The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread

Started by Shasvre, Apr 19, 2011, 10:36:01 PM

Author
The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread (Read 459,382 times)

Biomechanoid

Quote from: JokersWarPig on May 16, 2019, 01:10:38 PM
Quotewhat indicators led them to believe Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen was coming if it wasn't an in film story seed? 

The first thing that comes to mind is killing Sam's brother and father. Even if it was to send a message it was definitely heavy handed, and probably supposed to be a parallel to her father having burned Rickard and Brandon Stark.

And that's an in film story seed.

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4531
Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on May 16, 2019, 01:10:38 PM
Quotewhat indicators led them to believe Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen was coming if it wasn't an in film story seed? 

The first thing that comes to mind is killing Sam's brother and father. Even if it was to send a message it was definitely heavy handed, and probably supposed to be a parallel to her father having burned Rickard and Brandon Stark.

And that's an in film story seed.

The way she killed them.

Not that she killed them. They refused to accept her as the legitimate queen and bend the knee after they lost. Robert would have them killed them, Stannis would have, Robb would have,  everyone in that situation would have and i doubt they expected something else when they refused her.

It's a seed. Alright. It just did not flower into anything :P

Maybe we should skip our seed analogies. they seem to end up more confusing than useful in the end.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 01:22:59 PM

The way she killed them.

Not that she killed them. They refused to accept her as the legitimate queen and bend the knee after they lost. Robert would have them killed them, Stannis would have, Robb would have,  everyone in that situation would have and i doubt they expected something else when they refused her.

It's a seed. Alright. It just did not flower into anything :P

Maybe we should skip our seed analogies. they seem to end up more confusing than useful in the end.

No your seed analogy was perfect. This 100 times over!

Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 12:00:06 PM
Spoiler

At the battle of Winterfell, her growing madness could be reflected as she becomes reckless in her pursuit of the Night King for revenge, she acts irresponsibly and perhaps loses another dragon, or contributes to the death of Jorah, after which she blames herself.  If you couple this with the devestation to her troops during the battle, and the cost of victory, she continues to steadily decline.  After the battle, she begins to feel more and more isolated, the praise going to Jon Snow and Arya for the death of the Night King, whilst her circle has grown smaller.  She slowly begins to withdraw.  But Jon assures her that once they have rested, they will march on King's Landing and remove Cersei.  Dany grows more impatient, and if they have to go the silly may of Euron nuking Rhaegal, and the murder of Missandei, this only adds to her madness.  She wants to attack immediately, and becomes more and more frustrated.  Varys is aware of this, especially ever since Winterfell, he talks to Tyrion about her murder of captured Lannister soldiers, her recklessness at Winterfell which led to Jorah's death, her wish to quickly go after Cersei which cost Rhaegal and Missandei their lives.  Varys is concerned because he cares about Dany, he believed in her at one point, but he has served enough rulers to know when they are beginning to become corrupted.  Tyrion has concern, but he still believes in her.  Varys doesn't try to poison her, he tries to reason with her, but she doesn't want to hear it.  Varys then tells her that he can no longer be a part of her quest, and where Missandei once said Dany would give her a boat and wish her good luck if she asked to leave, Varys is taken and thrown into a cell.

This whole time, Jon has kept the knowledge of his true parentage to himself, but he has become more distant with Dany, refusing intimacy, and this plays into her paranoia.  She feels rejected, the man she loves is pushing her away and it only gets worse.  As the armies march on Kings Landing, Dany doesn't want to wait, and attacks, destroying the fleet, and then the scorpions on the walls.  She then heads for the Red Keep, destroying it completely, but unbeknownst to her, Wildfire has been placed all over the city by Qyburn at Cersei's request.  She destroys the Red Keep but inadvertantly sets off the wildfire, and the results are devestating, destroying most of the city, especially where most of the civilians are hiding behind the walls of the Red Keep.  By the time Jon and the others arrive, they see nothing but devestation.  Realising what she has done, Dany breaks completely

This should have been done over three full seasons, Dany's descent and the corruption of her spirit could have paralleled the redemption of Jamie
[close]

Wow LSOK, some good ideas here!

I do really like this:
Spoiler
This whole time, Jon has kept the knowledge of his true parentage to himself, but he has become more distant with Dany, refusing intimacy, and this plays into her paranoia.  She feels rejected, the man she loves is pushing her away and it only gets worse.
[close]

And I LOVE this:

Spoiler
Dany doesn't want to wait, and attacks, destroying the fleet, and then the scorpions on the walls.  She then heads for the Red Keep, destroying it completely, but unbeknownst to her, Wildfire has been placed all over the city by Qyburn at Cersei's request.  She destroys the Red Keep but inadvertantly sets off the wildfire, and the results are devestating, destroying most of the city, especially where most of the civilians are hiding behind the walls of the Red Keep.
[close]

Or how about change it to:
Spoiler
Cersei unsuspectingly had planned to set her kingdom ablaze as a last resort.  "If I can't rule this kingdom, then no one will!"

And so many innocent women and children die in a spreading flame, Cersei's last laugh as she's consumed by fire too because it's a flame that everyone thinks spread from Dany's Dragon fire. Even Dany believes it.

So many begin to turn on Dany. "What did you do?!" It's too much for Dany to handle and...
[close]

Biomechanoid

Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Like you said, the first half of what I said was relevant while the second wasn't -- but the two halves didn't exist independently, they were a coherent thought. Taking out half of it and focusing on the first half is disingenuous to what I was saying.
I wasn't interested in your coherent thought nor was I cooking up any disingenuous motives, I was interested in those relevant 5 words. Clearly this bothers you, so moving forward, I will simply say most people saw that coming, with no mention of you, okay?

Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
I didn't say they weren't in-film story seeds, so I don't understand why you're posing this question to me.

Thanks for clarification. Question withdrawn to you, hopefully Kurgan will answer.



Shasvre

Shasvre

#4534
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:14:47 AMSeason 8 was written solely for Youtube reaction channels!  The Burlington Bar is the new target audience.  OMG is the new five star rating!

YASSS QUEEN!

SLAY!

...


The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4535
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 16, 2019, 01:25:28 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 01:22:59 PM

The way she killed them.

Not that she killed them. They refused to accept her as the legitimate queen and bend the knee after they lost. Robert would have them killed them, Stannis would have, Robb would have,  everyone in that situation would have and i doubt they expected something else when they refused her.

It's a seed. Alright. It just did not flower into anything :P

Maybe we should skip our seed analogies. they seem to end up more confusing than useful in the end.

No your seed analogy was perfect. This 100 times over!

Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 12:00:06 PM
Spoiler

At the battle of Winterfell, her growing madness could be reflected as she becomes reckless in her pursuit of the Night King for revenge, she acts irresponsibly and perhaps loses another dragon, or contributes to the death of Jorah, after which she blames herself.  If you couple this with the devestation to her troops during the battle, and the cost of victory, she continues to steadily decline.  After the battle, she begins to feel more and more isolated, the praise going to Jon Snow and Arya for the death of the Night King, whilst her circle has grown smaller.  She slowly begins to withdraw.  But Jon assures her that once they have rested, they will march on King's Landing and remove Cersei.  Dany grows more impatient, and if they have to go the silly may of Euron nuking Rhaegal, and the murder of Missandei, this only adds to her madness.  She wants to attack immediately, and becomes more and more frustrated.  Varys is aware of this, especially ever since Winterfell, he talks to Tyrion about her murder of captured Lannister soldiers, her recklessness at Winterfell which led to Jorah's death, her wish to quickly go after Cersei which cost Rhaegal and Missandei their lives.  Varys is concerned because he cares about Dany, he believed in her at one point, but he has served enough rulers to know when they are beginning to become corrupted.  Tyrion has concern, but he still believes in her.  Varys doesn't try to poison her, he tries to reason with her, but she doesn't want to hear it.  Varys then tells her that he can no longer be a part of her quest, and where Missandei once said Dany would give her a boat and wish her good luck if she asked to leave, Varys is taken and thrown into a cell.

This whole time, Jon has kept the knowledge of his true parentage to himself, but he has become more distant with Dany, refusing intimacy, and this plays into her paranoia.  She feels rejected, the man she loves is pushing her away and it only gets worse.  As the armies march on Kings Landing, Dany doesn't want to wait, and attacks, destroying the fleet, and then the scorpions on the walls.  She then heads for the Red Keep, destroying it completely, but unbeknownst to her, Wildfire has been placed all over the city by Qyburn at Cersei's request.  She destroys the Red Keep but inadvertantly sets off the wildfire, and the results are devestating, destroying most of the city, especially where most of the civilians are hiding behind the walls of the Red Keep.  By the time Jon and the others arrive, they see nothing but devestation.  Realising what she has done, Dany breaks completely

This should have been done over three full seasons, Dany's descent and the corruption of her spirit could have paralleled the redemption of Jamie
[close]

Wow LSOK, some good ideas here!

I do really like this:
Spoiler
This whole time, Jon has kept the knowledge of his true parentage to himself, but he has become more distant with Dany, refusing intimacy, and this plays into her paranoia.  She feels rejected, the man she loves is pushing her away and it only gets worse.
[close]

And I LOVE this:

Spoiler
Dany doesn't want to wait, and attacks, destroying the fleet, and then the scorpions on the walls.  She then heads for the Red Keep, destroying it completely, but unbeknownst to her, Wildfire has been placed all over the city by Qyburn at Cersei's request.  She destroys the Red Keep but inadvertantly sets off the wildfire, and the results are devestating, destroying most of the city, especially where most of the civilians are hiding behind the walls of the Red Keep.
[close]

Or how about change it to:
Spoiler
Cersei unsuspectingly had planned to set her kingdom ablaze as a last resort.  "If I can't rule this kingdom, then no one will!"

And so many innocent women and children die in a spreading flame, Cersei's last laugh as she's consumed by fire too because it's a flame that everyone thinks spread from Dany's Dragon fire. Even Dany believes it.

So many begin to turn on Dany. "What did you do?!" It's too much for Dany to handle and...
[close]

Yep, good stuff.

Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
I didn't say they weren't in-film story seeds, so I don't understand why you're posing this question to me.

Thanks for clarification. Question withdrawn to you, hopefully Kurgan will answer.

You got me confused here now with all the back and forth. Which one do you mean?  :P

Biomechanoid

Biomechanoid

#4536
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
Maybe we should skip our seed analogies. they seem to end up more confusing than useful in the end.

Spoiler
Fair enough, we could always use Voodoo's alphabet letter steps or as I just recently called them, indicators. Point is, what indicator(?) element(?) tidbit(?) led most people to believe, including you, as you stated earlier, that Dany was to become a mad Targaryren, before episode 5 even existed. This is the second time I've asked you now and I'm sensing you don't want to answer, so I won't keep asking to maintain harmony.
[close]




Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 12:46:47 PM
Most people didn't see it coming, most people assumed it would happen based on who her father was. 

Spoiler
That's new. Well now we're finally getting somewhere. So I want to make sure I'm clear on this. Never mind that multiple members here have acknowledged they believed Dany would become a mad Targaryren. Never mind the countless blogs listing out the signs they saw she was heading towards madsville. Never mind tens of thousands posters in forums like here and movieforums.com declaring they saw it coming along with posting in-film story examples. Your perception is the millions of viewers, and/or most people, just assumed she would become a mad Targaryen based on her heritage. Is that right?
[close]

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4537
I already answered that for me. I think it's what lead most people to believe it could take a dark turn.

Spoiler
[quote author=The Kurgan link=topic=38441.msg2390659#msg2390659 date=1557992383
There were some seeds planted here and there. She always was unforgiving,resolute and brutal in what she saw as justice and with Barristan warning her that her father "gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end." there was foreshadowing for her to go down the same path as Aerys.
And her whole the throne is mine by birthright\destiny mindset could easily led to disaster.
[/quote]
[close]

^
That's my point A(Seeds).


Point D(Flower) ->
Spoiler
Dany kills a whole city and resorts to  big scale fire and blood.
[close]

IMO they did not use the seeds to grow the flower\(Did not go the way from A over B over C to D)

They wanted the flower(point D). And skipped a believable way to get there.

So we have seeds\point A and flower\point B. The connection between the two is lackluster. The actual story so to say.


You put too much stock in the whole heritage thing.
Spoiler
It may be just the Targaryen version of all Lannisters are lions, all Tyrells fart roses and all bastards have a talent and an urge for treason. Meaning, bullshit. Targaryen madness has never been confirmed in any way to be actually a real thing. The only truly mad Targaryen was Aerys. And even he may not actually been born that way but was formed so by circumstance and tragedies during his life.
[close]







Biomechanoid

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 02:05:49 PM
That's my point A(Seeds).
Point D(Flower)

You're confusing two different conversations we had. The Step A through D conversation was closed out. For a moment I thought you and I were on the same page when you said you had no problem with her becoming a murdering mad queen if they had given just a little more build up. But then you later revealed that really you desired a lot more than just a little more build up, so I ended it with "never mind."

Nothing personal, but I don't think you have an answer or just not grasping the question. But I appreciate your effort and patience, you did offer perspectives that gave me food for thought if that's any consolation. Maybe I will throw the question over at MoFo forum to get their take. Getting outside opinions can never hurt.


The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4539
Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
Maybe we should skip our seed analogies. they seem to end up more confusing than useful in the end.

Spoiler
Fair enough, we could always use Voodoo's alphabet letter steps or as I just recently called them, indicators. Point is, what indicator(?) element(?) tidbit(?) led most people to believe, including you, as you stated earlier, that Dany was to become a mad Targaryren, before episode 5 even existed. This is the second time I've asked you now and I'm sensing you don't want to answer, so I won't keep asking to maintain harmony.
[close]

This was your question right? After I asked you to repeat it above.  How did I not aswer that?

Voodoo Magic

Well this was inevitable. A new petition has hit the news feeds:

Remake Game of Thrones Season 8 with competent writers.
https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4541
It only was a question of time.

And the fitting answer :


Biomechanoid

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 02:39:22 PM
This was your question right? After I asked you to repeat it above.  How did I not aswer that?

Yes that's the question and no you really didn't answer it, you just reverted back to your Step A through D explanation, which has nothing to do with my question. Don't worry about it. I popped the question over at MoFo forum. I want to give them time to answer. If I don't get any nibbles, I might try it here again. Thanks again for your input!

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4543
Dude what? I literally answered that right in the beginning.

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 02:05:49 PM
I already answered that for me. I think it's what lead most people to believe it could take a dark turn.

Spoiler
[quote author=The Kurgan link=topic=38441.msg2390659#msg2390659 date=1557992383
There were some seeds planted here and there. She always was unforgiving,resolute and brutal in what she saw as justice and with Barristan warning her that her father "gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end." there was foreshadowing for her to go down the same path as Aerys.
And her whole the throne is mine by birthright\destiny mindset could easily led to disaster.
[close]

BigDaddyJohn

The show was doomed the moment they announced 7 and 6 episodes for the last two seasons. We all felt it was a poor decision.

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