A wonderful video from CorderyFX on YouTube that goes into a nice review of the Predator heads over the course of the films. Some of the photoshop updates are interesting to see a different view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNiLv8wBJX4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNiLv8wBJX4)
*changed title name. Hicks.
Well, at least this one is in its own thread ...
... oh wait
To be fully honest I've never heard of Cordery FX. Aren't they too small of an fx company to be taking on the next predator ?
It's not concerning that.
Video does a good job of explaining the issue.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 21, 2021, 10:48:41 AM
To be fully honest I've never heard of Cordery FX. Aren't they too small of an fx company to be taking on the next predator ?
More of a movie reviewer and commentator than a company. He has done effects for movies, tho mostly obscure low budget movies.
This is awesome! Hopefully the right people are listening! Well done
Bashing Berserker Predators face design ?
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0MYNI50nCCOa3f8c/200.gif)
And argument like "It just sucks" just doesn't count
Quote from: Pearlhead on Feb 21, 2021, 05:26:04 PM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 21, 2021, 10:48:41 AM
To be fully honest I've never heard of Cordery FX. Aren't they too small of an fx company to be taking on the next predator ?
More of a movie reviewer and commentator than a company. He has done effects for movies, tho mostly obscure low budget movies.
Oh ok thanks.
Ok, I've watched the video. I especially liked one point he brought up: Preds' faces from original and from P2 were designed with closed mandibles in mind while AvP movies and subsequent sequels went with the opposite idea of mandibles being able to open as far as possible. Not something I've ever thought about before
I agree about the floppy skin making them look cheap and fake. That's a big obvious problem and to think nobody changed that is baffling to be honest.
I've said the same thing about "scientists" in Prometheus but I've never noticed skin flopping issue untill it was brought up to me by someone else. I guess, I'm just blind to such things :D
Always been very noticable to me.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/6ba191ba98b341e3037459ccbd42f6a2/tenor.gif?itemid=4912044)
Idk, it helps when AvP was your introduction point
Most likely the reality of it actually. I idolized the first two films for over a decade before Scar took his helmet off.
I grew up being blown away by the effects work on Jungle & City Hunter
To be fair, at least Wolf's not as blatant as the others, thanks to the lack of light lol.
Let's the "Requiem is so dark" jokes begin ! :D
My introduction to the franchise was AVP, I grew up with it, and I'm able to see how bad the Predator face design was in it since I was 14, and I'm 20 now
I'm 20 too, but I just can't. Call it denial if you like.
What were your thoughts on AvP when you watched it for the first time - did you love it, did you like it or did you thought it was "meh" ?
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 21, 2021, 09:27:32 PM
I'm 20 too, but I just can't. Call it denial if you like.
What were your thoughts on AvP when you watched it for the first time - did you love it, did you like it or did you thought it was "meh" ?
I was 5-6 when i watched it, and for a while, it was the only movie I ever watched, the first solo movie I watched after was Predator 2, then Alien Ressurection
Weird order.
I prefer term "unique perspective" myself
It took me a long time to watch all Alien and Predator movies, Alien 3 was the last one I watched back when I was 9, then Predators came along yadda yadda, now my favorite movies of both franchises are the first 2 Alien movies and the first 2 Predator movies, and I always noticed something was wrong with Scar's face since I had seen Predator 2
thoughts in order
-circle clickbait photos as thumbnails is super cringe (so is the title)
-2021 and people still using the super-fake airplane story as an accurate portrayal of the design process (read: Predator design went from Munro/Short to Winston/Wang, and MANY of the character design traits that are now iconic to Predator were originally conceived by Munro/Short)
-this guy makes (x) assumption about a function the mandibles have, and then criticizes the artistic liberty taken by the sequels based on that assumption which is his assumption and not, you know, something established by anyone involved in the movies (if we are to take into account "biological plausibility" of the Predator based on real life animals, the Predator's face does not make any sense whatsoever -- you need several third-party assumptions to make it work)
-case in point: he argues that the mandibles serve the purpose of making the mouth insides not dry out... which would make sense, except for the part where the predator's assumed "gum integument" is still exposed even with closed mandibles. In order to do what the guy says the mandibles do, the mandibles would have to have flaps in order to have a complete, tight seal over the mouth area; which they don't (maxed out BD in Biology speaking here, gents)
-most of the criticisms he brings up cannot be applied to Predator 2 and yet he insists on saying "sequels" without specifying further. How peculiar: he mistakes personal taste with what should've been done artistically by -- hold up -- the very same team, head-by-head, that created the original creature? Damn!
-the "city hunter" is much more fleshed out character-wise than the original, and there's SEVERAL scenes in the movie testifying that -- but what would the character creators know, right? Predator 2 had literally EVERY SINGLE person involved in the original on the roster...
-the "biological point" of the face is stated nowhere in the literature I've collected and read for the past decade and I'll be happy to be proved wrong. A sequel can't "miss a point" that was never there in the first place...
-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific
-the bit where he says the wrinkles in the mandible skin are due to sculpture and moulding is complete bull ie the wrinkling is due to multiple rehearsals and footage being filmed. That's silicone being unable to snap back after being stretched beyond its capability to snap back! You can't always change the skin on a creature, especially when your filming schedule is SUPER tight (see: AvP). On this matter, the original Pred was "lucky" - they were in such frenzy to finish that they didn't shoot much with it (so much that they actually used stock footage)
-the guy "fixes" scar but forgets the little teeth in-between the upper jaw fangs
-wolf didn't get "back on track" it simply had a different direction compared to the AvP preds
-much as I'm not fond of the lockjaw pred in Predators that guy had been hanging by a totem for god knows how much and he certainly didn't drink eat or anything while there... try doing that and looking in your top shape. The lockjaw IS a complete mystery... and pretty much the only thing I agree on so far
-Berserker et al aren't "alpha" predators and were never intended as such
-watch the difference between dog breeds (pug vs golden retriever) and yet they are of the same species...
-again, fugitive has been in the lab being studied and basically tortured for some time... can't look top shape
-overall the attitude (esp in the Predator 2018 segment) is one of those spiteful, armchair-mod type attitudes I cannot stand, just dissing on the sfx artists like that having zero knowledge on what they wanted to do with the character, how that intention progressed with the execution and so forth
-agreed with the JPIII-type obsession to have the bigger new bad kill the old one gruesomely
-no I won't drop any like or subscribe to you until you do proper research on the subject matter(s) you choose to talk about
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk about this clickbait video
Wow :o You must have a PhD in monsters. I didn't want to click the video. Thanks ^
They definitely do yes I can assure you on that
The Lockjaw is a animation kind of deal, rather than a design one, Scar and the Fugitive have an issue both in the design and in the animatronic, as both don't follow the normal anatomy set up in the first 2 solo movies, I don't like dunking on ADI because they genuinely place effort into that they do, but their pred face designs have always been majorly different to the original designs
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 23, 2021, 11:50:49 PM
Wow :o You must have a PhD in monsters. I didn't want to click the video. Thanks ^
no such thing but I've been studying creature features and effects for the past decade so I may know a thing or two (see signature)
(and unlike this guy, I've grown past the stage of confusing my own view with a supposedly objective dogma)
EDIT: touch my baby boi Predator 2 and all you gonna get is THESE HANDS
EDIT 2: I wish I was mod here just to add 6 more quotation marks around the world analysis in the thread title
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 23, 2021, 11:42:51 PM
-2021 and people still using the super-fake airplane story as an accurate portrayal of the design process (read: Predator design went from Munro/Short to Winston/Wang, and MANY of the character design traits that are now iconic to Predator were originally conceived by Munro/Short)
To be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston describes in a documentary as the story behind the mandibles, that it being a James Cameron conception? Even with home video ownership and love for all the movies, who could blame someone for believing its behind-the-scenes featurette?
It be fair to suggest that not many general fans that go beyond the movies and supplementals would know the real story. There hasn't been a Predator book published containing that info...
(https://i.ibb.co/25D5pmn/5185-1384987923-c3a9de978fce6432fb2255dea7f1ab71.jpg)
And not knowing to
not trust Stan Winston here doesn't take away from being able to view and be critical of various practical effect results in a franchise.
Quote-most of the criticisms he brings up cannot be applied to Predator 2 and yet he insists on saying "sequels" without specifying further. How peculiar: he mistakes personal taste with what should've been done artistically by -- hold up -- the very same team, head-by-head, that created the original creature? Damn!
-the "city hunter" is much more fleshed out character-wise than the original, and there's SEVERAL scenes in the movie testifying that -- but what would the character creators know, right? Predator 2 had literally EVERY SINGLE person involved in the original on the roster...
I don't know. This seems excessive for 10 seconds on Predator 2 and I adore Predator 2. All the content creator mentioned was it started to stray with needing a little more cheek skin, but then quickly followed it up that it still properly maintains the closed mandible look of the Jungle Hunter. I'm not sure I even agree with the tiny criticism, but it feels like you're perhaps having a slight overreaction to it. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/xjfhWjd/tumblr-nl7pj5-D1n-C1u1vwpho2-500-1.gif)
(https://i.ibb.co/kqpQkWZ/tumblr-or8kgl-RR9l1rp0vkjo1-500.gif)
Quote-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific
I highly doubt Anderson instructed ADI to make sure Scar's excess skin roll and fold in odd, peculiar, seemingly unnatural ways... "It better not appear elastic and realistic ADI! And make sure his mandible teeth point in odd weird directions too!!!!" :P
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/0a1771ca992104d6dd71567ee4de7a43/tumblr_pmylellN1r1xuau3co1_500.gif)
Quote-watch the difference between dog breeds (pug vs golden retriever) and yet they are of the same species...
Yet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way, where some of ADIs Predators appear to have broken jaws.
(https://i.ibb.co/C6ymHP6/Screenshot-20190-093524-1.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/KsS3qjw/IMG-20190225-140941.png)
Quote-again, fugitive has been in the lab being studied and basically tortured for some time... can't look top shape
Tortured? How so? You knock this guy for making an assumption here and there, yet to be fair, you're doing it too.
Look, full disclosure here, I loathe the ADI Predators. They have not come close at all to Stan Winston's in my opinion in regards to quality, design, proportion and realism. And I'd like to get there again. I realize some things are a result of director influence with ADI Predators. But the same can be absolutely said with Predator 1 and 2. Personally, after three tries, I believe Predators are not ADI's strong suit and hope another FX house gets a chance. Or even KNB again. At this point, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
QuoteTo be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston describes in a documentary as the story behind the mandibles, that it being a James Cameron conception? Even with home video ownership and love for all the movies, who could blame someone for believing its behind-the-scenes featurette?
If someone's going to act like they know what they're talking about and provide an "analysis", it's kind of fair to expect them to do some research and know what they're talking about.
QuoteYet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1dd2095ba40ef7ea3eb8951aa1a587cf/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao2_1280.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/x9rq9s2wjiq31.png)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/2439c8d1fbe8a4862003e04791218088/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao1_1280.jpg)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg)
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 04:08:19 AM
QuoteTo be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston describes in a documentary as the story behind the mandibles, that it being a James Cameron conception? Even with home video ownership and love for all the movies, who could blame someone for believing its behind-the-scenes featurette?
If someone's going to act like they know what they're talking about and provide an "analysis", it's kind of fair to expect them to do some research and know what they're talking about.
Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.
QuoteQuoteYet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1dd2095ba40ef7ea3eb8951aa1a587cf/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao2_1280.jpg)
https://i.redd.it/x9rq9s2wjiq31.png
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/2439c8d1fbe8a4862003e04791218088/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao1_1280.jpg)
https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg
Thank you. This exactly demonstrates my point. All the jaw bones are structured the same way. They all close the same way. They don't appear broken.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.
It's also natural to research a topic.
QuoteThey all close the same way. They don't appear broken.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1dd2095ba40ef7ea3eb8951aa1a587cf/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao2_1280.jpg)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg)
The jaw of the Shih Tzu very,
very clearly does not close the same way as the husky. The maxilla of the husky (and most of the others) extends further than the mandible -- it's the opposite on the Shih Tzu, which has a distinct underbite. The pug also has an underbite, and a highly recessed nose.
Let's put some skin on them.
(https://www.purina.com.au/-/media/project/purina/main/breeds/dog/dog_siberian-husky_desktop.jpg?h=475&la=en&w=825&hash=B2B86CD3D2D85392DB3948A07E63FB09)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG/220px-Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG)
If dogs were movie monsters, this would get the same kind of ridicule ADI's Predators get.
Imma just say this, but it's pretty fair to say that different breeds of dogs are a complete different topic to what should be the same members of the exact same species, the Fugitive is meant to look like the 87 Predator, and he doesn't, it's a design flaw, not something that can be excused with an in universe "oh they just happen to be different breeds, hence why the mandible location and the jaw look so f**ked even when compared to other extreme examples already present in this franchise"
How do we know for sure the plane anecdote is fake ? And for the jaw thing yep it seems to be mostly personal choice/style from ADI, but that personal/choice does make the face look faker. Don't really matter if it's a choice, this choice look way less ok than what came before, that is the point.
It's possible the anecdote happened, but the mandibles were in the redesign before Winston was coming on board. Maybe Winston was thinking of getting rid of them and Cameron's comment convinced him otherwise?
Regardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same, with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.
Just because a person has an overbite it doesn't mean the structures that operate their mouth are different than a normal person
A bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
To be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston
someone who's done research on a subject that's common domain at this point
see my coverage (https://monsterlegacy.net/2017/06/12/predator/)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
It be fair to suggest that not many general fans that go beyond the movies and supplementals would know the real story. There hasn't been a Predator book published containing that info...
don't care doesn't justify
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AMdoesn't take away from being able to view and be critical of various practical effect results in a franchise
it's okay to be critical as long as a. you recognize that criticism is based on a subjective paradigm and b. you don't confuse that paradigm for the objective truth
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I don't know. This seems excessive for 10 seconds on Predator 2 and I adore Predator 2. All the content creator mentioned was it started to stray with needing a little more cheek skin, but then quickly followed it up that it still properly maintains the closed mandible look of the Jungle Hunter. I'm not sure I even agree with the tiny criticism, but it feels like you're perhaps having a slight overreaction to it. :)
there's an entire subsection in the video dedicated to P2
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I highly doubt Anderson instructed ADI to make sure Scar's excess skin roll and fold in odd, peculiar, seemingly unnatural ways... "It better not appear elastic and realistic ADI! And make sure his mandible teeth point in odd weird directions too!!!!" :P
if you read what I said a. Anderson WANTED the hero look, WANTED the human-like face because Scar was the hero of the story. This is documented in multiple places and has never once been contradicted and b. AvP's shooting schedule was super tight, they had three months of production which in filmmaking terms is HELLA tight, and they had a production budget that was too low for what they wanted to do and YET AvP looks far more expensive than $60m, there are things that of course are going to slip in all this - and Scar's floppy mandible-membrane is an example of that
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Yet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way, where some of ADIs Predators appear to have broken jaws.
"appear to have" is correct as we know absolutely zero of the intraspecific variation that happens endoskeletally between predator individuals since you know they're aliens. See SiL's photo comparison
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Tortured? How so? You knock this guy for making an assumption here and there, yet to be fair, you're doing it too.
yeah cause the scientists absolutely know how to take care of an ALIEN CREATURE don't they? That's why they keep it SEDATED WITH IMPROPER DOSAGES they couldn't possibly know? That's why upon awakening the pred is so goddamn PISSED that he decides to wreak COMPLETE HAVOC in a place filled with the species he wants to HELP? It clearly wasn't being properly treated and this is something the movie flat out visually implies - unlike the guy's assumptions, which stem from personal aesthetic taste
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Look, full disclosure here, I loathe the ADI Predators
which is why your arguments aren't all that
I loathe wolf's face - doesn't mean I will in any way call it an invalid design. Used to do that, but then I grew up. There's lots of people who like it, to the point where wolf's their fave!
Who am I to say they're wrong?Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Or even KNB again.
KNB, the guys who gave you the "crabator" and the pisspoor (following your line of reasoning) classic predator with floppity flop flop mandible membranes and lockjaw? At that point, I'd also say "no thanks" to KNB returning (if I were you)
I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 05:56:02 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.
It's also natural to research a topic.
QuoteThey all close the same way. They don't appear broken.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1dd2095ba40ef7ea3eb8951aa1a587cf/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao2_1280.jpg)
https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg
The jaw of the Shih Tzu very, very clearly does not close the same way as the husky. The maxilla of the husky (and most of the others) extends further than the mandible -- it's the opposite on the Shih Tzu, which has a distinct underbite. The pug also has an underbite, and a highly recessed nose.
Let's put some skin on them.
https://www.purina.com.au/-/media/project/purina/main/breeds/dog/dog_siberian-husky_desktop.jpg?h=475&la=en&w=825&hash=B2B86CD3D2D85392DB3948A07E63FB09
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG/220px-Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG
If dogs were movie monsters, this would get the same kind of ridicule ADI's Predators get.
Thank you this 500%
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 24, 2021, 11:01:12 AM
How do we know for sure the plane anecdote is fake ?
Because the mandibles and the rastafarian look had already been established as key traits BEFORE Winston's involvement. Shannon Shea -- who was involved in the original movie -- even commented on the dubious veridicity of that anecdote. The classic documentary "If it bleeds we can kill it" is pure sensationalistic bullshit with VERY LITTLE true information regarding what happened behind the scenes (even regarding the insect Predator XFX did). This is testified by MULTIPLE people
What Winston and Wang did was based on Munro and Short's efforts and can in essence be seen as refining or honing in. See my coverage I linked above
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 11:33:11 AM
It's possible the anecdote happened, but the mandibles were in the redesign before Winston was coming on board. Maybe Winston was thinking of getting rid of them and Cameron's comment convinced him otherwise?
Shea seemed to say in-between the lines that the anecdote was fake... but this could be the case, and if so, Winston should've said that instead of making it look like a completely different course of events
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 24, 2021, 11:44:32 AM
A bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.
You not liking those effects does not in any way establish them as bad effects, sorry mate
QuoteRegardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same, with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.
If we're just talking "it has a hinge joint" then sure. But we've seen the Predator bone structure to compare when exactly? Aside from one skull in
Predators.
The mandibles rotating and flexing in different directions doesn't actually mean the bone structure is different; those changes could be influenced by muscles and tendons. Keeping with our dog comparison, dingoes can rotate their wrists and turn their heads back a good 180 or so degrees, but their bone structure isn't fundamentally different from dogs.
I'm not arguing this excuses the designs in any way, I'm just saying these aren't great arguments against them.
Got to agree to disagree on this one, the ADI Predator faces look not... good at all to be honest, even with their intentions and the design directions and it's not because it's another take.
It's because they fail at their goal fundamentally, in comparison to past successes in Predator and Predator 2, although we can see this behind the scenes in nearly every film...
It's actually most evident in The Predator of all places, when we get a direct comparison with CGI versions of the Fugitive and of course Upgrade only exists in that, but during the holographic scene with other Predators standing around one being injected on a table- we see the former's design but without skin folds behind the mandibles- with the mandibles actually "closing properly" and with a overall head shape more in proportion with the original film and the Predator bible's depiction.
So it's clear that's what ADI's going for, or what the director asked for as we can see it's consistent with the behind the scenes design, and actually it's achieved on the CGI side of things but on the practical side of things anyone since Stan Winston can't quite manage it for unknown reasons.
I don't have any photos to demonstrate this as I don't own the film, but I think you all get what I mean, and know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I highly doubt Anderson instructed ADI to make sure Scar's excess skin roll and fold in odd, peculiar, seemingly unnatural ways... "It better not appear elastic and realistic ADI! And make sure his mandible teeth point in odd weird directions too!!!!" :P
if you read what I said a. Anderson WANTED the hero look, WANTED the human-like face because Scar was the hero of the story. This is documented in multiple places and has never once been contradicted and b.
This is what you said:
"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.
QuoteAvP's shooting schedule was super tight, they had three months of production which in filmmaking terms is HELLA tight, and they had a production budget that was too low for what they wanted to do and YET AvP looks far more expensive than $60m, there are things that of course are going to slip in all this - and Scar's floppy mandible-membrane is an example of that
This is only your assumption. It suggests all the flaws would have occurred regardless, even if Stan Winston was handling the fx versus ADI.
I don't buy into this premise.
QuoteQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Tortured? How so? You knock this guy for making an assumption here and there, yet to be fair, you're doing it too.
yeah cause the scientists absolutely know how to take care of an ALIEN CREATURE don't they? That's why they keep it SEDATED WITH IMPROPER DOSAGES they couldn't possibly know? That's why upon awakening the pred is so goddamn PISSED that he decides to wreak COMPLETE HAVOC in a place filled with the species he wants to HELP? It clearly wasn't being properly treated and this is something the movie flat out visually implies - unlike the guy's assumptions, which stem from personal aesthetic taste
In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.
I also question your need for so much capitalization. :)
QuoteQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Look, full disclosure here, I loathe the ADI Predators
which is why your arguments aren't all that
I loathe wolf's face - doesn't mean I will in any way call it an invalid design. Used to do that, but then I grew up. There's lots of people who like it, to the point where wolf's their fave! Who am I to say they're wrong?
Everyone is free to have their opinion, absolutely my friend. But you seem very riled up. Have a beer! :)
QuoteQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Or even KNB again.
KNB, the guys who gave you the "crabator" and the pisspoor (following your line of reasoning) classic predator with floppity flop flop mandible membranes and lockjaw? At that point, I'd also say "no thanks" to KNB returning (if I were you)
So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators? This doesn't seem very objective at all to me. And yes, considering KNB had only go with it, I'd definitely give them another chance. Three times... yes, I'd want someone else other than KNB too.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 24, 2021, 11:44:32 AM
Regardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same, with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.
Just because a person has an overbite it doesn't mean the structures that operate their mouth are different than a normal person
Precisely.
QuoteA bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.
i think ADI clearly is talented, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and I just don't believe Predators are one of their strengths. They had three films. Love it or hate it, they made their stamp on the franchise. Here's hoping for a new FX house! 🤞
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is what you said:
"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"
And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.
semantics
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is only your assumption.
It's documented fact and the wear those mandible membranes had to withstand is a consequence of it... you can even see them working PERFECTLY (no floppy wrinkles) in behind-the-scenes footage. Predator 2 suffered the same kind of wear
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.
depends on what you mean by intent of torture, and regardless, those are alien beings strapping the guy to a table and not allowing him to move, with god knows what in his bloodstream. He's not pleased
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
I also question your need for so much capitalization. :)
emphasis
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
Everyone is free to have their opinion, absolutely my friend. But you seem very riled up. Have a beer! :)
QuoteI'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators?
I was going by your logic - not mine. I understand the limits behind the classic pred (except for the lockjaw, which is puzzling - haven't found data on that yet)
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 03:12:14 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is what you said:
"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"
And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.
semantics
It's not when you're telling me you said something different.
QuoteQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is only your assumption.
It's documented fact and the wear those mandible membranes had to withstand is a consequence of it... you can even see them working PERFECTLY (no floppy wrinkles) in behind-the-scenes footage. Predator 2 suffered the same kind of wear
I've seen all the bits videos too and I don't buy into the blame is environment versus execution. I'm all for including a factoring of environment with all of these suits, but not solely pointing the finger when it suits (bad pun intended)
QuoteQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.
depends on what you mean by intent of torture, and regardless, those are alien beings strapping the guy to a table and not allowing him to move, with god knows what in his bloodstream. He's not pleased
He was pleased if he was playing possum. But pleased or not pleased, it still doesn't support your argument to me that the ADI costume looked bad by intention, because he was tortured.
Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators?
I was going by your logic - not mine. I understand the limits behind the classic pred (except for the lockjaw, which is puzzling - haven't found data on that yet)
Yet that isn't my logic. After AvP I was hopeful and willing to give ADI another try. Just look to Stan Winston's gorilla work in Congo, then to his redemption in Instinct, to see how an FX house can recognize and approve upon their technique mistakes. I hoped the same for ADI.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again
Voodoo, remember how annoyed you got when I was posting this GIF ?
Spoiler
(https://i.gifer.com/3T42.gif)
in response to your rants about Crabators ? And I've done it maybe half a dozen of times.
Well, now I kinda feel the same about every time you rant about Crabators. It's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.
Spoiler
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 11, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Quote from: BlazinBlue88 on Jul 11, 2020, 08:33:33 PM
Okay I have a serious question.
Fugitive Predator. I've heard some people love his look. Heard others hate it. My question is why?
And the mask was one that not terribly fond of personally
It's a Crabator. It's a crustacean looking Predator with broken oversized jaws and a gigantic disproportional bobble head that can hold pencils within his mandible flaps that likely makes the late, great Stan Winston turn in his grave.
(https://i.ibb.co/CmSVLfp/IMG-20191117-093525-1.png)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/42/65/a542656358e13736abc98a296f10deda.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xz0vLbw/IMG-20190321-130005.jpg)
Long live the work of Stan da Man Winston!
https://i.ibb.co/Tkrmkz1/tumblr-nl7pj5-D1n-C1u1vwpho2-500-1.gif
https://i.ibb.co/f0VFBBR/tumblr-or8kgl-RR9l1rp0vkjo1-500.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 03:38:44 PM
These far away shots are not a wise choice to use for this scrutiny, but to zoom in on the Emissary I actually referenced in this thread and you'll see the Emissary is clearly larger.
(https://i.ibb.co/hmVQPny/IMG-20150810-163538-7.png)
But if you look Fugitive ginormous head with mouth folds, you can't even see his neck.
(https://i.ibb.co/CmSVLfp/IMG-20191117-093525-1.png)
But good old Stan.... a neck and proportion!
(https://i.ibb.co/tK82s8k/Screenshot-20200525-113743-Gallery.jpg)
Now the other Emissary, I'm not certain that Crabator was designed to vastly open it's mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/VJGRVpY/Screenshot-20200525-154424-Gallery.jpg)
This is not trick photography making these no-neck heads look big. They're just big.
(https://i.ibb.co/fxjtyZz/IMG-20200108-151004.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 21, 2020, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 21, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
Voodoo is just happy the female Pred is not a Crabator.
Damn straight!
(https://i.ibb.co/PD1pL8q/IMG-20191105-124432.jpg)
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 21, 2020, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 20, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
And check out how her dreads are done in the back...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Hunting-Grounds-PAX-South-26.jpg)
I love this, I can tell its female but its not that different from what we've already seen.
Yes, agreed!
I do appreciate there was a lot of consideration taken with her:
"The design for the female Predator took considerable time as Fox was very heavily involved in process. It involved a great deal of back and forth changing elements, but Illfonic is very proud of what they've achieved with her."
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 10:21:03 PM
Quote from: Shinawi on Nov 05, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
When Scar revealed his face to Lex
#JustSayNo
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/ce/21/8ace21d7219e19074b9910231a634fc0.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/04/ec/d604ecaffad34bc5b57e2c4ac0d0225b.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: Sol on Nov 29, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB.
https://i.imgur.com/Dh0VuYB.png
I didn't say I didn't see any. Yes, when comparing ADI and KNB, again I'll say "I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB." And I still don't. Not like ADI's awkward rolls and pencil holders. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/Dzttb6M/IMG-20201129-144616.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/YQWj8yc/Screenshot-20201129-144309-Gallery.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 26, 2020, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 26, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
ADI are Oscar winners because people have thought they were the best at their craft on different projects. They've created some of the most memorable and effective creature effects of the last 30 years.
They've employed many of the same people who worked at SWS and other major effects houses over the decades.
Forget employed. The ADI founders came from Stan Winston Studio for a year or two before leaving to form their own company.
And I'm aware of their Academy Award for their mixing of practical and cg in Death Becomes Her (fun movie by the way). Awards don't mean too much to me personally. For example, it's a crime that Rob Bottin has never won an Oscar - and it also has factors of your competition that particular year. Fx is a small market.
QuoteI'm not a big fan of a lot of their design choices but they're not amateurs and they're far from incompetent.
Don't turn this into a strawman argument. No one said these words "amateurs" or "incompetent", but I stand behind my feelings that in 2004 in regards to Scar, "Every aspect of Scar to me was inferior, even his paint application, which just screamed out to me during the release of AvP a lower degree of experience and/or talent". I was simply reacting to the work:
(https://i.ibb.co/LvswsVp/IMG-20190916-160417.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/c3G19Vt/IMG-20190623-083756.jpg)
https://i.ibb.co/NLn8D1G/proxy.jpg
And I'm not a big fan of many of their design choices in general either, which is why I feel they'll never be considered the best of the best with the likes of Stan Winston in a hundred years. They won't be on the Mount Rushmore of Practical FX guys in my humble opinion. But it's a small industry, and they have to be talented in such a small industry just to thrive / later survive. Clearly.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 25, 2020, 02:33:27 AM
Is Voodoo the foremost pundit on crabators?
Quote from: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
He claims to be one
Of course! I coined the term!
But yes... no "x" mandibles, straightened brows, broken jaws, they meet and exceed the requirement to be deemed a Crustacean Predator!
Also I can't take these big heads! I lined up both eye pupils on the Stan Winston design and ADI design, then halved it.
(https://i.ibb.co/QvBQZxD/20200524-222048.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/X46bKZv/20200524-222048-1.png)
I miss the days when we had Predator makers that understood proportion!
https://i.ibb.co/25XxnWz/Predator25.jpg
#SayNoToCrabators
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 05, 2020, 04:51:20 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/jTHkbKQ/IMG-20200108-151004.png)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 17, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Nov 16, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
You all know Voodoo will come inspecting for Crabators in your memes.
It's only a matter of time.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/64352324ad3cd1dd024ec53f1fdf2813/tumblr_pahhahuDGy1se0jzho1_500.gif
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 17, 2019, 01:48:24 AM
What are Crabators? is it something like a nickname for Preds?
What??? Have you learned nothing from me??? Have you learned nothing about those horrible, horrible Crustacean Hunters from outer space ???
(https://i.ibb.co/Xz0vLbw/IMG-20190321-130005.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/PD1pL8q/IMG-20191105-124432.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VQMRJGS/IMG-20191117-093525.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 10, 2019, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: Master on Oct 10, 2019, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 09, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
I agree. Some practical fx of the Upgrade would have been nice.
One positive note is, even as a full CG creation, the Upgrade Predator doesn't have the disappointing ADI broken jaw look. It actually reminds me of KNB's work.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/upgrade004.jpg)
Indeed
KNB Predators had mandibles movement, but couldn't close opened mouth.
Yet still a step up from ADI's Crabators I think...
(https://i.ibb.co/px3zkdC/IMG-20190104-134057.jpg)
Vs
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jun 21, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 21, 2019, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 21, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
a conversation between creator and enraged fan
If someone needs an enraged fan to co-host a Shane Black interview I'm here you know.
Same goes with me and ADI. Someone needs to answer for those Crabators!
"Welcome to the AvPGalaxy podcast, venting edition."
https://media.giphy.com/media/76RAzMnxCOWDS/giphy.gif
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptHopefulCanary-size_restricted.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 12, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 12, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
I don't believe it's exactly ADI's fault considering they're just doing as they're told. You can have all the personal dignity in the world but you'd never work again so I don't blame them for going with it.
I do respect that they acknowledge they really only got Wolf right.
However the issue isn't so much ADI as much as it is the directors and producers who at the end of the day are the ones calling the shots. ADI really doesn't have that much say in the matter regarding what the director wants and what makes it to screen. When you're brought on to do FX you're basically a hired gun. Director vision and the money allotted is going to be the biggest impediments, and we know that from Wolf, Fugitive, what little we've seen of the Emissary that they do just fine on Predator FX.
When Alec @ ADI was asked about the broken jaw, slack-jawed look of their Predators compared to the original beloved Stan Winston design, Alec answered the question with a question: Why do the mandibles have to close like they did in the first two movies?
Alec confirmed it was a creative decision, and after three films, with three different directors, you do have to consider the common factor: ADI. Especially when the CG Upgrade Assasin Predator mandible and jaws looked correct in "The Predator", even among his deformed upgraded self, but the ADI Predators in the same movie had the same broken jaw (Crabator) problem. We doubt Shane Black said "try to get the mandibles/jaw muscles right on the cg Predator only, people!" It would seem Black wasn't very invested in it either way.
We've relegated this change in core facial musculature to ADI's "stamp" on the Predator, for better or worse. And most of us feel worse. And I haven't even addressed the paint jobs. :-\
https://66.media.tumblr.com/3ab7516e3eaa79a11367a3fedcc516b6/tumblr_nl7pj5D1nC1u1vwpho2_500.gif
(https://i.ibb.co/1nJKNYz/IMG-20190224-214951.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VQ89nW7/IMG-20190104-094427.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9nnm3zx/IMG-20181206-183911.jpg)
https://media2.giphy.com/media/4olCC4plGHHyM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c87cbf737624149633d62fa
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 25, 2019, 06:19:15 PM
As bad as the plot is, Fugitive and even the Emissary Pred's look a lot more life like than the AVP preds
That's fair. The Fugitive was the best ADI created in my opinion, but the Fugitive, and two Emissaries still feature the gamut of design and to a lesser degree, paint problems:
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
Ironically, I would insist the CG Assasin Upgrade Predator came the closest / was the most faithful of them all in regards to Stan Winston's x mandible design. No slack-jaw, broken jaw bones there.
(https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/image/attached/1047934-ebf0170marketing4kv11009-lr.jpg?itok=qjOHTs6b)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 23, 2019, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 23, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.
Do you think Stan Winston would cringe seeing them? 🤔
Voodoo saying something about "Crabators" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .
It's...
The CRABATORS!
(https://i.ibb.co/9nnm3zx/IMG-20181206-183911.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.
Someone buy this man a beer!!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 04, 2019, 04:57:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 24, 2018, 04:33:48 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 24, 2018, 04:01:06 AM
At no point does the predator 2 animatronic face ever look as bad as scars face in AvP.
His googley eyes when Harrigan is right about to chop his arm off. Looks like something out of the original Mad Max ;D
I never had much problems with the P2 face. I never stopped to think that it looked bad, not like every movie that ever came after it.
Even the Elders look 5 times better than anything else.
While I agree 100% with your feelings regarding the Predators looked bad after "Predator 2", specifically ADI's work in AVP, AVPR and The Predator (however they have shown improvement with each movie), how did you feel about the work done by KNB EFX in "Predators"?
QuoteI noticed something on re-watching the lab scene in The Predator. They make his mandibles act like a crab with little movements, the original never did this, they were just moving when he wanted them to move.
I noticed that too.
Another big problem, in my opinion, is the ADI Predators can no longer close their mouth, so to speak. Here is a shot from Predator, Predator 2, and The Predator featuring all three Yautjas not roaring or speaking. In ADI's design, it can't close it's mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/VQ89nW7/IMG-20190104-094427.jpg)
I think I'm safe in saying the general consensus of Predator fans is non-approving of ADI's changes, but even when it's brought up (much gratitude to The Old One), Alec from ADI dismisses the question.
I think that's enough to get the point across, eh ?
For comparision, I know there's a lot of people who dislike ADI's work on Aliens. Yet, I can hardly remember anyone complaining about it apart from Trash Queen throwing term "Snaliens" couple of times
The Director going for something is not a valid reason to justify a objectively worse design, Shane Black was going for some autism awareness shit when he added that subplot in The Predator, is that subplot good? Does it represent autism well? No and no.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 24, 2021, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again
Voodoo, remember how annoyed you got when I was posting this GIF ?
Spoiler
(https://i.gifer.com/3T42.gif)
in response to your rants about Crabators ? And I've done it maybe half a dozen of times.
Well, now I kinda feel the same about every time you rant about Crabators. It's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.
Spoiler
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 11, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Quote from: BlazinBlue88 on Jul 11, 2020, 08:33:33 PM
Okay I have a serious question.
Fugitive Predator. I've heard some people love his look. Heard others hate it. My question is why?
And the mask was one that not terribly fond of personally
It's a Crabator. It's a crustacean looking Predator with broken oversized jaws and a gigantic disproportional bobble head that can hold pencils within his mandible flaps that likely makes the late, great Stan Winston turn in his grave.
(https://i.ibb.co/CmSVLfp/IMG-20191117-093525-1.png)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/42/65/a542656358e13736abc98a296f10deda.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xz0vLbw/IMG-20190321-130005.jpg)
Long live the work of Stan da Man Winston!
https://i.ibb.co/Tkrmkz1/tumblr-nl7pj5-D1n-C1u1vwpho2-500-1.gif
https://i.ibb.co/f0VFBBR/tumblr-or8kgl-RR9l1rp0vkjo1-500.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 03:38:44 PM
These far away shots are not a wise choice to use for this scrutiny, but to zoom in on the Emissary I actually referenced in this thread and you'll see the Emissary is clearly larger.
(https://i.ibb.co/hmVQPny/IMG-20150810-163538-7.png)
But if you look Fugitive ginormous head with mouth folds, you can't even see his neck.
(https://i.ibb.co/CmSVLfp/IMG-20191117-093525-1.png)
But good old Stan.... a neck and proportion!
(https://i.ibb.co/tK82s8k/Screenshot-20200525-113743-Gallery.jpg)
Now the other Emissary, I'm not certain that Crabator was designed to vastly open it's mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/VJGRVpY/Screenshot-20200525-154424-Gallery.jpg)
This is not trick photography making these no-neck heads look big. They're just big.
(https://i.ibb.co/fxjtyZz/IMG-20200108-151004.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 21, 2020, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 21, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
Voodoo is just happy the female Pred is not a Crabator.
Damn straight!
(https://i.ibb.co/PD1pL8q/IMG-20191105-124432.jpg)
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 21, 2020, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 20, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
And check out how her dreads are done in the back...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Hunting-Grounds-PAX-South-26.jpg)
I love this, I can tell its female but its not that different from what we've already seen.
Yes, agreed!
I do appreciate there was a lot of consideration taken with her:
"The design for the female Predator took considerable time as Fox was very heavily involved in process. It involved a great deal of back and forth changing elements, but Illfonic is very proud of what they've achieved with her."
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 10:21:03 PM
Quote from: Shinawi on Nov 05, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
When Scar revealed his face to Lex
#JustSayNo
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/ce/21/8ace21d7219e19074b9910231a634fc0.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/04/ec/d604ecaffad34bc5b57e2c4ac0d0225b.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: Sol on Nov 29, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB.
https://i.imgur.com/Dh0VuYB.png
I didn't say I didn't see any. Yes, when comparing ADI and KNB, again I'll say "I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB." And I still don't. Not like ADI's awkward rolls and pencil holders. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/Dzttb6M/IMG-20201129-144616.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/YQWj8yc/Screenshot-20201129-144309-Gallery.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 26, 2020, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 26, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
ADI are Oscar winners because people have thought they were the best at their craft on different projects. They've created some of the most memorable and effective creature effects of the last 30 years.
They've employed many of the same people who worked at SWS and other major effects houses over the decades.
Forget employed. The ADI founders came from Stan Winston Studio for a year or two before leaving to form their own company.
And I'm aware of their Academy Award for their mixing of practical and cg in Death Becomes Her (fun movie by the way). Awards don't mean too much to me personally. For example, it's a crime that Rob Bottin has never won an Oscar - and it also has factors of your competition that particular year. Fx is a small market.
QuoteI'm not a big fan of a lot of their design choices but they're not amateurs and they're far from incompetent.
Don't turn this into a strawman argument. No one said these words "amateurs" or "incompetent", but I stand behind my feelings that in 2004 in regards to Scar, "Every aspect of Scar to me was inferior, even his paint application, which just screamed out to me during the release of AvP a lower degree of experience and/or talent". I was simply reacting to the work:
(https://i.ibb.co/LvswsVp/IMG-20190916-160417.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/c3G19Vt/IMG-20190623-083756.jpg)
https://i.ibb.co/NLn8D1G/proxy.jpg
And I'm not a big fan of many of their design choices in general either, which is why I feel they'll never be considered the best of the best with the likes of Stan Winston in a hundred years. They won't be on the Mount Rushmore of Practical FX guys in my humble opinion. But it's a small industry, and they have to be talented in such a small industry just to thrive / later survive. Clearly.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 25, 2020, 02:33:27 AM
Is Voodoo the foremost pundit on crabators?
Quote from: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
He claims to be one
Of course! I coined the term!
But yes... no "x" mandibles, straightened brows, broken jaws, they meet and exceed the requirement to be deemed a Crustacean Predator!
Also I can't take these big heads! I lined up both eye pupils on the Stan Winston design and ADI design, then halved it.
(https://i.ibb.co/QvBQZxD/20200524-222048.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/X46bKZv/20200524-222048-1.png)
I miss the days when we had Predator makers that understood proportion!
https://i.ibb.co/25XxnWz/Predator25.jpg
#SayNoToCrabators
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 05, 2020, 04:51:20 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/jTHkbKQ/IMG-20200108-151004.png)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 17, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Nov 16, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
You all know Voodoo will come inspecting for Crabators in your memes.
It's only a matter of time.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/64352324ad3cd1dd024ec53f1fdf2813/tumblr_pahhahuDGy1se0jzho1_500.gif
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 17, 2019, 01:48:24 AM
What are Crabators? is it something like a nickname for Preds?
What??? Have you learned nothing from me??? Have you learned nothing about those horrible, horrible Crustacean Hunters from outer space ???
(https://i.ibb.co/Xz0vLbw/IMG-20190321-130005.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/PD1pL8q/IMG-20191105-124432.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VQMRJGS/IMG-20191117-093525.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 10, 2019, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: Master on Oct 10, 2019, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 09, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
I agree. Some practical fx of the Upgrade would have been nice.
One positive note is, even as a full CG creation, the Upgrade Predator doesn't have the disappointing ADI broken jaw look. It actually reminds me of KNB's work.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/upgrade004.jpg)
Indeed
KNB Predators had mandibles movement, but couldn't close opened mouth.
Yet still a step up from ADI's Crabators I think...
(https://i.ibb.co/px3zkdC/IMG-20190104-134057.jpg)
Vs
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jun 21, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 21, 2019, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 21, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
a conversation between creator and enraged fan
If someone needs an enraged fan to co-host a Shane Black interview I'm here you know.
Same goes with me and ADI. Someone needs to answer for those Crabators!
"Welcome to the AvPGalaxy podcast, venting edition."
https://media.giphy.com/media/76RAzMnxCOWDS/giphy.gif
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptHopefulCanary-size_restricted.gif
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 12, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 12, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
I don't believe it's exactly ADI's fault considering they're just doing as they're told. You can have all the personal dignity in the world but you'd never work again so I don't blame them for going with it.
I do respect that they acknowledge they really only got Wolf right.
However the issue isn't so much ADI as much as it is the directors and producers who at the end of the day are the ones calling the shots. ADI really doesn't have that much say in the matter regarding what the director wants and what makes it to screen. When you're brought on to do FX you're basically a hired gun. Director vision and the money allotted is going to be the biggest impediments, and we know that from Wolf, Fugitive, what little we've seen of the Emissary that they do just fine on Predator FX.
When Alec @ ADI was asked about the broken jaw, slack-jawed look of their Predators compared to the original beloved Stan Winston design, Alec answered the question with a question: Why do the mandibles have to close like they did in the first two movies?
Alec confirmed it was a creative decision, and after three films, with three different directors, you do have to consider the common factor: ADI. Especially when the CG Upgrade Assasin Predator mandible and jaws looked correct in "The Predator", even among his deformed upgraded self, but the ADI Predators in the same movie had the same broken jaw (Crabator) problem. We doubt Shane Black said "try to get the mandibles/jaw muscles right on the cg Predator only, people!" It would seem Black wasn't very invested in it either way.
We've relegated this change in core facial musculature to ADI's "stamp" on the Predator, for better or worse. And most of us feel worse. And I haven't even addressed the paint jobs. :-\
https://66.media.tumblr.com/3ab7516e3eaa79a11367a3fedcc516b6/tumblr_nl7pj5D1nC1u1vwpho2_500.gif
(https://i.ibb.co/1nJKNYz/IMG-20190224-214951.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VQ89nW7/IMG-20190104-094427.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9nnm3zx/IMG-20181206-183911.jpg)
https://media2.giphy.com/media/4olCC4plGHHyM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c87cbf737624149633d62fa
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 25, 2019, 06:19:15 PM
As bad as the plot is, Fugitive and even the Emissary Pred's look a lot more life like than the AVP preds
That's fair. The Fugitive was the best ADI created in my opinion, but the Fugitive, and two Emissaries still feature the gamut of design and to a lesser degree, paint problems:
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZbvhfD/IMG-20190225-140941.jpg)
Ironically, I would insist the CG Assasin Upgrade Predator came the closest / was the most faithful of them all in regards to Stan Winston's x mandible design. No slack-jaw, broken jaw bones there.
(https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/image/attached/1047934-ebf0170marketing4kv11009-lr.jpg?itok=qjOHTs6b)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 23, 2019, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 23, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.
Do you think Stan Winston would cringe seeing them? 🤔
Voodoo saying something about "Crabators" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .
It's...
The CRABATORS!
(https://i.ibb.co/9nnm3zx/IMG-20181206-183911.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.
Someone buy this man a beer!!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 04, 2019, 04:57:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 24, 2018, 04:33:48 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 24, 2018, 04:01:06 AM
At no point does the predator 2 animatronic face ever look as bad as scars face in AvP.
His googley eyes when Harrigan is right about to chop his arm off. Looks like something out of the original Mad Max ;D
I never had much problems with the P2 face. I never stopped to think that it looked bad, not like every movie that ever came after it.
Even the Elders look 5 times better than anything else.
While I agree 100% with your feelings regarding the Predators looked bad after "Predator 2", specifically ADI's work in AVP, AVPR and The Predator (however they have shown improvement with each movie), how did you feel about the work done by KNB EFX in "Predators"?
QuoteI noticed something on re-watching the lab scene in The Predator. They make his mandibles act like a crab with little movements, the original never did this, they were just moving when he wanted them to move.
I noticed that too.
Another big problem, in my opinion, is the ADI Predators can no longer close their mouth, so to speak. Here is a shot from Predator, Predator 2, and The Predator featuring all three Yautjas not roaring or speaking. In ADI's design, it can't close it's mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/VQ89nW7/IMG-20190104-094427.jpg)
I think I'm safe in saying the general consensus of Predator fans is non-approving of ADI's changes, but even when it's brought up (much gratitude to The Old One), Alec from ADI dismisses the question.
I think that's enough to get the point across, eh ?
For comparision, I know there's a lot of people who dislike ADI's work on Aliens. Yet, I can hardly remember anyone complaining about it apart from Trash Queen throwing term "Snaliens" cople of times
Kradan, I guess this is somehow an attempt to embarrass me, that you caught me talking about it 14 times since January of 2019, and more than half of the time I didn't even bring up the issue but responded to it. Of course, you conveniently left out the times you brought it up. Becareful with this road your trying to take my friend.
Ill try this one more time with you...
ACM, Randy Pitchford, Crabators, egg barfing, egg morphing, Alien3 eggs, Alien skulls, AvPR can't see sh*t, Predator boobs, the murial, hybridization, City Hunters mandible problems, Predator autism, The Newborn, domes, Ridley's prequels, is AvP canon, David created the Xenomorph, etc. etc. etc. - This all gets repeated over and over again in these forums and increases when it becomes relevant. And with a new Predator film coming, what fans want from the FX house becomes relevant. I did not even create the video, or start this thread, or contribute to the conversation until Thread Page #2 and you're on my case about it.
You don't seem to count how many times you personally trash AvPR and the Predalien, things I am fans of, because that would make your point moot. Just knock it off.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:41:40 PM
It's not when you're telling me you said something different.
fam that's literally a strawman though
Cameron intended EVERYTHING about the Queen in Aliens '86, but I doubt he went on and specifically mentioned the neck hole we see in the hive scenes. Again, we don't know the full story -- the membrane jowls could be a result of what I said, and this is very likely based on the facts, or even something intentional. We don't know. But that kinda jowl has been there since P2 and complaining about them specifically on the ADI preds is... wait for it... biased
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:41:40 PM
I've seen all the bits videos too and I don't buy into the blame is environment versus execution
here you go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4pXjb3iRM4&ab_channel=studioADI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q9V_1aXe2w&t=8s&ab_channel=studioADI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4gyWayQ8o&ab_channel=HollywoodArchive
again, this is during filming and the membranes looked tighter just out of the mould - could be intentional, could be unintentional. But they do show these "jowls" prominently, so I guess they were fine with it. Since apparently these jowls are so important, next time I stumble upon one of the ADI people I'm gonna ask them this very question
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:41:40 PM
Yet that isn't my logic
re-read what you wrote then fam
your inherent bias against ADI is influencing the objectivity of your statements however
that same bias is the reason this conversation really is going nowhere
video still bull lmao
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 06:44:59 PM
Kradan, I guess this is somehow an attempt to embarrass me, that you caught me talking about it 14 times since January of 2019, and more than half of the time I didn't even bring up the issue but responded to it. Of course, you conveniently left out the times you brought it up. Becareful with this road your trying to take my friend.
Ill try this one more time with you...
ACM, Randy Pitchford, Crabators, egg barfing, egg morphing, Alien3 eggs, Alien skulls, AvPR can't see sh*t, Predator boobs, the murial, hybridization, City Hunters mandible problems, Predator autism, The Newborn, domes, Ridley's prequels, is AvP canon, David created the Xenomorph, etc. etc. etc. - This all gets repeated over and over again in these forums and increases when it becomes relevant. And with a new Predator film coming, what fans want from the FX house becomes relevant. I did not even create the video, or start this thread, or contribute to the conversation until Thread Page #2 and you're on my case about it.
You don't seem to count how many times you personally trash AvPR and the Predalien, things I am fans of, because that would make your point moot. Just knock it off.
No, I'm not trying to embarrass you. No need for that patronising tone. Omega pointed out that argument gets repeated over and over and I tried to show what he was talking about .
QuoteI'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again
QuoteIt's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.
To be honest, I was going with posts that have all the terrible shots of ADI Preds you put in for visibility's sake
In terms of all the subjects you listed above that get repeated - well, yeah you're right. I'm not a fan of these things being repeated either
I don't construct elaborate posts with images and #This and #That about how awful Requiem is - it usually goes to the extent of several sentences. And I don't recall ever trashing Requiem's Predalien. I am for once OK with the design and not even against dreadlocks. I guess, you're talking about egg-barfing ? Well, sorry not a fan
And I don't keep count how many times you trashed The Predator
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 24, 2021, 06:56:23 PM
Am for once OK with the design and not even against freadlocks
What's a freadlock fam
Sorry, was typing fast. Dreadlock
Dread man, truly dread.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 06:53:07 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:41:40 PM
Yet that isn't my logic
re-read what you wrote then fam
your inherent bias against ADI is influencing the objectivity of your statements however
that same bias is the reason this conversation really is going nowhere
Yet that bias? of mine against ADI somehow really likes ADI's Alien Queen and especially their PredAlien and just is very unhappy with their Predator design execution.? And if I wasn't biased, I would favor the ADI Predators too? (facepalm)
I agree. We're going nowhere. We agree to disagree! Cheers!
Quote
video still bull lmao
Time to move to YouTube and tell all the people liking the video I guess... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 24, 2021, 06:56:23 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 06:44:59 PM
Kradan, I guess this is somehow an attempt to embarrass me, that you caught me talking about it 14 times since January of 2019, and more than half of the time I didn't even bring up the issue but responded to it. Of course, you conveniently left out the times you brought it up. Becareful with this road your trying to take my friend.
Ill try this one more time with you...
ACM, Randy Pitchford, Crabators, egg barfing, egg morphing, Alien3 eggs, Alien skulls, AvPR can't see sh*t, Predator boobs, the murial, hybridization, City Hunters mandible problems, Predator autism, The Newborn, domes, Ridley's prequels, is AvP canon, David created the Xenomorph, etc. etc. etc. - This all gets repeated over and over again in these forums and increases when it becomes relevant. And with a new Predator film coming, what fans want from the FX house becomes relevant. I did not even create the video, or start this thread, or contribute to the conversation until Thread Page #2 and you're on my case about it.
You don't seem to count how many times you personally trash AvPR and the Predalien, things I am fans of, because that would make your point moot. Just knock it off.
No, I'm not trying to embarrass you. Omega pointed out that argument gets repeated over and over and I tried to show what he was talking about .
Yes, I saw the 14 quotes in two years.
QuoteQuoteIt's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.
To be honest, I was going with posts that have all the terrible shots of ADI Preds you put in for visibility's sake
In terms of all the subjects you listed above that get repeated - well, yeah you're right. I'm not a fan of these things being repeated either
I don't construct elaborate posts with images and #This and #That about how awful Requiem is - it usually goes to the extent of several sentences. And I don't recall ever trashing Requiem's Predalien. I am for once OK with the design and not even against dreadlocks
And I don't keep count how many times you trashed The Predator
I've also been positive of The Predator that it can be a fun popcorn film with a few beers. But a lot of people here trash The Predator all the time, over and over again.
So you're making my point.All I can recommend Kradan is grow a thicker skin, or start complaining about everything that gets repeated so you don't appear hypocritical when you only complain about repetition... only when it's with things you don't agree.
In other words, knock it off please.
Rightio. This one got a little under my skin, but I didn't want to delete because there's interesting discussion going off around some of this shade.
First of all, agree or disagree with the point, it's something that a lot of people agree with as evidenced by the views, comments and likes on the video itself. This thread was specifically about a video talking about those issues, so to come in here and complain about it being talked about is unfair.
And again, disagree or agree with the subject, I'm also not big on members presuming to tell other members (or site staff) off for bringing up something they're passionate about, particularly when it's relevant to the conversation at hand, and they didn't start it. There are certain things that are going to get addressed frequently and brought back up with new voices enter the conversation. It's starting to feel particularly targetted and I don't like to see that.
I also don't want to see this passive aggressive stuff going off either. If you're tired of the topic, don't get involved or don't get drawn into it. Let's remember to take steps back before we get involved in something that we're passionate about. We're all fans here, we're not enemies to each other.
But like I said, there's interesting information in here too. So let's get back to it without resorting to poor forms of discourse.
Someone want to reply to my post yet? lol
"Sizzy! Why are you not active on the forums/fan groups anymore???"
Me: *gestures vaguely*
XD
Yeah, I'm not much for highly bias and opinionated YT clickbait (and it's important not to take rando youtubers opinions as 'fact' here). Other than that, I think Omegamorph about covered my feelings on the subject.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 24, 2021, 08:34:05 PM
Someone want to reply to my post yet? lol
Sorry! As usual it was clear and concise and of course, I quite enjoyed it. ;D
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 24, 2021, 08:46:00 PM
"Sizzy! Why are you not active on the forums/fan groups anymore???"
Me: *gestures vaguely*
XD
I assumed you were just too busy canoodling with that fun and charismatic mate of yours! :)
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 24, 2021, 08:46:00 PM
I think Omegamorph about covered my feelings on the subject.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l378cQ46L0oznCzvi/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 25, 2021, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 24, 2021, 08:46:00 PM
I think Omegamorph about covered my feelings on the subject.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l378cQ46L0oznCzvi/giphy.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/8e51290e70aac01aa377c021562a1f4c/tumblr_oqnoorqeST1s9v5xbo1_500.gifv)
"Listen here you lil' shit if ADI f**k up the face AGAIN I'm holding you personally responsible."
:laugh:
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
"Listen here you lil' shit if ADI f**k up the face AGAIN I'm holding you personally responsible."
they never f**ked up anything lmao
I'm not too fond of the AvP versions but I f**king LOVE fugitive
ADI FUGITIVE LOVE BIAS! ;)
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 25, 2021, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 24, 2021, 08:46:00 PM
I think Omegamorph about covered my feelings on the subject.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l378cQ46L0oznCzvi/giphy.gif)
Considering the topic, I think it would have been more apropo to use an ADI Predator gif, I think! :)
(https://i.ibb.co/DpqPJ4y/ac7f5162b52de69b504f532c815ac10f.gif)
Fugitive's mandible arrangement's an absolute mess. I can dig nearly everything else, but like I said before here, compare the practical Fugitive to the CGI Fugitive.
Do you mean when The Fugitive is on the operating table and his bottom mandibles are together in that upright position?
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 24, 2021, 02:54:04 PM
Got to agree to disagree on this one, the ADI Predator faces look not... good at all to be honest, even with their intentions and the design directions and it's not because it's another take.
It's because they fail at their goal fundamentally, in comparison to past successes in Predator and Predator 2, although we can see this behind the scenes in nearly every film...
It's actually most evident in The Predator of all places, when we get a direct comparison with CGI versions of the Fugitive and of course Upgrade only exists in that, but during the holographic scene with other Predators standing around one being injected on a table- we see the former's design but without skin folds behind the mandibles- with the mandibles actually "closing properly" and with a overall head shape more in proportion with the original film and the Predator bible's depiction.
So it's clear that's what ADI's going for, or what the director asked for as we can see it's consistent with the behind the scenes design, and actually it's achieved on the CGI side of things but on the practical side of things anyone since Stan Winston can't quite manage it for unknown reasons.
I don't have any photos to demonstrate this as I don't own the film, but I think you all get what I mean, and know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I see what you mean. They often hang in a real weird resting place. There used to be a sensation of a Predator needing to open his mouth really, really wide to achieve even close to that look. But now they often hang like broken pieces in various scenes.
(https://i.ibb.co/g9Vk8tj/Screenshot-20210225-115109-Gallery.png)
Imo I do think The Fugitive had the best paint application out of the ADI Predators though, so I've seen improvement there from film to film to film. But some how their head size has grown from film to film to film as well, messing with proportion. Still, all being said, from what I could tell, the Fugitive is much better overall than what I've been able to ascertain of the Emissary Predators.
(https://i.ibb.co/QK6dmcJ/e7d6569f873727ce78815270e1606126-12.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/fFc49pX/emissary.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VhQRDx/20200108-151455.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/Qpy5Y3B/predator-evolution-11-701x394.png)
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 25, 2021, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2021, 04:22:34 PM
ADI FUGITIVE LOVE BIAS! ;)
ADI hate bias ?
There both just as silly to say, that was my point. However, even though we disagree, I respect your opinion my friend, as with anyone here. We're all team Alien and Predator at the end of the day. :)
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 04:30:00 PM
Fugitive's mandibles are an absolute mess.
your tastes are an absolute mess gurl
look at this absolute unit(https://i.imgur.com/QFTuikX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5shbccy.jpg)
I do agree Fugitive always looks best from the side.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 25, 2021, 06:12:37 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 04:30:00 PM
Fugitive's mandibles are an absolute mess.
your tastes are an absolute mess gurl
Let's be sure to be nice brother! :)
He's definitely still my favourite Predator since the Stan Winston created ones, and he looks superb when snarling, but when not the mouth just looks awful. I love everything about the body, actually don't find him unproportionate apart from perhaps the head neck connection itself and I actually like the fluorescent eyes.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2021, 06:14:38 PM
Let's be sure to be nice brother! :)
Lucy and I are bffs lel quit with the pass-aggro attitude fam
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 06:42:18 PM
I actually like the fluorescent eyes.
me too they're different just wish the cg pupils were better integrated
I hope NOBODY's being passive aggressive.
Any one of the three of us here.
Genuinely thank you though for the concern VM and OM. ❤️
Not gonna reply to any one specific person here. Just to say there's a lot of mixing up of aesthetic preference and practical implications going on.
Aesthetically, I think P1+2 have the best Predator designs. While there are aspects of the later films that I like, the overall execution of their faces particularly has always felt off to me. And you can see a clear change as the years have gone by. But you can't really make arguments about the jaw structure of a fictional creature from any kind of scientific standpoint as has been demonstrated already by SiL's point on dog breeds. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
The video linked in the OP actually showed up on my YouTube feed a few days ago and I watched it then. I found myself agreeing with the sentiment behind the video, but like a lot of YouTube critics/video essay guys I think he falls into the trap of conflating his subjective opinion with some sort of objective truth he can actually argue about successfully. And he can't, relying on his own assumptions and false information at various points to underpin his argument.
I think it would be a lot more beneficial if people gave up on talking about 'why xyz is objectively the best/worst thing to ever happen to the fandom' and instead exploring their own interpretations of those things. Why do you feel a certain way about Predator face designs? What are your thoughts? Share your opinions as what they are: Opinion. Don't try to dress it up in some pseudo-factual disguise and force your views on others. It will never produce the desired result and you will just end up irritating one-another.
So ultimately, while I feel like the creator of the video is probably on my wavelength from an aesthetic sensibility standpoint, I can't agree at all with the way he decided to go about expressing that idea.
If I were to boil my views down to a relatively snappy summary of Predator designs it would be this:
The original Predator designs in the first two movies had a slim, athletic look that helped make them convincing in their role as fast and powerful killers from an aggressive, ritualistic culture. The texture and the design of their bodies helped sell them to me as genuine extraterrestrials with functional anatomy.
In more recent portrayals, the designs have changed somewhat. They're still immediately identifiable as the same species, but proportions and facial details have drifted away from the original concept. The proportional changes have detracted from the sleek, athletic silhouette the creature is associated with in my mind. Meanwhile the changes to the structure of their faces gives me less a sense of strange alien anatomy, and more a sense of looking at a costume, designed by human hands. The way the designs have been done more recently just doesn't feel as convincing or 'alive' to me.
QuoteI think it would be a lot more beneficial if people gave up on talking about 'why xyz is objectively the best/worst thing to ever happen to the fandom' and instead exploring their own interpretations of those things. Why do you feel a certain way about Predator face designs? What are your thoughts? Share your opinions as what they are: Opinion. Don't try to dress it up in some pseudo-factual disguise and force your views on others. It will never produce the desired result and you will just end up irritating one-another.
A thousand times this.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Feb 25, 2021, 06:54:07 PM
[...]
Best post in the thread fam, thank you. Agreed wholeheartedly
P2 best pred always
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/e390ce9bdcae9911dc6d03f6b1969f50/tumblr_oyjrpdGNlu1sdzbujo1_500.gifv)
I'll say that fugitive does a super swell job too though... and while scar does feel more human (by director dictation) and wolf is just plain weird I've kind of grown fond of them over the years. But yes, P1/P2 are the top notch of things
I like aspects of most of the movie designs. Haven't actually watched The Predator and probably won't based on what I've heard about it, but I really like some of the design work on the Predator armour. Same goes for Wolf, the Super Predators, even the AvP quarterbacks. They all bring cool ideas to the table, but there's always elements that bring them down for me and it's usually the construction of the faces and the bodily proportions.
The Super Predators are a bit of an exception since they are supposed to be a different subspecies and I can forgive a lot of the differences based on that. My issue with them more comes down to the texture work on their skins. They have much more overtly reptilian scales and those weird sections of the head that look like exposed muscle. To me that sticks out because it makes them look like an entirely different type of animal to the (relatively) more smooth-skinned Predators. Like reptiles and mammals. Which makes it harder for me to accept them as related-but-different. I think the intention was their relationship be something like homo sapiens and neanderthals but the execution of the designs makes it hard for me to accept that.
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
We already got them.
Eighty-Five: Making reasonable, well thought out, and considerate posts about a hotly debated subject
Me:
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/008/250/e05.jpg)
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 25, 2021, 04:14:22 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
"Listen here you lil' shit if ADI f**k up the face AGAIN I'm holding you personally responsible."
they never f**ked up anything lmao
I'm not too fond of the AvP versions but I f**king LOVE fugitive
(Me drinking up all that good Studio ADI shit.)(https://64.media.tumblr.com/49cb7315d5ec1821b40bb974399d848c/tumblr_pyayqrQd1z1wtavz1o1_540.gifv)
They have never f**ked up. Ever. In their life.
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 26, 2021, 01:57:59 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 25, 2021, 04:14:22 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
"Listen here you lil' shit if ADI f**k up the face AGAIN I'm holding you personally responsible."
they never f**ked up anything lmao
I'm not too fond of the AvP versions but I f**king LOVE fugitive
(Me drinking up all that good Studio ADI shit.)
https://64.media.tumblr.com/49cb7315d5ec1821b40bb974399d848c/tumblr_pyayqrQd1z1wtavz1o1_540.gifv
They have never f**ked up. Ever. In their life.
Ever? Impressive!
Quote from: SizzyBubbles on Feb 26, 2021, 01:57:59 AM
(Me drinking up all that good Studio ADI shit.)
I underlined "shit". ;D
Spoiler
Sorry Sizzy, but I just couldn't resist. You teed that one up so perfectly!
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 25, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
We already got them.
Yeah I think most were pretty satisfied with what we got in Covenant.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 25, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
We already got them.
Yeah I think most were pretty satisfied with what we got in Covenant.
I personally hate the stick bug we got in that movie
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 26, 2021, 03:35:13 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 25, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
We already got them.
Yeah I think most were pretty satisfied with what we got in Covenant.
I personally hate the stick bug we got in that movie
(https://s4.gifyu.com/images/4zj7898b81527f429660ff.gif)
The legs and oversized jaw tho'
Isolation's Xeno is a really good take on classic big chap, although I feel that the legs are a bit too long, same for the tail, Covenant Alien's problem is that it has no biomechanical details (intentional or not), EXTREMELY skinny, looks like it's made out of wood, and just looks like a generic organic alien, which even Adi did better by improving upon the Ressurection design, lol
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 26, 2021, 03:52:21 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 26, 2021, 03:35:13 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 25, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
We already got them.
Yeah I think most were pretty satisfied with what we got in Covenant.
I personally hate the stick bug we got in that movie
https://s4.gifyu.com/images/4zj7898b81527f429660ff.gif
Stompy has the proper textures, and the lankiness (beyond what your average Big Chap would have) is really just in the leg extension, fingers and comedically snaggy tail. It's acceptable.
But I'm going to be real with you all, I don't like the Covvie Alien 90% of the time.
Ultimately it gets off on the same "intent" clause as the Rez Aliens, and it moves nicely, but that doesn't make it satisfying in the way I want from an Alien design.
Yep Covenant Aliens didn't do much for me. I didn't find them terrible either. Just bland.
stick to the topic folks if you want we can open a similar thread in the Alien section
so that I may suck some thick ADI juice there too
Yeah I didn't really care for the design of David's imitation-Xenomorphs in Covenant either. The 'made of wood' sentiment is apt. It's honestly kinda shocking that somebody who once gave Giger's design so much credit (as Ridley Scott did) seemingly cared so little about accurately replicating it. It was less offensive than the AvP designs I guess, but still falls well short for me.
I miss biomechanical aliens. We always get fleshy-lookin things nowadays. It's less alien and more familiar as a design motif, which worked for Resurrection's hybrid aliens but that's about it imo.
I do find it kinda funny that this Predator issue gets so much discussion nowadays when Aliens have changed far more drastically in design since their first appearance.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 26, 2021, 11:49:02 AM
stick to the topic folks if you want we can open a similar thread in the Alien section
so that I may suck some thick ADI juice there too
Yep ADI preds didn't do much for me. I didn't find them terrible either. Just bland.
Better ? ;)
brb Imma have sex with fugitive
him and his... sultry... luscious... pecs...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
To be fair, I do like wolf and fugitive's body and armour. I f**king love Wolf's mask, Fugitive's a meh for me.
Yeah, I'm of the same mindset. ADI didn't handle Fugitive's armor, but they did handle Wolf soup to nuts if my recollection is correct, and with his mask on, I too think Wolf's looking pretty darn good.
But dare I say it, I think I prefer Fugitive's bio-mask to Wolf's?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 25, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
The real question is: when are we getting a demand better Aliens banner Voodoo??
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 25, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
We already got them.
Yeah I think most were pretty satisfied with what we got in Covenant.
Reading the responses, I believe I may have.....
misjudged.
:laugh:
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/4988bf571adbd4edc5df437a8530eba4/tenor.gif)
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 26, 2021, 03:35:16 AM
I personally hate the stick bug we got in that movie
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/JrkQ79ZpfZdn5iOwlr/giphy.gif)
(https://fassymioamorhome.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/04.gif?w=349)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/34b1b21e743ae8405af976a825eaf8ee/tumblr_oukleb8wE91t4wjzko5_r1_540.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/ac88906faf12a3f8f017d22e4b7bb69f/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o8_400.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/8af32c53a745541c99b05f11badaf4e6/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo2_540.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/bd13510ae18ac3ba3da22fc571578302/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o2_r1_400.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/98e3e4f4d05b5023a2d1ea1e894af3af/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo6_540.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/22953827d1d670a8d528f262773e41fc/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o3_400.gif)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/aa4f32fa05846ca0b7f5fd957d6b9dec/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo4_540.gif)
Me thinks she likes it!
And that stick bug gif made me lol :laugh:
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 12:35:55 PM
But dare I say it, I think I prefer Fugitive's bio-mask to Wolf's?
Fugitive's is the first biomask that I disliked from the outset. I get individualisation, but it felt too small for the head, and the detailing felt, arbitrary, unnecessarily complex, and completely out of line with what was established earlier.
Wolf's mask felt very in keeping with the aesthetic established by SWS in the second film.
It is very different from the aesthetic we've gotten used to. But given how different some of the background Predators have been, particularly in the Lost Tribe it didn't bother me too much.
Maybe Fugitive is just the Predator equivalent of a hypebeast.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 26, 2021, 02:15:40 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2021, 12:35:55 PM
But dare I say it, I think I prefer Fugitive's bio-mask to Wolf's?
Fugitive's is the first biomask that I disliked from the outset. I get individualisation, but it felt too small for the head, and the detailing felt, arbitrary, unnecessarily complex, and completely out of line with what was established earlier.
Wolf's mask felt very in keeping with the aesthetic established by SWS in the second film.
I can't argue with Wolf's bio-mask fitting with the established aesthetic, that's for sure.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a6/22/c6/a622c6ae60c9aa68009524e3090012d1.jpg)
And normally I prefer my Predators to have advanced, yet ancient looking technology, but I imagined the Fugitive's bio-mask seems more designed for deep space travel and less for a ceremonial hunt. Of course it's all head canon. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/YdYxVPn/IMG-20190120-080117.jpg)
And full disclosure, sometimes starkly different looking bio-masks just really appeal to me. Like in this Brian Thies art below. I just love it.
(https://i.ibb.co/RPHP4d4/05.jpg)
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Feb 26, 2021, 11:54:32 AM
I miss biomechanical aliens.
Bingo.
QuoteI do find it kinda funny that this Predator issue gets so much discussion nowadays when Aliens have changed far more drastically in design since their first appearance.
Mostly coz the Alien debate has been done to death, above and beyond this one.
I appreciate Fugitives armor design for resembling the Killer Yautja from Three World War
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746039326466637885/815006479932850206/Screenshot_20210226-194431858_1.jpg)
I'm on mobile en so excuse the badly cropped Discord print 😅
Nice video
I miss biomechanical Aliens also but, I'm not as starving for them, because of Alien Isolation and the way it caused a huge explosion of the use of H.R Giger's original design in everything but film.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Feb 25, 2021, 06:54:07 PM
Not gonna reply to any one specific person here. Just to say there's a lot of mixing up of aesthetic preference and practical implications going on.
Aesthetically, I think P1+2 have the best Predator designs. While there are aspects of the later films that I like, the overall execution of their faces particularly has always felt off to me. And you can see a clear change as the years have gone by. But you can't really make arguments about the jaw structure of a fictional creature from any kind of scientific standpoint as has been demonstrated already by SiL's point on dog breeds. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
The video linked in the OP actually showed up on my YouTube feed a few days ago and I watched it then. I found myself agreeing with the sentiment behind the video, but like a lot of YouTube critics/video essay guys I think he falls into the trap of conflating his subjective opinion with some sort of objective truth he can actually argue about successfully. And he can't, relying on his own assumptions and false information at various points to underpin his argument.
I think it would be a lot more beneficial if people gave up on talking about 'why xyz is objectively the best/worst thing to ever happen to the fandom' and instead exploring their own interpretations of those things. Why do you feel a certain way about Predator face designs? What are your thoughts? Share your opinions as what they are: Opinion. Don't try to dress it up in some pseudo-factual disguise and force your views on others. It will never produce the desired result and you will just end up irritating one-another.
So ultimately, while I feel like the creator of the video is probably on my wavelength from an aesthetic sensibility standpoint, I can't agree at all with the way he decided to go about expressing that idea.
If I were to boil my views down to a relatively snappy summary of Predator designs it would be this:
The original Predator designs in the first two movies had a slim, athletic look that helped make them convincing in their role as fast and powerful killers from an aggressive, ritualistic culture. The texture and the design of their bodies helped sell them to me as genuine extraterrestrials with functional anatomy.
In more recent portrayals, the designs have changed somewhat. They're still immediately identifiable as the same species, but proportions and facial details have drifted away from the original concept. The proportional changes have detracted from the sleek, athletic silhouette the creature is associated with in my mind. Meanwhile the changes to the structure of their faces gives me less a sense of strange alien anatomy, and more a sense of looking at a costume, designed by human hands. The way the designs have been done more recently just doesn't feel as convincing or 'alive' to me.
Very good post. I like the idea of the predator being a hunter who hunts for sport and kill for pleasure, is a sore loser, and always takes calculated risks so he's supposed to win eventually, in the first two movies the main predators are not fair, but in the same time they're not just psychos, and their design reflect that.I wanna see this kind back on screen. That concept made the franchise popular ,I believe the majority want it when, you check out the polls and various websites discussions.
A lot of Predator superfans are really into the 'Yautja' concept with strict codes of honor and such. More like samurai than big game hunters. I don't think that really jives with the original movies tho.
The Predators in 1&2 don't fight fair. They hide out of sight, invisible to their prey, killing them from afar with advanced weaponry that doesn't even require aiming. In the first movie the Predator only goes hand-to-hand when he isolates a victim and they can't really threaten him. The hunter in P2 is a little more bold but he still favours cloaking for his attacks and still greatly outclasses his victims. They're also sore losers, turning to self-destruct when they think they're about to lose, trying to take their foes down with them rather than take the L.
The honor code idea only really relates to not killing unarmed/pregnant/sick enemies and awarding Harrigan the pistol. This isn't necessarily because it would be un-chivalrous imo though. It's because there's no challenge in the kills. If you're at max level in an rpg, do you go back to the starter zone and kill level 1 rats that can't even chip at your HP bar, let alone maybe get lucky and actually wound/kill you? I don't, because it's boring. No risk at all. Risk is what makes the hunt exciting.
As for the pistol, yeah they show a kind of begrudging respect but it seems kinda like it's specific to that one elder, because no other pred to this point had any qualms about turning their death into a murder-suicide when they thought their foes might actually defeat them. Also worth pointing out they don't exactly give Harrigan a chance to get clear before they launch their ship and very nearly crush/incinerate him.
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
Gosh you just absolutely got it.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 26, 2021, 01:45:34 PM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Feb 26, 2021, 03:35:16 AM
I personally hate the stick bug we got in that movie
https://media0.giphy.com/media/JrkQ79ZpfZdn5iOwlr/giphy.gif
https://fassymioamorhome.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/04.gif?w=349
https://64.media.tumblr.com/34b1b21e743ae8405af976a825eaf8ee/tumblr_oukleb8wE91t4wjzko5_r1_540.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/ac88906faf12a3f8f017d22e4b7bb69f/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o8_400.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/8af32c53a745541c99b05f11badaf4e6/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo2_540.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/bd13510ae18ac3ba3da22fc571578302/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o2_r1_400.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/98e3e4f4d05b5023a2d1ea1e894af3af/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo6_540.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/22953827d1d670a8d528f262773e41fc/tumblr_pkiqtrvocF1tdkro1o3_400.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/aa4f32fa05846ca0b7f5fd957d6b9dec/tumblr_pk0w74sGLo1uv4kvuo4_540.gif
If only it was the Classic design in a movie that didn't try to explain it's origin..
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 02:52:41 AM
A lot of Predator superfans are really into the 'Yautja' concept with strict codes of honor and such. More like samurai than big game hunters. I don't think that really jives with the original movies tho.
The Predators in 1&2 don't fight fair. They hide out of sight, invisible to their prey, killing them from afar with advanced weaponry that doesn't even require aiming. In the first movie the Predator only goes hand-to-hand when he isolates a victim and they can't really threaten him. The hunter in P2 is a little more bold but he still favours cloaking for his attacks and still greatly outclasses his victims. They're also sore losers, turning to self-destruct when they think they're about to lose, trying to take their foes down with them rather than take the L.
The honor code idea only really relates to not killing unarmed/pregnant/sick enemies and awarding Harrigan the pistol. This isn't necessarily because it would be un-chivalrous imo though. It's because there's no challenge in the kills. If you're at max level in an rpg, do you go back to the starter zone and kill level 1 rats that can't even chip at your HP bar, let alone maybe get lucky and actually wound/kill you? I don't, because it's boring. No risk at all. Risk is what makes the hunt exciting.
As for the pistol, yeah they show a kind of begrudging respect but it seems kinda like it's specific to that one elder, because no other pred to this point had any qualms about turning their death into a murder-suicide when they thought their foes might actually defeat them. Also worth pointing out they don't exactly give Harrigan a chance to get clear before they launch their ship and very nearly crush/incinerate him.
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
I kinda blame the AvP extended universe stuff for this, they made the Predators look like honorable space samurai that just happen to be dicks, instead of tribes of space warriors that see less advanced species as game
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 02:52:41 AM
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
A man after my own heart. I dislike the Yautja concept too. They're sadistic big game hunters that are after a big thrill and have some small rules to follow - but outside of Anderson's AvP, I really don't think anything they show in the movie's could be considered honorable.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Feb 26, 2021, 10:27:50 AM
But I'm going to be real with you all, I don't like the Covvie Alien 90% of the time.
Ultimately it gets off on the same "intent" clause as the Rez Aliens, and it moves nicely, but that doesn't make it satisfying in the way I want from an Alien design.
While I still miss the biomechanical detailing from the original design, I do actually quite like Covenant's Alien. There's something about the proportions that I think work really well. And that scene where it walks upright into the terraforming bay is just so damn creepy IMHO.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 01, 2021, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 02:52:41 AM
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
A man after my own heart. I dislike the Yautja concept too. They're sadistic big game hunters that are after a big thrill and have some small rules to follow - but outside of Anderson's AvP, I really don't think anything they show in the movie's could be considered honorable.
Me three
let PREDATORS be predators and shoot tobacco-chewing gung-ho elite force boys IN THE BACK with no remorse
Me also, Predators fight to win,
and agreed on the Covenant Alien.
The 1 vs 1 with Dutch, and the sparing of Leona did a lot to fuel theories about their "honor" code. I think posts above explained very well that it's most likey a few rules that most probably follow. But to call that a code, implying that there is way more to it, is maybe a little stretch.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 02:52:41 AM
A lot of Predator superfans are really into the 'Yautja' concept with strict codes of honor and such. More like samurai than big game hunters. I don't think that really jives with the original movies tho.
The Predators in 1&2 don't fight fair. They hide out of sight, invisible to their prey, killing them from afar with advanced weaponry that doesn't even require aiming. In the first movie the Predator only goes hand-to-hand when he isolates a victim and they can't really threaten him. The hunter in P2 is a little more bold but he still favours cloaking for his attacks and still greatly outclasses his victims. They're also sore losers, turning to self-destruct when they think they're about to lose, trying to take their foes down with them rather than take the L.
The honor code idea only really relates to not killing unarmed/pregnant/sick enemies and awarding Harrigan the pistol. This isn't necessarily because it would be un-chivalrous imo though. It's because there's no challenge in the kills. If you're at max level in an rpg, do you go back to the starter zone and kill level 1 rats that can't even chip at your HP bar, let alone maybe get lucky and actually wound/kill you? I don't, because it's boring. No risk at all. Risk is what makes the hunt exciting.
As for the pistol, yeah they show a kind of begrudging respect but it seems kinda like it's specific to that one elder, because no other pred to this point had any qualms about turning their death into a murder-suicide when they thought their foes might actually defeat them. Also worth pointing out they don't exactly give Harrigan a chance to get clear before they launch their ship and very nearly crush/incinerate him.
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
(https://i.ibb.co/DWWTTky/Screenshot-20201123-221203-Gallery.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/71MrxY7/Screenshot-20201123-220721-Gallery.jpg)
The honor code has always been the intent of the Thomas Brothers and to me it has been 100% depicted. The Thomas Brothers explained Predator 2 is the "bible" for the Predator character.
To the creators, the Predators are a race of sports hunters. They do have a system of honor and code, per them. Like American hunters believe they have honor, when they go to church on Sundays after slaughtering defenseless animals with high powered weapons in camouflage on Saturdays.
You may question hunting deer or bear from trees in camouflage clothing using high powered scoped rifles ... "They don't fight fair! They're outclassing their victims! Where's the honor in that?" I do too. But to an American Hunter, it's not a question. The kill during the day, and kiss their children goodnight, living "honorable" lives. So I feel
it is important to get out of your head space, and into theirs.
Comparing it to max level rpg going to a starter zone I think is totally missing the point. And a lot of hunters don't hunt for the "risk". Some do, like the American Hunters that hunt bear with spears versus guns, or boar hunting with knives. But the popular ones... duck hunting, deer hunting, fishing, there isn't any risk. So you're not understanding the hunter correctly if you assess it entirely that way.
And you sort of dismiss the Elder Grayback Predator's actions as him acting alone, but all the Predators turned and walked away. They all left Harrigan, after Harrigan killed
one of their own. All of them.
In regards to the detonation, I see that as the Predators do not want their body or especially their tech discovered. The devastating impact of leaving that behind would be so much worse than any unwanted deaths it may cause in its radius.
It's like when humans hunt bears with spears, they bring along a gun just in case. Because after a point, it gets to a point, where all bets are off.
Intent is meaningless if it doesn't make it onto film and as I've already argued, I don't believe it does and I don't believe it's a good idea in this case.
You also failed to understand the max level rpg analogy - I'm talking about how the people they spare present no thrill, not their hunts overall. You also keep comparing them to human hunters in the real world as though they're the same. They obviously aren't, and I don't think they should be. Humanising Predators is a weak tactic for unimaginative writers.
As for Greyback, he's positioned as their boss. For me it reads just as easily that the others obey him rather than necessarily agree with him. But I'm not assigning meaning to what they do, I'm simply pointing out that the movies don't present us with what went on to become 'Yautja' at all.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 03:29:43 PM
Intent is meaningless if it doesn't make it onto film and as I've already argued, I don't believe it does and I don't believe it's a good idea in this case.
To me that intent made it into the film crystal clear, especially with sparing Harrigan, and the child and Leona. Even being young, when seeing it, no interviews etc. were required for me to understand that. But with that said, it certainly doesn't mean everyone isn't free to, likes to, or will interpret it that way. That's fair. :)
QuoteYou also failed to understand the max level rpg analogy - I'm talking about how the people they spare present no thrill, not their hunts overall.
Right, indeed. They like a little thrill. But the odds don't have to be even to be honorable in their head space. In a sports hunter's headspace.
QuoteYou also keep comparing them to human hunters in the real world as though they're the same. They obviously aren't, and I don't think they should be.
Even if I exclude that the Thomas Brothers compared Predators to human sports hunters often... sparing the pregnant and young.... this is human sports hunter behavior too. Their actions are similar. And that's more than fair to say.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 03:29:43 PM
Humanising Predators is a weak tactic for unimaginative writers.
Yet, I believe that is exactly what the Predator creators did. Even Stephen Hopkins agrees. So we'll agree to disagree on that.
QuoteAs for Greyback, he's positioned as their boss. For me it reads just as easily that the others obey him rather than necessarily agree with him. But I'm not assigning meaning to what they do, I'm simply pointing out that the movies don't present us with what went on to become 'Yautja' at all.
Yeah, the Elder is presented as the leader, but assuming the rest disagree with the Elder and the Elder's behavior is unorthodox, is not something I would extrapolate.
Now that I remember, City Hunter spares Leona because she is pregnant, not because she is unarmed or poses no threat/challenge. She is a trained cop with a gun in her hand at the exact moment of their encounter, I wouldn't call that a no challenge at all situation. So it's indeed a relatively human behavior.
Hunters in the real world spare the young/pregnant females because it conserves the species. It's not an honour thing, it's about making sure the population doesn't die out due to reckless hunting practices.
If you spared only the weak and old there'd be no prey left in a couple of generations.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 05:18:01 PM
Hunters in the real world spare the young/pregnant females because it conserves the species. It's not an honour thing, it's about making sure the population doesn't die out due to reckless hunting practices.
If you spared only the weak and old there'd be no prey left in a couple of generations.
By what Peter Keyes was saying in regards to how often Predators visit our planet, I don't think Predators will have to fear that killing a pregnant woman armed cop would impact the survival of the human species. ;D
But sparing the armed pregnant female for either reason can be following an honor code. I think you're putting honor into a small box with one set of rules, regardless what culture you're from, religion, planet, etc. I think the mistake is not looking at it as a standard of conduct.
Deep down it's really just big ol' cuddly teddy bear.
Quote from: Eighty-Five on Mar 01, 2021, 02:52:41 AM
The Yautja concept makes me roll my eyes tbh. The original Predators were trophy-taking slasher villains who saw us as little better than animals, equipped to pose some threat but not equal or worthy of respect as more than wall decorations.
I will always hate the idea of dumbing down Predators to just super serial space killers from space. Any time we got ourselves some out space thing for a film, its always tiring to kill us for the sake of it. I look at Independence day, Invaders from Mars, Starship Troopers, basically the entire sci-fi films from the 40s-60s on aliens can be included as well. I have a plate full of alien invasion movies already, why demote the Predators into just the same stupid vanilla monsters that we already have. I got me Freddy, Jason, Chucky and a whole bunch of others for slasher films. I don't need another serial killer/alien invader from outer space that are straight up villain that we have by the f**king shit tons.
Like any alien intelligent beings out there, they got ideas that are way too much or too different for us to handle which is why its great that they are vicious warrior hunters with an honor code that respects those who manages to defeat one of their own, show them mercy and may or may not give them something for their troubles, even though their entire culture is based around hunting other lifeforms, sapient or not, for their skulls and spines for the thrill of the hunt and the lulz, not to mention one of their own did slaughter a bunch of your comrades but hey they thats blue and orange alien values for ya!
Again, why demote them to something we have seen before so many times in other movies before? You want alien killers that kill for nothing, look at Alien then. Want killers that kill for lulz, go look at Freddy films. I ask, why do this to Predator?
Its like getting mad at spicy peppers for being spicy, can't take the spice, go eat watermelon or something, don't take the spice from peppers it looks dumb.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Apr 08, 2021, 12:32:36 AM
I will always hate the idea of dumbing down Predators to just super serial space killers from space. Any time we got ourselves some out space thing for a film, its always tiring to kill us for the sake of it. I look at Independence day, Invaders from Mars, Starship Troopers, basically the entire sci-fi films from the 40s-60s on aliens can be included as well. I have a plate full of alien invasion movies already, why demote the Predators into just the same stupid vanilla monsters that we already have. I got me Freddy, Jason, Chucky and a whole bunch of others for slasher films. I don't need another serial killer/alien invader from outer space that are straight up villain that we have by the f**king shit tons.
Like any alien intelligent beings out there, they got ideas that are way too much or too different for us to handle which is why its great that they are vicious warrior hunters with an honor code that respects those who manages to defeat one of their own, show them mercy and may or may not give them something for their troubles, even though their entire culture is based around hunting other lifeforms, sapient or not, for their skulls and spines for the thrill of the hunt and the lulz, not to mention one of their own did slaughter a bunch of your comrades but hey they thats blue and orange alien values for ya!
Again, why demote them to something we have seen before so many times in other movies before? You want alien killers that kill for nothing, look at Alien then. Want killers that kill for lulz, go look at Freddy films. I ask, why do this to Predator?
Its like getting mad at spicy peppers for being spicy, can't take the spice, go eat watermelon or something, don't take the spice from peppers it looks dumb.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/039b76f457e474fccd92a26f5562393d/tenor.gif)
It's interesting to note:
Solely in my own personal travels, my experiences, and my interactions alone, I've found this phenomena of people's desire to change the concept of Predator... the wanting to transform the creature from its core concept to these
argh, kill, kill, kill psychopathic monsters... to be disproportional high among Alien fans that prefer the Alien monster first and foremost, but also have become Predator fans by nature of the two creatures' union. It's really interesting. So perhaps,
just perhaps, there is something subconsciously inherent in many primary Alien fans and their love for that unrelenting
kill kill kill type of monster that causes them to want to apply that appeal to Predators, to make them more personally enjoyable.
Who knows for certain. I'm sure much more intelligent people than me could analyze this, weigh all of it and determine its merits if any. :)
I think them being strictly honourable just makes them predictable, in that respect it's exciting when they break "the rules" like a real life human hunter, deciding to switch to auto when their own safety's threatened.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 08, 2021, 02:54:29 PM
I think them being strictly honourable just makes them predictable, in that respect it's exciting when they break "the rules" like a real life human hunter, deciding to switch to auto when their own safety's threatened.
Well, all bets are off when they activate their self destruct, that's for certain. :) But nothing to me is more predictable than a monster that kills everything.
That whole ending of Predator 2 - when after Harrigan kills one of their own - he's rewarded for it? Nothing to me was more unpredictable than that moment, and is why I became such a fan, and realized there was so much more to these creatures!
I didn't say they should just mindlessly kill everything.
But I don't think they're obligated to spare someone either.
I think that honestly, they act in terms of doing what's fun, or interesting more than anything else.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 08, 2021, 02:47:10 PM
Solely in my own personal travels, my experiences, and my interactions alone, I've found this phenomena of people's desire to change the concept of Predator... the wanting to transform the creature from its core concept to these argh, kill, kill, kill psychopathic monsters... to be disproportional high among Alien fans that prefer the Alien monster first and foremost, but also have become Predator fans by nature of the two creatures' union. It's really interesting. So perhaps, just perhaps, there is something subconsciously inherent in many primary Alien fans and their love for that unrelenting kill kill kill type of monster that causes them to want to apply that appeal to Predators, to make them more personally enjoyable.
Who knows for certain. I'm sure much more intelligent people than me could analyze this, weigh all of it and determine its merits if any. :)
Its the human experience, mainly the human projection that an outside force wants to invade and do harm to them as that is what we humans have done to others throughout human history. Especially here in the states, fear of invading communists that was ingrained in our minds since WWII, fear of the unknown that we see outside the depths of outer space a la H.P Lovecraft, leads to a possible alien invasion thanks to the conspiracy events of Area 51 and other supposed alien encounters from local populations. The U.S culture is deep rooted in fear of losing their freedom and fear of "invading" immigrants that is still rooted today as you can see with many of the political troubles we have here. Alien invasions is just one manifestation of this fear.
Its the same reason why I see Dutch's perspective on Predators very interesting and unique to fictional alien races overall, he would rather face the possibility of an alien invasion rather than being hunted as that simply relegates human beings to just game animals. We humans always seen ourselves the dominant race on the planet, the center of our own world that mastered this very Earth, so having an outside force not even seeing value in us as something worth conquering but to be hunted greatly demotes us to a position equal to that to the animals we used to hunt long ago, or even perhaps to cattle we raise for our consumption.
Which is why added to this sudden demoted rank of our place in the food chain, The Honor Code simply puts an interesting spin on the aliens coming to earth in that they do have thinking minds with different values that are that different from us, pure alien. Besides being a guiding principle that disciplines their life from indiscriminately killing anyone that would make it no different from any alien race in media, it has a reward system for their enemies. If one of us slays their kind, that individual is seen to be respected for taken down a fellow warrior, spared, and perhaps even honored with a gift from their elders. Its a strange set a rules that evades us but yet it is just to them, which sells a truly alien race with their own distinct culture.
Its an alien race that does not want peace with us, but also does not wish war or invasion either. Its a unique set of values not seen in other media with aliens that makes the Predator stand out on its own and makes it a iconic character that we all know today.
Its also why I don't understand the whole "space samurai" comparison when historically samurai weren't exactly as honorable as people claimed as there are many many accounts in they were complete dicks to their lower class people such as testing new swords on criminals for the simple crime of thievery, testing their new weapon on innocent civilians even (known as tsujigiri), and even the carte blanche of killing anyone that insulted them because that's samurai privilege for ya. Rather they also have a mix of Viking and Mongol culture in them, a nomadic warrior-hunter people that live in tribes with similar practices like the practice of adopting others into their tribe when they see you as a worthy opponent, with a dash of Bushido code of honor from the Samurai. It all goes back to Keyes tapes on Predator Hunting Grounds where Predators live by a culture that humans left behind so long ago so in this way, Predators address old ways and thinking that we humans once have done in the past. Its a twist on the human perspective of an invading alien force but rather with a dash of warrior-hunter culture that many people used to live by themselves so long ago. Ruthless and bloodthirsty, yet not evil and even honorable? Complex just like us humans and all of human history, its a new take of our fears and reflection on us as well.
Oh and remember, the last time someone proposed Predators invading Earth, it ended up with them wanting to hunt kids for autism to make them stronger adapt to Earth better due to climate change or whatever so yeah, idk why yall still stick with that when someone already did your idea and it sucked major balls.
Who sticks with that?
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/019/304/old.jpg)
Let's not forget that a major plot point in the original and best AvP product is that the youngsters do start a massacre of mostly unarmed colonists literally the second their bossman gets KO'd. There's rules and an aspect of honour but like in any society, the teenagers and a few random assholes will totally ignore that stuff as soon as they think they can get away with it.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 08, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Let's not forget that a major plot point in the original and best AvP product is that the youngsters do start a massacre of mostly unarmed colonists literally the second their bossman gets KO'd. There's rules and an aspect of honour but like in any society, the teenagers and a few random assholes will totally ignore that stuff as soon as they think they can get away with it.
Yeah like us humans, Predators have criminal and dark elements that want to crazy. I mean look no further to the Super Predators like the ones in Predators. If anything it does make them interesting and diverse, showing that Predator society have conflicts within like we do. Doesn't take away from my point at all.
All of you who were pissed how autism was portrayed in The Predator should watch this:
Spoiler
(https://infutilidades.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/marymax.jpg)
Truly a hidden gem
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Apr 08, 2021, 11:56:59 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 08, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Let's not forget that a major plot point in the original and best AvP product is that the youngsters do start a massacre of mostly unarmed colonists literally the second their bossman gets KO'd. There's rules and an aspect of honour but like in any society, the teenagers and a few random assholes will totally ignore that stuff as soon as they think they can get away with it.
Yeah like us humans, Predators have criminal and dark elements that want to crazy. I mean look no further to the Super Predators like the ones in Predators. If anything it does make them interesting and diverse, showing that Predator society have conflicts within like we do. Doesn't take away from my point at all.
Yup to all of this!
Immensely interesting thread! I'll share my insights as soon as I get sober ;D
Quote from: Master on Apr 10, 2021, 07:51:39 PM
Immensely interesting thread! I'll share my insights as soon as I get sober ;D
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/9SIXFu7bIUYHhFc19G/giphy.gif)
;D
One helluva hangover must've followed ! ;D
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 09, 2021, 09:26:49 AM
All of you who were pissed how autism was portrayed in The Predator should watch this:
Spoiler
(https://infutilidades.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/marymax.jpg)
Truly a hidden gem
I don't see how this film counters anything I said, rather strengthens my point in that how is it a good idea to write a story where Predators, powerful warrior/hunters who supposedly hunt the most dangerous beings in the universe for the thrill of the hunt, looks at a child that has a condition that they struggle with in their daily life such as having trouble reading social cues and decides that its cool to rip out that spinal cord?
In various spectrums of autism, its a diverse area where each individual will have their own unique issues they must face and overcome. I hear many people who have high function autism always being challenged if they actually do since they "look normal" while not only that belittles the struggles of high function autism but also implies that autism as a set look stereotype that is followed to the letter. I personally knew someone that was on the lowest end of the spectrum that my own mother once worked with when I was young and all that very sweet and shy kid wanted to do was have a happy life and play with his construction trucks. Due to various health issues that came along with it, doctors told the family he wouldn't last long but he lasted to 24. Sadly the last time I saw him was around 11 but I always heard from my mom that he was always doing his best.
Yet somehow that film wanted me to be convinced that autism is a commodity to be weaponized by an alien race that will make them stronger somehow? Yeah I'm a keep dunking on the film for making such an idiotic statement. Autism doesn't make anyone any less or any more of a person, only to be loved and taken care of just like everyone else around here.
What I do want to ask of you Kradan is what is your take on the Predator's pursuit of autism, as I see your defense of the movie but never a in depth analysis? If you made such an analysis, I would love to read it and discuss this somewhere else as I don't want to clog this in another topic that is currently ongoing in this thread.
I was not trying to argue anything you said previously. All I wanted to say was "Hey, people ! There's a great claymation cartoon you probably never heard of before . And it kinda deals with the same subject discussed here. Check it out ! ". Sorry for confusion
Regarding my defense of The Predator: is that movie flawed ? Hell yeah. Do I still like it ? Yes. Do I think It deserved amount of crap it got ? No.
As for movie's portrayal of autism: It doesn't bother me personally but I understand people who were offended by it. Though I think some people tend to over-blow that issue. As I see it, Upgrade Predator was one big really BAD Predator, who probably was a member of some rogue Bad Blood clan which wanted to modify their genes and take over the Earth. But he didn't represent species as a whole and there were Predators who weren't in agreement with him, one of which was Fugitive Predator. So it's not like "Well, now ALL of the Predators are after autism". The fact Fugitive had foreign DNA too I take as that he was captured by Bad Blood clan and used for experiments. That's why IMO he was so pissed waking up in that lab even though he was supposed to help humans - that was a case of Predator PTSD.
And I don't think Uprgrade was going for autism as a whole but for its positive aspects specifically as they were portrayed in the movie: super-memory, being able to figure out alien technology etc. He would've get rid off its disadavantages. One might say it's not how DNA works but whatever, I don't care - The Predator is not that kind of movie I would demand total scientific accuracy from.
I guess, movie would've been better off without autism stuff altogether. Rory should've been just a reallt smart kid, like wunderkind or something. I get what Shane Black was trying to do with it but it didn't work for many people 'cause it was portrayed as super-power and it was inconsistent.
Does all of that ^^^ require me to fill the gaps and explain stuff that should've been explained in the movie itself ? Yes, but I'm cool with it. And I don't have to tell you what a troubled production that movie had.
I wouldn't have said it better ! And to be fair the autism angle, while being quite bad, wasn't the biggest problem of this movie like it seems to be for a lot of people.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 12, 2021, 11:09:22 PM
I wouldn't have said it better ! And to be fair the autism angle, while being quite bad, wasn't the biggest problem of this movie like it seems to be for a lot of people.
Now I'm curious. :) What was the biggest problem of the movie, from your perspective?
Fugitive died too early. And some of CGI looks really bad. The end
Still the best Predator in performance since KPH.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 13, 2021, 12:56:28 PM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 12, 2021, 11:09:22 PM
I wouldn't have said it better ! And to be fair the autism angle, while being quite bad, wasn't the biggest problem of this movie like it seems to be for a lot of people.
Now I'm curious. :) What was the biggest problem of the movie, from your perspective?
A way too much lighter tone and too much out of place humor, destroying any attempt at making it look like a predator movie in my opinion. Too visible editing problems that creates situations that make little to no sense also.
Can't disagree with anything you said. I liked the tone movie was going for though
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 12, 2021, 02:52:09 PM
Quote from: Master on Apr 10, 2021, 07:51:39 PM
Immensely interesting thread! I'll share my insights as soon as I get sober ;D
https://media2.giphy.com/media/9SIXFu7bIUYHhFc19G/giphy.gif
;D
Wait no longer!
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 12, 2021, 03:20:38 PM
One helluva hangover must've followed ! ;D
Dude, I`m not entirely fresh even right now ;D
All righty then. At first I`d want to say the analysis by CorderyFX is on pair with my own insight about Predator design and while I do not agree with every single word he says, I think he nailed it in most points.
As for my greater insight in every Predator design I must start from the very beginning. I`m from May 1988. Just abit younger then the first film and I can`t really recall when I first saw Predator. Must have been between 5-7 y.o. cause that was the time I was allowed to see my first movies. What I do remember very well is summer vacation in our cabin in the woods when me and my brother discovered there was VHS rental nearby and we did rent all Predator (two of them for the time being) and Alien films, and watch`em to the death. I remember that there was time I was lurking for third film in VHS rentals (it was before the internet back then, so I wasn`t aware there is no part 3).
Time has passed and in 2004 AvP hit the theaters. It was the first A-P film I saw on the big screen (I tried to get in for A:R, but was not allowed by gate keepers) and I was disappointed by instant Aliens but was wracked me the most was when Scar removed his mask. The way first two Predator look without mask was planted in my brain plain and simple and the look Scar presented was just disappointing. Then there was AvP-R and till 2018 nothing did greater damage to both franchises. I learned to appreciate AvP for what it was and how grand it felt . The rest is history, as I joined AvPGalaxy during production of AvP-R.
About designs, I think what made first two great is whole functionality it presented. Seriously, first Predator should get his own version of Shadow Of The Vampire, cause it looks like breathing living creature on screen. Second Predator is also one of the Stan Winston`s finest and it cemented how creature should look in the future, right? Wrong. Every other design is downhill from there.
2004 Scar:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/avp2004-bluray-832.jpg)
I mean, I don`t try to be especially harsh, but just look at it. If Jungle Hunter is German Sheppard then Scar is Pug. You can tell that it is related to Predator race, but common, compared to real deal it is just pale immitation. I admit Scar has his momments, but it`s the worst looking Predator up to date.
2007 Wolf:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/avpr-bluray-0098.jpg)
To be honest Wolf is wierd looking Predator. It`s hard to make more in depth analisys cause darn movie is so God damn dark, you have problems to dig out any details out of it. No matter what they did to Wolf though, nothing tops the crime the Predalien was in this movie (most awful design from all avaliable), why they picked it haunts me to this day.
2010 Classic:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/predators-bluray-534.jpg)
The desing itsefl looks good. They wanted to recreate original 1987 look and did it quite nicely, but the animatronics they`ve put inside are cheap excuse to Winston`s achievment. The ressult is gaping mouth with moving mandibles absolutely unable to close itself. Scar was ugly, Classic is failure.
Super Predator:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/predators-bluray-595.jpg)
Crazy design. Animatronics are better with Super Predator, but desing is all over the place. In my headcanon he is badly burned, that`s why his face pattern is so wierd.
2018 Fugitive:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/9b/9b/009b9b549229e32b19e6ec53fa0c2254.jpg)
IMO best ADI Predator design, but it`s still miles from P1 and P2. Mandibles are placed to low, pharynx is placed to low and skin around mandibles is the most floopy to the date.
Upgrade:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/predator4-still-016-1920x1079.jpg)
It`s another mutant next to Super Predator and thus more forgivable in his wierdnes. He has to low placed mandibles just like Fugitive, but what bothers me the most about this one is paradoxically the lack of predator mask, not his wierd face.
That`s my stance on Predator desing. Mind you I focused mostly on the faces, as was intended in first post.
But pugs are cute ! :D
(https://i1.wp.com/nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/04/pugs-coronavirus.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&ssl=1)
Agreed on Upgrade not having a mask. That was a bit dissapointing
I agree fugitive is the best ADI predator IMO. The work on the skin is better I think. It's also ADI smallest mouth to this day, there's hope for the next one right ? ;D
@Master
Nice writeup!
And at least with the Classic/Crucified Predator we can reconcile in our minds that this is what a Predator looks like when they're dehydrated and starved, and strung up for days. ;D
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 13, 2021, 10:46:49 PM
I agree fugitive is the best ADI predator IMO. The work on the skin is better I think. It's also ADI smallest mouth to this day, there's hope for the next one right ? ;D
I at least can say I think The Fugitive had the best paint job to date for an ADI Predator. But yeah, all I have is a slight hope through Dan Trachtenberg that he can somehow navigate and micromanage ADI through all this and achieve truly a great Predator.
Because damn, what would I give for a Predator to have proportion and an actual neck again. :-\
(https://i.ibb.co/RNRhhsh/Screenshot-20210414-103857-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rbmc15g/Screenshot-20210414-103940-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBPBb8Y/Screenshot-20210414-104008-Gallery.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
@Master
Nice writeup!
And at least with the Classic/Crucified Predator we can reconcile in our minds that this is what a Predator looks like when they're dehydrated and starved, and strung up for days. ;D
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 13, 2021, 10:46:49 PM
I agree fugitive is the best ADI predator IMO. The work on the skin is better I think. It's also ADI smallest mouth to this day, there's hope for the next one right ? ;D
I at least can say I think The Fugitive had the best paint job to date for an ADI Predator. But yeah, all I have is a slight hope through Dan Trachtenberg that he can somehow navigate and micromanage ADI through all this and achieve truly a great Predator.
Because damn, what would I give for a Predator to have proportion and an actual neck again. :-\
(https://i.ibb.co/RNRhhsh/Screenshot-20210414-103857-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rbmc15g/Screenshot-20210414-103940-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBPBb8Y/Screenshot-20210414-104008-Gallery.jpg)
I can't agree more man ! I imagine if Trachtenberg isn't satisfied with what ADI gives him, possibly he can orientates them into changing stuff right ?
Never seen that last photo before, love it.
What I'd give to see pressure cables on Predator again. Last seen in AvP-R. Fourteen years ago!
Jesus Christ you're right.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 14, 2021, 03:00:33 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 13, 2021, 10:46:49 PM
I agree fugitive is the best ADI predator IMO. The work on the skin is better I think. It's also ADI smallest mouth to this day, there's hope for the next one right ? ;D
I at least can say I think The Fugitive had the best paint job to date for an ADI Predator. But yeah, all I have is a slight hope through Dan Trachtenberg that he can somehow navigate and micromanage ADI through all this and achieve truly a great Predator.
Because damn, what would I give for a Predator to have proportion and an actual neck again. :-\
(https://i.ibb.co/RNRhhsh/Screenshot-20210414-103857-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rbmc15g/Screenshot-20210414-103940-Gallery.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBPBb8Y/Screenshot-20210414-104008-Gallery.jpg)
I can't agree more man ! I imagine if Trachtenberg isn't satisfied with what ADI gives him, possibly he can orientates them into changing stuff right ?
I have to think Dan Trachtenberg would absolutely have the ultimate power to push back on ADI, with perhaps only Producer John Davis and the Studio itself with the ability to counter and/or overule.
Let us pray! Pray to the Yautja Gods to give Dan the strength to follow his convictions without waver!
(https://thavenicebitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/talladega-nights-pray.gif)
Quote from: Master on Apr 14, 2021, 03:10:14 PM
What I'd give to see pressure cables on Predator again. Last seen in AvP-R. Fourteen years ago!
Wait, do you mean the bungee cables attached to Predators (a John McTiernan conception I believe) so a Predator would look lighter on their feet than a 100-200 pound costume would allow?
If so....
YES PLEASE!
I think he means the bio mask cables.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 14, 2021, 03:44:38 PM
I think he means the bio mask cables.
YES PLEASE to both then! Definitely!
I share your enthusiasm.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 14, 2021, 03:44:38 PM
I think he means the bio mask cables.
YES PLEASE to both then! Definitely!
Yeah, that's what I meant. Deterioration of Predator design continues not only with badly shaped mandibles and gaping mouth but also with dropping all those small details that made Predator unique. We already lost pressure cables, netting and med-kit, but also whole armor and mask with Upgrade.
The more I look at it, the more I see Fugitive's head clearly being oversized and lacking a neck indeed. It baffles me how someone could not see that now.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
I at least can say I think The Fugitive had the best paint job to date for an ADI Predator. But yeah, all I have is a slight hope through Dan Trachtenberg that he can somehow navigate and micromanage ADI through all this and achieve truly a great Predator.
OK, this caught my atention: do we know anything about ADI being involved in the next Predator movie ? Have I missed some new piece of information ? No joking, just curious
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 14, 2021, 05:59:26 PM
The more I look at it, the more I see Fugitive's head clearly being oversized and lacking a neck indeed. It baffles me how someone could not see that now.
It's not that I can't see it - It's just I don't care
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 12, 2021, 08:26:55 PM
As for movie's portrayal of autism: It doesn't bother me personally but I understand people who were offended by it. Though I think some people tend to over-blow that issue. As I see it, Upgrade Predator was one big really BAD Predator, who probably was a member of some rogue Bad Blood clan which wanted to modify their genes and take over the Earth. But he didn't represent species as a whole and there were Predators who weren't in agreement with him, one of which was Fugitive Predator. So it's not like "Well, now ALL of the Predators are after autism". The fact Fugitive had foreign DNA too I take as that he was captured by Bad Blood clan and used for experiments. That's why IMO he was so pissed waking up in that lab even though he was supposed to help humans - that was a case of Predator PTSD.
That also comes down to writing. It never made such distinction and it took the film being set on fire by critics and fans for Shane Black to step back and turn against the original idea. I also had issues in other parts of the writing such as giving the power suit to humans, which would have the first encounter of Quinn and Fugitive in Mexico go down much more peaceful or at least less violently than Fugitive simply killing right from the get go. Its supposed to be an intellegent warrior-hunter, if it wanted to give something this powerful to the right people, he should have stalked them to see if they were the right ones to talk to.
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 12, 2021, 08:26:55 PM
I guess, movie would've been better off without autism stuff altogether. Rory should've been just a reallt smart kid, like wunderkind or something. I get what Shane Black was trying to do with it but it didn't work for many people 'cause it was portrayed as super-power and it was inconsistent.
Does all of that ^^^ require me to fill the gaps and explain stuff that should've been explained in the movie itself ? Yes, but I'm cool with it. And I don't have to tell you what a troubled production that movie had.
Yeah, again it all came down to bad writing and poor execution of ideas and the film would have been much more forgivable if it never went with the autism angle.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 12, 2021, 11:09:22 PM
I wouldn't have said it better ! And to be fair the autism angle, while being quite bad, wasn't the biggest problem of this movie like it seems to be for a lot of people.
The problem was, yeah that was the end goal. All of this craziness was for three things, killing Fugitive, getting the stolen suit back, and capturing the kid. It straight up said that the kid is Earth's greatest warrior and the kid isn't even in high school.
Tone can always be worked with a film if the writing was good but it wasn't and the misplaced tone made the film taste worse.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 14, 2021, 03:44:38 PM
I think he means the bio mask cables.
YES PLEASE to both then! Definitely!
Do you think Predators should have more agility? I see people think Preds are heavy set but they can climb trees and jump very high. I think Scarface from CJ just made me think of Preds in a different light that just because you are heavy doesn't mean you are slow moving with little mobility either.
@Master
Yep! To me, conveying the agility of The Predator is important. That's why in Predator 1987, John McTiernan insisted attaching Kevin Peter Hall to bungee chords in key areas to give him a light step even while walking, so it was convincing to the audience this was a thing that could jump from tree to tree. You saw a lot of that agility in Predator 2 as well during the fight with OWLF. Constantly jumping in and out of the melee.
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 14, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 14, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
I at least can say I think The Fugitive had the best paint job to date for an ADI Predator. But yeah, all I have is a slight hope through Dan Trachtenberg that he can somehow navigate and micromanage ADI through all this and achieve truly a great Predator.
OK, this caught my atention: do we know anything about ADI being involved in the next Predator movie ? Have I missed some new piece of information ? No joking, just curious
Let me stress that nothing official has been announced. But what we can gather pubically, I've been kind of treating ADI doing the creature work on Skulls as a foregone conclusion ever since 1) Alec announced ADI was now hiring mold makers, mechanics, hair, fur & sculptors over a month ago and 2) Kyle Strauts who played an Emissary Predator for ADI who is training right now for a "HUGE" film, has previously liked several tweets by fans insinuating he'll be in Alberta filming Skulls.
I guess you can also throw in ADI's Alec liking Dan Trachtenberg's latest Instagram post where he's scouting for Skulls and it seems all but certain.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 14, 2021, 05:59:26 PM
The more I look at it, the more I see Fugitive's head clearly being oversized and lacking a neck indeed. It baffles me how someone could not see that now.
Yep. Even when the Fugitive was armorless in the lab escape, the neck is pretty much non-existent, which gives him this odd bobble-head look. So while the paint scheme on The Fugitive improved by leaps and bounds, it felt like for every fix, there was a new break. :-\
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 14, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 14, 2021, 05:59:26 PM
The more I look at it, the more I see Fugitive's head clearly being oversized and lacking a neck indeed. It baffles me how someone could not see that now.
It's not that I can't see it - It's just I don't care
I know, I was thinking of some people that actually told me they don't see any difference.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 14, 2021, 03:00:33 PM
I can't agree more man ! I imagine if Trachtenberg isn't satisfied with what ADI gives him, possibly he can orientates them into changing stuff right ?
This has been the case with every director on every film.
So the directors main gripes weren't about the mouth if I understand correctly ?
If any of the existing directors cared enough about it to request a change, they could have. There is no evidence they did.
Ok. I hope Trachtenberg will have a different taste and make a change, we'll see.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 15, 2021, 10:19:18 AM
If any of the existing directors cared enough about it to request a change, they could have. There is no evidence they did.
Not necessarily. At some point
time is a factor and where you are on your production schedule. Not many studios, especially now, will allow what McTiernan was able to accomplish back then by shutting production down for months for creature improvements.
TQ brought up the great point that The Fugitive looked facially proportionally better in his CG scenes than his practical scenes. So when there's a difference between cg design and practical execution, when the practical head doesn't quite match the concept art and maquette the director approved and you need to film Predator scenes in a couple days, as a director you may just be forced to run with it per the producer & studio's direction.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 15, 2021, 11:56:12 AM
Not necessarily. At some point time is a factor and where you are on your production schedule. Not many studios, especially now, will allow what McTiernan was able to accomplish back then by shutting production down for months for creature improvements.
We know the directors were happy with the look in the AvP films at least.
There's no real evidence either of the other directors were caught horribly off guard by something that was completely removed from what they wanted. Even if the proportions were different on the cg Fugitive, the overall design was the same.
The designs were approved.
Trachtenberg will have his input on the design and hopefully his sensibilities line up with the fans. Otherwise stiff shit to us unfortunately :-\
Quote from: SiL on Apr 15, 2021, 08:27:06 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 15, 2021, 11:56:12 AM
Not necessarily. At some point time is a factor and where you are on your production schedule. Not many studios, especially now, will allow what McTiernan was able to accomplish back then by shutting production down for months for creature improvements.
We know the directors were happy with the look in the AvP films at least.
There's no real evidence either of the other directors were caught horribly off guard by something that was completely removed from what they wanted. Even if the proportions were different on the cg Fugitive, the overall design was the same.
The designs were approved.
Trachtenberg will have his input on the design and hopefully his sensibilities line up with the fans. Otherwise stiff shit to us unfortunately :-\
No true, there's no evidence, but I suspect even if there was some unhappiness, due to director professionalism, most of the time there would never be evidence. I really don't know if Anderson was truly happy, for instance. Neither of us truly do. Burning bridges of those who work with you is not wise especially in this industry. Even if say Nimrod Antal had a problem with an aspect of KNB, say 10% issues, I don't suspect he would call the issues out after the film's release and say he wish KNB would have done better... or in retrospect... wish a different FX house did them. He would say KNB did a great job. And I would too.
But I wasn't countering the evidence aspect here, just challenging the notion that if any of the existing directors cared enough about it to request a change, they could have. That's where I disagree. At some point these directors, especially ones who don't have James Cameron or Ridley Scott clout, have to run with what they have, even if not 100% pleased with the final result. They'll just work the best they can with what they have.
Anderson was upfront about other effects he wasn't happy with in the final film (he was disappointed with the helicopter shot for example).
The sculpts for all the Predators revealed how the mandibles would look. The excess skin, maybe not, but their general placement and the fact they were never going to look like the originals is clear in the clay renders. If the directors truly cared, they could have requested changes before fabrication.
There may have been things about the final fabrication they didn't like and were stuck with, but design wise, they knew what they were getting.
I never said Anderson wanted it to look like Stan's Predators. I'm talking conception to execution and it's final variances.
And throwing in "before fabrication" now is a whole different conversation. If you would have said that originally, I would have never begged to differ. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 15, 2021, 10:19:08 PM
I never said Anderson wanted it to look like Stan's Predators. I'm talking conception to execution and it's final variances.
And throwing in "before fabrication" now is a whole different conversation. If you would have said that originally, I would have never begged to differ. :)
Even in that regard there's no indication Anderson was unhappy with what he got. He's fairly honest when he thinks an effect looks naff in his own work.
I'm pretty sure the Straus bros stage by their decision to go with a fully animatronic head for Wolf too and thought he looked fine.
I was always talking design, and the mandibles are apparent in the design. My point was just that the directors always had the ability to tell ADI to change things in the design of they wanted, and Trachtenberg has the same right.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 15, 2021, 10:19:18 AM
If any of the existing directors cared enough about it to request a change, they could have. There is no evidence they did.
Pretty much what Alec said when we spoke to him.
Like I said, fingers crossed Trachtenberg has a different taste than previous directors in the matter then.
I was laughing with Voodoo, Ridge and Xenomorphine that it'll just be the Emissaries to save pennies.
And then Predator fans get a taste of the horror of recycled suits :'(
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 16, 2021, 11:01:14 AM
I was laughing with Voodoo, Ridge and Xenomorphine that it'll just be the Emissaries to save pennies.
Good one! Suits of Emmissaries weren`t bad actually. I specially do like the brown one with those crazy blue-black outlined spots. Brings memory of warm, shallow sea animals in an instant. Faces though, they`d need good fix.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 16, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
And then Predator fans get a taste of the horror of recycled suits :'(
We kinda did with AvP-R. Dumb Preds of crashed ship were reused from AvP. And AvP had reused and reperpoused Alien suits IIRC.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 16, 2021, 08:27:12 AM
Quote from: SiL on Apr 15, 2021, 10:19:18 AM
If any of the existing directors cared enough about it to request a change, they could have. There is no evidence they did.
Pretty much what Alec said when we spoke to him.
Of course! During conception absolutely. The director will be all over that.
My point was always unexpected issues
after execution when there's no time left. Our mutual mate conceded a couple weeks ago that with recent Predators there's been something lost between sculpts and final product. I was like - your conceding that? I'll take it! ;D
And that all applies to my point: :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 15, 2021, 11:56:12 AM
At some point time is a factor and where you are on your production schedule. Not many studios, especially now, will allow what McTiernan was able to accomplish back then by shutting production down for months for creature improvements.
TQ brought up the great point that The Fugitive looked facially proportionally better in his CG scenes than his practical scenes. So when there's a difference between cg design and practical execution, when the practical head doesn't quite match the concept art and maquette the director approved and you need to film Predator scenes in a couple days, as a director you may just be forced to run with it per the producer & studio's direction.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 16, 2021, 11:01:14 AM
I was laughing with Voodoo, Ridge and Xenomorphine that it'll just be the Emissaries to save pennies.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bd/20/aa/bd20aa0664d34f68d4a4c7d2ed9a699f.gif)
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 16, 2021, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 16, 2021, 11:01:14 AM
I was laughing with Voodoo, Ridge and Xenomorphine that it'll just be the Emissaries to save pennies.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bd/20/aa/bd20aa0664d34f68d4a4c7d2ed9a699f.gif
I'm fine with a body reuse, but I hope Dan Trachtenberg is in a similar mindset where he would never approve of these heads as his featured Predator or Predators in Skulls. I hope Dan would immediately reject these designs as not being up to snuff.
(https://i.ibb.co/4VhQRDx/20200108-151455.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/Qpy5Y3B/predator-evolution-11-701x394.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/fFc49pX/emissary.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/QK6dmcJ/e7d6569f873727ce78815270e1606126-12.png)
Or he might think "Cool, something new but recognisable!"
10 Cloverfield Lane is excellent; far and away the best movie with "Cloverfield" in the title, and that is due entirely to Trachtenberg's directing.
That being said, the alien design in the film isn't really anything special. Hopefully, with the creature stuff in Skulls presumably being more up in the forefront than in 10CL, he and his team harken back a bit to something more iconic in the style of the Predators from the first two films. I don't want to see yet another remake of the original design, I want the new one to feel like another individual member of the species, but with that same sense of elegance in design and performance that made Winston/KPH Predators stand out and hold up.
I for one would be happy to see something like the Emissaries, but with the jaw proportions fixed.
God almighty they look f**king terrible.
The egg head's not too bad.
But I still wouldn't mind the one with the sunken eyes if they fixed the jaw. Fugly, yes, but I'm still down for individualisation.
Individualisation I'm all for, but there's not having identical faces, and then there's looking... not quality.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 17, 2021, 02:45:32 AM
Individualisation I'm all for, but there's not having identical faces, and then there's looking... not quality.
Amen sister!
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 17, 2021, 02:33:09 AM
I don't want to see yet another remake of the original design, I want the new one to feel like another individual member of the species, but with that same sense of elegance in design and performance that made Winston/KPH Predators stand out and hold up.
"Same sense of elegance"
Well said! 👏
Excuse me but that thing has to be a facehugger's house. :-X
(https://i.ibb.co/r4dY05g/emissary.png)
I prefer this one over the purple one, but if possible, I would be more interested in a new design for the new movie.
If I was a producer, I would ask for the creature fx team to make a predator like the ones in the
first two movies, of course another individual who has his own unique features like the city hunter
compared to the original.
The majority of the audience has a preference for this early design, wich made the predator a cult icon
in the first place.They wanna make money ? Don't take your chances and stop trying to fix what's not
broke. Besides nostalgia is factor of financial success these days in Hollywood.
This thread got a lot of attention, wich is a good thing.It's one of the major problems in the franchise.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 17, 2021, 03:13:40 AM
Excuse me but that thing has to be a facehugger's house. :-X
https://i.ibb.co/r4dY05g/emissary.png
As said earlier, I like the skin pattern of this one. Face though would need some fix.
Quote from: Master on Apr 17, 2021, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 17, 2021, 03:13:40 AM
Excuse me but that thing has to be a facehugger's house. :-X
https://i.ibb.co/r4dY05g/emissary.png
As said earlier, I like the skin pattern of this one. Face though would need some fix.
Yes, there is something on his face, like he is very crude, I don't know, he looks like a Flintstone. He's a big-headed Alien egg with a weird face.
He's just a slack-jawed crabator who's in dire need of some chewing tobacco.
Would he become a god damn sexual tyrannosaurus afterwards ?
A sexual predator.
:laugh:
It's so funny reading some posts here, 'cause reading them one might think that Dan Trachtenberg is some guy who really cares about Predators' faces looking right :D
Quote from: Kradan on May 10, 2021, 11:38:17 AM
It's so funny reading some posts here, 'cause reading them one might think that Dan Trachtenberg is some guy who really cares about Predators' faces looking right :D
He may. Especially if Skulls turns out to be an unsolicited pitch and it's revealed that Dan's a big Predator fan.
I go there because, if you remember, Dan Trachtenberg said back in November 2020 that he's been working on Skulls for four years. 4 YEARS! That's 2016. That's while The Predator was already in development, and two years before the studio had any idea The Predator would be universally panned and it wouldn't be the new franchise universe launching pad they hoped it to be. That kind of lengthy commitment opens the possibility it's a labor of love, and if so, oh yeah, now in it's fifth year it's very possible Dan knows the exact Predator look he wants.
Well, It looked like labor of love with Paul W. S. Anderson, The Strause Brothers, Shane Black too, you know. True, he may be very passionate about the story he's telling but creature's design ? He may very well just trust effects' guys to do their job. I'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?
Idk, I just think it's too early to have such high hopes that Dan's gonna come and save Predator from looking terrible untill we see actual creature(s) stills from the movie
Anderson said he'd been developing his story since the 90s. The guy was clearly incredibly passionate about the project.
Look how that turned out.
Dan might know exactly the look he wants. And it might be another unmitigated disappointment for fans. He might be really, really keen for Predators with upside down mandibles. He might have a raging hard on for a female Predator with softer, more human features.
"The guy seems passionate so he must want exactly what I want?" Let's wait and see.
Whedon was passionate too.
Honestly if the film is actually good then I probably won't be bothered by crabator effects so much.
I will admit the birthday cookies for the director give me some hope.
But I'm way too cautious to pin my expectations on confectionary :D
Quote from: Kradan on May 11, 2021, 06:35:20 PM
Well, It looked like labor of love with Paul W. S. Anderson, The Strause Brothers, Shane Black too, you know. True, he may be very passionate about the story he's telling but creature's design ? He may very well just trust effects' guys to do their job.
Well, Anderson only had the Winston Predator creations to reflect back on, so this aesthetic issue was nonexistent for him.
However, the Strause Brothers did call out problems they had with the Predator design in Anderson's AvP, and actively pursued changes.
And Shane Black, I'm uncertain what was in his head.
But very true. It's just a hope at this point. :)
QuoteI'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?
Yes and yes, but McTiernan was the crucial one! Check it out:
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=62388.0
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2021, 08:32:32 PM
"The guy seems passionate so he must want exactly what I want?" Let's wait and see.
I think that's a silly comment to put in quotes to be fair. Plenty of people have been hoping in these threads that Dan Trachtenberg feels Predator designs haven't measured up since the Winston originals (seemingly an overwhelmingly majority opinion among Predator fans regardless if they mind KNB and/or ADI's work), but no one is pretending we know what Dan wants. The hope is, if he pitched this as a Predator fan, he may have recognized a decline in design too . But we don't know what's in his head. No one is correlating passion with a definite desire to strive for our vision of Winston's superior aesthetic. We're just hoping a correlation may exist. But it may just turn out the opposite. We all know it. Therefore no one feels confident. But as fans, we can hope.
Anderson's intentions with the design was obvious. It's a comic book movie.
AVP is based on a comic where proportions are exaggerated and the Predator character was to appear heroic in the film which meant hulking frames and a more emotive face. We've been over the emotive face several times here. The Predator is not a character who should smile but it fit the film because he wasn't trying to create a monster, he's trying to make an anti-hero the audience would have an easier time backing. The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs was that it's so different to the characterization that came before and since. They since walked that back hard because subsequent Predators have more or less been down and out bad guys again. Scar looks weird because he is the odd one out and why it's so frustrating to look at merchandise who try to "correct" the face because they don't understand he's not meant to look like the bad guy. The tag line lied to you, you're supposed to cheer for Lex and Scar.
That's why Wolf looks so different because they tried walking the design back. The angular mask, the lack of armor, the predatory cat influence on the face. All that was because AVP is a comic movie first and the Strause brothers didn't get that and so made Wolf as a pallet cleanser to the last film.
Scar's also shit looking, comic book influence notwithstanding.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 12, 2021, 02:47:55 PM
Anderson's intentions with the design was obvious. It's a comic book movie.
AVP is based on a comic where proportions are exaggerated and the Predator character was to appear heroic in the film which meant hulking frames and a more emotive face. We've been over the emotive face several times here. The Predator is not a character who should smile but it fit the film because he wasn't trying to create a monster, he's trying to make an anti-hero the audience would have an easier time backing. The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs was that it's so different to the characterization that came before and since. They since walked that back hard because subsequent Predators have more or less been down and out bad guys again. Scar looks weird because he is the odd one out and why it's so frustrating to look at merchandise who try to "correct" the face because they don't understand he's not meant to look like the bad guy. The tag line lied to you, you're supposed to cheer for Lex and Scar.
That's why Wolf looks so different because they tried walking the design back. The angular mask, the lack of armor, the predatory cat influence on the face. All that was because AVP is a comic movie first and the Strause brothers didn't get that and so made Wolf as a pallet cleanser to the last film.
I isolated the "The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs" because that's the heart of it to me, the crux of pages and pages of complaints. We can't control the director's choices in each film, but how much worse does each choice gets with inferior craftsmanship?
We know these unnatural folds & rolls in skin or cockeyed mandibles aren't part of the concept art or maquette, so how much better would Scar have looked with better craftsmanship?
(https://i.ibb.co/hy7JxHF/20210318-195010.gif)
Or what happened when trying to realize Steve Wang's cool approved Wolf maquette on screen?
(https://i.ibb.co/4gG9CYV/20210321-102513-1-4.gif)
And we saw the cg version of The Fugitive look more proportional than it's practical counterpart.
(https://i.ibb.co/g9Vk8tj/Screenshot-20210225-115109-Gallery.png)
So at least for me, it's not the director's vision so much so as the company realizing these visions either in design, puppeteering, or both. And it's crazy, because I think Alec & Tom are real talented guys.. it just seems Predators aren't their strength.
Perfectly explained.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 02:21:42 PM
QuoteI'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?
Yes and yes, but McTiernan was the crucial one! Check it out:
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=62388.0
Ah yes, how could I forget about this one ! Thanks for a great read ;)
Thanks Kradan. The more people know the better! :)
Quote from: Trash Queen on May 12, 2021, 05:14:56 PM
Perfectly explained.
Appreciate it! :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 02:21:42 PM
No one is correlating passion with a definite desire to strive for our vision of Winston's superior aesthetic. We're just hoping a correlation may exist.
I know. That's exactly why I used the air quotes.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 02:21:42 PM
Quote from: Kradan on May 11, 2021, 06:35:20 PM
Well, It looked like labor of love with Paul W. S. Anderson, The Strause Brothers, Shane Black too, you know. True, he may be very passionate about the story he's telling but creature's design ? He may very well just trust effects' guys to do their job.
Well, Anderson only had the Winston Predator creations to reflect back on, so this aesthetic issue was nonexistent for him.
However, the Strause Brothers did call out problems they had with the Predator design in Anderson's AvP, and actively pursued changes.
And Shane Black, I'm uncertain what was in his head.
But very true. It's just a hope at this point. :)
QuoteI'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?
Yes and yes, but McTiernan was the crucial one! Check it out:
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=62388.0
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2021, 08:32:32 PM
"The guy seems passionate so he must want exactly what I want?" Let's wait and see.
I think that's a silly comment to put in quotes to be fair. Plenty of people have been hoping in these threads that Dan Trachtenberg feels Predator designs haven't measured up since the Winston originals (seemingly an overwhelmingly majority opinion among Predator fans regardless if they mind KNB and/or ADI's work), but no one is pretending we know what Dan wants. The hope is, if he pitched this as a Predator fan, he may have recognized a decline in design too . But we don't know what's in his head. No one is correlating passion with a definite desire to strive for our vision of Winston's superior aesthetic. We're just hoping a correlation may exist. But it may just turn out the opposite. We all know it. Therefore no one feels confident. But as fans, we can hope.
Precisely :).And it doesn't hurt if the fans are vocal about their preference for the original design, (in terms of quality and aesthetic).Better be vocal about it before it's too late, you never know who read the boards.
To me, this all begs an interesting question, which is: who owns the rights to the technology used in the creature effects? I mean 20th Century unquestionably owns the rights to the design of the creature itself, presumably along with any of the props actually used in the films. So what's to stop them giving the original Stan Winston Studios costumes and props to someone like ADI or KNB and just saying "make this"?
From there they could either use the original moulds or try to reverse-engineer it to build a perfect recreation. Or are the mechanisms that make it work somehow a separate IP that each effects house continues to hold? ADI re-used the original queen head in Resurrection, so there must be some leeway with it. You'd think that would work out cheaper than trying to re-create the wheel every time as well.
As far as I'm informed, Queens head was bought from private collection. That's how ADI get hold of it.
Quote from: The Necronoir on May 15, 2021, 04:38:08 PM
To me, this all begs an interesting question, which is: who owns the rights to the technology used in the creature effects? I mean 20th Century unquestionably owns the rights to the design of the creature itself, presumably along with any of the props actually used in the films. So what's to stop them giving the original Stan Winston Studios costumes and props to someone like ADI or KNB and just saying "make this"?
From there they could either use the original moulds or try to reverse-engineer it to build a perfect recreation. Or are the mechanisms that make it work somehow a separate IP that each effects house continues to hold? ADI re-used the original queen head in Resurrection, so there must be some leeway with it. You'd think that would work out cheaper than trying to re-create the wheel every time as well.
Personally, I lean towards believing all the work-for-hire creations belong to Disney/20th Century Studios, including the script rewrites, new characters from said rewrites, the Predator name, the iconic theme, even the creature (except when creature details match what's in the original "Hunters" script).
The only thing I feel fairly confident on is... once they reclaim the copyright, the Thomas Brothers can make a new "Hunters" movie with a revamped creature design, one that perhaps matches the descriptions in their original "Hunters" spec script, but Disney/20th Century Pictures can't make another Predator film without licensing from the brothers.
Quote from: The Necronoir on May 15, 2021, 04:38:08 PM
. So what's to stop them giving the original Stan Winston Studios costumes and props to someone like ADI or KNB and just saying "make this"?
The creature studios would technically own the pieces they make, but it depends on contracts.
When you're work for hire, the end output belongs to the person hiring you. But the materials you used to get there are still yours. The studio could have it that the props are handed over to them, but this never seems to be the case.
ADI reused molds for their Aliens to save time and money on the AvP movies, but it's not like they were forced by Fox to provide them for free
I don't remember clearly, but I believe KNB used the molds of the original predator.
If they did they did an awful job of it. But I really don't think that's the case.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 22, 2021, 08:18:41 AM
QuoteAnd Wolf with his mask on is just aces to me in my book, and Ian Whyte's performance as Wolf is my next favorite to Kevin Peter Hall's!
I'm going to bite my tongue on the design but yes, Whyte does a reasonable job.
So even with the mask on you were not a fan?
Quote from: Yautja888 on May 29, 2021, 03:37:30 PM
I don't remember clearly, but I believe KNB used the molds of the original predator.
not really no. Sculpted anew from the ground up. They did have Shannon Shea supervising however
KNB Crucified Predator has some bad mandible skin but its head had great proportion. And it had a neck! And it had a regular sized mouth!
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/07d2a345c2fa2386bbdbb3fafd22eb2a/7d5c15b4fe2c50ee-22/s400x600/2c97cd56b39bc648d6e6f89160cfd6ddf1effe0b.gif)
I really do wish KNB got another chance...
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 22, 2021, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 22, 2021, 08:18:41 AM
QuoteAnd Wolf with his mask on is just aces to me in my book, and Ian Whyte's performance as Wolf is my next favorite to Kevin Peter Hall's!
I'm going to bite my tongue on the design but yes, Whyte does a reasonable job.
So even with the mask on you were not a fan?
Nope, it leaves me cold. Especially the wide "jaw flanges". Although likely I'd be okay with it if the rest of the gear that went with it was an iconic suit of armour instead of random bits of metal and strapping.
[
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 22, 2021, 07:41:19 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 22, 2021, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 22, 2021, 08:18:41 AM
QuoteAnd Wolf with his mask on is just aces to me in my book, and Ian Whyte's performance as Wolf is my next favorite to Kevin Peter Hall's!
I'm going to bite my tongue on the design but yes, Whyte does a reasonable job.
So even with the mask on you were not a fan?
Nope, it leaves me cold. Especially the wide "jaw flanges". Although likely I'd be okay with it if the rest of the gear that went with it was an iconic suit of armour instead of random bits of metal and strapping.
Hmm...
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/68/b5/2f/68b52f5a0179940f1923a6c05fab586f.jpg)
I still do like the masked Wolf, but come to think of it, yeah those jaw flanges (if that's the correct term) are pretty wide. And the rest of accessories do feel a bit more form over function. That's fair.
Spoiler
(https://i.ibb.co/gj8kqf5/20210311-153852.gif)
That reminds me actually, the Hive set in AvPR is f**king gorgeous and criminally under-utilized.
Literally so dark you can't see it in some shots. The main hallway set was ace though.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 23, 2021, 02:27:58 AM
That reminds me actually, the Hive set in AvPR is f**king gorgeous and criminally under-utilized.
For sure. I'm still hoping AvPR gets a new corrected 4K transfer one day, and the Hive is definitely one of the reasons!
I doubt the negative even exists.
It was shot on 35mm with a 4K intermediate. Pretty sure the 4K already exists, technically.
I mean I'd be surprised if anyone actually kept it.
The 4K negative of AvPR lies on top a velvet pillow in the 20th Century film vault.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Oct 23, 2021, 08:34:44 PM
I mean I'd be surprised if anyone actually kept it.
It's the digital master, of course they're going to keep it.
Extremely stoked that Alien has moved over to Weta... but still waiting for a new FX house to work on Predator. *sigh*
(https://i.ibb.co/xDckvhX/20211020-145312.gif)
Looks like we'll have ADI for Prey unfortunately. Still totally possible that they'll make a great pred, but at this point we're allowed to not trust them.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Jan 12, 2022, 05:32:46 PM
Looks like we'll have ADI for Prey unfortunately. Still totally possible that they'll make a great pred, but at this point we're allowed to not trust them.
Nothing would make me happier than a great ADI pred in Prey to finally heap praises upon! Hoping for the best! 🤞
Spoiler
How I wish that was true.
Just came across this topic again, thinking about just how awful all the Predators look past Predator 2, in Predators their mouths do not even close. When ADI finally turn in a good looking (if different) Predator and their last, it gets smeared over by muddy vaseline cgi.
Just some pretty good films marred by woeful special effects.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 14, 2023, 10:20:12 PMSpoiler
How I wish that was true.
Just came across this topic again, thinking about just how awful all the Predators look past Predator 2, in Predators their mouths do not even close. When ADI finally turn in a good looking (if different) Predator and their last, it gets smeared over by muddy vaseline cgi.
Just some pretty good films marred by woeful special effects.
I definitely agree, Predator 2 was the last time they ever looked right. As far as ADI's latest work, I think they did outstanding and the suit looked excellent. Sadly like you stated, that CGI just ruined it.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 04:51:35 PMQuote from: SuperiorIronman on May 12, 2021, 02:47:55 PMAnderson's intentions with the design was obvious. It's a comic book movie.
AVP is based on a comic where proportions are exaggerated and the Predator character was to appear heroic in the film which meant hulking frames and a more emotive face. We've been over the emotive face several times here. The Predator is not a character who should smile but it fit the film because he wasn't trying to create a monster, he's trying to make an anti-hero the audience would have an easier time backing. The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs was that it's so different to the characterization that came before and since. They since walked that back hard because subsequent Predators have more or less been down and out bad guys again. Scar looks weird because he is the odd one out and why it's so frustrating to look at merchandise who try to "correct" the face because they don't understand he's not meant to look like the bad guy. The tag line lied to you, you're supposed to cheer for Lex and Scar.
That's why Wolf looks so different because they tried walking the design back. The angular mask, the lack of armor, the predatory cat influence on the face. All that was because AVP is a comic movie first and the Strause brothers didn't get that and so made Wolf as a pallet cleanser to the last film.
I isolated the "The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs" because that's the heart of it to me, the crux of pages and pages of complaints. We can't control the director's choices in each film, but how much worse does each choice gets with inferior craftsmanship?
We know these unnatural folds & rolls in skin or cockeyed mandibles aren't part of the concept art or maquette, so how much better would Scar have looked with better craftsmanship?
https://i.ibb.co/hy7JxHF/20210318-195010.gif
Or what happened when trying to realize Steve Wang's cool approved Wolf maquette on screen?
https://i.ibb.co/4gG9CYV/20210321-102513-1-4.gif
And we saw the cg version of The Fugitive look more proportional than it's practical counterpart.
(https://i.ibb.co/g9Vk8tj/Screenshot-20210225-115109-Gallery.png)
So at least for me, it's not the director's vision so much so as the company realizing these visions either in design, puppeteering, or both. And it's crazy, because I think Alec & Tom are real talented guys.. it just seems Predators aren't their strength.
Could you elaborate on the Steve Wang maquette? Unfortunately, I don't know this story yet.
I love the design of the Wolf Predator, it is still the last good design. I have nothing against the AVP designs, I really like the armor and helmets, but the Wolf Predaror was something very special. I deeply hate the designs from Predators, The Predator and Prey.
Quote from: Yautja888 on May 15, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 02:21:42 PMQuote from: Kradan on May 11, 2021, 06:35:20 PMWell, It looked like labor of love with Paul W. S. Anderson, The Strause Brothers, Shane Black too, you know. True, he may be very passionate about the story he's telling but creature's design ? He may very well just trust effects' guys to do their job.
Well, Anderson only had the Winston Predator creations to reflect back on, so this aesthetic issue was nonexistent for him.
However, the Strause Brothers did call out problems they had with the Predator design in Anderson's AvP, and actively pursued changes.
And Shane Black, I'm uncertain what was in his head.
But very true. It's just a hope at this point. :)
QuoteI'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?
Yes and yes, but McTiernan was the crucial one! Check it out:
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=62388.0
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2021, 08:32:32 PM"The guy seems passionate so he must want exactly what I want?" Let's wait and see.
I think that's a silly comment to put in quotes to be fair. Plenty of people have been hoping in these threads that Dan Trachtenberg feels Predator designs haven't measured up since the Winston originals (seemingly an overwhelmingly majority opinion among Predator fans regardless if they mind KNB and/or ADI's work), but no one is pretending we know what Dan wants. The hope is, if he pitched this as a Predator fan, he may have recognized a decline in design too . But we don't know what's in his head. No one is correlating passion with a definite desire to strive for our vision of Winston's superior aesthetic. We're just hoping a correlation may exist. But it may just turn out the opposite. We all know it. Therefore no one feels confident. But as fans, we can hope.
Precisely :).And it doesn't hurt if the fans are vocal about their preference for the original design, (in terms of quality and aesthetic).Better be vocal about it before it's too late, you never know who read the boards.
Where can I complain, seriously? So many bad decisions have been made in recent years, whether the new dinosaur designs in Jurassic World (at least they restored the original design of the T-Rex for Dominion) or Alien and Predator. I'm really looking forward to Alien Romulus and the FX series.
Prey would be so much better with a different design, especially the face, and I hope something changes for Prey 2.
@Greyback you won't get a response about the Steve Wang comment. Voodoo, the person who you're asking is no longer visiting this site. I may be wrong but I believe he's referring to this maquette Steve designed of Wolf for AvPR:
(https://imgur.com/a/9JBE9Qm)
https://imgur.com/a/9JBE9Qm (link in case the image doesn't want to post from my phone)
@Mike's Monstersa
That's a bummer to read. Thanks for the picture. I find this design neither better nor worse than the final design. I really like the crown on the final design, which is barely visible in this picture.
Do you know more information about the design changes and why they were made?
Changes in design are always interesting so long as there's some sort of context. Berserkers for example being a different subspecies, and Feral being a different subspecies and being 300 years earlier in the timeline. With the context of those films I'm totally onboard with those designs. But the choices behind the standard Preds post-P2 has always been bizarre to me.
Designing the Predator's jaws is rocket science🤓👉👈
ADI claimed that it is an artistic choice. I don't know what's worse. The idea that they couldn't just make the mouth to close elegantly or the idea that they actually thought that the face of the newer designs looked better?
Didn't ADI once say that they could make their designs look accurate to the original, but they just don't want to?
Can ADI for once in their life JUST NOT :'(
It don't need to be spread out like syrup on pancakes, sometimes a few teaspoons is enough of a helping, it don't gotta be downing in it that it turns into a pile of molasses. I beg yall, we just want great Predator design again. I had enough of just having mid.
I keep expecting their Predator to end up mutating into something like Pumpkinhead, just like their Alien did, as if that was the pinnacle of creature design and they can't wait to make everything else they do resemble it.
They're like Mr. Brady in The Brady Bunch Movie. Every building he designed, whether it was a restaurant, office or convenience store looked just like his house. Which he designed.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 21, 2024, 05:17:50 AMI keep expecting their Predator to end up mutating into something like Pumpkinhead, just like their Alien did, as if that was the pinnacle of creature design and can't wait to make everything else they do resemble it.
Cucurbitization, like carcinization. This is a thing now, we're calling it that.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 21, 2024, 04:59:55 AMCan ADI for once in their life JUST NOT :'(
It don't need to be spread out like syrup on pancakes, sometimes a few teaspoons is enough of a helping, it don't gotta be downing in it that it turns into a pile of molasses. I beg yall, we just want great Predator design again. I had enough of just having mid.
KNB didn't do a better job. Their classic pred was inferior to most fan made pred faces.
Quote from: Yautja888 on Jan 21, 2024, 07:49:28 PMQuote from: Mr.Turok on Jan 21, 2024, 04:59:55 AMCan ADI for once in their life JUST NOT :'(
It don't need to be spread out like syrup on pancakes, sometimes a few teaspoons is enough of a helping, it don't gotta be downing in it that it turns into a pile of molasses. I beg yall, we just want great Predator design again. I had enough of just having mid.
KNB didn't do a better job. Their classic pred was inferior to most fan made pred faces.
It's nuts that they were so close. Like THAT close to getting it right. Instead they had the mandibles just droop from it's mouth and barely closed. They had the X mandible positioning right but it remained open making it look like a mouth breather. :laugh:
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 21, 2024, 05:17:50 AMI keep expecting their Predator to end up mutating into something like Pumpkinhead, just like their Alien did, as if that was the pinnacle of creature design and they can't wait to make everything else they do resemble it.
They're like Mr. Brady in The Brady Bunch Movie. Every building he designed, whether it was a restaurant, office or convenience store looked just like his house. Which he designed.
My biggest complaint by far is the Pumpkinization of creature design across the board. Pumpkinhead is cool too. Everything just doesn't have to look like it.