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Noah Hawley Is Venturing Into the Absurd With Anthem

QuoteEsquire: FX's John Landgraf described your upcoming Alien spin-off as "a beast," and "a really big world-building exercise" for you. What can you tell us about how the world-building exercise is going?

N.H.: It's going great. It's going slowly, unfortunately, given the scale of it. I've made a certain business out of reinvention. Alien is a fascinating story because it's not just a monster movie; it's about how we're trapped between the primordial past and the artificial intelligence of our future, where both trying to kill us. It's set on Earth of the future. At this moment, I describe that as Edison versus Westinghouse versus Tesla. Someone's going to monopolize electricity. We just don't know which one it is.

In the movies, we have this Weyland-Yutani Corporation, which is clearly also developing artificial intelligence—but what if there are other companies trying to look at immortality in a different way, with cyborg enhancements or transhuman downloads? Which of those technologies is going to win? It's ultimately a classic science fiction question: does humanity deserve to survive? As Sigourney Weaver said in that second movie, "I don't know which species is worse. At least they don't f**k each other over for a percentage." Even if the show was 60% of the best horror action on the planet, there's still 40% where we have to ask, "What are we talking about it, beneath it all?" Thematically, it has to be interesting. It's humbling to get to play with the iconography of this world.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/a38591125/noah-hawley-anthem-alien-fargo-interview/

...ughh. :-\

What?

I liked what he said.

So do I glad it's getting developed carefully.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 05, 2022, 08:20:09 AM
What?

Sounds like more trash that considers the Alien a sideshow in its own series. Also future Earth is 100% the location? Pass.

Hawley gets that a show about marines fighting an infestation would be boring if there's no underlying theme.

I'll remain cautiously optimistic about the whole thing

Quote from: Kane's other son on Jan 05, 2022, 11:38:06 AM
Hawley gets that a show about marines fighting an infestation would be boring if there's no underlying theme.

Wouldn't have wanted that either

Sounds very Blade Runner-esque but fortunately that's right up my alley so I'm quite intrigued. But I do understand the worry that the alien itself will be sidelined and minimal.

He said 60/40 I'd say that ratio's about right when you consider the original film honestly.

The Alien does not appear until around an hour in.

And in a TV Series you will naturally have more downtime overall.

Ha ha Riddles wins and..I'm glad, to those not, as Ash would say, you have my sympathies

..From the info looks like the parameters of where in the timeline it's set has it now narrowed down 😄 somewhere just about before Prometheus and sometime up to Alien/ maybe pre Aliens?

Just kind of the overall impression I'm getting of the backdrop of the world the show is going to inhabit, based on Hawley's comments here. 'Androids,' 'cyborg enhancements,' 'transhuman downloads,' et. al.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 05, 2022, 09:08:18 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FITvzYPXIAQZk-p?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Can you imagine establishing a symbiotic link between a human and an Alien in the avatar style?  :o

I'm not saying it would be a nice experience or anything, I'm just wondering.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 05, 2022, 09:35:29 PM
Can you imagine establishing a symbiotic link between a human and an Alien in the avatar style?  :o

Kinda. ;)

Spoiler

(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1609601448l/56516733.jpg)

[close]

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 05, 2022, 02:24:05 PM
He said 60/40 I'd say that ratio's about right when you consider the original film honestly.

The Alien does not appear until around an hour in.

The Alien appears in the first half hour in the form of the eggs and facehugger.

Alien is absolutely not 60/40 Alien to world building. Once the eggs are discovered the plot revolves almost entirely around the Alien and how to deal with it. Even Ash's big reveal is pinned to the Alien and his relationship to it.

Sounds like something I may very well pass on.

Alien stories, the ones worth any salt anyway, have always been centered around the Alien itself.

Also so we're clear I absolutely wouldn't mind if this was a subplot through the series.

But any time Hawley is asked about the series he talks about androids and corporations and reinvention. That's what the series is about, that's what the focus is. The Alien never seems to rate a mention, which is a glaring omission if they're driving the plot in any meaningful way.

Perhaps that's worrisome indeed, but I don't mind on principle, but then it's always a question:

Do (the royal) you consider The Cold Forge and Into Charybdis centered around the Alien itself?

If so, then fine.

If not, we have examples of it working.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 06, 2022, 12:18:04 AM
Do (the royal) you consider The Cold Forge and Into Charybdis centered around the Alien itself?

Haven't finished Cold Forge and never read Charybdis.

There are plenty of stories where the Alien isn't necessarily the primary threat, but they're still the driver. Labyrinth is a great example. Church is the main villain, through and through. But he's driven by his relationship to the Alien. Spears is the main villain of Nightmare Asylum, but again, spurred by his desire to tame and manipulate the creature.

But when Hawley speaks there's none of that. There's nothing linking the Alien to the companies or the robotics. The companies are looking into transhumanism and artificial intelligence -- and none if it seems to have anything to do with the Aliens.

That's where I fear this is going to seriously miss the mark.

I'm with SiL on this. Hawley's quotes have been indicating a worrisome pattern. I'm all for waiting to sample the product before judgement, but there have been some odd statements, so far.

"...the primordial past and the artificial intelligence of our future, where both trying to kill us."

What does that even mean? Outside of the prequels, only Ash (and maybe Bishop 2, depending on your perspective of that character's status) was deliberately trying to kill anyone. The 'evil robot' trope just wasn't a thing. Bishop deliberately and very cleverly subverted that and turned it on its head. Call continued that and further cemented robots being altruistic. Even Amanda's game gave us a synthetic who had no David 8-like hidden agendas.

This sounds like something Scott might have influenced, considering his comments about more prequels revolving around supposed (and largely baseless) dangers of AI development.

Synthetics aren't anything to do with immortality. They operate as servants, basically. Why should that somehow be competing with cyborg implants and mental consciousness uploads? They're completely separate fields. Possibly complementary, but not an either/or thing. Why is this being framed as only one of them being able to eventually 'win'?

"It's ultimately a classic science fiction question: Does humanity deserve to survive?"

Save us from this early 2000s nihilistic naval-gazing, please... If you personally feel like the entirety of human civilisation should be condemned to extinction, keep it to yourself. It doesn't make a character interesting to be asking that question, it makes them look somewhere between pointlessly suicidal and latently genocidal.

Hell, just go look up some old You Tube clips of Q debating that very premise against the Picard of old. It's been done to death and gets more boring every time it's presented as somehow refreshing and thought-provoking.

Fluff like this is padding the show doesn't need nor will benefit from. The Alien doesn't have to be on screen all the time, but as pointed out, it (or things directly associated with it) should be in some way what's driving the plot forward.

WHO ARE THE REAL MONSTERS???111 ::)

Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jan 06, 2022, 05:21:53 AM
Save us from this early 2000s nihilistic naval-gazing, please... If you personally feel like the entirety of human civilisation should be condemned to extinction, keep it to yourself. It doesn't make a character interesting to be asking that question, it makes them look somewhere between pointlessly suicidal and latently genocidal.

Like this?

Nice little update.  It's occurring to me that perhaps David is actually Weyland.  He was there as Weyland passed away.  Perhaps a memory transfer was taking place.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jan 06, 2022, 12:18:04 AM
Perhaps that's worrisome indeed, but I don't mind on principle, but then it's always a question:

Do (the royal) you consider The Cold Forge and Into Charybdis centered around the Alien itself?

If so, then fine.

If not, we have examples of it working.

Well, Alien, to be more precise - its biology and reproductive cycle  are very much crucial to the plot of both Alex's books

Spoiler

And one of the main characters turns into a litteral talking Alien

[close]

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Quote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2022, 12:34:27 AM
Haven't finished Cold Forge and never read Charybdis.

Oh crap, so we still have to use spoiler tags ?

They've both been out long enough and God does that sound dumb as bricks.

60% Alien focus, 40% AI focus sounds ok to me.

That's what he's implying, right?

And yet it's excellent, I truly deeply loathed the idea, before Alex White actually executed it- I still think it ought to be restricted to that one scenario. It is set up in such a way to never be replicated, and works not only narratively but thematically in surprising ways, and that in tandem with everything else amounts to what's the best "Alien story" pretty much overall and I know how big a claim that sounds but it's probably true.

All the criticism seems a bit premature.

The stuff he's mentioned sounds good to me, and relevant to the films. I wonder how the alien will play into all of this. He probably just doesn't want to spill everything.

Yeah, I do find it hard to think that none of this would tie into the actual Alien situation at play in the series. Even Alien: Covenant, which is the most in-your-face android/"immortality" narrative of the six films (in terms David's ongoing legacy, and his desire to supersede his creators as 'God'), makes very specific and direct connection between David's ongoing development and the titular Alien.

We only have part of the picture here - broad strokes statements regarding elements of the world-building that are going to be at play in this particular iteration of Alien (no different than, say, if all we knew about before seeing the original film was the nature of the way Weyland-Yutani treat their employees, which we obviously know in hindsight now as having direct correlation to the Alien threat at hand in the film and how it gets on board in the first place). We're still a ways off yet from seeing how these elements of world-building that Hawley is leading us on with actually feed into the narrative and connect in the forefront to the Alien's presence, but that will surely come in time.

Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 06, 2022, 06:04:12 AM
WHO ARE THE REAL MONSTERS???111 ::)

Yeeeeeah... In recent years, the 'Doctor Who' team were repeatedly pulling that trick during interviews and the end results never matched up to the expectations they were hyping. I remember one of the writers trying to cover for what was clearly a lack of budget by declaring something like, "Nothing is scarier than an empty hotel room." And, like... Yeah, that kind of stuff can be made to feel unsettling, given the right elements, but that's a far cry from what they were claiming - and the way it was actually executed felt very pedestrian.

The major example I'll always remember is the pilot for the 'Battlestar Galactica' remake, where Adama, of all possible characters, improvised a speech where he droned on about how maybe humanity didn't deserve to win against during the first war against the cylons and, wow... Did that ever feel like sanctimonious BS. He, of all characters, in the original, was the one who stood for hope. He was the Picard-alike who was always emphatic about how, no matter the odds, humanity deserved a chance to prove it could rise above whatever misdeeds may have been committed in the past by a few. If he felt that way, why not resign from his post as someone in charge of defending humanity from its greatest threats?

Ripley's quote worked really well, because she's not generalising and damning the Marines, Newt, her old crew, etcetera. She mentions species, but it's more of a directed comment against Burke and the corporate (as opposed to Capitalist) mindset he was representative of. Executives, politicians, etcetera, who come to see people as mere statistics and stepping stones for their personal gain.

If we're seeing the same tired old scenes, replayed in countless other films and TV shows, where a character solemnly goes, "Hey... We've advanced this far, but it's been on the back of genocide and slavery and environmental destruction. We're no good... Maybe we deserve to die? Maybe something should exist out there to put an end to us? Maybe we're advancing too far, man! It's a game for fools! Is it truly so wrong for us to demonise those who simply ask for a little wealth redistribution? Is that so bad? Truly?"

Then all around them either nod their heads or give a really weak as f**k counter-argument... No. Just no.

The best example of that philosophy was probably already done in the 1990s, with 'Jurassic Park': "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

It was beautifully delivered, because it was properly thought-provoking. It wasn't saying progress, itself, is a bad thing. It was pointing out that it needs to be done with common sense precautions, not rushing in blindly without weighing up consequences.

So far, Hawley's given a lot of emphasis to saying this essentially will be lecturing us about dangers of AI which will inevitably try to kill us (even though only one out of three definitive droid characters in the original films ever did so - and only because it was deliberately programmed to). We're told it will revolve around financial and/or social inequalities.

What we're not being told is how any of that will relate (cleverly or otherwise) to the actual creatures, themselves. It feels more like he's noticed certain elements from the source material and wants to play around with those, instead of working them into a cohesive structure where it all feels like it'll serve the story, rather than having the story serve those politicised messages.

Maybe it will. Maybe Hawley does have the correct perspective and it's just not coming across well when replying to reporters. We shouldn't get worked up over these comments, by any means. All I'm saying is that we're beginning to see a worrying pattern in quotes delivered over successive interviews and it's in a direction which could be detrimental to this property, if not handled well.

Like SiL, I absolutely wouldn't want to see something which is basically a live-action 'Fireteam Elite', because that would be just hideously shallow. But nor do I want this to be philosophically nihilistic for nihilism's sake. The comments about AI are already starting to feel worryingly along the lines of how Scott mentioned he wanted further prequels to head in.

Why not put an emphasis on, say, the more legitimate and immediate concerns we have, right now, about genetic tampering? Those of us who have looked into what's come out about, say, the Chinese Communist Party's advances in that area (particularly in regards to optimising biological weapon projects to target specific ethnic groups), due to deliberately removing safeguards, can see obvious and timely parallels to what a show like this could be dealing with. Instead, we're just being told that an 'Alien' show will deal with corporate executives, social inequalities, wealth redistribution and why AI will totally kill everyone in the future.

Alan Dean Foster already authored a book which revolved around issues like corporate espionage in this continuity and it wasn't exactly a hit.

I'll wait and see. I hope this isn't the direction it's going in, but there are grounds to feel it could be and that is concerning.

I'm finding myself on the exact opposite side here - the more Hawley talks, the more excited I'm actually getting. I am still very nervous about the Earth setting, and constantly find myself questioning the show's placement in the timeline, but as far as the thematic specifics of the world that Hawley wants to anchor his story in, based on these comments? I dig it.

Every word of it feels 'right' within this universe to me, and contrasting these "cyborg enhancements" and "transhuman downloads" with the nature of the Alien's own ever-evolving biomechanical identity - the contrast between "the primordial past and the artificial intelligence of our future" - rings true to me.

None of Hawley's comments seem to be cynical of the very concept of AI (or the other advancements Hawley listed in this interview) in and of itself, but rather, highly cynical of the corporate systems that are pushing these developments in this universe in the way they've been implemented, and the want-to-be-godlike figureheads striving for immortality/perfection sitting atop those thrones calling the shots. The very same figureheads and corporate structures that would surely love to get their hands on a certain Alien specimen to further develop these advancements...

There is definitely a lot of Ridley's prequel philosophy ringing through Hawley's words here, but in a way that seems to marry some of the prequel concepts even more directly to the corporate dystopia of the original films than we've seen in the past. More than anything, what I'd love to get is a proper Alien: Covenant sequel, but in lieu of that, this thing very much has my ever-growing curiosity.

Two brilliantly and respectfully articulated points above. That's how all online discussions should be.

Bravo the pair of you!

Since everything is in execution, I'll judge once I see the finished product.

The more I hear, the less interested I feel.

But if the Alien parts are sufficiently aesthetic and nasty, I'll put up with the rest of it.

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jan 06, 2022, 08:02:49 PM
The more I hear, the less interested I feel.

But if the Alien parts are sufficiently aesthetic and nasty, I'll put up with the rest of it.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2022, 07:44:53 PM
Since everything is in execution, I'll judge once I see the finished product.

I feel similarly.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 06, 2022, 03:21:13 PM
We only have part of the picture here - broad strokes statements regarding elements of the world-building that are going to be at play in this particular iteration of Alien (no different than, say, if all we knew about before seeing the original film was the nature of the way Weyland-Yutani treat their employees, which we obviously know in hindsight now as having direct correlation to the Alien threat at hand in the film and how it gets on board in the first place).

When you describe an idea, you try to boil it down to fundamentals. What's the focus? If someone asked what Alien was about, you wouldn't start talking about corporations screwing over their employees. It's about space truckers running into a terrifying alien organism in the depths of space. That's the actual focus.

Hawley talking about androids first and Aliens never when asked about his Alien series doesn't jive well. He's using what little time he has to describe the idea to tell us about that - it's clearly what he feels is the heart of the story.

Covenant is actually a great example of what I'm worried about. David and his desire to create is the focus of that story. That's what pushes it forward. The Alien follows from that, and it's one of the reasons it feels so much like a begrudging afterthought when it finally appears.

That's what I feel the series is going to be. The focus is this interplay of companies, and the monsters - should they appear - are little more than pretext to keep the branding and add some drama.

Pretty much.

The more I think about it the more I realize that's actually my biggest issue with Covenant's handling of the Alien. It's a byproduct, a sideshow in its own series.

David didn't set out to create the Alien, he set out to create. The Alien itself has no actual influence on the plot. Anything could come out of that lab and you'll have the same story, because what David makes is secondary to the act of creation in that story.

So the Alien might look cool and kill some people, but it's effectively an Easter egg, a cameo that could be swapped out and change nothing.

When Hawley talks about companies and robotics as the heart of the story, that's what I start picturing. The Alien will be there, sure, but it's clear that it's not that beating heart of the story. It'll feel incidental and unsatisfying just like Covenant.

And anybody who thinks Alien is actually about corporations and not about a monster on a spaceship seriously needs to rewatch the movie.

I agree, Alien Covenant, suffers in my opinion because it does not show why the Alien specifically came out of that lab, everything surrounding it like David's point of view makes perfect sense thematically, but just not narratively.

The biggest issue in that respect's that it's treated as interchangable with the Neomorph, the film says that the Alien's so superior, but never truly shows an instance of that.

You do plan to have aliens in your Alien show, right?

I've said the same thing elsewhere.

That's why it didn't need to be shown and explained in the first place at all.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2022, 07:44:53 PM
Since everything is in execution, I'll judge once I see the finished product.

No you must judge now! and become apart of the forum's douchey artsy aristocrat brigade!

Quote from: acrediblesource on Jan 08, 2022, 12:58:45 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2022, 07:44:53 PM
Since everything is in execution, I'll judge once I see the finished product.

No you must judge now! and become apart of the forum's douchey artsy aristocrat brigade!

They all f**ked off years ago, calm your tits bruh.

Hawley was asked how the world-building was going:

NH: "It's going great. It's going slowly, unfortunately, given the scale of it."

Translation: I've hardly done much at all, I was too busy writing my novel.

NH: "Alien is a fascinating story because it's not just a monster movie; it's about how we're trapped between the primordial past and the artificial intelligence of our future, where both trying to kill us."

Translation: I've spent so little time on it I'll just repeat that cute little epithet I came up with months ago in that other interview. It's kind of snappy, don't you think?

Actually, in his defense, he was asked about the world-building and that's probably all he feels comfortable talking about, secrecy 'n all that. I expect he'd get a severe wrist slapping if he started talking about plot and characters.

TC

There's actually been a surprising amount of character details make their way into the public.

They're all just kinda... Blade Runner-y.

Noah was already pretty open about the alien presence in the show.
He set it on earth so that the aliens' risk of spreading would be even higher.
If you're not expecting multiple aliens after that comment... then ???  ???

Aliens work best when the how and why of their presence is a mystery at the start.
So he's probably more comfortable talking about the human side to not spoil things.

He seems like a competent enough storyteller, then.

this thread is a storm in a teacup.

You're right, but as far as discussion of this show's concerned honestly, I'll take what I can get.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/41625b7097315cde28c1352ec5919edf/968ebe1c9ba01f52-53/s540x810/f24b5918b47f17dd6c3862d9f35a724ff016df31.gifv)

Given the various goals that Hawley has cited as being driving forces for the corporations in the show, and the nature of the Alien itself as a biomechanical entity that bridges the various abstracts that Hawley has talked about into one singular "perfect" being, I also can't imagine any possibility where the endgame human/corporate goal here isn't to derive new tech (or enhance preexisting tech) directly from the Alien.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 09, 2022, 02:20:39 PM
Given the various goals that Hawley has cited as being driving forces for the corporations in the show, and the nature of the Alien itself as a biomechanical entity that bridges the various abstracts that Hawley has talked about into one singular "perfect" being, I also can't imagine any possibility where the endgame human/corporate goal here isn't to derive new tech (or enhance preexisting tech) directly from the Alien.

It is so obvious how come I never saw it...

A new spin on an old franchise idea.

Mfw people get mad the show becomes about either continuing on our own path or utilizing the perfect artificial intelligence in the form of the Alien.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/d79a37851b26e1032a28395695885509/tumblr_p71ql3hgQo1w9yvoqo1_540.gifv)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/07af5a4554b95e9fd497938a6149425e/tumblr_p71ql3hgQo1w9yvoqo2_540.gifv)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/74176a08b091bf1ead0be539f1a26e61/tumblr_p71ql3hgQo1w9yvoqo3_540.gifv)

I'm writing up the news article now, but the name of another company that is looking at immortality in a different way is the Prodigy Corporation.

Interesting...

That was an actual company in the 80's and 90's

QuoteProdigy Communications Corporation (Prodigy Corp., Prodigy Services Co) was an online service from 1984 to 2001 that offered its subscribers access to a broad range of networked services, including news, weather, shopping, bulletin boards, games, polls, expert columns, banking, stocks, travel, and a variety of other features.

Yeah, I was a member.

Now we just need Pan Am as well.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/b3/32/f6b33249d87461422ab8310cc3cf4c35.jpg)

If you ask me it sounds to me noah hawley wants to do altred carbon instead of alien with this talk of AI

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If you ask me it sounds to me noah hawley wants to do altred carbon instead of alien with this talk of AI

Quote from: skhellter on Jan 09, 2022, 12:31:26 PM
Noah was already pretty open about the alien presence in the show.
He set it on earth so that the aliens' risk of spreading would be even higher.
If you're not expecting multiple aliens after that comment... then ???  ???

But are the Aliens driving the plot, or are they just there to provide some drama?

QuoteAliens work best when the how and why of their presence is a mystery at the start.

Start of what, exactly?

If we talk about Alien, for example, we usually mention the fact the space truckers find them on a derelict spaceship upfront. That doesn't spoil anything.

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 09, 2022, 02:20:37 PM
I also can't imagine any possibility where the endgame human/corporate goal here isn't to derive new tech (or enhance preexisting tech) directly from the Alien.

Then maybe mention that the Aliens play into this goal? There's literally no benefit to being coy about that. It doesn't need to be a spoiler, just even casually mentioning that the Aliens have anything to do with what he considers the heart of the story.

Quote from: Dr. Malcolm on Jan 07, 2022, 07:23:37 AM
You do plan to have aliens in your Alien show, right?

News on this front coming later today/tonight.  :P

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 11:55:18 AM

Quote from: Dr. Malcolm on Jan 07, 2022, 07:23:37 AM
You do plan to have aliens in your Alien show, right?

News on this front coming later today/tonight.  :P

Oh crap! Excellent. 8)

https://youtu.be/DbvKsqko5mI (https://youtu.be/DbvKsqko5mI)

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 11:55:18 AM

Quote from: Dr. Malcolm on Jan 07, 2022, 07:23:37 AM
You do plan to have aliens in your Alien show, right?

News on this front coming later today/tonight.  :P

Good! Looking forward to it!

Eagerly awaiting.