little universe since it doesn't reference anything else and nothing references it?

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 25, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
Okay, my vote stands then.

Technically, an Alien multiverse exists even if one considers the films and EU one canon.  Superhero crossovers, for example, are unanimously agreed to be non canon, so by default must exist in their own seperate continuity.

Technically, yes, kind of. Alternately, they can be seen as "non continuity", in that they don't even factor into the equation. It's not like every piece of fiction ever created is a part of the same "multiverse". Shakespeare's 'Macbeath' is not a side-universe to Star Trek. The cameos of Star Wars ships in 'Firefly' doesn't mean Star Wars is suddenly a multiverse and that Firefly is connected to it. The entirety of the Batman franchise is not a side-universe of the Alien franchise just because Batman fought Aliens a couple times.

Quote from: Kelgaard on Feb 25, 2014, 05:24:43 PMThen there's the unrevised Aliens: Book 1 & 2 that exist in a continuity beginning with Alien and ending with Aliens: Earth War.

Alternately, I see it as the later versions retconning the earlier ones out of existence.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 25, 2014, 05:55:49 PM
I'm just waiting for someone to convincingly tie together Prometheus, Apocalypse: Destroying Angels, Aliens: The Alien, and Original Sin. Those works are a perfect example of why a multiverse makes sense. The Hish were one thing, but I don't think anyone wants the Mala'kak and Loki popping up again.

That's pretty easy - the Loki are a separate race, and the Mala'kak and space jockeys are the same thing, and Engineers and Space Jockeys are difference species. There was a whole thread devoted to the idea in the Prometheus subforum, but I could elaborate on it here if you're interested I guess. :)

QuoteAnd considering that the new comic writers aren't going to tie up loose ends in the old stories, tying Prometheus with those particular stories isn't going to happen. It's simply not.

We'll have to wait and see. :) The authors of the DH Press novels said the exact same thing regarding "continuity" with the old stories, and then they ended up referencing them and not contradicting them, too. :P

I would love to hear that eleaboration on the Mala'kak!

Quote from: Ultramorph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:55:33 AM
I would love to hear that eleaboration on the Mala'kak!

I'll have to re-read Original Sin as it's been years since I've read it (and I finally have my copy handy again), but I got the vibe that the Mala'kak were basically manipulative space-assholes who were largely untrustworthy but were really self-important. That jives with the portrayal in 'Aliens: The Alien' where the Space Jockey ends up being hostile towards humans and just wants to conquer Earth. Their depiction in Apocalypse is compatible with this since what we see of the Space Jockeys is largely the partial interpretations of a crazy person reading heiroglyphs that the Space Jockeys wrote about themselves (so of course they're going to put themselves in a good light).

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
At least the Wolf Predator in AvP 2010 has a different design and is a different character from the character in Requiem.

They're just repeated character designs, they're not meant to be the same individual. Just like how in 'Predators' there was the Classic Predator, who is identical to the one from 'Predator'. And throughout the EU, there's recycled Predator designs.
[/quote]

I would think that's pretty obvious.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would disagree with you. I don't know anyone else aside from you who considers the toys to have any bearing whatsoever in the canon. And I also know you consider Big Red, a fanon character, to be canon just because NECA produced a toy of him. And I am assuming you do consider the Operation Aliens comics as canon too. I actually have to ask you this but what DON'T you consider canon, crossovers and fanon not withstanding?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
But that's already the way it works with "personal canon", so I guess I'm not seeing what your point is?

I suppose this is another thing we'll have to disagree on.. I just feel that a multiverse would work really well for the franchise and keep it better organized.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
Sure it can, it just requires a retcon of some kind. Shorty is the only snag in the two coexisting, otherwise Machiko's story plays out as Prey~>War~>Hunter's Planet~>TWW.

I am not particularly fond of fan retcons as that falls under the realm of fanon. Now unless Machiko's strike had missed a major artery and the brain stem for the neck stab, I really do not see how Shorty would survive something like that at all whatsoever. Hunter's Planet was written before the novel adaptation of War, so there's a snag there going on. Three World War seems to continue after War, and doesn't even really acknowledge Hunter's Planet. If anything it contradicts it, especially with how Machiko seems to have hooked up with Ellis, rather than Ned Sanchez.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
Yeah, but at the end of the day it's still FOX's sandbox, and they can retroactively do whatever they want.

I seem to recall there being a quote about Ridley Scott being supportive of the upcoming Prometheus comics expanding things, including the AvP/Predator stuff.

Sure, Fox has full access to their sandbox but do they do a good job with their retcons? Not necessarily, no. A primary case would be the retcon of Hicks, Newt and Ripley being re-written to Wilkes, Billie and Synthetic Ripley. And then there is the whole Big Deletion issue which many have a problem with. Personally, I have no problem with the Big Deletion device.

As for Ridley Scott being supportive of the comics.. I'm sure he really doesn't care too much as long as it doesn't happen in the world which he is creating. We both know Ridley Scott doesn't like Predators in his Alien or Prometheus, and I don't think he would care enough to acknowledge the comics.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
You just said that you don't need it to be official, but that you'd want it to be official. :P

No, you were implying that I NEEDED this idea to be official. I never said that. I only said that it would be nice if Fox had addressed the idea of a multiverse already at work. Also, I never said that I wanted it either.. Just said that it'd be nice.  8)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
Because how would you determine what goes in one "universe"? Take 'Aliens: Alchemy', for example. Where would you put that? Is it in a "films-only" continuity? If not, why not?
Literally any and all sources, I could argue for them to be included in the same continuity (and I've done so for years).
It would make it a mess because if disagreements between people saying "oh I don't want this to be part of ________ continuity", which is literally exactly how things are now. I fail to see how a multiverse would change (let alone improve) anything.

Good question. An example of this would be the Godzilla series. A large bulk of the movies follows a continuity which all harkens back to the 1954 original but some of them have a different timeline than others. For example, Godzilla x MechaGodzilla and Tokyo SOS share a continuity with the 1954 Godzilla and the 1961 Mothra movie. GMK also goes back to the 1954 Godzilla and the 1998 Tristar Godzilla (they mention the events of NYC 1998 and say that a creature was mistaken for Godzilla by the Americans). It all depends on the narrative of the movies, and I know you don't like this, but perhaps even Word of God by the writers, directors and even producers. I've been arguing for a long time that PREDATORS is in the similar vein to what Godzilla 1985 is to the original movie, while ignoring the Showa era films and it's considered it's own universe which shares the same reality with the aforementioned titles while ignoring others completely as if they didn't happen.. in PREDATORS case, it ignores Predator 2 to AvP-R, as well as the Alien films. In Prometheus' case, it ignores the AvP films as well as Predator films.

The argument of the idea which I am visualizing is exactly how either the Highlander franchise or the Godzilla franchise goes. But I am willing to be that either you aren't seeing what I am visualizing or simply will not agree.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
That's pretty easy - the Loki are a separate race, and the Mala'kak and space jockeys are the same thing, and Engineers and Space Jockeys are difference species. There was a whole thread devoted to the idea in the Prometheus subforum, but I could elaborate on it here if you're interested I guess. :)

I am not familiar with the Loki but are they an interpretation of the Engineers and which story did they come from?

Also, there is nothing in the Prometheus or even Alien film that the corpse we see on LV-426 is a different creature altogether from the creature which we saw on LV-223.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
We'll have to wait and see. :) The authors of the DH Press novels said the exact same thing regarding "continuity" with the old stories, and then they ended up referencing them and not contradicting them, too. :P

I guess we'll have to wait and see now.. won't we?

QuoteI would think that's pretty obvious.

So what was your point, then?

QuoteI actually have to ask you this but what DON'T you consider canon, crossovers and fanon not withstanding?

Very little. There's things I consider "canon, with caveats", like the 'Alien 3' videogames for SNES or Sega Genesis, or the 'Aliens' arcade game, where they're a depiction of events that aren't necessarily meant to be taken literally, or are "inaccurate". The Operation Aliens comics I see as open for interpretation and aren't meant to be taken literally. Perhaps they're just in-universe propaganda meant for children (which is what they are in real life, too :P), or perhaps the characters are androids, etc.

QuoteIf anything it contradicts it, especially with how Machiko seems to have hooked up with Ellis, rather than Ned Sanchez.

That's hardly a contradiction. :P Relationships change, sometimes they don't work out. Like, that's SUPER easy to overlook unless you're just nitpicking for "contradictions".

QuoteAs for Ridley Scott being supportive of the comics.. I'm sure he really doesn't care too much as long as it doesn't happen in the world which he is creating. We both know Ridley Scott doesn't like Predators in his Alien or Prometheus, and I don't think he would care enough to acknowledge the comics.

While I don't disagree that at the end of the day he only really cares about his story and the best way to tell it, it's still interesting that he's given these comics his "blessing".

QuoteAlso, I never said that I wanted it either.. Just said that it'd be nice.

What's the difference? :P

Quote
The argument of the idea which I am visualizing is exactly how either the Highlander franchise or the Godzilla franchise goes. But I am willing to be that either you aren't seeing what I am visualizing or simply will not agree.

I understand what you mean, and other franchises have done it, too - 'Freddy vs Jason' ignores 'Jason X', 'Halloween 3' isn't acknowledged by anything else in the Halloween series, the James Bond series got a reboot with Casino Royale (although Skyfall's inclusion of the gadget-laden DB5 is a pretty strong acknowledgement of the older Bond movies), etc.

I'm not outright against the idea in all cases, I just don't like it with AvP at all. I'm very happy with everything being in one continuity and seeing how everything fits together and evolves over time. It's pretty much the only sci-fi franchise who's timeline starts in the present day (if not far earlier) and progresses into centuries in the future. I think that's great, I like it.
Multiverse stuff with Transformers? Thumbs up, I'm all for it.

QuoteI am not familiar with the Loki but are they an interpretation of the Engineers and which story did they come from?

They were some advanced race mentioned in Steel Egg, if I remember right. I don't believe they were described as being anything like the Space Jockeys other than "advanced, presumably long-dead".

QuoteAlso, there is nothing in the Prometheus or even Alien film that the corpse we see on LV-426 is a different creature altogether from the creature which we saw on LV-223.

Well except for the proportions and aesthetics (and overall size - the Space Jockey is literally twice as big as the Engineer) being drastically different, the one in 'Prometheus' being a guy in the suit, and the one in 'Alien' being a calcified skeleton. Even Ridley Scott acknowledges the difference in the 'Prometheus' art book.
There's a huge window for interpretation regarding the Engineers and the Space Jockeys, and frankly it makes them more thematically interesting if they are separate things (as well as making the story more internally consistent thematically).

Just for the notice RakaiThwei,  I think you're very sober-minded and pragmatic, and really have had a positive impact on the endless bs canon debates on these forums. You made me reconsider things and warm up to the idea of a multiverse (I used to be strictly the original movies only - everything else is non-existent), which at least to me sounds like the ultimate/perfect option and compromise, and I can't see why anyone would ever be opposed to it since it is a win-win situation for all. I'm surprised FUX hasn't thought about it already instead of messing things up even more. It's almost like they're trolling us on purpose.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 26, 2014, 05:04:47 PM
Just for the notice RakaiThwei,  I think you're very sober-minded and pragmatic, and really have had a positive impact on the endless bs canon debates on these forums. You made me reconsider things and warm up to the idea of a multiverse (I used to be strictly the original movies only - everything else is non-existent), which at least to me sounds like the ultimate/perfect option and compromise, and I can't see why anyone would ever be opposed to it since it is a win-win situation for all.

Thank you for the comments regarding my arguments. There used to be a time where I actually would try and yell out my views and it wouldn't be taken seriously. I'd like to think I've matured over the years and learned to take everything in stride, and present my views and opinions in a polite and calm minded fashion. I also use whatever evidence I have to back up my argument. In this case, with the idea of a multiverse, there are franchises which have inconsistent continuities but they are widely accepted as being part of a multiverse and sometimes officially addressed as such.

We know that Fox pretty much acknowledges everything to be canon but not a lot of it seems to go together. It's like a puzzle packed with other puzzles that are all jumbled in one box. You have to organize the pieces and figure out what fits where and how it fits in. That is the simplest way I can put everything.

The idea of a multiverse makes everything fit in somewhere. Then you find out that you have many different completed puzzles, each of them coming together to form a different picture. You may have a universe which only has the Alien movies into account but none of the EU, you may have a universe which has the Alien movies with some of the EU, you may have a universe with that features both the first two Predator movies, the AvP movies, and the Alien movies without the EU.. etc, etc.. You know where I'm going with this right? And it'd all be part of a larger canon that is a multiverse.

Course some would argue that's what perosnal canon is but I argue that personal canon falls in the realm of fanon.

I do acknowledge that a lot of fans out there have their own way of following the franchises. Some follow only the movies, but even if it just is restricted to the movies.. some of the pieces STILL don't fit together. See my arguments which mention the Godzilla and Highlander franchises to see what I mean.

I have considered on writing out how a multiverse would function, and giving each designated world either a numerical category or title category. But all of that would fall under fanon and be a personal canon. Sure, it'd use canonical material and even mention how the timelines diverge but then again, the Godzilla franchise did it already with the Showa, Heisei and Millennium era films til it has become a widely accepted idea by the fandom as canon. I can't say the same for the Alien-Predator fandom.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 26, 2014, 05:04:47 PM
I'm surprised FUX hasn't thought about it already instead of messing things up even more. It's almost like they're trolling us on purpose.

According to Xenomrph and the quotes which he has posted up, according to Dark Horse editors and writers-- Fox is pretty flexible with the canon and they'll approve almost anything as long as it stays true to the Alien-Predator bible which they keep on at hand. But apparently, Fox doesn't let their licensees look at their Alien-Predator bible. And you have a lot of conflicting stories in the expanded universe such as Hunter's Planet, the Hish mythos, Destroying Angels.. etc, etc, etc..

I don't think Fox is really too caring about maintaining a strict continuity like LucasArts did and they are just more concerned about pumping out more material and merchandising to pander to the fans in order to make this: $$$. Money. Moolah. Dinero. Benjamin's Clams.

Trolling us on purpose? I'm not so sure about that but I think that they're just pandering to make money. Fox is a corporation and what corporation doesn't want to make money?

It'd be nice if they actually decided to implement a multiverse.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 26, 2014, 06:29:29 PM
We know that Fox pretty much acknowledges everything to be canon but not a lot of it seems to go together. It's like a puzzle packed with other puzzles that are all jumbled in one box.

Spot on.

QuoteThe idea of a multiverse makes everything fit in somewhere. Then you find out that you have many different completed puzzles, each of them coming together to form a different picture. You may have a universe which only has the Alien movies into account but none of the EU, you may have a universe which has the Alien movies with some of the EU, you may have a universe with that features both the first two Predator movies, the AvP movies, and the Alien movies without the EU.. etc, etc.. You know where I'm going with this right? And it'd all be part of a larger canon that is a multiverse.

The perfect fit / one size fits all.

QuoteCourse some would argue that's what perosnal canon is but I argue that personal canon falls in the realm of fanon.

I agree. Two different things. Multiverse canon is all the actual/available source materiel available out there, be it movies, comics, games etc. The way we personally interpret it, pick & choose, and make it  'fit' together in a way that more or less please us, is fanon, or "personal canon" as some people like to call it. In other words our personal explanations and narratives that bridge all the  inconsistency gaps and contradictions within the 'canon' is more or less fanon rather than canon. At least that is how I see it. With that said there is a LOT of room for fanon/personal canon here, especially if you want to lump everything A/P/AvP/Prom together.

This is quite interesting to me and in the end quite ironic when you think about it. FUX says that EVERYTHING is canon but leave it up to fanon & "personal canon" (which is us, the fans) to even make it work. A multiverse would solve all of that.

QuoteI do acknowledge that a lot of fans out there have their own way of following the franchises. Some follow only the movies, but even if it just is restricted to the movies.. some of the pieces STILL don't fit together. See my arguments which mention the Godzilla and Highlander franchises to see what I mean.

I have considered on writing out how a multiverse would function, and giving each designated world either a numerical category or title category. But all of that would fall under fanon and be a personal canon. Sure, it'd use canonical material and even mention how the timelines diverge but then again, the Godzilla franchise did it already with the Showa, Heisei and Millennium era films til it has become a widely accepted idea by the fandom as canon. I can't say the same for the Alien-Predator fandom.

You should write out how it works.

QuoteAccording to Xenomrph and the quotes which he has posted up, according to Dark Horse editors and writers-- Fox is pretty flexible with the canon and they'll approve almost anything as long as it stays true to the Alien-Predator bible which they keep on at hand. But apparently, Fox doesn't let their licensees look at their Alien-Predator bible. And you have a lot of conflicting stories in the expanded universe such as Hunter's Planet, the Hish mythos, Destroying Angels.. etc, etc, etc..

I don't think Fox is really too caring about maintaining a strict continuity like LucasArts did and they are just more concerned about pumping out more material and merchandising to pander to the fans in order to make this: $$$. Money. Moolah. Dinero. Benjamin's Clams.

Trolling us on purpose? I'm not so sure about that but I think that they're just pandering to make money. Fox is a corporation and what corporation doesn't want to make money?

It'd be nice if they actually decided to implement a multi verse.

Of course it's all about the money. It's always about the money. Even so, there most be plenty of fellow geeks working there on those franchises. They could easily implement the whole multiverse thing without having to change around much. I don't see why it would stand in the way of profit.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 26, 2014, 08:53:38 PM
I agree. Two different things. Multiverse canon is all the actual/available source materiel available out there, be it movies, comics, games etc. The way we personally interpret it, pick & choose, and make it  'fit' together in a way that more or less please us, is fanon, or "personal canon" as some people like to call it. In other words our personal explanations and narratives that bridge all the  inconsistency gaps and contradictions within the 'canon' is more akin to fanon than canon. At least that is how I see it. With that said there is a LOT of room for fanon/personal canon here, especially if you want to lump everything A/P/AvP/Prom together.

I think that it's great that fans are taking the time to make up their own retcons for what they deem as their personal canon. But even as painstaking efforts they might be, it's still nothing but fanon to a certain extent. Sure, it's using canon sources but the fan retcons are just various ways to attempt to fix somethings which do not fit. So I agree with this statement.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 26, 2014, 08:53:38 PM
You should write out how it works.

It's something I have considered but I would also have to figure out how to apply the Multiverse theory to the Alien-Predator canon. There is no question that the timelines diverge and both the Word of God trope, as well as the Weyland Corp timeline suggest that there is some divergence going on. In the Alien-Predator franchise, time travel does not exist-- so it's not like the Terminator timelines which serve as paradoxes. So it would have to be looked at quite similarly to either the Highlander franchise and how continuity is maintained for the Highlander Movie Universe, and the Highlander Series Universe.. or.. like the Godzilla franchise.

Ironically, someone did do that for the Godzilla franchise-- which of course had sparked this entire discussion of a potential Alien-Predator multiverse. You can check it out here: http://www.historyvortex.org/GodzillaTimeline.html (http://www.historyvortex.org/GodzillaTimeline.html)

As for writing it, I would like to. But I'm also very lazy. I have an idea on how it works in my head but putting it down on paper on the other hand. There already is an Alien-Predator timeline, but everyone assumes that they are a single continuity and some argue that it is but from how I see it, and from the sources I've taken into consideration, it isn't.

QuoteI can't see why anyone would ever be opposed to it since it is a win-win situation for all.

Except that it isn't, as discussed. :P

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Feb 26, 2014, 09:20:51 PM
I think that it's great that fans are taking the time to make up their own retcons for what they deem as their personal canon. But even as painstaking efforts they might be, it's still nothing but fanon to a certain extent. Sure, it's using canon sources but the fan retcons are just various ways to attempt to fix somethings which do not fit. So I agree with this statement.

I think we're on the same page on this one as well.

QuoteIt's something I have considered but I would also have to figure out how to apply the Multiverse theory to the Alien-Predator canon. There is no question that the timelines diverge and both the Word of God trope, as well as the Weyland Corp timeline suggest that there is some divergence going on. In the Alien-Predator franchise, time travel does not exist-- so it's not like the Terminator timelines which serve as paradoxes. So it would have to be looked at quite similarly to either the Highlander franchise and how continuity is maintained for the Highlander Movie Universe, and the Highlander Series Universe.. or.. like the Godzilla franchise.

Ironically, someone did do that for the Godzilla franchise-- which of course had sparked this entire discussion of a potential Alien-Predator multiverse. You can check it out here: http://www.historyvortex.org/GodzillaTimeline.html (http://www.historyvortex.org/GodzillaTimeline.html)

As for writing it, I would like to. But I'm also very lazy. I have an idea on how it works in my head but putting it down on paper on the other hand. There already is an Alien-Predator timeline, but everyone assumes that they are a single continuity and some argue that it is but from how I see it, and from the sources I've taken into consideration, it isn't.

I'm lazy too. But still, you're good at explaining the concept of multiverse.

Raka, I saw you didn't respond to my earlier post (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1866178#msg1866178).

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 27, 2014, 02:06:32 AM
Raka, I saw you didn't respond to my earlier post (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1866178#msg1866178).

I will get to that. Right now, I just don't feel like it.

But I will get to it. Be patient please.

No worries :)

So sorry for the late response, but I was extremely tired last night and I couldn't muster much of anything to type. So I figure I had responded to this later, than never. I hope you can forgive me for such a late response. But here we go!

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
So what was your point, then?

Even if the character renders and models are often over used, they seemed more like a homage to fan favorite character rather than actually be characters on their own. I wouldn't even really qualify them as actual characters like say Prince, Dark or even Scarface. And even if you want to overlook the fact that these are homage characters, there is the plot of the ioS game-- or lack of an actual plot to begin with. Sure it incorporates some elements of PREDATORS and even Prometheus (Weyland Corp logo makes cameos) but it doesn't even really so much as try to tie in those films in a narrative text, instead choosing to toss in elements for fan service.

And then there is the PREDATORS IoS game.. that little blurb about humans not being from Earth, and Earth originally being a game preserve planet.. What? Just.. what?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
Very little. There's things I consider "canon, with caveats", like the 'Alien 3' videogames for SNES or Sega Genesis, or the 'Aliens' arcade game, where they're a depiction of events that aren't necessarily meant to be taken literally, or are "inaccurate". The Operation Aliens comics I see as open for interpretation and aren't meant to be taken literally. Perhaps they're just in-universe propaganda meant for children (which is what they are in real life, too :P), or perhaps the characters are androids, etc.

And this is where we fall into the realm of personal canon. You are entitled and free to choose what you want to incorporate and even follow but in my opinion some of these things don't really even adhere too well to some other things. I mean I wouldn't even consider some video game titles to be canon, like you know, Alien Trilogy-- and even that one had something of a different but established storyline, although adapted from the films but with some major adjustments to form it's own storyline.

The Kenner comics.. I am actually flabbergasted and shocked that anyone would consider them canon. Also, there is nothing in any of the media formats to suggest that the Operation Aliens comics are a propaganda program meant for children in the Alien-Predator franchise (although I do agree in real life that it was meant for kids). Also there is no mention of them being androids or mention of the events or characters in the rest of the expanded universe. Had the Operation Aliens cartoon actually made it on the airwaves, we'd definitely have a multiverse as the events of 2179 would've differed somewhat-- such as the Marines surviving the events of Acheron.. with Dietrich, Wierzbowski, Crowe, Frost, Gorman and Burke being likely the only casualties.

I mean there are a couple of cases of R Rated franchises getting Saturday morning cartoons.. The Sunbow/Marvel Robocop cartoon followed the events of the first movie up to a certain point, retconning Boddicker's death of course since he makes an appearance in the last episode I believe.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
That's hardly a contradiction. :P Relationships change, sometimes they don't work out. Like, that's SUPER easy to overlook unless you're just nitpicking for "contradictions".

Okay, I'll give you that one. Relationships do change, that much is true.. but it still doesn't explain Shorty re-appearing in what could've been a later time, and unless he had somehow survived a stab to the throat though that seems unlikely-- I don't see how he could've re-appeared in the storyline of Hunter's Planet. And then there is Atilla. Where is Atilla in Three World War? Nowhere to be found whatsoever. I don't even think the creative writing team even knows of Hunter's Planet, let alone Atilla.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
While I don't disagree that at the end of the day he only really cares about his story and the best way to tell it, it's still interesting that he's given these comics his "blessing".

It doesn't mean that he will adhere to them, and it also doesn't mean that he views the comics and the movies as being in the same world. I don't even think he knows their status in canon, let alone even care enough to read them.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
I'm not outright against the idea in all cases, I just don't like it with AvP at all. I'm very happy with everything being in one continuity and seeing how everything fits together and evolves over time. It's pretty much the only sci-fi franchise who's timeline starts in the present day (if not far earlier) and progresses into centuries in the future. I think that's great, I like it.
Multiverse stuff with Transformers? Thumbs up, I'm all for it.

So what you're saying is that in every other franchise, they are allowed to have a multiverse but AvP isn't? If anything the concept of a multiverse allows an infinite of possibilities to happen, and even for a world where it's a single continuity to exist in it's own little corner of the multiverse. Of course that world would officially require some serious retconning for it to make it coherent if you seriously, and I mean seriously wanted AvP to exist with PREDATORS and Prometheus-- because Rodriguez and Scott outright wanted those two particular movies to be as far away from the AvP movies as much as possible. You'd have to either.. re-write the events of AvP where instead of Weyland Industries, it's some other major American conglomerate or somehow find a good way of explaining how Charles Bishop Weyland and Peter Weyland have some sort of connection. Prometheus sort of goes out of its way to not form any connections whatsoever, so the former would have to take action.

If you think that the idea of a multiverse threatens your personal canon, it doesn't.. It simply allows your vision to be official, along with everyone else's. Personal canon would sort of become official canon with the introduction of a multiverse.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
Well except for the proportions and aesthetics (and overall size - the Space Jockey is literally twice as big as the Engineer) being drastically different, the one in 'Prometheus' being a guy in the suit, and the one in 'Alien' being a calcified skeleton. Even Ridley Scott acknowledges the difference in the 'Prometheus' art book.
There's a huge window for interpretation regarding the Engineers and the Space Jockeys, and frankly it makes them more thematically interesting if they are separate things (as well as making the story more internally consistent thematically).

I would think that the aesthetics are simply artistic interpretations of the similar entities. We know that H.R. Giger had sculpted the original creature in the first Alien movie, but in Prometheus we had another artist altogether. Different artists, different styles, one is simply trying to channel Giger and emulate what he had sculpted in the original Alien.

It's simply hard for me to buy that the creature seen in the original Alien is a different but all too similar creature seen in the one in Prometheus. If you ask me, they're members of the same race and factually speaking, they are.

QuoteAnd even if you want to overlook the fact that these are homage characters, there is the plot of the ioS game-- or lack of an actual plot to begin with. Sure it incorporates some elements of PREDATORS and even Prometheus (Weyland Corp logo makes cameos) but it doesn't even really so much as try to tie in those films in a narrative text, instead choosing to toss in elements for fan service.

But there is a plot, and it even makes sense. :P

QuoteAlso, there is nothing in any of the media formats to suggest that the Operation Aliens comics are a propaganda program meant for children in the Alien-Predator franchise (although I do agree in real life that it was meant for kids). Also there is no mention of them being androids or mention of the events or characters in the rest of the expanded universe.

It can be inferred that they're androids, since they never suffer any losses, never get facehugged (and rarely get captured), and are generally hyper-competent above and beyond what any normal human could do.
Of course it's those same attributes that one could also use to argue that it's propaganda, too. There's narrator text in one of the middle comics (#7 or something) that outright tells kids to continue the battle in their imagination.

But to be completely clear, I said I consider them "canon, with caveats". I don't think the stories literally happened as presented (and if it's just propaganda fiction, they certainly didn't), but I'm willing to accept that certain things in them likely have some basis in "fact" within the fictional universe - the ATAX unit, some of the vehicles used, some of the Alien hybrids, the planets named, etc.

QuoteAnd then there is Atilla. Where is Atilla in Three World War? Nowhere to be found whatsoever.

I don't see that as a contradiction for the same reason that the relationships thing isn't a contradiction.

QuoteIt doesn't mean that he will adhere to them, and it also doesn't mean that he views the comics and the movies as being in the same world. I don't even think he knows their status in canon, let alone even care enough to read them

Not going to disagree with any of that.

QuoteSo what you're saying is that in every other franchise, they are allowed to have a multiverse but AvP isn't?

That's not what I'm saying at all.
Some franchises I'm okay with a multiverse. AvP is not among them. Star Wars would be another, for example.

QuoteIf anything the concept of a multiverse allows an infinite of possibilities to happen, and even for a world where it's a single continuity to exist in it's own little corner of the multiverse.

How is that different from how things are now, where fans can decide what they want to accept/reject?

Quotebecause Rodriguez and Scott outright wanted those two particular movies to be as far away from the AvP movies as much as possible.

Their word means literally nothing when "canon" is concerned, just sayin'. At best, their wishes and opinions would be just as "fanon" as any fan's.

QuoteIt simply allows your vision to be official, along with everyone else's.

Why do you care if your vision is "official"? Does it make a difference?

QuotePersonal canon would sort of become official canon with the introduction of a multiverse.

And that's where it gets silly for me. If there's an infinite number of options, how are any of them "official"? How is it any different from how things are now?

Transformers is a multiverse, but there's still "official" standing on where things fall within that multiverse. There's an explicit structure of what "universes" contain what materials, and fan interpretations are "fanon", straight up.

If "every interpretation" of AvP is suddenly "official", how does that work for, say, people who choose to ignore 'Alien3' or 'Alien Resurrection'? They're official sources, and there's no "official" multiverse where the timeline ends at 'Aliens'. If you're choosing to ignore those movies, that's fanon and there's absolutely nothing "official" about it.

QuoteI would think that the aesthetics are simply artistic interpretations of the similar entities. We know that H.R. Giger had sculpted the original creature in the first Alien movie, but in Prometheus we had another artist altogether. Different artists, different styles, one is simply trying to channel Giger and emulate what he had sculpted in the original Alien.

I strongly disagree - if Ridley Scott had wanted it to look just like Giger's design, he could have - there are lots of artists capable of copying Giger's style very, very closely (some of whom have worked on the comics and video games), and he made a deliberate choice not to. I don't think Ridley did that by accident.

Never mind that the proportions and sizes are radically different. Someone in the Prometheus subforum did a comparison scale image, the Space Jockey is literally twice the size of the Engineer.

QuoteIt's simply hard for me to buy that the creature seen in the original Alien is a different but all too similar creature seen in the one in Prometheus.

Why not? It's thematically appropriate for them to be different. Perhaps the Space Jockeys created the Engineers, and the Engineers chose to emulate their "gods" (hence the space suits and ship designs, and why they're not accurate to 'Alien'), and then become "gods" themselves when they create humans, and then humans become "gods" when they create lifelike androids. The Engineers would just be another link in the repeating chain of creations usurping their creators.

Not to mention, the movie is chock-full of other "similar but not the same" thematics - the Deacon is similar to a Xenomorph, but it's not the same. David is similar to a human, but he's not a human. Humans are similar to Engineers, but not the same. Why does the Engineer have to be the same as the Space Jockey, especially in light of the obvious physical differences between the two?

Quotefactually speaking, they are.

Not so - nothing in Prometheus actually says they're the same, it's just one possible interpretation. :)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
But there is a plot, and it even makes sense. :P

What little next to no plot there is.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
It can be inferred that they're androids, since they never suffer any losses, never get facehugged (and rarely get captured), and are generally hyper-competent above and beyond what any normal human could do.
Of course it's those same attributes that one could also use to argue that it's propaganda, too. There's narrator text in one of the middle comics (#7 or something) that outright tells kids to continue the battle in their imagination.

But to be completely clear, I said I consider them "canon, with caveats". I don't think the stories literally happened as presented (and if it's just propaganda fiction, they certainly didn't), but I'm willing to accept that certain things in them likely have some basis in "fact" within the fictional universe - the ATAX unit, some of the vehicles used, some of the Alien hybrids, the planets named, etc.

I don't think that they are meant to be androids, or implied or inferred. The reason why they never suffer any losses is because the Operation Aliens comics were geared towards kids. What parent would want to let their children read a comic where a character has an alien parasite which ends up breaking through his rib cage in a visceral display of gore and blood? No good parent, that's for sure. As for what the Marines were capable of doing in the comics, I believe that some of them had cybernetic enhancements-- I think Apone being one of them since he had a bionic arm or something. And as for the narrator text, of course it's going to tell kids to continue the battle in their imagination-- they want them to play with the toys, and then buy more for the next comic. That's where the Snake Alien and other comics come in-- and then they abruptly end with the Rhino Alien comics, I believe.

Canon with caveats.. or canon with limitations. It's great that you have this head-canon where this all fits in but it's just so bizarre that anyone could find a way for it to fit in. And had Operation Aliens actually made it to the airwaves, I'm more than certain that the characters wouldn't be androids or even so much as actors portraying the Sulaco marines in propaganda fiction for children literally in the Alien-Predator franchise but rather a world of itself which is based off the first two Alien films with some liberties in continuity and canon. Again, see the Marvel/Sunbow Robocop cartoon to see what I mean. The same concept would've been done for Operation Aliens had it actually made it in television.

Let me say Operation Aliens sounds ridiculous. Then again, the whole concept of a watered down Saturday morning cartoon based off a franchise which is about extraterrestrial rape is ridiculous in itself. Who would take it seriously?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
Not going to disagree with any of that.

Okay then.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
That's not what I'm saying at all.
Some franchises I'm okay with a multiverse. AvP is not among them. Star Wars would be another, for example.

You sure, cause it sounds like that's what you're saying? I mean it's okay if you don't like the idea of an Alien-Predator multiverse but you're definitely coming across off that way as if to say a multiverse is either not welcome or allowed.

As for Star Wars having a multiverse... Well, ORIGINALLY prior to Disney's purchase, George Lucas had viewed the films and the Star Wars EU as separate universes. He's even explicitly mentioned so in a Star Log magazine interview. The statement came from the guy who CREATED Star Wars, and he never saw them as part of the films. But that doesn't matter now because Disney's taking the franchise to the chopping block and deciding what's canon and what isn't.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
How is that different from how things are now, where fans can decide what they want to accept/reject?

Because some fans feel as if certain entries within the franchises are impeding on the continuities which they want to follow. A multiverse would organize everything and simply move certain things to a different area in the multiverse. As an AvP fan, I most certaintly don't want Rodriguez's PREDATORS leaking into that continuity. As for Alien fans, I'm sure a lot of them out there don't want either Predator or AvP leaking into their favorite series respective continuity. Same thing for some Predator fans.

Everything would be categorized. Everything would fit in it's own place. Things would be a whole lot more organized.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
Their word means literally nothing when "canon" is concerned, just sayin'. At best, their wishes and opinions would be just as "fanon" as any fan's.

I know you disagree with Word of God and Authorial Intent. So I am not going to comment on that, but to say that their word is fanon as any other fans? Balderdash! I would say that their word has a lot more weigh than any fan out there, especially when it comes to the films. In the case of PREDATORS, the issue of continuity and where his movie was addressed to Rodriguez, he answered it pretty blatantly and intended where his film should fit. The fact that the movie doesn't even reference Predator 2, AvP or AvP-R (the Enemy of my Enemy line was more of a stab than a nod) but only the first suggests this.

Of course knowing you, you'd raise Antal's statements but the man contradicts himself, saying Berserker's jaw bone is a Xenomorph jaw, then going as far as to say that the wristblades in the AvP films were too long, then uses long blades and then after saying all of that, he said PREDATORS dismisses the AvP films despite talking about the jawbone and the blades. I wouldn't even count Antal's word at all, not to mention the film wasn't his brainchild but Rodriguez's.

As for Ridley Scott, well... I don't think he said anything about the AvP films except that he didn't see them and didn't want to see them, and when Lindelof mentioned on establishing a connection-- Ridley almost blew a gasket. It's clear that he didn't want to follow the AvP timeline, and either a writer at Fox or someone from Ridley's crew had written the contradictory Weyland Corp timeline.

I'll take the story and words from Rodriguez and Scott over any fan's, why? They worked on the films, and helmed them.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
Why do you care if your vision is "official"? Does it make a difference?

Who said that the idea of a multiverse is MY vision? No where in this thread had I mentioned that it was MY vision. Either you are twisting my words to suit your own argument or there is a misunderstanding going on. I am sincerely hoping that it's the latter. The whole point of this discussion is to get a feel if there are any fans out there who are open to the idea of a multiverse. I'd say I have achieved that point as some fans feel there is a multiverse at work here, or that one should be implemented.

As for my vision, well... I do have a fanon based world which incorporates the first two Predator movies, the AvP films, the Alien films but it also incorporates other franchises not related to Alien-Predator at all. No way would it ever be official. And I doubt many fans out there would ever want it to be. And I wouldn't blame them.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
If "every interpretation" of AvP is suddenly "official", how does that work for, say, people who choose to ignore 'Alien3' or 'Alien Resurrection'? They're official sources, and there's no "official" multiverse where the timeline ends at 'Aliens'. If you're choosing to ignore those movies, that's fanon and there's absolutely nothing "official" about it.

A multiverse would help because fans would be able to choose which continuity they would want to follow. As for people who want to ignore Alien 3, a multiverse would allow them to do just that and perhaps follow the original Aliens comics-- you know, the ones where Hicks, Newt and Ripley were still Hicks, New and Ripley? Yeah. Or... they could follow a universe where Operation Aliens takes place (though not many people would want to follow that one-- a few would though). And then there are the different cuts of Alien 3, you have the theatrical cut which could be in one universe set after ALIENS, and then there is the Assembly Cut which is considered a different movie altogether and it could take place after the second film.

Infact.. there is a franchise which did this.. the Highlander franchise. I happen to be talking about Highlander 2: The Quickening. There are like three different cuts of the movie which fans can choose to follow, the original and reviled VHS/Theatrical cut, the Renegade Edition which instead re-writes the Immortals as coming from a distant past instead of Immortals being aliens from the planet Zeist, and then there is the DVD cut which keeps some of the Zeist elements but re-writes some areas of the film. And the funny thing is, the Highlander franchise has a multiverse going on-- even if it isn't explicitly stated in any of the Highlander media, it's there.

I don't see why Alien-Predator can't have the same thing going for it.

QuoteWhat little next to no plot there is.

That's okay. :)

QuoteAnd as for the narrator text, of course it's going to tell kids to continue the battle in their imagination-- they want them to play with the toys, and then buy more for the next comic.

If you look at it as an in-universe document (like, say, 'Cyberantics'), then things are a bit different. :)

QuoteAnd had Operation Aliens actually made it to the airwaves, I'm more than certain that the characters wouldn't be androids or even so much as actors portraying the Sulaco marines in propaganda fiction for children literally in the Alien-Predator franchise but rather a world of itself which is based off the first two Alien films with some liberties in continuity and canon. Again, see the Marvel/Sunbow Robocop cartoon to see what I mean. The same concept would've been done for Operation Aliens had it actually made it in television.

This is all a moot point since the show never got made, though.

QuoteGeorge Lucas had viewed the films and the Star Wars EU as separate universes. He's even explicitly mentioned so in a Star Log magazine interview. The statement came from the guy who CREATED Star Wars, and he never saw them as part of the films. But that doesn't matter now because Disney's taking the franchise to the chopping block and deciding what's canon and what isn't.

Lucas also said that the EU was canon, in fact I'm pretty sure he said that more often than not. I'm pretty confident Wookiepedia chronicled the myriad quotes from him.

QuoteBecause some fans feel as if certain entries within the franchises are impeding on the continuities which they want to follow. A multiverse would organize everything and simply move certain things to a different area in the multiverse. As an AvP fan, I most certaintly don't want Rodriguez's PREDATORS leaking into that continuity. As for Alien fans, I'm sure a lot of them out there don't want either Predator or AvP leaking into their favorite series respective continuity. Same thing for some Predator fans.

But you didn't answer my question - how is that different from how things are now? If you don't like 'Predators', disregard it - problem solved.

QuoteEverything would be categorized. Everything would fit in it's own place. Things would be a whole lot more organized.

Far from it, since a ton of things fit in multiple categories. Hell, they could all fit in one category - it's what I've been saying for years now. :P

QuoteSo I am not going to comment on that, but to say that their word is fanon as any other fans? Balderdash! I would say that their word has a lot more weigh than any fan out there, especially when it comes to the films. In the case of PREDATORS, the issue of continuity and where his movie was addressed to Rodriguez, he answered it pretty blatantly and intended where his film should fit. The fact that the movie doesn't even reference Predator 2, AvP or AvP-R (the Enemy of my Enemy line was more of a stab than a nod) but only the first suggests this.

This is circular reasoning - you haven't said why we should care what Rodriguez says.

Not to mention 'Predators' had more AvP references than you might care to realize. The holographic display on the wrist gauntlet, off the top of my head. The Predators working together in threes, for another.

QuoteOf course knowing you, you'd raise Antal's statements but the man contradicts himself, saying Berserker's jaw bone is a Xenomorph jaw, then going as far as to say that the wristblades in the AvP films were too long, then uses long blades and then after saying all of that, he said PREDATORS dismisses the AvP films despite talking about the jawbone and the blades. I wouldn't even count Antal's word at all, not to mention the film wasn't his brainchild but Rodriguez's.

Antal just directed the thing, that's all. :P
If anything all that shows that perhaps he wasn't quite as strict on "disregarding AvP" as some might want to believe. ;)

And then FOX, who owns the franchise, threw in a bunch of AvP references not only on the merchandise, but on the DVD/bluray release of the movie as well.

QuoteI'll take the story and words from Rodriguez and Scott over any fan's, why? They worked on the films, and helmed them.

Ridley Scott would be the first one to disagree with you - he's pretty big on personal interpretation. Case in point: his views on Blade Runner aren't particularly consistent with anyone else who worked on the movie, and he's totally okay with that.

Quote
Who said that the idea of a multiverse is MY vision? No where in this thread had I mentioned that it was MY vision. Either you are twisting my words to suit your own argument or there is a misunderstanding going on.

You're arguing the point pretty strongly, it's a pretty easy assumption to make. :P

But I'll rephrase my question:

Why should anyone care if their vision is "official"? Does it make a difference?

Enjoy the franchises any way you see fit - it's fiction and it's meant for entertainment. If someone isn't having fun with it, they're doing it wrong. :P
Someone wants a multiverse? Thumbs up, go hog-wild. It shouldn't make a difference if that's the "official" way it is according to Fox.

QuoteA multiverse would help because fans would be able to choose which continuity they would want to follow. As for people who want to ignore Alien 3, a multiverse would allow them to do just that and perhaps follow the original Aliens comics-- you know, the ones where Hicks, Newt and Ripley were still Hicks, New and Ripley? Yeah. Or... they could follow a universe where Operation Aliens takes place (though not many people would want to follow that one-- a few would though). And then there are the different cuts of Alien 3, you have the theatrical cut which could be in one universe set after ALIENS, and then there is the Assembly Cut which is considered a different movie altogether and it could take place after the second film.

That's exactly how it is now, though. Fans pick and choose what they want all the time, so perhaps I'm not seeing how what you're proposing is any different from how things currently work.
You said it yourself - you've got your own order and selection of what you choose to believe, and you don't expect anyone else to agree with your choices. That's fine, if you're having fun and it's what you enjoy and makes you happy, then you win. :) It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks.

To have a strictly codified "multiverse" where everything fits into a particular separate universe is a bad idea because:

1. there'd be no way to strictly codify it anyway, since so many things overlap or are necessary for other things in a particular universe to occur, or are so vague that they could fit in multiple universes, and despite this....

2. you're still forcing people to pick particular universes, which is more limiting than the way things work right now, unless.....

3. you have an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of combinations of what people personally pick and choose... which is exactly how things work right now anyway. :P

So what's the point?

Oh my GODDDDDDDD

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Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
If you look at it as an in-universe document (like, say, 'Cyberantics'), then things are a bit different. :)

But Operation Aliens isn't meant to be seen as an in-universe document.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
This is all a moot point since the show never got made, though.

But you get the point none the less, and even if it hadn't been made into a Saturday morning cartoon-- the same logic and idea also applies to the Kenner toys comics. Not that I consider them canon anyway but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
Lucas also said that the EU was canon, in fact I'm pretty sure he said that more often than not. I'm pretty confident Wookiepedia chronicled the myriad quotes from him.

I am not so sure about that, he's been adamant that the Star Wars EU was it's own separate thing which branched off the movies and that he's never read it. He's aware of it, but never really read it-- and he incorporates certain elements of it, not the entirety of it. As for who said it was canon, I'm sure it was one of the EU maintainers but that doesn't matter now.. Disney is going to make all of it canon anyway.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
But you didn't answer my question - how is that different from how things are now? If you don't like 'Predators', disregard it - problem solved.

Problem not necessarily solved. Even if we choose to disregard it, there are harsh and sour reminders that Fox just lumps everything together in an incoherent canon-- you bring this up a lot with the merchandise, and of course there are the IoS games such as Evolution. Not all of the movies fit together, and some of them can't happen together. Prometheus is one of these films.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
This is circular reasoning - you haven't said why we should care what Rodriguez says.

Not to mention 'Predators' had more AvP references than you might care to realize. The holographic display on the wrist gauntlet, off the top of my head. The Predators working together in threes, for another.

I have mentioned it. He had intended a place for where his movie to fit in, and he has explicitly mentioned it so. Also, there is a lot of confusion and misinformation on where the movie fits-- especially how an IMDBer and Youtuber named LittleJimmy835 used Antal's statement to convince (or rather trick) a good portion of the internet (Wikipedia, Xenopedia, Google even) that the AvP films were non-canon and that PREDATORS is Predator 3, when Rodriguez states otherwise.

As for the AvP references.. Technology is a very different thing. I would say that technology really doesn't have a bearing on the storyline whatsoever. Neither does hunting in groups of three.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
You're arguing the point pretty strongly, it's a pretty easy assumption to make. :P

But I'll rephrase my question:

Why should anyone care if their vision is "official"? Does it make a difference?

Enjoy the franchises any way you see fit - it's fiction and it's meant for entertainment. If someone isn't having fun with it, they're doing it wrong. :P
Someone wants a multiverse? Thumbs up, go hog-wild. It shouldn't make a difference if that's the "official" way it is according to Fox.

I am arguing the point pretty strongly because we are debating this. I am for the idea of the multiverse, and you are against it. If I didn't believe in my view, would I bother in arguing it? No. And again.. the whole point of the thread is to see who believes that there should be a multiverse, or that there is one already. I and others who believe that there is a multiverse aren't planning on flash mobbing Fox's offices and demanding one. We're just discussing it there is one, or should be one. That's it.

Some people, much like yourself, enjoy the canon and the franchises a lot in an attempt to make sense of it. Some people like the films more than others, some don't like certain entries (this is true for the AvP's, though I liked them) and see them as nothing more than a side-story or an alternate universe.

I would love a multiverse. SpreadEagleBeagle is warming up to the idea. Ultramorph thinks it might work. SM believes that there is a multiverse at work already as the timelines are divergent.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
Antal just directed the thing, that's all. :P
If anything all that shows that perhaps he wasn't quite as strict on "disregarding AvP" as some might want to believe. ;)

And then FOX, who owns the franchise, threw in a bunch of AvP references not only on the merchandise, but on the DVD/bluray release of the movie as well.

Yeah but Rodriguez wrote the film, oversaw the revisions, and helmed the entire project. The only reason he couldn't direct was a because he had been busy with Machete. Regardless, it's no question that Antal has a distaste towards the AvP films.

As for Fox.. sure they own the franchise but does merchandise really have any bearing on the canon? I sincerely doubt that the toys have any real impact on the films and the characters whatsoever. So.. toys don't count. Neither do watches, cereal spoons, bubble bath, shampoo, or even chopsticks.

And what AvP references were made in the DVD/Bluray feature? Unless you happen to be talking the use of the Yautja term in the featurette "Yautja Transformed"? Sure, Fox recognizes the Yautja concept as canon, but that's mostly in part of the AvP films. Also... I doubt that the Super Predators are Yautja, even the toys go as far as to differentiate between the two. And I don't consider the toys canon, but I know you do.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
Ridley Scott would be the first one to disagree with you - he's pretty big on personal interpretation. Case in point: his views on Blade Runner aren't particularly consistent with anyone else who worked on the movie, and he's totally okay with that.

I've only seen five Ridley Scott movies in my life time... Alien, Prometheus, Gladiator, Man on Fire, and Legend. I can see the whole metaphorical and interpretive stuff in Alien and Prometheus, maybe Legend as well but the other ones.. Mmmm.. I'mma have to see them again.

Never saw Blade Runner though. Probably won't either.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 28, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
That's exactly how it is now, though. Fans pick and choose what they want all the time, so perhaps I'm not seeing how what you're proposing is any different from how things currently work.
You said it yourself - you've got your own order and selection of what you choose to believe, and you don't expect anyone else to agree with your choices. That's fine, if you're having fun and it's what you enjoy and makes you happy, then you win. :) It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks.

To have a strictly codified "multiverse" where everything fits into a particular separate universe is a bad idea because:

1. there'd be no way to strictly codify it anyway, since so many things overlap or are necessary for other things in a particular universe to occur, or are so vague that they could fit in multiple universes, and despite this....

2. you're still forcing people to pick particular universes, which is more limiting than the way things work right now, unless.....

3. you have an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of combinations of what people personally pick and choose... which is exactly how things work right now anyway. :P

So what's the point?

I don't think you are seeing it the way I am arguing it. Or perhaps we are arguing the same thing. The thing with the multiverse is, fanon retcons wouldn't be needed to explain certain things or where a certain movie fits in. With the whole personal canon/singular continuity thing which you are arguing in favor for.. requires a lot of fanon retconning, and even then some things I just do not see meshing either very well, or fitting in whatsoever.

I don't think strictly codifying each universe would be a bad thing. Infact-- Marvel and DC have done it. I know I mentioned that I was contemplating on writing out how a multiverse would work and I happened to have tore a page out of Marvel's universal indexes. For example, if you want the AvP continuity which features the first two Predator movies, the AvP movies, the Alien films, and the EU all the way up from 2010.. It would have an Earth numerical designation. This would be known as Earth 1987-2231.

If you want a PREDATORS continuity which features the first Predator, but also PREDATORS-- this would be Earth 1987-2010. If you want to follow a Prometheus-Alien continuity, that would be Earth 2089-2381.

I really don't see the idea of a multiverse being limiting or forcing anyone to pick anything. Again the idea of a multiverse is that there are plenty of possibilities. It also leaves a wider range of stories to be told. Then again you'll argue that's what personal canon is for.

As for the point, well, let's say hypothetically Fox does want a multiverse.. perhaps a point would be to organize the canon a little bit more and each puzzle piece is different which forms a larger puzzle.

Also.. if you would permit me, I would like to go to sleep now.

QuoteBut Operation Aliens isn't meant to be seen as an in-universe document.

How do you know? :)

QuoteI am not so sure about that, he's been adamant that the Star Wars EU was it's own separate thing which branched off the movies and that he's never read it.

Not true - I know of at least one photo where he literally had EU books on the shelf in his office.

QuoteProblem not necessarily solved. Even if we choose to disregard it, there are harsh and sour reminders that Fox just lumps everything together in an incoherent canon

Why do you care what FOX thinks? Do what makes you happy. :)

QuoteAs for the AvP references.. Technology is a very different thing. I would say that technology really doesn't have a bearing on the storyline whatsoever. Neither does hunting in groups of three.

Taking the story by itself though, there's nothing in 'Predators' that negates 'AvP' (or Predator 2, for that matter). If anything it's pretty much par for the course for how the franchise has operated as a whole, where the vast majority of the stories don't really reference each other much, but also don't cancel each other out or anything.

QuoteIf I didn't believe in my view, would I bother in arguing it?

Perhaps - I've argued points I didn't actually completely agree on just to play devil's advocate, because it was an interesting idea to think/talk about. :P

QuoteSome people, much like yourself, enjoy the canon and the franchises a lot in an attempt to make sense of it. Some people like the films more than others, some don't like certain entries (this is true for the AvP's, though I liked them) and see them as nothing more than a side-story or an alternate universe.

That's all well and good, but I don't think that answers my question. :)

QuoteRegardless, it's no question that Antal has a distaste towards the AvP films.

Perhaps. but he's evidently open to the AvP concept given how he's said he thinks Berserker has an Alien jaw on his mask. :P

QuoteAs for Fox.. sure they own the franchise but does merchandise really have any bearing on the canon? I sincerely doubt that the toys have any real impact on the films and the characters whatsoever. So.. toys don't count.

That's one opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it. :)

QuoteAnd what AvP references were made in the DVD/Bluray feature? Unless you happen to be talking the use of the Yautja term in the featurette "Yautja Transformed"? Sure, Fox recognizes the Yautja concept as canon, but that's mostly in part of the AvP films. Also... I doubt that the Super Predators are Yautja, even the toys go as far as to differentiate between the two.

The Yautja concept is from the comics, it's not mentioned in the movies at all. Although incidentally the blurays for both 'AvP' and 'AvP:R' make specific mention of it (and other EU stuff, too).
However like you said, it's an "AvP"-specific concept -- and there it is, right on the 'Predators' bluray. :P

I personally don't like the idea of the Super Predators being "Yautja" (I think it'd be a whole lot easier if it turned out they were, say, Hish), but the character bios on the NECA figures explicitly calls them Yautja. C'est a vie, i guess. :P

QuoteNever saw Blade Runner though. Probably won't either.

Why not? incidentally that's the one open to the most interpretation.

There's like 4782 different versions of that movie, and I'm not a big fan of most of them, but I recently saw the "final cut" on bluray and it rules pretty hard. If you haven't seen it, you're missing out.

QuoteI don't think strictly codifying each universe would be a bad thing. Infact-- Marvel and DC have done it.

The difference is their multiverses are literally separate things that don't intersect, just like the Transformers multiverse. At best an AvP "multiverse" would be more akin to "branching timelines", and I'd argue that it would be impossible to codify with any worthwhile precision since there's so much stuff that's vague or non-contradictory.

QuoteI really don't see the idea of a multiverse being limiting or forcing anyone to pick anything. Again the idea of a multiverse is that there are plenty of possibilities. It also leaves a wider range of stories to be told. Then again you'll argue that's what personal canon is for.

Exactly. :) I'm still not seeing how it's any different from how things work right now.

Quotelet's say hypothetically Fox does want a multiverse

I'd say it's pretty explicit that they don't. :P

Quoteperhaps a point would be to organize the canon a little bit more and each puzzle piece is different which forms a larger puzzle.

That's pretty much the approach I've taken for years in organizing how everything would work in one continuity. :)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
How do you know? :)

Because I've read the comics and I own some of them. Also, nothing in the comics suggest that it is either an in-universe documentary or a fictitious take on the Marines which had fought and died on LV-426 meant for a children's show in the Alien-Predator universe. There is nothing to suggest that. Please don't pass off fanon as canon.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Not true - I know of at least one photo where he literally had EU books on the shelf in his office.

I am not much of a Star Wars fan or a fan dedicated to Georgie Porgie to know whether or not he's kept the EU on his book shelf or not. But again, it doesn't matter... Disney owns the franchises.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Why do you care what FOX thinks? Do what makes you happy. :)

As much as you are right about that, I will say that I am not happy with what Fox is doing with the franchises. And maybe one other person, namely SpreadEagleBeagle I believe, isn't too happy with how they are treating the franchises as well. I know that there are groups of people who aren't happy with the AvPs, PREDATORS or Prometheus. So it's not just me if that's what you insinuating. But since when did this argument become about me, and not the discussion which this thread is supposed to be about? Sometimes I swear, you have a way with twisting things.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Taking the story by itself though, there's nothing in 'Predators' that negates 'AvP' (or Predator 2, for that matter). If anything it's pretty much par for the course for how the franchise has operated as a whole, where the vast majority of the stories don't really reference each other much, but also don't cancel each other out or anything.

I will admit that while there is nothing in PREDATORS that negates Predator 2, or AvP-- I still argue that Rodriguez had intended the movie to be his version of what the second film was supposed to be and the issue of continuity in terms of the timeline was explicitly addressed to him and therefore answered by him.

I do acknowledge that there is nothing in the first AvP which references Predator or Predator 2, I do also maintain the argument that in the case of both films-- they were supposed to reference the first two films. Namely Dutch's cameo in the alternate ending (which admittedly was cooler than the PREDATORS cameo and made sense) and Garber was supposed to be in AvP-R, though apparently rumor has it that Adam Baldwin told the brothers Strause to go f**k off.. Not so sure about that rumor.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Perhaps. but he's evidently open to the AvP concept given how he's said he thinks Berserker has an Alien jaw on his mask. :P

I'm pretty sure that he doesn't think highly of the AvP movies or the concept. Especially how he has said that the AvP films went off into a superheroic or cartoonish direction. A bullshit statement on his part if you ask me, though I do acknowledge that the films weren't received well for a variety of reasons.

Also.. Antal contradicts himself.. A LOT.. So I wouldn't consider his word. Not to mention, PREDATORS isn't his brainchild but Rodriguez's.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
That's one opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it. :)

Just please tell me you don't consider the Tiger Toys watches, bubble bath, jigsaw puzzles, lunchboxes, thermos cans, back packs, sneakers, and chopsticks canon. Please.  :D

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
The Yautja concept is from the comics, it's not mentioned in the movies at all. Although incidentally the blurays for both 'AvP' and 'AvP:R' make specific mention of it (and other EU stuff, too).
However like you said, it's an "AvP"-specific concept -- and there it is, right on the 'Predators' bluray. :P

I personally don't like the idea of the Super Predators being "Yautja" (I think it'd be a whole lot easier if it turned out they were, say, Hish), but the character bios on the NECA figures explicitly calls them Yautja. C'est a vie, i guess.

Actually the Yautja concept is from the Perry novels, I don't remember the comics actually mentioning them by name but they do go hand in hand. And I do know that the AvP and AvP-R Blu-ray features make mention of the name-- AvP-R's Weyland Yutani archives written in-universe make mention of the name so.. there you go.

As for the PREDATORS Blu-ray.. I am aware of that... Which will bring us to another point. Much like you, I don't like the Super Predators being identified as Yautja either. It's actually a pet peeve of mine. Still, the NECA backstories suggest that the Super Predators consider themselves something different from the Yautja. But I do agree that if they were identified as the Hish, it would make things a lot easier-- and tolerable to digest.

But then again, while we do agree on that.. I disagree that NECA's back stories are canon. So in my opinion, and my exclusion of the NECA backstories... I don't believe that the Super Predators are Yautja based on anatomical differences and likely cultural differences as well.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Why not? incidentally that's the one open to the most interpretation.

There's like 4782 different versions of that movie, and I'm not a big fan of most of them, but I recently saw the "final cut" on bluray and it rules pretty hard. If you haven't seen it, you're missing out.

I am just not interested in seeing it. Simple as that.

Give me Alien, Predator, Robocop and Terminator!

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
The difference is their multiverses are literally separate things that don't intersect, just like the Transformers multiverse. At best an AvP "multiverse" would be more akin to "branching timelines", and I'd argue that it would be impossible to codify with any worthwhile precision since there's so much stuff that's vague or non-contradictory.

Actually, in regards to the mention of Marvel and DC's multiverses-- there are some universes which do have similar histories but they diverge from one another at different times. Infact, many of Marvel's universes have originated from one universe as potential futures but were averted yet-- still happened and were moved to a different universe designation. Day's of Futures Past started out as a potential future to Earth-616 but that was averted, yet the timeline when that incident happened was moved to another universe, I believe according to Marvel's universal listing.

And as for the branching timelines, same concept as the multiverse but different name. I also disagree that it would be impossible to codify, especially how Rodriguez's word can be used to help organize the timeline and the Weyland Corp timeline seems to distance itself from the AvP timeline. It's clear that neither PREDATORS or Prometheus is meant to go with the AvP films, or in Prometheus' case, the Predator films and the AvP films.

And even if you don't want to codify it like Marvel does, I point out to the Godzilla franchise and how their continuities branch off from each other and are recognized as universes.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
Exactly. :) I'm still not seeing how it's any different from how things work right now.

You do know that we are sort of arguing for the same idea, just a different approach to it, right? Personal canon allows fan retcons, which is something I don't really agree with where as a multiverse-- would allow things to fit in their own corner without needing much confusing retcons here and there.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
I'd say it's pretty explicit that they don't. :P

Or that they don't really care too much about consistency or coherency. They leave everything flexible, do they not?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM
That's pretty much the approach I've taken for years in organizing how everything would work in one continuity. :)

That's your personal canon, but I don't subscribe and agree with it. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. I'm also pretty sure there are others who do agree with you.. So we're not alone on either side of the spectrum.

QuoteAlso, nothing in the comics suggest that it is either an in-universe documentary or a fictitious take on the Marines which had fought and died on LV-426 meant for a children's show in the Alien-Predator universe. There is nothing to suggest that. Please don't pass off fanon as canon.

That's one way to look at it, but not the only way.

QuoteAs much as you are right about that, I will say that I am not happy with what Fox is doing with the franchises. And maybe one other person, namely SpreadEagleBeagle I believe, isn't too happy with how they are treating the franchises as well. I know that there are groups of people who aren't happy with the AvPs, PREDATORS or Prometheus.

That's all great, but you didn't answer my question - why should you (or anyone) care what FOX thinks?

QuoteI will admit that while there is nothing in PREDATORS that negates Predator 2, or AvP-- I still argue that Rodriguez had intended the movie to be his version of what the second film was supposed to be and the issue of continuity in terms of the timeline was explicitly addressed to him and therefore answered by him.

This assumes that authorial intent matters, though - as you've seen, I don't think it does at all, especially when they don't own the franchises or have any control over them once the cameras stop rolling.

QuoteI'm pretty sure that he doesn't think highly of the AvP movies or the concept.

Other than him saying Berserker had an Alien jaw on his mask, of course. :P

QuoteAlso.. Antal contradicts himself.. A LOT.. So I wouldn't consider his word.

So do many directors. Ridley Scott has flip-flopped on a ton of stuff. Hell, 'Prometheus' (potentially) retcons his own movie, all because he changed his mind over the years.

Directors are people, just like you and me. They have opinions, and they certainly don't create movies in a vacuum. Their opinions are neat footnotes for the moviemaking process as far as I'm concerned, but aren't exactly compelling arguments for "facts".

QuoteJust please tell me you don't consider the Tiger Toys watches, bubble bath, jigsaw puzzles, lunchboxes, thermos cans, back packs, sneakers, and chopsticks canon. Please.

Of course not, but that's also completely different.

Fun unrelated fact: the bios on the Transformers toys are "canon" in the Transformers franchise.

QuoteActually the Yautja concept is from the Perry novels, I don't remember the comics actually mentioning them by name but they do go hand in hand.

You're right, my mistake. :)

Quote
I am just not interested in seeing it. Simple as that.

Give me Alien, Predator, Robocop and Terminator!

Fair enough, but you're missing out. :)

I'm a bit of a cinema nerd, though. I've got upwards of like 450 movies chilling on my shelf. :P

QuoteAnd as for the branching timelines, same concept as the multiverse but different name. I also disagree that it would be impossible to codify, especially how Rodriguez's word can be used to help organize the timeline and the Weyland Corp timeline seems to distance itself from the AvP timeline. It's clear that neither PREDATORS or Prometheus is meant to go with the AvP films, or in Prometheus' case, the Predator films and the AvP films.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree, I think. :)

QuoteOr that they don't really care too much about consistency or coherency. They leave everything flexible, do they not?

Yeah, and I'm personally okay with that. Continuity in the A/P/AvP franchise is "fuzzy". I'm of the opinion that both versions of 'Alien3' are canon, despite aspects of them being mutually exclusive. I take the approach that both depictions have an equal probability of being true, and we don't (and can't) know which one is the "real" truth. Chalk it up to unreliable information with no way to verify it, etc.

Think of it like getting two witness testimonies for the same event, and they contradict each other. The witnesses have no reason to intentionally lie, and you have no way to verify which one is true. There could be an aspect of the "truth" somewhere that reconciles the true, or one of the two could be outright wrong. But for now, they're both true... even though they can't both be true. Think of it like a variation on Schroedinger's Cat, I suppose.

Incidentally the Warhammer40k franchise takes the same approach. It retcons and contradicts itself regularly, and the official stance is "every official source of information is inherently unreliable", as a sort of meta-commentary on the tone of the fictional universe itself. "Knowledge" in the 40k universe is such a fleeting and malleable thing that the very sources that constitute the fictional universe itself are unreliable.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
That's one way to look at it, but not the only way.

Fine. That's fair enough I suppose, but I really don't think or even believe that it's an in-universe television series for children on various planetary colonies. I just find your idea extremely hard to swallow and perhaps.. laughable.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
That's all great, but you didn't answer my question - why should you (or anyone) care what FOX thinks?

Because some of us would like consistency. That's why.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
This assumes that authorial intent matters, though - as you've seen, I don't think it does at all, especially when they don't own the franchises or have any control over them once the cameras stop rolling.

Considering the fact that a lot of people are going out of their way to say that the AvP films are no longer canon based on either Rodriguez or Antal's word (the latter whose word I disagree with) and of course Ridley Scott's, I would say that to many fans authorial intent does matter. Sure, they don't own the franchises but does that stop from going the direction they want to go with their story? No, not at all whatsoever.

A lot of franchises are like this.. Most especially the Godzilla franchise where numerous directors have mentioned where they wanted their vision to go and how their movies fit in with continuity. But Toho, much like Fox doesn't really care about continuity too much when it comes to their expanded universe material-- especially how you have Showa era monsters interacting with Heisei and Millenium era monsters. And then there are the Rebirth of Mothra films, which really don't have anything to do with the Godzilla continuity much at all whatsoever.

You want to disagree with Word of God for your own personal fanon/canon? Fine but don't try and pass off your fanon as canon.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
Other than him saying Berserker had an Alien jaw on his mask, of course. :P

And then he goes onto say that he's dismissing the AvP films and that they are no longer relevant.  ::)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
So do many directors. Ridley Scott has flip-flopped on a ton of stuff. Hell, 'Prometheus' (potentially) retcons his own movie, all because he changed his mind over the years.

Directors are people, just like you and me. They have opinions, and they certainly don't create movies in a vacuum. Their opinions are neat footnotes for the moviemaking process as far as I'm concerned, but aren't exactly compelling arguments for "facts".

I have to actually ask, how does Prometheus retcon Alien? I'm actually asking this because when another fan says something like this, it gets me interested and I want to know these kinds of things. So.. how?

Yes, fiction authors are people. That much is true... I mean J.K. Rowling had announced the other day that she should've paired Harry up with Hermione instead of Ron Weasley being paired with Hermoine.

But in the case of Robert Rodriguez and Ridley Scott, they have announced their distaste for certain films. Robert HATES Predator 2, and the AvPs, even going as far as to disagreeing with his own son Rebel for playing the AvP-R PSP game and liking the concept-- he's admitted this on a Comic-con panel.  Ridley Scott didn't like the concept of AvP and has no intentions of seeing the movie. I'm not saying they can't change their mind, they can but with these two and their attitude towards the AvPs.. not likely to happen.

And as for your disagreement, that's as far as your concerned. But we can agree, they don't retcon the AvP's out of existence, bur rather just ignore them. It's how they ignore them to what we disagree on.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
This is where we'll have to agree to disagree, I think. :)

And let's agree to disagree.. Besides, we wound up getting into a canon debate when the debate is supposed to be about a multiverse. So.. let's stick with the idea of the multiverse. But even then, we're in a deadlock.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
Yeah, and I'm personally okay with that. Continuity in the A/P/AvP franchise is "fuzzy". I'm of the opinion that both versions of 'Alien3' are canon, despite aspects of them being mutually exclusive. I take the approach that both depictions have an equal probability of being true, and we don't (and can't) know which one is the "real" truth. Chalk it up to unreliable information with no way to verify it, etc.

Think of it like getting two witness testimonies for the same event, and they contradict each other. The witnesses have no reason to intentionally lie, and you have no way to verify which one is true. There could be an aspect of the "truth" somewhere that reconciles the true, or one of the two could be outright wrong. But for now, they're both true... even though they can't both be true. Think of it like a variation on Schroedinger's Cat, I suppose.

This is where and why I think a multiverse would actually come in useful. The only other films which I think have a similar situation regarding what versions and different cuts of a movie exist are the three cuts of Highlander 2: The Quickening, and Apocalypse Now and Apocalypse Now: Redux-- the latter which is considered a different movie. Though the multiverse works in the context of the Highlander franchise, especially the Highlander 2 films despite nowhere in the franchise is there a multiverse mentioned.

A multiverse does suggest that there are universes which have shared and matching histories, though there are differences and divergences up to a certain point. If we compare the Theatrical cuts and the Assembly cut of Alien 3, perhaps in the multiverse that both events happened-- until the Facehugger event. In one universe, the Facehugger latches onto a dog. In another, the Facehugger is a different kind of Facehugger that instead opted to latch onto an Ox. Both are valid yet take place in similar but different universes. The idea allows both to exist without either interfering with each other.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
Incidentally the Warhammer40k franchise takes the same approach. It retcons and contradicts itself regularly, and the official stance is "every official source of information is inherently unreliable", as a sort of meta-commentary on the tone of the fictional universe itself. "Knowledge" in the 40k universe is such a fleeting and malleable thing that the very sources that constitute the fictional universe itself are unreliable.

I never really did get into Warhammer.. So, I sort of can't comment on that.

QuoteI really don't think or even believe that it's an in-universe television series for children on various planetary colonies.

It wouldn't be the first franchise it's happened with. It literally happens in the first 4 minutes of 'Pacific Rim', to name an example off the top of my head. And the Aliens tie-in book 'Cyberantics' is written as an in-universe children's book.

QuoteBecause some of us would like consistency. That's why.

Isn't that what personal canon is for?

QuoteYou want to disagree with Word of God for your own personal fanon/canon? Fine but don't try and pass off your fanon as canon.

I'm not. :) I'm also not using the word of the creators as fact, either. ;)

QuoteAnd then he goes onto say that he's dismissing the AvP films and that they are no longer relevant.

Yes, which tells me that he doesn't like the AvP movies, but that he's okay with Aliens fighting Predators as a concept.
And he was right, the AvP movies were no longer relevant to the story in 'Predators', but that doesn't mean it's been erased from continuity or something like that.
Just like nothing in 'Alien Resurrection' was relevant to 'Prometheus', and I'm very confident Ridley Scott didn't give Resurrection even a passing thought while making his movie, but I don't see anyone saying that Prometheus erased Resurrection from continuity or put it in a separate "multiverse" or anything.

QuoteI have to actually ask, how does Prometheus retcon Alien? I'm actually asking this because when another fan says something like this, it gets me interested and I want to know these kinds of things. So.. how?

Assuming we take the Space Jockey and Engineer as the same creature, that's a pretty huge one. Ridley Scott spells it out in the Prometheus art book's introduction - he outright says the corpse in 'Alien' was a skeleton of some non-human creature, and then says that 'Prometheus' changes that.

More subtly, Prometheus rolls with the "Weyland" spelling, while in 'Alien' it was "Weylan".

QuoteThe only other films which I think have a similar situation regarding what versions and different cuts of a movie exist are the three cuts of Highlander 2: The Quickening, and Apocalypse Now and Apocalypse Now: Redux-- the latter which is considered a different movie.

To be fair there's a ton of movies out there with multiple versions (case in point: all 4 Alien movies, both AvP movies, Blade Runner, all three Riddick movies, Terminator 2, Metropolis, Robocop, and countless others), but I don't think any of them really constitute their own separate "universe". They're just... different versions of the movie. I'm not really sure anyone stays up at night pondering which version of 'Blade Runner' is the "true" canonical version.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 12:58:53 PM
It wouldn't be the first franchise it's happened with. It literally happens in the first 4 minutes of 'Pacific Rim', to name an example off the top of my head. And the Aliens tie-in book 'Cyberantics' is written as an in-universe children's book.

Sure, Cyberantics was written as a children's book but Operation Aliens being written as a children's television series in-universe for Alien-Predator? I really think you're reaching for straws on that one. There is nothing suggesting that the events in the Kenner toys comics happen to be Saturday Morning cartoon aimed at children, and no other comic mentions the toy comics whatsoever, let alone take them seriously.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 12:58:53 PM
I'm not. :) I'm also not using the word of the creators as fact, either. ;)

I use the Word of God because writers, directors and producers are an authority when it comes to fiction. Of course there is a level hierarchy and I would view the producer as the highest authority. Because Fox remains quiet often times, it kind of has to be looked at that particular way. Also, Word of God is also used to settle debates but not everyone subscribes to it because they feel it lessens their imagination of a particular work of fiction. For me, the Word is cold, solid fact and couldn't be anymore blatant unless specifically otherwise stated to be open to interpretation.

Hell, even Ridley Scott's word in Blade Runner suggest that Harrison Ford's character is a Replicant. But I know you'll argue against that.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 12:58:53 PM
Yes, which tells me that he doesn't like the AvP movies, but that he's okay with Aliens fighting Predators as a concept.
And he was right, the AvP movies were no longer relevant to the story in 'Predators', but that doesn't mean it's been erased from continuity or something like that.
Just like nothing in 'Alien Resurrection' was relevant to 'Prometheus', and I'm very confident Ridley Scott didn't give Resurrection even a passing thought while making his movie, but I don't see anyone saying that Prometheus erased Resurrection from continuity or put it in a separate "multiverse" or anything.

Also add into the fact that Rodriguez wanted his movie nothing to do with Predator 2, AvP, and AvP-R.. No references of the events of Los Angeles 1997 were made even though briefing on the encounter would've helped tremendously, and while some of the technology was similar to the ones seen in AvP-- technology really has no bearing on the storyline. As for where the movie fits, I don't think we're getting anywhere with that-- you won't budge, I won't budge. We're going to have to disagree on that.

As for Prometheus and it's relevancy to Resurrection.. Well, Prometheus has very little to do with Alien despite being in the same universe. If anything it was mostly Ridley who wanted to step away from many things that were Alien related and do something different and new. Granted, while I loved Prometheus-- I do wish now that it had nothing to do with Alien.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 01, 2014, 12:58:53 PM
To be fair there's a ton of movies out there with multiple versions (case in point: all 4 Alien movies, both AvP movies, Blade Runner, all three Riddick movies, Terminator 2, Metropolis, Robocop, and countless others), but I don't think any of them really constitute their own separate "universe". They're just... different versions of the movie. I'm not really sure anyone stays up at night pondering which version of 'Blade Runner' is the "true" canonical version.

In the regards to different cuts of the films, for me it all depends on how different various cuts are from each other-- if they differ to where characters have different origins, different or improved storyline, character development, etc, etc.. I would consider those a much different movie. As to what is canon and what isn't... I see different cuts as being interchangeable, though sometimes directors consider Director's Cuts as being the definitive versions.

In the case of ALIENS and Terminator 2, I believe James Cameron considers the Director's Cuts of his movies as being the definitive versions-- the story he wants to tell. I usually chose Director's Cuts over the Theatrical Cuts-- though in the case of ALIENS and T2, I see those as something as being something interchangeable as they don't change the story too much, if at all.

As for the Director's Cut of Robocop, I never really saw that version but I am pretty sure that the scenes between Kenny's death, and Murphy's death scene were simply the original and intended versions than what we got in the theatrical cut. So for me, that's something pretty interchangeable.

As for Gojira/Godzilla, the American cut is a different movie altogether from the Japanese original and the same can be said for King Kong vs Godzilla.. though the case is different for Japanese edit and American edits for films.. the original formats are true canon. I discard the American cuts. The same can be said about the differences in Godzilla 1985 and the Return of Godzilla. Same film, different cuts, different storylines altogether.

As for the other movies you mentioned.. Never saw them. Probably never really will.

Though the multiverse argument stands very true in the case of Highlander 2: The Quickening, and I would argue the same for Alien 3 and the two various cuts that it has.. three cuts if there is such thing as the VHS Workprint that's rumored to exist.

Also, sorry if I do not respond if at all today.. I've had a rough day as I had to drop my Mom off at the hospital. So don't hold it against me if I choose not to reply aside from this post today.

Guys this is getting ridiculous.

Whoever feels that there shouldn't be/isn't a multiverse, give up.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 01, 2014, 10:23:50 PM
Whoever feels that there shouldn't be/isn't a multiverse, give up.

In your dreams! The "Everything-A/P/AvP/Prom-is-canon-and-is-taking-place-in-the-same-exact-universe/timeline/continuity" possie never gives up. It's an endurance test of monumental prestige where even a win-win compromise equals bitter defeat. This could go on for a good five or so more pages - I know, I've been foolish enough to get myself into a few of these moronic canon debates, usually ending with total utter exhaustion or petty name-calling. The only sane thing to do is to walk away in time, and in some cases use the "Ignore User" function if the temptation is too much  :P

Quoteno other comic mentions the toy comics whatsoever

A lot of sources don't mention other sources. :)

QuoteI use the Word of God because writers, directors and producers are an authority when it comes to fiction.

No they aren't. :P

QuoteAlso, Word of God is also used to settle debates

But it doesn't.

QuoteFor me, the Word is cold, solid fact

But it isn't. ???

QuoteHell, even Ridley Scott's word in Blade Runner suggest that Harrison Ford's character is a Replicant. But I know you'll argue against that.

Absolutely - it's his opinion and interpretation that Deckard is a replicant, and Harrison Ford himself (and the movie's scriptwriter, and the author of the original novel) thought he was human. Which one is "right"? It doesn't matter, the fact that people can even discuss it is what makes it interesting.

QuoteAlso add into the fact that Rodriguez wanted his movie nothing to do with Predator 2, AvP, and AvP-R

I think you're missing my point - "doesn't reference" does not equal "erased from continuity/never happened" in the big picture.

QuoteIn the case of ALIENS and Terminator 2, I believe James Cameron considers the Director's Cuts of his movies as being the definitive versions

He does, although that raises another interesting point - Ridley Scott's opinion for just about all of his movies (except Blade Runner) is that the theatrical cut of the movie is his personal definitive "director's cut", including 'Alien'. So which do you go with, the 'Alien' theatrical cut (which Ridley Scott considers the definitive version), or the "director's cut" which isn't actually his preferred version? Unlike most director's cuts, the Alien DC swaps out a bunch of scenes and is actually a minute shorter than the TC version.

Quotethough in the case of ALIENS and T2, I see those as something as being something interchangeable as they don't change the story too much, if at all.

The story doesn't change, but other little details do. We only learn that Newt's family is the ones who discovered the Derelict in the Director's Cut, or that Ripley's daughter is deceased, or that the Marines had sentry guns. Likewise with T2, the director's cut reveals that Terminators can learn, but that it's a physical setting on their chip that needs to be manually set.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 01, 2014, 10:23:50 PM
Guys this is getting ridiculous.

Whoever feels that there shouldn't be/isn't a multiverse, give up.

Why?

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 01, 2014, 11:56:03 PM

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 01, 2014, 10:23:50 PM
Whoever feels that there shouldn't be/isn't a multiverse, give up.

In your dreams! The "Everything-A/P/AvP/Prom-is-canon-and-is-taking-place-in-the-same-exact-universe/timeline/continuity" possie never gives up. It's an endurance test of monumental prestige where even a win-win compromise equals bitter defeat. This could go on for a good five or so more pages - I know, I've been foolish enough to get myself into a few of these moronic canon debates, usually ending with total utter exhaustion or petty name-calling. The only sane thing to do is to walk away in time, and in some cases use the "Ignore User" function if the temptation is too much  :P

Really likin' those cheap-shots, bro.
For someone who has me on ignore, you can't stop talking about me. :D

But he's correct, no matter what you think, the idea they all happened in the same world is ludacris.

Word.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.starpulse.com%2FPhotos%2FPreviews%2FLudacris-ps01.jpg&hash=ddfe64ce6c592155e47e92c43df60d37a5bac3c1)

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 02, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
A lot of sources don't mention other sources. :)

Because they are either retconned, ignored, follow a different continuity path, simply forgotten or were never meant to have a continuity to begin with. A fine example of the last one would be the Leprechaun series. There is practically no continuity (or reference of previous entries) whatsoever with those movies and they're all stand alone movies.

And then there is the Witchcraft series.. Good God...

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 02, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
No they aren't. :P

Sure they are. They are the creators and they can do what they like with certain stories or characters. But I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 02, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
But it doesn't.

Only to those who don't subscribe to the Word of God or Authorial Intent tropes because it "sullies" their personal interpretation of works of fiction. It's okay if you don't agree but it's clear where creators want their works to stand.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 02, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
But it isn't. ???

See the above response.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 02, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
Absolutely - it's his opinion and interpretation that Deckard is a replicant, and Harrison Ford himself (and the movie's scriptwriter, and the author of the original novel) thought he was human. Which one is "right"? It doesn't matter, the fact that people can even discuss it is what makes it interesting.

I have never seen Blade Runner, and I probably likely never will. However looking it up online, it turns out to be a loose adaptation of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. As to which one is definitive, always go with the source material-- in this case it would be the original book(s). This is something which is often relied a lot on when it comes to books to movie adaptations, as well as manga and their anime adaptations-- like Dragonball and Sailor Moon. Some continuities hold precedence over the others. But that shouldn't stop you from enjoying whichever medium you want to enjoy. If you enjoy the book, enjoy the book, if you enjoy the adaptation-- enjoy the adaptation. None of them are "wrong" but the original formats hold precedence over others.

But this is getting to be quite a tiresome "debate". You've raised some questions which were tough to counter, though while I do not agree with your personal view on things... I can say that I respect a person who sticks to their guns. But it's very clear here that neither of us are going to get anywhere. I never even really wanted to get into a "canon debate" but merely wanted to discuss if a multiverse does exist in the realm of Alien-Predator or that there is one already at work. It's one thing to stick to your guns, but I felt like as if we have strayed too far from the discussion intended-- the idea of a multiverse. If you don't like the idea of a multiverse, that's fine and that's all I need to know.

After all, the point of this thread is to get a feel about how fans would feel towards a multiverse. And you've contributed it to that point by expressing your disagreement. So, thank you very much!

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 02, 2014, 06:05:39 PM
But he's correct, no matter what you think

There's a slight, almost imperceptible difference between a "fact" and an "opinion". ;)

QuoteBecause they are either retconned, ignored, follow a different continuity path, simply forgotten or were never meant to have a continuity to begin with.

I was referring specifically to the A/P/AvP franchise. Nearly every Predator comic is a standalone story that doesn't reference anything else (not even the movies, aside from having the titular Predator character) but that doesn't mean they're each meant to exist in their own pocket universe, independent of one another.

QuoteSure they are. They are the creators and they can do what they like with certain stories or characters. But I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree. The nature of art and fiction is that it gets interpreted by the viewer once it gets "released into the wild", and like I said before even Ridley Scott would be the first one to tell you that.

QuoteIt's okay if you don't agree but it's clear where creators want their works to stand.

I don't dispute this; I'm only disputing the reliance on it as some kind of irrefutable fact in a discussion. :P

QuoteAs to which one is definitive, always go with the source material

Why, though?
As an example, in the Stargate franchise, the original movie (the source material) has been heavily retconned by the subsequent SG-1 TV series. And yet, officially the TV series takes precedence over the movie, despite the movie coming first.
And if what you're saying is true, Ridley Scott (the Word of God on 'Blade Runner', according to you) is wrong when he says Deckard is a replicant, since he's disagreeing with the novel (the source material).

QuoteNone of them are "wrong" but the original formats hold precedence over others.

This sentence seems at odds with itself.

QuoteIt's one thing to stick to your guns, but I felt like as if we have strayed too far from the discussion intended-- the idea of a multiverse. If you don't like the idea of a multiverse, that's fine and that's all I need to know.

Fair enough. :)

Only Blade Runner is a completely different story from that of DADOES. So no, you're wrong.

And SG1 takes precedence over the original because it's not nearly as stupid.

Just like how Prometheus isn't nearly as stupid as AVPR.
So it should take precedence.


That's how fiction works, the superior works are favoured.

I agree with Xenomrph argument 99%

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 03, 2014, 06:31:46 PM
Only Blade Runner is a completely different story from that of DADOES. So no, you're wrong.

And SG1 takes precedence over the original because it's not nearly as stupid.

Just like how Prometheus isn't nearly as stupid as AVPR.
So it should take precedence.


That's how fiction works, the superior works are favoured.

You are not speaking for me or fans that like AvP:R...  To me Prometheus is stupid for being the most contradicting movie in the series.  I still overall like it but it ticks me off just watching it.  It is up in the air if humans were made by Pilots or that it was even Earth we saw at the beginning and what life they created or destroyed... However it is bad science to proclaim that humans and Pilots have identical dna, its not possible for humans themselves to have 100% identical dna between generations let alone shareing 100% same dna with old aliens that look like Tyrants from Resident Evil.

Take another look, it never says 100% match.
It just says match, as in Aliens that happen to have characteristics from earth.
Shaw also explains how they predate us "We come from them."

And much of Prometheus was meant to be up to interpretation.

And AVP already contradicted Alien 3 first (With Bishop) and used the Resurrection designs (Which also doesn't make sense
in Canon.) So as far as I'm concerned, with all the contradictions amd the low ratings the AVP films have they deserve to be flushed down the toilet into non-existance where they belong.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 03, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
I agree with Xenomrph argument 99%

Good for you.

QuoteYou are not speaking for me or fans that like AvP:R...  To me Prometheus is stupid for being the most contradicting movie in the series.  I still overall like it but it ticks me off just watching it.  It is up in the air if humans were made by Pilots or that it was even Earth we saw at the beginning and what life they created or destroyed... However it is bad science to proclaim that humans and Pilots have identical dna, its not possible for humans themselves to have 100% identical dna between generations let alone shareing 100% same dna with old aliens that look like Tyrants from Resident Evil.

The multiverse concept/theory takes care of that and then some.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 03, 2014, 08:55:37 PM
The multiverse concept/theory takes care of that and then some.

Precisely, and I agree that it's something which the franchises can benefit from. I really don't see a reason why people would want to oppose it other than it "sullying" their personal canon but if you ask me it's the best way to organize things with designated universes and concepts. Universes can share similarities and differences. Some can have extreme similarities, some can have extreme differences.

I'm interested to see what we get with that If it Bleeds chronology book.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 03, 2014, 10:11:11 PM
I'm interested to see what we get with that If it Bleeds chronology book.

Well that book is supposed to make an attempt to tie everything in together but is it official? No. None whatsoever.

Neither is the idea of a multiverse but if you ask me, tying everything together is just... absurd. Sure, if you want to do it for fun but for it to be taken seriously, especially when certain creators want their works to be distanced or wiped clean of previous entries? Yeah, I wouldn't subscribe to what that book maybe trying to pass off.

Oh I won't be taking it as gospel or anything; I subscribe to the multiverse idea myself. It'll just be fun to see how the author tackles things.

Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 03, 2014, 10:22:40 PM
Oh I won't be taking it as gospel or anything; I subscribe to the multiverse idea myself.

Glad to know you like the idea of a multiverse, even with the new novels, comic and Isolation coming out. I just feel that a multiverse would actually help make sense of things, especially considering how jumbled the franchises are.

It's hard to argue against a multiverse having read much of this thread.

I wonder if a "new 52" approach would work (or indeed a Crisis on Infinite Earths) in a few years time. I'd lean towards New 52 because you can keep the good stuff and get rid of the contradictions. (Though I wonder if the new comic run is going to do that anyway - not sure, I'm not up to speed on the comics).

Quote from: Russ on Mar 04, 2014, 10:57:04 AM
I wonder if a "new 52" approach would work (or indeed a Crisis on Infinite Earths) in a few years time. I'd lean towards New 52 because you can keep the good stuff and get rid of the contradictions. (Though I wonder if the new comic run is going to do that anyway - not sure, I'm not up to speed on the comics).

A multiverse doesn't have to have universes acknowledge one another. So really, there shouldn't be any real need for a Crisis on Infinite Earths thing happening because there are no real cosmic level threats in the Alien-Predator franchise.

As for the new comics being the "New 52" of the Alien-Predator franchise as far as Dark Horse is concerned-- that's essentially the best way to look at it. However the difference between the New 52 and the upcoming Alien-Predator comics is that the New 52 was written in to explain the reset button technique, where as the new Alien-Predator comics really just hit the reset button but doesn't have the reset written in and simply is meant to be reader friendly and to draw in newer readers. The old expanded universe stuff is simply being discontinued and no longer relevant. But according to AvP writer Christopher Sebela, the new stories don't retcon out the old stories or jettison them out of canon, but they don't connect with them either.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 03, 2014, 07:06:26 PM
Take another look, it never says 100% match.
It just says match, as in Aliens that happen to have characteristics from earth.
Shaw also explains how they predate us "We come from them."

And much of Prometheus was meant to be up to interpretation.

And AVP already contradicted Alien 3 first (With Bishop) and used the Resurrection designs (Which also doesn't make sense
in Canon.) So as far as I'm concerned, with all the contradictions amd the low ratings the AVP films have they deserve to be flushed down the toilet into non-existance where they belong.

It shows on the computer that it is a 100% match.

Their is nothing in AvP that conflicts with Alien 3.   Now the biggest contradiction is in Prometheus which is the evention of that machine that allows people to see other peoples thoughts and dreams.  It even allows people to have conversations with people in hypersleep.

This device would have changed the way law enforcement works.  In Aliens they would have hooked this up to Ripley and seen she was telling the thruth about the alien.

Nope, look again the DNA is different.

SM get in here.

Unless like was specifically repeated through-out Prometheus, the Prometheus is a prototype vessel.

Bishop is a human being in Alien3 as everyone has repeatedly said that is the contradiction with that horsesh*t AVP.

Prometheus fits in fine AVP DOES NOT.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 03, 2014, 08:55:37 PM

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 03, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
I agree with Xenomrph argument 99%

Good for you.

QuoteYou are not speaking for me or fans that like AvP:R...  To me Prometheus is stupid for being the most contradicting movie in the series.  I still overall like it but it ticks me off just watching it.  It is up in the air if humans were made by Pilots or that it was even Earth we saw at the beginning and what life they created or destroyed... However it is bad science to proclaim that humans and Pilots have identical dna, its not possible for humans themselves to have 100% identical dna between generations let alone shareing 100% same dna with old aliens that look like Tyrants from Resident Evil.

The multiverse concept/theory takes care of that and then some.

Their is a problem with just throwing this stuff into another universe.  Alot of it has been labeled as taking place in the same universe by offical sorices.

I agree their is a multiverse but the majority of things yall are saying are in diffrent universes are not in diffrent universes. 

---

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 04, 2014, 05:56:39 PM
Nope, look again the DNA is different.

SM get in here.

Unless like was specifically repeated through-out Prometheus, the Prometheus is a prototype vessel.

Bishop is a human being in Alien3 as everyone has repeatedly said that is the contradiction with that horsesh*t AVP.

Prometheus fits in fine AVP DOES NOT.

I already saw it, it shows a 100% match.

The device it self would be around 100 years old by the point in time in Aliens, their is no excuse for it not to be used on Ripley to see if she is telling the truth about the alien.

We are talking about two diffrent bishops that lived hundreds of years apart.  Besides I do think he is an android despite what he says based on the damage done to him.  His ballance would have been hampered if he didnt just die from the force of impact.

It says DNA match, it doesn't say 100% match.
And the bars that are put together are different in height and colour.
And as I explained before Shaw explains that we come from them because there DNA pre-dates ours, and is similar not an exact match. Also most creatures on earth share similar DNA.

Stop trying to find fault where there is none.

Unless like in Prometheus, everything was experimental only on the Prometheus and like the holograms that tech was wiped out with the Prometheus.

Or maybe like constantly emphasised after Peter Weyland's death the company shifted direction and made everything cheap for lower class citizens.

It doesn't matter why, but considering the state of W-Y it can't be considered a contradiction.

You know what can?
The fact there are two human Weylands who look exactly the same.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 04, 2014, 05:58:21 PM
Their is a problem with just throwing this stuff into another universe.  Alot of it has been labeled as taking place in the same universe by offical sorices.

I agree their is a multiverse but the majority of things yall are saying are in diffrent universes are not in diffrent universes. 

See here is the thing about that.. All of it happening in the same universe doesn't make sense because there are contradictions left and right, not to mention certain producers and directors of two certain films-- have adamantly stated that their movies do not connect with two black sheep films of the franchises, or each other (PREDATORS does not connect with Alien/Prometheus or Predator 2 to AvP-R, and Prometheus deliberately has nothing to do with Predator or AvP). And some of the expanded universe can be seen as apocryphal or even incompleted.

The franchise sort of has what the Godzilla series and Highlander franchise has going for them, and while those particular franchises hasn't explicitly stated that there is a multiverse at work-- it's generally accepted that there is one at work to explain the Showa, Heisei and Millennium series for Godzilla. Most especially the Millennium series. For Highlander, the same idea is used to explain the different timelines in the movies (especially Highlander 2: The Quickening and the three cuts of the film) and the series. The same logic can be applied to the Alien-Predator films.

For those who believe that a lot of things can work in the same universe.. I have a challenge. Bear in mind the franchise in question in regards to this challenge has nothing to do with Alien-Predator.. So, anyone game for this challenge?

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 04, 2014, 06:13:39 PM
It says DNA match, it doesn't say 100% match.
And the bars that are put together are different in height and colour.
And as I explained before Shaw explains that we come from them because there DNA pre-dates ours, and is similar not an exact match. Also most creatures on earth share similar DNA.

They are not at a diffrent height.  A famous Dr. picked this movie appart in his reveiw.  Their is no way humans should remotely resemble Pilots if humans came from them in the methed shown in the beginning of the film.

Quote
Stop trying to find fault where there is none.

Their is faults, Prometheus has the most contradictions out of the series.  It doesnt help that one of the writers said they were not obligated to stay true to alien, aliens, alien 3, AR, AvP, and AVPR

QuoteUnless like in Prometheus, everything was experimental only on the Prometheus and like the holograms that tech was wiped out with the Prometheus.

So they took all the designers and blue prints of all the machines on the Prometheus with them... -_-

QuoteOr maybe like constantly emphasised after Peter Weyland's death the company shifted direction and made everything cheap for lower class citizens.

This has nothing to do with Law enforcement.  Weyland Industries and later the WY Industries and their subs have always been fixated on building better worlds and getting their hands on the Yautja and Xenomorphs.

QuoteIt doesn't matter why, but considering the state of W-Y it can't be considered a contradiction.

And what state would that be?

QuoteYou know what can?
The fact there are two human Weylands who look exactly the same.

I already explaned this issue beside the fact they are related and can have a similar apperance.

Hahahahahahaha!

You honestly... Omg...

Your argument is laughable, I'm done here.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 04, 2014, 06:35:57 PM


Hahahahahahaha!

You honestly... Omg...

Your argument is laughable, I'm done here.

Explain

Why they didnt use that device to see if Ripley was telling the thruth.

Why do Pilots look dramatically diffrent between Alien and Prometheus

Why are the Pilot ships internal structures diffrent between Alien and Prometheus, they show that Pilot ships are alike in Prometheus.

Why do the Marines not use the pups for finding hostiles in Aliens

Why do pilot talk diffrent between Alien and Prometheus  the sounds they make in alien could never be replicated by humans.

Their is more issues if you want to see them

Don't bother, all of Prometheus' issues have been explained before by members on this board.

Go ask SM, he has all the information.

And don't bother replying again your repeated asking of the same Question has made me consider you as a troll. So you'll be on my ignore list from now on.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 04, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Don't bother, all of Prometheus' issues have been explained before by members on this board.

Go ask SM, he has all the information.

And don't bother replying again your repeated asking of the same Question has made me consider you as a troll. So you'll be on my ignore list from now on.

SM will not have the answer.  JFYI the block doesnt work since I have used it and it does nothing.  Look at Spread Eagle he blocked me along time ago and he just responded to my post.

One thing that bugs me is that in the past, and this goes for the OP, people agianst one universe unity has said that  anyone who trys to amend falsley conseved contradictions or legit issues is doing nothing more than making fan fiction.   I could easily do the samething if anyone trys to amend canon issues with Promethues and other movies its supposed to be connected to I wont because that would be disrespectful.

It does work, but I can choose to see your post and Reply. Just FYI.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 04, 2014, 07:34:17 PM
It does work, but I can choose to see your post and Reply. Just FYI.

Yeah sure... -_-

Go ahead, try it for yourself. Ignore me. It works.

Guys, try to keep things civil and don't ruin a good discussion to whether or not a multiverse exist.  :-\

DARTH RINZLER:
Ok. Everything that is stamped as official source material is labeled as canon by FOX. Read, official source material.

However, they haven't offered to tie it all together into one singular continuity, simply because it is impossible and would need them to demolish all the franchises and then patch them together, retconned piece by retconned piece, in order to form an unified solid canon/universe/continuity that isn't ultra contrived and laughably ridiculous. The only explanations on how it all fits together are delivered by fellow fans (such as you, Predxeno & Xenomrph), which are no more official and no less unofficial than any other fan's ideas and explanations. In other words it is just fanon and not canon.

As it is right now everything official is labeled as canon, but it is up to fanon to make it work since the Alien original movies make it impossible for any EU material or AvP to be a part of the same world and continuity. PREDATORS and PROMETHEUS made it even more obvious (especially Prometgeus), as if A3 and A:R wasn't painstakingly obvious enough. Then you have all the EU materiel contradicting other EU sources in an almost violent manner. At least according to me.

In such a climate you get three different breeds of fans. You got the ones who go with FOX's canon claim and come up with elaborate fanon to stitch this minced Frankenstein's Monster together. Then you have the purists who only count the original movies of each franchise, with each franchise separated from each other, as canon. Then you have people who rather just pick and patch their canon together into a selective fanon (or "personal canon"). It's all ok, fine and dandy until canon itself becomes a big deal and splits the fan base. The multiverse concept however validates everyone's fanon ("personal canon") as canon as long, at least as long as the source material is canon. Offers more freedom to everyone, including script writers.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 04, 2014, 09:28:37 PM
In such a climate you get three different breeds of fans. You got the ones who go with FOX's canon claim and come up with elaborate canon to stitch this minced Frankenstein's Monster together. Then you have the purists who only count the original movies of each franchise, with each franchise separated from each other, as canon. Then you have people who rather just pick and patch their canon together into a selective fanon (or "personal canon"). It's all ok, fine and dandy until canon itself becomes a big deal and splits the fan base. The multiverse concept however validates everyone's fanon ("personal canon") as canon as long, at least as long as the source material is canon. Offers more freedom to everyone, including script writers.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi401.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp93%2Fway_uphigh05%2Fclap.gif&hash=61e852d3c841d14dfffafb8da1a444b519ffe3bf)

QuoteTheir is no way humans should remotely resemble Pilots if humans came from them in the methed shown in the beginning of the film.

What method is this?

QuoteWeyland Industries and later the WY Industries and their subs have always been fixated on building better worlds and getting their hands on the Yautja and Xenomorphs.

When was Weyland trying to get their hands on Predators?  They've never been fixated on getting Aliens.  Only after they see the opportunity in Alien3 do they truly pursue it.

QuoteWhy they didnt use that device to see if Ripley was telling the thruth.

What device?

QuoteWhy do Pilots look dramatically diffrent between Alien and Prometheus

They don't look dramatically different.

QuoteWhy are the Pilot ships internal structures diffrent between Alien and Prometheus, they show that Pilot ships are alike in Prometheus.

Different ships.

QuoteWhy do the Marines not use the pups for finding hostiles in Aliens

They wouldn't have worked.  The marines looked straight at the Aliens and never noticed them.  How would a PUP be able to see them?

QuoteWhy do pilot talk diffrent between Alien and Prometheus  the sounds they make in alien could never be replicated by humans.

How do you know the Pilot was talking in Alien?

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 04, 2014, 09:28:37 PM
DARTH RINZLER:
Ok. Everything that is stamped as official source material is labeled as canon by FOX. Read, official source material.

However, they haven't offered to tie it all together into one singular continuity, simply because it is impossible and would need them to demolish all the franchises and then patch them together, retconned piece by retconned piece, in order to form an unified solid canon/universe/continuity that isn't ultra contrived and laughably ridiculous. The only explanations on how it all fits together are delivered by fellow fans (such as you, Predxeno & Xenomrph), which are no more official and no less unofficial than any other fan's ideas and explanations. In other words it is just fanon and not canon.

That's not exactly true though, during the making of ACM they said the games, comics, and novels are source materiel AND take place in the same universe.  In order for it to take place in the same universe, it must occupy time and space in that universe, if it doesn't then it is not in the same universe.  Them saying its in the same universe already makes it impossible for these other mediums to be in a different universe except for movie tie in games and storys I do agree take place in other universes like Green Lanterns Darkest Night three aliens and a Predator joined Sinsetro and they were not spoof characters ether they were drawn correctly.  They may or may not had started their lives in the primary universe BUT they are now living in the Primary DC universe.  Theirs a couple things pointing to Predators being inter-universal travelers, like Big Mama having Marvel and Dc characters as trophies.  Those characters where not from the 616 nor prime DC universe but that's the thing about Multiverses their are unlimited versions of a universe.  Think of it as a color theory wheel on super solider steroids.  Some universes will be nearly identical other be the opposite, but what is opposite?  It could be lifeless, energy-less, mater-less, it could have opposite colors, opposite events, ect.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 04, 2014, 09:28:37 PM
As it is right now everything official is labeled as canon, but it is up to fanon to make it work since the Alien original movies make it impossible for any EU material or AvP to be a part of the same world and continuity. PREDATORS and PROMETHEUS made it even more obvious (especially Prometgeus), as if A3 and A:R wasn't painstakingly obvious enough. Then you have all the EU materiel contradicting other EU sources in an almost violent manner. At least according to me.

I wouldn't consider it fanon making since of things.  Here is the deal, many different fictions have different rules for how their story's work, Foxs stance on how canon functions is akin to fairytales, its just and art style.  I have a question for you, X-men follow the same style when it comes to canon, do you consider a lot of those movies noncanon with each-other since story's and characters change dramatically, take Beast for instance he is in four movies now the first one he was a normal guy, next you got frazer, and then you got this cat like Beast that is in the next two or three films.

I think that is your hang up, this is not to be taken as an insult, but you believe that every fictional thing you watch or read must have perfect unison when it comes to facts, would this be and incorrect statement?

The problem is every story made is not perfect like that, and you got some that go out of their way to be deceptive like 40k that's their canon style older is truer everything is exaggerated and lies can be more true than truth.  Does the canon style of 40k bug you?

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 04, 2014, 09:28:37 PM
In such a climate you get three different breeds of fans. You got the ones who go with FOX's canon claim and come up with elaborate fanon to stitch this minced Frankenstein's Monster together.

But you said above that its your point of view that makes it appear to be Frankensteish, there alot of us that don't see it that way.  Besides I respect the writers and the work they do, it would be disservice to ignore the work they have done for the series.  This excludes arrogant writers that pop up from time to time bashing other writers of the series cough cough Rodriquez cough cough.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 04, 2014, 09:28:37 PM
Then you have the purists who only count the original movies of each franchise, with each franchise separated from each other, as canon. Then you have people who rather just pick and patch their canon together into a selective fanon (or "personal canon"). It's all ok, fine and dandy until canon itself becomes a big deal and splits the fan base. The multiverse concept however validates everyone's fanon ("personal canon") as canon as long, at least as long as the source material is canon. Offers more freedom to everyone, including script writers.

No matter how it's sliced it will cause problems.  To sum it up if we are having a conversation about lets say Ranger Aliens, my new all time favorite alien, and someone says to me "sorry I am talking about the official universe so you can't talk about Ranger Aliens"  The only thing you would have changed is that instead of them saying I am talking about noncanon aliens, is now I am not talking about primary universe aliens.

---

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
What method is this?

The one shown at the beginning of the film IF that was what they are doing, but odds are they didn't make humans.  Anyway this what Neil DeGrasse Tyson said about what was seen in the beging of the film

Quote" He notes that the early scene in which the origins of human life are explored is unrealistic in one regard: "The unrealistic part of it is that it's a humanoid alien planting DNA seeds to seed all of life on Earth. And most life on Earth is not humanoid. In fact, most life on earth is plant and bacterial. So if they were to represent that accurately, it would be some kind of bacterium dropping its DNA into the oceans of Earth."

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
When was Weyland trying to get their hands on Predators?  They've never been fixated on getting Aliens.  Only after they see the opportunity in Alien3 do they truly pursue it.

Its implied in AvP, they knew something was not normal about the dig.  Their is a good chance Charles had been researching the incidents involving predators, and he wanted to get his hands on their tech.  It may had started as a hobby seeing the news about people being skinned alive but after awhile he knew it was not a human doing the killings.

As for the Xenomorph their were interested in it before Ripley even made it back her seconded time around LV-426, Possible even sooner than the Prometheus crew being sent out too LV-223 since on the website it says they where getting a signal from LV-426. 

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
What device?

The device that lets people know your memories, see your dreams, and even communicate with people in hyper-sleep.

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
They don't look dramatically different.

They do though, one looks like a T-00 Tyrant form Resident Evil, the other looks like a very tall huge humanoid with elephant features.  No matter how Scott tries to slice it you can tell the thing is not wearing a helmet.

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
Different ships.

Then why do all the other ships have the same layout?

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
They wouldn't have worked.  The marines looked straight at the Aliens and never noticed them.  How would a PUP be able to see them?

You are assuming they would have known that the Pups would not work.  If that is the case they wouldn't have used Infrared sensors since that didn't work ether.  The Marines should be using them when fighting multiple types of combatants including humans like Bugboys but they are not.

Quote from: SM on Mar 04, 2014, 10:48:38 PM
How do you know the Pilot was talking in Alien?

This is based on the signal the crew is listening too before it is deciphered as a warning.

Now another crucial thing to point out is that the Weyland in A3 can't be human, unless he is a clone, is because in Prometheus Peter himself says the David android is the closest thing to son he has.  Since he is an android and Peter and his daughter died in Prometheus, he can't be a retaliative that came about normal means.

Since it was made canon that WY because of Weyland Industries payed homage to Charles Weyland by making androids based off him, probably because out of the two him and Peter he was more significant, it is possible this extended further by them finally also making clones of him OR this whole time every Weyland that claims to be living relatives is really an android, and this is how Charles got his immortality, he has his memories recorded and then implanted in a newer Android body.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 06, 2014, 07:54:26 PM
That's not exactly true though, during the making of ACM they said the games, comics, and novels are source materiel AND take place in the same universe.  In order for it to take place in the same universe, it must occupy time and space in that universe, if it doesn't then it is not in the same universe.

That's what I said. FOX says that everything is canon but it is up to the fans to explain how it all fits together. Fan based explanations = fanon.

QuoteThem saying its in the same universe already makes it impossible for these other mediums to be in a different universe except for movie tie in games and storys I do agree take place in other universes like Green Lanterns Darkest Night three aliens and a Predator joined Sinsetro and they were not spoof characters ether they were drawn correctly.  They may or may not had started their lives in the primary universe BUT they are now living in the Primary DC universe.  Theirs a couple things pointing to Predators being inter-universal travelers, like Big Mama having Marvel and Dc characters as trophies.  Those characters where not from the 616 nor prime DC universe but that's the thing about Multiverses their are unlimited versions of a universe.  Think of it as a color theory wheel on super solider steroids.  Some universes will be nearly identical other be the opposite, but what is opposite?  It could be lifeless, energy-less, mater-less, it could have opposite colors, opposite events, ect.

?

QuoteI wouldn't consider it fanon making since of things.  Here is the deal, many different fictions have different rules for how their story's work.

So FOX has announced that fan based explanations to how everything fits together (i.e. fanon) is now official canon? If that's the case the who/which fan's explanation/fanon is the canon one???

QuoteFoxs stance on how canon functions is akin to fairytales, its just and art style.

You'll have to elaborate more on that. Not sure I am getting what you are trying to say.

QuoteI have a question for you, X-men follow the same style when it comes to canon, do you consider a lot of those movies noncanon with each-other since story's and characters change dramatically, take Beast for instance he is in four movies now the first one he was a normal guy, next you got frazer, and then you got this cat like Beast that is in the next two or three films.

I'm the wrong person to ask since I know very little about Marvel/X-Men, DC comics etc.

QuoteI think that is your hang up, this is not to be taken as an insult, but you believe that every fictional thing you watch or read must have perfect unison when it comes to facts, would this be and incorrect statement?

Incorrect statement.

QuoteThe problem is every story made is not perfect like that, and you got some that go out of their way to be deceptive like 40k that's their canon style older is truer everything is exaggerated and lies can be more true than truth.  Does the canon style of 40k bug you?

What?

QuoteBut you said above that its your point of view that makes it appear to be Frankensteish, there alot of us that don't see it that way.  Besides I respect the writers and the work they do, it would be disservice to ignore the work they have done for the series.  This excludes arrogant writers that pop up from time to time bashing other writers of the series cough cough Rodriquez cough cough.

What does multiverse have to do with it?

QuoteNo matter how it's sliced it will cause problems.  To sum it up if we are having a conversation about lets say Ranger Aliens, my new all time favorite alien, and someone says to me "sorry I am talking about the official universe so you can't talk about Ranger Aliens"  The only thing you would have changed is that instead of them saying I am talking about noncanon aliens, is now I am not talking about primary universe aliens.

I'm getting the feeling you're not really getting the concept of a multiverse. In a multiverse there are no primary or secondary universes/canons. You can however divide them into different more or less inclusive/exclusive universes, or just one big bizzaro world one where anything and everything goes.

However, when talking about Aliens from the Alien movies (ALIEN, ALIENS, A3 & A:R, and possibly PROMETHEUS) it is implied that your Ranger Aliens are not welcome since they don't appear in the movies, which one could call the "Ellen Ripley Universe" or the "Quadrology Universe", or something else in that direction.

Rinzler, I have to ask.. Is English not  your first language, because I have some difficulty in getting the point which you are trying to get across and I'm not sure if you are understanding what we are trying to say. I'm not asking out of malice or an attempt to troll here but I am asking out of genuine curiosity because I think there is some sort of language barrier going on here?

QuoteThe one shown at the beginning of the film IF that was what they are doing, but odds are they didn't make humans.  Anyway this what Neil DeGrasse Tyson said about what was seen in the beging of the film

DeGrasse Tyson has misread the opening.  There is already life on that planet and Riddles has it's not necessarily Earth.

QuoteIts implied in AvP, they knew something was not normal about the dig.  Their is a good chance Charles had been researching the incidents involving predators, and he wanted to get his hands on their tech.  It may had started as a hobby seeing the news about people being skinned alive but after awhile he knew it was not a human doing the killings.

All speculatory.

QuoteAs for the Xenomorph their were interested in it before Ripley even made it back her seconded time around LV-426, Possible even sooner than the Prometheus crew being sent out too LV-223 since on the website it says they where getting a signal from LV-426. 

There's no indication they knew anything about the Alien.

QuoteThe device that lets people know your memories, see your dreams, and even communicate with people in hyper-sleep.

Dreams aren't literal, as shown at the start of Aliens.

QuoteThey do though, one looks like a T-00 Tyrant form Resident Evil, the other looks like a very tall huge humanoid with elephant features.  No matter how Scott tries to slice it you can tell the thing is not wearing a helmet.

Denial.

QuoteThen why do all the other ships have the same layout?

Which 'all other' ships?  The Derelict and Juggernaut could've been built millennia apart.  The Juggernaut is markedly larger than the Derelict and has a circular shape compared to the U-shape of the latter.

QuoteYou are assuming they would have known that the Pups would not work.  If that is the case they wouldn't have used Infrared sensors since that didn't work ether.  The Marines should be using them when fighting multiple types of combatants including humans like Bugboys but they are not.

You can make up reasons they should've been using them just the same way as I can make up reasons for them not.    We know they wouldn't have shown anything in the hive, so maybe they've been deployed before in other missions and been found wanting so they don't bother with them anymore.

QuoteThis is based on the signal the crew is listening too before it is deciphered as a warning.

And Lambert says, "Maybe it's a voice?"  ie. They don't know if it's a voice or not, so your point carries no weight.

QuoteNow another crucial thing to point out is that the Weyland in A3 can't be human, unless he is a clone, is because in Prometheus Peter himself says the David android is the closest thing to son he has.  Since he is an android and Peter and his daughter died in Prometheus, he can't be a retaliative that came about normal means.

Since it was made canon that WY because of Weyland Industries payed homage to Charles Weyland by making androids based off him, probably because out of the two him and Peter he was more significant, it is possible this extended further by them finally also making clones of him OR this whole time every Weyland that claims to be living relatives is really an android, and this is how Charles got his immortality, he has his memories recorded and then implanted in a newer Android body.

Since Prometheus pointedly ignored AvP, Michael Bishop in Alien3 is the human designer of the Bishop model android.  No relation to Weyland.

QuoteSince Prometheus pointedly ignored AvP, Michael Bishop in Alien3 is the human designer of the Bishop model android.  No relation to Weyland.

While this does straight up resolve PerfectOrganism's complaint about 'AvP' contradicting 'Alien3', it's probably worth mentioning that he's Michael Bishop Weyland as far as 'Aliens: Colonial Marines' is concerned. :P

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 07, 2014, 07:17:35 AM
While this does straight up resolve PerfectOrganism's complaint about 'AvP' contradicting 'Alien3', it's probably worth mentioning that he's Michael Bishop Weyland as far as 'Aliens: Colonial Marines' is concerned. :P

I was just about to mention that.

But then again.. who really considers Aliens: Colonial Marines as canon considering how awful the game was? I'm sure there are a few people who do consider it canon.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 07, 2014, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 07, 2014, 07:17:35 AM
While this does straight up resolve PerfectOrganism's complaint about 'AvP' contradicting 'Alien3', it's probably worth mentioning that he's Michael Bishop Weyland as far as 'Aliens: Colonial Marines' is concerned. :P

I was just about to mention that.

But then again.. who really considers Aliens: Colonial Marines as canon considering how awful the game was? I'm sure there are a few people who do consider it canon.

I'm willing to. I ultimately didn't have a big problem with the game. It's got issues, but so does 'Alien Resurrection' or 'AvP' and I'm fine with those.

I just want to say that there is no franchise which is consistently perfect. I don't even think that Star Wars even could be considered perfect despite the years of LucasArts maintaining their continuity-- I'm sure there are some snags here and there. So having that said, I can admit there are some mistakes in the Alien-Predator franchise. But then there are just some stories which.. stray a little too far from the source material, namely the films.

I will admit, I am on and off about accepting Aliens: Colonial Marines as canon. At first I was willing to accept it as canon but a lot of people have pointed out major flaws here and there and then there was the retconning of Hicks' death. At first I was actually excited to know that he had survived but seeing the way it was hand waved, and then later on attempted to be explained in Stasis Interrupted but.. that raised more questions than answers. I'm still indecisive about Colonial Marines.

As for the Charles Bishop Weyland, Michael Bishop Weyland and even Karl Bishop Weyland... I am willing to accept that as canon but I do acknowledge that Prometheus sort of interrupts that. I don't see both ideas being able to be reconciled, but perhaps in the multiverse concept/theory which I have presented-- maybe both ideas could work but separately in different universes.

I know, I know.. you don't like the concept/theory but you are in a thread which discusses it.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
That's what I said. FOX says that everything is canon but it is up to the fans to explain how it all fits together. Fan based explanations = fanon.

I just think it's a bit harsh to label it as fanon.  Speculation is a more appropriate word.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
?

I was being very brief with the mechanics behind a multiverse.  I have been studying them, mechanics, for a very good while now.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
So FOX has announced that fan based explanations to how everything fits together (i.e. fanon) is now official canon? If that's the case the who/which fan's explanation/fanon is the canon one???

No but that is what is so cool about the style of story telling.  Talking about the how they connect and the implications for these events and what they mean for the future stories.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
You'll have to elaborate more on that. Not sure I am getting what you are trying to say.

Well with that style of story telling the story's are all canon with each other but at the same time they are not meant to focus on one set protagonist or events that that one protagonist has been through.  When other characters are written into this universe and they are doing their own set things that generally only effect them.  The usually only consistence are the antagonist, in this case Xenomorphs, Predators, Pilots, Engineers, people with lots of money, and later a galactic military.  The story is meant to be from the set protagonist perspective literally, which is why they will make in universe mistakes.

A good example of what I am trying to explain is the Russian Witch Baba Yaga.  She is mostly written as an antagonist, but there a few story's where she is in a good mood and will help the main character.  This changes often especially since she was so feared that she, and her walking house,  started making her way into Chinese folklore because the Russian traders would tell Chinese traders about her and the many different stories about her.  They took what stood out the most about her and wrote them into her story's from their perspective.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
I'm the wrong person to ask since I know very little about Marvel/X-Men, DC comics etc.

It's ok we are only talking about the primary marvel movieverse.  Here is another example.  In the first Wolverine prequel at the end of the movie he is shot in the head with a special bullet that causes him to forget everything about himself, also we see Professor Xavier saving some mutant children and he is able to walk.  This movie takes place in 1979.  X-Men first class, which takes place in 1960s, shows at the end Professor Xavier getting hit in the back by a deflected bullet which permanently paralyzed him.  Also in the 2nd Wolverine prequel we see that Wolverine still has memories of fighting in Japan in world war II including when we survived one the atomic bombs going off because he was in that area. 

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
What?

Yeah the creators form G.W.S. have said a couple of times that is how their canon works.  Last I checked they had to a question in regards to novels and canon.  The novels are less canon, feat wise at least, than source books and those books already have exaggerated feats and events.  To top it off they will change a bit of information or remove a lot of it, but that fits with what they have said about their canon "older is more canon"  the first books were filled with a lot of information that explains things that would be considered a mystery to new fans that have no contact with people with the older books.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
I'm getting the feeling you're not really getting the concept of a multiverse. In a multiverse there are no primary or secondary universes/canons. You can however divide them into different more or less inclusive/exclusive universes, or just one big bizzaro world one where anything and everything goes.

If we are talking about a point of origin their is always a primary universe.  If you were able to go to another universe right now, this universe you have lived in you whole life would be your primary universe.  The events we see that take place in fictional works we like are taking place in that works primary universe.  Most the time you wont hear that term, or terms like it, unless they bring in multi-unversel travelers or they travel to other universes themselves.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 06, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
However, when talking about Aliens from the Alien movies (ALIEN, ALIENS, A3 & A:R, and possibly PROMETHEUS) it is implied that your Ranger Aliens are not welcome since they don't appear in the movies, which one could call the "Ellen Ripley Universe" or the "Quadrology Universe", or something else in that direction.

Yes that universe exists, and so do many variations of it, its just not the primary universe.  Like I was saying though this is still going to cause as many problems as it was when people would just say they are having a canon only conversation.

---

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 06, 2014, 10:28:07 PM
Rinzler, I have to ask.. Is English not  your first language, because I have some difficulty in getting the point which you are trying to get across and I'm not sure if you are understanding what we are trying to say. I'm not asking out of malice or an attempt to troll here but I am asking out of genuine curiosity because I think there is some sort of language barrier going on here?

Yes its my first language, BUT since I use and Xbox a lot I cut corners with grammar and spelling because its a pain in the but to type with a game controller.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 07, 2014, 07:17:35 AM

QuoteSince Prometheus pointedly ignored AvP, Michael Bishop in Alien3 is the human designer of the Bishop model android.  No relation to Weyland.

While this does straight up resolve PerfectOrganism's complaint about 'AvP' contradicting 'Alien3', it's probably worth mentioning that he's Michael Bishop Weyland as far as 'Aliens: Colonial Marines' is concerned. :P

AVP however still contradicts Prometheus, due to AVP taking place in 2004 and Weyland's company only being founded in 2012.

I think you have the right to like whatever you wish but I'm kinda glad Prometheus and AVP don't exist in the same canon.
Elements of the two films are so similar you could almost mistake them for alternate universe versions of each other.

Hell, somedays I can even have fun watching AVP but I will never consider it in the same timeline as Prometheus.
Just for sh.ts'n'giggles here's my two personal head canons:

Predator
Predator2
AVP (2004)
Predators
Alien
Aliens
Alien3
AVP (2010)
Alien: Resurrection

But as far as my serious canon goes:

Predator
Predator 2
Predator 3 (Hopefully)
Predators
Prometheus
Paradise (Hopefully)
P-3 (Hopefully)
Alien
Aliens
Alien3
(Then I hope they make a good AVP)

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
Dreams aren't literal, as shown at the start of Aliens.

But the device does more than just allows people to see their dreams, you can see their memories and even talk to people that are in hyper sleep with it.

Lets just focus on that aspect anyway, lets say it only does see people dreams.  If her dreams were recorded and analyzed, they would recognize that she is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.  They would recognize that she was having dreams about this same horrific creature killing her or her crew, over and over again, the same creature she claims really did come aboard her ship and kill her crew.  You don't just have traumatic dreams like she is have about something you just made up. The outcome of the court case would have turned out differently and they wouldn't have passively threatened her that she wasn't going to be charged with willful destruction of property and 2nd or 1st degree murder of her crew.   

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
Denial.

They look different to me, very different.  If it were just acid damage done to the helmet that revealed the mouth you would still be able to see the outer layer of the helmet, maybe even some cross sections, but you don't see anything like that.  Its all one thing and it looks like flesh.

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
Which 'all other' ships?  The Derelict and Juggernaut could've been built millennia apart.  The Juggernaut is markedly larger than the Derelict and has a circular shape compared to the U-shape of the latter.

But that is not what they are implying in the movie and website, they are all supposed to be the same age, going by carbon dating.  Unless of course the material she tested has a decay rate unknown to modern science.

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
You can make up reasons they should've been using them just the same way as I can make up reasons for them not.    We know they wouldn't have shown anything in the hive, so maybe they've been deployed before in other missions and been found wanting so they don't bother with them anymore.

Why would WY mercs still use them for tactical reasons?

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
And Lambert says, "Maybe it's a voice?"  ie. They don't know if it's a voice or not, so your point carries no weight.

That was their first analysis of the transmission.  If you have heard radio signals before you would know that's not what they sound like.  I think they were assuming they were hearing the signal not the actual message ie voice.  Unless they were using some sort of binary code or primary numbers code their is no real way for the computer to have deciphered the message as a warning if what you where hearing was the radio signal and not the message.

Quote from: SM on Mar 06, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
Since Prometheus pointedly ignored AvP, Michael Bishop in Alien3 is the human designer of the Bishop model android.  No relation to Weyland.

Well Xenomrph already pointed out what I would have pointed out.  I also would like to point out that the writers gave the same level of respect to the AvP movies as they did to Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Alien Res.  They are canon but they didn't feel obligated to stay true to a single one of those movies.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
AVP however still contradicts Prometheus, due to AVP taking place in 2004 and Weyland's company only being founded in 2012.

Well the idea of a multiverse allows both to happen, provided that they are not necessarily in either the same timeline or even the same universe. You can have both, but choose which one you want to really follow because in a multiverse, both happen in their own isolated universes. Either way, Weyland-Yutani still happens in both of them.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
I think you have the right to like whatever you wish but I'm kinda glad Prometheus and AVP don't exist in the same canon.

You're missing PREDATORS since that doesn't follow with Predator 2 and is more like what Godzilla 1985/The Return of Godzilla is to the original 1954 Godzilla movie. So it's a different path in continuity, or at least intended to be-- something which a lot of people seemingly want to overlook. But you are right, Prometheus, PREDATORS, and AvP don't and likely can't exist in the same canon based on where Rodriguez and Ridley Scott want their works to stand.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
Elements of the two films are so similar you could almost mistake them for alternate universe versions of each other.

Unintentionally, that might as well be the case. Which is why we are discussing the idea of a multiverse to begin with and what fans thoughts are on the idea or even concept of it.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
Hell, somedays I can even have fun watching AVP but I will never consider it in the same timeline as Prometheus.

They're not intended to be, since Ridley Scott wanted his movie to essentially have nothing to do with Alien vs Predator. However not only could this be seen as an alternate universe, but perhaps an alternate timeline as well. The more and more I look at this, the more and more it's looking like what the Godzilla series has going for it but for Alien-Predator.

Is there any reasons in-universe why Predators doesn't fit with Predator 2?

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 11:31:02 PM
Is there any reasons in-universe why Predators doesn't fit with Predator 2?

I would think that the events of Los Angeles 1997 would've been mentioned by Isabelle, especially considering the fact how big that event was with the mass ritualistic killings which were documented and even broadcasted on live television. Not to mention the fact that Keyes team would've likely documented the entire event and given a debriefing to whoever at the time had deployed them to apprehend Ghost Predator.

If it was meant to follow Predator 2, I just find it very inconvenient that Isabelle had either not opted to mention the events of Los Angeles 1997. And seeing as she was Mossad, along with the information of Guatemala 1987, she should have known about the events of Los Angeles 1997 since it had shed a lot more light on the creature. If she knew about the events of Guatemala 1987 to the briefed details, then why wouldn't she know about she events of Los Angeles 1997 unless they never happened? You could argue that they were covered up, but the same argue should be applied to the events of 1987 since encounters like that are usually sealed off and kept hush-hush, and she wouldn't (or shouldn't) have known that many details about 1987 either. But conveniently.. she does. Down to intricate details.

But a lot of people argue nothing in the movie contradicts Predator 2 and could fit.. but according to Rodriguez, it ignores Predator 2.

It's quite clear it ignores Predator 2 I see, but it doesn't contradict it directly.

I honestly just want a Predator 3, then Predators can equal the Alien Resurrection of the series, literally.
And I'd organise them in that order too lol.

But we're getting into a whole canon debate.. Something which I wanted to avoid.

All I wanted to know was this, how do the fans feel about a multiverse as a means to explain and perhaps organize the canon? According to the polls here and hosted on my DA page, a lot of fans feel that there either should be a multiverse addressed, or that there is one already operating but not necessarily mentioned. However there are a vocal few who are against the idea.

Since the introduction of PREDATORS and Prometheus, it seems that this may have unintentionally created alternate universes or alternate timelines. This isn't the first time that something like this has happened in film franchises. I bring up Godzilla a lot because I feel that there are similarities to how entries in the franchises are treated-- and there are alternate universes/timelines going on.

Perhaps we could use the concept of a multiverse to make sense of things? I don't know.. I can't speak for the fandom. But it really seems like a useful tool to have on board to hopefully sort things out.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 07, 2014, 10:15:39 PM
I just think it's a bit harsh to label it as fanon.  Speculation is a more appropriate word.

It's not just mere speculation when you retcon and make up things from scratch (...in order to make things fit...), is it?

QuoteNo but that is what is so cool about the style of story telling.  Talking about the how they connect and the implications for these events and what they mean for the future stories.

And why would a multiverse stand in the way of that?

QuoteWell with that style of story telling the story's are all canon with each other but at the same time they are not meant to focus on one set protagonist or events that that one protagonist has been through.  When other characters are written into this universe and they are doing their own set things that generally only effect them.  The usually only consistence are the antagonist, in this case Xenomorphs, Predators, Pilots, Engineers, people with lots of money, and later a galactic military.  The story is meant to be from the set protagonist perspective literally, which is why they will make in universe mistakes.

A good example of what I am trying to explain is the Russian Witch Baba Yaga.  She is mostly written as an antagonist, but there a few story's where she is in a good mood and will help the main character.  This changes often especially since she was so feared that she, and her walking house,  started making her way into Chinese folklore because the Russian traders would tell Chinese traders about her and the many different stories about her.  They took what stood out the most about her and wrote them into her story's from their perspective.

So in other words you're pretty much advocating the multiverse concept indirectly...

QuoteIt's ok we are only talking about the primary marvel movieverse.  Here is another example.  In the first Wolverine prequel at the end of the movie he is shot in the head with a speci---

I really don't care. Sorry.

QuoteYeah the creators form G.W.S. have said a couple of times that is how their canon works.  Last I checked they had to a question in regards to novels and canon.  The novels are less canon, feat wise at least, than source books and those books already have exaggerated feats and events.  To top it off they will change a bit of information or remove a lot of it, but that fits with what they have said about their canon "older is more canon"  the first books were filled with a lot of information that explains things that would be considered a mystery to new fans that have no contact with people with the older books.

???

QuoteIf we are talking about a point of origin their is always a primary universe.  If you were able to go to another universe right now, this universe you have lived in you whole life would be your primary universe.  The events we see that take place in fictional works we like are taking place in that works primary universe.  Most the time you wont hear that term, or terms like it, unless they bring in multi-unversel travelers or they travel to other universes themselves.

...ok, too tired to repeat myself, so I'll just pass this one for now. But feel free to re-read the posts of RakaiThwei about the multiverse concept. They're pretty spot on.

QuoteYes that universe exists, and so do many variations of it, its just not the primary universe.  Like I was saying though this is still going to cause as many problems as it was when people would just say they are having a canon only conversation.

Not if it is truly a multiverse where there are no primary or secondary universes. So what if there is one universe where the original four Alien movies (...and Prometheus) are the only canonical sources contributing to that specific universe's continuity and timeline when there is another universe where everything goes? You can have it both ways without infringing on each other.

QuoteBut then there are just some stories which.. stray a little too far from the source material, namely the films.

I don't think anything should be beholden to "the source material", that's sort of the point of a shared universe - different people get to take a crack at their own interpretations of the concepts.

That's the approach Transformers takes (and it's way better for it - the current Transformers comics from the last year or so are hands-down the absolute best Transformers fiction that's ever been written in the 30 years of the franchise. I'm not even exaggerating here, modern Transformers comics are completely fantastic and everyone should read them), and it's the approach Star Wars is going to take.

There are other storylines that have followed from later sources rather than the original "source material" - the book '2010' follows the movie '2001' more closely than it follows the original '2001' book (although to be fair both of those were written in parallel, and are essentially both "the source material").
Incidentally Arthur C Clarke did clarify discrepancies between each of the Odyssey books by outright saying they happen in different universes. :P

Similarly, Stargate-SG1 contradicts stuff from the "source material" original movie.

QuoteAVP however still contradicts Prometheus, due to AVP taking place in 2004 and Weyland's company only being founded in 2012.

Peter Weyland's company was formed in 2012, that doesn't preclude the existence of Charles Bishop Weyland's company.

It's worth pointing out that the entire Weyland website is written like a whitewashed corporate PR document (in a world where the same company controls the media, no less) and is hardly meant to be taken as absolute literal fact. The movie 'Prometheus' outright contradicts the way the "Prometheus" mission is described on the Weyland website, and I'm confident that wasn't by accident. The Weyland site describes a company and a world that's a bright shining beacon of hope and human achievement, and 'Prometheus' (and 'Alien', and pretty much all the movies in the series) are explicitly shown as being pretty much the opposite of that. :P
It stands to reason that if the Weyland site is whitewashing everything and bending the truth to make the Weyland Corp look better, that it might leave out some details in the company's history. The timeline portrays Peter Weyland as some kind of unprecedented prodigy ubermensch who created the entire company from the ground up all by itself - maybe he didn't have a very good relationship with his father, and opted to leave that part out of the company's timeline?

QuoteSo what if there is one universe where the original four Alien movies (...and Prometheus) are the only canonical sources contributing to that specific universe's continuity and timeline when there is another universe where everything goes? You can have it both ways without infringing on each other.

How is that different from how things work right now with "personal canon"?

Xenomrph, that's just utter B.S.
They can not exist in the same timeline.
They were never meant to in fact they are meant to contradict so they don't.

Stop trying to force it, you can't.

Also there's the whole fact Charles looks exactly like Michael and both are proven humans.
That can't work either unless you go the clone route or some stupid fan speculation like that.
Also you can't claim that they're relatives either when they look EXACTLY the same.

Hell what if it turns out the Engineers only created the Xenomorphs after 2004?
Would you try and make it work then?

You might as f*cking well be doing that because it would require as much dumb fanon as trying to force AVP and Prometheus to exist in the same timeline.

QuoteXenomrph, that's just utter B.S.
They can not exist in the same timeline.
They were never meant to in fact they are meant to contradict so they don't.

Actually it can be argued that it's intentionally vague so that it doesn't contradict, for those who want to incorporate AvP.

I literally just showed you how they can exist in the same timeline without contradicting. :P
Heck, the Weyland timeline even mentions that Peter Weyland's father was an engineer. Guess what Charles Weyland was in 'AvP'? ;)

QuoteStop trying to force it, you can't.

I'm not "forcing" anything. :P

QuoteAlso there's the whole fact Charles looks exactly like Michael and both are proven humans.
That can't work either unless you go the clone route or some stupid fan speculation like that.
Also you can't claim that they're relatives either when they look EXACTLY the same.

They don't look exactly the same, though. One is much than the other, for one. According to Colonial Marines they *are* relatives, which explains the resemblance. And even if they weren't, there's a shitton of people who look like other people living right now on planet earth in real life. A simple google search for things like "celebrity look alikes" or "people who look like other people" brings up literally dozens of examples.

QuoteHell what if it turns out the Engineers only created the Xenomorphs after 2004?
Would you try and make it work then?

Ridley Scott already addressed that - he outright said in an interview that regardless of what we see in 'Prometheus', the derelict ship and Space Jockey in 'Alien' have still been chilling on LV-426 for countless milennia waiting patiently for the Nostromo to find it, and that what we saw in 'Prometheus' was not the creation of the capital-A Alien as we know it. So yes, the Aliens existed before 2004.

Sorry. :)

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 07, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
AVP however still contradicts Prometheus, due to AVP taking place in 2004 and Weyland's company only being founded in 2012.

I have already talked about this before in earlier posts in this topic.  The time line only shows the creation of Weyland corp America and one of two Weyland Corp UK.   Weyland Industries is whole different thing which still exists as is shown on the time line and still used in new materiel.

---

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
It's not just mere speculation when you retcon and make up things from scratch (...in order to make things fit...), is it?

Nothings been retconed though, unless someone else gave you an example of something else and how it fits in a way that would null previously made work.  I haven't done that.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
And why would a multiverse stand in the way of that?

It wouldn't but that style alone doesn't mean their is a multiverse, otherwise Russian folklore would be really screwed up.  I am not fighting the concept I am just pointing out that if one of the goals in formulating this was to stop fighting between fans it wont.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
So in other words you're pretty much advocating the multiverse concept indirectly...

Yes but not through the story telling style I mentioned.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
???

Yeah that is just one unique style of story telling, its much more unique than the formula Fox uses with the Alien Predator Prometheus universe and X-Men movieverse.  You got one also, and this is very weird, where in the show only the dialog is canon but the visuals are non-canon.

What would your reaction be if Aliens had that formula of story telling?  Everything you see is non-canon, everything heard dialog was the only thing canon.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
...ok, too tired to repeat myself, so I'll just pass this one for now. But feel free to re-read the posts of RakaiThwei about the multiverse concept. They're pretty spot on.

Hes partially correct, but like I said to him I have been studying the mechanics for string theory, superstring theory, M-theory, and p-brane ect ect... 

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
Not if it is truly a multiverse where there are no primary or secondary universes. So what if there is one universe where the original four Alien movies (...and Prometheus) are the only canonical sources contributing to that specific universe's continuity and timeline when there is another universe where everything goes? You can have it both ways without infringing on each other.

Well besides having a point of origin the way it normally goes the first set of stories in a work of fiction is the primary universe.  Right now that would be what fox considers canon, the creators of ACM pretty much covered this when the proclaimed just about everything is in one universe from the games and novels and comics.

NOW that being said I am not denying a multiverse.  Every work of fiction one way or another will interact with each other, it inevitable, so is the out come of every action taken and not taken in infinite combinations.

One of my favorite universes is where Weyland Industries with its subsidiaries led be Sir Peter are suspected of doing legal actions that are not in Americas best interest.  So CURE is sent to investigate Weyland Industries.  And in the end well before Prometheus creation Sir Peter and his board of directors all end up in fatal accidents at the hands of Remo Williams the destroyer.  This causes an even greater deviation of the time line set in the Alien Predator Prometheus universe.

QuoteBut the device does more than just allows people to see their dreams, you can see their memories and even talk to people that are in hyper sleep with it.

The bit about seeing memories is speculation.

QuoteThey look different to me, very different.

Doesn't matter.

QuoteBut that is not what they are implying in the movie and website, they are all supposed to be the same age, going by carbon dating.  Unless of course the material she tested has a decay rate unknown to modern science.

No dating is done on the Derelict.

QuoteWhy would WY mercs still use them for tactical reasons?

What?

QuoteThat was their first analysis of the transmission.  If you have heard radio signals before you would know that's not what they sound like.  I think they were assuming they were hearing the signal not the actual message ie voice.  Unless they were using some sort of binary code or primary numbers code their is no real way for the computer to have deciphered the message as a warning if what you where hearing was the radio signal and not the message.

Speculation.

QuoteWell Xenomrph already pointed out what I would have pointed out.  I also would like to point out that the writers gave the same level of respect to the AvP movies as they did to Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Alien Res.  They are canon but they didn't feel obligated to stay true to a single one of those movies.

Yo ucan make up what you like, but fact remains that AvP was ignored when Prometheus was produced.  In a fight between AvP and Prometheus to be part of the Alien continuity - AvP will lose.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 08, 2014, 06:58:05 AM
I don't think anything should be beholden to "the source material", that's sort of the point of a shared universe - different people get to take a crack at their own interpretations of the concepts.

You're taking my argument out of context, twisting it and using it to support your argument to why there shouldn't necessarily be a multiverse. The idea of the multiverse allows these different interpretations to co-exist without infringing on each other. So far your only argument seems to be: "There shouldn't be a multiverse, there can't be a multiverse because I don't like the idea." That's how I am seeing things from the way you are presenting them.

And again, I refer you to the Godzilla franchise.. I've managed to get in touch with IDW artist and writer Matt Frank and inquired to him whether or not Toho has addressed the Showa, Heisei and Millennium films are separate universe. His statement:

QuoteThere is no "multiverse" in the manner of DC comics, Star Trek, or Ultraman. That would imply that travel between the various continuities were possible. But there ARE various timelines, none of which are related. I mean, you COULD argue that G'54, or at least the Bravo experiment, was some sort of Nexus point. But it was never intended as such. Just like the Zelda games and that asinine backwards-developed timeline.

Source: http://spankzilla85.tumblr.com/post/78814152146/has-toho-officially-addressed-that-there-is-a (http://spankzilla85.tumblr.com/post/78814152146/has-toho-officially-addressed-that-there-is-a)

And when asked if the movies were canon to IDW's Godzilla universe:

QuoteNo connection to the cartoon. And the movies aren't canon to our universe.

Source: http://spankzilla85.tumblr.com/post/78793323007/so-is-it-gino-zilla-or-zilla-jr-thats-in-rulers-of (http://spankzilla85.tumblr.com/post/78793323007/so-is-it-gino-zilla-or-zilla-jr-thats-in-rulers-of)

So what does this say about the Godzilla series? Unintentionally, there are alternate timelines or different universes going on. The latter is something which the fans have labeled. And you, one of the greatest advocators for "personal canon" clearly cannot see that the same thing which the Godzilla franchise (at least for the films) has going on for it, can be applied for Alien-Predator and is against an acceptance of a multiverse?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 08, 2014, 06:58:05 AM
That's the approach Transformers takes (and it's way better for it - the current Transformers comics from the last year or so are hands-down the absolute best Transformers fiction that's ever been written in the 30 years of the franchise. I'm not even exaggerating here, modern Transformers comics are completely fantastic and everyone should read them), and it's the approach Star Wars is going to take.

I don't read the Transformers comics usually but I do sometimes if it can be helped, and I do know that IDW's version of Transformers shares a universe with other licensed properties though they don't directly mention it unless it's a mini-series crossover. X-Files Conspiracies has the Lone Gunmen crossing over with the Ghostbusters, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Transformers, and the Crow-- I like how IDW treats all these licensed properties as a single universe. Infact, X-Files Conspiracies: Transformers even references Infestation 2: Transformers, which already has connections with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Dungeons and Dragons, Covert V, and Weekly World News.

The point is this.. IDW's version of Transformers is generally considered a different continuity from the rest of Transformers G1 Continuity Family. Yes, it is a part of G1 but it's a different path from Marvel and Dreamwave Production's take on G1. You can pick and choose whichever G1 path you want to have.

But I am not familiar with Transformers as you are, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 08, 2014, 06:58:05 AM
There are other storylines that have followed from later sources rather than the original "source material" - the book '2010' follows the movie '2001' more closely than it follows the original '2001' book (although to be fair both of those were written in parallel, and are essentially both "the source material"). Incidentally Arthur C Clarke did clarify discrepancies between each of the Odyssey books by outright saying they happen in different universes. :P

I only saw 2001.. Never saw 2010. I never knew any of that.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 08, 2014, 06:58:05 AM
Similarly, Stargate-SG1 contradicts stuff from the "source material" original movie.

The movie was retconned. I do remember seeing the first episode of SG-1 on Syfy a few years ago.. and it seemed to be essentially a remake of the movie though there were major differences in order for this retcon to take place. I'm not a Stargate fan and I am basing this off from memory so, if I am wrong please correct me. Thing is when an original work is retconned in favor for a reinterpretation or a remake, that is the new status quo. The same thing even applies to Buffy, though I do recall Joss Whedon saying that the movie was a parallel universe to the the main universe, which is the series.

Quote
You can make up what you like, but fact remains that AvP was ignored when Prometheus was produced.  In a fight between AvP and Prometheus to be part of the Alien continuity - AvP will lose.

Not necessarily true in the idea of a multiverse.. If you want a Prometheus-Alien continuity, by all means there can be a universe where Predators do not exist, neither does Charles Bishop Weyland, nor did the events of Alien vs Predator. In another universe, the events of Alien vs Predator occurred, Charles Bishop Weyland exists, and Predators and Aliens co-exist, Peter Weyland and Weyland Corp don't exist nor did the events of Prometheus occur. No one really loses here.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 08, 2014, 03:08:40 AM
Not if it is truly a multiverse where there are no primary or secondary universes. So what if there is one universe where the original four Alien movies (...and Prometheus) are the only canonical sources contributing to that specific universe's continuity and timeline when there is another universe where everything goes? You can have it both ways without infringing on each other.

Strongly in agreement with this. Very strongly.

I consider the film, to be the one overriding canon as it has been in the past. (Alien3 retconning a series of comics.)
And seeing as the founding of Weyland Corporation is mentioned in both Prometheus and the viral material which is also a form of film that is all that really matters, however AVP occurred years before 2012 and both of them being called Weyland Corporation/Industries (The same f*cking thing really.) Means that in terms of FILM they can't fit together unless you bring in EU to justify putting them together.

Nobody considers Colonial Marines canon, it contradicts the interior of the derelict for one thing and that's just one thing. It's as canon as AVP Jaguar and Alien Trilogy. And they are also played by the same actor, that might be something to do with it. When he's essentially playing a different interpretation of the same character. No they don't work together, 'that' is forcing it.

I never implied the Deacon lead to the Xenomorph- an already common misconception. And no, I wasn't trying to say anything about the derelict crash happening after Prometheus.

But what if that was the only shipment of Aliens and a film later on establishes that with a timelapse from when it crashed to when the Nostromo found it?
My point is, you can't try and push separate stories onto one and other.
You can consider them part of the same world until one another start contradicting each other.
But not after.

QuoteSo far your only argument seems to be: "There shouldn't be a multiverse, there can't be a multiverse because I don't like the idea." That's how I am seeing things from the way you are presenting them.

It's more of "the multiverse idea as you're presenting it doesn't seem any different from 'personal canon', so what's the point?"

QuoteAnd you, one of the greatest advocators for "personal canon" clearly cannot see that the same thing which the Godzilla franchise (at least for the films) has going on for it, can be applied for Alien-Predator and is against an acceptance of a multiverse?

No, I simply prefer the idea of there being one singular universe/timeline in which everything occurs (and that happens to be FOX's apparent viewpoint, as well). With a multiverse, that becomes impossible. Or do you mean to tell me that there's both a "universe" in which, say, 'AvP' happens in the same timeline as 'Alien', and one where 'Alien' happens exactly as we saw it happen, but 'AvP' is in a completely separate "universe" (but still happened, mind you)?

A multiverse like Godzilla (or the Halloween franchise, or 007, or others) works when the franchise owners outright decide to "branch off" from one point in the "timeline" and disregard other stuff, essentially creating another "universe".
That's not what's happening with A/P/AvP, according to FOX (who owns the franchise). Some contributors to the franchise might intend it that way when they tell their individual stories, but FOX consistently steps back in when they're done and says "nope, all one universe according to us".
And for all the people who don't like it that way, that's what personal canon is for. Whatever makes you happy. :) Heck, one could say that it's your personal canon that there's a multiverse at work, if that's what helps keep everything straight for you.

Quote
But I am not familiar with Transformers as you are, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

I don't dispute anything you said (and yes, IDW's stuff is basically their own permutation of the "G1" universe), but I also don't see how it changes anything *I* said. :P

QuoteThe [Stargate] movie was retconned. I do remember seeing the first episode of SG-1 on Syfy a few years ago.. and it seemed to be essentially a remake of the movie though there were major differences in order for this retcon to take place. I'm not a Stargate fan and I am basing this off from memory so, if I am wrong please correct me. Thing is when an original work is retconned in favor for a reinterpretation or a remake, that is the new status quo. The same thing even applies to Buffy, though I do recall Joss Whedon saying that the movie was a parallel universe to the the main universe, which is the series.

Sure, but how does that relate to your "source material" argument? The original movie was the source material for both Buffy and Stargate, and the later stuff retconned it, bent it to its will, rather than be beholden to it as if the "source material" is some kind of unimpeachable holy text that all later stories must adhere to.

QuoteIn another universe, the events of Alien vs Predator occurred, Charles Bishop Weyland exists, and Predators and Aliens co-exist, Peter Weyland and Weyland Corp don't exist nor did the events of Prometheus occur. No one really loses here.

Except for the people who want 'AvP' to happen in the same universe as 'Prometheus'. Whoops! :P

QuoteAnd seeing as the founding of Weyland Corporation is mentioned in both Prometheus and the viral material which is also a form of film that is all that really matters, however AVP occurred years before 2012 and both of them being called Weyland Corporation/Industries (The same f*cking thing really.) Means that in terms of FILM they can't fit together unless you bring in EU to justify putting them together.

No, going by the films alone they don't even contradict each other. Only if you start bringing in the Weyland website's timeline is there some kind of "problem", and it's really, really easy to fix and overlook.

QuoteNobody considers Colonial Marines canon,[...]No they don't work together, 'that' is forcing it.

You're welcome to that opinion, but I disagree. :)

QuoteBut what if that was the only shipment of Aliens and a film later on establishes that with a timelapse from when it crashed to when the Nostromo found it?
My point is, you can't try and push separate stories onto one and other.

The second sentence there doesn't follow from the first.
My point is, they're not separate stories, so no one is "pushing" or "forcing" anything.

They definitely are separate stories (you're a lunatic if you think A/P is all one story) and you hand-waved the rest of my points.

You're clearly just not worth arguing with at all if you refuse to conceed on any of your blatantly wrong points.

And just FYI, no the founding of W-C is directly mentioned in Prometheus and it's date. I know SM has the screen-cap.

The fact that Weyland owns a company in 2004 directly contradicts this in terms of film.

Give up, I've already proven Predxeno wrong so get off your goddamn altar and show some humility. They CANNOT exist in the same timeline.

QuoteNothing has been retconed though, unless someone else gave you an example of something else and how it fits in a way that would null previously made work.  I haven't done that.

Ggh!

*sigh!*

...Too tired for this...

QuoteIt wouldn't but that style alone doesn't mean their is a multiverse, otherwise Russian folklore would be really screwed up.  I am not fighting the concept I am just pointing out that if one of the goals in formulating this was to stop fighting between fans it wont.

It's because fans like you and Predxenomrph want all or nothing. There is no such thing as compromise. If you can't force your fanon enabled one universe canon on the rest of us it is a no-no.

QuoteYes but not through the story telling style I mentioned.

...

QuoteWhat would your reaction be if Aliens had that formula of story telling?  Everything you see is non-canon, everything heard dialog was the only thing canon.

I...I don't know what to say.

QuoteWell besides having a point of origin the way it normally goes the first set of stories in a work of fiction is the primary universe.  Right now that would be what fox considers canon, the creators of ACM pretty much covered this when the proclaimed just about everything is in one universe from the games and novels and comics.

NOW that being said I am not denying a multiverse.  Every work of fiction one way or another will interact with each other, it inevitable, so is the out come of every action taken and not taken in infinite combinations.

One of my favorite universes is where Weyland Industries with its subsidiaries led be Sir Peter are suspected of doing legal actions that are not in Americas best interest.  So CURE is sent to investigate Weyland Industries.  And in the end well before Prometheus creation Sir Peter and his board of directors all end up in fatal accidents at the hands of Remo Williams the destroyer.  This causes an even greater deviation of the time line set in the Alien Predator Prometheus universe.

You are an enigma Darth Rinzler. I can't help but like you despite your FOX bizzarro world stance on A/P/AVP/Prom continuity and canon.

QuoteYou're clearly just not worth arguing with at all if you refuse to conceed on any of your blatantly wrong points.

You're one to talk. :D

QuoteAnd just FYI, no the founding of W-C is directly mentioned in Prometheus and it's date. I know SM has the screen-cap.

I'd like to see it, then. :)

Quote
The fact that Weyland owns a company in 2004 directly contradicts this in terms of film.

No it doesn't, as demonstrated. :)

QuoteGive up, I've already proven Predxeno wrong so get off your goddamn altar and show some humility. They CANNOT exist in the same timeline.

Nope, they actually can exist in the same timeline, and do according to FOX. You're of the opinion that they can't, but trying to force that opinion on others is hardly civil.

I'm picturing you like Luke Skywalker at the end of the Empire Strike Back, sobbing and wailing impotently into the void as he learns the truth, and that the universe isn't going to magically bend to his will when his worldview is shattered.

"NOO. NOOOO. THAT'S NOT TRUE. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

I have a better idea, why don't you give up. ;)

QuoteIt's because fans like you and Predxenomrph want all or nothing.  There is no such thing as compromise. If you can't force your fanon enabled one universe canon on the rest of us it is a no-no.

No, that's not what I've been saying at all. In fact, if you want to see an example of someone forcing their fanon on someone else, look no further than the post directly above yours where someone else is trying to force their fanon on me. :P

And yet you fail to give any points which disprove mine, only immature comments.


Looks like your world-view just got shattered:


(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-media.hollywood.com%2Fimages%2Fl%2Fweyland_620_101112.jpg&hash=f766bb52d6e5fb769c651f1a62675449370b09a7)

There's always an extra at the end of the credits. ;)

QuoteAnd yet you fail to give any points which disprove mine

I did, you just didn't respond to them. :)

QuoteLooks like your world-view just got shattered

Already addressed. :)

ThePerfect1Organism, you still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? All-Is-Canon Organism. Its illogical perfection is matched only by its endurance.
A survivor... unclouded by continuity, reason, or delusions of quality.

"You're one to talk. :D

QuoteAnd just FYI, no the founding of W-C is directly mentioned in Prometheus and it's date. I know SM has the screen-cap.I'd like to see it, then. :)

QuoteThe fact that Weyland owns a company in 2004 directly contradicts this in terms of film.No it doesn't, as demonstrated. :)

QuoteGive up, I've already proven Predxeno wrong so get off your goddamn altar and show some humility. They CANNOT exist in the same timeline.Nope, they actually can exist in the same timeline, and do according to FOX. You're of the opinion that they can't, but trying to force that opinion on others is hardly civil.

I'm picturing you like Luke Skywalker at the end of the Empire Strike Back, sobbing and wailing impotently into the void as he learns the truth, and that the universe isn't going to magically bend to his will when his worldview is shattered.

"NOO. NOOOO. THAT'S NOT TRUE. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"



Oh I didn't respond to those GENIUS retorts that proved me wrong about the films.

But oh-look you fail to bring any evidence into a single one.

Where-as my evidence IN THE FILM is directly above.

So childish you are it's almost laughable, ignored.

And as we can all see, you're clearly wrong.

---

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 09, 2014, 03:29:15 AM
ThePerfect1Organism, you still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? All-Is-Canon Organism. Its illogical perfection is matched only by its endurance.
A survivor... unclouded by continuity, reason, or delusions of quality.

It's a (A thousand insults that would get me banned) that should be IP banned is what it is, especially if he's done this before.
Which might as well be trolling, in fact the very definition since he seems to ask the same f*cking questions over and over and dismisses it if he doesn't like the answer.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 09, 2014, 03:29:15 AM
ThePerfect1Organism, you still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? All-Is-Canon Organism. Its illogical perfection is matched only by its endurance.
A survivor... unclouded by continuity, reason, or delusions of quality.

You must have missed the part where he tried to force his opinion down my throat.

You know, the same thing you (incorrectly) claim that I do. :D

---

Quote
And as we can all see, you're clearly wrong.

Whatever you want to believe, I guess. :)

Here, let me help you:

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW0AOs.jpg&hash=34a400b131a96d682b9acc2b544c318f6e187c65)

I'm still not seeing that evidence.
That's a key part of making a point, without it your point falls apart.
Therefore you are wrong.

Especially since I actually gave evidence.

And oh look I can reference pop-culture too and have it be meaningless in the context of the situation!

"Does that compute! Or do I have to draw you a schematic?!"

I posted it earlier in the thread. I'll link the specific post (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1873327#msg1873327) you didn't respond to.

Well that's a lie, you responded to it (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1873417#msg1873417) with:

QuoteXenomrph, that's just utter B.S.
They can not exist in the same timeline.
They were never meant to in fact they are meant to contradict so they don't.

Stop trying to force it, you can't.

Which, uh, really isn't a response other than saying "nuh uh!".

Edit-- "Did IQs drop sharply while I was away?" ;)

That's because as I stated afterwards, film is the overriding canon and gave example Alien3 overriding those comics.
So the Weyland-Corp timeline has no bearing.

And your speculation about the relationship between Charles and Peter, is only that speculation.


So yeah... Still utter B.S.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
It's more of "the multiverse idea as you're presenting it doesn't seem any different from 'personal canon', so what's the point?"

Here is a problem with using Fox's idea of the Alien-Predator universe being unified as you argue: Which parts are you going to use and which parts aren't you going to use? In one movie you have Lance Henrikson portraying the founder of one half of what will eventually be the Weyland-Yutani corporation. Yeah well go to the next movie and here you have a passage saying that Peter Weyland founded the Weyland Corporation sometime in 2012, and this is accounting the Weyland Corp timeline which is written as an in-universe document. So with personal canon is what we do is we pick and choose what we want, and that's not consistent and it's not fair.

With a multiverse, it allows everything to exist and each universe can have their own consistency instead of being this blind path which you are arguing in favor of and what Fox apparently has presented to us.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
No, I simply prefer the idea of there being one singular universe/timeline in which everything occurs (and that happens to be FOX's apparent viewpoint, as well). With a multiverse, that becomes impossible. Or do you mean to tell me that there's both a "universe" in which, say, 'AvP' happens in the same timeline as 'Alien', and one where 'Alien' happens exactly as we saw it happen, but 'AvP' is in a completely separate "universe" (but still happened, mind you)?

I don't believe that with a multiverse, the idea of a one singular universe or timeline where everything occurs becomes impossible. It's just one universe where a myriad of others exist. That is my argument. That is what I am trying to get across which you seem to have a great difficulty in understanding or accepting-- as bizarre that universe maybe, it can exist with others. I also happen to be telling you there could be a universe where AvP happens in the same timeline as Alien, but there is another universe where AvP is in a separate universe but still happened. That is in answer to the question which you asked me.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
That's not what's happening with A/P/AvP, according to FOX (who owns the franchise). Some contributors to the franchise might intend it that way when they tell their individual stories, but FOX consistently steps back in when they're done and says "nope, all one universe according to us".

There is another work of fiction which has different authors with different interpretations or disconnected stories that is all rolled up into one major collection, and has a committee saying that it's all canon and goes together despite the major contradictions. It's also one of the best selling books out there in the world. It's called the Bible. Yes, I went there.. I totally went there.

Does anyone really agree with what it says? Absolutely not. Why do you think we have so many branches of Christianity?

It's the same thing here.. or maybe not. But the point of this argument is this, are fans going to agree with what Fox believes is a consistent universe when it's clearly not? Absolutely not. I'm sure that there are a few who do but those people are in the minority or simply not as vocal about it.

While I do subscribe to the Word of God trope.. Story and In-universe events for the most part I believe over-rides that. Case in point, when a writer at Saban had said that the Disney Rangers weren't canon-- his word was over-ridden when the Disney Rangers had showed up in Saban episodes. Also, Peter Laird of Mirage TMNT had said that "The River" storyline isn't canon with the Mirage TMNT comics, but the events are referenced explicitly. If story over-rides Word of God, then story rules out!

If you truly believe that Fox is God, and that Fox is infallible then you can't throw out some of the movies just because you don't like them.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
Sure, but how does that relate to your "source material" argument? The original movie was the source material for both Buffy and Stargate, and the later stuff retconned it, bent it to its will, rather than be beholden to it as if the "source material" is some kind of unimpeachable holy text that all later stories must adhere to.

It relates to my source material argument because the source material establishes a guideline and mythology for all other works and adaptations to keep. While they don't necessarily have to be holden to the original source, they at least need to keep certain elements to be recognizable from an established work. If something strays too far from the mythology and elements of the source material, it may end up becoming unrecognizable-- case in point? Roland Emmerich's Godzilla. Was that movie at all a Godzilla film? It certainly was marketed as one. Were the origins of the creature similar to Godzilla? Sure.. Was the creature in question Godzilla at all? Absolutely not. So much in fact that Toho had to rename the creature to Zilla.

I am not saying that every later story has to adhere to the previous entries of an established work. All they have to do is simply keep the core concepts, the essential elements to be seen as an inspired work of an established story.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
Except for the people who want 'AvP' to happen in the same universe as 'Prometheus'. Whoops! :P

I'm sure in a multiverse, that can happen.. And that's the argument I am trying to speak out which you seem so adamant against. And let's say that a multiverse was made official, and that universe does exist-- someone official would have to ignore the Weyland Corp timeline, and intricately attempt to connect Charles and Peter. A multiverse would allow that to universe to occur.

Having all that said.. I feel like I am beating a dead horse with a stick. So much for trying to introduce a helpful idea..  >:(

QuoteDoes anyone really agree with what it says? Absolutely not. Why do you think we have so many branches of Christianity?

I think you mean 'everybody'.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 09, 2014, 03:57:32 AM
That's because as I stated afterwards, film is the overriding canon and gave example Alien3 overriding those comics.
So the Weyland-Corp timeline has no bearing.

And your speculation about the relationship between Charles and Peter, is only that speculation.


So yeah... Still utter B.S.

You're welcome to that opinion. :)

QuoteSo with personal canon is what we do is we pick and choose what we want, and that's not consistent and it's not fair.

With a multiverse, it allows everything to exist and each universe can have their own consistency instead of being this blind path which you are arguing in favor of and what Fox apparently has presented to us.

What's the difference between "personal canon" and "multiverse" in what you're saying? You keep saying it does things but I don't see you showing how it does any of that any better than the "personal canon" idea.

QuoteIt's just one universe where a myriad of others exist. That is my argument. That is what I am trying to get across which you seem to have a great difficulty in understanding or accepting-- as bizarre that universe maybe, it can exist with others. I also happen to be telling you there could be a universe where AvP happens in the same timeline as Alien, but there is another universe where AvP is in a separate universe but still happened.

Why does it matter, though? Personal canon lets people pick and choose anyway.

QuoteDoes anyone really agree with what it says? Absolutely not. Why do you think we have so many branches of Christianity?

It's the same thing here.. or maybe not. But the point of this argument is this, are fans going to agree with what Fox believes is a consistent universe when it's clearly not? Absolutely not. I'm sure that there are a few who do but those people are in the minority or simply not as vocal about it.

I don't disagree with any of that - and just like with Christianity, people can believe what they want to believe. It's called... wait for it... "personal canon". :P

QuoteIf you truly believe that Fox is God, and that Fox is infallible then you can't throw out some of the movies just because you don't like them.

Sure I can, anybody can. It's fiction, I can do what I want in order to make me happy. Is FOX going to arrest me if I don't? Ban me from enjoying the franchise?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 09:17:07 AM
What's the difference between "personal canon" and "multiverse" in what you're saying? You keep saying it does things but I don't see you showing how it does any of that any better than the "personal canon" idea.

So that's your argument now? Just.. throwing out those two words? Fair enough.. this will be the last time I will reply in regards. You've already given me your answer that you don't like a multiverse. That's all I needed to know. No need for another runaround.

A multiverse allows a myriad of universes which have numerous similarities and differences to co-exist within a larger scope, though they are in their isolated universes. There is no necessary "main" universe as each universe is unique and able to stand on their own with their individual histories. No one would be seen in the "wrong" and all would be viewed as canon within the idea of a multiverse. Different universes, different histories, different canons but still fitting in the multiverse. The idea of a multiverse allows for infinite possibilities to happen, stories which were believed to be retconned have somewhere to fit, new stories can take extreme twists in other universes.. Etc, etc..

Personal canon on the other hand, while fun and dandy-- is really inconsistent and sort of plays off the idea that each holder of said personal canon is adhering to a "main" universe. That is why you have so many disagreements and sometimes, fans shoving their opinion of what is canon down onto others.. It's this idea that we have so many people saying the AvP films aren't canon, the EU isn't canon, etc, etc... Personal canon seems pretty volatile in some aspects. Which causes canon supremacy debates.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 09:17:07 AM
Why does it matter, though? Personal canon lets people pick and choose anyway.

See my above posts regarding personal canon.. But if you need to be humored, very well... You're right, why does it matter? It's fiction and ultimately meaningless in the end. However with each new continuity or story, suggests that it's the new status quo. The new "main" universe while not necessarily erasing the old stories altogether. Some of these stories clash, some more than others.. While some of these stories can be seen as isolated events sharing a universe-- certain stories like... Hunter's Planet, and Three World War clash. They cannot exist with each other. Hunter's Planet is deemed as negated though.. knowing Fox, it's still labeled as canon but fans feel as if Hunter's Planet has been negated altogether. The negated story has to go somewhere or be erased.. The idea of a multiverse allows the negated story to exist somewhere while not interfering with the replacement storyline.

All I am trying to do is figure out how the fandom feels about a multiverse. That's all. I am not trying to shove my views onto anyone else, and I am not saying that Fox should adapt the idea.. It'd be nice (wishful thinking-- don't take this too literally) but is it going to happen? Not likely, no. But it does explain and resolve a lot of things.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 09:17:07 AM
Sure I can, anybody can. It's fiction, I can do what I want in order to make me happy. Is FOX going to arrest me if I don't? Ban me from enjoying the franchise?

No one can stop you from enjoying the franchise the way you want to enjoy it.

On a lighter note... You just made me laugh by making me visualize all of that.

It's not opinion it's fact because none of your evidence is in the film. As I have said over and over yet you refuse to provide any evidence, could it be... because there is none?

Quite the hypocrite aren't you? When I provide all the answers, and all you provide is speculation Xenomrph.

You're in denial and it is hilarous.

QuotePersonal canon on the other hand, while fun and dandy-- is really inconsistent and sort of plays off the idea that each holder of said personal canon is adhering to a "main" universe. That is why you have so many disagreements and sometimes, fans shoving their opinion of what is canon down onto others.. It's this idea that we have so many people saying the AvP films aren't canon, the EU isn't canon, etc, etc... Personal canon seems pretty volatile in some aspects. Which causes canon supremacy debates.

That's a pretty gross misunderstanding of what personal canon is.
Personal canon is where people accept what they want to accept, and ignore what they want to ignore. It's kind of what fans have inherently been doing for decades.
It's really not a complicated concept, and it very specifically avoids being volatile because people get to pick and choose what they want to. I... I'm baffled that you'd misunderstand the concept that heavily.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 09, 2014, 01:01:33 PM
It's not opinion it's fact because none of your evidence is in the film. As I have said over and over yet you refuse to provide any evidence, could it be... because there is none?

Quite the hypocrite aren't you? When I provide all the answers, and all you provide is speculation Xenomrph.

You're in denial and it is hilarous.

Keep telling yourself that, i guess. :)

Stellar reply, totally proved me wrong.

Keep on trollin' trollin' trollin'

RakaiThwei, the multiverse idea and concept is a winning idea and concept and I think it would gain real traction if you decided to spread the word. I wouldn't be surprised if FOX in the end, in one way or another, adopts the idea (unless they genuinely don't give a heck as long as they rake in the money). It would solve nearly all the problems these franchises suffer from in the most democratic kind of way, but it would also benefit game makers, screen writers, novelists etc., which means more moolah for the man (FOX).

Sure, there will be certain fans around who just can't accept the idea that their stance on canon and continuity can't be forced down other people's throats anymore, but that's their problem. If you can't stomach a win-win compromise because it takes away your 'right' to bully and gloat, then boohoo Mussolini. You just abused FOX's greed-infested sloppiness and hack-ridden laziness to condescendingly pat people on the head after 'gently' slapping them in the face with your homemade so called "canon". Ugh. I say good riddance to that.

Good riddance indeed.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 09, 2014, 01:43:14 PM
That's a pretty gross misunderstanding of what personal canon is.
Personal canon is where people accept what they want to accept, and ignore what they want to ignore. It's kind of what fans have inherently been doing for decades.
It's really not a complicated concept, and it very specifically avoids being volatile because people get to pick and choose what they want to. I... I'm baffled that you'd misunderstand the concept that heavily.

No I understand the idea of personal canon, however I feel that with personal canon where we pick and choose what we want and leave the rest, we are still taking hints and elements of what we don't want. For example, if I wanted an AvP personal canon where the AvP movies happened, but want to incorporate Colonial Marines (not many fans would)-- I would be also taking Prometheus elements as well. What if I don't want Prometheus (I liked the movie, just throwing that out there) in my personal canon? I would feel like I'd have to toss out Colonial Marines because it has elements of Prometheus in it, which conflict with AvP. Cherry picking isn't consistent and it isn't very fair.

I could also say the same that I am baffled that you can't see what the concept of a multiverse can offer. But we are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I'm actually tired of going back and forth. You don't have to like the concept of a multiverse. No one is forcing you. I just simply wanted to get fans opinions on it.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 09, 2014, 05:26:26 PM
RakaiThwei, the multiverse idea and concept is a winning idea and concept and I think it would gain real traction if you decided to spread the word. I wouldn't be surprised if FOX in the end, in one way or another, adopts the idea (unless they genuinely don't give a heck as long as they rake in the money). It would solve nearly all the problems these franchises suffer from in the most democratic kind of way, but it would also benefit game makers, screen writers, novelists etc., which means more moolah for the man (FOX).

As mentioned before, I would love to write something about an Alien-Predator multiverse up. Of course it would have to incorporate actual research to what a multiverse is and how it could function. There are so many different theories out there to how it works, but I will be the first to say I am no astrophysicist, mathematician, or rocket scientist. I just merely want to present a helpful tool, or theory/concept which can make sense of an inconsistent overall work of fiction. The more I think about this, the more I actually want to write it down but I would also like to know what I am doing. I have a picture of what I want to get across on my head but putting it down on MSWord, I have to present it in a way which gets the message across.

If I do write something up, and this is a big IF, then chances are I may share it on various websites such as DeviantArt, Fanfiction.net, and of course... Perhaps this very site. Getting it to gain the traction and momentum is a whole other thing and I am not so sure it would be widely accepted. For me this is all about introducing a concept of a multiverse which may be a helpful tool for fans new and old.

Also, I found something interesting regarding Multiverses and Universes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bATyoYzlObY#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bATyoYzlObY#ws)

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 09, 2014, 02:01:38 PM
Stellar reply, totally proved me wrong.

Keep on trollin' trollin' trollin'

It's hard to "prove" someone wrong when you're talking about opinions. :)

Pretty hilarious that you think I'm "trolling", though. You'd better report me to the mods or something. :D

QuoteNo I understand the idea of personal canon, however I feel that with personal canon where we pick and choose what we want and leave the rest, we are still taking hints and elements of what we don't want.

How would this be any different under a multiverse idea? To use your example, if someone chose to follow a multiverse that included Colonial Marines but not Prometheus, Colonial Marines would still have those Prometheus elements.

Like I've been saying, a "multiverse" idea is literally exactly the same as the "personal canon" idea that people have been following for decades.

On a lighter note, you should read this article (http://www.theonion.com/articles/francis-ford-coppola-reveals-every-godfather-film,35423/). :)

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 09, 2014, 06:46:15 PM
As mentioned before, I would love to write something about an Alien-Predator multiverse up. Of course it would have to incorporate actual research to what a multiverse is and how it could function. There are so many different theories out there to how it works, but I will be the first to say I am no astrophysicist, mathematician, or rocket scientist. I just merely want to present a helpful tool, or theory/concept which can make sense of an inconsistent overall work of fiction. The more I think about this, the more I actually want to write it down but I would also like to know what I am doing. I have a picture of what I want to get across on my head but putting it down on MSWord, I have to present it in a way which gets the message across.

If I do write something up, and this is a big IF, then chances are I may share it on various websites such as DeviantArt, Fanfiction.net, and of course... Perhaps this very site. Getting it to gain the traction and momentum is a whole other thing and I am not so sure it would be widely accepted. For me this is all about introducing a concept of a multiverse which may be a helpful tool for fans new and old.

Also, I found something interesting regarding Multiverses and Universes.

You don't necessarily have to implement contemporary astrophysics and such in this case since it is just fiction and the main purpose of it is to solve things and make it work with the absolute minimal amount of fanon/speculation/"personal canon" being used. Let Occam's Razor be the guideline. It is a monumental task but a lot if the work has already been done and I'm sure that SM amongst others, whom have taken in upon themselves to write down timelines and wikis, wouldn't mind if you use/reference their work. Wish I had the time, focus and energy right now to work on this. Maybe you and I can figure something out later on. I'll PM you when I got the time in case you're interested.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 10, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
On a lighter note, you should read this article (http://www.theonion.com/articles/francis-ford-coppola-reveals-every-godfather-film,35423/). :)

I haven't seen the Godfather films and I would've assumed anyway what that article is saying is true for the Godfather films.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 10, 2014, 02:35:34 PM
You don't necessarily have to implement contemporary astrophysics and such in this case since it is just fiction and the main purpose of it is to solve things and make it work with the absolute minimal amount of fanon/speculation/"personal canon" being used. Let Occam's Razor be the guideline. It is a monumental task but a lot if the work has already been done and I'm sure that SM amongst others, whom have taken in upon themselves to write down timelines and wikis, wouldn't mind if you use/reference their work. Wish I had the time, focus and energy right now to work on this. Maybe you and I can figure something out later on. I'll PM you when I got the time in case you're interested.

I suppose I could leave out contemporary astrophysics since as mentioned, all of that goes over my head but an explanation on what a multiverse is should suffice. I also believe I have asked SM if I could reference his Alien Timeline and he said that he didn't mind and he was more than perfectly alright with it. As for referencing other timelines and of course wikis, that would be something crucial though wikis are something I would like to refrain from using too much.

Also any collaborations or contributions would be nice. The more we talk about this, the more incentive I want to make this happen. Already I'm picturing how I can start this out with a written introduction.

Only it was never to do with opinion, it was an argument in which you needed to provide evidence, you failed to do so.
Therefore my point stands and yours does not.

You're trolling in the sense you keep insisting you're correct despite your lack of evidence.
It's like saying to an employee that you didn't want mustard and therefore you want your money back.
But when you show him the sandwich there's no mustard.

It's not my opinion that there's no mustard, It's an observable fact that there is no f*cking mustard.

QuoteThey look different to me, very different.

Quote from: SM on Mar 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
Doesn't matter.

It very well does matter.  It it doesn't look the same it is not the same.  That like saying all Military craft are the same just because they are used by the Military.

Quote from: SM on Mar 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
No dating is done on the Derelict.

True but the suit of the decapitated Engineer is dated.

QuoteWhy would WY mercs still use them for tactical reasons?

Quote from: SM on Mar 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
What?

Yeah the Mercs use them when dealing with USCMs.  Going a couple steps further where the heck is the antigravity technology that was used in Pup in around Alien and so on era of time?  They could have used that for aircraft instead of turbo jets and fans.  Heck they could have sent Pups into the Pilot ship in Alien to check it out instead of crew members.  I could see it being mandatory to use equipment like this in distressed space craft let alone alien space craft. 

Could even used a weaponized version for combat of the Pup.   Have it emit massive Neutron radiation in vicinity of enemy forces while staying evasive.

Quote from: SM on Mar 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
Speculation.

Not really because if it really is the radio signal you would be able to use the sounds heard and plug it into a real computer that would pickup on key numerical patterns.

QuoteWell Xenomrph already pointed out what I would have pointed out.  I also would like to point out that the writers gave the same level of respect to the AvP movies as they did to Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Alien Res.  They are canon but they didn't feel obligated to stay true to a single one of those movies.

Quote from: SM on Mar 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
Yo ucan make up what you like, but fact remains that AvP was ignored when Prometheus was produced.  In a fight between AvP and Prometheus to be part of the Alien continuity - AvP will lose.

I am not making up anything.  Xenomrph saw the quote himself when we were talking with people that had made AvP noncanon on the AvPwiki.  AvP was not ignored otherwise the writers themselves when asked if it was canon would have said no.  Instead they said yes.

---

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 08, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
I consider the film, to be the one overriding canon as it has been in the past. (Alien3 retconning a series of comics.)

And what comics would those be?

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 08, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
(The same f*cking thing really.) Means that in terms of FILM they can't fit together unless you bring in EU to justify putting them together.

They are not the same thing, not legally, not in function.  I went through this before in the first few pages.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 08, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
Nobody considers Colonial Marines canon, it contradicts the interior of the derelict for one thing and that's just one thing. It's as canon as AVP Jaguar and Alien Trilogy. And they are also played by the same actor, that might be something to do with it. When he's essentially playing a different interpretation of the same character. No they don't work together, 'that' is forcing it.

Its not even the same Derelict and Obviously you don't speak for the whole fan base I consider ACM canon, and so does fox.

---

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 09, 2014, 02:49:09 AM
It's because fans like you and Predxenomrph want all or nothing. There is no such thing as compromise. If you can't force your fanon enabled one universe canon on the rest of us it is a no-no.

Well here is the thing, the only time really Foxs stance should be enforced is if we are having serious talks about Tech and Creatures from that one universe and or when its being compared to other stuff from other universes.  I have seen to many exploits from nonfans that know their is a canon war between fans which gives them an opining to make their favorite stuff look way better than the stuff from say Aliens or SW.

QuoteYes but not through the story telling style I mentioned.

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 09, 2014, 02:49:09 AM
You are an enigma Darth Rinzler. I can't help but like you despite your FOX bizzarro world stance on A/P/AVP/Prom continuity and canon.

Cool.  I would also like to see some stories from one of the many Halo/A/P/AvP/Prom universes.  Or one of those universes were the Alien movie was really a lie, Ripley really did kill the crew of the Nostromo, but an incident on LV-426 causes the people responsible for Ripleys charges, reconsider she could be telling the truth.  So they send her with the Marines.  The alien she describes doesn't match at all what the Marines are dealing with, and because of this many Marines die.  Burke finds conclusive evidence that Ripley did lie about bringing an Alien aboard her ship, and that it killed her crew.  So Ripley has two choices.  Help Burke and the Marines fight their way off LV-426 despite the fact they all want her head on a plater after they make their way back off planet, OR she can do what she does best and kill the Marines... With a Chainsaw  =]

One at a time of corse, and not with a chainsaw, the Marines would catch on quick that they should just shoot Ripley.

It is the same Derelict, what makes you think it isn't?

And feel free to think of the viral films as not as canon as the main films themselves, my point is still proven without them.

Comics which followed after Aliens.


It really sounds like you need to do your research.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 10, 2014, 09:50:58 PM
It is the same Derelict, what makes you think it isn't?

No it is not.  The one in the movies had a serious hull breach.  The one that Winter enters only has a damaged outer-skin.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Mar 10, 2014, 09:50:58 PM
And feel free to think of the viral films as not as canon as the main films themselves, my point is still proven without them.

Comics which followed after Aliens.

It doesn't because Industries and Corporations are not the same legally and in function.  The time only shows the creation "Incorporation" of Weyland Corp America and one of two Weyland Corp Uk.

The comics were also not retconed since they all were source materiel and declared as being in the same universe as the movies.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 10, 2014, 09:56:25 PM
The comics were also not retconed since they all were source materiel and declared as being in the same universe as the movies.

Actually, the first ALIENS comics were retconned when Alien 3 was released. The comics which depict Ripley, Hicks and Newt fighting the Xenomorphs on an infested Earth were rewritten.. Ripley was replaced with a synthetic, Hicks and Newt were rewritten as Wilkes and Billie. That actually counts as a retcon.

WOW You really need to do your research, if you'd played the game you'd know that the arm was taken off by a lava flow as mentioned by Weyland on one of the logs you can find, it is meant to be the same Derelict but it is self-contradicting.
Do you honestly think there's another Derelict in the exact same place, with a dead Jockey with his ribcage also torn open?

But as I've mentioned before, the films are the highest canon.
Because of the comics that Alien3 then retconned, here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_retroactive_continuities (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_retroactive_continuities)

It's mentioned there and you can look up more on it.

This means that film is the overriding canon, meaning that to the films, NONE of the EU material is sacred, it is all subject to change.

This means that because it was never specifically mentioned that Weyland Industries was called "Industries" in AVP (2004) we have to assume like every other iteration within the films that it is Weyland Corporation.

But that was founded in 2012, well after 2004.
The intention with Prometheus was to ignore AVP, and it did so within the films therefore retconning AVP and all it is linked to for instance AVP (2010), and yes Weyland Corporation being founded was mentioned in Prometheus and a date.

AVP and Prometheus can't exist in the same timeline unless you bring in EU material to support that idea.
And since the EU is subject to change and/or overhaul none of it has any bearing in Canon.


Here's some advice, stop being so naive.

QuoteIt very well does matter.

Sorry.  Unless things change dramatically in Prometheus 2 - the Jockies are dudes in suits.

QuoteYeah the Mercs use them when dealing with USCMs.

Or they're using them to map the Derelict.

QuoteI could see it being mandatory to use equipment like this in distressed space craft let alone alien space craft. 

Guess you're wrong I suppose.

QuoteNot really because if it really is the radio signal you would be able to use the sounds heard and plug it into a real computer that would pickup on key numerical patterns.

Guess not.

QuoteAvP was not ignored otherwise the writers themselves when asked if it was canon would have said no.

Sorry, but the re-writing of Weyland says otherwise.

QuoteAnd what comics would those be?

The ones that had Ripley, Hicks and Newt not dead 10 years after Aliens.  They were duly ignored when they made Alien3.  All the other comics were duly ignored when they made Alien Resurrection.

QuoteNo it is not.  The one in the movies had a serious hull breach.  The one that Winter enters only has a damaged outer-skin.

The Sulaco in the movie had a vast hangar bay, a stack more cryotubes and the name tags on the lockers in a different order.  The colony in the movie had a different layout.  I guess there's another different Sulaco and colony in A:CM.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 10, 2014, 06:14:29 PM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 10, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
On a lighter note, you should read this article (http://www.theonion.com/articles/francis-ford-coppola-reveals-every-godfather-film,35423/). :)

I haven't seen the Godfather films and I would've assumed anyway what that article is saying is true for the Godfather films.

The article is satire. It's intentionally making fun of exactly what we're talking about in this thread. :P

QuoteYou're trolling in the sense you keep insisting you're correct despite your lack of evidence.

Not really, no. :)

QuoteAnd since the EU is subject to change and/or overhaul none of it has any bearing in Canon.

That's one opinion, but it's definitely not any kind of "fact".

You're too obtuse Xenomrph, I can't be arsed with someone who keeps twisting crap to fit his perspective.

QuoteDo you honestly think there's another Derelict in the exact same place, with a dead Jockey with his ribcage also torn open?

Maybe there's a third Derelict - since the one in the Infestation game isn't damaged like it is in Aliens.  And a third Sulaco to go with it as the one in Infestation has a huge hole blown in it.  ;D

Reading about the Big Deletion which happens in the old comics.. And trying to picture this in the Multiverse idea which I may attempt to apply on paper. Thing is... either Resurrection can't happen, or the Big Deletion can't happen, or both can't happen in the idea of a multiverse.. Though they likely would anyway in some form or another.

The thing about the Big Deletion is - it's really not that big.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 03:43:28 AM
The thing about the Big Deletion is - it's really not that big.

So I read in a thread which is dated a few years old.

So I'm probably covering old ground here.

It was simply a clumsy way to try and explain why everyone forgot that Earth was invaded by Aliens.  It's a bit silly when they clunkily deliver expository dialogue about them doing the first planetfall in 114 years - and then land at a prefab colony.  And the timing is off too.  One dude is said to have been the host of a game show in the "90s".  So if it's set 10-20 years after that, we're in the early decades of a new century.  It can't be the 23rd century since most of the comics take place then.  It can't be the 24th century as this is the first planetfall in 114 years.  Presumably the Deletion happened 114 years earlier - so if we pick an arbitrary date of 114 years before 2310, it happened in 2196.  That when Aliens in comics were taking over Earth.

And if we go 2410 - that's about 30 years after Resurrection, and people were merrily flying around the galaxy at that time.

So if one universe in the multiverse were to encompase the AvP films and the EU... then that would mean neither the Big Deletion nor Resurrection can happen. Funny... that's sort of the same thing for one universe which incorporates Operation Aliens-- meaning character deaths in Aliens, as well as the entire events of Alien 3 and larger portions of the EU never happened.

I dunno man.

The Big Deletion, I believe, was invented so the comics would conform to Resurrection.  ie. Any information about the Aliens was deleted so decades later no one would know about them.  This information was also apparently deleted from peoples brains.

But - miracle of miracles - everything about Ripley and the Aliens she encountered survived.  Phew!  That was lucky!

Also surviving were old style arcade games and the TV shopping network.

Oh, I know that the big deletion was an attempt to fix the whole inconsistencies between AvP, Alien Resurrection as well as the comics but with the problems.. Something has to give. Even in the context of a multiverse.

Obviously depends on who you ask.  ;D

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 04:21:43 AM
Obviously depends on who you ask.  ;D

I suppose there is an emphasis on that. Hmmm..

What would you say if I asked you?

Sorry what was the question?

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 04:53:33 AM
Sorry what was the question?

I didn't ask it but.. here we go.

In the context of a multiverse, if one were to have a universe which incoprated the first two Predator films, the AvP films, and the Alien films up to Alien 3, along with a bulk of the EU... does this mean that Resurrection and Thrill of the Hunt/Civilized Beast can't happen in order for those particular events to actually happen?

Any comic that details widespread knowledge of Aliens and/ or references the invasion of Earth can't co-exist with Resurrection, even with the Big Deletion due to the latter being sloppily handled.

Take Resurrection out of the equation and nearly everything else can fit more or less (including Thrill... and Civilised...).  Comic-wise anyway.  The novels released a few years back (No Exit, Criminal Enterprise et al) are a different kettle of fish.  And video games are another matter again.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 05:09:16 AM
And video games are another matter again.

Which video games in particular? I know that the Capcom one can't really fit too well unless that can be counted as it's own universe. And of course there is Colonial Marines which.. has issues in of itself.

The AvP PC games can mostly fit (despite the wrong date on the first one).  You can pretty throw out Aliens (Konami), Alien Trilogy, Alien3, and Alien3 - The Gun.  Extermination doesn't really jibe with Infestation which also doesn't jibe A:CM, despite all centering around USCM battling Aliens just after the events of Aliens/ Alien3.

I think Space Jockeys pop up in Aliens - A Comic Book Adventure, so that'd likely not fit with Prometheus.

I'm not sure if and where Thanatos Encounter would fit.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 11, 2014, 02:15:07 AM
You're too obtuse Xenomrph, I can't be arsed with someone who keeps twisting crap to fit his perspective.

That's kind of what art is, though - interpretation (and reinterpretation). It's all just fiction, and with a shared universe with multiple people contributing to it, by its very nature you're going to have authors and filmmakers and what have you reinterpreting things in order to tell the story they want to tell.

Does this cause apparent "contradictions"? Sure. It's pretty much unavoidable, really.
But can those contradictions be worked around? In my opinion, yes, absolutely.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 10, 2014, 10:15:51 PM

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 10, 2014, 09:56:25 PM
The comics were also not retconed since they all were source materiel and declared as being in the same universe as the movies.

Actually, the first ALIENS comics were retconned when Alien 3 was released. The comics which depict Ripley, Hicks and Newt fighting the Xenomorphs on an infested Earth were rewritten.. Ripley was replaced with a synthetic, Hicks and Newt were rewritten as Wilkes and Billie. That actually counts as a retcon.

Thats not the same thing as being made none existent.

---

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
WOW You really need to do your research, if you'd played the game you'd know that the arm was taken off by a lava flow as mentioned by Weyland on one of the logs you can find, it is meant to be the same Derelict but it is self-contradicting.
Do you honestly think there's another Derelict in the exact same place, with a dead Jockey with his ribcage also torn open?

Their are at least 2-3 Derelict ships on LV-426.  The ship that Winter enters does not have the arm broken off.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
But as I've mentioned before, the films are the highest canon.
Because of the comics that Alien3 then retconned, here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_retroactive_continuities (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_retroactive_continuities)

If their is a hierarchy ACM is just as canon as the films as was discussed in interviews about canon and the game.  And as I said before they said that the movies, games, novels, and comics take place in the same universe.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
This means that film is the overriding canon, meaning that to the films, NONE of the EU material is sacred, it is all subject to change.

None of the movies are sacred ether I have just been pointing out the contradictions Prometheus makes with the last four alien films.  You want a list of how each movie in the entire series contradicts itself?

As I pointed out the writers of Prometheus said AvP was canon.  They also said they didn't feel bound to stay true to ANY of the movies.  Those movies being AvP, AvP:R, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Res.  Prometheus really doesn't conflict with the AvP movies, infact it compliments them, what it really does is highly conflict with the last four alot.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
This means that because it was never specifically mentioned that Weyland Industries was called "Industries" in AVP (2004) we have to assume like every other iteration within the films that it is Weyland Corporation.

Did you miss the giant Weyland Industries sign in the movie?

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
But that was founded in 2012, well after 2004.
The intention with Prometheus was to ignore AVP, and it did so within the films therefore retconning AVP and all it is linked to for instance AVP (2010), and yes Weyland Corporation being founded was mentioned in Prometheus and a date.

It only mentions Weyland Corp American and one of two Weyland Corp Uk  it shows nothing at all when Weyland Industries was created not that it would have too since it was shown existing in 2004 in AvP.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 10, 2014, 10:16:42 PM
AVP and Prometheus can't exist in the same timeline unless you bring in EU material to support that idea.
And since the EU is subject to change and/or overhaul none of it has any bearing in Canon.


Here's some advice, stop being so naive.

Ok since everything is subject to change, including the movies, I guess no movie is canon with each other.  Fantastic =]

---

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
Sorry.  Unless things change dramatically in Prometheus 2 - the Jockies are dudes in suits.

You can clearly see that the Pilot in Alien is not wearing a helmet.

QuoteYeah the Mercs use them when dealing with USCMs.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
Or they're using them to map the Derelict.

They don't need to do that since they have been around the ship a good long time, besides the fact they are in a heavily trafficated area that they have already been through.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
Guess you're wrong I suppose.

No that is were that sort of equipment would be used for, search and rescue and scouting.  And also as I pointed out a very tricky unfair weapon that spreads hazardous Neutron radiation.  Hell use a bigger version with a tactical nuclear device and have it zoom in at your enemies and blow them to pieces.

By they way where did that antigravity technology go that was used for the pups?  It would have replaced turbo jets and turbo fans for more atmospheric flight.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
Guess not.

So I can plug what we heard into the same type of deciphering / listing system that S.E.T.I. uses and I will get a message, a warning?

QuoteAvP was not ignored otherwise the writers themselves when asked if it was canon would have said no.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
Sorry, but the re-writing of Weyland says otherwise.

No it doesn't even ACM compliments both AvP and Prometheus.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
The ones that had Ripley, Hicks and Newt not dead 10 years after Aliens.  They were duly ignored when they made Alien3.  All the other comics were duly ignored when they made Alien Resurrection.

To be fair Alien 3s story was screwed to all hell, in one script most if not all of them where to survive.  When the comics about those three characters were written that was one of the scripts they probably based their stories on.  As for A.R.  its special edition ending does compliment the rest of the works.

I will point out even if there some contradictions Prometheus still contradicts just about every movie in the series.

Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
The Sulaco in the movie had a vast hangar bay, a stack more cryotubes and the name tags on the lockers in a different order.  The colony in the movie had a different layout.  I guess there's another different Sulaco and colony in A:CM.

W.Y. had time to refit the the ship and the Colony since they occupied it for a good while.  No one would occupy ether of those places and leave it 100% un repaired.  As for the name tags that is a small mistake but every story (movie, game, comic, novel) has some contradictions with each other.

---

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 11, 2014, 04:01:33 AM
So if one universe in the multiverse were to encompase the AvP films and the EU... then that would mean neither the Big Deletion nor Resurrection can happen. Funny... that's sort of the same thing for one universe which incorporates Operation Aliens-- meaning character deaths in Aliens, as well as the entire events of Alien 3 and larger portions of the EU never happened.

They can all fit together.

Written the introduction down..

No promises if this ends up becoming a thing though.

2-3 Derelicts on LV-426?

And with that you've lost all crediblity.

The Derelict is one of the main reasons I personally support the multiverse. Between all the comics, novels, and video games, the Derelict has been explored and studied so many times it just becomes silly to have it all in the same universe. The same goes for all the different stories and motivations we've gotten for the Space Jockeys/Engineers/Mala'kak/Collectors. You can correct some by saying that there are multiple different species, but really, at that point I would rather just say it's different universes.

Seems the folks over at AvPUniverse had stumbled upon this thread!  :laugh:

http://www.avpuniverse.com/forum/8298.html (http://www.avpuniverse.com/forum/8298.html)

Apparently Prometheus takes place after Alien...

QuoteThe ship that Winter enters does not have the arm broken off.

I think you'll find it does.

QuoteYou can clearly see that the Pilot in Alien is not wearing a helmet.

No, you can't.

QuoteThey don't need to do that since they have been around the ship a good long time, besides the fact they are in a heavily trafficated area that they have already been through.

So?  The PUPs fly past the Prometheus crew on occasion too.

QuoteBy they way where did that antigravity technology go that was used for the pups?  It would have replaced turbo jets and turbo fans for more atmospheric flight.

Nope. Prometheus used jets to land - not anti gravity devices.

QuoteSo I can plug what we heard into the same type of deciphering / listing system that S.E.T.I. uses and I will get a message, a warning?

No.  Try plugging it into ECIU instead.  Still doesn't mean it was a voice.

QuoteTo be fair Alien 3s story was screwed to all hell, in one script most if not all of them where to survive.  When the comics about those three characters were written that was one of the scripts they probably based their stories on.

Nope.  Nothing in the comics reference anything in any Alien3 script - just events in Aliens.

QuoteW.Y. had time to refit the the ship and the Colony since they occupied it for a good while.  No one would occupy ether of those places and leave it 100% un repaired.  As for the name tags that is a small mistake but every story (movie, game, comic, novel) has some contradictions with each other.

And yet there is zero evidence that anything was refitted other than your continual stream of fanfic.

QuoteThey can all fit together.

17 years since Resurrection nullified the comic/ novel/ game continuity, and numerous disparate stories in the meantime and yet still no one's been able to fit it all together in any way that is remotely convincing.

Darth Rinzler, there's definitely only one Derelict on LV-426. It doesn't even take all that much work to line up the myriad stories it shows up in.

For being in the ass-end of space, LV-426 is pretty much the Tattooine of the A/P/AvP franchise, and the Derelict is its Mos Eisley Cantina. :P

Quoteno one's been able to fit it all together in any way that is remotely convincing.

That seems to be a matter of opinion. To each their own. :)

I'm pretty fond of the "fuzzy continuity" idea.
Shit, even the movies aren't internally consistent - not with each other and sometimes not even with themselves. Heck, "fuzzy continuity" would make "Engineers = Space Jockeys" a bit more palatable from where I'm sitting.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 12:15:39 AM
Darth Rinzler, there's definitely only one Derelict on LV-426. It doesn't even take all that much work to line up the myriad stories it shows up in.

On this we agree.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 12:15:39 AM
I'm pretty fond of the "fuzzy continuity" idea.

Shit, even the movies aren't internally consistent - not with each other and sometimes not even with themselves. Heck, "fuzzy continuity" would make "Engineers = Space Jockeys" a bit more palatable from where I'm sitting.

On this we disagree... I would like some consistency within the franchise or rather, a more structured continuity anyway but the thing is.. Fox considers EVERYTHING save for crossovers as canon. And with the advent of the upcoming reboot comics, it's likely that Fox will consider the old comics canon unless a statement is issued suggesting otherwise (and I hope that's not the case even though the writers have said the reboots won't jettison them from canon). If everything is canon, then there for all intents and purposes really is no set canon whatsoever. Sure this is where personal canon comes in but.. some stories don't really coincide with others.

I know YOU have worked out some very interesting fan retcons.. I just don't buy into them.

QuoteIf everything is canon, then there for all intents and purposes really is no set canon whatsoever. Sure this is where personal canon comes in but.. some stories don't really coincide with others.

I don't really agree with this - I think "fuzzy continuity" would allow for a ton more wiggle-room with regard to continuity snags and whatnot. It would acknowledge that at face-value there's contradictions present, but that many of those contradictions can be overlooked, are open to interpretation, aren't meant to be taken literally, or otherwise aren't quite as they appear. Some elements from stories would be true, but not necessarily everything.

QuoteI know YOU have worked out some very interesting fan retcons.. I just don't buy into them.

I know, and that's okay. :)

So I think I finally figured out what it is about an AvP multiverse idea that bugs me so much.
A multiverse and personal canon are by and large the same thing, with one fundamental difference:

With personal canon, people can make up whatever they want to believe, reinterpret stuff however they want, pick and choose sources, etc. That's totally great, whatever makes them happy. No one's beliefs really has any bearing on anybody else's in the grand scheme of the fictional "universe".

With a multiverse, suddenly everyone's beliefs are on equal footing and all of them objectively "exist" within the grand scheme of the "universe". I'm not a real huge fan of that - I don't like the idea that there's a universe where 'AvP' never happened, but in a multiverse there objectively is a universe where that is the case, full stop.

Think of it like different sects of Christianity. The way it works right now in the world, there's a ton of different variations on Christianity and some of them are objectively incompatible with each other at a fundamental level. People believe whatever variation they want to believe, and that's great.
But what if suddenly everyone was forced to acknowledge that everyone else's interpretations and beliefs were equally true? I don't think it would go over that well.

And if everyone's interpretation is objectively just as true within the multiverse as anybody else's, then for all intents and purposes there is no "canon".

Keep in mind - the multiverse idea itself *is* "personal canon", and is also a fan-retcon to address continuity snags. And like how you don't like my retcons, I don't buy into this one. :)

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 11, 2014, 08:17:59 PM
2-3 Derelicts on LV-426?

And with that you've lost all crediblity.

Doesn't matter I have sources to back up any topic I will talk about on this forum.  If you ignore it then its your loss.

---

QuoteThe ship that Winter enters does not have the arm broken off.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
I think you'll find it does.

Nope I have looked it over both in the story mode and in vs mode, its outer skin is the only thing damaged on the arm.

QuoteYou can clearly see that the Pilot in Alien is not wearing a helmet.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
No, you can't.

Yes you can for the reasons I already posted.

QuoteThey don't need to do that since they have been around the ship a good long time, besides the fact they are in a heavily trafficated area that they have already been through.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
So?  The PUPs fly past the Prometheus crew on occasion too.

So it is a contradiction that the Marines are not using it for scouting purposes in Aliens, and it is a contradiction that the crew in the first Alien didn't use the Pup to check to see if it was safe to enter the Pilots ship.  You could even say that its also a contradiction that the salvage crew didn't use the pups for safety reasons when they breached the door of the life pod.

QuoteBy they way where did that antigravity technology go that was used for the pups?  It would have replaced turbo jets and turbo fans for more atmospheric flight.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Nope. Prometheus used jets to land - not anti gravity devices.

Doesn't matter they had nearly 100 years to improve the technology and you don't see it anywhere not even Alien Res.  Prometheus has to many massive technological advances that the rest of the films should have had but don't.  That is a contradiction.

QuoteSo I can plug what we heard into the same type of deciphering / listing system that S.E.T.I. uses and I will get a message, a warning?

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
No.  Try plugging it into ECIU instead.  Still doesn't mean it was a voice.

The sounds they heard sound nothing like radio signals and if plugged into any computer now used to find patterns in radio signals would find nothing. 

QuoteTo be fair Alien 3s story was screwed to all hell, in one script most if not all of them where to survive.  When the comics about those three characters were written that was one of the scripts they probably based their stories on.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Nope.  Nothing in the comics reference anything in any Alien3 script - just events in Aliens.

The current script no, but since they changed it a lot and the film looks nothing close to the original concept its no wonder the older versions don't fit.

QuoteW.Y. had time to refit the the ship and the Colony since they occupied it for a good while.  No one would occupy ether of those places and leave it 100% un repaired.  As for the name tags that is a small mistake but every story (movie, game, comic, novel) has some contradictions with each other.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
And yet there is zero evidence that anything was refitted other than your continual stream of fanfic.

No fanfic required, you can see that sections of the colony are in better shape, and unless the USMC makes rooms solely for the purpose of concealing camera equipment used for filming impregnation of humans I am pretty sure that is one of the many quick refits.

QuoteThey can all fit together.

Quote from: SM on Mar 11, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
17 years since Resurrection nullified the comic/ novel/ game continuity, and numerous disparate stories in the meantime and yet still no one's been able to fit it all together in any way that is remotely convincing.

This is coming from someone that for whatever reason doesn't like the other mediums.  You know they used to have issues like this with Marvel comics...  Writers would be tasked with writing comics that they wanted nothing to do with and so they would screw up the storys on purpose.  This is where you get the 616 universe in marvel, the guy that named the prime marvel universe the 616 universe hated superhero comics.  Similar thing happened with the Punisher as well.  One writer was tasked with writing Punisher comics.  He hated the Punisher so he made the character break his own moral codes do other stupid crap not in character with the character.

Its never a good idea to try and get someone to fit the stories together when that person already doesn't like those stories and wants to make a mockery out of them.

Just a small piece of fact in universe in regards to people not knowing about the aliens after the attack on multiple planets in human space.  It was shown even before the the records were erased that the United Americas where executing people just for stumbling into artifacts that came from pilots.  Also it shows a lot of colony didn't even know about the Aliens period because they were cut off.  This completely excludes colonys from other countries, countries that don't even exist after the wars on earth.  Their is no one to tell them what happened that they would trust, this is not some unified gov like in SW or Halo, this also excludes rogue colonies that are at war with the United Americas...

---

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 12:15:39 AM
Darth Rinzler, there's definitely only one Derelict on LV-426. It doesn't even take all that much work to line up the myriad stories it shows up in.

For being in the ass-end of space, LV-426 is pretty much the Tattooine of the A/P/AvP franchise, and the Derelict is its Mos Eisley Cantina. :P

I have to humbly disagree based on records of a ship in ACM that the techs are talking about, and the ship that Winter enters.  I guess that is for another topic though.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 12:15:39 AM
I'm pretty fond of the "fuzzy continuity" idea.
Shit, even the movies aren't internally consistent - not with each other and sometimes not even with themselves. Heck, "fuzzy continuity" would make "Engineers = Space Jockeys" a bit more palatable from where I'm sitting.

Hey fox is ok with it, I am ok with it, the Aliens are ok with it XD

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
I don't really agree with this - I think "fuzzy continuity" would allow for a ton more wiggle-room with regard to continuity snags and whatnot. It would acknowledge that at face-value there's contradictions present, but that many of those contradictions can be overlooked, are open to interpretation, aren't meant to be taken literally, or otherwise aren't quite as they appear. Some elements from stories would be true, but not necessarily everything.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
I know, and that's okay. :)

As long as you know that.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
So I think I finally figured out what it is about an AvP multiverse idea that bugs me so much.
A multiverse and personal canon are by and large the same thing, with one fundamental difference:

With personal canon, people can make up whatever they want to believe, reinterpret stuff however they want, pick and choose sources, etc. That's totally great, whatever makes them happy. No one's beliefs really has any bearing on anybody else's in the grand scheme of the fictional "universe".

It took you twenty one pages to finally figure out that my argument really doesn't even under-mind personal canon? Well, better late than never I suppose. However I am interested in knowing what bugs you about the idea of an AvP multiverse. And you have answered that quite nicely to me to which I can respond to about....now.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
With a multiverse, suddenly everyone's beliefs are on equal footing and all of them objectively "exist" within the grand scheme of the "universe". I'm not a real huge fan of that - I don't like the idea that there's a universe where 'AvP' never happened, but in a multiverse there objectively is a universe where that is the case, full stop.

So it took you twenty one pages, endless run around circles for you to come to a realization that you don't like the idea that there maybe not just one but maybe two or more universes where AvP didn't happen in anyway shape or form? Have you considered the possibility that there are more universes in a multiverse where AvP encounters did happen but some more differently than others, and others being so radically different that they could theoretically be in their own universe?

But that is the beauty of having a multiverse. There is no main universe. All universes have their own linear. Each universe is unique and able to stand on their own with common similarities, or subtle differences.. or vast differences and subtle similarities. If you don't like the idea of one or more universes where AvP didn't happen, then don't focus on those universes. Pick any of the universes where AvP happened, and focus on those universes where any AvP had happened.. even if they don't line up with any of the films.. Capcom's AvP included. And hell, why not Operation Aliens as well since that may incorporate Hive Wars, though the latter I may think be another universe but that is a smaller scaled debate.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
But what if suddenly everyone was forced to acknowledge that everyone else's interpretations and beliefs were equally true? I don't think it would go over that well.

How?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
And if everyone's interpretation is objectively just as true within the multiverse as anybody else's, then for all intents and purposes there is no "canon".

The Dr. Who franchise and fandom seems to be going strong just fine since there is no real canon except for what the stories tell. Similarly enough to our own beloved franchise-- though Fox's stance is that everything is canon, according to the quotes you posted. BBC's is that there is no canon. Same difference if you ask me.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 12, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Keep in mind - the multiverse idea itself *is* "personal canon", and is also a fan-retcon to address continuity snags. And like how you don't like my retcons, I don't buy into this one. :)

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Though, I would go as to say it's a theory or a concept.. Which may end up becoming a personal project if I find the will to work on it. I've already got an introduction down.

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 12, 2014, 08:11:21 PM
This is coming from someone that for whatever reason doesn't like the other mediums.  You know they used to have issues like this with Marvel comics...  Writers would be tasked with writing comics that they wanted nothing to do with and so they would screw up the storys on purpose.  This is where you get the 616 universe in marvel, the guy that named the prime marvel universe the 616 universe hated superhero comics.  Similar thing happened with the Punisher as well.  One writer was tasked with writing Punisher comics.  He hated the Punisher so he made the character break his own moral codes do other stupid crap not in character with the character.

Are you referring to Garth Ennis' Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe? Because... That was never set in Earth-616.

QuoteNope I have looked it over both in the story mode and in vs mode, its outer skin is the only thing damaged on the arm.

Then you weren't paying attention.  When facing the three portals where Dallas and co. entered in Alien you can turn left and see the starboard prong - but you can't see the hammer head prong when you turn to the right.  Additionally there's a crack in the hull in the same place as there was in Aliens.

QuoteYes you can for the reasons I already posted.

You've not posted any reasons.

QuoteSo it is a contradiction that the Marines are not using it for scouting purposes in Aliens, and it is a contradiction that the crew in the first Alien didn't use the Pup to check to see if it was safe to enter the Pilots ship.  You could even say that its also a contradiction that the salvage crew didn't use the pups for safety reasons when they breached the door of the life pod.

You can make up anything you like to explain why stuff does or doesn't fit.  It won't change anything.  We already know the PUPs wouldn't have told the marines very much.

QuoteDoesn't matter they had nearly 100 years to improve the technology and you don't see it anywhere not even Alien Res.  Prometheus has to many massive technological advances that the rest of the films should have had but don't.  That is a contradiction.

But with your fondness for making things up - why not simply say that making something the size of a starship float using antigravity isn't energy efficient and jets are ultimately preferred.

QuoteNo fanfic required, you can see that sections of the colony are in better shape, and unless the USMC makes rooms solely for the purpose of concealing camera equipment used for filming impregnation of humans I am pretty sure that is one of the many quick refits.

lol

QuoteThis is coming from someone that for whatever reason doesn't like the other mediums.

Wrong again.

QuoteJust a small piece of fact in universe in regards to people not knowing about the aliens after the attack on multiple planets in human space.  It was shown even before the the records were erased that the United Americas where executing people just for stumbling into artifacts that came from pilots.  Also it shows a lot of colony didn't even know about the Aliens period because they were cut off.  This completely excludes colonys from other countries, countries that don't even exist after the wars on earth.  Their is no one to tell them what happened that they would trust, this is not some unified gov like in SW or Halo, this also excludes rogue colonies that are at war with the United Americas...

This is based on what?

QuoteIt took you twenty one pages to finally figure out that my argument really doesn't even under-mind personal canon?

Well it... it kinda does, though.

Let's say there's a person who hates, and I mean *hates* the AvP concept. Like they cannot stand it.
From what I'm seeing with your multiverse approach, there is objectively a universe in which AvP takes place, and there's nothing the AvP-hater can do about it. They can ignore it all they want, but that AvP universe is still "true" somewhere.

You can see how this would conflict with someone's "personal canon" that AvP doesn't exist, right?

Quote
So it took you twenty one pages, endless run around circles for you to come to a realization that you don't like the idea that there maybe not just one but maybe two or more universes where AvP didn't happen in anyway shape or form?

I... I actually thought I was pretty up-front about that from the start. :P

QuotePick any of the universes where AvP happened, and focus on those universes where any AvP had happened.. even if they don't line up with any of the films.. Capcom's AvP included. And hell, why not Operation Aliens as well since that may incorporate Hive Wars, though the latter I may think be another universe but that is a smaller scaled debate.

It doesn't sound like you're allowing for a universe where everything happened.

QuoteHow?

What do you mean?

For a real-world example, check out this (http://imgur.com/FzrJY). Or hell, any time any disagreement between different sects of a religion, such as the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_Christ#The_Eucharist_and_Real_Presence). Each group (and hell, many times each individual within that group) has their own set of beliefs and they're often incompatible, or some might incorporate different scriptures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon), or interpret those scriptures differently.

But the important part is, even though all their beliefs differ, no one is forcing anyone else to accept that someone else's beliefs are true.
With a "multiverse", you're saying that everyone's beliefs are objectively true somewhere in some pocket universe. You can't see why people might have a problem with that?

QuoteSimilarly enough to our own beloved franchise-- though Fox's stance is that everything is canon, according to the quotes you posted. BBC's is that there is no canon. Same difference if you ask me.

I never understood this stance. If everything is canon, then, uh, everything is canon. That's pretty different from nothing being canon. If there's contradictions, you can work around them somehow - there's contradictions in the Bible, the very source of the concept of "canon", but that hasn't stopped anybody. Similarly there's contradictions in literally every multimedia franchise ever made, no matter what their "canon" policy is. As mentioned, there's contradictions within individual sources, A/P/AvP franchise included. :P

And if one doesn't like everything being canon, they're free to discard what they want and believe whatever makes them happy since it's all fiction anyway and at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

QuoteThough, I would go as to say it's a theory or a concept

Sounds like semantics to me. :P
I could say that any of my "fanon" explanations for continuity discrepancies are "theories", too.

Maybe I'll write up a more concrete version of my fuzzy continuity "theory" sometime.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
Let's say there's a person who hates, and I mean *hates* the AvP concept. Like they cannot stand it.
From what I'm seeing with your multiverse approach, there is objectively a universe in which AvP takes place, and there's nothing the AvP-hater can do about it. They can ignore it all they want, but that AvP universe is still "true" somewhere.

You can see how this would conflict with someone's "personal canon" that AvP doesn't exist, right?

You mean just like how I hate PREDATORS? Sure, I hate the movie and I think that movie should never have happened at all but I am not going to be harassing fans because they liked that movie which I so happened to disagree with. Know what I do? I ignore it. If they want to follow a universe which has a concept or movie I don't like, their choice. They can focus on a universe they like in an AvP Multiverse, I can focus on a universe I like. Not that hard a concept to grasp. Just like.. personal canon.

I would think that the multiverse allows a fan to ignore what they don't like, and follow a universe which they want to follow. I follow the AvP continuity though I also respect the stances which the producers and directors say where their works stand, and I don't blindly follow what Fox says. Personal canon allows that, so does a multiverse.

If a fan is going to get worked up over the fact that there is an alternate universe that they don't like.. Well, that's their problem and I most certainly would not count them in the equation.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
I... I actually thought I was pretty up-front about that from the start. :P

Not really, your argument was more: "I don't like the multiverse." rather than "I don't like the multiverse because there are universes where AvP didn't happen."

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
It doesn't sound like you're allowing for a universe where everything happened.

I didn't say that, you did.. But you know what, I'll humor you.

A multiverse allows a myriad of possibilities of different universes to exist. As I already mentioned, there could be some quite similar to each other with subtle differences, and some which could be vastly different with subtle similarities. We've already discussed the possibilities of several universes where AvP encounters didn't happen, we also mentioned many universes where AvP encounters did happen. I hope you are ready for what I am about to tell you.

Maybe there are universes where AvP encounters happened.. Just differently. Say there is a universe where an Alien and Predator, named Abe and Preston are living in New York, who also happen to be roommates and friends. Maybe there is another universe where an Alien named Bob, and a Predator named Prog go on crazy adventures with some guy named Shipley.  :P

Bonus points to anyone who gets the last reference.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
For a real-world example, check out this (http://imgur.com/FzrJY). Or hell, any time any disagreement between different sects of a religion, such as the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_Christ#The_Eucharist_and_Real_Presence). Each group (and hell, many times each individual within that group) has their own set of beliefs and they're often incompatible, or some might incorporate different scriptures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon), or interpret those scriptures differently.

You're using a church sign fight which clearly is either fake, or a humorous troll attempt from one church to another to serve as ammunition for your argument? Either you are trying to break my mind to bending to your argument or you are running out of ammunition. You haven't been able to serve a fair argument to why there shouldn't be a multiverse outside of "I don't like the multiverse, because there are universes where AvP didn't happen."

As for the religion argument, well.. people are free to choose whatever faith they want. Knowing someone who is a Man of the Cloth, he has told me that every faith has a bit of the truth. But people are free to choose whatever they want.

Sounds like personal canon and what the multiverse concept can offer.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
With a "multiverse", you're saying that everyone's beliefs are objectively true somewhere in some pocket universe. You can't see why people might have a problem with that?

No. None whatsoever. Unless there are rabid fans who actively try and force their views onto another.. but I haven't heard of any Alien or Predator fans doing that. I'm sure those people exist but... I think we can count them out of the equation.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 12:17:41 AM
Similarly there's contradictions in literally every multimedia franchise ever made, no matter what their "canon" policy is. As mentioned, there's contradictions within individual sources, A/P/AvP franchise included. :P

Another franchise which I know of that has continuity snags as well as canon issues is the Dragonball franchise. You have fans saying that Dragonball and Dragonball Z are canon, but GT is not considered canon-- despite GT having the least inconsistencies and Toriyama serving as a consultant, and instead replace GT with either Dragonball Online or DBZ: Battle of the Gods. Then there are the fans who say that GT is canon. Then you have the Dragonball movies which have continuity divergences from the main series but connect to them, yet these are seen as side-stories.. yet are considered non-canon by the fans. Last I looked... Toei views all Dragonball media as canon.. Just like Fox views all Alien-Predator media as canon.

So why are you telling me something I already know?

QuoteUnless there are rabid fans who actively try and force their views onto another.. but I haven't heard of any Alien or Predator fans doing that.

:laugh:

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 02:00:04 AM
:laugh:

....Damn..

Sorry - were you being serious?

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 02:29:34 AM
Sorry - were you being serious?

Disregard that part. I meant to get the point across at how some fans flame others, you know with the all caps letters and the internet yelling.. That sort of stuff.

Oh right.

QuoteThey can focus on a universe they like in an AvP Multiverse, I can focus on a universe I like. Not that hard a concept to grasp. Just like.. personal canon.

I would think that the multiverse allows a fan to ignore what they don't like, and follow a universe which they want to follow. I follow the AvP continuity though I also respect the stances which the producers and directors say where their works stand, and I don't blindly follow what Fox says. Personal canon allows that, so does a multiverse.

I suppose I don't see the upshot of a multiverse over how things work currently, then.

It just comes across as a hollow attempt to give legitimacy to interpretations that I personally don't agree with. Why would I support that? :P It's like teaching creationism in schools alongside evolution and expecting everyone to give both interpretations equal weight and validity.

QuoteI didn't say that, you did..

Ehhhh it's been a bit of an underlying theme. Look back at your posts, you never mention an "all encompassing" universe unless someone else prompts you for one, and then there's posts like this (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1875600#msg1875600) that seem to outright state that an all-encompassing universe can't exist.

QuoteA multiverse allows a myriad of possibilities of different universes to exist. As I already mentioned, there could be some quite similar to each other with subtle differences, and some which could be vastly different with subtle similarities. We've already discussed the possibilities of several universes where AvP encounters didn't happen, we also mentioned many universes where AvP encounters did happen. I hope you are ready for what I am about to tell you.

That's a whole lotta words to not actually say anything. ???
Like nowhere in that paragraph does it even hint the possibility of a universe where everything happened in one timeline. You know, the one thing I support. So are you saying that in order for me to support "everything" in the EU or whatever, my only option is to just subscribe to several multiverse universes at once? Because that's, uh, that's literally the exact opposite of what I want.
That's really what it seems like you're saying here.

QuoteYou haven't been able to serve a fair argument to why there shouldn't be a multiverse outside of "I don't like the multiverse, because there are universes where AvP didn't happen."

And you haven't been able to serve a fair argument to why a multiverse is better than the "personal canon" concept that's worked fine for years (and has worked fine for every world religion for thousands of years).

Also you'll notice that your Dragonball example didn't actually address my point. I'll go ahead and repost it I guess:
I never understood this stance. If everything is canon, then, uh, everything is canon. That's pretty different from nothing being canon. If there's contradictions, you can work around them somehow - there's contradictions in the Bible, the very source of the concept of "canon", but that hasn't stopped anybody.

"If everything is canon, then nothing is canon" sounds an awful lot like Syndrome's mantra of "if everybody is special... then no one is" from 'The Incredibles'.
You realize he was the bad guy and that the movie points out that he's wrong, right?

Quote from: Darth Rinzler on Mar 12, 2014, 08:11:21 PM
This is coming from someone that for whatever reason doesn't like the other mediums.  You know they used to have issues like this with Marvel comics...  Writers would be tasked with writing comics that they wanted nothing to do with and so they would screw up the storys on purpose.  This is where you get the 616 universe in marvel, the guy that named the prime marvel universe the 616 universe hated superhero comics.  Similar thing happened with the Punisher as well.  One writer was tasked with writing Punisher comics.  He hated the Punisher so he made the character break his own moral codes do other stupid crap not in character with the character.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 12, 2014, 10:03:31 PM
Are you referring to Garth Ennis' Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe? Because... That was never set in Earth-616.

Heck no Garth loves the Punisher.  I am talking about his comics back in the 80s I think around the time he quote unquote died, he wasn't really dead, and had a bunch of other Punishers replace him. 

---

QuoteNope I have looked it over both in the story mode and in vs mode, its outer skin is the only thing damaged on the arm.

Quote from: SM on Mar 12, 2014, 10:23:30 PM
Then you weren't paying attention.  When facing the three portals where Dallas and co. entered in Alien you can turn left and see the starboard prong - but you can't see the hammer head prong when you turn to the right.  Additionally there's a crack in the hull in the same place as there was in Aliens.

I have been over this, I even checked it again, made another video showing the damage since I deleted the last one since you guys insisted you didn't need to see it.

QuoteYes you can for the reasons I already posted.

Quote from: SM on Mar 12, 2014, 10:23:30 PM
You've not posted any reasons.

I have though...

QuoteSo it is a contradiction that the Marines are not using it for scouting purposes in Aliens, and it is a contradiction that the crew in the first Alien didn't use the Pup to check to see if it was safe to enter the Pilots ship.  You could even say that its also a contradiction that the salvage crew didn't use the pups for safety reasons when they breached the door of the life pod.

Quote from: SM on Mar 12, 2014, 10:23:30 PM
You can make up anything you like to explain why stuff does or doesn't fit.  It won't change anything.  We already know the PUPs wouldn't have told the marines very much.

I am not making anything up, that is exactly what that technology would be used for, we use similar equipment like it right now in the USN and search and rescue missions.

Another contradiction is how small the scanning lasers are in the pup.  The salvage team in Alien used a scanning laser that had so many internal components just in the laser itself that it could have held 3 or more pups inside itself.

It also doesn't matter if the Marines would have not detected the Aliens with the Pups, if your argument is that they wouldn't use equipment that wouldn't have worked finding the aliens then their is a problem with this point because then the Marines would never have used their infrared sensors.

QuoteDoesn't matter they had nearly 100 years to improve the technology and you don't see it anywhere not even Alien Res.  Prometheus has to many massive technological advances that the rest of the films should have had but don't.  That is a contradiction.

Quote from: SM on Mar 12, 2014, 10:23:30 PM
But with your fondness for making things up - why not simply say that making something the size of a starship float using antigravity isn't energy efficient and jets are ultimately preferred.

I am not making anything up.  This point also would never explain away why their are no pups used by any of the people in the first two alien movies in situations they would have used them.  It doesn't explain away why technology and weapons derived from the pup are created.  It would not explain away anything small that could use the anti-gravity technology other than a pup.

QuoteJust a small piece of fact in universe in regards to people not knowing about the aliens after the attack on multiple planets in human space.  It was shown even before the the records were erased that the United Americas where executing people just for stumbling into artifacts that came from pilots.  Also it shows a lot of colony didn't even know about the Aliens period because they were cut off.  This completely excludes colonys from other countries, countries that don't even exist after the wars on earth.  Their is no one to tell them what happened that they would trust, this is not some unified gov like in SW or Halo, this also excludes rogue colonies that are at war with the United Americas...

Quote from: SM on Mar 12, 2014, 10:23:30 PM
This is based on what?

The first two facts are based off what is seen in Aliens Wraith.  The main character and his family never heard about the alien nor earth and colonys being wiped out by aliens.  In the end of the story he and his friends are killed by American soldiers just for seeing an Alien and Pilot artifacts.

Third fact its clearly not a Unified government otherwise you wouldn't have The United Americas, you wouldn't have Russia, France, Japan, China, the UK, Italy, and Ireland as separate governments on Earth, up on till Resurrection.  And if we where allies you wouldn't see China, France, and I think the UK selling their tanks and weapons to planets that are at war with the United Americas, France is at least neutral since they have a exchange program with the United Americas, which would be no different when we sent S.E.A.L.s to train with Spetsnaz.

If America wasn't fighting other countries in space and other planets you wouldn't see them using Anti-vehicle weapons, bunker busters, stealth spooffers, weapons meant to disrupt and destroy equipment that uses electricity or attack craft like the AD-19C/D Bearcat, AD-17A Cougar strike-ships, the UD-4 and UD-22 Navaho gunships.   

Hell their would be no point in have the Untied States Colonial NAVY, Aerospace force, or even the Coast Guard.  Their would be no need to develop and practice tactics for Capital space warfare let alone having the Okinawa class assault carrier.

They show in the comics that alot of the countries were wiped out by the aliens before showing the Americans leaving the planet.

As for trust.

Heres a quote

Quote

"I tell you, I damn near filled my pants; as we ran up that road there were buzzboms and shit popping off all around us.  The bugboys had ambushed us from the low, thorny alien Karyta that lined both sides of Highway Two on the straight stretch up to Suivre.  The rear panzer - Harrow's nmber forty-one - brewd up and Russell's nember thirty was immoblized by a track hit before we could shoot off any decoys.  I immediately ordered the company off the road and we charge into the Karyta, firing APF [Anti-Personnel Flechette rounds] at point blank and spraying the area with the flamethrowers.  Atthesight of us coming, the B-Boys cut and run, abandoning all the new anti-tank equipment they'd bought from the Brits and Japs.  Those assholes that stayed we rand over or toasted.

"That night, we argued over the body count.  Sergeant Bulow insisted we'd got nine of theirs for the loss of one panzer crew and another injured.  But I pointed out that the fire control trech Murae had run over had been too badly smooshed to count properly.  Judging from the mess left behind there could have been three or four people in there together, or just one spread over a wide area.  Since the skin and bone was magled into mush, theere was no way to tell.  PFC Herbick suggested we go bac and see how many teeth we could dig out, but I passed on that one.  Against the Sergeant's objections, I had to count the trech as a single enemy causality..."

- Captain Hayward J. Lay, Jr, 3rd Colonial Marine Tank Battalion, Linna 349

So after fighting the Americans for a good while to get them off your planet and they kill your friends and family in horrible ways, and have fun picking through their corpses you really think if they came back too this planet quoted above they are going to believe these Americans that the human race is getting picked off by aliens they have never seen before and they want to call a time out on the fighting. 

Not only would I think its a trap, they are trying to lure out the heads of command so they can kill them, I would call BS.

I have other examples to of human combatants from other planets being killed by Americans and they get a kick out of those peoples death, do you think any of those planets are going to believe the Americans when they tell them and Alien they have never seen before is kicking humanities ass?

Heck I would not be surprised if this is one of the many planets that the United Systems is having trouble with and is why they want to use Aliens on them for urban pacification.

USM:  We have come to help you after this long time we have not made contact  We are the United Systems Military, the military of the United Systems govenerment.  We ask you to join us.

Bugboy:  Join America -_-

USM: No we are the USM.

Bugboy:  You sound American...

USM: I am from the North American contenant yes...  Most people that live on earth descended from the travelers from The United Americas.

Bugboy: So you are American if most people from earth are descendents of the United Americas...?

USM: If you put it that way I suppose soo why?

Bugboy: (action pulls out gun)  [Bang]

QuoteI am not making anything up.

And yet continue to post things to the contrary.

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 10:04:38 PM

QuoteI am not making anything up.

And yet continue to post things to the contrary.

I'm surprised that you even bother responding to his epic walls of - fanonized fabrications delusionally mistaken as canon - texts.

I am so sorry for the late response. Yesterday, I was so physically and mentally tired that I just simply did not feel like responding until I felt mentally rejuvenated enough to do so..

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
I suppose I don't see the upshot of a multiverse over how things work currently, then.

That much is obvious.. But you know what, that's fine.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
It just comes across as a hollow attempt to give legitimacy to interpretations that I personally don't agree with. Why would I support that? :P It's like teaching creationism in schools alongside evolution and expecting everyone to give both interpretations equal weight and validity.

I would disagree that it would be something you would consider very hollow. If anything it's an idea to give an attempt at organizing the stories. It's not necessarily a tool to determine what's canon and what isn't but rather a means to sort everything out and organize them to help make sense. In my opinion, and a few others-- the idea of a multiverse solves a lot of issues.

As for the idea of teaching creationism and evolution alongside each other in schools.. That's a completely different field than what we are arguing and irrelevant.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
Ehhhh it's been a bit of an underlying theme. Look back at your posts, you never mention an "all encompassing" universe unless someone else prompts you for one, and then there's posts like this (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.msg1875600#msg1875600) that seem to outright state that an all-encompassing universe can't exist.

The multiverse idea doesn't even really undermine personal canon, or even fanon worlds-- if anything it ENCOURAGES those things while, as SpreadEagleBeagle says-- gives script writers, novelist and comic writers a lot more freedom to construct their own worlds based on the franchises. The multiverse idea can to be applied to official stories and worlds which are depicted in the films, novels, comics, and games. There is a theory in real life science concerning the multiverse that there are new universes always being born. It has a name, it's called Eternal Inflation-- but the idea is that new universes are being born always. This can be applied to fiction-- for example, if you have a fanon world already in your mind, then it can hypothetically exist in a multiverse.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
Like nowhere in that paragraph does it even hint the possibility of a universe where everything happened in one timeline. You know, the one thing I support. So are you saying that in order for me to support "everything" in the EU or whatever, my only option is to just subscribe to several multiverse universes at once? Because that's, uh, that's literally the exact opposite of what I want.

That's really what it seems like you're saying here.

See my above comment..

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
Also you'll notice that your Dragonball example didn't actually address my point. I'll go ahead and repost it I guess:
I never understood this stance. If everything is canon, then, uh, everything is canon. That's pretty different from nothing being canon. If there's contradictions, you can work around them somehow - there's contradictions in the Bible, the very source of the concept of "canon", but that hasn't stopped anybody.

"If everything is canon, then nothing is canon" sounds an awful lot like Syndrome's mantra of "if everybody is special... then no one is" from 'The Incredibles'.

Then I will go back to using Doctor Who has an example. BBC's stance on the Doctor Who franchise is that there is no canon. Twentieth Century Fox's stance on the Alien and Predator franchises are that everything is canon. The end result is ultimately the same because for both Doctor Who and Alien-Predator is that fans have to cherry pick on what they want. This ends up to leading to canon debates for both Doctor Who and Alien-Predator between fans.

Also.. I don't see how the idea of a multiverse takes away from every world being unique which you are suggesting is the case.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 13, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
You realize he was the bad guy and that the movie points out that he's wrong, right?

You probably don't think I'm a very nice guy, do you?

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 14, 2014, 02:30:48 PM

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 10:04:38 PM

QuoteI am not making anything up.

And yet continue to post things to the contrary.

I'm surprised that you even bother responding to his epic walls of - fanonized fabrications delusionally mistaken as canon - texts.

My "one-liners" is about the best I can muster anymore.  Mainly cos I've completely lost track of his point.

QuoteAs for the idea of teaching creationism and evolution alongside each other in schools.. That's a completely different field than what we are arguing and irrelevant.

I think you missed the point I was making - it's about taking two competing viewpoints and forcing them to be accepted simultaneously (that there is a universe where AvP happens, and a universe where AvP doesn't happen, to pick one example) just to be "fair".

QuoteThe multiverse idea doesn't even really undermine personal canon, or even fanon worlds-- if anything it ENCOURAGES those things while, as SpreadEagleBeagle says-- gives script writers, novelist and comic writers a lot more freedom to construct their own worlds based on the franchises. The multiverse idea can to be applied to official stories and worlds which are depicted in the films, novels, comics, and games. There is a theory in real life science concerning the multiverse that there are new universes always being born. It has a name, it's called Eternal Inflation-- but the idea is that new universes are being born always. This can be applied to fiction-- for example, if you have a fanon world already in your mind, then it can hypothetically exist in a multiverse.

I'll ask a simple yes-or-no question then.

Is there a universe within the multiverse where everything happened in one timeline. Yes or no, one word answer only, please. :)

QuoteThen I will go back to using Doctor Who has an example. BBC's stance on the Doctor Who franchise is that there is no canon. Twentieth Century Fox's stance on the Alien and Predator franchises are that everything is canon. The end result is ultimately the same because for both Doctor Who and Alien-Predator is that fans have to cherry pick on what they want. This ends up to leading to canon debates for both Doctor Who and Alien-Predator between fans.

But cherry-picking what they want is true of literally every fictional franchise ever. Fans do it in everything, and have done it for forever. People have done it with any and all religious texts for thousands of years. "You have to cherry pick" therefore doesn't seem like a terribly compelling argument for "there is no canon".
Other franchises have an "official canon", and then fans get to ignore that and do whatever makes them happy. FOX/AvP is no different - in that case, it's just that "everything is canon" (officially), and then individuals get to ignore that and do whatever they want. Doctor Who is distinctly different because, like you said, there is no "official canon". But like you said - the end result is the same: just like with every other fictional franchise out there, the fans get to pick and choose what they want.

So it's almost like debating what's "officially canon" is a retarded waste of time. ;)

QuoteAlso.. I don't see how the idea of a multiverse takes away from every world being unique which you are suggesting is the case.

I'm not sure where you got this idea from. What do you mean?

Props on the Boddicker reference, though. :) I recently re-watched Robocop on bluray and it looks fantastic. Off-topic, have you seen Our Robocop Remake (http://www.ourrobocopremake.com/) yet? (WARNING: MEGA-NSFW at times) It's goddamn hilarious.

Multiverse all the way.

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 10:04:38 PM

QuoteI am not making anything up.

And yet continue to post things to the contrary.

Most of my sources came from Aliens materiel, but what ever this proves my point.  You don't like the stuff and anything I point out that proves to actually compliment the mediums working together you call it fanon.

Only that's not at all what you did, you would show us two different pieces of media and SPECULATE how they connected.
That is fanon.

Quote from: SM on Mar 14, 2014, 10:24:33 PM

Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Mar 14, 2014, 02:30:48 PM

Quote from: SM on Mar 13, 2014, 10:04:38 PM

QuoteI am not making anything up.

And yet continue to post things to the contrary.

I'm surprised that you even bother responding to his epic walls of - fanonized fabrications delusionally mistaken as canon - texts.

My "one-liners" is about the best I can muster anymore.  Mainly cos I've completely lost track of his point.

I have multiple points.

1) your argument that AvP is noncanon because it contradicts other movies is a flawed one because every movie in the series contradicts itself especially Prometheus.

2)You asked for evidence that the humans are not living under a one One gov system until Alien Res, and I gave it, even used quotes.

3) You asked for reference that even before the database was cleaned their where groups of humans that knew nothing about the Alien and it causing the death of the majority of people on Earth and other planets.  I did

4) You asked for a reference that even before the database was cleaned, that the United Americas was executing people for stumbling into Pilot artifacts and or aliens because of personal agendas.  I did.

So basically what you did their was ask how all the mediums could fit together, I gave you references and quotes how they do, and then say those stories are noncanon which defeats the whole purpose of talking about how the stories linked together. 

---

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 06:40:56 PM
Only that's not at all what you did, you would show us two different pieces of media and SPECULATE how they connected.
That is fanon.

Their was no speculation.  And now since you are just jumping into this you have to be 100% specific on what you are saying is speculation.

There's no point, you've just blatantly refuted all the evidence against you up until this point in favor of theories.
No-wonder you're religious, I won't be discussing with someone your caliber of intelligence

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 07:01:16 PM
There's no point, you've just blatantly refuted all the evidence against you up until this point in favor of theories.
No-wonder you're religious, I won't be discussing with someone your caliber of intelligence

Making more personal attacks?  I don't have any evidence against me, your throwing a fit now which is why, A you are giving up because their is canonical information that conflicts with your speculation and B you have resorted to making personal attacks which is all you can do at this point.

No I'm not resorting I'm concluding.

You can argue with SM endlessly if you like but I'm just saying I won't waste my time on a someone who endlessly posts outdated beliefs and somehow thinks there are 3 Derelicts on LV-426?

Yeah, sure you're trustworthy. :laugh:

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 07:11:45 PM
No I'm not resorting I'm concluding.

You can argue with SM endlessly if you like but I'm just saying I won't waste my time on a someone who endlessly posts outdated beliefs and somehow thinks there are 3 Derelicts on LV-426?

Yeah, sure you're trustworthy. :laugh:

You are resorting.  You have no idea what my profession is let alone my I.Q.  My belief is not outdated ether, I know God is real since I "survived" a very terrible haunting, and I can't stress SURVIVE enough since it started to physically harm me.

Lastly you are speculating that their is just one Derelict ship on LV-426, or I should say blatantly ignoring evidence that their is more than one.  Besides the ship not having the damage done to it that is recorded by a WY freelancer the Pilot has two exist holes in its chest.

 

I believe in ghosts but that does not mean there is a God, in fact I should think otherwise from what I witnessed.
Belief in a Deity isn't outdated either, believe in the Christian one is.

Every source we have says it is the same one.
Other than you, only you.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 07:24:22 PM
I believe in ghosts but that does not mean there is a God, in fact I should think otherwise from what I witnessed.
Belief in a Deity isn't outdated either, believe in the Christian one is.

Every source we have says it is the same one.
Other than you, only you.

Except in the Bible Jesus gives detail about using his name to cast out demons and other dark entities and it worked on the first try.  That and my arm was healed after a Priest did a prayer for my arm to be healed.  You might be used to dealing with Christians that only have the Bible as a point of reference but right now you are dealing with one that has dealt with paranormal issues.

And what is your sources?  Its audio logs, which you are assuming are about the Ship Winter enters, the ship in Alien and Aliens, which again you assume is the same one Winter enters.  The ship that Winter enters has no arm broken off period.  And I can upload and post a video showing that next weekend.  The Pilot in this ship has two exit holes in its chest and their is no hole leading to a egg chamber in the Pilots room ether.

Rinzler, Lensherr... Enough of the quabbling. Honestly, this spat is getting a little out of hand. I don't want the admins coming in and brandishing the lock and ban-hammer.  >:(

Anyway.. Xenomrph, I've decided to post in response to your last posts.. So here we go.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
I think you missed the point I was making - it's about taking two competing viewpoints and forcing them to be accepted simultaneously (that there is a universe where AvP happens, and a universe where AvP doesn't happen, to pick one example) just to be "fair".

No one is forcing anything. It just gives people a chance to choose what worlds they want to follow.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
I'll ask a simple yes-or-no question then.

Alright.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
Is there a universe within the multiverse where everything happened in one timeline. Yes or no, one word answer only, please. :)

That is not exactly fair to ask me to give you an answer with just one word in the form of Yes or No because that would mean I would be depriving you of information in the context of a multiverse. But since you asked.. and perhaps to the shock of myself, and perhaps others.. I'll answer this.

Yes.

Now, I want to explain myself here.. While I myself and perhaps many others would not want to follow this universe as it would require a lot of fan retcons to explain it's existence, the multiverse can allow this universe to exist. However it would be one of perhaps few or many "bizarro" universes. But when you think about certain contexts and theories.. this can exist.

You mention Operation Aliens existing alongside the films as a work of fictional propaganda, but not necessarily really taking place in that particular universe. In the multiverse I have explained that there is one universe where the events of Aliens didn't necessarily happen as they did in the movie (nowhere near as many casualties for the Marines) and the events of Alien 3 didn't happen. In another universe, the events of Aliens happened as they did and so did Alien 3.. but Operation Aliens being a fictional work within the context of a multiverse can happen in the context of fictional realism. The theory of fictional realism is that what we create and perceive as fiction... could actually exist as it's own universe in the multiverse.

http://soulbonding.wordpress.com/fictional-realism/ (http://soulbonding.wordpress.com/fictional-realism/)
http://www.class.uh.edu/phil/garson/Thomasson%20-%20Fictional%20Entities.pdf (http://www.class.uh.edu/phil/garson/Thomasson%20-%20Fictional%20Entities.pdf)

In other words... Your little unified world potentially can exist within the multiverse. And if AvP: Evolution is to be taken seriously, and this is a BIG assumption.. then it likely does.

The idea of the multiverse was to sort and organize official works.. Not fanon ones but fanon worlds can exist in the realm of a multiverse.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
But cherry-picking what they want is true of literally every fictional franchise ever.

You don't say?

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
Other franchises have an "official canon", and then fans get to ignore that and do whatever makes them happy. FOX/AvP is no different - in that case, it's just that "everything is canon" (officially), and then individuals get to ignore that and do whatever they want. Doctor Who is distinctly different because, like you said, there is no "official canon". But like you said - the end result is the same: just like with every other fictional franchise out there, the fans get to pick and choose what they want.

So it's almost like debating what's "officially canon" is a retarded waste of time. ;)

My argument so much wasn't that it's about the cherry picking but the fact that everything is disorganized and very confusing. You've already agreed with me that the outcome for both is pretty much the same. I will say that I do envy Star Wars' organizing of the films and the expanded universe, though not everyone can have such a dedicated fan following to actually form a canon hierarchy like what Leland Chee and the folks at LucasArts used to do. But I digress..

Also, I wanted to stay out of a canon debate-- but you turned it into one. I was merely trying to figure out how the fans would feel about a multiverse, and so far you're the only one who had turned the whole thing into a canon debate. You also turn everything into a circle run which... is frustrating. The idea of the multiverse is not to determine what is or isn't canon.. but to figure out it's placement in it. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
I'm not sure where you got this idea from. What do you mean

Your Syndrome statement from the Incredibles.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 14, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
Props on the Boddicker reference, though. :) I recently re-watched Robocop on bluray and it looks fantastic. Off-topic, have you seen Our Robocop Remake (http://www.ourrobocopremake.com/) yet? (WARNING: MEGA-NSFW at times) It's goddamn hilarious.

On a lighter note, I have heard of Our Robocop Remake.. and I have seen it. INSANE stuff there.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 07:24:22 PM
I believe in ghosts but that does not mean there is a God, in fact I should think otherwise from what I witnessed.
Belief in a Deity isn't outdated either, believe in the Christian one is.

Every source we have says it is the same one.
Other than you, only you.

Who cares? What the does this have to do with AvP?

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 16, 2014, 07:45:13 PM
Rinzler, Lensherr... Enough of the quabbling. Honestly, this spat is getting a little out of hand. I don't want the admins coming in and brandishing the lock and ban-hammer.  >:(

To late I am tried of the personal attacks even though I have not done any sort of aggression towards these people.   This is quasi fictional and yet now my have no credibility because I believe in God.  That makes a fraken lot of since  >:(

Point being it's hypocritical to cherry-pick in one medium and not another.

To talk as if you're the authority on Canon yet have no sources to back up your claims, the comparsion is apt.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 07:51:56 PM
Point being it's hypocritical to cherry-pick in one medium and not another.

To talk as if you're the authority on Canon yet have no sources to back up your claims, the comparsion is apt.

No I am pointing out major contradictions Prometheus has with other stories, you will note that I don't deny it being canon.  The point is you can't cherry-pick errors in one movie and ignore it in another they all have contradictions.

I don't talk as if I have authority I am following the stories themselves and what I see in those stories.  You are now being broad again and need better examples.

Technology being different isn't a contradiction.

& Like 2-3 Derelicts, you speculated that.

You have no sources that directly infer that.

QuoteNo one is forcing anything. It just gives people a chance to choose what worlds they want to follow.

Doesn't "personal canon" already do that?

QuoteYes.

Now, I want to explain myself here..

You really should have stopped at "yes". :P
I was trying to do you a favor, because everything else you said kinda undermined your point in my mind (and I knew it would).

If (and this is a really, REALLY colossal *IF*) I were to buy into the idea of a multiverse, it would absolutely be contingent on there being a universe where everything happened in one timeline.
It seemed to me like you said "yes... but not really, and with caveats". That's really a dealbreaker for me.

QuoteIn other words... Your little unified world potentially can exist within the multiverse.

I didn't ask if it can exist, I asked if it *did* exist. I was very particular with my wording. :)

QuoteThe idea of the multiverse is not to determine what is or isn't canon.. but to figure out it's placement in it. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can appreciate that, it just largely seems redundant in the face of "personal canon".
Like I said many pages ago, it's more of personal preference - AvP is simply a franchise that I personally prefer to be one timeline/universe (same thing, really). There are some franchises I feel it works fine with (Terminator, Transformers) and some that it doesn't (AvP, Star Wars).

QuoteYour Syndrome statement from the Incredibles.

I was drawing an analogy to your "if everything is canon (special), then nothing is" statement, and why it's not a particularly good way to look at things. :P

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 16, 2014, 08:06:12 PM
Like 2-3 Derelicts, you speculated that.

You have no sources that directly infer that.

Ehhhhhhhhhh I can see where he's coming from with it, even if I don't agree with it.
He's saying that in his view, the easiest way to reconcile the different (seemingly contradictory) depictions of encounters with the Derelict is that there's more than one Derelict.

I don't feel the different sources are contradictory enough to convincingly infer that (and I don't think many other people do, either :P), but I get where he's coming from. At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, it's similar to the reasoning behind my "Space Jockeys are not Engineers" theory. :P

But that's my point, it",'s only a theory and not-one he can base an entire solution around without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm really surprised that in one of this thread's flame wars no one has used the opportunity to say "You can derelict my balls."

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 17, 2014, 03:40:19 AM
But that's my point, it",'s only a theory and not-one he can base an entire solution around without any evidence whatsoever.

Well yeah, in that case I understand what you mean. :)

Sorry for the late response but real life has been kicking my ass and I'm trying to get back up through it..  >:(

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 17, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
Doesn't "personal canon" already do that?

Sure, but it requires a lot of fan retcons to sort through things. Sometimes it's minimal and built on interpretation, sometimes it's vast and sometimes has requires things to be, you know, made up on the fly to make things work. A multiverse really doesn't require much of those particular things in question.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 17, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
You really should have stopped at "yes". :P
I was trying to do you a favor, because everything else you said kinda undermined your point in my mind (and I knew it would).

If (and this is a really, REALLY colossal *IF*) I were to buy into the idea of a multiverse, it would absolutely be contingent on there being a universe where everything happened in one timeline.
It seemed to me like you said "yes... but not really, and with caveats". That's really a dealbreaker for me.

Not really, and I don't see how any of that does me any real favors for my argument. You basically tried to wrestle or back my argument into a corner and asked for a simple, definitive answer. Simply put you're asking me if your world exists, but I'll go further and go as far as to say demanding to me that your fanon world exist. So far this comes off as across to me saying: "Tell me my world exist, and I'll be quiet. If you don't, I'll give you a run around again and won't stop til you say it does."

The idea of implementing an AvP Multiverse doesn't really interfere with fanon worlds or personal canon. However it doesn't require the numerous fan retcons to make sense of things. It simply organizes them with respects to where creators had in mind where their films stand.

I've mentioned multiple times that it doesn't interfere with personal canon. So.. I'mma cut you a deal.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 17, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
I didn't ask if it can exist, I asked if it *did* exist. I was very particular with my wording. :)

This is where the deal comes in. Does it exist? I am going to be generous and say.. Yes. In the multiverse, this can happen and perhaps in the minds of a few people, it does exist. I've gotten into debates with one person who say that all the movies are in-continuity with each other and while I said no, he pretty much argued that they all were packaged together (then proceeded to block me on DA for having a different viewpoint). So.. I'm going to be generous and say.. Yes.

But as you said, continuity is pretty ambiguous and cloudy. So here is the deal, for your world to exist in an AvP Multiverse.. I want you to write it down. That's right. Write it down. Give it a universal numerical designation (ala Earth-616, Earth-1610) and write a history of it down. Make your own explanations. Put it down on paper. MSWord. Wherever. The moment you write it down, it exists.

You maybe using official sources, but it's a fanon world which will require lots of retcons. It's history may differ from others in many ways. Just keep that in mind.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Mar 17, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
I can appreciate that, it just largely seems redundant in the face of "personal canon".
Like I said many pages ago, it's more of personal preference - AvP is simply a franchise that I personally prefer to be one timeline/universe (same thing, really). There are some franchises I feel it works fine with (Terminator, Transformers) and some that it doesn't (AvP, Star Wars).

Glad to know you can appreciate that, but I don't think it's redundant.

It's fine that you may not like the idea of a multiverse. After all this is all fiction, and reboots and re-imaginings are simply bound to happen. How long do you think it will take for an Alien or Predator remake or reboot to appear in maybe the next two decades?

You may have a point with Transformers and Terminator, but Star Wars not having a multiverse? Well... Star Wars Infinities may somewhat dispute that but then again, those are considered non-canon.. at least non-canon with the main storyline and mainstream universe of Star Wars. So take Infinities into account, and some alternate storylines.. that maybe an argument that Star Wars potentially may have parallel universes which aren't thoroughly explored as the main SW Galaxy is. And then there is The Star Wars, the published comics based on the unused scripts Lucas wrote, that might be it's own universe.

Some food for thought.

Again, you don't have to subscribe to the idea of a multiverse. Not like it's official anyway.

QuoteAgain, you don't have to subscribe to the idea of a multiverse. Not like it's official anyway.

Maybe not, but you've made a believer out of me.

QuoteSorry for the late response but real life has been kicking my ass and I'm trying to get back up through it..

Dude we're talking about fictional entertainment with anonymous people on the Internet, you don't have to apologize for anything. :P
Seriously, real life happens. You don't owe us shit.

QuoteSo far this comes off as across to me saying: "Tell me my world exist, and I'll be quiet. If you don't, I'll give you a run around again and won't stop til you say it does."

Not gonna lie, that's pretty accurate. ;)

QuoteI want you to write it down. That's right. Write it down. Give it a universal numerical designation (ala Earth-616, Earth-1610) and write a history of it down. Make your own explanations. Put it down on paper. MSWord. Wherever. The moment you write it down, it exists.

You maybe using official sources, but it's a fanon world which will require lots of retcons. It's history may differ from others in many ways. Just keep that in mind.

What if I've already written it down in the form of dozens of posts on this forum? (some even within this thread, to an extent)

Also I'd argue that since "it's all in one timeline" is FOX's official canon stance, that it'd actually be the one world that isn't "fanon". :P