The atmosphere on LV223 isnt breathable for humans or Engineers since their DNA matches ours and they are only mortal after all, according to David.
Thats ANOTHER story goof right there, because Space Hippy Holloway said that the system had a sun like ours and had a planet that could sustain life. Eh?!
So then - the 'reception party' must be in the pyramid/domes, yes?
But wait a minute, the inside of these domes is essentially a gigantic sewer network of tunnels, shafts and helixes that somehow makes breathable air? Furthermore, deep within these tunnels is a room that contains a hideous bioweapon that they are apparently loading into Juggernauts, destined for 'naughty planets' that need the black-goo treatment. But the bioweapon is 'activated' and bursts from its container on contact with a breathable atmosphere - like the scene at the waterfall. This is surely the dumbest aspect of this story - why would they store such volatile containers within an atmosphere generator?!
So...why exactly did multiple ancient astronauts bother to meticulously describe a star configuration in the sky to many different primitive civilizations so that they could draw it into artefacts or cave walls? Heck, the primitive folks couldnt even see it in the night sky!
In screenwriting, it's called "inciting incident".
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
But the engineers were all wearing 'Jockey Suits' with breathing apparatus during the hologram sequence when the ampule room door was open?
Yea they were, but then who came in and started blowing breathable air into the complex after everyone was dead?
180924609 I feel your dissapointment and frustration but really its time to let go, its a shit movie that looks nice, there are no answers to your many questions, those who like the movie in spite of all the points you have posited are more willing to suspend disbelief than you are, than I am. Ridley scott is a self declared Fox News Corporation Tool now with an impressive resume (in terms of dollars) and an eye for detail. This doesn't mean you have to like his movies and everyone is entitled to their own subjective experience for better or worse when it comes to art. Needless to say I don't think Prometheus will be inspiring James Cameron to write a sequel, this isn't a turning point in cinematic history, and frankly Star Wars (OT) isn't as good as everyone thinks it is/thought it was. Hype and hope surrounding the first one may have just set you up to be let down but its just a movie, a great work of art maybe, but at the end of the day its just another thing you can buy at a store and life is about more than that, or less than that, depending on how you wanna look at it.
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 09:18:26 PM
The atmosphere on LV223 isnt breathable for humans or Engineers since their DNA matches ours and they are only mortal after all, according to David.
Thats ANOTHER story goof right there, because Space Hippy Holloway said that the system had a sun like ours and had a planet that could sustain life. Eh?!
So? There's life on earth that doesn't require the same atmospheric conditions to live as us.
You're letting your dislike of the movie hinder yourself from thinking.
Quote
So then - the 'reception party' must be in the pyramid/domes, yes?
But wait a minute, the inside of these domes is essentially a gigantic sewer network of tunnels, shafts and helixes that somehow makes breathable air?
I don't see what the issue is here...there's tech in the structure that is creating a breathable atmosphere.
Oh my god, I only see tunnels and ladders in submarines in The Hunt for Red October...how silly. Somehow these ladders are making breathable air! Sweet Jesus, screenwritiers, get your acts together!
QuoteFurthermore, deep within these tunnels is a room that contains a hideous bioweapon that they are apparently loading into Juggernauts, destined for 'naughty planets' that need the black-goo treatment. But the bioweapon is 'activated' and bursts from its container on contact with a breathable atmosphere - like the scene at the waterfall.
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
And it's clearly NOT bursting forth in contact with a breathable atmosphere,
because the entire place has a breathable atmosphere, including the room where thousands of them have been stored, just outside the hologram room. And yet none of those "burst forth".
QuoteThis is surely the dumbest aspect of this story - why would they store such volatile containers within an atmosphere generator?!
Because it's obviously activated by something else, besides the air, or they would have leaked millenia ago. Human presence, perhaps, which would be suitable seeing as they were purposed for human destruction. There was obviously some sort of connection with the facility, because the murals began to move around before activation. Thus explaining the lack of bursting forth when David brings the single vial to the ship.
QuoteSo...why exactly did multiple ancient astronauts bother to meticulously describe a star configuration in the sky to many different primitive civilizations so that they could draw it into artefacts or cave walls? Heck, the primitive folks couldnt even see it in the night sky!
I don't know.
Maybe a 'you were made here' sort of thing? Or perhaps a sign of the coming apocalypse, like many christian paintings displaying the apocalypse? Or perhaps it was a sign showing the location of the secret of life, and they only stopped being painted after we pissed them off enough for them not to want to show us?
This is one question I don't know the answer to.
Quote from: BLAIN
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
Oh yes it does! The engineer opens 'the sacrificial bowl' to reveal a SEALED ramekin, like the urns, but then the surface starts to erode when exposed to The Planet's air atmosphere, thus exposing the black goo.
Did you not pay attention?
Plus, Shaw plainly states that the murals are reacting to the new atmosphere, which is the same time the goo starts leaking. Theres evidence to support that the stuff does wake up from hitting air, but it doesnt explain that giant gaping hole in logic associated with it.
Quote from: SpaceJesus on Jul 05, 2012, 10:14:32 PM
180924609 I feel your dissapointment and frustration but really its time to let go, its a shit movie that looks nice, there are no answers to your many questions, those who like the movie in spite of all the points you have posited are more willing to suspend disbelief than you are, than I am. Ridley scott is a self declared Fox News Corporation Tool now with an impressive resume (in terms of dollars) and an eye for detail. This doesn't mean you have to like his movies and everyone is entitled to their own subjective experience for better or worse when it comes to art. Needless to say I don't think Prometheus will be inspiring James Cameron to write a sequel, this isn't a turning point in cinematic history, and frankly Star Wars (OT) isn't as good as everyone thinks it is/thought it was. Hype and hope surrounding the first one may have just set you up to be let down but its just a movie, a great work of art maybe, but at the end of the day its just another thing you can buy at a store and life is about more than that, or less than that, depending on how you wanna look at it.
too bad this wonderfully written statement will go in one ear and out the other of most internet people unfortunately.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 05, 2012, 11:17:16 PM
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: BLAIN
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
Oh yes it does! The engineer opens 'the sacrificial bowl' to reveal a SEALED ramekin, like the urns, but then the surface starts to erode when exposed to The Planet's air atmosphere, thus exposing the black goo.
Did you not pay attention?
So? The surface erodes, but nothing 'bursts forth'. The black goo doesn't spill.
And even if I suspend all indicators to the opposite and accept your theory, why, then, didn't the goo burst forth in the Prometheus? Or on the way to the Prometheus? In the Fridge? New atmosphere with humans all around....
It had something to do with the ship itself, I would imagine. That room had something special about it. Otherwise, why didn't the goo spill forth when the crew (Weyland and Co.) went to awaken the Jockey, and passed through the room with thousands of jars of the stuff?
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:56:48 PM
Plus, Shaw plainly states that the murals are reacting to the new atmosphere, which is the same time the goo starts leaking. Theres evidence to support that the stuff does wake up from hitting air, but it doesnt explain that giant gaping hole in logic associated with it.
I believe she said 'I think we've disturbed the atmosphere'. Which explains nothing.
No, im pretty sure it means they disturbed the atmosphere. U think someone ripped a fart and it contaminated the room enough to knock art off the walls?
Quote from: BLAIN
I believe she said 'I think we've disturbed the atmosphere'. Which explains nothing.
Eh...NO. I believe it explains why the tops of the urns start to erode exposing the black-goo, just like the image of the previously sealed ramekin that the sacrificial engineer drank from at the start of the movie. They have both been exposed to an air atmosphere, which is presumably exactly how the Juggernaut bombing raid would deliver its payload.
Or are you seriously suggesting that there is no connection whatsoever between these two moments of exposition?!
I...
How the f**k am I misremembering things so badly? I did this with Ripley in the Alien hive, killing aliens, a year ago too.
f**k f**k f**k f**k f**k f**k f**k.
I apologize.
The ampule room makes no sense. I'll have to watch it and think it through again, see if there's any explanation. But as of now....
f**k.
I apologize.
I'm going to go for a run, and maybe get a CT scan to see if I have brain cancer.
Theory: Judging by all the bioweapons scattered about the place....
the starmap was more of a "if you f**k with us your DOOM will come from this place."
2000 years ago, shit went down and they were getting ready to go and kill us.. but a xeno outbreak prevented them.
(sabotage? Someone released the xeno's on purpose? We'll see in the sequel. If they ever get around to make it. eh!)
Shaw is the one that says that the starmap is an invitation.. she's also the one that raises an eyebrow about the security guy taking flamethrowers on the expedition... the whole "it's an invitation" was just wishful thinking on her part.
The whole voyage is based on many "if's" and leaps of logic.. rightfully mocked by David and Fifield early on in the film.
Well im basing the whole "its the atmosphere" thing, off of the fact she says it and since shes an archeologist (the one time it matters for her character) they have to deal with ruining artifacts and paintings and things due to fresh air getting in to old tombs, here in the real world. Its one of the few things in this movie I actually dont question...
The goo is context sensitive thru the whole movie and doesnt play by any one set of rules, which is just bad but the atmosphere thing I dont question other than why does it work sometimes but not others.
For a while I actually thought that the "mural" was actually an old hive that turned to dust complete with an Alien hiding in it. I know if I sawa Xeno took up residence in a chamber of holy goo that could be contaminated id prolly suicide right there too.
Surely you can see where I'm coming from though? I mean, there just has to be another explanation...the lid disintegrates at the beginning, but there are no humans there to contaminate it. I would assume the beginning had an atmosphere similar to the Jockey terraforming atmosphere, as they were without masks and were breathing fine. The ampules in the head room were in the same atmosphere, but the lids didn't disintegrate. Until a human presence was there...but then the other ampules in the storage room didn't react at all to human presence, and also had intact lids...
AAAAAAAUUUUGGGHHH!
Ehhh, they didn't start acting up until David touched one, right? David didn't touch any of the urns in the Storage room.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Jul 06, 2012, 12:03:56 AM
Theory: Judging by all the bioweapons scattered about the place....
the starmap was more of a "if you f**k with us your DOOM will come from this place."
2000 years ago, shit went down and they were getting ready to go and kill us.. but a xeno outbreak prevented them.
(sabotage? Someone released the xeno's on purpose? We'll see in the sequel. If they ever get around to make it. eh!)
Shaw is the one that says that the starmap is an invitation.. she's also the one that raises an eyebrow about the security guy taking flamethrowers on the expedition... the whole "it's an invitation" was just wishful thinking on her part.
The whole voyage is based on many "if's" and leaps of logic.. rightfully mocked by David and Fifield early on in the film.
Yea and yup. :)
They didn't even know what the liquid on the floor was. If it was water it should have been frozen and the best answer they came up with was alien piss or something.
Could it be possible that the jockies actually breath the air outside vs inside the temple? The air inside could be a side effect of creating the outside atmosphere. If we are to believe that Jockey's came to earth eons ago; the atmosphere was vastly different back then. When the jockey was putting the helmet on he took a deep breath almost as if he was holding his breath in for a while. Could also explain why he didn't chase down shaw and became so violent.
I'm thinking the outbreak forced the jockies to escape to the nearest habitable planet, however it needed it's atmosphere changed first. Meaning no hard feelings but people has got to go. Maybe space Jesus(prometheus) was our salvation. They're not angry at us for doing something bad but someone over there took pity on us.
Quote from: Prime113 on Jul 06, 2012, 12:31:54 AM
Ehhh, they didn't start acting up until David touched one, right? David didn't touch any of the urns in the Storage room.
I think you may be getting at something here, there was thousands apparently of ampules in that room on the way to the last engineer but none of those activated despite the atmosphere probably changing more hen the head room (since its door was sealed shut unlike the head rooms) plus the ampules didn't start going off until david made contact with one so perapse it's not the atmospheric disturbance OR just the sentient presence perhapse it's because of the actual contact that activates them, maybe through a hive like mind between them or some kind of other technology that only reaches a certain radius.
As for what he star map is I assume it was misinterpreted and was originally a warning, much like how in alien when they think it's a distress signal calling them its actually a warning signal :/
Not every life sustaining planets can support humans.
Quote from: samoht on Jul 06, 2012, 01:37:43 AM
Not every life sustaining planets can support humans.
After all those worm things were out on the planets surface, before being picked up and put into the head room.
Where are people getting the idea that the goo activates in a breathable atmosphere?
Dunno lol
Looks like it's always active to me.
The ampule room was hermitically sealed and when it opened after 2000 years well the pression or whatever change in the atmosphere made it leak.
That is all.
But you guys are good to find even more complex explanations.
Discussed once with a famous scifi scriptwriter, he said that fanfictions or theories found on some forums ends up being much better than what the screenwriters come up with the only thing is that most of those fans lack the writing skills to formulate their ideas and concept in proper manners in scripts.
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Or the fact that the ampules were there for 2000 years made them more vulnerable to atmospheric changes. You people see plotholes even when it starts raining outside on a beautiful sunny day
Quote from: Prime113 on Jul 06, 2012, 12:31:54 AM
Ehhh, they didn't start acting up until David touched one, right? David didn't touch any of the urns in the Storage room.
They are like leeches,Felt a presence of a being and it reaches out.
David attenborough shit.
I would mention carbon dioxide and warmblooded mamals but meh.
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 09:18:26 PM
The atmosphere on LV223 isnt breathable for humans or Engineers since their DNA matches ours and they are only mortal after all, according to David.
Thats ANOTHER story goof right there, because Space Hippy Holloway said that the system had a sun like ours and had a planet that could sustain life. Eh?!
So then - the 'reception party' must be in the pyramid/domes, yes?
But wait a minute, the inside of these domes is essentially a gigantic sewer network of tunnels, shafts and helixes that somehow makes breathable air? Furthermore, deep within these tunnels is a room that contains a hideous bioweapon that they are apparently loading into Juggernauts, destined for 'naughty planets' that need the black-goo treatment. But the bioweapon is 'activated' and bursts from its container on contact with a breathable atmosphere - like the scene at the waterfall. This is surely the dumbest aspect of this story - why would they store such volatile containers within an atmosphere generator?!
So...why exactly did multiple ancient astronauts bother to meticulously describe a star configuration in the sky to many different primitive civilizations so that they could draw it into artefacts or cave walls? Heck, the primitive folks couldnt even see it in the night sky!
Point 1 - My assumption is that LV233 had the right conditions to "sustain life" because there was evidence of water/oxygen on a planet that had a similar mass/gravitational pull and temperature to Earth. That of course doesn't mean that they can expect to be sitting by a lake in shorts eating cold chicken... but it also means that they don't expect to fry/freeze on contact or be crushed by the planets gravity.
Point 2 - There are a couple of assumptions here. We can assume from the opening scene with the engineer and the scene in the ampule room that the black goo somehow activates on contact with air or other. Also we know that the ampule room has been sealed for circa 2000 years... Therefore, I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that the conditions of the ampule room and/or the ampules have become unstable.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 05, 2012, 10:45:15 PM
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 09:18:26 PM
The atmosphere on LV223 isnt breathable for humans or Engineers since their DNA matches ours and they are only mortal after all, according to David.
Thats ANOTHER story goof right there, because Space Hippy Holloway said that the system had a sun like ours and had a planet that could sustain life. Eh?!
So? There's life on earth that doesn't require the same atmospheric conditions to live as us.
You're letting your dislike of the movie hinder yourself from thinking.
Quote
So then - the 'reception party' must be in the pyramid/domes, yes?
But wait a minute, the inside of these domes is essentially a gigantic sewer network of tunnels, shafts and helixes that somehow makes breathable air?
I don't see what the issue is here...there's tech in the structure that is creating a breathable atmosphere.
Oh my god, I only see tunnels and ladders in submarines in The Hunt for Red October...how silly. Somehow these ladders are making breathable air! Sweet Jesus, screenwritiers, get your acts together!
QuoteFurthermore, deep within these tunnels is a room that contains a hideous bioweapon that they are apparently loading into Juggernauts, destined for 'naughty planets' that need the black-goo treatment. But the bioweapon is 'activated' and bursts from its container on contact with a breathable atmosphere - like the scene at the waterfall.
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
And it's clearly NOT bursting forth in contact with a breathable atmosphere, because the entire place has a breathable atmosphere, including the room where thousands of them have been stored, just outside the hologram room. And yet none of those "burst forth".
QuoteThis is surely the dumbest aspect of this story - why would they store such volatile containers within an atmosphere generator?!
Because it's obviously activated by something else, besides the air, or they would have leaked millenia ago. Human presence, perhaps, which would be suitable seeing as they were purposed for human destruction. There was obviously some sort of connection with the facility, because the murals began to move around before activation. Thus explaining the lack of bursting forth when David brings the single vial to the ship.
QuoteSo...why exactly did multiple ancient astronauts bother to meticulously describe a star configuration in the sky to many different primitive civilizations so that they could draw it into artefacts or cave walls? Heck, the primitive folks couldnt even see it in the night sky!
I don't know.
Maybe a 'you were made here' sort of thing? Or perhaps a sign of the coming apocalypse, like many christian paintings displaying the apocalypse? Or perhaps it was a sign showing the location of the secret of life, and they only stopped being painted after we pissed them off enough for them not to want to show us?
This is one question I don't know the answer to.
Thank you for making the post I was going to Blain.
Perhaps 2000 - or way more obviously - years ago - the Engineers did not intend for us to visit their death factory. Maybe the Engineers have motives you cannot understand? Since you have such a small imagination perhaps we can agree that using it to understand the deeper concepts of this movie is beyond your capabilities?
LV-223 did have the means to support life. Obviously.
And not sure if you remember...
1 - Shaw "It's an invitation"
2 - Shaw "I was so wrong"
Wow - you can lead a horse to water...
Great OP... OP -- try... using... your brain... and go back to watching The Transformers. Because all that made sense.
Quote from: zuzuki on Jul 06, 2012, 08:09:08 AM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Or the fact that the ampules were there for 2000 years made them more vulnerable to atmospheric changes. You people see plotholes even when it starts raining outside on a beautiful sunny day
Im just pointing out the silly inconsistencies of the film. If we wanna get into the state of the urns being weakened over time, then what about the stacks aboard the ship that never broke after 2000 years and the one David ran off with during the storm?
Which brings me to another inconsistency i JUST thought of in that for Space Jam to get outta the ship after it crashed he should have had to swim through all the broken urns in the room connecting from the control room to the outside, not to mention Shaw would never get in and get Davids head.
This movie is like swiss cheese, its not my fault.
QuotePerhaps 2000 - or way more obviously - years ago - the Engineers did not intend for us to visit their death factory. Maybe the Engineers have motives you cannot understand?
maybe engineers showed us the map , because they didn't think that we will survive for so long and develop a technology to travel there. Maybe that was the reason why they want us to destroy later (some 2000 years ago) because they were afraid of us, of our technological development.
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: zuzuki on Jul 06, 2012, 08:09:08 AM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Or the fact that the ampules were there for 2000 years made them more vulnerable to atmospheric changes. You people see plotholes even when it starts raining outside on a beautiful sunny day
Im just pointing out the silly inconsistencies of the film. If we wanna get into the state of the urns being weakened over time, then what about the stacks aboard the ship that never broke after 2000 years and the one David ran off with during the storm?
Which brings me to another inconsistency i JUST thought of in that for Space Jam to get outta the ship after it crashed he should have had to swim through all the broken urns in the room connecting from the control room to the outside, not to mention Shaw would never get in and get Davids head.
This movie is like swiss cheese, its not my fault.
Better storage.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 06, 2012, 02:34:21 PM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: zuzuki on Jul 06, 2012, 08:09:08 AM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Or the fact that the ampules were there for 2000 years made them more vulnerable to atmospheric changes. You people see plotholes even when it starts raining outside on a beautiful sunny day
Im just pointing out the silly inconsistencies of the film. If we wanna get into the state of the urns being weakened over time, then what about the stacks aboard the ship that never broke after 2000 years and the one David ran off with during the storm?
Which brings me to another inconsistency i JUST thought of in that for Space Jam to get outta the ship after it crashed he should have had to swim through all the broken urns in the room connecting from the control room to the outside, not to mention Shaw would never get in and get Davids head.
This movie is like swiss cheese, its not my fault.
Better storage.
This whole board is like a battle of making things up lol, and you sir are a good sport.
Well, it didn't spill. Ergo, it was stored better.
Would you have liked a line saying "Look at this storage! This ain't no Ikea shelving: this is quality. No spilling with these shelves, no sir!"
Well thats like saying Indiana Jones didnt get killed, ergo: refrigerators are nuke proof. maybe... but Its more reasonable to believe that hed be screwed and the premise wasnt thought out well enough. That happens a lot when I think about this movie.
When you look on it from this perespective, mny movies have plot holes and illogical scenes. try to think on many Chuck Norris action movies.
Well the Alien universe is sort of a respectable and believable place, yea Ressurection sorta hurt it, yea AvP hurt it and most people despise those movies for it and Scott was supposed to bring this integrity and realism back to the franchise that real fans miss.
Should we start conceding all this implausible, impossible and illogical stuff to make Ridley feel better? Its not gonna make the movies better down the road. I like Chuck Norris movies, I like some really horrible nonsensical movies for how rediculous they are, but thats... not Alien to me... Im all about poking at this movie as entertainment tho, just like I would a Chuck Norris movie : )
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 03:22:37 PM
Well the Alien universe is sort of a respectable and believable place, yea Ressurection sorta hurt it, yea AvP hurt it and most people despise those movies for it and Scott was supposed to bring this integrity and realism back to the franchise that real fans miss.
Should we start conceding all this implausible, impossible and illogical stuff to make Ridley feel better? Its not gonna make the movies better down the road. I like Chuck Norris movies, I like some really horrible nonsensical movies for how rediculous they are, but thats... not Alien to me... Im all about poking at this movie as entertainment tho, just like I would a Chuck Norris movie : )
You must speak with respect about Chuck Norris...
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: zuzuki on Jul 06, 2012, 08:09:08 AM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 05, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Id just like to point out that the concept that "breathable air" triggering the goo waking up makes no sense because the door to that urn chamber was open... so it could close on the Engineers head. Nothing should have changed in that room due to atmosphere 2000 years later since it was the same air in the same situation and the same complex.
In screenwriting, its called a "plot hole".
Or the fact that the ampules were there for 2000 years made them more vulnerable to atmospheric changes. You people see plotholes even when it starts raining outside on a beautiful sunny day
Im just pointing out the silly inconsistencies of the film. If we wanna get into the state of the urns being weakened over time, then what about the stacks aboard the ship that never broke after 2000 years and the one David ran off with during the storm?
Which brings me to another inconsistency i JUST thought of in that for Space Jam to get outta the ship after it crashed he should have had to swim through all the broken urns in the room connecting from the control room to the outside, not to mention Shaw would never get in and get Davids head.
This movie is like swiss cheese, its not my fault.
From what I can recall David stored an unaffected ampule in a bag and then re-housed it in some sort of fridge/freezer back on the ship. That's enough for me to conclude that this particular ampule wasn't going to splurt any time soon. As for the state of juggernaut post crash, we don't know that the other ampules weren't smashed to pieces and what the engineer had to do to get out. I don't believe it's a plot gap/logic hole.
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
Well thats like saying Indiana Jones didnt get killed, ergo: refrigerators are nuke proof. maybe... but Its more reasonable to believe that hed be screwed and the premise wasnt thought out well enough. That happens a lot when I think about this movie.
It's not at all like that. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to accept a fridge being nuke proof, let alone him withstanding being thrown a great distance in one with no broken bones, than to accept that the ampules were stored well.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 06, 2012, 03:29:58 PM
From what I can recall David stored an unaffected ampule in a bag and then re-housed it in some sort of fridge/freezer back on the ship. [...]
If I remember well I think he even uses some sort of freezing spray from a can before taking the ampule in his bag.
Quote from: Promethée on Jul 06, 2012, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 06, 2012, 03:29:58 PM
From what I can recall David stored an unaffected ampule in a bag and then re-housed it in some sort of fridge/freezer back on the ship. [...]
If I remember well I think he even uses some sort of freezing spray from a can before taking the ampule in his bag.
wasn't he sterilizing it? Like the head before explosion.
Quote from: xii22loop on Jul 05, 2012, 11:04:19 PM
Quote from: SpaceJesus on Jul 05, 2012, 10:14:32 PM
180924609 I feel your dissapointment and frustration but really its time to let go, its a shit movie that looks nice, there are no answers to your many questions, those who like the movie in spite of all the points you have posited are more willing to suspend disbelief than you are, than I am. Ridley scott is a self declared Fox News Corporation Tool now with an impressive resume (in terms of dollars) and an eye for detail. This doesn't mean you have to like his movies and everyone is entitled to their own subjective experience for better or worse when it comes to art. Needless to say I don't think Prometheus will be inspiring James Cameron to write a sequel, this isn't a turning point in cinematic history, and frankly Star Wars (OT) isn't as good as everyone thinks it is/thought it was. Hype and hope surrounding the first one may have just set you up to be let down but its just a movie, a great work of art maybe, but at the end of the day its just another thing you can buy at a store and life is about more than that, or less than that, depending on how you wanna look at it.
too bad this wonderfully written statement will go in one ear and out the other of most internet people unfortunately.
Well comments like that bring hope not everyone on "teh internetz" is complete idiot, I couldn't express it better ;]
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 06, 2012, 03:38:38 PM
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
Well thats like saying Indiana Jones didnt get killed, ergo: refrigerators are nuke proof. maybe... but Its more reasonable to believe that hed be screwed and the premise wasnt thought out well enough. That happens a lot when I think about this movie.
It's not at all like that. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to accept a fridge being nuke proof, let alone him withstanding being thrown a great distance in one with no broken bones, than to accept that the ampules were stored well.
David lifted the top off of one no problem, like one handed bam, off.
In contrast to a ship that got smashed into by another ship which was basically going into warp speed, hit it hard enough to knock it out of the sky, flip it on its ass and burn the pilot under his gear wasnt enough to knock them off their shelves or break them open? That room must be a giant nuke proof fridge...
Come on.
A jar standing on its own in a room, versus one secured in a storage area. It's secured well, in place for long journeys?
The movie showed no leakage. Ergo, It was obviously secured in such a manner as to prevent spills. This is far less far fetched than super fridge and his sidekick, Terminator Jones.
EDIT: Unless, of course, there was another entrance, in which case there could have been a leak, but the room was sealed and therefore the problem was moot. Either way, it didn't play a factor.
I cant say for sure that it wasnt secured well, there could be special gravity on there which would explain why davids head never moved and just the fact that its on an alien ship as opposed to a fridge lends it a tad bit of credibility.
It would explain how the Derelict could crash land and not throw eggs all over the place too, so it could be possible, just real convinient.
If thats the case though, and they have a way to keep dangerous cargo secure on ships... why wouldnt they do the same for the urns in the mound? Atleast screw the caps on better if not put them in the same type of room?
Or they could just be held in place really tightly, and the lid secured so as not to come off.
In terms of David's head, I believe it did roll off. If you recall, it was atop the raised portion where the cryotube and pilot seat were, but when Shaw gets him, his body and head are on a lower part against a wall.
Well there you go lol, its enough to fling David, but not enough to knock the caps off. Why wouldnt they do the same to the urns in the mound? Im starting to wonder if the Engineers are just thieves and the mound belongs to someone else, it would explain so much of this.
I don't think the stuff in the head room was actually on the ship. Wasn't it part of the tit-pyramid, and the ship was underground a little ways away from it?
Quote from: Aceburster on Jul 06, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
Well there you go lol, its enough to fling David, but not enough to knock the caps off. Why wouldnt they do the same to the urns in the mound? Im starting to wonder if the Engineers are just thieves and the mound belongs to someone else, it would explain so much of this.
This idea was here posted in another thread some time ago. That engineers are just stealing technology and copying everything they steal. So the Jockey in Alien is the real one and engineers are just recreating it's appearance with suits. They copyied it.
That peice of concept art shows the ship attached by a long cooridor to the mound. I dunno if that holds up in the movie but from what i remember it does since the jugernaut comes up between the prometheus and the mound and the head room was in the mound.
Thats the thing about this movie, we dont know if the stuff is the same, we dont know if the goo is one type, we dont know if its holy and weapons at the same time, we dont know if its actually weapons, we dont know where it came from, we dont know anything. If you put context on one peice of it, then other stuff stops making sense.
I mean the simplest explanation is that the Engineers went to the mound for the same reason we did and some other aliens (giant ufo in the beginning) used them for sacrifices and experiments which gave them a trail to a death trap they couldnt figure out.
They walked in, got blindsided by goo trying to make off with the goods, most of them died, they left the door open which built up atmosphere on this crap complex, The last one ended up in his little lifeboat waiting for help, when help came it was a buncha stupid humans asking the same questions they did, he realized he was not only boned but he couldnt let this stuff get loose the same way Janek said.
It totally explains the Engineers and since two forms of human would have went looking for gods power and got screwed over the title "Prometheus" actually makes sense since the problem keeps happening.
Theres nothing in the movie that says the Engineers actually made us, they might have been forced to sacrifice themselves for another race which made us.
The only thing it doesnt explain is wtf the goo is and what connection it has to Xenos. But either way theres no scene or dialog or clincher that says that, or anything else conclusively happened. The most popular theories come from AvP haters who are using the AvP lore to explain the Engineers, thats just as dumb as anything else lol
The more we break it apart, the more logical explanations we will find.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 06, 2012, 04:23:58 PM
Or they could just be held in place really tightly, and the lid secured so as not to come off.
In terms of David's head, I believe it did roll off. If you recall, it was atop the raised portion where the cryotube and pilot seat were, but when Shaw gets him, his body and head are on a lower part against a wall.
Have we now got to the point where we need to explain that David was in a different position post crash? A new low... ;)
Still no good answer to the OP? Bizarre!
This is one of the most important aspects of the movie - heck its the movie starting point!
And yet NOBODY can give a reasonable answer as to why the starmap was described by The Engineers to multiple distinct primitive cultures in perfect detail?
Are you seeing this, Highland?
There is no answer to that question in the film.
But I believe that is one of the things Shaw is going to find out when she leaves LV-223 for the home-world.
I, personally, think they viewed us favourably, and were showing us the location of where the secret of life (black goo) is. Sort of like how the religious write down messages from 'God', pictorially or with words. Up until we pissed them off, of course (for whatever reason. I will NOT accept space Jesus, and if that ends up being the case, my opinion of the films will change so quickly I might get vertigo).
Maybe they explained to us their origins without thinking one day we'd get there.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jul 07, 2012, 10:27:19 PM
Maybe they explained to us their origins without thinking one day we'd get there.
You sat through and enjoyed a 2 hour pop video to say that?
The Engineers described in PERFECT detail to many different ancient primitive civilisations that drew pictures on cave walls:
A star map, when they didnt even have a clue what a STAR even is. The diagram would have to be described perfectly, or the Von Daniken hippies would not have been able to locate the system.
Are the engineers just gloating then?
EngineerNone:
"We've got a base at LV223, and bio-weapons that can kick your ass, na, na, na-na, naaaa."
Tumak:
"UGH*"
*translation:
"Yeah, but you got f**ked by your own bio-weapon, asswipe!"
David's head... how come it works as it have been completely severed from the body?
Ash needs to be reconnected and he's probably a newer model no?
Bah! Forget it!
Why has my Super Nintendo lasted for 15 years without breaking once, even after being stepped on and thrown about, yet my xbox 360 breaks once every year from being too hot?
The star map WAS an invitation.
Quote from: NGR01 on Jul 07, 2012, 11:31:28 PM
David's head... how come it works as it have been completely severed from the body?
Ash needs to be reconnected and he's probably a newer model no?
Bah! Forget it!
Surely it depends on where the processor is etc. etc? Also - from recollection Ash was still running about with his head hanging off. It was the electric shock from the cattle prod that finished him off. I remember Bishop not functioning too badly after being ripped in half (although his training for the London marathon had to be put on hold).
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 07, 2012, 09:53:02 PM
And yet NOBODY can give a reasonable answer as to why the starmap was described by The Engineers to multiple distinct primitive cultures in perfect detail?
The engineers were providing a way for their 'children' to find a way back to the closest established engineer outpost. The fact that humans did something circa 2000 years ago to piss their creators off meant that the invite became moot (as humans were to be wiped out long before they'd advanced to the point where they could interpret the 'invitation').
If you have to fill in the dots in order to understand a story, then it is called a "plot hole"
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 08, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
If you have to fill in the dots in order to understand a story, then it is called a "plot hole"
And perhaps those who need everything filled in "to understand a story" are just f**king morons???
I just got laid! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o#ws)
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 08, 2012, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 08, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
If you have to fill in the dots in order to understand a story, then it is called a "plot hole"
And perhaps those who need everything filled in "to understand a story" are just f**king morons???
You sound emotional for someone who seems to have managed to understand the entire movie without seeing any plot hole unlike some of us.
For me personally, I don't bother to fill in missing dots anymore. I even don't consider those as plot holes anymore as plot holes may eventually be fixed by editing or director cut.
I can't deny that this movie has an awesome CGI and special effects. It also has the same director which made two now classic scifi movies (Alien/Blade Runner) and potentially good actors/actresses. But it has one of the worst story telling. Crew who doesn't know each other until after being woken up from their cryosleep two years into their mission? A scientist who smokes joint in his space suit? We are talking about a trillion dollar mission here; supposedly the most important mission in the history of humanity.
This is just a bad story telling which any editing won't be able to fix.
1) It's privately funded, and rushed because Weyland's almost dead.
2) Wow, a guy modified his suit. Call the movie police, we're dealing with insane levels of improbability here!
3) The most important mission privately funded by a man wanting not to make any further significant contributions to science, but who wants to grant a dying wish. A man who finds that all his vast wealth leaves him unfulfilled, and who is willing to sacrifice others to meet his maker and prolong his life. So while others may think that the mission is the most important in human history, it was all organized, financed and orchestrated behind the scenes by a man with a different mindset.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 08, 2012, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 08, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
If you have to fill in the dots in order to understand a story, then it is called a "plot hole"
And perhaps those who need everything filled in "to understand a story" are just f**king morons???
You sound emotional for someone who seems to have managed to understand the entire movie without seeing any plot hole unlike some of us.
For me personally, I don't bother to fill in missing dots anymore. I even don't consider those as plot holes anymore as plot holes may eventually be fixed by editing or director cut.
I can't deny that this movie has an awesome CGI and special effects. It also has the same director which made two now classic scifi movies (Alien/Blade Runner) and potentially good actors/actresses. But it has one of the worst story telling. Crew who doesn't know each other until after being woken up from their cryosleep two years into their mission? A scientist who smokes joint in his space suit? We are talking about a trillion dollar mission here; supposedly the most important mission in the history of humanity.
This is just a bad story telling which any editing won't be able to fix.
Not emotional at all... quite chilled actually... I just think that anyone who truly doesn't get the story... and sees everything as a plot hole unless explained in detail, is better off probably just putting
Prometheus to the side and sticking with somethng like
Thor or
Avengers Assemble - where people flying in the clouds, alien spaceships and hammers with the mass of a planet are just accepted as that part of that particular universe without question.
That's not to excuse
Prometheus where there are some logic gaps or where clearly an exorcised scene, or piece of dialogue, has left some questions... but that can be applied to virtually every movie ever made (apart from the great movies where it doesn't matter as much)... and for me, no matter how much fun it is discussing it, things must be set in context and put into perspective. Arguing (as I've seen in the last 24hrs) that it's a plot hole/logic gap that Michael can function with his head removed from his body, or that his head hasn't moved position since the crash.... seems to me, just kind of pedantic and/or obtuse.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
1) It's privately funded, and rushed because Weyland's almost dead.
2) Wow, a guy modified his suit. Call the movie police, we're dealing with insane levels of improbability here!
3) The most important mission privately funded by a man wanting not to make any further significant contributions to science, but who wants to grant a dying wish. A man who finds that all his vast wealth leaves him unfulfilled, and who is willing to sacrifice others to meet his maker and prolong his life. So while others may think that the mission is the most important in human history, it was all organized, financed and orchestrated behind the scenes by a man with a different mindset.
Did Scott/Lindelof bother to develop the movie to explain such poor and rushed recruitment decision? Or did you just make it up based on your imagination? Is a joint smoking down the road bloke the best Weyland can afford with his money?
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 09:18:26 PM
the system had a sun like ours and had a planet that could sustain life. Eh?!
Only because humans cannot breathe the air, doesn't mean the planet cannot sustain life.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 12:39:04 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
1) It's privately funded, and rushed because Weyland's almost dead.
2) Wow, a guy modified his suit. Call the movie police, we're dealing with insane levels of improbability here!
3) The most important mission privately funded by a man wanting not to make any further significant contributions to science, but who wants to grant a dying wish. A man who finds that all his vast wealth leaves him unfulfilled, and who is willing to sacrifice others to meet his maker and prolong his life. So while others may think that the mission is the most important in human history, it was all organized, financed and orchestrated behind the scenes by a man with a different mindset.
Did Scott/Lindelof bother to develop the movie to explain such poor and rushed recruitment decision? Or did you just make it up based on your imagination? Is a joint smoking down the road bloke the best Weyland can afford with his money?
Same can be applied to the colonial marines in Aliens - they were supposed to be an elite, but they were a bunch of idiots who had zero respect for the chain of command. Also, why was the man in charge (Gorman) a complete moron?
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 12:39:04 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
1) It's privately funded, and rushed because Weyland's almost dead.
2) Wow, a guy modified his suit. Call the movie police, we're dealing with insane levels of improbability here!
3) The most important mission privately funded by a man wanting not to make any further significant contributions to science, but who wants to grant a dying wish. A man who finds that all his vast wealth leaves him unfulfilled, and who is willing to sacrifice others to meet his maker and prolong his life. So while others may think that the mission is the most important in human history, it was all organized, financed and orchestrated behind the scenes by a man with a different mindset.
Did Scott/Lindelof bother to develop the movie to explain such poor and rushed recruitment decision? Or did you just make it up based on your imagination? Is a joint smoking down the road bloke the best Weyland can afford with his money?
Weyland's secret intentions and disregard for their lives are explanation enough if you put two and two together. He used them as his puppets, essentially, to do what he (in his aged state) could not. To explore and to find. Why was it rushed? He was almost dead. We know that from the film. As for the recruitment being poor, Janek and the pilots aren't poor. Neither is Ford. Shaw and Holloway are the reason the expedition even occurred. The...mercenaries did their jobs. The only two choices that could be construed as poor are Milburn and Fifield, and that's only because they died doing something we as the audience knows they shouldn't be doing.
And as for the joint smoking guy, well, smoking marijuana recreationaly hasn't stopped my friends from getting well paying jobs.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMSame can be applied to the colonial marines in Aliens - they were supposed to be an elite, but they were a bunch of idiots who had zero respect for the chain of command.
Have you seen the disappointment of the crew when they learned that Gorman had only done 2 combat jumps including that one and also when Gorman told them not to use their weapons when they got into the area where the colonists were located? That explains why the crew who were more experienced than Gorman subsequently lost their respect for him. You hate Gorman for it and build sympathy for the crew. The story tallies.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMAlso, why was the man in charge (Gorman) a complete moron?
It was Burke who introduced Gorman to Ripley. You can feel that the choice of inexperienced commander was deliberately done by by Burke who has his own agendas, or even the company, to ensure that they don't wipe the entire Aliens out and at least get one back to the base. You can see from the movie about Burke's hidden agenda. It is all in the script and the big screen.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 12:57:36 PMWeyland's secret intentions and disregard for their lives are explanation enough if you put two and two together. He used them as his puppets, essentially, to do what he (in his aged state) could not. To explore and to find.
Is this part of the cut scenes?
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 12:57:36 PMWhy was it rushed? He was almost dead. We know that from the film.
We know he had only days to live but there is nothing explaining about rushing the recruitment or the mission. FYI, we also know that he can live for years as long as he stays in cryosleep.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 12:57:36 PMAnd as for the joint smoking guy, well, smoking marijuana recreationaly hasn't stopped my friends from getting well paying jobs.
I hope they are not highly skilled scientists smoking it during their work.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMSame can be applied to the colonial marines in Aliens - they were supposed to be an elite, but they were a bunch of idiots who had zero respect for the chain of command.
Have you seen the disappointment of the crew when they learned that Gorman had only done 2 combat jumps including that one and also when Gorman told them not to use their weapons when they got into the area where the colonists were located? That explains why the crew who were more experienced than Gorman subsequently lost their respect for him. You hate Gorman for it and build sympathy for the crew. The story tallies.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMAlso, why was the man in charge (Gorman) a complete moron?
It was Burke who introduced Gorman to Ripley. You can feel that the choice of inexperienced commander was deliberately done by by Burke who has his own agendas, or even the company, to ensure that they don't wipe the entire Aliens out and at least get one back to the base. You can see from the movie about Burke's hidden agenda. It is all in the script and the big screen.
But that's you simply filling in gaps in
Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
Ya. Aliens has some nasty holes.
The whole "they are inside the room" thing still bugs me when I watch it. Like the whole complex is covered by chip board roofing.....?! :D
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 02:57:34 PMBut that's you simply filling in gaps in Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
Burke's motive? For money. Burke said it in the movie.
And also, Burke did not believe Ripley's story at first. He secretly sent some terraformers to the crash site to check it. And when they lost contact with terraformers, Burke was convinced that Ripley was right. He was the only one who knew about his secret order. He also insisted in joining the mission to ensure that he got a specimen back. It is all in the movie.
Cameron and the script writers wanted the audience to hate Burke. And I hated Burke for that.
Contrast that with the scene when the last Engineer woke up and went on killing spree. Why is that? What's the reason? Nothing was explained in the movie.
Is the audience supposed to speculate? And I hated Scott/Lindelof for that.
Quote from: Highland on Jul 09, 2012, 03:19:50 PM
Ya. Aliens has some nasty holes.
The whole "they are inside the room" thing still bugs me when I watch it. Like the whole complex is covered by chip board roofing.....?! :D
Maybe you don't like the way the roofing was done in a supposedly civil building in a 1986 movie. But you cannot classify this a plot hole.
QuoteIs this part of the cut scenes?
No...Weyland hired them to find out if our makers were on the planet. So he could meet them and prolong his life. He used them for the grunt work.
QuoteWe know he had only days to live but there is nothing explaining about rushing the recruitment or the mission. FYI, we also know that he can live for years as long as he stays in cryosleep.
Well, to be fair he was on deaths bed when he made the hologram two years before they arrived, and at that point said he was probably going to be dead before they got there. This, it would seem, was part of the plan to conceal his true intentions (make them think he's dead). And staying in cryosleep indefinitely is hardly an existence anyone would want. Especially given how tolling waking up was shown to be, amplified further by his old age.
QuoteI hope they are not highly skilled scientists smoking it during their work
Fifield and Milburn weren't working, they were stranded and waiting for rescue, and stressed out. No work was being done.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 03:25:31 PM
Maybe you don't like the way the roofing was done in a supposedly civil building in a 1986 movie. But you cannot classify this a plot hole.
Roofing does not extend out into corridors and over vast area's no matter what it's made from. Had they show the Aliens using the ducting as the means of entering it would have been a bit more believable (and really why didn't they?). As it was they are just crawling across the entire complex via roofing that somehow expands across the entire floor.
Think about it. Why would you have air locked steel doors with an overhead partition that extends out into the hallway? (and apparently further than that).
Perhaps it's not a plot hole but it's definitely as dumb as anything Prom spits out. There are all kinds of logic gaps throughout the Alien series. Prometheus is not a special case. Like Darth points out it's all down to the viewer and how they handle it.
They also come up through the floor at one point if I remember.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 03:25:31 PM
Burke's motive? For money. Burke said it in the movie.
And also, Burke did not believe Ripley's story at first. He secretly sent some terraformers to the crash site to check it. And when they lost contact with terraformers, Burke was convinced that Ripley was right. He was the only one who knew about his secret order. He also insisted in joining the mission to ensure that he got a specimen back. It is all in the movie.
Cameron and the script writers wanted the audience to hate Burke. And I hated Burke for that.
Contrast that with the scene when the last Engineer woke up and went on killing spree. Why is that? What's the reason? Nothing was explained in the movie.
Is the audience supposed to speculate? And I hated Scott/Lindelof for that.
Quote from: Highland on Jul 09, 2012, 03:19:50 PM
Ya. Aliens has some nasty holes.
The whole "they are inside the room" thing still bugs me when I watch it. Like the whole complex is covered by chip board roofing.....?! :D
Maybe you don't like the way the roofing was done in a supposedly civil building in a 1986 movie. But you cannot classify this a plot hole.
But this is an organisation (Weyland) that have known about the aliens, and the alien civilisation, since the first movie ("Special Order 937" remember???). So why are they pretending they don't know??? Also - your point about Burke doesn't wash. Having a motive fuelled by greed is one thing... having absolutely no plan, or even worse, a plan that will result in your certain death is incredulous. Tell me - what was Burke actually going to do? Was his plan always to kill the rest of the crew and sneak an "acid for blood" alien on board (even before he was 'found out'? Believing that Burke arranged for the team to be purposely inept seems like a very large leap... and even if you were correct (and it would take Cameron announcing that plot point - as it's not in the movie), I think that it only serves to highlight the flawed logic even more.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
But this is an organisation (Weyland) that have known about the aliens, and the alien civilisation, since the first movie ("Special Order 937" remember???). So why are they pretending they don't know??? Also - your point about Burke doesn't wash. Having a motive fuelled by greed is one thing... having absolutely no plan, or even worse, a plan that will result in your certain death is incredulous. Tell me - what was Burke actually going to do? Was his plan always to kill the rest of the crew and sneak an "acid for blood" alien on board (even before he was 'found out'? Believing that Burke arranged for the team to be purposely inept seems like a very large leap... and even if you were correct (and it would take Cameron announcing that plot point - as it's not in the movie), I think that it only serves to highlight the flawed logic even more.
I think you should watch the two films again.
- In Alien, Nostromo was a mining expedition. On their way back home to Earth, they had to land in LV 426 after detecting a distress signal. They were not sent intentionally to collect an alien being. The existence of the directive doesn't mean that the company was aware of a Xeno. It was a general directive for Ash to bring back any alien form with the crew being expendable. Any alien form, not necessarily a Xeno
- In Aliens, Burke's plan was to get a facehugger to impregnate one of the crew and sneak him/her back to Earth. He tried to do it to Ripley/Newt
Anyway, I think we are straying from the original topic.
Quote from: Highland on Jul 09, 2012, 03:43:26 PMRoofing does not extend out into corridors and over vast area's no matter what it's made from. Had they show the Aliens using the ducting as the means of entering it would have been a bit more believable (and really why didn't they?). As it was they are just crawling across the entire complex via roofing that somehow expands across the entire floor.
Think about it. Why would you have air locked steel doors with an overhead partition that extends out into the hallway? (and apparently further than that).
Perhaps it's not a plot hole but it's definitely as dumb as anything Prom spits out. There are all kinds of logic gaps throughout the Alien series. Prometheus is not a special case. Like Darth points out it's all down to the viewer and how they handle it.
They also come up through the floor at one point if I remember.
Honestly I wouldn't be bothered with that kind of detail in any of the movies I watch. I was not bothered with how Prometheus crew could breath in the temple while there was a big hole in the temple. I can live without small detail.
I am more interested in finding a story which has a continuity from one scene to another. Engineers showing a star map of LV-223 at the beginning of the movie which turns out to be a weapon storage facility in the end does not present a continuity in the story unless you add your own wild speculation to it. And I didn't watch the movie to have my own speculation.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 03:40:32 PM
QuoteIs this part of the cut scenes?
No...Weyland hired them to find out if our makers were on the planet. So he could meet them and prolong his life. He used them for the grunt work.
QuoteWe know he had only days to live but there is nothing explaining about rushing the recruitment or the mission. FYI, we also know that he can live for years as long as he stays in cryosleep.
Well, to be fair he was on deaths bed when he made the hologram two years before they arrived, and at that point said he was probably going to be dead before they got there. This, it would seem, was part of the plan to conceal his true intentions (make them think he's dead). And staying in cryosleep indefinitely is hardly an existence anyone would want. Especially given how tolling waking up was shown to be, amplified further by his old age.
So there is nothing in the movie saying that Weyland had to rush the recruitment process and prefer to have a joint smoking mohican bloke sooner than having to wait longer for a highly skilled scientist.
How many individuals do you know that would actually tell a prospective employer that they smoke weed?
And I know nothing of Fifield's academic work history. He's clearly inventive (I.E the pups). The fact that he is eccentric is practically commonplace amongst scientists. I had a biochemistry teacher who used to dress in short shorts with socks and sandals, and who used to carry a dead squirrel with him. He's one of the most cited biochemists.
As for the rushing thing, the time lapse in between Shaw and Holloway discovering the pictogram and the arrival time, plus the time lapse necessary for publishing a thesis (which, trust me, isn't quick) indicate that it would have to have been rushed. Plus the fact that they don't know each other and haven't trained together is another indicator. And his own personal preparations, getting a ship ready, putting the word out for the crew of 17, getting the equipment ready...it all reeks of a rush job.
Plus, you know, Weyland's almost dead, so there's that reason to rush.
Is there actually a timeline somewhere?
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 05:52:07 PM
How many individuals do you know that would actually tell a prospective employer that they smoke weed?
And I know nothing of Fifield's academic work history. He's clearly inventive (I.E the pups). The fact that he is eccentric is practically commonplace amongst scientists. I had a biochemistry teacher who used to dress in short shorts with socks and sandals, and who used to carry a dead squirrel with him. He's one of the most cited biochemists.
As for the rushing thing, the time lapse in between Shaw and Holloway discovering the pictogram and the arrival time, plus the time lapse necessary for publishing a thesis (which, trust me, isn't quick) indicate that it would have to have been rushed. Plus the fact that they don't know each other and haven't trained together is another indicator. And his own personal preparations, getting a ship ready, putting the word out for the crew of 17, getting the equipment ready...it all reeks of a rush job.
Plus, you know, Weyland's almost dead, so there's that reason to rush.
You can speculate all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is your own speculation which makes the story works ... for you. The movie didn't tell us anything about this.
Fair enough.
I'm just not bothered by a lack of them explicitly stating minor stuff. The time thing, for instance. We're told stuff like: Weyland being almost dead, Thesis publication, time in transit, lack of familiarity with other crew members. What we're told all screams rush job. I'm fine with the fact you don't agree, but it makes sense.
Quote from: Promethée on Jul 09, 2012, 06:35:45 PM
Is there actually a timeline somewhere?
And another question, timeline made from canon sources including AVP, and AVP:R ?
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
I think you should watch the two films again.
- In Alien, Nostromo was a mining expedition. On their way back home to Earth, they had to land in LV 426 after detecting a distress signal. They were not sent intentionally to collect an alien being. The existence of the directive doesn't mean that the company was aware of a Xeno. It was a general directive for Ash to bring back any alien form with the crew being expendable. Any alien form, not necessarily a Xeno
- In Aliens, Burke's plan was to get a facehugger to impregnate one of the crew and sneak him/her back to Earth. He tried to do it to Ripley/Newt
Anyway, I think we are straying from the original topic.
Are you serious??? I think it's you who needs to "watch the 2 films again". The company feckin sneaked an android onto the Nostromo or are you stating that Ash just happened to be on the ship by coincidence??? Interested in your take on that one. Secondly... Are you stating that was Burke's plan from the get go? How did he plan to make that a reality??? Seemed to me that it was an impromptu plan once he'd been rumbled by Ripley (which seemed very desperate to me as he doesn't know the incubation time of the embryo or whether the embryo would hatch even in cryo). What was his original plan before getting there? So many holes...
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 06:48:15 PM
You can speculate all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is your own speculation which makes the story works ... for you. The movie didn't tell us anything about this.
As pointed out... you are doing the same thing with both
Alien and
Aliens... funny that. ;-)
Which part of these was not in the movies?
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
- In Alien, Nostromo was a mining expedition. On their way back home to Earth, they had to land in LV 426 after detecting a distress signal. They were not sent intentionally to collect an alien being. The existence of the directive doesn't mean that the company was aware of a Xeno. It was a general directive for Ash to bring back any alien form with the crew being expendable. Any alien form, not necessarily a Xeno
- In Aliens, Burke's plan was to get a facehugger to impregnate one of the crew and sneak him/her back to Earth. He tried to do it to Ripley/Newt
So assuming the http://www.weylandindustries.com/timeline (http://www.weylandindustries.com/timeline) and the viral videos are canon,
Accordind to it and according to the movie data we get this :
.2073 Weyland begins the Prometheus production after locating a new destination.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.hostingpics.net%2Fpics%2F37799690P1.jpg&hash=20704ba6d4a47c111fad5c79235abfec7e62bca4) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=37799690P1.jpg)
.2079 E.Shaw is contacting Weyland
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.hostingpics.net%2Fpics%2F92429096P2.jpg&hash=b0eddc980c02c177e493d04aef52442a4e6a286b) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=92429096P2.jpg)
.2089 Cave paintings discovery
Nice 10 years gap there.
.2091 Prometheus departure
.2093 Arrival at Lv-223
So Shaw first contacted Weyland in 2079, we don't know what happened then.
(We can assume he was interested an funded Shaw's team to do more research while the Prometheus was still being built.? or he needed more proof ?)
If he was already interested that's a 10+ years to choose a team.
Worst case scenario, that last cave painting they found finally convinces Weyland in 2089 and gives him 1 year more or less
since the Prometheus left earth in 2091.
What do you guys think ? correct me if I made a mistake.
That is interesting. I've got to check that timeline out. Is Prometheus production the building of the ship?
As for Shaw contacting Weyland, I would imagine that was when they had found a few of the maps.
Nice research ..
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 08:14:41 PM
That is interesting. I've got to check that timeline out. Is Prometheus production the building of the ship?
[...]
I'm just speculating about production, they call it "a long time pet project" so I suppose they've been working on it in the design/concept department for some time.
And then they found a new classified destination that justifies a new round of investments, then I assume they started the production process to build the spaceshift in order to go to that place.
(they must have discovered something great that makes it worth spending all that money, and at that time it wasn't engineers..I'm curious about what it was.)
Also from a different page of the same site http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/ (http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/)
QuoteThe mission of Project Prometheus is to seek out the actual origin of mankind, wherever it may be. Weyland Industries believes this voyage will yield extraordinary dividends for its investors; financially and spiritually. This mission is incredible in scope: not only do we endeavor to bring vital knowledge back to investors, but it will mark the furthest a human has ever ventured into our universe. Because of the high level of risk involved, Weyland has searched far and wide to find the most skilled, dedicated and exceptional professionals to contribute their expertise to the mission. These are the people who will build a better world for us all.
And yet ....... :)
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 08:06:47 PM
Which part of these was not in the movies?
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
- In Alien, Nostromo was a mining expedition. On their way back home to Earth, they had to land in LV 426 after detecting a distress signal. They were not sent intentionally to collect an alien being. The existence of the directive doesn't mean that the company was aware of a Xeno. It was a general directive for Ash to bring back any alien form with the crew being expendable. Any alien form, not necessarily a Xeno
- In Aliens, Burke's plan was to get a facehugger to impregnate one of the crew and sneak him/her back to Earth. He tried to do it to Ripley/Newt
I'm not sure what your point is now as you didn't really respond to my points. It's not about something being in the movie, or referenced in the movie, it's about its internal logic - I thought that was the original critiscm? Ash being on board, the company knowing about the alien... and sending hapless Marines with a bumbling Burke who doesnt have a plan... other than making it up as he goes defies internal logic... but you/we are happy (it seems) to overlook it. This is where I say things are relative and need to be viewed in context.
My point is I didn't use any speculation like you said I did. I only said what I saw. I disagreed when you said that the company knew all along about Aliens civilisation. It was mentioned nowhere in Alien.
And I didn't need to add internal logic to the movie. Alien was already outstanding as is.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 10:38:32 PM
Also from a different page of the same site http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/ (http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/)
QuoteThe mission of Project Prometheus is to seek out the actual origin of mankind, wherever it may be. Weyland Industries believes this voyage will yield extraordinary dividends for its investors; financially and spiritually. This mission is incredible in scope: not only do we endeavor to bring vital knowledge back to investors, but it will mark the furthest a human has ever ventured into our universe. Because of the high level of risk involved, Weyland has searched far and wide to find the most skilled, dedicated and exceptional professionals to contribute their expertise to the mission. These are the people who will build a better world for us all.
And yet ....... :)
Hmmm. :-\
I guess I was wrong. Ah well.
I don't really think any of them did anything particularly stupid, though. Millburn being the only probable exception, and even then, hindsight is 20/20.
So am I right in thinking that project Prometheus was started
before Shaw and Holloway's discovery? Because it would be interesting that Weyland had had the idea for a while to search for mankind's origins, as if the company already knew it was from somewhere else besides earth. This could be explored in a sequel, and might explain the companies' fascination with and previous knowledge of the Alien in ALIEN. Because Prometheus has shown us the Engineers have certainly been in contact with the aliens before, and if Weyland knew about the Engineers...
As for the crew not knowing each other before the mission...I have no idea. Previous engagements on the parts of the individuals? Interference by Weyland to achieve his own personal goals? Or, as many people think, lazy writing? :-\ I'm not sure anymore. Maybe it was fast tracked by Weyland once Shaw and Holloway's info came in, because he was dying? Maybe it's procedure to take off and brief before arriving at the planet (like the marines in ALIENS)?
QuoteStarmap: NOT an invitation - so what is it?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.centresource.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Fackbar.gif&hash=7b6f85cee1211206ae02b009e7c19817d672aa56)
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMSame can be applied to the colonial marines in Aliens - they were supposed to be an elite, but they were a bunch of idiots who had zero respect for the chain of command.
Have you seen the disappointment of the crew when they learned that Gorman had only done 2 combat jumps including that one and also when Gorman told them not to use their weapons when they got into the area where the colonists were located? That explains why the crew who were more experienced than Gorman subsequently lost their respect for him. You hate Gorman for it and build sympathy for the crew. The story tallies.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 09, 2012, 12:41:13 PMAlso, why was the man in charge (Gorman) a complete moron?
It was Burke who introduced Gorman to Ripley. You can feel that the choice of inexperienced commander was deliberately done by by Burke who has his own agendas, or even the company, to ensure that they don't wipe the entire Aliens out and at least get one back to the base. You can see from the movie about Burke's hidden agenda. It is all in the script and the big screen.
But that's you simply filling in gaps in Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
sadly -- theses same people who lack the ability to think for themselves will wait 20 years and reminisce about how great prometheus is.
no point in fighting this battle -- you are making too much sense
QuoteBut that's you simply filling in gaps in Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
Erm... that's all addressed in the film during the exchange between Ripley and Burke after she finds out he wants to the take the huggers back.
Quote from: SM on Jul 10, 2012, 01:48:50 AM
QuoteBut that's you simply filling in gaps in Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
Erm... that's all addressed in the film during the exchange between Ripley and Burke after she finds out he wants to the take the huggers back.
Except that there are a million plot holes in Aliens that everyone chooses to overlook. Yes - chooses = they make the choice.
When I think of how many people praise Cameron's Alien design over the Deacon... when Cameron himself says he chose to abandon much of Giger's design in favor of movement and shadows.
Imagine that -- this pillar of cinematic perfection steering his design away from Giger - and actually devolving the Xeno -- yhet conveniently ignored by the vast majority [not all] posters here.
It defies logic. Come on SM -- search your feelings - you know this to be true.
QuoteExcept that there are a million plot holes in Aliens that everyone chooses to overlook.
Such as? Cos the one above isn't.
Design changes aren't plot holes as such. Winston himself was a bit torn 'cos he didn't want to repeat someone else's work. Yet said he had to remain faithful to it.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 10:38:32 PM
Also from a different page of the same site http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/ (http://www.projectprometheus.com/crew/)
QuoteThe mission of Project Prometheus is to seek out the actual origin of mankind, wherever it may be. Weyland Industries believes this voyage will yield extraordinary dividends for its investors; financially and spiritually. This mission is incredible in scope: not only do we endeavor to bring vital knowledge back to investors, but it will mark the furthest a human has ever ventured into our universe. Because of the high level of risk involved, Weyland has searched far and wide to find the most skilled, dedicated and exceptional professionals to contribute their expertise to the mission. These are the people who will build a better world for us all.
And yet ....... :)
Now that doesn't make sense anymore... :-\
The 2073 text implies that the project has been around for quite a while, and they just found a "classified destination" that puts the project back on track.
But Weyland doesn't know about Shaw until 2079 wich means she doesn't have any purpose since the company has already the location...
And then the mission isn't classified anymore
Quote from: projectprometheus.com"Weyland Industries believes this voyage will yield extraordinary dividends for its investors; financially and spiritually"
Finally it says that no one has ever traveled so far, and it's a high risk mission
Quote from: projectprometheus.comit will mark the furthest a human has ever ventured into our universe. Because of the high level of risk involved, Weyland has searched far and wide to find the most skilled etc...
That would mean you have to know what the mission is about before signing in, no way you just get in there like a tourist just because you're paid good money.
All that seems to me is that there is no real thought out timeline, and they are just making stuff up and throwing it out there because it sounds cool.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 09, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
Honestly I wouldn't be bothered with that kind of detail in any of the movies I watch. I was not bothered with how Prometheus crew could breath in the temple while there was a big hole in the temple. I can live without small detail.
Small detail being that lieutenant Ripley and a good chunk of well trained Marines including the corporal lead the entire surviving group into a room that could be accessed via above, below or simple air vents? AFTER looking at the schematics? They might as well have hung some T-bone steaks on the door. This scene was originally much worse because the whole sentry gun "thing" was absent in the original cut.
That's kind of a perfect example, because what you find small others may find massive.
I can quite easily find you 5 glaring holes in Aliens if you want. They are not that hard to find. It is however, a great movie and I can give it a pass on most of these. EDIT : Actually I'll rephrase that, there's nothing glaring, but there are some things in Aliens that don't quite add up. There are also a lot of bloopers. Look em up on the net (Although that's nothing really to do with plot holes).
QuoteSmall detail being that lieutenant Ripley and a good chunk of well trained Marines including the corporal lead the entire surviving group into a room that could be accessed via above, below or simple air vents? AFTER looking at the schematics? They might as well have hung some T-bone steaks on the door. This scene was originally much worse because the whole sentry gun "thing" was absent in the original cut.
The suspended ceiling and subflooring weren't in the schematics, and the vents opened into Medical, the next room over.
Hence Ripley saying "Must be something we missed".
I mean I get your point, but that's not one of
Aliens' problems :P
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 09:18:26 PM
So...why exactly did multiple ancient astronauts bother to meticulously describe a star configuration in the sky to many different primitive civilizations so that they could draw it into artefacts or cave walls? Heck, the primitive folks couldnt even see it in the night sky!
I think this revolves around the idea that the Engineers have different opinions. People have suggested that the Engie that survived in Prometheus had basically killed or trapped all the others.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 09, 2012, 11:53:36 PMI don't really think any of them did anything particularly stupid, though. Millburn being the only probable exception, and even then, hindsight is 20/20.
The joint smoking mohican geologist whose responsibility was to map the entire structure with his pups but managed to get lost in the temple is called Fifield.
The biologist who was frightened by the sight of the beheaded Engineer but wanted to hug a hissing strange looking snake is called Milburn.
Quote from: Promethée on Jul 10, 2012, 08:32:48 AMThe 2073 text implies that the project has been around for quite a while, and they just found a "classified destination" that puts the project back on track.
But Weyland doesn't know about Shaw until 2079 wich means she doesn't have any purpose since the company has already the location...
And then the mission isn't classified anymore
Indeed, if we take into account that website then Shaw and Holloway involvement becomes redundant. Weyland knew the
exact coordinates of the location 6 years before they met Shaw.
QuoteThe joint smoking mohican geologist whose responsibility was to map the entire structure with his pups but managed to get lost in the temple is called Fifield.
The biologist who was frightened by the sight of the beheaded Engineer but wanted to hug a hissing strange looking snake is called Milburn.
I do know their names...
For your first point:
1) He smoked marijuana while stressed out and stuck in a deserted facility. He wasn't working, he was anxiously awaiting the end of a storm and the rising of the sun.
2) If my memory serves, the map is on the Prometheus, not with him. I do not recall if he has access to the map, but I don't think so. I know he has coordinates, but those are about as useful in an unknown location as finding your way through a forest with longitude and latitude. How they got lost is beyond me. They did blindly follow a hologram, so that probably played a factor. Why they weren't in contact with Janek to help is also a mystery. Maybe he thought 'they got this''. Maybe he was busy with tracking the storm progress and looking at what the main group was seeing. Maybe they didn't know they were lost until it was too late, and thought they were going the right way and didn't ask for help. Or, maybe it was simple plot convenience.
As for Milburn:
1) So what, he was creeped out by a beheaded giant bipedal alien.
2) He didn't hug it, he reached out to pet it. It had a very small mouth, logically not small enough to contain fangs, like other snakes its size. Indicating it would either have small teeth, or be a constrictor. At that size, it wouldn't be a very strong constrictor. However, back to what was on film. He was confident that the gloves and suit would protect him. Like how people tease lions through the glass at zoos. Except there was no possible way he could have guessed it would be bone crushing strong, bleed acid, and regrow limbs instantly.
Quote from: SM on Jul 10, 2012, 01:48:50 AM
QuoteBut that's you simply filling in gaps in Aliens that could be construed (if you were looking at it objectively) as logic holes and conveniences. Why would Burke (being the only one who believed Ripley's story) sabotage a mission that would severely jeopardize his own safety? It would be in his own interest to ensure that the mission was carried out correctly and with the right people.
Knowing that there was an alien spacecraft on the planet (with all that possible technology for commandeering) and the very high risk of deadly xenos (which they clearly wanted to get their hands on), why would they just send a bunch of hapless marines - who have itchy trigger fingers and nuclear weapons... and who don't get briefed until they are about to go down to the planet??? It's f**king stupid... Where were the scientists, the biologists etc. etc for a mission which would involve encountering aliens and alien technology??? See when you start to put the other movies under the same microscope; they produce the same results (even if ultimately 'better' movies).
Erm... that's all addressed in the film during the exchange between Ripley and Burke after she finds out he wants to the take the huggers back.
Erm... it's not. Ripley explains what Burke was going to do after she'd rumbled him (although let's not get into how she managed to jump to those conclusions), but the film doesn't explain what Burke's original plan was. Another poster suggested that he specifically sabotaged the mission so he could get the xeno. But again, that doesn't add up... as he didn't even know, until he got to the base, that there would be facehuggers... and where was the multi-billion dollar company behind all this??? Was that the extent of their plan? To see what happens???
Darth, Burke is familiar with Ripley's account of what happened aboard the Nostromo (he mentions to Bishop that the android in her ship had a malfunction).. therefore, he knows about the facehuggers.
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 10, 2012, 01:06:28 PMI do know their names...
For your first point:
1) He smoked marijuana while stressed out and stuck in a deserted facility. He wasn't working, he was anxiously awaiting the end of a storm and the rising of the sun.
2) If my memory serves, the map is on the Prometheus, not with him. I do not recall if he has access to the map, but I don't think so. I know he has coordinates, but those are about as useful in an unknown location as finding your way through a forest with longitude and latitude. How they got lost is beyond me. They did blindly follow a hologram, so that probably played a factor. Why they weren't in contact with Janek to help is also a mystery. Maybe he thought 'they got this''. Maybe he was busy with tracking the storm progress and looking at what the main group was seeing. Maybe they didn't know they were lost until it was too late, and thought they were going the right way and didn't ask for help. Or, maybe it was simple plot convenience.
As for Milburn:
1) So what, he was creeped out by a beheaded giant bipedal alien.
2) He didn't hug it, he reached out to pet it. It had a very small mouth, logically not small enough to contain fangs, like other snakes its size. Indicating it would either have small teeth, or be a constrictor. At that size, it wouldn't be a very strong constrictor. However, back to what was on film. He was confident that the gloves and suit would protect him. Like how people tease lions through the glass at zoos. Except there was no possible way he could have guessed it would be bone crushing strong, bleed acid, and regrow limbs instantly.
And I am certain that they both look like
the most skilled, dedicated and exceptional professionals to contribute their expertise to the mission :)
Quote from: Blacklabel on Jul 10, 2012, 01:37:02 PM
Darth, Burke is familiar with Ripley's account of what happened aboard the Nostromo (he mentions to Bishop that the android in her ship had a malfunction).. therefore, he knows about the facehuggers.
Yep - Burke knows about and believes Ripley's account of what happened... but I don't think that gives him the detail to formulate a plan, back on Earth, based around secretly impregnating one of the team with an alien embryo. All the film tells us (based on Ripley's supposition) is that this is Burke's plan once he's been rumbled on LV-426. He couldn't possibly create this scenario before he gets to LV-424... as he wouldn't know if there was a contained facehugger, he wouldn't know how to secretly get someone impreganted, he doesn't know how to keep an alien contained if it bursts out of the victim before returning to Earth etc. etc. It isn't a plan that's remotely believeable (unless you are willing to believe it).
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 10, 2012, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Jul 10, 2012, 01:06:28 PMI do know their names...
For your first point:
1) He smoked marijuana while stressed out and stuck in a deserted facility. He wasn't working, he was anxiously awaiting the end of a storm and the rising of the sun.
2) If my memory serves, the map is on the Prometheus, not with him. I do not recall if he has access to the map, but I don't think so. I know he has coordinates, but those are about as useful in an unknown location as finding your way through a forest with longitude and latitude. How they got lost is beyond me. They did blindly follow a hologram, so that probably played a factor. Why they weren't in contact with Janek to help is also a mystery. Maybe he thought 'they got this''. Maybe he was busy with tracking the storm progress and looking at what the main group was seeing. Maybe they didn't know they were lost until it was too late, and thought they were going the right way and didn't ask for help. Or, maybe it was simple plot convenience.
As for Milburn:
1) So what, he was creeped out by a beheaded giant bipedal alien.
2) He didn't hug it, he reached out to pet it. It had a very small mouth, logically not small enough to contain fangs, like other snakes its size. Indicating it would either have small teeth, or be a constrictor. At that size, it wouldn't be a very strong constrictor. However, back to what was on film. He was confident that the gloves and suit would protect him. Like how people tease lions through the glass at zoos. Except there was no possible way he could have guessed it would be bone crushing strong, bleed acid, and regrow limbs instantly.
And I am certain that they both look like the most skilled, dedicated and exceptional professionals to contribute their expertise to the mission :)
It's all about the resume. ;)
Have I told you about my dead squirrel carrying professor?
QuoteErm... it's not. Ripley explains what Burke was going to do after she'd rumbled him (although let's not get into how she managed to jump to those conclusions), but the film doesn't explain what Burke's original plan was.
Yes, it does. When Ripley confronts Burke about him being the one who sent the colonists out to check the signal. If they found something based on Burke's direction, he'd get discovery rights and be able to negotiate lucrative contracts with bio-weapons. He didn't intend for the entire colony to get infested; there's nothing even saying he planned on
anyone getting infected to start with. All he needed was someone to
find the things Ripley talked about.
When everything went to hell and the Marines announced they were going to nuke the remaining specimens,
that's when he hatched his plan to use the two contained face-huggers to smuggle Aliens back through quarantine.
All of this is explained in the movie. He made a bad call, then tried to salvage what he could.
^ Exactly.
It's all made clear in the film for those paying attention.
Essentially he was on a fishing expedition. If something turns up, $$$ with little direct investment. If nothing turns up - no harm done; no wasted investment. Which is pretty much mirroring what happened in the first film.
So I was reading a story about the physics of corn starch on the BBC news website today, as you do, and discovered a link to this:
Cornstarch and low-frequency sound waves -> cornstarch monsters!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU#ws)
I wonder if the Prometheus effects team used this technique for the practical effect shots of the urn lids eroding/dancing/floating in real time, on-camera, without the need for CGI?
^ that looks surreal!
Quote from: SiL on Jul 10, 2012, 10:44:04 PM
QuoteErm... it's not. Ripley explains what Burke was going to do after she'd rumbled him (although let's not get into how she managed to jump to those conclusions), but the film doesn't explain what Burke's original plan was.
Yes, it does. When Ripley confronts Burke about him being the one who sent the colonists out to check the signal. If they found something based on Burke's direction, he'd get discovery rights and be able to negotiate lucrative contracts with bio-weapons. He didn't intend for the entire colony to get infested; there's nothing even saying he planned on anyone getting infected to start with. All he needed was someone to find the things Ripley talked about.
When everything went to hell and the Marines announced they were going to nuke the remaining specimens, that's when he hatched his plan to use the two contained face-huggers to smuggle Aliens back through quarantine.
All of this is explained in the movie. He made a bad call, then tried to salvage what he could.
No - it's paid lip service in the movie - nothing more. Everything else is just conjecture. Again I ask... So if Burke and 'The Company' know of the xeno's existence (and the company have known since
Alien right?), and all the billions of wealth that alien tech can bring, why is the mission manned by just a bunch of incompetent marines (not even SAS calibre)? Where are the scientists? Where are the biologists? Where are the company suits (other than Burke who is an idiot)? Etc. etc. The plan described in
Aliens by Ripley is by no means a plan for a billion dollar company to aquire alien tech. What was Burke's plan before they landed? He knew that everything had gone tits up and all the colonists were probably dead right... so what was he expecting to do when he got there? Bag an egg from the derelict himself? None of this is explained in the movie... it's just forgotten/brushed over for the sake of convenience.
I actually find it incredulous that people can bang on about a geologist getting lost etc. in
Prometheus, but completely excuse some of the biggest inconsistencies in the entire franchise in the other movies...
'Cos they're not inconsistencies I imagine.
QuoteSo if Burke and 'The Company' know of the xeno's existence (and the company have known since Alien right?), and all the billions of wealth that alien tech can bring, why is the mission manned by just a bunch of incompetent marines (not even SAS calibre)?
Simple - as addressed in the movie for those paying attention - 'The Company' didn't know. Burke was acting on his own because he didn't want to "make a major security situation out of it". If The Company knew they wouldn't have sat on their hands for 57 years - or even sent tug jockies in the first place.
QuoteWhere are the scientists? Where are the biologists? Where are the company suits (other than Burke who is an idiot)? Etc. etc.
Again, all answered in the film. Burke was acting on his own in order to get exclusive rights in case Ripley was telling the truth.
QuoteThe plan described in Aliens by Ripley is by no means a plan for a billion dollar company to aquire alien tech. What was Burke's plan before they landed?
He didn't have any plan. If the colonists really had found the ship, and if the Alien was as dangerous as Ripley suggested and if he could get his mitts on a specimen (hence his objection to nuknig the colony) - great. But prior to that he knew as much as everyone else.
QuoteNone of this is explained in the movie... it's just forgotten/brushed over for the sake of convenience.
It's been explained in the movie, and it's been explained again here. If you choose to shut your eyes and go LALALALALALA! - fine. But don't make shit up to make a non-existant argument, and expect anyone with more than half a brain to buy it.
Some people are really thick. (In regard to the Aliens/Burke debate)
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: BLAIN
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
Oh yes it does! The engineer opens 'the sacrificial bowl' to reveal a SEALED ramekin, like the urns, but then the surface starts to erode when exposed to The Planet's air atmosphere, thus exposing the black goo.
Did you not pay attention?
It doesn't erode but reacts to the atmosphere.Has to do with temperature.Juggernaught loading bay is cooled,you see their breath when they talk its obviously cold.David keeps the Urn on ice and there is no reaction.
Quote from: Effectz on Jul 13, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 05, 2012, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: BLAIN
No, the goo never bursts forth at the beginning, the guy opens the mini-wok, drinks the goo, and is disintegrated, his DNA broken down and rebuilt, cellular life begins anew, etc...
Oh yes it does! The engineer opens 'the sacrificial bowl' to reveal a SEALED ramekin, like the urns, but then the surface starts to erode when exposed to The Planet's air atmosphere, thus exposing the black goo.
Did you not pay attention?
It doesn't erode but reacts to the atmosphere.Has to do with temperature.Juggernaught loading bay is cooled,you see their breath when they talk its obviously cold.David keeps the Urn on ice and there is no reaction.
Oh no, some people will go to watch it again just to prove whether the container does or doesn't erode/burst/react!!! :)
Quote from: SM on Jul 12, 2012, 11:13:18 PM
'Cos they're not inconsistencies I imagine.
QuoteSo if Burke and 'The Company' know of the xeno's existence (and the company have known since Alien right?), and all the billions of wealth that alien tech can bring, why is the mission manned by just a bunch of incompetent marines (not even SAS calibre)?
Simple - as addressed in the movie for those paying attention - 'The Company' didn't know. Burke was acting on his own because he didn't want to "make a major security situation out of it". If The Company knew they wouldn't have sat on their hands for 57 years - or even sent tug jockies in the first place.
QuoteWhere are the scientists? Where are the biologists? Where are the company suits (other than Burke who is an idiot)? Etc. etc.
Again, all answered in the film. Burke was acting on his own in order to get exclusive rights in case Ripley was telling the truth.
QuoteThe plan described in Aliens by Ripley is by no means a plan for a billion dollar company to aquire alien tech. What was Burke's plan before they landed?
He didn't have any plan. If the colonists really had found the ship, and if the Alien was as dangerous as Ripley suggested and if he could get his mitts on a specimen (hence his objection to nuknig the colony) - great. But prior to that he knew as much as everyone else.
QuoteNone of this is explained in the movie... it's just forgotten/brushed over for the sake of convenience.
It's been explained in the movie, and it's been explained again here. If you choose to shut your eyes and go LALALALALALA! - fine. But don't make shit up to make a non-existant argument, and expect anyone with more than half a brain to buy it.
Nothing worse than those who complain about every little thing, but then inanely defend to the death something they like. Funny how that works aint it? ::)
The company that infiltrated the Nostromo with an Android and sent the ship to the planet (with special orders) don't know what's going on in the events of
Aliens??? Instead they sign off Burke as the company representative.... and Burke's insidious plan is to recruit a group of idioctic marines? Right...
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 13, 2012, 10:00:41 AM
Oh no, some people will go to watch it again just to prove whether the container does or doesn't erode/burst/react!!! :)
It does react, it's quite clear as the camera cuts to the cup. It's the same as when the squad enter the room. The tops of the jars start to react to the change in atmosphere.
QuoteNothing worse than those who complain about every little thing, but then inanely defend to the death something they like. Funny how that works aint it?
Don't know. You tell me.
QuoteThe company that infiltrated the Nostromo with an Android and sent the ship to the planet (with special orders) don't know what's going on in the events of Aliens Instead they sign off Burke as the company representative.... and Burke's insidious plan is to recruit a group of idioctic marines? Right...
Not quite, but you're slowly heading in the right direction.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 13, 2012, 11:08:17 AM
The company that infiltrated the Nostromo with an Android and sent the ship to the planet (with special orders) don't know what's going on in the events of Aliens??? Instead they sign off Burke as the company representative.... and Burke's insidious plan is to recruit a group of idioctic marines? Right...
Or, a select few knew about what exactly was going on in the first film. So they decided to send the Nostromo to go check it out after they picked up a signal. After they found out that shit went down, they tried to cover their tracks. 57 years later, management changed. The people who were in the know during the events of Alien don't work there anymore so how would the company know now?
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 12, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
So I was reading a story about the physics of corn starch on the BBC news website today, as you do, and discovered a link to this:
Cornstarch and low-frequency sound waves -> cornstarch monsters!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU#ws)
I wonder if the Prometheus effects team used this technique for the practical effect shots of the urn lids eroding/dancing/floating in real time, on-camera, without the need for CGI?
yup they did
Quote from: Sgt. Apone on Jul 16, 2012, 06:38:03 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 13, 2012, 11:08:17 AM
The company that infiltrated the Nostromo with an Android and sent the ship to the planet (with special orders) don't know what's going on in the events of Aliens??? Instead they sign off Burke as the company representative.... and Burke's insidious plan is to recruit a group of idioctic marines? Right...
Or, a select few knew about what exactly was going on in the first film. So they decided to send the Nostromo to go check it out after they picked up a signal. After they found out that shit went down, they tried to cover their tracks. 57 years later, management changed. The people who were in the know during the events of Alien don't work there anymore so how would the company know now?
That's fine, but it's dependant on us/the audience filling in the blanks (or making excuses for gaps in logic) - which is what
Prometheus is being criticised for... and of course come
Alien 3 it looks like the company know exactly what's going on (but that's another can of worms)...
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 12, 2012, 08:00:21 PMSo I was reading a story about the physics of corn starch
As you do. ;)
Seriously, thanks for posting it. I was wondering how they pulled that off.
Quoteand of course come Alien 3 it looks like the company know exactly what's going on (but that's another can of worms)...
Not a can of worms. By the
end of Alien 3 they know what's happeneing after receiving data from the Sulaco and EEV.
Quote from: SM on Jul 16, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quoteand of course come Alien 3 it looks like the company know exactly what's going on (but that's another can of worms)...
Not a can of worms. By the end of Alien 3 they know what's happeneing after receiving data from the Sulaco and EEV.
I think the Company has always known what was going on, first recieving data from the Nostromo then the Sulaco and finally through the EEV, and just like any multi-million dollar corporation that probably had too much power, they used others to finally get what they wanted.
Quote from: RoaryUK on Jul 17, 2012, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: SM on Jul 16, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quoteand of course come Alien 3 it looks like the company know exactly what's going on (but that's another can of worms)...
Not a can of worms. By the end of Alien 3 they know what's happeneing after receiving data from the Sulaco and EEV.
I think the Company has always known what was going on, first recieving data from the Nostromo then the Sulaco and finally through the EEV, and just like any multi-million dollar corporation that probably had too much power, they used others to finally get what they wanted.
I agree - my reading is that the company have always known. However, I don't think the respectice scripts fot Alien/Aliens do it justice.... to the point where it doesn't really make sense. I think most companies would just pay for a research team to go in, take control and claim the rights. Yes it could be argued that Weyland hired a bunch of goons, but in Prometheus it at least resembled a proper expedition.
If you take the AvP movies into account -- wouldn't at least Yutani have been in the know for quite some time?
Kinda like the Terminator arm sitting in Teldine's lab [or whatever that company was called]?
Finally after a long time we have advanced space travel and now 2 + 2 finally = 4
So to me - the Company always knows more than we are shown - how much and by whom is the question.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 17, 2012, 04:56:16 PM
I agree - my reading is that the company have always known. However, I don't think the respectice scripts fot Alien/Aliens do it justice.... to the point where it doesn't really make sense. I think most companies would just pay for a research team to go in, take control and claim the rights.
It's game time, kids. Tonight, it's "Spot the Hideous Flaw in Logic".
Your starter for ten:
"I think the Company has explicit knowledge. The films do not support this. Therefore the films are in error".
If your reading isn't supported by the text,
your reading is wrong. It's that simple.
:laugh:
I guess what SiL is saying is that if it's not in the movie - then it simply didn't happen. True enough.
But a good movie should spark the imagination and allow something implied to take root in your mind.
Vile might have been wrong in saying the film doesn't flesh out what he thinks it meant to but it's actually there. I think he meant it the way I read his comment - which is that it is implied the Company knows more than it lets on. And as I agree - he's not out of line - because we both "read" it the same way.
I'm saying what I said; one can't fault the films for not supporting one's reading.
It doesn't make sense to say the movies are full of plot holes or gaps in logic, if the holes and gaps in logic only exist because of people assuming something not actually in evidence.
DarthVile claims that the whole situation with Aliens is nonsensical because he's operating under the assumption that the Company and Burke explicitly knew about the Aliens. The movie, through its own dialogue and actions, shows this isn't the case. The film isn't faulty; DarthVile's assumptions are.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 18, 2012, 10:46:01 AM
I'm saying what I said; one can't fault the films for not supporting one's reading.
It doesn't make sense to say the movies are full of plot holes or gaps in logic, if the holes and gaps in logic only exist because of people assuming something not actually in evidence.
DarthVile claims that the whole situation with Aliens is nonsensical because he's operating under the assumption that the Company and Burke explicitly knew about the Aliens. The movie, through its own dialogue and actions, shows this isn't the case. The film isn't faulty; DarthVile's assumptions are.
So how the fuc*k do YOU explain Ash being on board the Nostromo? Happy coincidence? Apply that same logic to Prometheus. At least apply some consistency when trying to look through your rose tinted spectacles...
I can explain it by watching the movie.
They knew there was a signal of non-human origin that they wanted to investigate. They put Ash aboard to make sure it got done. The Special Order also said they wanted the ship to bring back a life-form, that's it. It doesn't specify what. For all the film presents, the Company may well have wanted a sample of whatever it was that made the signal.
If they knew about the Alien, capital A, it makes no sense to send a tug ship. If they knew the signal was from a Space Jockey, or Engineer, or whatever, then considering Prometheus, it also makes no sense they'd reroute the Nostromo. In either of those cases, they would've sent a dedicated team to investigate -- which is exactly what they do in Alien3 when the Company knows there's an Alien on Fiorina. They didn't just nudge the nearest Meals on Plasma Engines in its direction.
"something very familiar about all this..."
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus6%2Fold_biff.jpg&hash=cf1424af8982c144e9f8f277db6388a411916c6f)
srsly...
I guess some people are just into digging holes.
I guess? ???
Quote from: SiL on Jul 18, 2012, 10:15:55 PM
I can explain it by watching the movie.
They knew there was a signal of non-human origin that they wanted to investigate. They put Ash aboard to make sure it got done. The Special Order also said they wanted the ship to bring back a life-form, that's it. It doesn't specify what. For all the film presents, the Company may well have wanted a sample of whatever it was that made the signal.
If they knew about the Alien, capital A, it makes no sense to send a tug ship. If they knew the signal was from a Space Jockey, or Engineer, or whatever, then considering Prometheus, it also makes no sense they'd reroute the Nostromo. In either of those cases, they would've sent a dedicated team to investigate -- which is exactly what they do in Alien3 when the Company knows there's an Alien on Fiorina. They didn't just nudge the nearest Meals on Plasma Engines in its direction.
So you are just making your own version of events up to justify gaps in logic... Do you really think that they thought through that particular plot arc when introducing Ash into the story/script for
Alien? We know that Ash's inclusion, as beneficial to the movie as it is, was a latter addition. I think the fact is that they focused on the premise of an android secretly being on the ship (to serve the company plan) rather than the logic behind it i.e. if the company knew of the alien transmissions, and they had the time to infiltrate the crew of the Nostromo with a company android, why not just send a properly equipped expedition in the first place??? That's a gap in logic right there.
All you are doing SiL is giving your explanation as to why that may not be the case (which is fine)... but your explanation is not presented in the movie. It's your own conjecture... and it's a mass of
assumptions.
Quote from: 180924609 on Jul 18, 2012, 10:25:08 PM
"something very familiar about all this..."
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus6%2Fold_biff.jpg&hash=cf1424af8982c144e9f8f277db6388a411916c6f)
Biff -- one of the most underrated antagonists in movie history.
Well anyway, all I was saying in my previous comment was it doesn't need to be in the movie, the Company could have easliy orchestrated everything from the background, it's all hypothetical of course but then you can also argue why shouldn't W/Y want to keep track!
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jul 18, 2012, 10:46:01 AM
I'm saying what I said; one can't fault the films for not supporting one's reading.
It doesn't make sense to say the movies are full of plot holes or gaps in logic, if the holes and gaps in logic only exist because of people assuming something not actually in evidence.
DarthVile claims that the whole situation with Aliens is nonsensical because he's operating under the assumption that the Company and Burke explicitly knew about the Aliens. The movie, through its own dialogue and actions, shows this isn't the case. The film isn't faulty; DarthVile's assumptions are.
So how the fuc*k do YOU explain Ash being on board the Nostromo? Happy coincidence? Apply that same logic to Prometheus. At least apply some consistency when trying to look through your rose tinted spectacles...
Hoho .. you don't need to be rude to assert your opinion. You may be wrong you know? Wrong and rude is not a good combination.
So for you, Ash being on board of Nostromo means Weyland knew about Xeno? Can you then tell us where you get that idea from?
- Do you know from the movie about other WY mining expeditions apart from Nostromo?
- Do you know from the movie whether WY always includes an android (as science officer in Alien) in each mining expedition or only in Nostromo?
- Do you know from the movie whether it was the first expedition for the crew or whether they have been doing that regularly as a team (and hence Ash has always been part of the team)?
Tell us exactly which scene/dialogue in the movie which supports your assumption. Or is this just your speculative imagination? If it is, then refrain from using rude language. What you think of
Alien may be true ... but only in your head.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 18, 2012, 10:15:55 PMThey knew there was a signal of non-human origin that they wanted to investigate. They put Ash aboard to make sure it got done.
The computer on board, Mother, only manages to decode part of the distress signal (which is actually a warning message rather than S.O.S) once some men are already on the planet. And there is no dialogue or scene showing that the company had prior knowledge apart from that.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 19, 2012, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Jul 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jul 18, 2012, 10:46:01 AM
I'm saying what I said; one can't fault the films for not supporting one's reading.
It doesn't make sense to say the movies are full of plot holes or gaps in logic, if the holes and gaps in logic only exist because of people assuming something not actually in evidence.
DarthVile claims that the whole situation with Aliens is nonsensical because he's operating under the assumption that the Company and Burke explicitly knew about the Aliens. The movie, through its own dialogue and actions, shows this isn't the case. The film isn't faulty; DarthVile's assumptions are.
So how the fuc*k do YOU explain Ash being on board the Nostromo? Happy coincidence? Apply that same logic to Prometheus. At least apply some consistency when trying to look through your rose tinted spectacles...
Hoho .. you don't need to be rude to assert your opinion. You may be wrong you know? Wrong and rude is not a good combination.
So for you, Ash being on board of Nostromo means Weyland knew about Xeno? Can you then tell us where you get that idea from?
- Do you know from the movie about other WY mining expeditions apart from Nostromo?
- Do you know from the movie whether WY always includes an android (as science officer in Alien) in each mining expedition or only in Nostromo?
- Do you know from the movie whether it was the first expedition for the crew or whether they have been doing that regularly as a team (and hence Ash has always been part of the team)?
Tell us exactly which scene/dialogue in the movie which supports your assumption. Or is this just your speculative imagination? If it is, then refrain from using rude language. What you think of Alien may be true ... but only in your head.
Yes we know there's no evidence, but isn't it perfectly logical to "assume" Ash could have been relaying his findings back to W/Y, the Nostromo may have been just a commercial frigate but she was able to send and receive, so why not? We just don't know that!
Quote from: SM on Jul 18, 2012, 11:37:43 PMsrsly...
I guess some people are just into digging holes.
So true
Quote from: RoaryUK on Jul 19, 2012, 12:32:06 PMYes we know there's no evidence, but isn't it perfectly logical to "assume" Ash could have been relaying his findings back to W/Y, the Nostromo may have been just a commercial frigate but she was able to send and receive, so why not? We just don't know that!
If there is no evidence, then there is no perfectly logical assumption. You are of course free to imagine what you want to add to the movie but keep it for yourself.
I personally don't need to know whether WY had prior knowledge or not. I am happy with the fact that Nostromo on her way back to Earth picks up a distress signal and sends the crew down to LV-426 for a rescue operation. It is a pure coincidence.
Quote from: Anonymous User on Jul 19, 2012, 12:37:54 PM
Quote from: SM on Jul 18, 2012, 11:37:43 PMsrsly...
I guess some people are just into digging holes.
So true
Quote from: RoaryUK on Jul 19, 2012, 12:32:06 PMYes we know there's no evidence, but isn't it perfectly logical to "assume" Ash could have been relaying his findings back to W/Y, the Nostromo may have been just a commercial frigate but she was able to send and receive, so why not? We just don't know that!
If there is no evidence, then there is no perfectly logical assumption. You are of course free to imagine what you want to add to the movie but keep it for yourself.
I personally don't need to know whether WY had prior knowledge or not. I am happy with the fact that Nostromo on her way back to Earth picks up a distress signal and sends the crew down to LV-426 for a rescue operation. It is a pure coincidence.
Who cares what you want it's called debate!! There are lots of questions these movies leave we all like to dsicuss. People still talk about the egg on the Sulaco because it was there, there was no evidence to say how, just like I'm suggesting the Company could have been involved all along because they are part of every movie, no one can say either of us is right or wrong. And don't tell me how to keep things to myself when I have as much right to be here!!